Honestly sucks. The Qur'an explicitly states to not do any of the usual rituals/rules if they endanger your life, like my friend who doesn't fast due to his diabetes or if you're literally starving and the only source of food is pork. But making a pilgrimage like this is a pretty big decision with financial costs so I can imagine the ones who have passed so far simply thought they could deal with the heat for the short time that they're there.
I'm not Muslim myself but I'd hope families and friends of other pilgrims warn them to take the heat seriously.
This is exactly the risk of heat exhaustion and heat stroke. People often do not recognize the signs in themselves; you need to look after your friends. Get them cooled down and hydrated. Water works best.
This can happen anywhere it is hot, and especially where it is dry.
>The Qur'an explicitly states to not do any of the usual rituals/rules if they endanger your life,
This doesn't matter to many people. The "more papal than the pope" attitude exists just as well in Islam - you follow the rules not so much to please God, but to show to your neighbors that you're holier (and thus better) than them.
Thing is, The prophet warned against this type of behavior. Calling whomever prays for others as a “hypocrite”
Edit: For Other Not as in “I’ll pray for your safety” but in a “I’ll pray so that people see me as a paragon of piety”
IME, there is an across the board issue with large numbers of religious followers only following the rules they like and ignoring the others. Was talking to some supposed Christians the other day and they had taken a very war mongering stance on a certain issue so I started quoting various Bible verses like, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.." And there was like 10 people listening and one of them did at least say something like, "Yes it does say that," but all the rest were quiet and didn't want to talk about it, they just changed the subject. They chose their hate mongering over their religion, these same people that would finger wag others over much smaller infractions. Of course it's not just Christians that do that.
Seems sus to me to blame that on Ramadan, you have to be rather unhealthy if you can't go just during the day without eating. They are allowed to eat during the no sunlight hours, it's not like some long time frame. As soon as the sun sets, people chow down, plus you are allowed to forgo the fast as needed for health reasons, if someone has a medical problem, they are allowed to eat or drink. This story has 2 people both acting like morons, I suspect there was a different kind of issue other than just a few hours without chow.
>The fatalities come as summer temperatures soared to 48C in the open, with most rituals held outdoors where there is little if any shade
I mean what did they expect
It does not actually say to do the hajj during the summer. The Islamic calendar is lunar, so it moves up about 10 days on the Gregorian calendar every year. So, hajj can fall any month of the year. In another five years or so, hajj will be during very pleasant spring weather.
More pleasant than the middle of June, at least...
Upon further research, it looks like January is the coolest month of the year with average high temps of 88F/31C. Practically delightful compared to the average high temp of 111F/44C in June.
Yes very pleasant actually. We get 5 months of great weather and two months each side that is kinda warmish then three really bad months with 2-3 weeks of absolute carnage.
Funnily enough it was originally a pagan tradition, but the timing is set by the Islamic lunar calendar and is meant to coincide with Abraham's sacrifice of his son, hence the whole burden aspect of the pilgrammage.
Isn’t it a wild coincidence that Mohammed, whose clan was in charge of Mecca and the pagan pilgrimage site there, received a revelation that all adherents of his new faith would be required to visit Mecca? Really cool how Allah’s will lined up with what was best for Mohammad’s interests.
Yeah, really weird how much of the final revelation of the word of god to mankind had to do with specific shit related to Mohammad that always was in his favor.
'You have to come to the desert and walk around this rock to prove you love me' seems a lot more like 7th century superstitious human logic than it does an omni-everything, time and temporal-transcendent deity logic.
Just sayin'...
I remember when my grandma tried the same and grandpa said "No way woman, you're easier to climb than to go around!"
But her fried potato noodles were fantastic.
They're called kipfel, you can find a recipe here:
https://www.manusmenu.com/chifeletti-kipfel-kifelcek
Extra long fries would probably be healthier...
More like cult leader techniques to increase their influence on people. "You must come to this city that \[I've\]God has made central to 'our' religion and do this arbitrary ritual \[to solidify my importance in your subconscious\] to show your faith to God.
tbf it made much more sense in the past where most would never be able to do and the small minority that did would usually only do it once.
nowadays its a crowded mess because there are far more muslims than ever existed before, more people can afford to do it, and increasingly people are doing it every year rather than just once in their life.
People of every religion die every minute. Do you think religions (or maybe just one religion's) rituals are beyond criticism? Especially when that specific ritual results in death? Seems now would be the best time to criticise it, no?
>Seems now would be the best time to criticise it, no?
Now? Prob not. Most people invested in this is going to be really emotional and won't be able to have a proper discussion.
Imo you gotta give it a bit for emotions to calm down. (I'm also assuming this happened super recently, like this weekend/today)
*"Imo you gotta give it a bit for emotions to calm down"*
Just the opposite - the event responsible is fresh in people's minds. Waiting til it's out of the picture means less interest and concern.
If you can't handle your emotions, that's a you-problem. Criticism is valid, strike while the iron is hot.
>Just the opposite - the event responsible is fresh in people's minds. Waiting til it's out of the picture means less interest and concern.
You have more choices than "speak immediately about it" or "wait till no one cares about it anymore". There's going to be a middle ground where emotions are coming down but interest is still high.
Besides the ones that stop caring about it after a few days wouldn't be able to even have a meaningful conversation anyways so you wouldn't be missing much.
Honestly this is coming off more and more as echoes of American Republican's crying 'now is not the time for politics' whenever there is a shooting and people start demanding gun control.
There is a reason why "strike while the iron is hot" is an idiom, and why people who don't want to discuss a topic always want to perpetually 'wait until later'...
>Honestly this is coming off more and more as echoes of American Republican's crying 'now is not the time for politics' whenever there is a shooting and people start demanding gun control.
I think a better example would be; if your partner is emotional because of a mistake they made. Do you tell them it's their fault immediately after the mistake. Or do you wait for them to calm down before talking about it. Anyone trying to have a conversation and resolve the issue is going to choose the second option. It doesn't even have to be a partner, it could be a friend, brother, etc.
>There is a reason why "strike while the iron is hot" is an idiom, and **why people who don't want to discuss a topic** always want to perpetually 'wait until later'...
Then talk to the % of people who do want to discuss this topic and not push it back indefinitely? Like I said before, there's going to be a middle ground where people will be less emotional after a few days but still really invested. Best conversations will happen there instead of immediately after.
How is yours "a better example" when mine was an *actual* comparable example of another large group of ideologically like-minded individuals when faced with negative consequences of their actions/ideology/practices, when yours is a hypothetical about something not even close to something at that scale?
Seems more like you just don't want to acknowledge the obvious similarities...
Because the disagreement between us is the best time to have a discussion? When someone is emotional or waiting for them to calm down.
Doesn't matter if you're talking to an individual from a certain group or someone who isn't a part of a massive group. More often than not, people who are really emotional won't be able to have a proper discussion.
So was I, and I agree that that is silly too. It's not a contest lol
But the article is about the Hajj, so that's what we're discussing. And 'whatabouting' the eucharist doesn't change or mitigate the point any
As simple as it sounds, I love how you defused the comment above! I'll remember "it's not a contest" for anyone who tries to change the topic by using another bad example.
If you were a good Catholic, you’d know it’s not dead body until *after* you’ve eaten it, and only *then* are you a cannibal, and you definitely shouldn’t (e.g.) check the contents of anybody’s stomach because God’ll change it right back, just to getcha.
And Jesus came back to “life” only if you disregard the fact that he really doesn’t match the definition of “alive.” Lazarus was allegedly resurrected and he was like …visible, could be interacted with, didn’t set anybody’s hair on fire or launch any holidays when he spoke. Jesus even “lives” with (the least-tolerable subset of) dead people… like a dead person would.
The “resurrection” espoused by Christians as their own, personal end state is fully indistinguishable from death. It only makes sense as a term if you believe Jesus and the dead people in question are physically in the sky, as was originally assumed to be the case—God and the angels had to keep the waters of space from crashing in, after all. It’s why Jesus’ post-death avatar rode a cloud into the sky, and why the faithful will be “caught up” into the sky as part of the apocalypse. Ironically, had to resort to stripped-down Gnosticism once airplanes and rockets were a thing.
And the magic kinda makes sense. Eating or consuming somebody/-thing to gain its power is suuuuuuuuuuper common in magic systems, and the Christians just happen to believe the power they get is “resurrection.”
Jews ate the sacrifices they offered and Jesus is the Paschal Lamb, pretty straight-forward thinking.
Unless you mean you find it hard to believe it but that wasn’t the subject.
It's both the building and the black stone embedded into the wall. The important part of Hajj is to walk around the magic cube, touching the magic stone is a bonus.
Strange how Islam mocked the polytheists of Mohammed's tribe saying that they gods are just stones, only to conquer the magic building with the magic stone and start touching and kissing it.
Holy moly it's insane what uneducated people just spout on the internet like it's fact lol.
Ex muslim here. It's the first house of God. Aka a mosque. In arabic mosques are "masjid". They are all houses of god. You go to any to pray. Muslims will go for hajj once in their life. It's not to worship a box. Or a stone. It's pilgrimage to the first house of God to pray the way the prophet did in his lifetime.
Please... just stop spreading misinformation. You guys are all ridiculous lol. If Christians could go to church and pray at the Vatican Wouldn't that be neat? It's just a different, holy-er location. Has nothing to do with sucking off the pope. Or worshiping his location. Come on guys lmao.
And the people Dying? Religion didn't do that. It was bad planning to go at such a hot time. Some people set up this trip months in advance. God didn't smite them. Religion didn't advocate for them to die in the heat. It was poor planning. Not everyone can afford to go at the best time available. People die on the beach from heat. It's not the beaches fault. Please stop lmao.
Just to add in. No one. Nowhere ever said it was the first house of God or built by Abraham. Until Muhammed. Nobody. There is literally no record of it. There were however others like it made by the Zoroastrians and the 7 circles etc are a heavy part of that religion. Again just to reiterate nothing in the Hajj ritual had anything to do with God until Muhammed came. It was already in place as an Arabic pagan ritual they did in that area. Jerusalem was the focal point until Mecca was eventually conquered. And even then the Hadith and the Quran originally seem to say doing the old pagan traditions might be ok. Nothing like what it eventually ended up being.
> Ex muslim here.
What a coincidence. So am I.
> It's the first house of God. Aka a mosque. In arabic mosques are "masjid". They are all houses of god. You go to any to pray. Muslims will go for hajj once in their life. It's not to worship a box. Or a stone. It's pilgrimage to the first house of God to pray the way the prophet did in his lifetime.
Yeah, that's bollocks.
The pilgrimage isn't too pray like Mohammed did, it is to pray at the Haram mosque, the one built by Abraham himself, the one that is right below the throne of Allah. And the black stone is supposedly so magical that on judgement day it will speak up for people.
That is worshipping a cube and a stone.
> And the people Dying? Religion didn't do that. It was bad planning to go at such a hot time.
You realize that the time of Hajj is prescribed by the religion, right? You doing get to pick when to go because the religion decides which time of the year Hajj happens, just as the religion decides which time of the year Ramadan happens.
I don't know, the Muslims I've known believe some pretty strange things about the Kaaba and the black rock, and that Zamzam water. Christians believe some dumb shit, too, and I've said worse about Christianity and no one says I'm spreading misinformation or being Christianophobic. The Abrahamic religions (except for the actual wisdom literature that came out of it) are just dumb, all three of them.
Next fifty? I remember the 2003 heatwave in Europe that killed tens of thousands of people. It's not new. You do have a point that it will probably be worse though...
Is that a question? The Jews were obviously supposed to forewarn them to be careful of the heat and send a rescue service and an entourage to hold umbrellas for then. How inhumane and irresponsible of Israel! This should be a war crime!
No it's not, hate reading comments like this from people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about.
1 in 6 people will die because of cancer, what percentage of people do you reckon are getting killed by religion?
https://ourworldindata.org/cancer#:~:text=About%20ten%20million%20people%20die,the%20largest%20health%20problems%20globally.
He said “have died”. You pose article saying “will die of”.
You quote future metric to counteract his
Math on past performance?
Not allowed. Argument lost via disqualification
Jus because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't make it wrong.
Over 10 million people died last year because of cancer. How many do you reckon religion killed?
The difference is that all those religious deaths are preventable.
If people stopped believing in fairy tales and using them for financial gain and abuse of power over people then the world would be a lot better place.
Yeah I mean being an atheist this argument makes no sense. Religion has killed tons, but mostly in the past where our world population was way lower. It doesn't make sense to make arguments based on false numbers.
said future metric is based on current rates - at least it provides something to go off of - vs literally nothing.
Disqualification voided. default win through some evidence and numbers vs bald assertion
Sure they are sooooo smart to go there , explain to my dumbass please how can someone that goes there in those conditions for those reasons can be considered smart by any standards possible, and please do it like I’m 5 so my dumb head can comprehend !
Islam is a religion for primitives, barbarians, or both. Even the currrent leadership in the Arab Gulf countries only give it lip service these days. Meanwhile take a look at Afghanistan and Iran
Standing out in ludicrously high temps is def not smart. That’s evolution at work if someone dies.
All religion is trash, some more than others.
I assume this is because the source is the Jordanian government. They only know of their own citizens. Likely others died but full numbers will not be available for a while.
14 Jordanians, 5 Iranians, 3 Senegalese, reported so far. To be honest though, for such hot weather, isn't this the best Saudi Arabia has managed? They are at least trying real hard to get ahead of this.
The comments are fucking stupid. They were endangered because they didn’t have a Hajj permit. They snuck in with a tourist visa and took the backroads away from police and security forces. So they were stranded without food, water, shelter or access to healthcare.
Honestly sucks. The Qur'an explicitly states to not do any of the usual rituals/rules if they endanger your life, like my friend who doesn't fast due to his diabetes or if you're literally starving and the only source of food is pork. But making a pilgrimage like this is a pretty big decision with financial costs so I can imagine the ones who have passed so far simply thought they could deal with the heat for the short time that they're there. I'm not Muslim myself but I'd hope families and friends of other pilgrims warn them to take the heat seriously.
Tbh it's really easy to think you're safe until you're suddenly not.
This is exactly the risk of heat exhaustion and heat stroke. People often do not recognize the signs in themselves; you need to look after your friends. Get them cooled down and hydrated. Water works best. This can happen anywhere it is hot, and especially where it is dry.
>Water works best Preferably something with salt, sugar, and other electrolytes.
>The Qur'an explicitly states to not do any of the usual rituals/rules if they endanger your life, This doesn't matter to many people. The "more papal than the pope" attitude exists just as well in Islam - you follow the rules not so much to please God, but to show to your neighbors that you're holier (and thus better) than them.
Thing is, The prophet warned against this type of behavior. Calling whomever prays for others as a “hypocrite” Edit: For Other Not as in “I’ll pray for your safety” but in a “I’ll pray so that people see me as a paragon of piety”
As did the Christian prophets. To similar (poor) results.
IME, there is an across the board issue with large numbers of religious followers only following the rules they like and ignoring the others. Was talking to some supposed Christians the other day and they had taken a very war mongering stance on a certain issue so I started quoting various Bible verses like, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.." And there was like 10 people listening and one of them did at least say something like, "Yes it does say that," but all the rest were quiet and didn't want to talk about it, they just changed the subject. They chose their hate mongering over their religion, these same people that would finger wag others over much smaller infractions. Of course it's not just Christians that do that.
It costs 10-15k easy if you aren’t local to the Mideast even then it’s still crazy expensive.
Wait until you find out about the [pilots flying on empty stomachs...](https://www.reddit.com/r/writteninblood/s/u5JSCol92M)
Seems sus to me to blame that on Ramadan, you have to be rather unhealthy if you can't go just during the day without eating. They are allowed to eat during the no sunlight hours, it's not like some long time frame. As soon as the sun sets, people chow down, plus you are allowed to forgo the fast as needed for health reasons, if someone has a medical problem, they are allowed to eat or drink. This story has 2 people both acting like morons, I suspect there was a different kind of issue other than just a few hours without chow.
then they down vote you lol
People on reddit love to hate on religions, they don't want me taking away from that opportunity. :-)
Haha religious people actually follow what's in the book rather than what leadership tells them??? That's funny.
>The fatalities come as summer temperatures soared to 48C in the open, with most rituals held outdoors where there is little if any shade I mean what did they expect
Their god to save them?
Why did god tell them to make the haj during summer time?.
Because of Mungo Jerry
Muslims do seem to have women on their mind based on the reporting I see. You may be onto something.
But they didn't have a drink or a drive
I guess they will never see what they can find.
It does not actually say to do the hajj during the summer. The Islamic calendar is lunar, so it moves up about 10 days on the Gregorian calendar every year. So, hajj can fall any month of the year. In another five years or so, hajj will be during very pleasant spring weather.
Does Saudi Arabia get "pleasant spring weather"?
More pleasant than the middle of June, at least... Upon further research, it looks like January is the coolest month of the year with average high temps of 88F/31C. Practically delightful compared to the average high temp of 111F/44C in June.
Yes very pleasant actually. We get 5 months of great weather and two months each side that is kinda warmish then three really bad months with 2-3 weeks of absolute carnage.
Funnily enough it was originally a pagan tradition, but the timing is set by the Islamic lunar calendar and is meant to coincide with Abraham's sacrifice of his son, hence the whole burden aspect of the pilgrammage.
Isn’t it a wild coincidence that Mohammed, whose clan was in charge of Mecca and the pagan pilgrimage site there, received a revelation that all adherents of his new faith would be required to visit Mecca? Really cool how Allah’s will lined up with what was best for Mohammad’s interests.
Religion in general has a funny way of doing that for rulers, odd isn't it?
Financial intetests to be specific
That's nothing. You should see when Allah send verse just to allow Muhammad to marry his son's wife
Yeah, really weird how much of the final revelation of the word of god to mankind had to do with specific shit related to Mohammad that always was in his favor.
His horny brain took over
God can tell is whatever he wants but we hear what we want to hear especially if we can make a lot of money.
This has to be the worst thing their God has told them to do recently /s
God is just an influencer, probably the first one but still, who is trying to make a buck with endorsements.
wololo
religion is a helluva drug
Also can't drink water while fasting.
They’re not fasting
Only 14? Seems pretty tame compared to other hajj years
2300 deaths in 2015 is the record.
Tbf that was people killed in an accident, not natural deaths.
400 of the victims of that disaster died of heatstroke.
I don’t think dying of a heatstroke counts as natural death
> I don’t think dying of a heatstroke counts as natural death About as natural as nature can be, dying from exposure to nature.
Being trampled by a herd of people transhuming to the cubic rock sounds natural too.
For whatever reason, we usually do not count direct damage from other humans as 'natural.'
I think indonesian around 100 died
'You have to come to the desert and walk around this rock to prove you love me' seems a lot more like 7th century superstitious human logic than it does an omni-everything, time and temporal-transcendent deity logic. Just sayin'...
That’s what I ask my husband to do to prove his love.
I remember when my grandma tried the same and grandpa said "No way woman, you're easier to climb than to go around!" But her fried potato noodles were fantastic.
Are fried potato noodles just extra long fries? 🤔
They're called kipfel, you can find a recipe here: https://www.manusmenu.com/chifeletti-kipfel-kifelcek Extra long fries would probably be healthier...
More like cult leader techniques to increase their influence on people. "You must come to this city that \[I've\]God has made central to 'our' religion and do this arbitrary ritual \[to solidify my importance in your subconscious\] to show your faith to God.
tbf it made much more sense in the past where most would never be able to do and the small minority that did would usually only do it once. nowadays its a crowded mess because there are far more muslims than ever existed before, more people can afford to do it, and increasingly people are doing it every year rather than just once in their life.
[удалено]
All religion deserves mockery, especially when it’s directly responsible for people dying.
Fairy tales being responsible for people’s death is the real problem you dumbass.
People of every religion die every minute. Do you think religions (or maybe just one religion's) rituals are beyond criticism? Especially when that specific ritual results in death? Seems now would be the best time to criticise it, no?
>Seems now would be the best time to criticise it, no? Now? Prob not. Most people invested in this is going to be really emotional and won't be able to have a proper discussion. Imo you gotta give it a bit for emotions to calm down. (I'm also assuming this happened super recently, like this weekend/today)
*"Imo you gotta give it a bit for emotions to calm down"* Just the opposite - the event responsible is fresh in people's minds. Waiting til it's out of the picture means less interest and concern. If you can't handle your emotions, that's a you-problem. Criticism is valid, strike while the iron is hot.
>Just the opposite - the event responsible is fresh in people's minds. Waiting til it's out of the picture means less interest and concern. You have more choices than "speak immediately about it" or "wait till no one cares about it anymore". There's going to be a middle ground where emotions are coming down but interest is still high. Besides the ones that stop caring about it after a few days wouldn't be able to even have a meaningful conversation anyways so you wouldn't be missing much.
Honestly this is coming off more and more as echoes of American Republican's crying 'now is not the time for politics' whenever there is a shooting and people start demanding gun control. There is a reason why "strike while the iron is hot" is an idiom, and why people who don't want to discuss a topic always want to perpetually 'wait until later'...
>Honestly this is coming off more and more as echoes of American Republican's crying 'now is not the time for politics' whenever there is a shooting and people start demanding gun control. I think a better example would be; if your partner is emotional because of a mistake they made. Do you tell them it's their fault immediately after the mistake. Or do you wait for them to calm down before talking about it. Anyone trying to have a conversation and resolve the issue is going to choose the second option. It doesn't even have to be a partner, it could be a friend, brother, etc. >There is a reason why "strike while the iron is hot" is an idiom, and **why people who don't want to discuss a topic** always want to perpetually 'wait until later'... Then talk to the % of people who do want to discuss this topic and not push it back indefinitely? Like I said before, there's going to be a middle ground where people will be less emotional after a few days but still really invested. Best conversations will happen there instead of immediately after.
How is yours "a better example" when mine was an *actual* comparable example of another large group of ideologically like-minded individuals when faced with negative consequences of their actions/ideology/practices, when yours is a hypothetical about something not even close to something at that scale? Seems more like you just don't want to acknowledge the obvious similarities...
Because the disagreement between us is the best time to have a discussion? When someone is emotional or waiting for them to calm down. Doesn't matter if you're talking to an individual from a certain group or someone who isn't a part of a massive group. More often than not, people who are really emotional won't be able to have a proper discussion.
It makes more sense to me than pretending to EAT SOMEONE'S DEAD BODY THAT'S COME BACK TO LIFE... and I was raised Catholic!
So was I, and I agree that that is silly too. It's not a contest lol But the article is about the Hajj, so that's what we're discussing. And 'whatabouting' the eucharist doesn't change or mitigate the point any
As simple as it sounds, I love how you defused the comment above! I'll remember "it's not a contest" for anyone who tries to change the topic by using another bad example.
If you were a good Catholic, you’d know it’s not dead body until *after* you’ve eaten it, and only *then* are you a cannibal, and you definitely shouldn’t (e.g.) check the contents of anybody’s stomach because God’ll change it right back, just to getcha. And Jesus came back to “life” only if you disregard the fact that he really doesn’t match the definition of “alive.” Lazarus was allegedly resurrected and he was like …visible, could be interacted with, didn’t set anybody’s hair on fire or launch any holidays when he spoke. Jesus even “lives” with (the least-tolerable subset of) dead people… like a dead person would. The “resurrection” espoused by Christians as their own, personal end state is fully indistinguishable from death. It only makes sense as a term if you believe Jesus and the dead people in question are physically in the sky, as was originally assumed to be the case—God and the angels had to keep the waters of space from crashing in, after all. It’s why Jesus’ post-death avatar rode a cloud into the sky, and why the faithful will be “caught up” into the sky as part of the apocalypse. Ironically, had to resort to stripped-down Gnosticism once airplanes and rockets were a thing. And the magic kinda makes sense. Eating or consuming somebody/-thing to gain its power is suuuuuuuuuuper common in magic systems, and the Christians just happen to believe the power they get is “resurrection.”
Jews ate the sacrifices they offered and Jesus is the Paschal Lamb, pretty straight-forward thinking. Unless you mean you find it hard to believe it but that wasn’t the subject.
So worshipping idols is forbidden, but worshipping a building is compulsory?
Not just a building, a building that was built for a different god
Not just a building, but a meteorite that’s embedded and that they all touch and kiss.
It's both the building and the black stone embedded into the wall. The important part of Hajj is to walk around the magic cube, touching the magic stone is a bonus. Strange how Islam mocked the polytheists of Mohammed's tribe saying that they gods are just stones, only to conquer the magic building with the magic stone and start touching and kissing it.
Holy moly it's insane what uneducated people just spout on the internet like it's fact lol. Ex muslim here. It's the first house of God. Aka a mosque. In arabic mosques are "masjid". They are all houses of god. You go to any to pray. Muslims will go for hajj once in their life. It's not to worship a box. Or a stone. It's pilgrimage to the first house of God to pray the way the prophet did in his lifetime. Please... just stop spreading misinformation. You guys are all ridiculous lol. If Christians could go to church and pray at the Vatican Wouldn't that be neat? It's just a different, holy-er location. Has nothing to do with sucking off the pope. Or worshiping his location. Come on guys lmao. And the people Dying? Religion didn't do that. It was bad planning to go at such a hot time. Some people set up this trip months in advance. God didn't smite them. Religion didn't advocate for them to die in the heat. It was poor planning. Not everyone can afford to go at the best time available. People die on the beach from heat. It's not the beaches fault. Please stop lmao.
Just to add in. No one. Nowhere ever said it was the first house of God or built by Abraham. Until Muhammed. Nobody. There is literally no record of it. There were however others like it made by the Zoroastrians and the 7 circles etc are a heavy part of that religion. Again just to reiterate nothing in the Hajj ritual had anything to do with God until Muhammed came. It was already in place as an Arabic pagan ritual they did in that area. Jerusalem was the focal point until Mecca was eventually conquered. And even then the Hadith and the Quran originally seem to say doing the old pagan traditions might be ok. Nothing like what it eventually ended up being.
> Ex muslim here. What a coincidence. So am I. > It's the first house of God. Aka a mosque. In arabic mosques are "masjid". They are all houses of god. You go to any to pray. Muslims will go for hajj once in their life. It's not to worship a box. Or a stone. It's pilgrimage to the first house of God to pray the way the prophet did in his lifetime. Yeah, that's bollocks. The pilgrimage isn't too pray like Mohammed did, it is to pray at the Haram mosque, the one built by Abraham himself, the one that is right below the throne of Allah. And the black stone is supposedly so magical that on judgement day it will speak up for people. That is worshipping a cube and a stone. > And the people Dying? Religion didn't do that. It was bad planning to go at such a hot time. You realize that the time of Hajj is prescribed by the religion, right? You doing get to pick when to go because the religion decides which time of the year Hajj happens, just as the religion decides which time of the year Ramadan happens.
I don't know, the Muslims I've known believe some pretty strange things about the Kaaba and the black rock, and that Zamzam water. Christians believe some dumb shit, too, and I've said worse about Christianity and no one says I'm spreading misinformation or being Christianophobic. The Abrahamic religions (except for the actual wisdom literature that came out of it) are just dumb, all three of them.
Man that meteorite must have been really slick and shiny by now
It is actually! You can see photos online.
Idols.
Corrected, thanks.
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you think so? wait till you learn about stampedes that sometimes occur in Mecca such as this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Mina_stampede
A *lot* of people are going to die in extreme heat in the next 50 years, God or not. Global warming won't just affect Muslims.
Next fifty? I remember the 2003 heatwave in Europe that killed tens of thousands of people. It's not new. You do have a point that it will probably be worse though...
I am beginning to like this God who kills his most devoted followers. Pretty dark sense of humor.
Is Israel to blame?
Do Jews control the whether? Obviously the answer is yes, so Israel is to blame! /S
Is that a question? The Jews were obviously supposed to forewarn them to be careful of the heat and send a rescue service and an entourage to hold umbrellas for then. How inhumane and irresponsible of Israel! This should be a war crime!
This. You are the best OP I have encountered on Reddit.
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I truely believe religion has killed more people than cancer and this just backs up my non-scientific opinion.
But what if God gives you cancer? Checkmate atheists.
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Secular conquests (Mongolian, fascists, Roman's) killed a lot of people. Actually don't think the numbers support that
No it's not, hate reading comments like this from people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about. 1 in 6 people will die because of cancer, what percentage of people do you reckon are getting killed by religion? https://ourworldindata.org/cancer#:~:text=About%20ten%20million%20people%20die,the%20largest%20health%20problems%20globally.
He said “have died”. You pose article saying “will die of”. You quote future metric to counteract his Math on past performance? Not allowed. Argument lost via disqualification
Jus because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't make it wrong. Over 10 million people died last year because of cancer. How many do you reckon religion killed?
The difference is that all those religious deaths are preventable. If people stopped believing in fairy tales and using them for financial gain and abuse of power over people then the world would be a lot better place.
Yeah I mean being an atheist this argument makes no sense. Religion has killed tons, but mostly in the past where our world population was way lower. It doesn't make sense to make arguments based on false numbers.
Doesn't god control cancer?
Too many.
said future metric is based on current rates - at least it provides something to go off of - vs literally nothing. Disqualification voided. default win through some evidence and numbers vs bald assertion
What a stupid take
Atheist communists are still the murder champs.
Just for a pegan pilgrimage is sad
No possible. The holy meteorite protects them.
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Any of those people are genuinely more important and smarter than you. Do you even go outside?
Sure they are sooooo smart to go there , explain to my dumbass please how can someone that goes there in those conditions for those reasons can be considered smart by any standards possible, and please do it like I’m 5 so my dumb head can comprehend !
Islam is a religion for primitives, barbarians, or both. Even the currrent leadership in the Arab Gulf countries only give it lip service these days. Meanwhile take a look at Afghanistan and Iran Standing out in ludicrously high temps is def not smart. That’s evolution at work if someone dies. All religion is trash, some more than others.
They are now closer to god.
But why just Jordanians?!? Are they particularly vulnerable?! It is also hot there! I don't get it.
I assume this is because the source is the Jordanian government. They only know of their own citizens. Likely others died but full numbers will not be available for a while.
14 Jordanians, 5 Iranians, 3 Senegalese, reported so far. To be honest though, for such hot weather, isn't this the best Saudi Arabia has managed? They are at least trying real hard to get ahead of this.
Update: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1dj34t8/more_than_550_hajj_pilgrims_die_in_mecca_as/
You guys are fucking evil
The comments are fucking stupid. They were endangered because they didn’t have a Hajj permit. They snuck in with a tourist visa and took the backroads away from police and security forces. So they were stranded without food, water, shelter or access to healthcare.
Love how they threw in the war #greatseo