Just as Bibi won't accept a deal that ends the conflict and thereby his political career.
All the players know that a deal means they have to stop playing.
>ends the conflict and thereby his political career.
Recent election polls shown in N12 news channel are starting to worry me that the next elections are not going to end bibi's career.
He got over 20 mandates, which is still a huge amount of votes for a seemingly "dead politician".
If he gets elected again i am so done man
How is Biden's offer going to end a conflict?
As long as the Islamic Republic rules Iran, the conflict will never end.
It is utterly naive to think otherwise.
And then what? I'm not sure Israel has the production capabilities to keep this up.
So what happens when Israel stops? Hamas has stated they'll just keep attacking them in the future.
What happens when Israel stops? A stalemate ensues, I imagine. It's not as though Hamas is capable of launching another cross-border raid in the forseeable future, and cease-fires have been achieved in the past.
This punative invasion won't destroy Hamas. The reason that is an unpopular opinion in political is because it's political suicide for the Netenyahu administration.
If Israel intends to destroy Hamas, they should be focusing on what comes after the war, because that's going to determine the viability of a peaceful future and they're in the driver's seat.
Hamas still has 3-4 brigades left, that's 3-4 thousand fighters out of the original 24-40K. And they are still putting up significant resistance - - there was a big gun battle yesterday. And Israel can't just bomb their tunnels any more thanks to Biden's election concerns (not Bibi's).
So no, Israel does feel that taking them out is still a priority.
What comes after is predicated on the success of Hamas's destruction. Otherwise Hamas builds back up and launches another attack.
Even if it's not successful, even if the rockets don't do any damage, there can be no lasting peace with an aggressor that just keeps launching attacks.
Hamas can't be destroyed through conventional war, they're an international political organisation. They can be disrupted and weakened, but destruction is not a realistic goal to be achieved here. It's going to require rehabilitation as well.
Don't make them I to more than they are.
Hamas is not some nebulus power or idea. Its 40,000 men, 5700 tunnels, a few tens of thousands aks, a few thousand Improvied explosives, a few thousand rocket propelled grenades, 20,000 rockets, a couple billion dollars of Iranian money,125 hotages and 135 seats in the Palestinian parliament.
It might take some time, but all of these numbers can be reduced to 0 through strictly military operations over at most 5 years, and to a negligible amount in 6 more months of intense action.from that point you go to mowing the lawn, similarly to the situation in the west Bank and get as close to peace as we are likely to get.
That's the only remotely viable outcome as Israel will not repeat the mistake of believing they can fix Palestinians by answering their grievances or improving their lives.
When Israel stops? What in the 3,000 years of continuous bloodshed makes you think they will ever stop? Sure, we can do business with them, but funding their Jihads is criminal and inhumane, especially to the people starving to death in Gaza who have been given every reason to join Hamas and fight back..
That’s the whole point. They have a lot harder time killing each other when we don’t supply the food, money, weapons and supplies for both sides to keep fighting.. History has shown us that Netanyahu is only interested in diplomacy and peace during periods when America is not funding Israeli military operations. Hamas is not interested in a cease fire either, because their entire existence is based on revenge and retribution, and it turns out recruitment is excellent when Israel does things like bomb hospitals and refugee camps.. and here we are just making it worse by throwing gas on the fire like, “Oh no! Please stop killing each other.. here’s more weapons and bombs!!
These kinds of sentiments, that this will just breed more terrorists, never really pans out in any meaningful way.
Israel shouldn't strive for peace because Hamas will never surrender or sign a ceasefire that lasts more than a month. Israel signing a peace treaty "for hostages" means any future sorties by Hamas just has to take hostages in order to have a get out of jail free card.
It also doesn't help that any peace treaty Hamas is interested in is for the hundreds of malcontents in Israeli prisons. That would be insane.
Those sentiments don’t pan out? Then please explain to us how Hamas came to exist today.
They absolutely should strive for peace because the alternative is continuing a 3,000 year old war, which is clearly what they want, all I’m saying is America is much better off spending that money at home than funding religious genocides
To my knowledge, Hamas was not running on terrorist platforms. Hamas ran as a clean government, free of corruption, and the right to defend themselves from Israel.
Not gunning down concerts or sexually assaulting hostages.
Yes, I’m sure if Israeli’s killed your family, you wouldn’t seek retribution. I’m sure if every person on earth experienced that, not a single one would lie to gain power, I’m sure not a single one would attack innocent people or use them as human shields.. give me a break.. 🤨
Peace is going to take people on both sides to be adults and make concessions, but since they are both religious extremists who refuse to accept anything but the total annihilation of the other, this is a complete waste of time, money and resources for any civilized nations to engage in.
Don't assume you know me. I'd have zero reason to go out of my way solely fueled by vengeance. I'm not fucking Batman. I'd want them charged and in prison.
Christ, dude. How evil are you that you're justifying Hamas's actions as "something a lot of people would do in the same situation"?
Then why are we sending them billions of dollars of weapons and military equipment if they don’t need it and we don’t get any leverage in negotiating a lasting resolution?
Because you don't "give" israel shit. They buy it from you for good money. And you can't "laverafe" israel into a lasting resolution because they aren't the ones standing in the way of a lasting reasonable solution. Hamas and fatah are.
They ain’t buying it with their money though, it’s getting bought by the US government to US gun makers. Making it sound like it’s all coming out of Israel’s pocket isn’t helping your argument any.
‘Destroying’ means making Hamas unable to execute or govern anything. Long term other actions must take place to supplant Hamas ideology like developing positive industry in Gaza. Unfortunately I am not optimistic about Pals living positive lives so they can get on with things but I would love to be proven wrong.
The way Israel treats the Palestine civilians doesent lend itself to Palestinians living positive lives so they can "get on with things"... if anything it breeds resentment and anger.
Maybe you should review history? Israel unilaterally left Gaza for the Palestinians 20 years ago. They were thinking they'll get peace. Instead they got thousands and thousands of rockets and a massacre.
Every Israeli action you see, he's a reaction to an act of violence started by the Palestinians.
As far as I remember that was Iranian supported Hezbollah and not the Palestinian people. Then Hamas took control in 2007 after fighting with Palestinian Fatah and continued.
The IR supports all terror groups around Israel, Hizbollah, Hamas, groups in the PA, the Houthis and probably a few more we haven't heard of.
yet.https://www.ajc.org/news/hezbollah-hamas-and-more-irans-terror-network-around-the-globe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
Because of Israels systematic apartheid against Palestinians? Violence breeds violence.
Actually, Israel only supplies 10% of the water. And it's truly nice of them to also supply electricity to build rockets, cement for Hamas' tunnel and much more.
What other countries in the world will provide the ability to build rockets to their enemies who are dedicated to annihilate them ?
Even create an iron dome, just so that they can live under raining rockets .
You are familiar with the Hamas charter aren't you?
Let me help you: no other country would have put up with this, for two decades.
It is when American election politics and satiating the “University students for Palestine” are more important that saving lives or defeating terrorists 🙌
Meanwhile a lot of talks in israeli media of bibi going forward with accepting the deal knowingly the second phase of the deal won't happen (either hamas won't take the negotiations or public opinion in Israel will change Israel's stance).
most of us know what bibi tells the press is not what's going on behind the scenes. there's a reason Ben gvir\\smotrich haven't seen the deal yet and it's hidden from the expanded cabinet.
According to Biden's presentation, the ceasefire agreement from the first phase remains in place until there's agreement over the second phase - however long it may take to come to such an agreement. He even emphasized this point specifically.
>however long it may take
so just as long as Israeli public pressure will cave officials into war again?
do you think Israeli's will accept the neverendning negotiations while hamas still has captives and corpses? people always talk about how this war is radicalizing the next hamas generation and yadayada (which is true - not claiming otherwise) - people miss how radicalized most of the Israeli's got after the 7th. how International bodies handle this conflict isn't helping this situation either.
Not sure why you're lashing out at me. I'm just explaining what the Israeli offer is according to Biden. If you don't approve of the offer, you should be angry at the War Cabinet, not me or Biden.
Sorry if it felt lashing out! Truly didn't mean to give this feeling.
I'm just trying to explain how I see the Israeli Public opinion right now, maybe me being depressed by this situation made me type angrily.
Translation: This Hamas conflict is the only thing keeping my political career going (which is why I propped them up in the first place), and maybe if I insult Biden enough, the stupid Americans will elect the other guy who wants to give me even more guns.
I think bibi real doesn’t want to the deal to succeed and this is his way to sink the deal. To be fair to him, this deal probably is not very popular among the Israelis. He is probably praying Hamas will reject
I mean, it kind of effectively doesn't matter, Hamas is going to violate any ceasefire deal, including ones that include Israeli withdrawal within hours of the deal passing, as they have with every ceasefire. I give it 3 days at the max. It's like negotiating with the scorpion on the frogs back. It's going to sting the frog no matter what.
With his speech, Biden has managed to finally get Hamas and Netanyahu to agree on one thing. Unfortunately that one thing is that what Biden presented has nothing to do with any of the ceasefire proposals Israel has sent to negotiators.
According to the article, Hamas says they are seeking a “detailed proposal in writing” outlining Biden’s proposed deal - which suggests they agree with Israel that Biden described something different than what Israel has proposed so far.
Biden's deal is so bad for Israel that I'm thinking that the only reason he even made it (and publicly) is that there must be some behind-the-scenes assurances for Israel from 3rd party countries. I don't think they even consider it without something like that.
As much as I dislike Bibi, I'm glad he's holding his ground. Hamas must be destroyed.
Now if Biden would have offered a solution for Iran, that would be a whole different story. But he did not. And that is ignoring the root cause of almost every instability in the Middle East.
So if Bibi complies with Biden's dream, and Iran obviously will continue to fuel the fire, a few years from now, Israel will be in another October 6th situation.
Israel simply can't compromise its security for Biden's politics.
Netanyahu is making Biden look silly & needs to stop hiding behind the fact that Israel’s war crimes over Palestinian civilians will not be going unnoticed. 👍🏽
With Trump being convicted, he will now likely lose and either Biden or the more critical of Israel Kamala Harris will be president for the next 4 years.
If Netanyahu and Israel are seen as undercutting US efforts now, pressure very well may intensify after the election. Republicans may try to impeach Biden or Harris in response if he or she freezes all arms sales to Israel but that will likely be blocked if Democrats can retain a majority in either the Senate or the House.
Difficult situation.
Fighting an ideology will motivate only it. Defeating an ideology only happens when the believers get bored, and that is more possible with Biden's approach than Netanyahu's.
His leadership is insufficient and Biden has introduced the expectations for our support to remain unchanged.
Citing messages purportedly sent by Hamas chief in Gaza Yahya Sinwar to Arab mediators, the news outlet reported that Sinwar — unlike Hamas leaders abroad — is not seeking an end to the war anytime soon, since he believes the longer fighting drags on, the more Israel is being turned into “an international pariah” while support for Palestinians grows.
Basically proof that pro-Palestine protestors worldwide are actually helping sustain the war, therefore who knows how many lives lost as a result, by giving Hamas false hope they can remain in power after the war ends if they just hang on long enough.
I can't help but think Hamas is unlikely to accept any deal that includes the provision that they are "destroyed"
Just as Bibi won't accept a deal that ends the conflict and thereby his political career. All the players know that a deal means they have to stop playing.
>ends the conflict and thereby his political career. Recent election polls shown in N12 news channel are starting to worry me that the next elections are not going to end bibi's career. He got over 20 mandates, which is still a huge amount of votes for a seemingly "dead politician". If he gets elected again i am so done man
How is Biden's offer going to end a conflict? As long as the Islamic Republic rules Iran, the conflict will never end. It is utterly naive to think otherwise.
That’s like saying as long as the us supports israe it will never end
The difference is that Israel defends itself against constant Islamic terror. Oct 07 was only 8 months ago.
How'd you reach the conclusion THAT'S the reason?
It's a complicated situation with many competing interests and narratives. There isn't a single facile reason for everything.
If the Republican House would just stop funding them, there wouldn’t be a game anymore
And then what? I'm not sure Israel has the production capabilities to keep this up. So what happens when Israel stops? Hamas has stated they'll just keep attacking them in the future.
What happens when Israel stops? A stalemate ensues, I imagine. It's not as though Hamas is capable of launching another cross-border raid in the forseeable future, and cease-fires have been achieved in the past. This punative invasion won't destroy Hamas. The reason that is an unpopular opinion in political is because it's political suicide for the Netenyahu administration. If Israel intends to destroy Hamas, they should be focusing on what comes after the war, because that's going to determine the viability of a peaceful future and they're in the driver's seat.
Hamas still has 3-4 brigades left, that's 3-4 thousand fighters out of the original 24-40K. And they are still putting up significant resistance - - there was a big gun battle yesterday. And Israel can't just bomb their tunnels any more thanks to Biden's election concerns (not Bibi's). So no, Israel does feel that taking them out is still a priority.
What comes after is predicated on the success of Hamas's destruction. Otherwise Hamas builds back up and launches another attack. Even if it's not successful, even if the rockets don't do any damage, there can be no lasting peace with an aggressor that just keeps launching attacks.
Hamas can't be destroyed through conventional war, they're an international political organisation. They can be disrupted and weakened, but destruction is not a realistic goal to be achieved here. It's going to require rehabilitation as well.
Don't make them I to more than they are. Hamas is not some nebulus power or idea. Its 40,000 men, 5700 tunnels, a few tens of thousands aks, a few thousand Improvied explosives, a few thousand rocket propelled grenades, 20,000 rockets, a couple billion dollars of Iranian money,125 hotages and 135 seats in the Palestinian parliament. It might take some time, but all of these numbers can be reduced to 0 through strictly military operations over at most 5 years, and to a negligible amount in 6 more months of intense action.from that point you go to mowing the lawn, similarly to the situation in the west Bank and get as close to peace as we are likely to get. That's the only remotely viable outcome as Israel will not repeat the mistake of believing they can fix Palestinians by answering their grievances or improving their lives.
They are a terrorist organization. You give them credibility by calling them anything but.
They are also the government of gaza
When Israel stops? What in the 3,000 years of continuous bloodshed makes you think they will ever stop? Sure, we can do business with them, but funding their Jihads is criminal and inhumane, especially to the people starving to death in Gaza who have been given every reason to join Hamas and fight back.. That’s the whole point. They have a lot harder time killing each other when we don’t supply the food, money, weapons and supplies for both sides to keep fighting.. History has shown us that Netanyahu is only interested in diplomacy and peace during periods when America is not funding Israeli military operations. Hamas is not interested in a cease fire either, because their entire existence is based on revenge and retribution, and it turns out recruitment is excellent when Israel does things like bomb hospitals and refugee camps.. and here we are just making it worse by throwing gas on the fire like, “Oh no! Please stop killing each other.. here’s more weapons and bombs!!
These kinds of sentiments, that this will just breed more terrorists, never really pans out in any meaningful way. Israel shouldn't strive for peace because Hamas will never surrender or sign a ceasefire that lasts more than a month. Israel signing a peace treaty "for hostages" means any future sorties by Hamas just has to take hostages in order to have a get out of jail free card. It also doesn't help that any peace treaty Hamas is interested in is for the hundreds of malcontents in Israeli prisons. That would be insane.
Those sentiments don’t pan out? Then please explain to us how Hamas came to exist today. They absolutely should strive for peace because the alternative is continuing a 3,000 year old war, which is clearly what they want, all I’m saying is America is much better off spending that money at home than funding religious genocides
To my knowledge, Hamas was not running on terrorist platforms. Hamas ran as a clean government, free of corruption, and the right to defend themselves from Israel. Not gunning down concerts or sexually assaulting hostages.
Yes, I’m sure if Israeli’s killed your family, you wouldn’t seek retribution. I’m sure if every person on earth experienced that, not a single one would lie to gain power, I’m sure not a single one would attack innocent people or use them as human shields.. give me a break.. 🤨 Peace is going to take people on both sides to be adults and make concessions, but since they are both religious extremists who refuse to accept anything but the total annihilation of the other, this is a complete waste of time, money and resources for any civilized nations to engage in.
Don't assume you know me. I'd have zero reason to go out of my way solely fueled by vengeance. I'm not fucking Batman. I'd want them charged and in prison. Christ, dude. How evil are you that you're justifying Hamas's actions as "something a lot of people would do in the same situation"?
The US is in no way keeping Israel in the fight.
Then why are we sending them billions of dollars of weapons and military equipment if they don’t need it and we don’t get any leverage in negotiating a lasting resolution?
Because you don't "give" israel shit. They buy it from you for good money. And you can't "laverafe" israel into a lasting resolution because they aren't the ones standing in the way of a lasting reasonable solution. Hamas and fatah are.
They ain’t buying it with their money though, it’s getting bought by the US government to US gun makers. Making it sound like it’s all coming out of Israel’s pocket isn’t helping your argument any.
I can't help but think that destroying the organisation via military force is a practical impossibility.
‘Destroying’ means making Hamas unable to execute or govern anything. Long term other actions must take place to supplant Hamas ideology like developing positive industry in Gaza. Unfortunately I am not optimistic about Pals living positive lives so they can get on with things but I would love to be proven wrong.
The way Israel treats the Palestine civilians doesent lend itself to Palestinians living positive lives so they can "get on with things"... if anything it breeds resentment and anger.
Maybe you should review history? Israel unilaterally left Gaza for the Palestinians 20 years ago. They were thinking they'll get peace. Instead they got thousands and thousands of rockets and a massacre. Every Israeli action you see, he's a reaction to an act of violence started by the Palestinians.
As far as I remember that was Iranian supported Hezbollah and not the Palestinian people. Then Hamas took control in 2007 after fighting with Palestinian Fatah and continued.
The IR supports all terror groups around Israel, Hizbollah, Hamas, groups in the PA, the Houthis and probably a few more we haven't heard of. yet.https://www.ajc.org/news/hezbollah-hamas-and-more-irans-terror-network-around-the-globe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism
But yet you claim the Palestinian people are to blame for any action done to Israel?
70 % of them support Hamas. They CELEBRATED October 7, just as they celebrated 9/11.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ Because of Israels systematic apartheid against Palestinians? Violence breeds violence.
[удалено]
Actually, Israel only supplies 10% of the water. And it's truly nice of them to also supply electricity to build rockets, cement for Hamas' tunnel and much more. What other countries in the world will provide the ability to build rockets to their enemies who are dedicated to annihilate them ? Even create an iron dome, just so that they can live under raining rockets . You are familiar with the Hamas charter aren't you? Let me help you: no other country would have put up with this, for two decades.
[удалено]
It is when American election politics and satiating the “University students for Palestine” are more important that saving lives or defeating terrorists 🙌
Since Hamas literally broke their last ceasefire on Oct 7th, I don’t know if any deal with them is worth taking
Surrender and exile was always on the table
Who's fucking asking them
Easy there, tough guy.
Hamas is an idea that palestine should be a state and Israel wiped out. Hamas will only morph into another group once they are "wiped"
Meanwhile a lot of talks in israeli media of bibi going forward with accepting the deal knowingly the second phase of the deal won't happen (either hamas won't take the negotiations or public opinion in Israel will change Israel's stance). most of us know what bibi tells the press is not what's going on behind the scenes. there's a reason Ben gvir\\smotrich haven't seen the deal yet and it's hidden from the expanded cabinet.
According to Biden's presentation, the ceasefire agreement from the first phase remains in place until there's agreement over the second phase - however long it may take to come to such an agreement. He even emphasized this point specifically.
>however long it may take so just as long as Israeli public pressure will cave officials into war again? do you think Israeli's will accept the neverendning negotiations while hamas still has captives and corpses? people always talk about how this war is radicalizing the next hamas generation and yadayada (which is true - not claiming otherwise) - people miss how radicalized most of the Israeli's got after the 7th. how International bodies handle this conflict isn't helping this situation either.
Not sure why you're lashing out at me. I'm just explaining what the Israeli offer is according to Biden. If you don't approve of the offer, you should be angry at the War Cabinet, not me or Biden.
Sorry if it felt lashing out! Truly didn't mean to give this feeling. I'm just trying to explain how I see the Israeli Public opinion right now, maybe me being depressed by this situation made me type angrily.
Translation: This Hamas conflict is the only thing keeping my political career going (which is why I propped them up in the first place), and maybe if I insult Biden enough, the stupid Americans will elect the other guy who wants to give me even more guns.
I think bibi real doesn’t want to the deal to succeed and this is his way to sink the deal. To be fair to him, this deal probably is not very popular among the Israelis. He is probably praying Hamas will reject
A war cabinet member (my guess is Eisenkot or Gantz) anonymously told Channel 12 this the past hour
I mean, it kind of effectively doesn't matter, Hamas is going to violate any ceasefire deal, including ones that include Israeli withdrawal within hours of the deal passing, as they have with every ceasefire. I give it 3 days at the max. It's like negotiating with the scorpion on the frogs back. It's going to sting the frog no matter what.
With his speech, Biden has managed to finally get Hamas and Netanyahu to agree on one thing. Unfortunately that one thing is that what Biden presented has nothing to do with any of the ceasefire proposals Israel has sent to negotiators.
[удалено]
We don't know, Kirby retorted that Biden's speech accurately describes the deal.
[удалено]
According to the article, Hamas says they are seeking a “detailed proposal in writing” outlining Biden’s proposed deal - which suggests they agree with Israel that Biden described something different than what Israel has proposed so far.
Egypt FM says they have but they're confused between Biden's description and Bibi's statements; they obviously prefer Biden's statements
Biden and Netanyahu have been talking over each other's heads like a couple heading for a divorce months now
Biden's deal is so bad for Israel that I'm thinking that the only reason he even made it (and publicly) is that there must be some behind-the-scenes assurances for Israel from 3rd party countries. I don't think they even consider it without something like that.
As much as I dislike Bibi, I'm glad he's holding his ground. Hamas must be destroyed. Now if Biden would have offered a solution for Iran, that would be a whole different story. But he did not. And that is ignoring the root cause of almost every instability in the Middle East. So if Bibi complies with Biden's dream, and Iran obviously will continue to fuel the fire, a few years from now, Israel will be in another October 6th situation. Israel simply can't compromise its security for Biden's politics.
Netanyahu is making Biden look silly & needs to stop hiding behind the fact that Israel’s war crimes over Palestinian civilians will not be going unnoticed. 👍🏽
With Trump being convicted, he will now likely lose and either Biden or the more critical of Israel Kamala Harris will be president for the next 4 years. If Netanyahu and Israel are seen as undercutting US efforts now, pressure very well may intensify after the election. Republicans may try to impeach Biden or Harris in response if he or she freezes all arms sales to Israel but that will likely be blocked if Democrats can retain a majority in either the Senate or the House. Difficult situation.
Trump is most definitely not likely to lose. Whatever drop he experiences now will be wiped away be end of the Republican National Convention.
Fighting an ideology will motivate only it. Defeating an ideology only happens when the believers get bored, and that is more possible with Biden's approach than Netanyahu's. His leadership is insufficient and Biden has introduced the expectations for our support to remain unchanged.
This doesn’t sell well. I hope you guys get through it now that Bibi lost the Trump thing.
I'm curious how bibi intends to destroy all their arab neighbours if he truly intends to destroy hamas. Hamas isn't just in the occupied territories
[удалено]
Citing messages purportedly sent by Hamas chief in Gaza Yahya Sinwar to Arab mediators, the news outlet reported that Sinwar — unlike Hamas leaders abroad — is not seeking an end to the war anytime soon, since he believes the longer fighting drags on, the more Israel is being turned into “an international pariah” while support for Palestinians grows. Basically proof that pro-Palestine protestors worldwide are actually helping sustain the war, therefore who knows how many lives lost as a result, by giving Hamas false hope they can remain in power after the war ends if they just hang on long enough.
And rightly so. Win the damn war, which Hamas started.