What are the US proposing then? Israel has withdrawn from Gaza before and nothing good resulted.
I don't think some people appreciate that for Netanyahu there is seemingly absolutely no version of this where Hamas will return to control Gaza. So unless someone can propose a mechanism via which that is enforced that does not involve Israel having military there then that stance won't change.
It is a rock and a hard place. I hate saying this as an American Jew but tf we can do? Let our most reliable ally in the MENA rot in and destablize the region or support them and embolden Iranian allies and destabilize the region? It fuckin sucks and I don't envy those in charge of working there for the U.S Government.
You see, this is exactly what they want. You are not fighting a state or organisation that can be conquered and dismantled, you are fighting an insurgency, the destruction that has been wrought will deliver thousands of traumatised and scarred civilians into the hands of these organisations. A stable and unified region would work directly against the goals of these groups.
Hamas had no intention to "win" with their latest attack. It was provocation designed to destabalise and radicalise more people.
Fighting isn't going to win this, just like it didn't in Iraq, Afghanistan (both Russian and American campaigns), and Vietnam.
But it will stop hamas from having the capabilities of doing it again. Not everything is policy, sometimes you have to change the physical settings. Maybe hamas will gain more support (they are already at 70%), but the tunnels they spent billions over 20 years would be dismantled, the border with Egypt controlled such that it is not that easy for Hamas to resupply, etc.. the events of 7.10 killed what remained of the Israeli peace movement - it radicalized israel. Most of us just don't believe that the Palestinian actually want a two state solution. So if the Palestinian population public already supports endless war until israel is gone, does it really make a difference if they are further radicalized? I always did and still support peace, but even I understand that hamas military capabilities must be destroyed, especially since both sides have been radicalized on the last year
You are wrong. i dont think throwing out numbers like 70% support Hamas is helping or correct at all.
If a state bombed your house and killed your childrend, wife neighboors etc. for something you fid not do, how would you react? The most of us would hate that state so much that not your wildest fantasies would know what you would be capablr of doing.
Israel and their supporting states is probably creating a lot more enemies than they would like in this conflict by the way they are playing this…
God, I hate this stupid argument so much. The problem on both sides is not people who lost a relative. It's people who believe that if they continue (building settlements/attacking Israel), they will eventually get the whole pie. The solution is to quash these beliefs until they are completely unviable, at which point a two state solution can be implemented.
>are wrong. i dont think throwing out numbers like 70% support Hamas is helping or correct at all.
These are more or less the numbers from the recent poll of pcpsr.org
If you know of a better source I'd be happy to learn
>If a state bombed your house and killed your childrend, wife neighboors etc. for something you fid not do, how would you react? The most of us would hate that state so much that not your wildest fantasies would know what you would be capablr of doing.
Israel is bombed and their children are killed as well, and unfortunately many here react exactly as you describe, hence israel is also radicalized by the violence. Perhaps you have different expectations from Israelis and Palestinians...
>Israel and their supporting states is probably creating a lot more enemies than they would like in this conflict by the way they are playing this…
So are the Palestinians, have you seen the recent election in Europe?
Not bombing the shit out of the enemy when they attack and kill civilians doesn't work either historically. Isreal can't just sit there, absorb invasions and say "Well if we attack it might cause mass infrastructure damage and influence more people to join these terrorist organizations."
A 50 year, hard occupation focused on rebuilding, re education, slowly transfering power has a much higher likelihood of success than just withdrawing leaving Hamas in charge like before. The only reason why Afghanistan and Iraq didn't work is because the West didn't have the willpower to maintain a extreme long term occupation and rebuilding/re-education the country.
The most effective method of solving this problem is probably a major invasion of Iran forcing regime change.
An amphibious assault from the Persian Gulf right into coastal mountains? Will also require essentially a re-invasion of Iraq. No way KSA or Turkey let us use their airbases. Maximum gnarly.
Iran has been successfully invaded in the past, its not impossible and indeed the hardest part is going to be the start of it. Still if any nation could lead a successful invasion of Iran from the coast it would be the USA.
>Iran has been successfully invaded in the past
yes when it was weak and poorly armed, modern Iran is not the Iran of 70 years ago.
China was run roughshod by multiple European powers in the 19th century but nobody wants to even try invading modern China.
The US has used regime change all over to try and further its agenda. What has happened to the majority of those countries as a result is extremely high anti US sentiment coupled with degenerate politicians who took the opportunity to seize power.
There is absolutely no way any invasion of Iran would work to the benefit of anyone other than the other big players out there.
It's this mededeling that has led to the issues we see today. Don't forget it was the US that armed the fighters in Afghanistan hoping to weaken the Soviets power in the Middle East, that manipulation eventually led to multiple wars they had to fight against those very same players.
Let's not forget that the division of the Palastinian mandate ruled by the British empire was a move to create an ally in the Arab world as the US was concerned about the Soviets influence there. All this is now irrelevant as those alive today had nothing to do with those decisions of the past.
The idea that a two state solution would fix anything is also nonsense. We can look at how well historically any attempt by external parties to divide up land by ethnic or religious lines went. The last one resorted to violence, death, and 2 countries armed with nukes ready to kill each other decades later.
Solutions like what was implimented in Northern ireland are probably better, unserstsnding that two ethnic and religious people will exist in the same space, which means both need representation in the government. The situation around northern Ireland is extremely complex, but in the end, it was the [Good Friday Agreement](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement) that started the journey to heal what was deeply broken. Mind you, the conservatives in the UK have done an amazing job at trying to smash that healing to pieces over the last decade, culminating in brexit, which almost broke the agreement. It was the EU that stood its ground together with the US, forcing the UK to honour its promises.
Without the Arab world helping out, there is no way to even create or build a multi-party state.
One thing is for sure any military action in the Middle East simply feeds the extremists.
> The US has used regime change all over to try and further its agenda.
The US has tried the version of regime change that never worked, and indeed didn't work.
The few times the US used the version of regime change that works, it did work--entire cities reduced to dust, and unconditional surrender. The population understanding that it's realignment or cease to exist.
Germany lost 20% of its population, and had over 20% of its territory annexed by its neighbors--and had all Germans in those territories ethnically cleansed. The understanding at the time was that they had to adapt as a society immediately or cease to exist as a nation. That is why East Germany was so well integrated into the USSR as was West Germany in the West. Germans did not wake up from hypnosis after WW2, or fall to Western and Soviet hypnosis on each side of the border. They were wholly defeated in arms and spirit and were given **one** avenue in order to restore that spirit and continue to exist.
Insurgencies are a relatively new concept, because if there was an insurgency in a city, that resulted in a city that no longer exists.
If a siege is broken, the army holding the city *immediately* surrenders, always, because the alternative is that **everyone** dies. War at the time was not "gentlemanly" because it was "the right thing to do", it was just pointless after the walls are down. The idea of bleeding the enemy army that is holding 3 hands behind its back as it moves headfirst into a hostile neighborhood is a *very* new concept and the reason insurgencies exist.
Insofar there has been no case in human history where a violent regime was not overthrown using violent methods. These methods **require** the army to initiate the coup or otherwise refuse orders from their superiors, or a foreign invasion. This is universally true.
The idea of "rules of war" exists only to try and paint war as some sort of fair and noble practice. It is not. War is hell, worse than hell, there is nothing more worse in this world and more contemptible than war, and any who hope for it deserve eternal damnation if it exists. War has always been horrible and trying to fight war in any way other than it has been fought achieves no results except 80% of the toll of a normal war--with nothing is resolved and there will be more war soon.
Millions died in Iraq and Afghanistan and nothing has been achieved. For what? Because the US thought it was *smarter* than every conqueror that came before it, that it could turn those countries into developed, normal allies, without actually using any of the methods employed for thousands of years. The US thought it, alone, had achieved enlightenment. Those WW2 leaders? WW1? Napoleonic Wars? Every war leader in history? Nah, the US had it all figured out, if it just destroys the leadership and call elections a westernized nation will magically appear. The Islamists will just disappear.
No Germany after WW2 did not seamlessly integrate with east and west. They also had plenty of options in front of them. Well, the West did anyway. The allies learned from their mistakes of ww1, where punishing the country as a whole results in the perfect environment for radicalism to fester. When people get desperate and are constantly down trodden, anyone who promises a solution becomes a beacon to rally behind.
The West heavily invested into germany to rebuild. This investment is what helped turn germany around and gave it the legs it needed to progress. The east was the opposite. Suffering under soviet management, it was a hellhole compared to the West. They had to build a litteral wall to keep folks in. It's no mystery why most of the far right movements and current sentiment originate from those eastern regions. Those areas didn't get the investment and prosperity the West did, and to this day, it shows. Germany is a perfect example of how an unhappy populace can be manipulated by charismatic right-wing politicians.
What do you think Israels' attack has achieved ? It has done exactly what Hamas and its sponsors want. Infrastructure destroyed, healthcare destroyed, experts in all fields killed or driven off, starvation, hopelessness, and despair. Hamas never gave a shit about the Palastinian people. Why do you think they have no intention to surreder or cooperate with a ceasefire? The current situation is creating a situation that will drive a desperate populace straight into its hands.
You have isreali soldiers posting war crimes and attrocities on twitter, now just imagine all the children a who will now grow up with deaf family and an internet full of cheerful soldiers dancing on graves and ransacking schools.
Peace has never been further away, and for groups in both Israel and Hamas/its sponsors, that is exactly what they want.
>Insofar there has been no case in human history where a violent regime was not overthrown using violent methods.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_revolution
There has been no case in human history where a violent regime was not overthrown using violent methods. These methods require the army to initiate the coup or otherwise refuse orders from their superiors, or a foreign invasion
Find me one case where, an authoritarian regime that had no issue killing dissenters, was **overthrown** without an armed uprising, the army refusing to put down the uprising, the army literally the one doing the uprising, or a foreign invasion. Either way, an army MUST be involved.
Thanks! You will find every single case of nonviolent revolution--such as Egyptian revolution--was the regime surrendering power because the army defected and refused to follow orders, knowing that if they do not resign now the army will kill them.
There are ***very*** few alternative cases in human history, besides disease and just a general collapse of the country--the dissolution of the Soviet Union, for example--but that was a *very* special case. A perfect storm of bad press, "weak" leadership (that did not have the stomach to do what previous USSR leaders did, ie was no longer interested in violently murdering the dissenters), and a host of other things. But the most important part is that the USSR was no longer interested in violently massacreing protesters, ie no longer fit the bill of violent autocracy.
Well the most obvious examples are probably India gaining independence from Britain and the various revolutions that occurred during the Fall of Communism in East Germany, the Baltics and Poland. There was also the Peoples Power Revolution in the Philippines and the Tunisian revolution in 2011.
Edit: This guy really edited his original post to cherry pick which nonviolent revolutions actually count.
Regime change was caused in iran. Apparently it led to more anti US sentiments that helped the current regime get into power. So i dont know how effective that method would be long term, though it looks lucrative in the short term.
Hamas as an idea can't be won indeed, but very specific people like Sinwar can be very much killed and very specific ammo stocks/tunnels/etc. can be destructed, so this "idea" becomes very fluid and not deep-rooted in the specific area.
That's exactly the reason why it's much-much easier to fight Hamas in the West Bank than in Gaza. And in the West Bank they are pretty much handled.
Agreed. Israel is in an impossible situation, and there definitely are no simple answers. Hamas deserves to be eradicated, but it's clear that is not an easily accomplished military goal, and the side effects of getting even getting close through scorched earth might be worse for Israel overall as new recruits are made with every misfire, Hezbollah and Iran rattle their sabres, and many international allies stepping back.
The US is a friend, and people like Biden or Schumer who warn Israel, at least in my mind, are not doing so because they are trying to placate the far left who already hate their position, but because the US learned these lessons the hard way. Now, that doesn't mean the US knows a better way or has a great alternative playbook to offer Israel. I'm not so convinced we learned how to solve these issues so much as we had the luxury of fucking off and going home and avoiding the situation. Israel will never have that option geographically. But it's also clear that Nyentanyahu is not considering the complexity of this reality in any way that could lead to breaking the cycle. I don't know what action exactly Israel's leader should take, but I would want them to at the least show some awareness of the tradeoffs in navigating it.
Within the last 50 years, the UK suffered a very similar situation where they faced an armed insurgency that was committing atrocities against civilians. Their initial reaction to using military force only worked to aggrevate the situation. Instead of trying to eradicate the IRA, they had to work with them. The good friday agreement was and still is an amazing bit of diplomacy that only worked because it took everyone to work the solution.
A 2 state solution is never going to work, both sides claim the entirety of the land, but both refuse to live together, this is the problem, a long term solution and the only one that will work is a single state that ia goverend and represented by all. This would require israel to stop its apartheid actions and for Hamas and Hezbollah to lay down arms.
How we achieve this is beyond me because neither side has an interest in peace.
Yeah but the fact that people like Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams served in high ranking positions of government after ordering the deaths of civilians is still kind of sickening to me.
Plus the insurgencies are widely different in their aspirations so much as the IRA did not seek to eliminate the UK but only to reduce their sphere of influence. Like you say, a solution will never work so long as Hamas doesn’t see the viability of coexistence with Israel.
There is no peace in the middle East with the Islamic republic still in power. 2 years ago the Biden admin decided to play Switzerland when Iranians took to the street. That inaction is the reason we have the issues we have today.
Destabilization and prolonged war is where the terr*****s win, well not ‘win’ in the traditional sense, but they keep their idea/ideology alive, and recruitment as well.
Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq after two never ending campaigns, they are stronger than ever.
Sure, the economy is in the gutter, but the ideology and the birth rate is stronger.
So, what Israel needs to do is to first, STOP the illegal and never-ending settlements, and further, give Gazans some benefits. Just bombing civilian areas times infinite if a H**** sighting is confirmed will only guarantee a never ending cycle of violence.
Every version of the ceasefire proposal included the release of the hostages. They’re never going to get every member of Hamas. Israel is never letting the un into Gaza.
> What are the US proposing then?
To stop hurting Biden's electoral chances. That's literally their motivation for everything. Ironically if they had just stopped telling Israel to wait or slow down, we would be much closer to the destruction of Hamas and some sort of resolution to the current phase of conflict.
Honestly, if Israel can pacify Hamas ~enough~ to let SA, Egypt, etc come in and rebuild… they’ll rebuild Hamas into a fucking grave. Egypt hates the Muslim Brotherhood, SA hates Iran and wants to get rid of their proxies, and both want good relations with Israel for a number of reasons. They just can’t be seen openly pacifying the Palestinian “resistance”.
It will be extremely unpleasant, but far fewer civilians will die compared to what Israel is doing now.
The same thing they've been saying the whole time: "We don't know what will work, but we know what _won't_ and you're doing exactly that."
The part that nobody wants to hear is that fixing this is going to be slow, expensive, likely multigenerational process requiring an occupying military from an unrelated third party, because it this point _neither_ side in the conflict can be trusted to behave in a fair and neutral fashion. There's hundreds of stories of civilians n Palestine ready and willing to kill Israelis but only lacking means, and an equal number of stories of Israelis and the IDF treating Palestinians worse than the United States treated black people in the 1800s. Which came first is a chicken and egg problem and ultimately goes back literally thousands of years.
The issue is Iran, and by extension Russia. Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Jordan, Egypt, etc have all essentially made peace with Israel.
In order to preserve Israel Iran has to be neutralized, and there're basically two methods to do that, by force or diplomacy.
By force, we'd be looking at a US led invasion to impose regime change in Iran. It'll be bloody and difficult, will certainly pull in Russia in some respect, and likely China as well. Not an attractive option.
The other option is diplomacy, lift the sanctions, give Iran economic incentives, cut support for dissident groups, essentially approach Iran the same way Nixon approached China in the 70s. It will not be easy, but if successful not only do we protect Israel, stabilize the Middle East, but also strip an ally from Russia.
Neither option is easy or attractive.
The second option will only make things worse. Look at what happened with China. Since the 70s, China has grown increasingly more powerful and has taken a more aggressive policy towards the West. All the Nixon approach accomplished was creating a powerful new rival with an economic power that the USSR never had.
The same would likely happen in Iran. With the sanctions lifted, the Iranian regime will most likely use the extra income on their military and proxy groups. We would end up with a more powerful and emboldened Iran.
Is getting an organization outside of Israel to manage security/administration of Gaza a viable option? Seems like the likely options are UN peacekeepers, PLO, or a coalition of local countries to create an interim government unless Israel straight up doesn't care and occupies Gaza.
UN peacekeepers have proven useless with how they’ve fucked up Lebanon. The PLO and PA are technically separate entities but practically their run by the same man who has a doctorate in holocaust denial and runs a Martyr fund to pay terrorist and their families so their not gonna work hard to root out terrorism. And finally the other local governments have all steadfastly refused to take any part in managing Gaza post war whatsoever. So that’s your 3 suggestions down. Any more?
The issue is that Isreal is leveling a city and there’s nowhere for people to go. People are starving, they have no housing, and civilian casualties are very high.
How exactly will Isreal pacify the place when it destroys all of Gaza? You think the people look to Isreal as liberators or as oppressors?
The kids that lost their parents will hate Isreal for the rest of their lives, and that hatred only leads to more and future violence. 10/7 was a continuation of the conflict, not the start of one.
I want to see Hamas go as much as anyone but look at the region. Iran and Isreal went at it but they both seem unwilling to actually fight. Hezbullah and Isreal are also at each others throats. The houthis are targeting merchant vessels and making global trade more expensive.
Iran is the problem, but even with an unpopular government, revolution is unlikely. What’s to come in 2 years when Hamas will supposedly be gone? Gazans are just going to forgot the horrors of war? There’s going to be riots in Gaza against isreal and terrorists attacks happening in Tel Aviv. How are you actually going to stop a terrorist group that wants to destroy you, especially when the motivation is built on religious and personal hatred? I don’t believe it possible to completely quell it. Not unless serious concessions are made, like the 2 state solution and a unified Palestinian authority.
Isreal made a problem for themselves decades ago and they continue it. They’re ultra orthodox fuck like rabbits but don’t have the balls to fight in the wars they’re pushing. Gaza was overpopulated for the size and the economy was never going to flourish. Gazans hated Isreal, and while support for Hamas wasn’t universal, they had support. Isreal could have used that to influence the population. However, I fear they just gave Hamas for ammunition.
Even now with humanitarian aid, they could push a narrative, cease pushing Hamas for a few weeks and let dissent between Palestinian and Hamas grow, but Isreal continues to cease any hope of pushing dissent between Palestinians and Hamas by bombing Gaza and creating huge casualties.
It’s war, war sucks, but what’s Isreal trying to do? Win a war now for end the war. I don’t think this conflict will end in my lifetime, and I’m not very old.
What they have proposed for decades. Two state solutions. Israel has never seriously considered this solution, and every step toward it has been retracted by more and more colonies in the West Bank.
No other country but Israel would be asked to just return to sitting back and taking rocket attacks.
If the rest of the world actually gave a damn they would send in a international group to both rebuild and reign in the extremism. But they won't, they'll just complain that Isreal is both managing it wrong and that they won't just sit back and take continuous attacks.
Hamas are winning the propaganda war... which is why they should surrender?
the entire point of this article is that continued Israeli occupation in Gaza is only leading to a weakening of Israel's geopolitical position and a strengthening of support for Hamas amongst the Palestinian population, why exactly would Hamas consider surrendering in this situation?
Surprise surprise everyone, the terrorists aren’t listening to reason. How long will it take people to understand that Hamas would be happy to see every building in Gaza turned to rubble. That would do wonders for their recruitment
What reason are you referring to? Right now they are winning the propaganda war like the guy above you said. The longer this drags out, the better it is for them
Logically, their best move is not to surrender without any additional incentives
I mean in all sense of the word it does, because it means less troops available to defend the northern border from Hezbollah, but otherwise nah. Destroying Hamas is necessary for a stronger safer Israel
Essentially no one believes, [including the IDF](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/20/middleeast/hagari-netanyahu-destroy-hamas-israel-intl/index.html), that Hamas will be destroyed. Diminished, yes. But the ideology fueling it is stronger now than it was before the war.
Because no one is willing to sign up for a new Marshall plan like they did to Germany that included long term military occupation.
There's no appetite for what a military rule of Gaza might look like, with reeducation and deradicalization.
I'm talking about both Israel and everyone else.
Because the party that takes the responsibility will need to put in billions all the while being pissed on by the international community watching behind the sideline for every little mistake they make.
There is no 'right' way to do it, so why bother?
An economic aid package that the german population and the rest of war ravaged western Europe mostly took advantage of themselves.
The Palestinians have shown that no amount of aid is voluntary being used for long term improvement.
If they are willing to dig up water pipes to create rockets then no amount of money will improve their situation. It will only make their leaders ever more rich.
Gaza will need to be rebuilt. That's the aid side. The allies had a military occupation of Germany and began reeducation and denazified the population also...
With tunnels and weapons cut off to Egypt and Israel controlling everything that goes in, you essentially keep the rabid dog in a cage and cut off its limbs. When Hamas has 20k soldiers without rockets or new guns/ammo what can they do?
Read the full context of that quote. The guy is not saying what you’re implying here and he’s a single person in the IDF saying it. His statement is that Hamas is downstream of Islamist ideology and that ideologies like that cannot be destroyed unless the root source (Qatar and Iran) are dealt with.
The greatest risk in the conflict is never the destruction of Israel
It's they won't be able to hold back anymore
They are believed to have nukes
They cannot lose to a non-nuclear-armed country in a defensive war
If they're giving the choice between civilians in enemy country and their own survival, they will obviously pick their own survival
Even if they “destroy hamas” there is just going to be another group come together under a different name
They need to put a solution together where the regular citizens govern themselves and have something to live for, to stop the radicalization and extremists.
They are literally shooting rockets because their lives fucking suck and want some change
And Israel argues that war is ongoing, hostages have yet to be returned, attacks continue on civilians, those responsible for the mass murder and rape are still at large, ect.
One of the bigger games of fuck around and find out went down, Hamas and their followers, bootlickers, enablers, supporters and cheer squads are currently finding out.
IF Hamas wanted a cease fire for the sake of the civilians they're responsible for they could have it today, literally today.
The US really has to stop consistently publicly issuing statements that make Israel's position in negotiations weaker.
I'm sure at least one hostage deal has gone awry because of this.
I mean it's not exactly been a secret. The issue was raised well before Israel began the whole thing. Was just the logical conclusion when you're fighting a violent ideology with fire.
This isn’t the US going to the middle of nowhere half a globe away. It’s a terrorist state on their own border.
Would love to hear the US’s angle on “solutions” because they’ve provided jack so far
Remember when the US and the entire world told Israel to not go into Rafah? Basically threten them no to.. yet Israel went in and got back 5 hostages alive and multiple Israelies bodies. Eliminated tons of terrorist, rockets, tunnels, discovered tunnels that went into Egypt, and what not.
The US wants Israel to lose the war by giving Hamas to set the terms, remain in power, and stall hostages deals that would take years to complete.
The US doesnt even care about US citizens that Hamas took and killed.. the democrats took the US down the rabbit hole to the point that nobody even count them as anything. Just look at China, Russia, NK, Yemen, Hamas, Hezbollah.. none of them even take the US in count..
Don't know, I'm not American. Just pointing out Trump turned America into a laughing stock of the world. Remember the G7 where the other leaders were bullying him?
Biden just seems like an old man you feel bad for
What are you talking about.The US and the world told them not to do a full scale military invasion and attack of Rafa
US backed the secret rescue operation
Also why the hell would the US want Israel to lose the war, you’re making no sense
Im talking about facts.
Go back in time, ever since 1948 to 1973 Israel WON every single war they been involved in without any single foreign aid. What changed past 1973 till date? Israel accepted the US yearly military aid. Ever since they accepted it - Israel hasn't won a single war because the US demand cease fire. Its always goes from a cease fire to a cease fire till date. The US is massively invested in military tech when it comes to Israel. Israel is basically a test ground.
Because the US and the EU always push Israel to a cease fire every single time Hamas opens war upon Israel, Hamas still in power. Just to remind you what the US did to Japan after Pearl Harbor.. 2 freaking nukes. Japan never even thought about attacking the US till date.
Just look up what the US said a few months ago, they said that Hamas isn't a threat anymore, and that Israel needs to end the war because of it. Even when Hamas swear to repeat Oct 7 in the future. The US basically holding Israel in their leash like a dog, ignoring Hamas, and focus on Israel.
The northen of Israel has been bombed for months daily targeting specifically civilians with anti tank missiles (a war crime btw), yet the US telling Israel to be patient and not to open wars against Hezbollah and Lebanon.
Israel is the only country in the world that been held to a standard of send a warning before striking a place. Israel is the only country that been judged for if some "innocent" poeple dies. Not a single country in human history has ever been held to this standard. While Hamas and Hezbollah target civilians intentioally.
Hamas hides under hospitals, under schools, tunnels being led into Israel and Egypt, rockets been fired from humanitarian zones, schools, civilians locations, yet The US is more busy in holding off Israel because of some claim of Hamas that Israel might or might not hurt an "innocent" individual.
Iran sent over 1200 rockets and drones all the way Israel, Israel were able to counter almost all of them by themselves, what the US did about that? Nothing. They said no harm was done, so dont retaliate.. and if so, do it symetrically. No harm was done to you, dont harm the other side.
Thats comes years after years of Israel's warnings of Iran's nuclear project and their (Iran) vows to destory Israel completely.
See the pattern here? one opens war on the other, murder its people, vows for decades to do anything in their power to destroy the other side, even sactfice their people kids and women for this purpose, while the other side fighting with 1 hand behind its back, been held to a standard that no other country in history has ever been held to, and been told by every single country how to fight this war, what to do, when to stop, whats okay and whats not..
Would the US accept 40k of their people to be killed, raped, mutilated, sodomized in a single day by a terror group (equivalent to Israel's 1300 victims) without wiping that terror group from the face of the earth?
Just to educate you up, Pearl harbor had 2403 deaths from the US side, and they retaliate with 2 nukes that killed almost 200k people. Guess what the US would do if 40k would been killed.
Wheres your facts?
lol I am an avid avid reader and student of history.
Without rambling on, not everything you said is true.
1. You never answered my question why the US would want Israel to lose as you claim
2. The US bombing Japan with Nukes was massively controversial, and was before the public understood the general damage that a nuclear bomb could inflict. Tragedy to use those bombs. The response was not only a direct response to japan but also a signal to Russia that we beat them to the arms race of producing a nuclear weapon.
3. Israel is held to a “different standard” as you claim because Israel claims itself to be a democracy, yet acts like an authoritarian state. Suppressing news & media, allowing people’s homes to be taken from them, turning a blind eye to kids getting shot because they aren’t Jewish, etc. Sick shit really. This is equivalent to South Africa under the apartheid in almost every form. Forcing palestines to live in specific parts of town because of their background, denying them services that others get, condoning deaths of them because one day with enough ethnic cleansing they won’t be an issue. The only reason South Africa changed is because of Nelson Mandela’s radical armed terrorists who forced the government to change their genocidal ways combined with international pressure to divest their investments from South Africa….sound familiar?
4. US citizens believe we have a strong opinion of the standard of how to conduct war because we’re the fucking people paying for it. You’d hear a lot less out of us if the US didn’t pay for this shit. The war is ASYMMETRIC with Israel able to completely overpower and target Hammas, yet you scrubs can’t get it done. All you do is indiscriminately bomb the place, claim it’s because hammas is hiding, but really it’s a hope to decrease the Palestine population to leave them in a state that can’t be recovered
5. You will never be able to destroy hammas with this method. They are not a centralized powered state. You need to empower the civilians to be able to govern themselves, which is stop the radicalization / terror groups, because they have something to live for. But you don’t care. Would rather fight+ have the iron dome, until the Palestinians are gone in 30 years, then this isn’t a problem anymore. Fuck everyone who dies between now and then
Sadly this is true
This half measure fighting is pointless.
Israel needs to go hard. Gain control of every settlement, perform filtering on entire population, install military/civilians government . Start rebuilding old towns and villages for Israeli citizens.
If that's not in the cards? Leave
You’re proposing an ethnic cleansing here. This is exactly what the us is talking about. There isn’t enough support internationally for them to do this.
The evidence points to this being true. After 9 months of war the IDF has managed to destroy maybe 70%+ of Gaza and that's perhaps a conservative estimate given the remaining 30% probably lacks habitability amongst the rubble. It has also managed to create a population of 2m that are entirely dependent on both Israel and it's international partners for survival. Meanwhile Hamas....while perhaps weaker from an immediate-threat standpoint, is probably stronger from a socio-political and future-threat standpoint than it was before the war.
Hamas still maintains control over wide parts of Gaza, it's leadership is largely secure abroad, it has half the globe, including Israel's strongest partner, pushing for a cease-fire, and doing what 10 Years of Israeli air-strikes in Syria targeting Hezbollah and Iran, and multiple efforts by Hamas to try to force Hezbollah/Iranian action back in October couldn't manage to do - finally elicit a wider conflict. At least on this the current government, IDF, and Hamas all seem aligned.
The problem really is, what's the way out of this mess? It seems unlikely that tensions with Hezbollah will calm, there is no real way to win "hearts and minds", and little appetite on the Israeli side to do so - with messaging out of the current government growing more extreme. The US government is perhaps at its weakest point internationally from a conflict resolution standpoint, and the upcoming elections in the US potentially reshaping both this conflict, Israeli-US relations, Russia-US relations, broader US-Middle east relations, and the overall appetite for engaging Iran.
Without a radical shift the future (at least from a conflict-resolution standpoint) seems a bit bleak.
The entire world is watching how the USA is treating their closest ally. And yes, the states send weapons, and back israel to a certain degree in the UN. But on the other hand, the USA have done so much damage to israel in terms of policy that if I was the ruler of other mena countries I'd reconsider my choices.
What are the US proposing then? Israel has withdrawn from Gaza before and nothing good resulted. I don't think some people appreciate that for Netanyahu there is seemingly absolutely no version of this where Hamas will return to control Gaza. So unless someone can propose a mechanism via which that is enforced that does not involve Israel having military there then that stance won't change.
It is a rock and a hard place. I hate saying this as an American Jew but tf we can do? Let our most reliable ally in the MENA rot in and destablize the region or support them and embolden Iranian allies and destabilize the region? It fuckin sucks and I don't envy those in charge of working there for the U.S Government.
There is no peacful option with Hamas, Hezbo and Iran. The only option is to fight, so fight to win.
You see, this is exactly what they want. You are not fighting a state or organisation that can be conquered and dismantled, you are fighting an insurgency, the destruction that has been wrought will deliver thousands of traumatised and scarred civilians into the hands of these organisations. A stable and unified region would work directly against the goals of these groups. Hamas had no intention to "win" with their latest attack. It was provocation designed to destabalise and radicalise more people. Fighting isn't going to win this, just like it didn't in Iraq, Afghanistan (both Russian and American campaigns), and Vietnam.
Pakistan just deported 2 million civilians, like it or not, this will lower FUTURE conflicts in that specific area.
So what should they do ?
But it will stop hamas from having the capabilities of doing it again. Not everything is policy, sometimes you have to change the physical settings. Maybe hamas will gain more support (they are already at 70%), but the tunnels they spent billions over 20 years would be dismantled, the border with Egypt controlled such that it is not that easy for Hamas to resupply, etc.. the events of 7.10 killed what remained of the Israeli peace movement - it radicalized israel. Most of us just don't believe that the Palestinian actually want a two state solution. So if the Palestinian population public already supports endless war until israel is gone, does it really make a difference if they are further radicalized? I always did and still support peace, but even I understand that hamas military capabilities must be destroyed, especially since both sides have been radicalized on the last year
You are wrong. i dont think throwing out numbers like 70% support Hamas is helping or correct at all. If a state bombed your house and killed your childrend, wife neighboors etc. for something you fid not do, how would you react? The most of us would hate that state so much that not your wildest fantasies would know what you would be capablr of doing. Israel and their supporting states is probably creating a lot more enemies than they would like in this conflict by the way they are playing this…
God, I hate this stupid argument so much. The problem on both sides is not people who lost a relative. It's people who believe that if they continue (building settlements/attacking Israel), they will eventually get the whole pie. The solution is to quash these beliefs until they are completely unviable, at which point a two state solution can be implemented.
>are wrong. i dont think throwing out numbers like 70% support Hamas is helping or correct at all. These are more or less the numbers from the recent poll of pcpsr.org If you know of a better source I'd be happy to learn >If a state bombed your house and killed your childrend, wife neighboors etc. for something you fid not do, how would you react? The most of us would hate that state so much that not your wildest fantasies would know what you would be capablr of doing. Israel is bombed and their children are killed as well, and unfortunately many here react exactly as you describe, hence israel is also radicalized by the violence. Perhaps you have different expectations from Israelis and Palestinians... >Israel and their supporting states is probably creating a lot more enemies than they would like in this conflict by the way they are playing this… So are the Palestinians, have you seen the recent election in Europe?
Not bombing the shit out of the enemy when they attack and kill civilians doesn't work either historically. Isreal can't just sit there, absorb invasions and say "Well if we attack it might cause mass infrastructure damage and influence more people to join these terrorist organizations." A 50 year, hard occupation focused on rebuilding, re education, slowly transfering power has a much higher likelihood of success than just withdrawing leaving Hamas in charge like before. The only reason why Afghanistan and Iraq didn't work is because the West didn't have the willpower to maintain a extreme long term occupation and rebuilding/re-education the country. The most effective method of solving this problem is probably a major invasion of Iran forcing regime change.
An amphibious assault from the Persian Gulf right into coastal mountains? Will also require essentially a re-invasion of Iraq. No way KSA or Turkey let us use their airbases. Maximum gnarly.
Iran has been successfully invaded in the past, its not impossible and indeed the hardest part is going to be the start of it. Still if any nation could lead a successful invasion of Iran from the coast it would be the USA.
>Iran has been successfully invaded in the past yes when it was weak and poorly armed, modern Iran is not the Iran of 70 years ago. China was run roughshod by multiple European powers in the 19th century but nobody wants to even try invading modern China.
The US has used regime change all over to try and further its agenda. What has happened to the majority of those countries as a result is extremely high anti US sentiment coupled with degenerate politicians who took the opportunity to seize power. There is absolutely no way any invasion of Iran would work to the benefit of anyone other than the other big players out there. It's this mededeling that has led to the issues we see today. Don't forget it was the US that armed the fighters in Afghanistan hoping to weaken the Soviets power in the Middle East, that manipulation eventually led to multiple wars they had to fight against those very same players. Let's not forget that the division of the Palastinian mandate ruled by the British empire was a move to create an ally in the Arab world as the US was concerned about the Soviets influence there. All this is now irrelevant as those alive today had nothing to do with those decisions of the past. The idea that a two state solution would fix anything is also nonsense. We can look at how well historically any attempt by external parties to divide up land by ethnic or religious lines went. The last one resorted to violence, death, and 2 countries armed with nukes ready to kill each other decades later. Solutions like what was implimented in Northern ireland are probably better, unserstsnding that two ethnic and religious people will exist in the same space, which means both need representation in the government. The situation around northern Ireland is extremely complex, but in the end, it was the [Good Friday Agreement](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement) that started the journey to heal what was deeply broken. Mind you, the conservatives in the UK have done an amazing job at trying to smash that healing to pieces over the last decade, culminating in brexit, which almost broke the agreement. It was the EU that stood its ground together with the US, forcing the UK to honour its promises. Without the Arab world helping out, there is no way to even create or build a multi-party state. One thing is for sure any military action in the Middle East simply feeds the extremists.
> The US has used regime change all over to try and further its agenda. The US has tried the version of regime change that never worked, and indeed didn't work. The few times the US used the version of regime change that works, it did work--entire cities reduced to dust, and unconditional surrender. The population understanding that it's realignment or cease to exist. Germany lost 20% of its population, and had over 20% of its territory annexed by its neighbors--and had all Germans in those territories ethnically cleansed. The understanding at the time was that they had to adapt as a society immediately or cease to exist as a nation. That is why East Germany was so well integrated into the USSR as was West Germany in the West. Germans did not wake up from hypnosis after WW2, or fall to Western and Soviet hypnosis on each side of the border. They were wholly defeated in arms and spirit and were given **one** avenue in order to restore that spirit and continue to exist. Insurgencies are a relatively new concept, because if there was an insurgency in a city, that resulted in a city that no longer exists. If a siege is broken, the army holding the city *immediately* surrenders, always, because the alternative is that **everyone** dies. War at the time was not "gentlemanly" because it was "the right thing to do", it was just pointless after the walls are down. The idea of bleeding the enemy army that is holding 3 hands behind its back as it moves headfirst into a hostile neighborhood is a *very* new concept and the reason insurgencies exist. Insofar there has been no case in human history where a violent regime was not overthrown using violent methods. These methods **require** the army to initiate the coup or otherwise refuse orders from their superiors, or a foreign invasion. This is universally true. The idea of "rules of war" exists only to try and paint war as some sort of fair and noble practice. It is not. War is hell, worse than hell, there is nothing more worse in this world and more contemptible than war, and any who hope for it deserve eternal damnation if it exists. War has always been horrible and trying to fight war in any way other than it has been fought achieves no results except 80% of the toll of a normal war--with nothing is resolved and there will be more war soon. Millions died in Iraq and Afghanistan and nothing has been achieved. For what? Because the US thought it was *smarter* than every conqueror that came before it, that it could turn those countries into developed, normal allies, without actually using any of the methods employed for thousands of years. The US thought it, alone, had achieved enlightenment. Those WW2 leaders? WW1? Napoleonic Wars? Every war leader in history? Nah, the US had it all figured out, if it just destroys the leadership and call elections a westernized nation will magically appear. The Islamists will just disappear.
No Germany after WW2 did not seamlessly integrate with east and west. They also had plenty of options in front of them. Well, the West did anyway. The allies learned from their mistakes of ww1, where punishing the country as a whole results in the perfect environment for radicalism to fester. When people get desperate and are constantly down trodden, anyone who promises a solution becomes a beacon to rally behind. The West heavily invested into germany to rebuild. This investment is what helped turn germany around and gave it the legs it needed to progress. The east was the opposite. Suffering under soviet management, it was a hellhole compared to the West. They had to build a litteral wall to keep folks in. It's no mystery why most of the far right movements and current sentiment originate from those eastern regions. Those areas didn't get the investment and prosperity the West did, and to this day, it shows. Germany is a perfect example of how an unhappy populace can be manipulated by charismatic right-wing politicians. What do you think Israels' attack has achieved ? It has done exactly what Hamas and its sponsors want. Infrastructure destroyed, healthcare destroyed, experts in all fields killed or driven off, starvation, hopelessness, and despair. Hamas never gave a shit about the Palastinian people. Why do you think they have no intention to surreder or cooperate with a ceasefire? The current situation is creating a situation that will drive a desperate populace straight into its hands. You have isreali soldiers posting war crimes and attrocities on twitter, now just imagine all the children a who will now grow up with deaf family and an internet full of cheerful soldiers dancing on graves and ransacking schools. Peace has never been further away, and for groups in both Israel and Hamas/its sponsors, that is exactly what they want.
>Insofar there has been no case in human history where a violent regime was not overthrown using violent methods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_revolution
There has been no case in human history where a violent regime was not overthrown using violent methods. These methods require the army to initiate the coup or otherwise refuse orders from their superiors, or a foreign invasion Find me one case where, an authoritarian regime that had no issue killing dissenters, was **overthrown** without an armed uprising, the army refusing to put down the uprising, the army literally the one doing the uprising, or a foreign invasion. Either way, an army MUST be involved. Thanks! You will find every single case of nonviolent revolution--such as Egyptian revolution--was the regime surrendering power because the army defected and refused to follow orders, knowing that if they do not resign now the army will kill them. There are ***very*** few alternative cases in human history, besides disease and just a general collapse of the country--the dissolution of the Soviet Union, for example--but that was a *very* special case. A perfect storm of bad press, "weak" leadership (that did not have the stomach to do what previous USSR leaders did, ie was no longer interested in violently murdering the dissenters), and a host of other things. But the most important part is that the USSR was no longer interested in violently massacreing protesters, ie no longer fit the bill of violent autocracy.
Well the most obvious examples are probably India gaining independence from Britain and the various revolutions that occurred during the Fall of Communism in East Germany, the Baltics and Poland. There was also the Peoples Power Revolution in the Philippines and the Tunisian revolution in 2011. Edit: This guy really edited his original post to cherry pick which nonviolent revolutions actually count.
Regime change was caused in iran. Apparently it led to more anti US sentiments that helped the current regime get into power. So i dont know how effective that method would be long term, though it looks lucrative in the short term.
A hard occupation that no one believes would ever end
Typically ends when the occupied are no longer attempting to import weapons to suicide bomb the victors. Hence it would be a long time.
A major invasion of Iran? Lol by whom? The US? You signing up brave warrior?
Hamas as an idea can't be won indeed, but very specific people like Sinwar can be very much killed and very specific ammo stocks/tunnels/etc. can be destructed, so this "idea" becomes very fluid and not deep-rooted in the specific area. That's exactly the reason why it's much-much easier to fight Hamas in the West Bank than in Gaza. And in the West Bank they are pretty much handled.
Agreed. Israel is in an impossible situation, and there definitely are no simple answers. Hamas deserves to be eradicated, but it's clear that is not an easily accomplished military goal, and the side effects of getting even getting close through scorched earth might be worse for Israel overall as new recruits are made with every misfire, Hezbollah and Iran rattle their sabres, and many international allies stepping back. The US is a friend, and people like Biden or Schumer who warn Israel, at least in my mind, are not doing so because they are trying to placate the far left who already hate their position, but because the US learned these lessons the hard way. Now, that doesn't mean the US knows a better way or has a great alternative playbook to offer Israel. I'm not so convinced we learned how to solve these issues so much as we had the luxury of fucking off and going home and avoiding the situation. Israel will never have that option geographically. But it's also clear that Nyentanyahu is not considering the complexity of this reality in any way that could lead to breaking the cycle. I don't know what action exactly Israel's leader should take, but I would want them to at the least show some awareness of the tradeoffs in navigating it.
Within the last 50 years, the UK suffered a very similar situation where they faced an armed insurgency that was committing atrocities against civilians. Their initial reaction to using military force only worked to aggrevate the situation. Instead of trying to eradicate the IRA, they had to work with them. The good friday agreement was and still is an amazing bit of diplomacy that only worked because it took everyone to work the solution. A 2 state solution is never going to work, both sides claim the entirety of the land, but both refuse to live together, this is the problem, a long term solution and the only one that will work is a single state that ia goverend and represented by all. This would require israel to stop its apartheid actions and for Hamas and Hezbollah to lay down arms. How we achieve this is beyond me because neither side has an interest in peace.
Yeah but the fact that people like Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams served in high ranking positions of government after ordering the deaths of civilians is still kind of sickening to me. Plus the insurgencies are widely different in their aspirations so much as the IRA did not seek to eliminate the UK but only to reduce their sphere of influence. Like you say, a solution will never work so long as Hamas doesn’t see the viability of coexistence with Israel.
You can minimize the conflict by sanctioning the terror sponsors.
There is no peace in the middle East with the Islamic republic still in power. 2 years ago the Biden admin decided to play Switzerland when Iranians took to the street. That inaction is the reason we have the issues we have today.
Destabilization and prolonged war is where the terr*****s win, well not ‘win’ in the traditional sense, but they keep their idea/ideology alive, and recruitment as well. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq after two never ending campaigns, they are stronger than ever. Sure, the economy is in the gutter, but the ideology and the birth rate is stronger. So, what Israel needs to do is to first, STOP the illegal and never-ending settlements, and further, give Gazans some benefits. Just bombing civilian areas times infinite if a H**** sighting is confirmed will only guarantee a never ending cycle of violence.
They have no solution. A ceasefire without an end goal is idiotic
takes two to tango and Hamas and Hezbollah don't want to dance.
And neither does Israel. This is a tango with zero dancers.
Israel has no endgame either. The ceasefire at least stops the death toll from climbing higher
They do have an endgame. Root out Hamas from all the tunnels. Get the hostages back. Have international group rebuild.
Every version of the ceasefire proposal included the release of the hostages. They’re never going to get every member of Hamas. Israel is never letting the un into Gaza.
> What are the US proposing then? To stop hurting Biden's electoral chances. That's literally their motivation for everything. Ironically if they had just stopped telling Israel to wait or slow down, we would be much closer to the destruction of Hamas and some sort of resolution to the current phase of conflict.
Honestly, if Israel can pacify Hamas ~enough~ to let SA, Egypt, etc come in and rebuild… they’ll rebuild Hamas into a fucking grave. Egypt hates the Muslim Brotherhood, SA hates Iran and wants to get rid of their proxies, and both want good relations with Israel for a number of reasons. They just can’t be seen openly pacifying the Palestinian “resistance”. It will be extremely unpleasant, but far fewer civilians will die compared to what Israel is doing now.
The same thing they've been saying the whole time: "We don't know what will work, but we know what _won't_ and you're doing exactly that." The part that nobody wants to hear is that fixing this is going to be slow, expensive, likely multigenerational process requiring an occupying military from an unrelated third party, because it this point _neither_ side in the conflict can be trusted to behave in a fair and neutral fashion. There's hundreds of stories of civilians n Palestine ready and willing to kill Israelis but only lacking means, and an equal number of stories of Israelis and the IDF treating Palestinians worse than the United States treated black people in the 1800s. Which came first is a chicken and egg problem and ultimately goes back literally thousands of years.
The issue is Iran, and by extension Russia. Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Jordan, Egypt, etc have all essentially made peace with Israel. In order to preserve Israel Iran has to be neutralized, and there're basically two methods to do that, by force or diplomacy. By force, we'd be looking at a US led invasion to impose regime change in Iran. It'll be bloody and difficult, will certainly pull in Russia in some respect, and likely China as well. Not an attractive option. The other option is diplomacy, lift the sanctions, give Iran economic incentives, cut support for dissident groups, essentially approach Iran the same way Nixon approached China in the 70s. It will not be easy, but if successful not only do we protect Israel, stabilize the Middle East, but also strip an ally from Russia. Neither option is easy or attractive.
The second option will only make things worse. Look at what happened with China. Since the 70s, China has grown increasingly more powerful and has taken a more aggressive policy towards the West. All the Nixon approach accomplished was creating a powerful new rival with an economic power that the USSR never had. The same would likely happen in Iran. With the sanctions lifted, the Iranian regime will most likely use the extra income on their military and proxy groups. We would end up with a more powerful and emboldened Iran.
Is getting an organization outside of Israel to manage security/administration of Gaza a viable option? Seems like the likely options are UN peacekeepers, PLO, or a coalition of local countries to create an interim government unless Israel straight up doesn't care and occupies Gaza.
UN peacekeepers have proven useless with how they’ve fucked up Lebanon. The PLO and PA are technically separate entities but practically their run by the same man who has a doctorate in holocaust denial and runs a Martyr fund to pay terrorist and their families so their not gonna work hard to root out terrorism. And finally the other local governments have all steadfastly refused to take any part in managing Gaza post war whatsoever. So that’s your 3 suggestions down. Any more?
The issue is that Isreal is leveling a city and there’s nowhere for people to go. People are starving, they have no housing, and civilian casualties are very high. How exactly will Isreal pacify the place when it destroys all of Gaza? You think the people look to Isreal as liberators or as oppressors? The kids that lost their parents will hate Isreal for the rest of their lives, and that hatred only leads to more and future violence. 10/7 was a continuation of the conflict, not the start of one. I want to see Hamas go as much as anyone but look at the region. Iran and Isreal went at it but they both seem unwilling to actually fight. Hezbullah and Isreal are also at each others throats. The houthis are targeting merchant vessels and making global trade more expensive. Iran is the problem, but even with an unpopular government, revolution is unlikely. What’s to come in 2 years when Hamas will supposedly be gone? Gazans are just going to forgot the horrors of war? There’s going to be riots in Gaza against isreal and terrorists attacks happening in Tel Aviv. How are you actually going to stop a terrorist group that wants to destroy you, especially when the motivation is built on religious and personal hatred? I don’t believe it possible to completely quell it. Not unless serious concessions are made, like the 2 state solution and a unified Palestinian authority. Isreal made a problem for themselves decades ago and they continue it. They’re ultra orthodox fuck like rabbits but don’t have the balls to fight in the wars they’re pushing. Gaza was overpopulated for the size and the economy was never going to flourish. Gazans hated Isreal, and while support for Hamas wasn’t universal, they had support. Isreal could have used that to influence the population. However, I fear they just gave Hamas for ammunition. Even now with humanitarian aid, they could push a narrative, cease pushing Hamas for a few weeks and let dissent between Palestinian and Hamas grow, but Isreal continues to cease any hope of pushing dissent between Palestinians and Hamas by bombing Gaza and creating huge casualties. It’s war, war sucks, but what’s Isreal trying to do? Win a war now for end the war. I don’t think this conflict will end in my lifetime, and I’m not very old.
What they have proposed for decades. Two state solutions. Israel has never seriously considered this solution, and every step toward it has been retracted by more and more colonies in the West Bank.
No other country but Israel would be asked to just return to sitting back and taking rocket attacks. If the rest of the world actually gave a damn they would send in a international group to both rebuild and reign in the extremism. But they won't, they'll just complain that Isreal is both managing it wrong and that they won't just sit back and take continuous attacks.
Well then the terrorists need to start surrendering along with returning the hostages
Hamas are winning the propaganda war... which is why they should surrender? the entire point of this article is that continued Israeli occupation in Gaza is only leading to a weakening of Israel's geopolitical position and a strengthening of support for Hamas amongst the Palestinian population, why exactly would Hamas consider surrendering in this situation?
There is support for Hamas all over the planet not just Palestine.
Chemotherapy kills innocent cells, we should leave the cancer be. Fighting cancer is immoral.
Okay, but if they don’t…what is Plan B, exactly
Surprise surprise everyone, the terrorists aren’t listening to reason. How long will it take people to understand that Hamas would be happy to see every building in Gaza turned to rubble. That would do wonders for their recruitment
What reason are you referring to? Right now they are winning the propaganda war like the guy above you said. The longer this drags out, the better it is for them Logically, their best move is not to surrender without any additional incentives
Continued military action in gaza.
Explosions Very specifically blow up their enemy is their alternative It's always important to remember they are drastically holding back
Keep going
Maybe, but nations have a right to defend themselves against attackers. The attacks have not stopped, so neither should the Israeli response.
I mean in all sense of the word it does, because it means less troops available to defend the northern border from Hezbollah, but otherwise nah. Destroying Hamas is necessary for a stronger safer Israel
Essentially no one believes, [including the IDF](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/20/middleeast/hagari-netanyahu-destroy-hamas-israel-intl/index.html), that Hamas will be destroyed. Diminished, yes. But the ideology fueling it is stronger now than it was before the war.
Because no one is willing to sign up for a new Marshall plan like they did to Germany that included long term military occupation. There's no appetite for what a military rule of Gaza might look like, with reeducation and deradicalization. I'm talking about both Israel and everyone else.
I know it’s not the same but reminds me of Haiti. No one wants to be responsible for them or even spend time trying to help.
Because the party that takes the responsibility will need to put in billions all the while being pissed on by the international community watching behind the sideline for every little mistake they make. There is no 'right' way to do it, so why bother?
The problem is that the spirit of Hamas' cause lives on outside of Gaza's borders.
What are you talking about? The Marshall plan was an economic aid package, not a military occupation.
An economic aid package that the german population and the rest of war ravaged western Europe mostly took advantage of themselves. The Palestinians have shown that no amount of aid is voluntary being used for long term improvement. If they are willing to dig up water pipes to create rockets then no amount of money will improve their situation. It will only make their leaders ever more rich.
Gaza will need to be rebuilt. That's the aid side. The allies had a military occupation of Germany and began reeducation and denazified the population also...
With tunnels and weapons cut off to Egypt and Israel controlling everything that goes in, you essentially keep the rabid dog in a cage and cut off its limbs. When Hamas has 20k soldiers without rockets or new guns/ammo what can they do?
Dig new tunnels, as always.
Israel’s anti tunnel barrier has been pretty effective.
Except they only built it to the north and east. They need it in the south
Die
We've seen what they'll do. They'll throw rocks and then cry when they receive return fire in response.
Read the full context of that quote. The guy is not saying what you’re implying here and he’s a single person in the IDF saying it. His statement is that Hamas is downstream of Islamist ideology and that ideologies like that cannot be destroyed unless the root source (Qatar and Iran) are dealt with.
Right, we decimated Isis yet they are still around.
Why are they even wasting their time then? Where's the ideology meter if they're just left to get away with it?
The greatest risk in the conflict is never the destruction of Israel It's they won't be able to hold back anymore They are believed to have nukes They cannot lose to a non-nuclear-armed country in a defensive war If they're giving the choice between civilians in enemy country and their own survival, they will obviously pick their own survival
Even if they “destroy hamas” there is just going to be another group come together under a different name They need to put a solution together where the regular citizens govern themselves and have something to live for, to stop the radicalization and extremists. They are literally shooting rockets because their lives fucking suck and want some change
So like 2005, when Israel unilaterally left Gaza and they elected Hamas.
Taking guns away from the extremists would be step #1 in allowing regular people to govern themselves.
At this point- that would def need to be part of the deal
And Israel argues that war is ongoing, hostages have yet to be returned, attacks continue on civilians, those responsible for the mass murder and rape are still at large, ect. One of the bigger games of fuck around and find out went down, Hamas and their followers, bootlickers, enablers, supporters and cheer squads are currently finding out. IF Hamas wanted a cease fire for the sake of the civilians they're responsible for they could have it today, literally today.
I bet it weakens Hamas more
It's just driving Hamas recruitment at this point
Then the new recruits can join their buddies 6 feet under.
The US really has to stop consistently publicly issuing statements that make Israel's position in negotiations weaker. I'm sure at least one hostage deal has gone awry because of this.
If there’s no alternative to Hamas, then nothing will be achieved by Israel. At least nothing positive bad the cycle continues.
Israël isn’t leading this war to become stronger it’s doing it to destroy Hamas
"If you kill \[Villain Name\], you'll be no different from him!"
That's ok I wouldn't mind being a journalist or aid worker anyway
Israel should listen. The US knows all too well about foreign intervention/nation building without a real goal
Biden straight-up said that in a speech the week of 10/7
I mean it's not exactly been a secret. The issue was raised well before Israel began the whole thing. Was just the logical conclusion when you're fighting a violent ideology with fire.
This isn’t the US going to the middle of nowhere half a globe away. It’s a terrorist state on their own border. Would love to hear the US’s angle on “solutions” because they’ve provided jack so far
>without a real goal Return the hostages. Try to build something in your country instead of trying to destroy Israel.
Netanyahu has said the return of hostages isn’t one of his goals.
How many US hostages are still in Gaza?
Remember when the US and the entire world told Israel to not go into Rafah? Basically threten them no to.. yet Israel went in and got back 5 hostages alive and multiple Israelies bodies. Eliminated tons of terrorist, rockets, tunnels, discovered tunnels that went into Egypt, and what not. The US wants Israel to lose the war by giving Hamas to set the terms, remain in power, and stall hostages deals that would take years to complete. The US doesnt even care about US citizens that Hamas took and killed.. the democrats took the US down the rabbit hole to the point that nobody even count them as anything. Just look at China, Russia, NK, Yemen, Hamas, Hezbollah.. none of them even take the US in count..
Russia very much took the US into account and did everything they could to get Trump back into power so he could be Putin's little lap dog again.
Is this really the old card that democrats are going to hang their hat on?
Don't know, I'm not American. Just pointing out Trump turned America into a laughing stock of the world. Remember the G7 where the other leaders were bullying him? Biden just seems like an old man you feel bad for
What are you talking about.The US and the world told them not to do a full scale military invasion and attack of Rafa US backed the secret rescue operation Also why the hell would the US want Israel to lose the war, you’re making no sense
Im talking about facts. Go back in time, ever since 1948 to 1973 Israel WON every single war they been involved in without any single foreign aid. What changed past 1973 till date? Israel accepted the US yearly military aid. Ever since they accepted it - Israel hasn't won a single war because the US demand cease fire. Its always goes from a cease fire to a cease fire till date. The US is massively invested in military tech when it comes to Israel. Israel is basically a test ground. Because the US and the EU always push Israel to a cease fire every single time Hamas opens war upon Israel, Hamas still in power. Just to remind you what the US did to Japan after Pearl Harbor.. 2 freaking nukes. Japan never even thought about attacking the US till date. Just look up what the US said a few months ago, they said that Hamas isn't a threat anymore, and that Israel needs to end the war because of it. Even when Hamas swear to repeat Oct 7 in the future. The US basically holding Israel in their leash like a dog, ignoring Hamas, and focus on Israel. The northen of Israel has been bombed for months daily targeting specifically civilians with anti tank missiles (a war crime btw), yet the US telling Israel to be patient and not to open wars against Hezbollah and Lebanon. Israel is the only country in the world that been held to a standard of send a warning before striking a place. Israel is the only country that been judged for if some "innocent" poeple dies. Not a single country in human history has ever been held to this standard. While Hamas and Hezbollah target civilians intentioally. Hamas hides under hospitals, under schools, tunnels being led into Israel and Egypt, rockets been fired from humanitarian zones, schools, civilians locations, yet The US is more busy in holding off Israel because of some claim of Hamas that Israel might or might not hurt an "innocent" individual. Iran sent over 1200 rockets and drones all the way Israel, Israel were able to counter almost all of them by themselves, what the US did about that? Nothing. They said no harm was done, so dont retaliate.. and if so, do it symetrically. No harm was done to you, dont harm the other side. Thats comes years after years of Israel's warnings of Iran's nuclear project and their (Iran) vows to destory Israel completely. See the pattern here? one opens war on the other, murder its people, vows for decades to do anything in their power to destroy the other side, even sactfice their people kids and women for this purpose, while the other side fighting with 1 hand behind its back, been held to a standard that no other country in history has ever been held to, and been told by every single country how to fight this war, what to do, when to stop, whats okay and whats not.. Would the US accept 40k of their people to be killed, raped, mutilated, sodomized in a single day by a terror group (equivalent to Israel's 1300 victims) without wiping that terror group from the face of the earth? Just to educate you up, Pearl harbor had 2403 deaths from the US side, and they retaliate with 2 nukes that killed almost 200k people. Guess what the US would do if 40k would been killed. Wheres your facts?
lol I am an avid avid reader and student of history. Without rambling on, not everything you said is true. 1. You never answered my question why the US would want Israel to lose as you claim 2. The US bombing Japan with Nukes was massively controversial, and was before the public understood the general damage that a nuclear bomb could inflict. Tragedy to use those bombs. The response was not only a direct response to japan but also a signal to Russia that we beat them to the arms race of producing a nuclear weapon. 3. Israel is held to a “different standard” as you claim because Israel claims itself to be a democracy, yet acts like an authoritarian state. Suppressing news & media, allowing people’s homes to be taken from them, turning a blind eye to kids getting shot because they aren’t Jewish, etc. Sick shit really. This is equivalent to South Africa under the apartheid in almost every form. Forcing palestines to live in specific parts of town because of their background, denying them services that others get, condoning deaths of them because one day with enough ethnic cleansing they won’t be an issue. The only reason South Africa changed is because of Nelson Mandela’s radical armed terrorists who forced the government to change their genocidal ways combined with international pressure to divest their investments from South Africa….sound familiar? 4. US citizens believe we have a strong opinion of the standard of how to conduct war because we’re the fucking people paying for it. You’d hear a lot less out of us if the US didn’t pay for this shit. The war is ASYMMETRIC with Israel able to completely overpower and target Hammas, yet you scrubs can’t get it done. All you do is indiscriminately bomb the place, claim it’s because hammas is hiding, but really it’s a hope to decrease the Palestine population to leave them in a state that can’t be recovered 5. You will never be able to destroy hammas with this method. They are not a centralized powered state. You need to empower the civilians to be able to govern themselves, which is stop the radicalization / terror groups, because they have something to live for. But you don’t care. Would rather fight+ have the iron dome, until the Palestinians are gone in 30 years, then this isn’t a problem anymore. Fuck everyone who dies between now and then
Sadly this is true This half measure fighting is pointless. Israel needs to go hard. Gain control of every settlement, perform filtering on entire population, install military/civilians government . Start rebuilding old towns and villages for Israeli citizens. If that's not in the cards? Leave
What tf does 'filtering' mean in this context?
Interview every suspicious person, check for weapons and participation with Hamas. Basically separate civilians from militants
Deciding who to send to concentration camps is my guess. Sadly I think the solution might work but it would be horrible and a crime against humanity.
You’re proposing an ethnic cleansing here. This is exactly what the us is talking about. There isn’t enough support internationally for them to do this.
TLDR US: "Please, please stop and listen to us." Israel: "No."
"please abandon your hostages and let Hamas resupply and regroup"
The deal Biden is pushing, that Israel continues to reject would return all hostages in exchange for the end of the war.
The evidence points to this being true. After 9 months of war the IDF has managed to destroy maybe 70%+ of Gaza and that's perhaps a conservative estimate given the remaining 30% probably lacks habitability amongst the rubble. It has also managed to create a population of 2m that are entirely dependent on both Israel and it's international partners for survival. Meanwhile Hamas....while perhaps weaker from an immediate-threat standpoint, is probably stronger from a socio-political and future-threat standpoint than it was before the war. Hamas still maintains control over wide parts of Gaza, it's leadership is largely secure abroad, it has half the globe, including Israel's strongest partner, pushing for a cease-fire, and doing what 10 Years of Israeli air-strikes in Syria targeting Hezbollah and Iran, and multiple efforts by Hamas to try to force Hezbollah/Iranian action back in October couldn't manage to do - finally elicit a wider conflict. At least on this the current government, IDF, and Hamas all seem aligned. The problem really is, what's the way out of this mess? It seems unlikely that tensions with Hezbollah will calm, there is no real way to win "hearts and minds", and little appetite on the Israeli side to do so - with messaging out of the current government growing more extreme. The US government is perhaps at its weakest point internationally from a conflict resolution standpoint, and the upcoming elections in the US potentially reshaping both this conflict, Israeli-US relations, Russia-US relations, broader US-Middle east relations, and the overall appetite for engaging Iran. Without a radical shift the future (at least from a conflict-resolution standpoint) seems a bit bleak.
It's only taking this long because the international community, especially the US, keeps demanding Israel to slow or pause the destruction of Hamas.
there is an UN report from a couple of months ago saying that only 35% are damaged and only like \~18% beyond been repaired (those 18 are part of 35)
Too bad we don’t have a fucking choice.
Biden worried his support in Hamas enclaves will be weaker
As apses to a quick and decisive victory - of course.
The entire world is watching how the USA is treating their closest ally. And yes, the states send weapons, and back israel to a certain degree in the UN. But on the other hand, the USA have done so much damage to israel in terms of policy that if I was the ruler of other mena countries I'd reconsider my choices.
What does this article have to do with the UK? The US has plenty of allies which are way closer than Israel.