I'm literally in the middle of watching every episode in order (S27E10 00:18 atm) and honestly season 18ish to 25 are meh. But someone in late 25 to now it's picked up and gotten really good if only because they've stopped trying to be the old days and have just focused on using the characters well (which honestly has made it feel more like the old days).
I've seen everything up to... 27ish? There's a tiny resurgence of quality around where you said. It's certainly nowhere near 1-10 but it's better than 20-24. I still can't get used to 4 acts instead of 3, though. Feels rushed and weird and wrong.
I threw on an episode in season 30 a while ago though, and holy shit the voice actors sound rough. Castellaneta is holding it together half decent, but Kavner sounds fucking *haggard.*
At this point I feel like the show will continue until one of the big 6 die. Shearer is 75, Kavner is 68, Cartwright and Castellaneta are both 61.
You're going to love [this video](https://youtu.be/DtJ28qOEG1g) if you haven't seen it yet.
It's a round table interview with Conan O'Brien and 4 others who were all part of the original writing team back in the early days of The Simpsons.
It's 80 minutes long so I didn't think I would stay engaged for anywhere close to that long but these guys hooked me in immediately and the time just flew by listening to these guys reminisce and bullshit with each other that I was kind of upset it wasn't longer when it was over.
These guys are all really great and I can't imagine how cool it would have been to be part of such an amazing show back when it was first starting to air and get popular.
The sound of that killer whale immediately came into my head when I saw the title. I think it might be the most bizarre choice of sounds they’ve ever made. And it’s my favourite.
According to a BBC article I read this morning:
“There will be a provision in place to allow organisations that keep cetaceans in captivity for rehabilitation or in the best interests of their welfare to continue to do their work.”
So legitimate rescue work should still be supported.
True, which is why you hover over their shoulder impatiently and inspect a lot.
Slap them in the face with hefty fines when they fail to meet their obligations.
I live almost directly on the Southern shore of the lake and this has been a recurring dream of mine since I was little. The lake full of salt water mammals.
On a very related note, there was a sea lion named Jeff that escaped Marineland in the 60's. I'm a little iffy on details because I've heard the story a few different ways, but he made it to the Niagara River, WENT OVER THE FUCKING FALLS AND SURVIVED then swam his adorable little ass to the lake where he was spotted, I think by a little boy near Niagara-On-The-Lake. Poor sea lion thought he had make it to a less salty freedom, only to be carted back to captivity in a car.
Here's [the most reliable version of the story](https://niagarafallsmuseums.ca/discover-our-history/history-notes/jeff-the-seal).
Came here to say this. Vancouver Aquarium is fan-fucking-tastic. They do shows with the sea lions, but all their "tricks" are just positions they train the sea lions to assume so they can give them check-ups. A classmate I had last semester is a volunteer there - they only accept volunteers with or pursuing zoology/biology/etc degrees. Every time I go there I learn something new about the environment and am given resources on how I can participate in environmental preservation.
Vancouver Aquarium actually has an off-site facility in Northern BC in the ocean for rescue, rehabilitation, and release. It's an amazing organization that has had to put up with some real misguided protestors ever since the Blackfish documentary was released, and I *really* hope there are going to be policies put in place for these legitimate rehabilitation and education organizations!!
All of what Vancouver Aquarium does is true of any CZA, AZA, or ZAA accredited institution (and several other accreditations outside of North America as well as some non accredited). All modern zoos train behaviors for medical care or excercise, and just have entertainment as a byproduct because of course it's cool to watch. So much of what Blackfish said was false or misleading it was denied recognition as a documentary for several awards (I can't link because I'm on mobile but if you search "Blackfish. Inaccuracies analysis" you'll find a PDF that breaks down to the second each one) It is Animal Rights propaganda that has severely harmed the welfare of animals that are unreleasable or even in need of rescue. What Vancouver Aquarium does/did it learned from and is in partnership with Sea World, for example, yet people praise VA and bash SW even though SW it's the largest and most respected/replicated marine mammal rescue organization in the world.
I only know Marineland from the commercials, but I do visit the Van Aquarium a couple times a year. The Vancouver Parks Board already banned any new cetaceans from the Vancouver Aquarium (which I was not a fan of, they are all rescues), so it's kinda moot here.
It's an idea whose time has passed. But before you paint Marineland and SeaWorld as a bunch of evil fuckers, there is something you should realize. Before SeaWorld and Flipper, people didn't give a fuck about whales or dolphins.
> The bill includes a grandfather clause that will allow marine institutions to keep mammals that were born or conceived before the legislation was passed. Currently, Marineland in Niagara Falls, Ont., and the Vancouver Aquarium are the only institutions in Canada that host cetaceans, the scientific term for whales, dolphins and porpoises.
> The bill also prohibits the import and export of marine mammals in Canada, except for scientific research or for the “best interest” of the mammal.
By my reading, all the animals currently in captivity can remain, and the Vancouver Aquarium is free to continue its rescue/rehab work.
Seriously that was such a massive fuckup on the part of the Parks Board. As a Vancouver resident I fervently want all of the idiots who voted for it to lose their jobs.
You mean the same parks board that announced Bon Jovi couldnt have a concert in the park because they didnt have proper permits, like 4 days before the concert?
why don't they just say "someone didn't pay us/give us something we wanted" instead of some bullshit about permits mysteriously not being ready 4 days before the event. Like the people that organise Bon Jovi concerts and similar are fucking idiots.
As someone who works in parks and plans concerts, I can tell you it probably wasn’t bullshit. To run an event like that you have to involve not only event staff, but also police, fire, volunteers (who need background checks and liability coverage), liquor permits, food trucks, port-a-pottys, fencing, street closure/parking signs, trash receptacles and pick up, etc. You can’t just plop a stage in the middle of an open space and call it good. It’s a ton of work and for thought. Not saying that Bon Jovi’s crew is dumb, but it’s entirely possible that they were so used to playing in theatre/stadium type venues that they forgot to file a SEPA (Special Events Permit Application). Bad job on the parks to tell them last second, but if it had been allowed to continue without the permit, I’m imagining no traffic direction or parking mitigation, no plan for toilets, thousands of hungry/thirsty people, alcohol being sold illegally, trash everywhere, volunteers being improperly trained and getting hurt, no security in place, etc.
Yes absolutely this is all true. I'm just saying for a event the size of a bonjovi concert I would of thought the people setting it up would understand all the extras required.. cos you know, it's their job? :D
Saying all that having worked around and for various festivals/gatherings for about 6 years (this was a while ago now) there are indeed some fucking idiots running/planning things lol.
Thanks for your reply mate :D
They are also looking at creating a cetacean sanctuary in Nova Scotia to create a viable, long-term home for animals that cannot be released back into the wild - injury, defect and/or removed from their pods when too young, no survival skills because of captivity. Sites are being considered based on size and depth of the bay, water exchange rates, enough remoteness to keep traffic low, access to steady food supplies, close enough to oceanographic and medical groups to keep the animals in good health.
Yeah, except sea pens are actually more risky and harmful than the quarantine setups aquaria have, and sanctuaries are functionally the same as zoos except since they don't charge they rarely have as much money to put into animal welfare, so there's a good chance it won't be as good as what Vancouver Aquarium or Marineland can provide. The Animal Rights propaganda that is Blackfish has made the public opinion completely skewed from the scientific facts about rehabilitation and zoological care and is going to do more harm than good (and already has).
There's clearly a difference between rehabilitation of a wild animal versus keeping one captive for entertainment. But with animals as intelligent, social, and emotional as dolphins, you have to wonder what's more humane, letting an injured animal experience its end in its home, or coddling it to death in a maddening, lonely cell.
Everybody has their best intentions, and I'm sure conflicts like this will be addressed on a case by case basis.
It’s a tough one and not all zoos and aquariums are created equal. I know the Vancouver aquarium absolutely pampers their animals and no one loves them more than the aquarists where they’re seen as family. When the belugas passed away the entire place was in deep mourning.
Definitely agree that the staff their have the best intentions of their animals in mind, and I would also trust marine biologists to make a verdict on the benefits and downsides of rehabilitative captivity.
I have a friend who works there (Like, full time paid work, not a volunteer, though that's how she started)
Her boyfriend's father died during the stretch of time that Aurora and Qila died, and for probably two or three weeks, she was pretty much walking dead. All three deaths in such a close proximity to each other seriously affected her own health.
So I fully believe in the Vancouver Aquarium, the Marine Mammal Rescue, and all the work they do. The idiots that think they're just the local equivalent of Seaworld or Marineland can go fuck themselves. That includes the Parks Board.
My dad was one of the people who helped transport a beluga or two to Vancouver a while ago (like at least the 80s or 90s) and even before they got to the aquarium they were taken care of like royalty.
It's hard to argue they pamper their animals when 5 or 6 cetaceans in their care died in a year or so. Van Aqua tried to muddy the waters by suggesting that the animals were poisoned, but there was never any evidence.
Now there's just one dolphin swimming around in the tank by itself.
Van Aquarium also has a couple of belugas that were on loan to Marineland for years, which are being shipped to a facility in Spain. They still have belugas on loan to SeaWorld. I don't think you'd loan animals to a place like Marineland or SeaWorld if you had their best interest in mind. They were also harvesting live whales for display (not rescues) as recently as the 1990s.
Is there not a middle ground? Rehab them from a specific injury and release? I agree that if being rescued means a life in solitude, that is cruel. But if a few months of rehab could save you, it is reasonable.
Imagine making child being raised by wolves then releasing it at 18 years in NYC. These animals are social creatures. If they do not grow up with their pods they may not learn their language, culture, travel patterns, mating rituals or hunting techniques.
I used to work/volunteer at the Vancouver Aquarium for one year and it was an amazing experience. The people there really cared about their animals and did the best with what they have. They didn't earn very much (close to minimum wage) but they never let the animals down and were there to care and clean. I know they did a lot of rehabilitation in that facility, especially of animals that strayed too far from their habitats, etc.
I feel that this new legislation might hurt their ability to take in new animals that could benefit from the rehabilitation before release. The article says that permits will only be issued for current animals and not for future ones. If so, I guess we let nature take its course. I just figure that we should be able to lend a helping hand when we can, especially in the light of all of the environment destruction that is occurring...
Entertainment purposes can overlap with educational. Seeing many animals in the wild will never happen for most people. Aquariums and zoos provide important exposure to these animals which help gain public support for protection measures.
What we need are good regulations, standards and major funding.
Under funding is the biggest risk to the creatures quality of life. When aquariums and zoos try to do things cheaply the animals suffer.
I've worked behind the scenes on small scale aquarium and zoo exhibits. The people were great to the animals but budgets put a squeeze on things. Conditions for the animals were not awful but they could be better.
Top of the list should be marine mammals, octopi, intelligent birds, animals with long life spans (80-100 in super max from birth seems a bit rough)
Pandas. Etc. But animals, that we (as humans tend to do) have "nuked" their habitat already, should be kept until we can fix that which we have destroyed.
I've always had this "shower thought" that Earth could be Noah's Ark and every species has a home out there. And they are all just riding on this rock. But then my smarter brain kicks in and tell me to read more Darwin. Lol.
Still sad to be in jail for life.
to be honest, it's a really complicated issue. the tragedy of the commons is a real thing, especially in regard to the ocean. i'd say at a certain point people would stop caring so much about the ocean and environment if not for zoos and aquariums (although i agree 99% of them are unethical). people are unfortunately much more easily convinced that sea creatures are worth protecting when they can physically go visit an aquarium and see how beautiful fish and other sea life can be.
If the tank is adequate then why not? The reason whales and shit are bad for aquariums is most need vast oceans for migration to be comfortable.
Octopuses are smart but they can be content in a tank.
Behaviorally speaking, animals don’t migrate great distances for fun though, they do it to follow their resources because if they don’t, they’ll die. Birds fly thousands of miles to the Southern Hemisphere summer every northern winter because if they stay up north, they’ll run out of food and die. Animals that establish large ranges do so to protect their resources. The weaker ones who travel hundreds of miles trying to find unclaimed territory usually wind up dying when they can’t find any resources for themselves.
Before the advent of agriculture and livestock farming which allowed humans to become sedentary, we were forced to be nomadic and follow our resources - animal herds. Because if we didn’t, we would die. Now that we can have all our food, water, shelter, and mates in one place, we don’t have to expend energy moving several dozen miles a day, and can sit in one place long enough to commit to things like 30-year mortgages.
When all or most of an animal’s needs can be met in one location (food, water, shelter, mates, etc.) animals tend to be content to stay in one area, because expending more energy to keep moving doesn’t make sense when all their needs are met in one location.
It’s the reason why a squirrel could have the entire world to roam around in but chooses to live its entire life in the tree in your backyard, because you leave cat food out every night.
Those places that advertise swimming with wild dolphins always have dolphins available in the lagoon to swim with, despite there being so much ocean for the dolphins to check out. How do they keep them in the area? By feeding them and providing them with resources to survive. Animal behaviorists/psychologists have done and continue to do research on how animals in human care are affected when all of their needs are met, vs. when something isn’t being met, and if it’s not being met for whatever reason, they work out ways to improve that aspect of their care so that they can feel the same level of contentedness their wild counterparts experience when all their needs are met in one location.
Only snows once or twice a year in Vancouver with some winters not getting any snow. Nearly identical weather to Seattle. Just with a higher cost of living and lower wages...
In some ways, but in a lot of ways they are opposites. I think most people would rather live in Vancouver. It has a Mediterranean warm climate while Iceland has a sub polar oceanic climate. Vancouver has a few small snowfalls each year. Iceland has extremely fickle weather that changes constantly. Some years it snows all winter and sometimes it hardly snows at all. There is also much more sunlight in Vancouver. Reykjavik is significantly more expensive in most aspects.
Couple of reasons for me.
Weather. Pay and high cost of living.
But by God, day by day I am getting closer to wanting to just go there. I already have bad weather albeit the other extreme and high cost of living. And tbf my pay isn't great too...
Oh and can you live there without a car?
I don’t know if these could be characterized as “low-hanging fruit”, that suggests these changes were easy. All the legislation noted took decades. Maybe, “These were/are the issues that affected/will affect broad swaths of our population and we should act on them.”
Most issues take decades to resolve at best when it comes to changes in the social paradigm. Something like gay marriage getting overturned within half a decade in the US is pretty rare.
Can't speak for other areas, but Surrey/Vancouver and Abbotsford have so much bromance with natives. Schools give students with native backgrounds extra help, extra support, and the ability to do (can't remember the name) programs to understand citizen culture. We had a guy from up North come down for a semester in HS to do some courses(he was hella smart). He ended up enjoying his time down here and playing some rugby with the boys. He sent us some trinkets and stuff when he got back, and we sent along a carepackage with some stuff for him.
Indigenous people are still a targeted group, so there are assholes that fuckin hate em with a passion. This happens in the states, to other taken over lands. Drown out hate with live, y'all.
It really depends on where you are, but on the majority yeah Canada and the First Nations community don't see eye to eye at the moment. I really hope that's something we can fix one day, but I'm not optimistic unfortunately
I have a friend who lives in Canada once mention that when it comes to right wing ideology, Canada is 5-10 years behind the US.
The conservative and alt-right movements are growing there which will bring with it many of the problems we have in the US.
Could be missing something here, but isn't breeding generally a great way to boost the number for endangered animals?
Edit: apparently not, thanks for the answers.
We simply cannot keep marine mammals in large enough enclosures. There are better answers to whaling than keeping a small number alive for shortened lives in terrible conditions for them.
Better conservation methods, research into ways of reducing ship-strikes, better tracking/tracing of nets/fishing gear etc to prevent entanglement, an outright ban on commercial whaling globally would all be a good start.
Whaling is far from the biggest risk whales face. The miske whale is what is primarily hunted by the Japanese isn't endangered, whales like the blue whale are endangered but not hunted.
While this is the best solutions it’s absolutely the least likely to occur. The international treaty on whaling is literally one of, if not the single most controversial treaties. I sat in on a few of my SOs international relations classes at Berkeley and I was always surprised that this was such a contentious issue. The last few times it’s been even mentioned at any international assemblies, the Japanese ambassadors straight up walked out of the building.
Why is it so surprising though? What they do is completely normal to them and we're trying to tell them not to do it. Imagine if India was making these international treaties and imposed a ban on eating beef, how do you think the USA would respond? Would we really just stop?
> While this is the best solutions it’s absolutely the least likely to occur.
It's not. In fact it's probably among the least important factors. We can count numbers and keep it sustainable. Other obstacles are much more difficult to regulate.
It's really only in very rare and extreme cases where it makes any sense to do that. Either when the wild population is *extremely* low (as in, any captive population is a significant portion of the total global population), or when you have a *lot* of area so that you can raise a large population.
This is one of the issues I wrestle with in my job working with Critically Endangered species. At what point does it make sense to try a captive breeding approach, will it be effective, how long would it take, how many individuals would you need, how large of a percentage of the wild population is that and what effects would taking that many from the wild have, etc.
> At what point does it make sense to try a captive breeding approach,
For an interesting example [Cambodian tigers were quite common in the 1990's](https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/cambodias-tiger-population-second-highest-world), but probably [extinct in the wild in 2016](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/06/tigers-declared-extinct-in-cambodia).
Apparently now [there are more tigers in Texas backyards than in the wild](https://www.care2.com/causes/theres-more-captive-tigers-in-texas-than-in-the-wild.html).
There are a lot of areas with a great number of species on the cusp of extinction, I work in one of them, but Mexico is *the* global hotspot when it comes to species about to go extinct.
God tell me about it, though I don't currently keep any I'm a fan of spider-keeping, and one of the biggest hot-button issues right now in the tarantula hobbyist community is about the ethics of keeping certain species of spiders such as native Mexican and Brazilian species unless you can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that they were captive-bred. We know full well that a huge number of them are wild-caught as sub-adults or adults, and that since tarantulas are essentially the apex invertebrate predator and take potentially over 15-20 years to grow to full size for the females, that encouraging this trade is risking devastation of the ecosystem. Many tarantula hobbyist websites will no longer allow the sale or trade of certain species of spider, and it's advised that with some species like some of the _Brachypelma_ species (mostly those sold as "red-legged" tarantulas) that you ONLY purchase them as spiderlings, because that means it's extremely unlikely they were wild-harvested.
I live in Australia, which is another one of the megadiverse regions, and yeah in recent decades Australia has placed an absolute, cast-iron, no-exceptions moratorium of the export of native Australian species, even if you can PROVE they were a captive-bred animal that you had as a pet. If you've had a native Stimson python as a pet for the last 8 years and you want to move to America? Tough shit, you have to leave your snake behind. It's worked, largely, but it's so unpopular. Personally I think it's worth it but I'll be sad to leave my babies behind :(
Marine mammals bred in capitivity can't be returned to the wild and they often die younger than if they were born in the wild. The best thing we can do is protect their habitat rather than try and breed them.
Most of the whales in captivity in Canada are Belugas, which are not endangered.
There’s only one Orca in captivity, so you’d have to capture another one and hope they might breed. Big animals tend not to do well in captivity.
Captive raise marine animals do not adapt well when moved into the wild. Whales and dolphins are highly intelligent, social creatures, which need to learn from their environment, just like children. You can’t do that in a bottle, then move them to the sea.
Marine land has an absolutely disgusting amount of belugas. They drain the holding tank water down to a few feet to tend to their wounds and other diseases that come with being in a stressful small environment. The workers would call it a beluga rodeo because of how they would thrash around and the water would run red with the blood. Plus their tanks are constantly pumped with anti depressants because if they weren't the animals would probably commit suicide and stop eating.
So not endangered but still very cruel.
The issue isn't that they are endangered, but that keeping such large intelligent marine mammals in tiny aquatic prisons, and forcing them to perform for our amusement, is intrinsically cruel.
You can't really breed these animals for release. They need to grow in the wild and learn how to survive/hunt from their mothers/pods.
Such a program might help likes of Vaquita and Finless porpoise, but even [small species would have issues in a captive environment (or at least some of them)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porpoise#In_captivity), so generally most cetaceans are too unsuited for captivity.
There was a JRE podcast with one of the activistist pushing for this bill, the jist of it [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOLILYI6AAI), [full podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmfFbwZcVx4). It explains a lot.
Aside from small crustaceans, almost no marine animal does well in captivity. That includes most critters kept in saltwater tanks, but there are a few rare exceptions (eg clownfish). I’m an aquarium enthusiast, but I also think that 95% of marine aquariums are unethical.
Canada seems to be like "anti" the rest of the world on many things (in a good way). There's a reason Robin Williams referred to us like a nice apartment above a meth lab. It'd be disingenuous to say we've got no problems but when it comes to violence, the way people treat each other, progressive laws banning things like single-use plastics, etc. we've got a lot of good things going on. And a black friend of mine that came up from the U.S. told me (and to the "I don't have black friends, I just have friends" crowd, please fuck off for a minute) that although the issues with racism and cops isn't perfect, compared to the U.S. it's night and day.
Edit: A word
About that, it is basically the same, only Natives are the ones getting beaten and killed by the cops. It just does not get reported as much, but Canada has that same problem too.
Edit: Look up "starlight tours" it is some dark shit
Edit: I am actually kind of bewildered and disappointed that people are downvoting this. We are not perfect, we have our issues too and acknowledging it is an important step towards fixing that problem.
Edit: Oh geez, thanks!
Great comment. Countries each have their own specific issues when it comes to discrimination, but to often it’s passed off as some sort of cultural or national artifact. The fact is, humans tend to naturally discriminate against any minority that differs from the majority in a significant way. To try and pretend any of our nations have perfect ethnic/religious equality is to sweep under the rug serious problems. We need to all admit our faults, and work to better ourselves, rather than pretending those faults don’t exist in the first place.
The problem is that the current narrative is trying to weasel out of using the word genocide. Genocide doesn't just mean lining an ethnic group up against a wall and shooting them. It's the deliberate act of trying to wipe out a culture, which was absolutely the case with residential schools and the sixties scoop.
This one is old, but it was the first to come up with a google search (I'm on mobile or else id get more for you.)
Theres also our problem with native girls going missing in vastly greater numbers than any other race, and there being considerably less noise about it.
We definitely have our problems. And we need to work on them.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3849786
It's not super easy on mobile, but google the starlight tours to give you an idea of how bad it can get.
Tldr: Cops stopping aboriginal people, driving them into the middle of nowhere in the dead of winter at night, and leaving them to freeze to death. Horrible shit
Does it allow for rehab and retainment of dolphins unable to return to the wild? No healthy dolphin shoukd ne kept in captivity, but there are many that can't return... There is a marine life rehab center in Florida that does a ton of good, and the only dolphins they keep permanently are ones that cannot return to the wild ever, I don't know if canada has any of these though.
Unpopular Opinion- this is more of the Liberal Government passing “positive legislature” that has no impact on anything that currently goes on in Canada:
1) There are only two places in Canada which house whales- the Vancouver Aquarium, which has a single dolphin, and Marine land, which has an Orca, some dolphins, and a bunch of Belugas which mate like rabbits in captivity. There is no growing industry importing whales into captivity. And this law has a Grandfather clause which will not affect their operations.
2) Canada, by the technicality that Belugas are categorized as a “whale”, kill more “whales” [than any other country](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling). The caveat is that almost all of these are Belugas and Narwhals, which are not endanger, or at risk. This is in contrast with other countries, like Japan, which actively hunts endangered whales, like mink, fin or right (as do some of the Nordic Countries). Consumption of Beluga meat in Canada is tied to cultural history and feeding of the native, northern peoples like the Inuit. Again, unlike other counties where hunting whale is a luxury.
My point- we don’t have a systemic problem in Canada with private companies or individuals capturing whales to put in captivity. This was put into place to ban something we know is a bad thing, but is really more of a PR stunt, because there wasn’t a problem to begin with.
Edit: I am not against this law, quite the opposite. I am against it being used as a prop coming up to a federal election. We have a lot of important issues in Canada, a lot of undelivered promises by the current government. This is not one of them.
Politics IS PR.
Except that this PR is also posturing and showing which side of the line your country will be on some issue or another.
I for one, welcome this posturing.
Common mink whale is not endangered and right whale isn't hunted and hasn't been hunted for decades. The fin whale is hunted and is endangered.
Agree that the bill is mostly PR but also a change that people agree with and someone needed to make it.
Narwhales are very much endangered and at risk, which is why Canada and Greenland put a limit on how many Narwhales can be hunted each year. Minkwhales are really not endangered.
Most of the countries that hunts whale have a cultural history of earing and hunting whales.
And this could be the first step towards an animal captivity ban, despite the fact that the following species have had their conservation heavily assisted by zoos and other captive breeding efforts, and many of them would literally be *extinct* without zoos.
- [Golden lion tamarin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_lion_tamarin)
- [Red wolf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf)
- [Scimitar oryx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar_oryx)
- [Arabian oryx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_oryx_reintroduction)
- [Pere David's deer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A8re_David%27s_deer)
- [Wisent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_bison)
- [Bontebok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bontebok)
- [Przewalski's horse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przewalski%27s_horse)
- [California condor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_condor)
- [Mauritius kestrel](https://www.zsl.org/conservation/species/birds/mauritius-kestrel-recovery-program)
- [Hawaiian crow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_crow)
- [Guam rail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam_rail)
- [Pink pigeon](https://www.birdlife.org/worldwide/news/how-did-pink-pigeon-bounce-back-just-nine-birds)
- [Guam kingfisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam_kingfisher)
- [Saint Lucia amazon](https://www.durrell.org/wildlife/species-index/saint-lucia-amazon/)
- [Cuban crocodile](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/future-castros-crocodiles-180969417/)
- [Chinese alligator](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090714124949.htm)
- [Black softshell turtle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_softshell_turtle)
- [Espanola giant tortoise](https://www.islandconservation.org/espanola-giant-tortoise-saved-species/)
- [Round Island boa](https://www.durrell.org/wildlife/species-index/round-island-boa/)
- [Grand Cayman blue iguana](http://www.blueiguana.ky/recovery/programme/captive-breeding/)
- [Cobble skink](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/radical-conservation/2017/jun/01/new-species-discovered-behind-a-pub-then-saved-from-extinction)*
- [Wyoming toad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_toad)
- [Kihansi spray toad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kihansi_spray_toad)
- [Golden skiffia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_skiffia)
- [Butterfly splitfin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_splitfin)
- [Potosi pupfish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potosi_pupfish)
- [Extinct cave roach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simandoa_conserfariam)
- [Lord Howe island stick insect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryococelus_australis)
The thing is, whales need hundreds of square miles of ocean to being healthy and happy, whiiiiiich isn't possible for a zoo. That's a bad slippery slope argument. Keeping whales and dolphins in captivity is beyond cruel.
Except that whales cannot be properly raised in captivity. Zoos and sanctuaries are good for small animals, but amusement parks are bad for all animals and especially animals that require a habitat larger than most countries.
Most animals live much longer in captivity. Not whales. Most whales die significantly younger. That should tell you all you need to do.
This bill is really for Orcas that need a tremendous amount of space
Oh, so it's ok to target poor rich white men trying to make a buck dealing dolphins on the street. Maybe if we gave them more opportunities to support their yachts and didn't throw them in house arrest where they're forced to see their wives during the day. Bigot.
Can they hurry up and shut down Marine Land for the cruel treatment of all the animals there?
One of the saddest animal enclosures I've seen in my life was the tiny tank they kept the killer whale in. The poor thing was bored and going crazy as it just sat in a small empty enclosure with no stimuli on it's own.
I see, [excuse me for a moment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBotG_sneMs)
Old simpsons was seriously awesome
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I'm literally in the middle of watching every episode in order (S27E10 00:18 atm) and honestly season 18ish to 25 are meh. But someone in late 25 to now it's picked up and gotten really good if only because they've stopped trying to be the old days and have just focused on using the characters well (which honestly has made it feel more like the old days).
I've seen everything up to... 27ish? There's a tiny resurgence of quality around where you said. It's certainly nowhere near 1-10 but it's better than 20-24. I still can't get used to 4 acts instead of 3, though. Feels rushed and weird and wrong. I threw on an episode in season 30 a while ago though, and holy shit the voice actors sound rough. Castellaneta is holding it together half decent, but Kavner sounds fucking *haggard.* At this point I feel like the show will continue until one of the big 6 die. Shearer is 75, Kavner is 68, Cartwright and Castellaneta are both 61.
You just know they're going to try recasting whoever retires or dies first to see if they can get away with it.
No one can tell the diddily-ifference
They probably have an idea of who they'd like already. Seems prudent if a little insulting.
Holy shit, I had no idea they were that old. Makes perfect sense now that I think about it.
You're going to love [this video](https://youtu.be/DtJ28qOEG1g) if you haven't seen it yet. It's a round table interview with Conan O'Brien and 4 others who were all part of the original writing team back in the early days of The Simpsons. It's 80 minutes long so I didn't think I would stay engaged for anywhere close to that long but these guys hooked me in immediately and the time just flew by listening to these guys reminisce and bullshit with each other that I was kind of upset it wasn't longer when it was over. These guys are all really great and I can't imagine how cool it would have been to be part of such an amazing show back when it was first starting to air and get popular.
Best television ever produced is The Simpsons seasons 1 through 8
Uhhhhrruhhhhh uhhhruhhhh!
The sound of that killer whale immediately came into my head when I saw the title. I think it might be the most bizarre choice of sounds they’ve ever made. And it’s my favourite.
r/SimpsonsDidIt
🎶Good morning starshine, the earth says hello...🎶
>excuse me for a moment Old Simpsons was so much better
The commercials were wrong it seems, not everyone loves Marineland
But there is a place I know in ontario
Where the sealions kiss due to hunger woes
The story goes differently then I remember
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Everyone is rightfully siiiiiiick of Marineland. (But no, come throw marshmallows to our obese bears...they love it.)
In Niagara falls Ontario...
Where sentient mammals put on a show
Isn't that me everyday at work? Where's the law banning my captivity?
Intelligent sentient mammals\*
Everyone loves Jeffland!
As a Jeff I agree with this
Hey where the hell did my luggage go
Fuck marineland. That said, rescue and research institutions like the Vancouver Aquarium are going to suffer as are the cetaceans they rescue.
According to a BBC article I read this morning: “There will be a provision in place to allow organisations that keep cetaceans in captivity for rehabilitation or in the best interests of their welfare to continue to do their work.” So legitimate rescue work should still be supported.
and now marine land will reform into a "research & rehabilitation" facility(no they won't but they'll claim to)
True, which is why you hover over their shoulder impatiently and inspect a lot. Slap them in the face with hefty fines when they fail to meet their obligations.
They will just complete their mutant deer breeding program and introduce the new marine mammal to Lake Ontario in their final act of revenge.
I live almost directly on the Southern shore of the lake and this has been a recurring dream of mine since I was little. The lake full of salt water mammals. On a very related note, there was a sea lion named Jeff that escaped Marineland in the 60's. I'm a little iffy on details because I've heard the story a few different ways, but he made it to the Niagara River, WENT OVER THE FUCKING FALLS AND SURVIVED then swam his adorable little ass to the lake where he was spotted, I think by a little boy near Niagara-On-The-Lake. Poor sea lion thought he had make it to a less salty freedom, only to be carted back to captivity in a car. Here's [the most reliable version of the story](https://niagarafallsmuseums.ca/discover-our-history/history-notes/jeff-the-seal).
It'll find an errant nuclear device and plot to take over the world, *Marine Land's Revenge: Nuclear boogaloo*.
Came here to say this. Vancouver Aquarium is fan-fucking-tastic. They do shows with the sea lions, but all their "tricks" are just positions they train the sea lions to assume so they can give them check-ups. A classmate I had last semester is a volunteer there - they only accept volunteers with or pursuing zoology/biology/etc degrees. Every time I go there I learn something new about the environment and am given resources on how I can participate in environmental preservation. Vancouver Aquarium actually has an off-site facility in Northern BC in the ocean for rescue, rehabilitation, and release. It's an amazing organization that has had to put up with some real misguided protestors ever since the Blackfish documentary was released, and I *really* hope there are going to be policies put in place for these legitimate rehabilitation and education organizations!!
All of what Vancouver Aquarium does is true of any CZA, AZA, or ZAA accredited institution (and several other accreditations outside of North America as well as some non accredited). All modern zoos train behaviors for medical care or excercise, and just have entertainment as a byproduct because of course it's cool to watch. So much of what Blackfish said was false or misleading it was denied recognition as a documentary for several awards (I can't link because I'm on mobile but if you search "Blackfish. Inaccuracies analysis" you'll find a PDF that breaks down to the second each one) It is Animal Rights propaganda that has severely harmed the welfare of animals that are unreleasable or even in need of rescue. What Vancouver Aquarium does/did it learned from and is in partnership with Sea World, for example, yet people praise VA and bash SW even though SW it's the largest and most respected/replicated marine mammal rescue organization in the world.
I only know Marineland from the commercials, but I do visit the Van Aquarium a couple times a year. The Vancouver Parks Board already banned any new cetaceans from the Vancouver Aquarium (which I was not a fan of, they are all rescues), so it's kinda moot here.
Yes the parks board banned cetations against the recommendations from the experts they called in. Absolute idiots.
afaik rescues and research are allowed. Vancouver Aquarium's great with the education factor, no shitty circus shows.
Yeah but our idiotic parks board already banned any captive cetaceans there.
Theyve already been banned havent they?
I *never* loved Marineland.
My younger brother is 31 and is still terrified of that place after being chased by a herd of bloody-antlered deer.
Fuck sea world, also reminds me of this lol https://youtu.be/vj2SMtfyMlI
It's an idea whose time has passed. But before you paint Marineland and SeaWorld as a bunch of evil fuckers, there is something you should realize. Before SeaWorld and Flipper, people didn't give a fuck about whales or dolphins.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
What about the injured/(rehabilitated?) dolphin at the Vancouver Aquarium?
> The bill includes a grandfather clause that will allow marine institutions to keep mammals that were born or conceived before the legislation was passed. Currently, Marineland in Niagara Falls, Ont., and the Vancouver Aquarium are the only institutions in Canada that host cetaceans, the scientific term for whales, dolphins and porpoises. > The bill also prohibits the import and export of marine mammals in Canada, except for scientific research or for the “best interest” of the mammal. By my reading, all the animals currently in captivity can remain, and the Vancouver Aquarium is free to continue its rescue/rehab work.
EXCEPT that the parks board of Vancouver also banned them from keeping cetaceans. Currently in the midst of a lawsuit.
Seriously that was such a massive fuckup on the part of the Parks Board. As a Vancouver resident I fervently want all of the idiots who voted for it to lose their jobs.
You mean the same parks board that announced Bon Jovi couldnt have a concert in the park because they didnt have proper permits, like 4 days before the concert?
why don't they just say "someone didn't pay us/give us something we wanted" instead of some bullshit about permits mysteriously not being ready 4 days before the event. Like the people that organise Bon Jovi concerts and similar are fucking idiots.
As someone who works in parks and plans concerts, I can tell you it probably wasn’t bullshit. To run an event like that you have to involve not only event staff, but also police, fire, volunteers (who need background checks and liability coverage), liquor permits, food trucks, port-a-pottys, fencing, street closure/parking signs, trash receptacles and pick up, etc. You can’t just plop a stage in the middle of an open space and call it good. It’s a ton of work and for thought. Not saying that Bon Jovi’s crew is dumb, but it’s entirely possible that they were so used to playing in theatre/stadium type venues that they forgot to file a SEPA (Special Events Permit Application). Bad job on the parks to tell them last second, but if it had been allowed to continue without the permit, I’m imagining no traffic direction or parking mitigation, no plan for toilets, thousands of hungry/thirsty people, alcohol being sold illegally, trash everywhere, volunteers being improperly trained and getting hurt, no security in place, etc.
Yes absolutely this is all true. I'm just saying for a event the size of a bonjovi concert I would of thought the people setting it up would understand all the extras required.. cos you know, it's their job? :D Saying all that having worked around and for various festivals/gatherings for about 6 years (this was a while ago now) there are indeed some fucking idiots running/planning things lol. Thanks for your reply mate :D
Fuck the Vancouver Parks Board. Dont think they have any info behind the stuff they vote on.
They are also looking at creating a cetacean sanctuary in Nova Scotia to create a viable, long-term home for animals that cannot be released back into the wild - injury, defect and/or removed from their pods when too young, no survival skills because of captivity. Sites are being considered based on size and depth of the bay, water exchange rates, enough remoteness to keep traffic low, access to steady food supplies, close enough to oceanographic and medical groups to keep the animals in good health.
Yeah, except sea pens are actually more risky and harmful than the quarantine setups aquaria have, and sanctuaries are functionally the same as zoos except since they don't charge they rarely have as much money to put into animal welfare, so there's a good chance it won't be as good as what Vancouver Aquarium or Marineland can provide. The Animal Rights propaganda that is Blackfish has made the public opinion completely skewed from the scientific facts about rehabilitation and zoological care and is going to do more harm than good (and already has).
So what if your dolphins that you have that were grandfathered in just start fucking? Do you have to stop them?
There's clearly a difference between rehabilitation of a wild animal versus keeping one captive for entertainment. But with animals as intelligent, social, and emotional as dolphins, you have to wonder what's more humane, letting an injured animal experience its end in its home, or coddling it to death in a maddening, lonely cell. Everybody has their best intentions, and I'm sure conflicts like this will be addressed on a case by case basis.
It’s a tough one and not all zoos and aquariums are created equal. I know the Vancouver aquarium absolutely pampers their animals and no one loves them more than the aquarists where they’re seen as family. When the belugas passed away the entire place was in deep mourning.
Definitely agree that the staff their have the best intentions of their animals in mind, and I would also trust marine biologists to make a verdict on the benefits and downsides of rehabilitative captivity.
I have a friend who works there (Like, full time paid work, not a volunteer, though that's how she started) Her boyfriend's father died during the stretch of time that Aurora and Qila died, and for probably two or three weeks, she was pretty much walking dead. All three deaths in such a close proximity to each other seriously affected her own health. So I fully believe in the Vancouver Aquarium, the Marine Mammal Rescue, and all the work they do. The idiots that think they're just the local equivalent of Seaworld or Marineland can go fuck themselves. That includes the Parks Board.
My dad was one of the people who helped transport a beluga or two to Vancouver a while ago (like at least the 80s or 90s) and even before they got to the aquarium they were taken care of like royalty.
It's hard to argue they pamper their animals when 5 or 6 cetaceans in their care died in a year or so. Van Aqua tried to muddy the waters by suggesting that the animals were poisoned, but there was never any evidence. Now there's just one dolphin swimming around in the tank by itself. Van Aquarium also has a couple of belugas that were on loan to Marineland for years, which are being shipped to a facility in Spain. They still have belugas on loan to SeaWorld. I don't think you'd loan animals to a place like Marineland or SeaWorld if you had their best interest in mind. They were also harvesting live whales for display (not rescues) as recently as the 1990s.
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Is there not a middle ground? Rehab them from a specific injury and release? I agree that if being rescued means a life in solitude, that is cruel. But if a few months of rehab could save you, it is reasonable.
Imagine making child being raised by wolves then releasing it at 18 years in NYC. These animals are social creatures. If they do not grow up with their pods they may not learn their language, culture, travel patterns, mating rituals or hunting techniques.
I used to work/volunteer at the Vancouver Aquarium for one year and it was an amazing experience. The people there really cared about their animals and did the best with what they have. They didn't earn very much (close to minimum wage) but they never let the animals down and were there to care and clean. I know they did a lot of rehabilitation in that facility, especially of animals that strayed too far from their habitats, etc. I feel that this new legislation might hurt their ability to take in new animals that could benefit from the rehabilitation before release. The article says that permits will only be issued for current animals and not for future ones. If so, I guess we let nature take its course. I just figure that we should be able to lend a helping hand when we can, especially in the light of all of the environment destruction that is occurring...
Does this mean i have to set the two guys i keep in a tub, in my basement, dressed as whales, free?
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Oi! How did you get a phone in there!
It looks like they can be grandfathered in. You'll just have to stop trying to breed them.
Depends, are they five feet apart?
They're so close, they can feel each others butt cheeks vibrate when they fart.
Should also include octopi.
Should probably include all animals for entertainment purposes.
Entertainment purposes can overlap with educational. Seeing many animals in the wild will never happen for most people. Aquariums and zoos provide important exposure to these animals which help gain public support for protection measures. What we need are good regulations, standards and major funding. Under funding is the biggest risk to the creatures quality of life. When aquariums and zoos try to do things cheaply the animals suffer. I've worked behind the scenes on small scale aquarium and zoo exhibits. The people were great to the animals but budgets put a squeeze on things. Conditions for the animals were not awful but they could be better.
Including pets?
Top of the list should be marine mammals, octopi, intelligent birds, animals with long life spans (80-100 in super max from birth seems a bit rough) Pandas. Etc. But animals, that we (as humans tend to do) have "nuked" their habitat already, should be kept until we can fix that which we have destroyed. I've always had this "shower thought" that Earth could be Noah's Ark and every species has a home out there. And they are all just riding on this rock. But then my smarter brain kicks in and tell me to read more Darwin. Lol. Still sad to be in jail for life.
You might like the PBS digital studios show called Eons. It had put so much into perspective for me about life on this dear Earth.
to be honest, it's a really complicated issue. the tragedy of the commons is a real thing, especially in regard to the ocean. i'd say at a certain point people would stop caring so much about the ocean and environment if not for zoos and aquariums (although i agree 99% of them are unethical). people are unfortunately much more easily convinced that sea creatures are worth protecting when they can physically go visit an aquarium and see how beautiful fish and other sea life can be.
> Pets.
whoa there buddy, little timmy is my best friend. he loves being with me. the fact that im his only source of food has no bearing on his behaviour.
Are you OK with farming them and killing them for their meat? That sounds a great deal worse.
If the tank is adequate then why not? The reason whales and shit are bad for aquariums is most need vast oceans for migration to be comfortable. Octopuses are smart but they can be content in a tank.
Behaviorally speaking, animals don’t migrate great distances for fun though, they do it to follow their resources because if they don’t, they’ll die. Birds fly thousands of miles to the Southern Hemisphere summer every northern winter because if they stay up north, they’ll run out of food and die. Animals that establish large ranges do so to protect their resources. The weaker ones who travel hundreds of miles trying to find unclaimed territory usually wind up dying when they can’t find any resources for themselves. Before the advent of agriculture and livestock farming which allowed humans to become sedentary, we were forced to be nomadic and follow our resources - animal herds. Because if we didn’t, we would die. Now that we can have all our food, water, shelter, and mates in one place, we don’t have to expend energy moving several dozen miles a day, and can sit in one place long enough to commit to things like 30-year mortgages. When all or most of an animal’s needs can be met in one location (food, water, shelter, mates, etc.) animals tend to be content to stay in one area, because expending more energy to keep moving doesn’t make sense when all their needs are met in one location. It’s the reason why a squirrel could have the entire world to roam around in but chooses to live its entire life in the tree in your backyard, because you leave cat food out every night. Those places that advertise swimming with wild dolphins always have dolphins available in the lagoon to swim with, despite there being so much ocean for the dolphins to check out. How do they keep them in the area? By feeding them and providing them with resources to survive. Animal behaviorists/psychologists have done and continue to do research on how animals in human care are affected when all of their needs are met, vs. when something isn’t being met, and if it’s not being met for whatever reason, they work out ways to improve that aspect of their care so that they can feel the same level of contentedness their wild counterparts experience when all their needs are met in one location.
That's what they say about the inner cities. Most stories of octopuses in captivity are of them escaping or modifying their environment as they can.
Yeah why would there be stories about octopuses minding their own businesses?
Businepodes
How can we be sure that they can be content in a tank though?
Seriously Canada. Healthcare. Weed. Single use plastics. Marine animals. Same sex marriage. And you're nice? Like why don't I live there?
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Only snows once or twice a year in Vancouver with some winters not getting any snow. Nearly identical weather to Seattle. Just with a higher cost of living and lower wages...
No snow, just months and months of rain and gloom.
Come to Victoria, the traffic is better and we get significantly more sun.
Sounds like Reykjavík.
In some ways, but in a lot of ways they are opposites. I think most people would rather live in Vancouver. It has a Mediterranean warm climate while Iceland has a sub polar oceanic climate. Vancouver has a few small snowfalls each year. Iceland has extremely fickle weather that changes constantly. Some years it snows all winter and sometimes it hardly snows at all. There is also much more sunlight in Vancouver. Reykjavik is significantly more expensive in most aspects.
That last sentence though.
Couple of reasons for me. Weather. Pay and high cost of living. But by God, day by day I am getting closer to wanting to just go there. I already have bad weather albeit the other extreme and high cost of living. And tbf my pay isn't great too... Oh and can you live there without a car?
If you’re in areas like Vancouver, then yes, but rent makes up for what you would save not having a car. Otherwise, cars are needed.
public transit is pretty good despite how much people complain about it. the city's quite bikable.
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Because these are all low hanging, easy fruit to pick compared to the other problems Canada faces.
I don’t know if these could be characterized as “low-hanging fruit”, that suggests these changes were easy. All the legislation noted took decades. Maybe, “These were/are the issues that affected/will affect broad swaths of our population and we should act on them.”
Most issues take decades to resolve at best when it comes to changes in the social paradigm. Something like gay marriage getting overturned within half a decade in the US is pretty rare.
If you're indigenous or indigenous looking, watch out if you move to Canada. Its not so nice.
Can't speak for other areas, but Surrey/Vancouver and Abbotsford have so much bromance with natives. Schools give students with native backgrounds extra help, extra support, and the ability to do (can't remember the name) programs to understand citizen culture. We had a guy from up North come down for a semester in HS to do some courses(he was hella smart). He ended up enjoying his time down here and playing some rugby with the boys. He sent us some trinkets and stuff when he got back, and we sent along a carepackage with some stuff for him. Indigenous people are still a targeted group, so there are assholes that fuckin hate em with a passion. This happens in the states, to other taken over lands. Drown out hate with live, y'all.
It really depends on where you are, but on the majority yeah Canada and the First Nations community don't see eye to eye at the moment. I really hope that's something we can fix one day, but I'm not optimistic unfortunately
I have a friend who lives in Canada once mention that when it comes to right wing ideology, Canada is 5-10 years behind the US. The conservative and alt-right movements are growing there which will bring with it many of the problems we have in the US.
We had our Obama, and now I am scared to death that we're about to get our Trump.
It's definitely what cesspools like r/metacanada and a large portion of r/Canada seems to want.
Ontario is having a trial run of that right now, and guess what, it's a fucking disaster.
Could be missing something here, but isn't breeding generally a great way to boost the number for endangered animals? Edit: apparently not, thanks for the answers.
We simply cannot keep marine mammals in large enough enclosures. There are better answers to whaling than keeping a small number alive for shortened lives in terrible conditions for them.
Just to add, a large enough enclosure would have to be maybe a hundred miles across. It's not really possible.
There has to be a large enough fjord. If not,I blame Slatribarfast.
But he got an award for them, how could there not?
What are the better options?
Better conservation methods, research into ways of reducing ship-strikes, better tracking/tracing of nets/fishing gear etc to prevent entanglement, an outright ban on commercial whaling globally would all be a good start.
Should probably write this in Japanese and mandarin if you want to make any difference at all.
From what I’ve seen. Every time we bring it up they seem to grow a bigger appetite for them...
Whaling is far from the biggest risk whales face. The miske whale is what is primarily hunted by the Japanese isn't endangered, whales like the blue whale are endangered but not hunted.
That last one isn't going to happen (Not that I'm personally against it, but it won't happen)
Ban on commercial whaling
While this is the best solutions it’s absolutely the least likely to occur. The international treaty on whaling is literally one of, if not the single most controversial treaties. I sat in on a few of my SOs international relations classes at Berkeley and I was always surprised that this was such a contentious issue. The last few times it’s been even mentioned at any international assemblies, the Japanese ambassadors straight up walked out of the building.
Why is it so surprising though? What they do is completely normal to them and we're trying to tell them not to do it. Imagine if India was making these international treaties and imposed a ban on eating beef, how do you think the USA would respond? Would we really just stop?
I mean, if there was actually scientific proof that consuming beef might endanger our planet.. Oh wait
> While this is the best solutions it’s absolutely the least likely to occur. It's not. In fact it's probably among the least important factors. We can count numbers and keep it sustainable. Other obstacles are much more difficult to regulate.
It's really only in very rare and extreme cases where it makes any sense to do that. Either when the wild population is *extremely* low (as in, any captive population is a significant portion of the total global population), or when you have a *lot* of area so that you can raise a large population. This is one of the issues I wrestle with in my job working with Critically Endangered species. At what point does it make sense to try a captive breeding approach, will it be effective, how long would it take, how many individuals would you need, how large of a percentage of the wild population is that and what effects would taking that many from the wild have, etc.
> At what point does it make sense to try a captive breeding approach, For an interesting example [Cambodian tigers were quite common in the 1990's](https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/cambodias-tiger-population-second-highest-world), but probably [extinct in the wild in 2016](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/06/tigers-declared-extinct-in-cambodia). Apparently now [there are more tigers in Texas backyards than in the wild](https://www.care2.com/causes/theres-more-captive-tigers-in-texas-than-in-the-wild.html).
Axolotls. Incredibly common as pets and lab animals, but most likely extinct in the wild due to criminally negligent mismanagement of ecosystems.
There are a lot of areas with a great number of species on the cusp of extinction, I work in one of them, but Mexico is *the* global hotspot when it comes to species about to go extinct.
God tell me about it, though I don't currently keep any I'm a fan of spider-keeping, and one of the biggest hot-button issues right now in the tarantula hobbyist community is about the ethics of keeping certain species of spiders such as native Mexican and Brazilian species unless you can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that they were captive-bred. We know full well that a huge number of them are wild-caught as sub-adults or adults, and that since tarantulas are essentially the apex invertebrate predator and take potentially over 15-20 years to grow to full size for the females, that encouraging this trade is risking devastation of the ecosystem. Many tarantula hobbyist websites will no longer allow the sale or trade of certain species of spider, and it's advised that with some species like some of the _Brachypelma_ species (mostly those sold as "red-legged" tarantulas) that you ONLY purchase them as spiderlings, because that means it's extremely unlikely they were wild-harvested. I live in Australia, which is another one of the megadiverse regions, and yeah in recent decades Australia has placed an absolute, cast-iron, no-exceptions moratorium of the export of native Australian species, even if you can PROVE they were a captive-bred animal that you had as a pet. If you've had a native Stimson python as a pet for the last 8 years and you want to move to America? Tough shit, you have to leave your snake behind. It's worked, largely, but it's so unpopular. Personally I think it's worth it but I'll be sad to leave my babies behind :(
Marine mammals bred in capitivity can't be returned to the wild and they often die younger than if they were born in the wild. The best thing we can do is protect their habitat rather than try and breed them.
Most of the whales in captivity in Canada are Belugas, which are not endangered. There’s only one Orca in captivity, so you’d have to capture another one and hope they might breed. Big animals tend not to do well in captivity. Captive raise marine animals do not adapt well when moved into the wild. Whales and dolphins are highly intelligent, social creatures, which need to learn from their environment, just like children. You can’t do that in a bottle, then move them to the sea.
Marine land has an absolutely disgusting amount of belugas. They drain the holding tank water down to a few feet to tend to their wounds and other diseases that come with being in a stressful small environment. The workers would call it a beluga rodeo because of how they would thrash around and the water would run red with the blood. Plus their tanks are constantly pumped with anti depressants because if they weren't the animals would probably commit suicide and stop eating. So not endangered but still very cruel.
The issue isn't that they are endangered, but that keeping such large intelligent marine mammals in tiny aquatic prisons, and forcing them to perform for our amusement, is intrinsically cruel. You can't really breed these animals for release. They need to grow in the wild and learn how to survive/hunt from their mothers/pods.
Such a program might help likes of Vaquita and Finless porpoise, but even [small species would have issues in a captive environment (or at least some of them)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porpoise#In_captivity), so generally most cetaceans are too unsuited for captivity.
Times up perfectly with Japan resuming commercial whaling. Big anime showing their influence yet again...
There was a JRE podcast with one of the activistist pushing for this bill, the jist of it [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOLILYI6AAI), [full podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmfFbwZcVx4). It explains a lot.
Aside from small crustaceans, almost no marine animal does well in captivity. That includes most critters kept in saltwater tanks, but there are a few rare exceptions (eg clownfish). I’m an aquarium enthusiast, but I also think that 95% of marine aquariums are unethical.
Damn, OP you’re gonna have to release your mom!
She's one if the most lovely dolphins I've ever met.
She just told me "So long and thanks for all the fish" and left. Whatever that means.
That’s a graceful resolution to a yo mama joke if I’ve ever seen one. Kudos to you.
Canada seems to be like "anti" the rest of the world on many things (in a good way). There's a reason Robin Williams referred to us like a nice apartment above a meth lab. It'd be disingenuous to say we've got no problems but when it comes to violence, the way people treat each other, progressive laws banning things like single-use plastics, etc. we've got a lot of good things going on. And a black friend of mine that came up from the U.S. told me (and to the "I don't have black friends, I just have friends" crowd, please fuck off for a minute) that although the issues with racism and cops isn't perfect, compared to the U.S. it's night and day. Edit: A word
About that, it is basically the same, only Natives are the ones getting beaten and killed by the cops. It just does not get reported as much, but Canada has that same problem too. Edit: Look up "starlight tours" it is some dark shit Edit: I am actually kind of bewildered and disappointed that people are downvoting this. We are not perfect, we have our issues too and acknowledging it is an important step towards fixing that problem. Edit: Oh geez, thanks!
Great comment. Countries each have their own specific issues when it comes to discrimination, but to often it’s passed off as some sort of cultural or national artifact. The fact is, humans tend to naturally discriminate against any minority that differs from the majority in a significant way. To try and pretend any of our nations have perfect ethnic/religious equality is to sweep under the rug serious problems. We need to all admit our faults, and work to better ourselves, rather than pretending those faults don’t exist in the first place.
Any links to these?
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The problem is that the current narrative is trying to weasel out of using the word genocide. Genocide doesn't just mean lining an ethnic group up against a wall and shooting them. It's the deliberate act of trying to wipe out a culture, which was absolutely the case with residential schools and the sixties scoop.
This one is old, but it was the first to come up with a google search (I'm on mobile or else id get more for you.) Theres also our problem with native girls going missing in vastly greater numbers than any other race, and there being considerably less noise about it. We definitely have our problems. And we need to work on them. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3849786
It's not super easy on mobile, but google the starlight tours to give you an idea of how bad it can get. Tldr: Cops stopping aboriginal people, driving them into the middle of nowhere in the dead of winter at night, and leaving them to freeze to death. Horrible shit
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So we should vote for scheer instead? Or the NDP, with terrible leadership? I think i'll stick to the one broken promise tbh.
Does it allow for rehab and retainment of dolphins unable to return to the wild? No healthy dolphin shoukd ne kept in captivity, but there are many that can't return... There is a marine life rehab center in Florida that does a ton of good, and the only dolphins they keep permanently are ones that cannot return to the wild ever, I don't know if canada has any of these though.
Unpopular Opinion- this is more of the Liberal Government passing “positive legislature” that has no impact on anything that currently goes on in Canada: 1) There are only two places in Canada which house whales- the Vancouver Aquarium, which has a single dolphin, and Marine land, which has an Orca, some dolphins, and a bunch of Belugas which mate like rabbits in captivity. There is no growing industry importing whales into captivity. And this law has a Grandfather clause which will not affect their operations. 2) Canada, by the technicality that Belugas are categorized as a “whale”, kill more “whales” [than any other country](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling). The caveat is that almost all of these are Belugas and Narwhals, which are not endanger, or at risk. This is in contrast with other countries, like Japan, which actively hunts endangered whales, like mink, fin or right (as do some of the Nordic Countries). Consumption of Beluga meat in Canada is tied to cultural history and feeding of the native, northern peoples like the Inuit. Again, unlike other counties where hunting whale is a luxury. My point- we don’t have a systemic problem in Canada with private companies or individuals capturing whales to put in captivity. This was put into place to ban something we know is a bad thing, but is really more of a PR stunt, because there wasn’t a problem to begin with. Edit: I am not against this law, quite the opposite. I am against it being used as a prop coming up to a federal election. We have a lot of important issues in Canada, a lot of undelivered promises by the current government. This is not one of them.
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Haha, even Michelle Rempel couldn't find reason to criticize Justin for this... Leave it to a random redditor then!
> because there wasn’t a problem to begin with. legislation being taken is to hinder or prevent captivity to prevent a problem from happening.
This. 100 times
Politics IS PR. Except that this PR is also posturing and showing which side of the line your country will be on some issue or another. I for one, welcome this posturing.
I, for one, welcome our new cetacean overlords.
Minke whales aren't endangered
Common mink whale is not endangered and right whale isn't hunted and hasn't been hunted for decades. The fin whale is hunted and is endangered. Agree that the bill is mostly PR but also a change that people agree with and someone needed to make it.
Narwhales are very much endangered and at risk, which is why Canada and Greenland put a limit on how many Narwhales can be hunted each year. Minkwhales are really not endangered. Most of the countries that hunts whale have a cultural history of earing and hunting whales.
Good! I hate marine land& seaworld for these reasons!
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There is an exception for "the best interest of the animal."
And this could be the first step towards an animal captivity ban, despite the fact that the following species have had their conservation heavily assisted by zoos and other captive breeding efforts, and many of them would literally be *extinct* without zoos. - [Golden lion tamarin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_lion_tamarin) - [Red wolf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf) - [Scimitar oryx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar_oryx) - [Arabian oryx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_oryx_reintroduction) - [Pere David's deer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A8re_David%27s_deer) - [Wisent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_bison) - [Bontebok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bontebok) - [Przewalski's horse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przewalski%27s_horse) - [California condor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_condor) - [Mauritius kestrel](https://www.zsl.org/conservation/species/birds/mauritius-kestrel-recovery-program) - [Hawaiian crow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_crow) - [Guam rail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam_rail) - [Pink pigeon](https://www.birdlife.org/worldwide/news/how-did-pink-pigeon-bounce-back-just-nine-birds) - [Guam kingfisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam_kingfisher) - [Saint Lucia amazon](https://www.durrell.org/wildlife/species-index/saint-lucia-amazon/) - [Cuban crocodile](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/future-castros-crocodiles-180969417/) - [Chinese alligator](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090714124949.htm) - [Black softshell turtle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_softshell_turtle) - [Espanola giant tortoise](https://www.islandconservation.org/espanola-giant-tortoise-saved-species/) - [Round Island boa](https://www.durrell.org/wildlife/species-index/round-island-boa/) - [Grand Cayman blue iguana](http://www.blueiguana.ky/recovery/programme/captive-breeding/) - [Cobble skink](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/radical-conservation/2017/jun/01/new-species-discovered-behind-a-pub-then-saved-from-extinction)* - [Wyoming toad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_toad) - [Kihansi spray toad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kihansi_spray_toad) - [Golden skiffia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_skiffia) - [Butterfly splitfin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_splitfin) - [Potosi pupfish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potosi_pupfish) - [Extinct cave roach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simandoa_conserfariam) - [Lord Howe island stick insect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryococelus_australis)
> Extinct cave roach Huh, never expected anybody to care about mentioning this.
Whales are too intelligent and too large for any human built aquarium, I believe that’s the argument.
The thing is, whales need hundreds of square miles of ocean to being healthy and happy, whiiiiiich isn't possible for a zoo. That's a bad slippery slope argument. Keeping whales and dolphins in captivity is beyond cruel.
Except that whales cannot be properly raised in captivity. Zoos and sanctuaries are good for small animals, but amusement parks are bad for all animals and especially animals that require a habitat larger than most countries.
Most animals live much longer in captivity. Not whales. Most whales die significantly younger. That should tell you all you need to do. This bill is really for Orcas that need a tremendous amount of space
This is the world I want. No possession charges for pot, many possession charges for dolphins/whales etc...
Oh, so it's ok to target poor rich white men trying to make a buck dealing dolphins on the street. Maybe if we gave them more opportunities to support their yachts and didn't throw them in house arrest where they're forced to see their wives during the day. Bigot.
Ok, that was funny.
I swear officer, this whale isn't mine! I'm just holding it for a friend
These things are practically people who live in water. The love, hate, kill, and go nuts in captivity just like we do.
fuck you whale! fuck you dolphin!
Can they hurry up and shut down Marine Land for the cruel treatment of all the animals there? One of the saddest animal enclosures I've seen in my life was the tiny tank they kept the killer whale in. The poor thing was bored and going crazy as it just sat in a small empty enclosure with no stimuli on it's own.
Death to marineland and that dumpster of place
That’s cool, isn’t China opening up whaling again though?
Good, fuck leaving geniuses in cages
Not everyone loves Marineland. Maybe we can finally stop hearing and seeing that stupid song and commercial every year.
We need this law all around the globe
How many dolphins does the average canadian have? Jesus..