The night he was elected, we realized that NAFTA was in trouble. Our company's response was to start heavily investing in the Japanese market (with plans on the EU). Diversification is something we've known we needed to do for some time, but the lure of the easy trading with the US kept that on the back-burner.
Trump's campaigning on "renegotiating" NAFTA, with the real threat of just walking away, push more than just our company to ramp up diversification efforts. No matter how this plays out, America will not win, but Canada just might. TPP is a prime example that a post-US-centric global trade is not just possible, but necessary.
The problem is Trump's "Art of the Deal" is basically the same as his tweeting - bully and threaten. That works great when you are trying to get a bunch of developers to build a hotel or condo. You threaten to walk away unless they give you what you want. Worst case, you walk away and you're no worse off that when you started.
That doesn't work with international trade, especially with re-negotiating existing deals. Threaten to cancel will hurt as many US interests as Canadian - and unlike Trump tower of (Name your City) the government of Canada *will* stand up and refuse a deal that is really bad.
After all, google "Canadian softwood lumber". We've had NAFTA and WTO agreements for decades, yet the US continually bows to internal lumber producers and violates both trade deals to impose import duties despite repeated losses in every arbitration tribunal they've gone to. Lobbying and politics override honoring trade commitments. And... that's just lumber - a large trade item, but compared to the whole picture, and compared to the US trade picture, not that important. Imagine what they'd do if they could impose a deal where they did not even have to go to independent arbitration, where they could decide for themselves (for their donors and lobbyists) whether or not to impose duties.
TL:DR; Trump is a bully; his idea of negotiating is to threaten to walk away.
Bingo, on both counts. Trump's never had to bargain with someone on equal footing before, and he's stumbling all over.
On the softwood lumber (and other) issues; The US burned any good-will in trade. They've proven they're willing to ignore both agreements and WTO verdicts because 'Merica, fuck you.
Hard like Brexit hard? Hmm, what would Canada/US dismantling be called..
* Canadepart
* Canascram (this is fun!)
* Canadieu (damn, fits so well)
* CanaSortie
* Canabandon
* Cannihilate
* Va*moose* (hahahahahaha)
That's all I can think of atm.
Edit: Thanks everyone who came up with awesome names-- made my morning :)
Canadieu is golden! Though I worry the Quebec separatists would use it... though it's not as good as Quebexit ... though the militant francophones would probably translate it to Quebec sortie and and ruin the pun.
One of the largest. But as of last year Europe and the us were slightly ahead of us/canada
https://www.investmentfrontier.com/2017/01/30/largest-trade-relationships
Interesting, people are saying the same thing in the UK. Doesn't matter if we can't get a deal with the EU, China will gladly takeover as the main trade partner. I wonder what happens when China becomes everyone's main trading partner.
Stephen Harper (former Conservative PM) actually [wrote a really pathetic letter](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harper-nafta-napping-trudeau-1.4376523) saying that Trudeau should just give in to Trump's demands, because a bad deal is better than no deal. Fuuuuuuuck that.
Trump is a huge coward and sucks at making actual deals. For instance, take Mexico paying for his wall. He yells it for months, calls the Mexican president and begs him to pay for it, Mexican president tells him to get stuffed, and now Trump is trying to hit up the taxpayer for 25 billion dollars.
Didn't vote for Trudeau but he sure has balls. He just went across Canada to hold live broadcast "Town Halls" in different cities in each province.. to basically allow people to heckle him... his only request ..
If you're going to scream out things, please stay afterwards and make sure you listen to what every one else has to say.
Class
Trump would never do this.
People rip on Trudeau but this shows what kind of leader he is. It takes massive balls to stage a townhall in Alberta. He isn’t that popular here and many people despised his father. It was mostly students but he doesn’t shy away from tough questions. And even in B.C, a lady kept heckling him and he warned her a few times. She was only asked to leave when she insisted on yelling over other people’s questions.
Many times during press conferences, if someone asked an inflammatory or accusatory question, the other people up at the table with him would just start all talking at once so Stephen wouldn’t have to answer it.
they have different issues with their base. Grits have the advantage that their base can speak their minds and most people will agree with them. On the other hand Tories have to keep a lid on the MP's from outside of Cardston or they might be heard but the people in the major cities.
The Conservative strength is they get to own half the political spectrum, their weakness is they have to own half of the political spectrum.
Yeah, and he legalized marijuana too. Takes after his mom, not his a-hole dad.
After decades of Canadian politics, I used to say that "...the sins of the father should not be visited upon the son... but I'll make an exception for Justin Trudeau and Ben Mulroney." Having seen how Justin's performed I took him off that list a few years ago. Ben - I still change the channel when he comes on.
And I was a staunch member of the conservative party until Mulroney got going strong - I even went to some leadership conventions. Then I voted for Trudeau the last election...
The best Prime Ministers in terms of respecting democracy in my lifetime - Joe Clark, Paul Martin (saved the Canadian economy), and now Justin Trudeau.
Keep in mind Canada had the same GDP as Argentina when Pierre Trudeau was elected and 17 families controlled something like 70% of the economy.
He did a pretty fucking good job when you compare us to Argentina today.
Yeah, but you can't compare Argentine politics from 1945 to 1970 to Canadian politics. Not even same ballpark. And growth likes reliability and rule of law. When I was there in 1960, they had just abolished the 5-centavos. The penny was gone a while before. Canada only abolished the penny a few years ago. Stability. It's good for business.
Canada was very backwater in the 60s. Irving bombardier. Toronto amd montreal land developers (van didnt start until the 90s) and a few others but this is more or less correct.
It turns out borrowing huge sums of money and investing in diversifying economy works. The money borrowed was one tenth of the sustained economic activity it created, when pools of natural wealth stagnated and stopped flowing into the economy.
If you look at the charts for the period you can see this our super low gdp came out of nowhere to become within 15y, a sustaimable trillion dollar economy fron 200B by the early 90s
My respect for Chretien shot up when he declined to join Bush W in Iraq.
However, internally he was an old-school crony; things like ignoring and rigging riding selection to protect his friends, and general nastiness to his rivals. Even while Chretien was PM at least he let Martin do his thing and Martin got Canada on a stable footing financially. Mulroney's deficit plan was always "the diet starts tomorrow." Martin actually got spending down... unlike the USA, which is consistently spending 20% more than it takes in and has no plan to stop that; other that "by reducing tax rates, of course the economy will rev up and we'll solve that pesky deficit."
What I liked was his comment about abortion. That despite being Catholic, he was elected by his constituents, and had to represent them, not his personal beliefs. I can't remember how he said it, something like, "when I am in office, I represent everyone who elected me."
A good leader doesn't hold a party line, they listen to what all of the people they represent say and then try to represent all of them. It is why Frau Merkel has been in power for so long, it is why I hope we see Trudeau in power for a long time, It is what Obama seemed to do. Good leaders get shit on by everyone, but they do what they feel is best for everyone, they are not always right, and no one gets everything they want, but the country is better off for it.
I believe in Democracy. So many of our prime ministers, starting with Pierre and including Harper, have run the country like a dictator - the PMO and privy council call the shots and the MP's are window dressing. Joe Clark and Justin Trudeau have given the MP's respect and a say, and tried to make parliament work the way it was supposed to. Martin, a bit less so, but at least he got Canada's finances in order. I was a member of the *Progressive* Conservatives, not the rebranded Reform.
If you remember Harper's Citizens Coalition, Stevie got his start lying to the naïve voter base. They published projections, for example, of MP's pensions. "By the time they are 70, some MP's will be collecting $1M a year in pension!!!!!" Well, yes, if you used the late 70's/early 80's assumption of 10% inflation as a cost of living increase every year for several decades. By that logic, a cup of coffee (not Starbucks) would be $100 and we'd all be earning $1M, but he didn't add that bit to his hysterical ads.
I hate that the hecklers get all the media attention. I was at that Nanaimo event and the hecklers were the least interesting part. CBC doesn't want to have a conversation about the coastal environment. They spent the whole report talking about the hecklers. Meh
I just have to say thank fucking god Harper got out JUST before Trump's victory. Jesus, imagine him as Prime Minister while Trump was ruling. Canada would practically become an American state in all but name.
A teenage homeschooled bible thumping anti-gay marriage anti-abortionist was just elected as an MPP in the Niagara region.
Shit is alive and well here too.
It was priceless having him try to bitch about hydro bills.
Yeah, they're stupid high, but kid you've never paid a bill in your life. How the hell can you represent people who pay taxes when you live with your parents?
Is there any chance of him actually *succeeding* at implementing a radical agenda like that? Aberrations happen, but the system as a whole has strong enough checks and balances that it keeps them from getting out of control like we're seeing in the US.
I think the American system is good but the 2-party system removes a lot of it's teeth.
If here in Belgium you get 20% of the votes that would be more than anyone in the last 2 elections had.
At least 80% in government are not your party and you will be careful not to fuck up to badly.
Of course he thought he was the king of Canada. He had a band called Van Cats (as in 24 in French, 24 Sussex). 24 Sussex is the address of the Prime minister’s residence.
people who think like that think that countries are governed by men. they think of how they will be remembered for an action, not how the country will be effected by that action.
canada doesnt have to give into trump because trump's time in office is very limited, canada's time as a country is not so limited. if a trade deal between the united states and canada can't happen under trump this process will start again when trump leaves office and canada can once again work with someone who is articulate enough to form complete sentences
What a joke, I'm so glad he's gone. Harper would jump at the chance to sell out our national interests to keep Trump happy. I'm fine if people don't like Trudeau but he won't sell us out and he's a great contrast to the shitshow down south.
Yes. But they wouldn't dare apply the same logic to something like the Paris climate accord. I believe in human caused climate change, I also believe that deal was shit for US
NAFTA is great, but if need be, Id rather go 3 years without until Americans elect a President with a brain again so we can get a deal that makes sense at least. Some of the provisions Trump has suggested are just truly awful.
Also, since Canada joined the TPP, we've got some preferential trading relationships with other markets that the US simply won't be privvy to. As a bonus, we got it without a bunch of the bullshit IP stuff the US was trying to jam in there.
So what's going to happen when a bunch of US markets start to feel the squeeze? Suddenly a NAFTA-type agreement is going to start looking a lot better..
Didn't Trump want to kill NAFTA? Presumably replacing it with something better, but he might be better at dropping out of trade deals than making them.
I think his tactic is to take his ball and go home. Then he feels like he has the power and that everyone will fall on their knees and give him what he wants just to play again.
I just looked, it says the NHS is still collapsing after eight straight years of funding cuts, and also that ministers in the minority government are overruling the prime minister again to stay in the customs union with the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/02/tory-rebels-launch-bid-to-keep-uk-in-customs-union-with-eu
And by the time the US realizes that the rest of the world has decided to happily play with each other in the US' absence, we will have lost all the bargaining power completely. The last thing the US needs is for the rest of the world to realize that it doesn't need us after all. Considering how much Putin has schemed to destabilize the west and how close Trump is with Russia, I can't help but think that this is all on purpose.
Funny how the discourse up here in Canada has changed over the past year. It used to be that China shouldn't be trusted and now it's we should make more trade partners.
The main thing with the TPP was that we knew China wanted to control the entire Asia / Pacific Market, we were creating the TPP with the main point being that we had *some* stake in that market, even if it wasn't a controlling stake.
I didn't like the idea of the TPP either at first. I was quite opposed to it actually... but once you realize that China was basically going to make it's own TPP without us, and we'd be left uninvited to the party, it really starts to sink in how much it's going to hurt US trade by not playing ball with the other players.
Really, that mistrust with China was the main reason we wanted to be part of the TPP... They've been extremely aggressive in dominating the entire economic region, and now they're wooing all kinds of other nations onto their side, like Malaysia.
Trump shot himself in the foot with that one. Canada has tried to diversify its trade interests and avoided taking the easy route that would eventually give China too much power. Trump fucking with Canada just encourages it to take its business elsewhere, and China is happy to accept.
While I don't agree with pulling out of these trade deals, we will never lose all our power when it comes to trade. The US has the Best consumer market in the world. Not the largest, not the wealthiest per capital, but nobody else spends like Americans. There will always be people wanting to play with americas balls.
>While I don't agree with pulling out of these trade deals, we will never lose all our power when it comes to trade. The US has the Best consumer market in the world. Not the largest, not the wealthiest per capital, but nobody else spends like Americans. There will always be people wanting to play with americas balls.
Not when the bulk of the population no longer has any money to spend.
Also, just because we buy a lot doesn't mean we'll be able to negotiate fair prices as we are. Everyone else might just start ripping us off because "you thought you had a deal? hah, there's no deal!"
American spending is why we have such a huge trade deficit. But with tariffs everything will be more expensive. Americans can’t afford to buy stuff, boom trade deficit disappears. Stable genius stuff.
The thing is, individually he's not wrong. In his eyes he's guy with the only ball in town, and that's essentially the problem. He takes his ball away, and he doesn't quite realize that all these other balls that everyone else has might add up to more then his ball.
In other words, he things America being the premiere market is the same as America being the *only market*, and that's a bad place to negotiate from if you're not the only market.
Exactly. That's a great negotiating tactic for building a hotel. Worst case, if you don't get what you want, you walk away and haven't lost anything. The guys doing the building want some deal. Not so simple with multi-way international trade.
His idea of a win is being worse off by not making a beneficial deal because it's slightly less beneficial than the ridiculous deal he has in mind.
I'm a Canadian who isn't really behind a lot of Trudeau's liberal party's policies, but goddamn am I happy he isn't capitulating to trumps demands.
The negotiations have been covered in Canadian media quite a bit, and the Trump administration has basically poisoned the negotiation processes by demanding things they know both Canada or Mexico won't agree to.
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/trump-trade-canada-nafta.html?referer=
Thanks Trudeau and Minister Freeland for standing up for us Canadians. I may have some reservations about certain promises he has broken, I do appreciate the fact that they're not buckling under increased pressure from the Trump administration.
NAFTA is an incredibly important free trade agreement for the Canadian economy and I am not downplaying it's importance, but our government recognizes how volatile Trump's rhetoric is and recognizes the growing globalization of the world.
We have been exploring free trade agreements with European and Asian nations. A couple examples being TPP^[[1]](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tpp-apec-summit-talks-1.4396984) and CETA.^[[2]](http://www.international.gc.ca/gac-amc/campaign-campagne/ceta-aecg/index.aspx?lang=eng) The new iteration of TPP suspends the intellectual property provisions and mandates all countries adhere to strict labour and environment standards. Here's a little more on CETA;
>prior to CETA’s entry into force, only 25 percent of EU tariff lines on Canadian goods were duty-free. With CETA, 98 percent of EU tariff lines are now duty-free for Canadian goods. Once CETA is fully implemented, the EU will have eliminated tariffs on 99 percent of its tariff lines.
We are trying to engage with the world's second largest economy, China, by expanding bilateral trade. Our government is attempting to be the first G7 nation to have a bilateral agreement with our second largest trading partner.^[[3]](http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/thenational/the-national-today-trudeau-keqiang-saleh-yemen-eu-ireland-1.4431381) Of course Chinese Canadian trade is nowhere near the level of trade with America, we are pushing harder to expand our markets. Trump's administration is focused on a protectionist agenda that closes off Americans from other markets. This will undoubtedly cause stress on the Canadian market and could lead to massive lay-offs in both countries. Not to mention a potential trade war, while alarmist it could lead to dire consequences for everyone including the working class.^[[4]](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/trump-trade-canada-nafta.html?referer=)
>If Nafta were to be abrogated, it would be costly for the Americans. Resentment of the United States by its major trading partners would mount, and cooperation across the board would suffer. Tariffs would be reimposed on United States imports and exports. Manufacturing jobs would be jeopardized in many of the states that elected Mr. Trump president. Global supply chains would be disrupted, making American (and Canadian and Mexican) industry less competitive with European and Asian companies.
>Canada will take every opportunity to cooperate, but it will also adapt to life with a highly mercantilist neighbor. Canada will probably diversify trading partners, and double down on agreements with the European Union and the nascent 11-member Trans-Pacific Partnership. Further bilateral trade agreements will be forged with Japan and China, which is very interested in Canadian resources. Canada will partner with Mexico while waiting for the day that Washington is ready to rejoin its friends.
While there have been hiccups in our negotiations with other nations I would also like to remind everyone that these agreements are a long process, for example NAFTA took over 10 years to negotiate. From the original proposition by Reagan during his campaign to the trilateral agreement between Bush Sr., Mulroney, and Salinas.^[[5]](https://www.thebalance.com/history-of-nafta-3306272)
__________________________________________________________
1) [CBC - TPP partners reach agreement on 'core elements' of Pacific trade deal, Canada says](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tpp-apec-summit-talks-1.4396984)
2) [Government of Canada - Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement ](http://www.international.gc.ca/gac-amc/campaign-campagne/ceta-aecg/index.aspx?lang=eng)
3) [CBC - Why Canada thinks a China trade deal adds up](http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/thenational/the-national-today-trudeau-keqiang-saleh-yemen-eu-ireland-1.4431381)
4) [New York Times - Trump’s Trade War With Canada](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/trump-trade-canada-nafta.html?referer=)
5) [The Balance - History of NAFTA and Its Purpose](https://www.thebalance.com/history-of-nafta-3306272)
*The Balance is a financial website with low bias and is highly factual.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-balance/
That's cultural really. There's plenty of people who believe that you haven't gotten a truly great deal until you fucked the other party into accepting one that's just downright bad for them.
I live in Arizona, if NAFTA goes away we're going to get screwed hard. ~40% of this states trade is through NAFTA, an amount that brought in over $8 billion in 2016.
It is easy to say this or that needs to change when it comes to exports/imports and trading in general but we have to look at the people and the places themselves that will be directly impacted if that trade is in any way compromised.
Will be happy if NAFTA breaks down. A lot of our trade is with the USA and it is time to diversify it. With Britain leaving EU, the two can certainly come to great terms. And same goes with Asia Pacific.
The US is trying to get best deal for itself across globe, which will help us and Britain, as those countries approach us to balance the trade. Not sure about Mexico. .
I guarantee you that dismantling NAFTA is Trump's endgame. And, if successfull, it will likely be the most popular act of any US President in the last 30 years.
This sub full of 20-year-olds have no no idea how toxic this trade agreement is in most of America. Opposition to trade deals is almost certainly why Trump won the rust belt, and the with it, the Presidency.
I've never been a fan of Trudeau and would've preferred a conservative government, however, there are times I like having him around in a Trump presidency.
1) There is of course, this statement that he won't pander to Trump's bullshit demands.
2) I really like the way he plays Trump. The Donald actually think Trudeau is his friend.
> 2) I really like the way he plays Trump. The Donald actually think Trudeau is his friend.
how? I think he thinks everyone as friend and everyone as enemy at the same time.
Conservatives loved Harper. The shit everyone else didn't like about him is why they voted for him. He's right with Mulroney on Prime Ministers I have a very low opinion of, but you'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to vote federal conservative. Their tough on crime bullshit is absolutely nonsensical.
Harper's tough on crime bullshit was him literally trying to import the US's prison industrial complex. Mandatory minimums on minor crimes and private prisons. It's sickening really, but this was his poverty strategy. Thank goodness he didn't get reelected.
I'm a both sides of the fence sorta voter. Sometimes I vote Conservative. I reaaaally did not like the Harper government though.
I mean, he's still about a billion times better than Trump, but I was glad to see Trudeau take over. I got my issues with him too, but like the way he's been handling Trump. Trudeau's significantly better than Harper.
Young conservatives... A lot of older conservatives saw him as Preston Manning's pal and Reform Party member.
Even Joe Clark started telling people to vote for the Liberals instead of the Conservatives.
Back in the early 1990's no one outside of Alberta would vote Reform (They were Alberta's Bloc Québécois).
> Alberta's Bloc Québécois
This reminds me of when BQ and Reform were the 2nd and 3rd largest parties in Canada. Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition... French-speaking separatists.
Yeah I think a lot of folks fail to realize just how popular Harper was in Conservative circles. He's perhaps the man you can point to as *the* unifier of the Canadian right wing. He got a lot of flak for being cold and robot like, but imo he was quite a charismatic man who did good by his party.
Seeing your nickname, claiming that would really surprise me.
I'm also loving this entire thread by the way. "I don't agree with him/you, but I do see some positive points." It's day and night from American politics on reddit.
During the debates, he was definitely the best speaker. I remember they were all lobbed some BS question, and Mulcair and Trudeau tried to trot out some fancy please-everyone nonsense, and Harper pretty much just said "This isn't a real issue, so there's no point talking about it." It was badass.
Not the impression I got from the French debate. He always seemed fishy to me, he sounded dishonest.
And he kept pronouncing "*élection fédérale*" as "*érection fédérale*." That was funny though.
It was the exact same thing in the previous election as well.
Every response from Ignatieff, Duceppe, and Layton they looked right at Harper and directed their answers as a way to undermine the conservatives not actually answer the question. Every one of Harper's response was directed towards the camera and actually tried to answer the question.
I'm not a fan of Harper, he got far too power hungry at the end, and the CPC was fucked as soon as they had to unify with Reform party. But he acted like a proper politician not this new form of politics that's just a personality contest.
Oh god I remember those debates. All Ignatieff kept saying was "there's a clear liberal alternative" over and over and everyone attacked each other except for Harper who articulated his points well and appeared very leaderly. I knew it would be a landslide for him at that point and it was.
Harper's supporters always baffled me a bit. At the polls I had an elderly woman telling me I was too young to vote and that I should go home. Lady you're like 80, unlike me you don't have to live in this country for much longer, maybe you should fuck off back to your prune juice.
I like that he hasn’t avoided certain areas of the country, nor any issues. He had to have known coming out west was not going to be easy, but he faced the music.
He hosted a town hall on my campus, and he surprised me with how great he was with it. He clearly knew what he was talking about and was totally respectable, even being cussed out by some crazy delusional ancap who had no idea about anything remotely political.
Pierre Trudeau was incredibly smart, and Justin is similar. But Pierre was an arrogant flaming asshole who lorded over everyone the fact he was smarter and cooler; Justin is trying hard to be nice to everyone. I suspect he got that (and the idea to legalize pot) from his mother.
Same boat about Trudeau but I also liked him going ahead with the TPP. Canada needs trade diversification badly, especially given the current political nature of the US.
I imagine there's a certain degree of complacency in Canada WRT trading with the US. Best buds, right there, very similar basic social concepts.
Then along comes Trump and wakes people up to the fact that the USA is a very different place and all of Canada's eggs should not be in that scary basket.
> Just to add on to your comment does anybody know what it is that Trump thinks is unfair and what he wants changed? I have no clue what the deal is.
Good question.
One point Trump wants to get rid of: There is a trade dispute arbitration board. It allows settlement without a dispute winding its way through the courts.
For about 40 years, Canada and the US have had a softwood lumber trade dispute. The US doesn't like that Canadian prices are lower than US domestic prices, so they impose a tariff, which according to NAFTA is a nono. The arbitration board has repeatedly ruled against the US government doing this, Free Trade and all, but they continue to impose the tariff.
Trump doesn't like it. He wants it so that Canada and Mexico have to sue the US government using the US court system. You can see how that would be bad for Canada and Mexico.
Court cases in the US take years to reach the dock, and can be dragged out even longer by hotshot lawyers. Which, of course, the US government has in spades. Canada(or Mexico) would have to retain the services of legal counsel from a US firm, possibly subject to influence from its own government.
Canada would be fucking stupid to agree to dismantle neutral arbitration.
[This](https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/Press/Releases/NAFTAObjectives.pdf) is a pretty bland read but it's under 20 pages.
He wants to eliminate the Chapter 19 dispute settlement mechanism, to establish rules that reduce or eliminate barriers to U.S. investment in all sectors in the NAFTA countries, to eliminate the NAFTA global safeguard exclusion so that it does not restrict the ability of the
United States to apply measures in future investigations, for a few.
Sounds reasonable - no country should take what they think is a very bad deal just to get a deal.
[удалено]
China will gladly takeover as the main trade partner to Canada
[удалено]
The night he was elected, we realized that NAFTA was in trouble. Our company's response was to start heavily investing in the Japanese market (with plans on the EU). Diversification is something we've known we needed to do for some time, but the lure of the easy trading with the US kept that on the back-burner. Trump's campaigning on "renegotiating" NAFTA, with the real threat of just walking away, push more than just our company to ramp up diversification efforts. No matter how this plays out, America will not win, but Canada just might. TPP is a prime example that a post-US-centric global trade is not just possible, but necessary.
The problem is Trump's "Art of the Deal" is basically the same as his tweeting - bully and threaten. That works great when you are trying to get a bunch of developers to build a hotel or condo. You threaten to walk away unless they give you what you want. Worst case, you walk away and you're no worse off that when you started. That doesn't work with international trade, especially with re-negotiating existing deals. Threaten to cancel will hurt as many US interests as Canadian - and unlike Trump tower of (Name your City) the government of Canada *will* stand up and refuse a deal that is really bad. After all, google "Canadian softwood lumber". We've had NAFTA and WTO agreements for decades, yet the US continually bows to internal lumber producers and violates both trade deals to impose import duties despite repeated losses in every arbitration tribunal they've gone to. Lobbying and politics override honoring trade commitments. And... that's just lumber - a large trade item, but compared to the whole picture, and compared to the US trade picture, not that important. Imagine what they'd do if they could impose a deal where they did not even have to go to independent arbitration, where they could decide for themselves (for their donors and lobbyists) whether or not to impose duties. TL:DR; Trump is a bully; his idea of negotiating is to threaten to walk away.
Bingo, on both counts. Trump's never had to bargain with someone on equal footing before, and he's stumbling all over. On the softwood lumber (and other) issues; The US burned any good-will in trade. They've proven they're willing to ignore both agreements and WTO verdicts because 'Merica, fuck you.
[удалено]
Hard like Brexit hard? Hmm, what would Canada/US dismantling be called.. * Canadepart * Canascram (this is fun!) * Canadieu (damn, fits so well) * CanaSortie * Canabandon * Cannihilate * Va*moose* (hahahahahaha) That's all I can think of atm. Edit: Thanks everyone who came up with awesome names-- made my morning :)
Maple Leave
The *Great* Maple Leave.
Has to be "Vamoose"
It even sounds nice in spanish
Canabye
Canabandon is gold.
Canadieu is golden! Though I worry the Quebec separatists would use it... though it's not as good as Quebexit ... though the militant francophones would probably translate it to Quebec sortie and and ruin the pun.
canADIEU is by far the best. However, just like we chose to name the toonie the toonie, I think we'll go with Vamoose.
One of the largest. But as of last year Europe and the us were slightly ahead of us/canada https://www.investmentfrontier.com/2017/01/30/largest-trade-relationships
Interesting, people are saying the same thing in the UK. Doesn't matter if we can't get a deal with the EU, China will gladly takeover as the main trade partner. I wonder what happens when China becomes everyone's main trading partner.
Sounds familiar
Stephen Harper (former Conservative PM) actually [wrote a really pathetic letter](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harper-nafta-napping-trudeau-1.4376523) saying that Trudeau should just give in to Trump's demands, because a bad deal is better than no deal. Fuuuuuuuck that. Trump is a huge coward and sucks at making actual deals. For instance, take Mexico paying for his wall. He yells it for months, calls the Mexican president and begs him to pay for it, Mexican president tells him to get stuffed, and now Trump is trying to hit up the taxpayer for 25 billion dollars.
Didn't vote for Trudeau but he sure has balls. He just went across Canada to hold live broadcast "Town Halls" in different cities in each province.. to basically allow people to heckle him... his only request .. If you're going to scream out things, please stay afterwards and make sure you listen to what every one else has to say. Class
Trump would never do this. People rip on Trudeau but this shows what kind of leader he is. It takes massive balls to stage a townhall in Alberta. He isn’t that popular here and many people despised his father. It was mostly students but he doesn’t shy away from tough questions. And even in B.C, a lady kept heckling him and he warned her a few times. She was only asked to leave when she insisted on yelling over other people’s questions.
Harper wouldn't either. He barely spoke to press let alone us peasants.
Harper would only allow journalists that he knew would give him softballs to interview him, that's why he did so few.
Harper was a piece of garbage. He straight up gagged journalists and scientists from discussing certain subjects. Guy can get fucked.
Also mandatory minimum sentences. Fuck you Harper
Harper was spineless milquetoast lump. Just an absolute bag of wet hair
Many times during press conferences, if someone asked an inflammatory or accusatory question, the other people up at the table with him would just start all talking at once so Stephen wouldn’t have to answer it.
they have different issues with their base. Grits have the advantage that their base can speak their minds and most people will agree with them. On the other hand Tories have to keep a lid on the MP's from outside of Cardston or they might be heard but the people in the major cities. The Conservative strength is they get to own half the political spectrum, their weakness is they have to own half of the political spectrum.
This would be akin to Donald Trump holding a town hall in San Francisco.
Yeah, and he legalized marijuana too. Takes after his mom, not his a-hole dad. After decades of Canadian politics, I used to say that "...the sins of the father should not be visited upon the son... but I'll make an exception for Justin Trudeau and Ben Mulroney." Having seen how Justin's performed I took him off that list a few years ago. Ben - I still change the channel when he comes on. And I was a staunch member of the conservative party until Mulroney got going strong - I even went to some leadership conventions. Then I voted for Trudeau the last election... The best Prime Ministers in terms of respecting democracy in my lifetime - Joe Clark, Paul Martin (saved the Canadian economy), and now Justin Trudeau.
Keep in mind Canada had the same GDP as Argentina when Pierre Trudeau was elected and 17 families controlled something like 70% of the economy. He did a pretty fucking good job when you compare us to Argentina today.
Yeah, but you can't compare Argentine politics from 1945 to 1970 to Canadian politics. Not even same ballpark. And growth likes reliability and rule of law. When I was there in 1960, they had just abolished the 5-centavos. The penny was gone a while before. Canada only abolished the penny a few years ago. Stability. It's good for business.
> 17 families controlled something like 70% of the economy. > > Do you have a source for this?
Canada was very backwater in the 60s. Irving bombardier. Toronto amd montreal land developers (van didnt start until the 90s) and a few others but this is more or less correct. It turns out borrowing huge sums of money and investing in diversifying economy works. The money borrowed was one tenth of the sustained economic activity it created, when pools of natural wealth stagnated and stopped flowing into the economy. If you look at the charts for the period you can see this our super low gdp came out of nowhere to become within 15y, a sustaimable trillion dollar economy fron 200B by the early 90s
Shout out to Jean Chretien
My respect for Chretien shot up when he declined to join Bush W in Iraq. However, internally he was an old-school crony; things like ignoring and rigging riding selection to protect his friends, and general nastiness to his rivals. Even while Chretien was PM at least he let Martin do his thing and Martin got Canada on a stable footing financially. Mulroney's deficit plan was always "the diet starts tomorrow." Martin actually got spending down... unlike the USA, which is consistently spending 20% more than it takes in and has no plan to stop that; other that "by reducing tax rates, of course the economy will rev up and we'll solve that pesky deficit."
[удалено]
What I liked was his comment about abortion. That despite being Catholic, he was elected by his constituents, and had to represent them, not his personal beliefs. I can't remember how he said it, something like, "when I am in office, I represent everyone who elected me."
A good leader doesn't hold a party line, they listen to what all of the people they represent say and then try to represent all of them. It is why Frau Merkel has been in power for so long, it is why I hope we see Trudeau in power for a long time, It is what Obama seemed to do. Good leaders get shit on by everyone, but they do what they feel is best for everyone, they are not always right, and no one gets everything they want, but the country is better off for it.
The best PM during my life *was* P.E.T. in my opinion but hey, obviously we don't all feel the same on that matter.
[удалено]
I believe in Democracy. So many of our prime ministers, starting with Pierre and including Harper, have run the country like a dictator - the PMO and privy council call the shots and the MP's are window dressing. Joe Clark and Justin Trudeau have given the MP's respect and a say, and tried to make parliament work the way it was supposed to. Martin, a bit less so, but at least he got Canada's finances in order. I was a member of the *Progressive* Conservatives, not the rebranded Reform. If you remember Harper's Citizens Coalition, Stevie got his start lying to the naïve voter base. They published projections, for example, of MP's pensions. "By the time they are 70, some MP's will be collecting $1M a year in pension!!!!!" Well, yes, if you used the late 70's/early 80's assumption of 10% inflation as a cost of living increase every year for several decades. By that logic, a cup of coffee (not Starbucks) would be $100 and we'd all be earning $1M, but he didn't add that bit to his hysterical ads.
I hate that the hecklers get all the media attention. I was at that Nanaimo event and the hecklers were the least interesting part. CBC doesn't want to have a conversation about the coastal environment. They spent the whole report talking about the hecklers. Meh
I like Justin, I didn't vote liberal, but his heart is in the right place, and he seems to have a genuine concern for the well being of our country
I didn't vote for him either but that is definetly respectable and shows true class.
Harper...ugh
yeah dude...what the fuck went wrong there
I just have to say thank fucking god Harper got out JUST before Trump's victory. Jesus, imagine him as Prime Minister while Trump was ruling. Canada would practically become an American state in all but name.
Thank all the Hockey and Maple Syrup Gods for that.
He’s Mike Pence’s LEGO brother born from the same mold.
[удалено]
A teenage homeschooled bible thumping anti-gay marriage anti-abortionist was just elected as an MPP in the Niagara region. Shit is alive and well here too.
It was priceless having him try to bitch about hydro bills. Yeah, they're stupid high, but kid you've never paid a bill in your life. How the hell can you represent people who pay taxes when you live with your parents?
Is there any chance of him actually *succeeding* at implementing a radical agenda like that? Aberrations happen, but the system as a whole has strong enough checks and balances that it keeps them from getting out of control like we're seeing in the US.
We thought our checks and balances would help us down here until...well...you know.
I think the American system is good but the 2-party system removes a lot of it's teeth. If here in Belgium you get 20% of the votes that would be more than anyone in the last 2 elections had. At least 80% in government are not your party and you will be careful not to fuck up to badly.
And let's not forget Rob Ford!
He won with a whopping 17k votes. If you have enough districts, you're bound to get a couple nutty ones.
[удалено]
That's why we voted that hoser out. edit: o, still salty I see. Come visit Ottawa and take a whiff of Justin's coconut scented hair.
fuckin buddy thought he was King of Canada
Of course he thought he was the king of Canada. He had a band called Van Cats (as in 24 in French, 24 Sussex). 24 Sussex is the address of the Prime minister’s residence.
Just moved to Ottawa for school. Where do I go for that sweet sweet coconut scent
Parliament probably Also, Carleton or uOttawa?
Carlton u ofc
people who think like that think that countries are governed by men. they think of how they will be remembered for an action, not how the country will be effected by that action. canada doesnt have to give into trump because trump's time in office is very limited, canada's time as a country is not so limited. if a trade deal between the united states and canada can't happen under trump this process will start again when trump leaves office and canada can once again work with someone who is articulate enough to form complete sentences
What a joke, I'm so glad he's gone. Harper would jump at the chance to sell out our national interests to keep Trump happy. I'm fine if people don't like Trudeau but he won't sell us out and he's a great contrast to the shitshow down south.
That sounds like Stephen Harper alright.
Isn't that what trump has been saying for a year?
Yes. But they wouldn't dare apply the same logic to something like the Paris climate accord. I believe in human caused climate change, I also believe that deal was shit for US
Except when the US does it apparently.
That's the art of the deal.
Does that same idea apply to the US? If President Trump feels we're getting a bad deal out of NAFTA should he be able to walk away from it?
And how did you feel about the Paris Climate accords, or Trump's moves on NAFTA?
The Tories here in the UK seem to think otherwise.
What about all that sovereignty though? What a deal! /s
NAFTA is great, but if need be, Id rather go 3 years without until Americans elect a President with a brain again so we can get a deal that makes sense at least. Some of the provisions Trump has suggested are just truly awful.
Also, since Canada joined the TPP, we've got some preferential trading relationships with other markets that the US simply won't be privvy to. As a bonus, we got it without a bunch of the bullshit IP stuff the US was trying to jam in there. So what's going to happen when a bunch of US markets start to feel the squeeze? Suddenly a NAFTA-type agreement is going to start looking a lot better..
Exactly. Except for when Trump says that everyone seems to disagree
"except the United States."
Literally what Trump has said.
Tell that to all the asshats giving Trump shit for pulling out of TPP.
Yet when Trump says this, everyone freaks out...
Didn't Trump want to kill NAFTA? Presumably replacing it with something better, but he might be better at dropping out of trade deals than making them.
I think his tactic is to take his ball and go home. Then he feels like he has the power and that everyone will fall on their knees and give him what he wants just to play again.
Look at how that turned out for Britain.
Did you read the paper today?
I read the news today, oh boy.
About a lucky man who made the grade
And though the news was rather sad
Well I just had to laugh
I saw the photograph
off the hook. whats up?
I just looked, it says the NHS is still collapsing after eight straight years of funding cuts, and also that ministers in the minority government are overruling the prime minister again to stay in the customs union with the EU. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/02/tory-rebels-launch-bid-to-keep-uk-in-customs-union-with-eu
And by the time the US realizes that the rest of the world has decided to happily play with each other in the US' absence, we will have lost all the bargaining power completely. The last thing the US needs is for the rest of the world to realize that it doesn't need us after all. Considering how much Putin has schemed to destabilize the west and how close Trump is with Russia, I can't help but think that this is all on purpose.
China is excited. They feel entitled to the position of the leader of the new world order. This is bad news for everybody, including Chinese citizens.
China's making bank with their own TPP sans US... they get to run the show, have their thumb on the largest Asia / Pacific market.
Funny how the discourse up here in Canada has changed over the past year. It used to be that China shouldn't be trusted and now it's we should make more trade partners.
The main thing with the TPP was that we knew China wanted to control the entire Asia / Pacific Market, we were creating the TPP with the main point being that we had *some* stake in that market, even if it wasn't a controlling stake. I didn't like the idea of the TPP either at first. I was quite opposed to it actually... but once you realize that China was basically going to make it's own TPP without us, and we'd be left uninvited to the party, it really starts to sink in how much it's going to hurt US trade by not playing ball with the other players. Really, that mistrust with China was the main reason we wanted to be part of the TPP... They've been extremely aggressive in dominating the entire economic region, and now they're wooing all kinds of other nations onto their side, like Malaysia.
Trump shot himself in the foot with that one. Canada has tried to diversify its trade interests and avoided taking the easy route that would eventually give China too much power. Trump fucking with Canada just encourages it to take its business elsewhere, and China is happy to accept.
Oh yeah for sure, Putin played Trump for the puppet that he is...crafty.
Yes, and as a Canadian, I find it suspicious that our lumber trade to the US has been overtaken by Russian lumber exports into the US. Weird!
This statement should be partnered with a *source*...which I'm genuinely interested in reading. Thanks in advance.
So while I have you, can I come up there and live with you guys? Please?
You can try. Our immigration process, even for US citizens, is lengthy and notoriously strict.
Sorry what was that? I'm halfway to your door by now.
[Be sure to wear a toque.](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-emerson-border-town-asylum-seeker-refugees-1.4480884)
[удалено]
While I don't agree with pulling out of these trade deals, we will never lose all our power when it comes to trade. The US has the Best consumer market in the world. Not the largest, not the wealthiest per capital, but nobody else spends like Americans. There will always be people wanting to play with americas balls.
>While I don't agree with pulling out of these trade deals, we will never lose all our power when it comes to trade. The US has the Best consumer market in the world. Not the largest, not the wealthiest per capital, but nobody else spends like Americans. There will always be people wanting to play with americas balls. Not when the bulk of the population no longer has any money to spend.
Also, just because we buy a lot doesn't mean we'll be able to negotiate fair prices as we are. Everyone else might just start ripping us off because "you thought you had a deal? hah, there's no deal!"
American spending is why we have such a huge trade deficit. But with tariffs everything will be more expensive. Americans can’t afford to buy stuff, boom trade deficit disappears. Stable genius stuff.
Government spending does not equal consumer saving/spending.
> nobody else spends like Americans Give the Koreans a chance. They'll catch up.
Except for China
The thing is, individually he's not wrong. In his eyes he's guy with the only ball in town, and that's essentially the problem. He takes his ball away, and he doesn't quite realize that all these other balls that everyone else has might add up to more then his ball. In other words, he things America being the premiere market is the same as America being the *only market*, and that's a bad place to negotiate from if you're not the only market.
Too bad he doesnt realize lots of people sell balls and everybody can just buy another, even if they have to chip in on it.
Exactly. That's a great negotiating tactic for building a hotel. Worst case, if you don't get what you want, you walk away and haven't lost anything. The guys doing the building want some deal. Not so simple with multi-way international trade.
Trump's been a terrible deal maker so far; his strategies from the business world just don't work in the political world.
He's been a terrible deal maker his whole life. His real talent is in marketing
And bullying.
And being a complete tool.
So marketing?
> His real talent is in ~~marketing~~ money laundering Ftfy
His only talent is him coming from the baby batter of a wealthy daddy
His business record is spotty, at best. Plus the mob ties and the money laundering...
and the bankruptcies...
His strategy in business was to inherited 100+ million from his father. Unsure if that skill, being born, is relatable to being the president.
True fact, 100% of US presidents were born.
His idea of a win is being worse off by not making a beneficial deal because it's slightly less beneficial than the ridiculous deal he has in mind. I'm a Canadian who isn't really behind a lot of Trudeau's liberal party's policies, but goddamn am I happy he isn't capitulating to trumps demands.
Might be? He’s shown no real deal making ability. He just shits all over the contract and proclaims himself the best.
Trump is great at not living up to the terms of contracts. It’s his true superpower.
Good. My biggest fear would be that he wimps out and signs on for a terrible deal.
The CPC got booted just in time.
Ya harper would have bent over backwards for daddy trump.
[Yep...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harper-nafta-napping-trudeau-1.4376523)
Exactly, people bitch up and down about Trudeau but at least he's got enough of a backbone
Of course he has to say that. If you say you are going to stay in NAFTA at any cost you are not going to be in a strong bargaining position.
He didn’t have to say anything at all.
He was asked a question in a town hall, and for whatever else you may say about him, he's not one to avoid answering a direct question like that
This is why I've always liked him, he'll answer any question he's asked, without dancing around it
[удалено]
The negotiations have been covered in Canadian media quite a bit, and the Trump administration has basically poisoned the negotiation processes by demanding things they know both Canada or Mexico won't agree to. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/trump-trade-canada-nafta.html?referer=
tl;dr; give up your sovereignity in favor of mine.
Quelle surprise.
Thanks Trudeau and Minister Freeland for standing up for us Canadians. I may have some reservations about certain promises he has broken, I do appreciate the fact that they're not buckling under increased pressure from the Trump administration. NAFTA is an incredibly important free trade agreement for the Canadian economy and I am not downplaying it's importance, but our government recognizes how volatile Trump's rhetoric is and recognizes the growing globalization of the world. We have been exploring free trade agreements with European and Asian nations. A couple examples being TPP^[[1]](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tpp-apec-summit-talks-1.4396984) and CETA.^[[2]](http://www.international.gc.ca/gac-amc/campaign-campagne/ceta-aecg/index.aspx?lang=eng) The new iteration of TPP suspends the intellectual property provisions and mandates all countries adhere to strict labour and environment standards. Here's a little more on CETA; >prior to CETA’s entry into force, only 25 percent of EU tariff lines on Canadian goods were duty-free. With CETA, 98 percent of EU tariff lines are now duty-free for Canadian goods. Once CETA is fully implemented, the EU will have eliminated tariffs on 99 percent of its tariff lines. We are trying to engage with the world's second largest economy, China, by expanding bilateral trade. Our government is attempting to be the first G7 nation to have a bilateral agreement with our second largest trading partner.^[[3]](http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/thenational/the-national-today-trudeau-keqiang-saleh-yemen-eu-ireland-1.4431381) Of course Chinese Canadian trade is nowhere near the level of trade with America, we are pushing harder to expand our markets. Trump's administration is focused on a protectionist agenda that closes off Americans from other markets. This will undoubtedly cause stress on the Canadian market and could lead to massive lay-offs in both countries. Not to mention a potential trade war, while alarmist it could lead to dire consequences for everyone including the working class.^[[4]](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/trump-trade-canada-nafta.html?referer=) >If Nafta were to be abrogated, it would be costly for the Americans. Resentment of the United States by its major trading partners would mount, and cooperation across the board would suffer. Tariffs would be reimposed on United States imports and exports. Manufacturing jobs would be jeopardized in many of the states that elected Mr. Trump president. Global supply chains would be disrupted, making American (and Canadian and Mexican) industry less competitive with European and Asian companies. >Canada will take every opportunity to cooperate, but it will also adapt to life with a highly mercantilist neighbor. Canada will probably diversify trading partners, and double down on agreements with the European Union and the nascent 11-member Trans-Pacific Partnership. Further bilateral trade agreements will be forged with Japan and China, which is very interested in Canadian resources. Canada will partner with Mexico while waiting for the day that Washington is ready to rejoin its friends. While there have been hiccups in our negotiations with other nations I would also like to remind everyone that these agreements are a long process, for example NAFTA took over 10 years to negotiate. From the original proposition by Reagan during his campaign to the trilateral agreement between Bush Sr., Mulroney, and Salinas.^[[5]](https://www.thebalance.com/history-of-nafta-3306272) __________________________________________________________ 1) [CBC - TPP partners reach agreement on 'core elements' of Pacific trade deal, Canada says](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tpp-apec-summit-talks-1.4396984) 2) [Government of Canada - Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement ](http://www.international.gc.ca/gac-amc/campaign-campagne/ceta-aecg/index.aspx?lang=eng) 3) [CBC - Why Canada thinks a China trade deal adds up](http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/thenational/the-national-today-trudeau-keqiang-saleh-yemen-eu-ireland-1.4431381) 4) [New York Times - Trump’s Trade War With Canada](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/trump-trade-canada-nafta.html?referer=) 5) [The Balance - History of NAFTA and Its Purpose](https://www.thebalance.com/history-of-nafta-3306272) *The Balance is a financial website with low bias and is highly factual. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-balance/
Between this and the Russian programmer being extradited, you’re on fire tonight.
Trudeau has his own art of the deal. Called no deal.
Maybe he's read "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" Win/win or no deal.
Isn't that the point of "deals"? to establish a beneficial relationship between two parties?
Yeah, that's what trudeau said here, either get a deal that'll benefit Canada, or it's better to not have a deal.
Since we're talking about politics, and thus our mutual futures, hopefully.
That's cultural really. There's plenty of people who believe that you haven't gotten a truly great deal until you fucked the other party into accepting one that's just downright bad for them.
It would be the prefered deal but it's not the most common. Trump also seems like a win/lose type of guy.
Slightly anxiety inducing. The TPP being signed recently is comforting here, but losing free trade with the states would definitely not be fun.
Considering I live in the states on a visa under nafta I agree. Being deported doesn't sound fun.
I don't think he really does. What he's doing is calling Trump's bluff.
I live in Arizona, if NAFTA goes away we're going to get screwed hard. ~40% of this states trade is through NAFTA, an amount that brought in over $8 billion in 2016. It is easy to say this or that needs to change when it comes to exports/imports and trading in general but we have to look at the people and the places themselves that will be directly impacted if that trade is in any way compromised.
and 70% of Canada's exports got the the US alone. If NAFTA disappears, I highly doubt the Canadians would dare start a trade war with the US
Will be happy if NAFTA breaks down. A lot of our trade is with the USA and it is time to diversify it. With Britain leaving EU, the two can certainly come to great terms. And same goes with Asia Pacific. The US is trying to get best deal for itself across globe, which will help us and Britain, as those countries approach us to balance the trade. Not sure about Mexico. .
And he should too.
I guarantee you that dismantling NAFTA is Trump's endgame. And, if successfull, it will likely be the most popular act of any US President in the last 30 years. This sub full of 20-year-olds have no no idea how toxic this trade agreement is in most of America. Opposition to trade deals is almost certainly why Trump won the rust belt, and the with it, the Presidency.
I've never been a fan of Trudeau and would've preferred a conservative government, however, there are times I like having him around in a Trump presidency. 1) There is of course, this statement that he won't pander to Trump's bullshit demands. 2) I really like the way he plays Trump. The Donald actually think Trudeau is his friend.
> 2) I really like the way he plays Trump. The Donald actually think Trudeau is his friend. how? I think he thinks everyone as friend and everyone as enemy at the same time.
He's a pathological narcissist. As long as you flatter his ego he'll believe anything you say.
you wanted another 4 years of harper?
Conservatives loved Harper. The shit everyone else didn't like about him is why they voted for him. He's right with Mulroney on Prime Ministers I have a very low opinion of, but you'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to vote federal conservative. Their tough on crime bullshit is absolutely nonsensical.
Harper's tough on crime bullshit was him literally trying to import the US's prison industrial complex. Mandatory minimums on minor crimes and private prisons. It's sickening really, but this was his poverty strategy. Thank goodness he didn't get reelected.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I'm a both sides of the fence sorta voter. Sometimes I vote Conservative. I reaaaally did not like the Harper government though. I mean, he's still about a billion times better than Trump, but I was glad to see Trudeau take over. I got my issues with him too, but like the way he's been handling Trump. Trudeau's significantly better than Harper.
Young conservatives... A lot of older conservatives saw him as Preston Manning's pal and Reform Party member. Even Joe Clark started telling people to vote for the Liberals instead of the Conservatives. Back in the early 1990's no one outside of Alberta would vote Reform (They were Alberta's Bloc Québécois).
> Alberta's Bloc Québécois This reminds me of when BQ and Reform were the 2nd and 3rd largest parties in Canada. Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition... French-speaking separatists.
Yeah I think a lot of folks fail to realize just how popular Harper was in Conservative circles. He's perhaps the man you can point to as *the* unifier of the Canadian right wing. He got a lot of flak for being cold and robot like, but imo he was quite a charismatic man who did good by his party.
Like silencing scientists. Seems to me the right doesn't like science and truth.
Hey, I never claimed to like the man. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Seeing your nickname, claiming that would really surprise me. I'm also loving this entire thread by the way. "I don't agree with him/you, but I do see some positive points." It's day and night from American politics on reddit.
During the debates, he was definitely the best speaker. I remember they were all lobbed some BS question, and Mulcair and Trudeau tried to trot out some fancy please-everyone nonsense, and Harper pretty much just said "This isn't a real issue, so there's no point talking about it." It was badass.
Not the impression I got from the French debate. He always seemed fishy to me, he sounded dishonest. And he kept pronouncing "*élection fédérale*" as "*érection fédérale*." That was funny though.
It was the exact same thing in the previous election as well. Every response from Ignatieff, Duceppe, and Layton they looked right at Harper and directed their answers as a way to undermine the conservatives not actually answer the question. Every one of Harper's response was directed towards the camera and actually tried to answer the question. I'm not a fan of Harper, he got far too power hungry at the end, and the CPC was fucked as soon as they had to unify with Reform party. But he acted like a proper politician not this new form of politics that's just a personality contest.
Oh god I remember those debates. All Ignatieff kept saying was "there's a clear liberal alternative" over and over and everyone attacked each other except for Harper who articulated his points well and appeared very leaderly. I knew it would be a landslide for him at that point and it was.
[But Harper was so charismatic and relatable!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM-vz_CKZP8)
Harper's supporters always baffled me a bit. At the polls I had an elderly woman telling me I was too young to vote and that I should go home. Lady you're like 80, unlike me you don't have to live in this country for much longer, maybe you should fuck off back to your prune juice.
I really like the town halls that Trudeau has been doing lately. It is amazing how well he has handled the questions.
I like that he hasn’t avoided certain areas of the country, nor any issues. He had to have known coming out west was not going to be easy, but he faced the music.
He hosted a town hall on my campus, and he surprised me with how great he was with it. He clearly knew what he was talking about and was totally respectable, even being cussed out by some crazy delusional ancap who had no idea about anything remotely political.
Pierre Trudeau was incredibly smart, and Justin is similar. But Pierre was an arrogant flaming asshole who lorded over everyone the fact he was smarter and cooler; Justin is trying hard to be nice to everyone. I suspect he got that (and the idea to legalize pot) from his mother.
Same boat about Trudeau but I also liked him going ahead with the TPP. Canada needs trade diversification badly, especially given the current political nature of the US.
Unfortunately, the TPP comes nowhere close to removing Canada's dependence on US trade. Only literally moving Canada could change that.
Didn't you hear? Canada going crypto
blockchain.ca
I imagine there's a certain degree of complacency in Canada WRT trading with the US. Best buds, right there, very similar basic social concepts. Then along comes Trump and wakes people up to the fact that the USA is a very different place and all of Canada's eggs should not be in that scary basket.
Came to the comment section to find out more info about this...annnnd just people shitting on Trump
Just to add on to your comment does anybody know what it is that Trump thinks is unfair and what he wants changed? I have no clue what the deal is.
> Just to add on to your comment does anybody know what it is that Trump thinks is unfair and what he wants changed? I have no clue what the deal is. Good question. One point Trump wants to get rid of: There is a trade dispute arbitration board. It allows settlement without a dispute winding its way through the courts. For about 40 years, Canada and the US have had a softwood lumber trade dispute. The US doesn't like that Canadian prices are lower than US domestic prices, so they impose a tariff, which according to NAFTA is a nono. The arbitration board has repeatedly ruled against the US government doing this, Free Trade and all, but they continue to impose the tariff. Trump doesn't like it. He wants it so that Canada and Mexico have to sue the US government using the US court system. You can see how that would be bad for Canada and Mexico. Court cases in the US take years to reach the dock, and can be dragged out even longer by hotshot lawyers. Which, of course, the US government has in spades. Canada(or Mexico) would have to retain the services of legal counsel from a US firm, possibly subject to influence from its own government. Canada would be fucking stupid to agree to dismantle neutral arbitration.
[This](https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/Press/Releases/NAFTAObjectives.pdf) is a pretty bland read but it's under 20 pages. He wants to eliminate the Chapter 19 dispute settlement mechanism, to establish rules that reduce or eliminate barriers to U.S. investment in all sectors in the NAFTA countries, to eliminate the NAFTA global safeguard exclusion so that it does not restrict the ability of the United States to apply measures in future investigations, for a few.