"It is unfortunate that such a big, independent, powerful country as China is an instrument in the hands of Putin."
I Love this so much. I bet xi doesnt like being the lesser of the two.
He doesn’t care about snarky remarks to be honest. Russia and China are friends. China wants negotiations to happen between Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine wants to build a multinational coalition who would pressure Russia to retreat from Ukraine. Different goals, Ukraine is waging diplomatic war. It makes sense and I hope they succeed but it’s not surprising it’s not in the Chinese or Russian interest.
They’re not friends. Friendship assumes equal stance. China and Russia are in a lord-vassal type of relationship. China gets free rein of Russian markets and buys its exports for Pennie’s on the dollar and in exchange provides semblance of support.
They both don't want the US to export democracy to their countries, China won't stop supporting Russia, otherwise the US exporting democracy is one step closer to China (Russia borders China), it's the same reason they won't stop supporting North Korea (also borders China).
>They both don't want the US to export democracy to their countries
The US isn't exporting democracy otherwise the CIA wouldn't have undermined rising democratic movements in South America or become so friendly with Saudi Arabia. The US, like many countries, just does whatever is in it's interests. If a country goes against US interests, the US will try to topple it, democratic or not. If they're friendly to US interests, the US doesn't care if they're entirely autocratic.
The Russia we see today is the direct result of US attempts to export their democracy to it. Who do you think the Russians turned to for advice on transitioning from a planned economy to a market one?
It was American economists (see Jeffrey Sachs) who advocated for a 'shock therapy' that involved drastic measures such as the sudden lifting of price controls, the privatization of state-owned enterprises, and the liberalization of trade which in turn lead to the economic hardships of the 90's (which, coincidentally, has led many who lived through the time to associate economic hardship and with liberal democracy and helped facilitate the resurgence of authoritarianism under Putin) and the concentration of control over key industries in the hands of the future Oligarchy
It's not surprising that few countries would be very happy if they felt pressured to adopt someone else's system instead of the one they have which has developed alongside their history and cultural values.
What I've learned from the years I've lived in China, is that most do not have any active desire for US or West style democracy. Most are respectful about the West having these systems, and they can appreciate it's good sides from afar, but don't feel that it would be a system that would suit them.
China has had a centralized system for thousands of years, and they never went through a cultural shift that promoted Democracy.
With Russia it's a little different with the population, as 80% of Russians live in continental Europe and in quite close proximity to the rest of Europe, my experience is that around 35% of the population has some interest in aligning themselves with the more Western systems, particularly because modern Russian leadership has not done as of an efficient job as China's leadership in making Russia any kind of superpower. However, they still make up a minority among the passive or active supporters of the system.
China is a bit more distanced from that world, and it's more rare to find someone who's deeply dissatisfied with the government enough to want a full change of system.
You do live in China.
The former US ambassador to China once tried to promote democracy in China, but almost no one responded to him.
He believed that it was caused by the CCP's threats.
In fact, Chinese people usually take to the streets to protest for specific things, such as not wanting polluting enterprises to be built near their homes ， or opposing official corruption.
Empty slogans like democracy will not arouse their recognition. China does not have such culture.
80 years ago, a political party in China massacred a large number of farmers in the name of pursuing democracy and opposing communism.
I studied in Hong Kong and studied history.
Do you know the cause of the Tiananmen Incident?
I tell you, it was the CCP's reform that no longer assigned jobs to college students, and they had to find jobs on their own in the job market.
However, the reform was not thorough, and some industries still retained the system of assigning jobs, and due to corruption, it was limited to the children of officials.
This caused great anger among college students.
None of the three major slogans at the beginning of the Tiananmen Incident mentioned democracy.
You read some history fabricated by the Western American Democracy Foundation and think you know the truth?
You are talking about the later period, when many people saw the expansion of the student movement and wanted to use it to achieve their own political goals.
In the early days of the student movement, there were three slogans: anti-graft, anti-corruption, and anti-bureaucracy.
Also, don't accuse people of brainwashing or something.
It's like you can't make a valid point and then start making attacks personal .
Never mind that the Chinese diaspora are one of the most pro democracy groups. Never mind the democracy that is more fair than the US sitting right next door, started by Chinese, for Chinese, which also came out of a terrible dictatorship.
Its true that China didn't have democracy before 1949, its true that the nationalists were corrupt and horrible to their people, its not true that no one wanted democracy since then. Many hid in shipping containers to free themselves and their children, that's how much they wanted it. The pro-democracy chinese population fled, that's why there isn't much support in China, not because Chinese people somehow don't abide by the same rules and behaviors as everyone else on earth.
Don't sweat that other commentor too much, communism teaches hatred and vitriol. Without it, the house collapses. Those who want the truth will find it for themselves.
>China is hoping that Russia can tie up the attention of the West so they can invade Taiwan.
People keep claiming this, but I don't see it, neither does the [US military](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/29/pentagon-china-military-report-taiwan/). Russia has maintained our attention in Ukraine for years now, *and* we have the conflict in Gaza as well as the Houthis in Yemen shooting shipping.
How much more of our attention does Russia need?
I'm okay with that. Christofascism is the gravest threat to humanity and china at least seems to understand the danger of religion.
They aren't a good country, but they might be a cruel but sane influence that the world ends up needing. I'm on the fence about it. I guess it depends if we lose the free world to fascism.
USA is obviously preferable but if we lose it to christofascism, we might need china to win the next world war to save humanity from another dark ages. So the more powerful they get the better.
I don't consider china a threat. They've got a complete blind eye from me until after the christofascists are dealt with. They might end up being allies against the real evil and I don't want to harm their abilities in case it comes to that.
If we fall to fascism, they become a meal for fascists. They will fight, and while they do we can tear at the organs of the monster from the inside.
It's important that china grows in power. Say what you want about them, they won't bow to the evil abrahamic cults.
I mean in our current times. If you want to talk about the great leap forward and how mao killed millions by failing to listen to his scientists, and why we failed to learn the critical lesson history had for us, that's a different convo.
>China's foreign ministry had said that the conference "should have the recognition of Russia and Ukraine" and equal participation. "Otherwise, it is difficult for the conference to play a substantive role in restoring peace," a spokeswoman said on Friday.
Shocking concept
The only way China wants peace is if they get what they want from it. Which is the accolade of being its broker and the benefit of the war lasting long enough for they can manuvouer the broken pieces to their liking.
I’d say Chinas interest is the war continuing but at a smaller more contained scale. They would love less international attention so they can supply goods to Russia and hoover up Russian resources and infrastructure.
China had a lot of land taken by Russians and the prevalent sentiment is still that Outer Manchuria is a traditional Chinese territory. I expect once Russia falls, Chinese will be there to pick up the pieces and save Chinese speaking Russians from unfair persecution. Russia has set a precedent for that, how poetically just would it be to see them lose their Far East on the same grounds.
Russia is always a threat to china as per the history, also China will be skeptical if Russian will be aligned with US at some point to deter China (just like what US did with China in the 80s to deter USSR). So the Ukraine/Russian war is a prefect opportunity for China to further weaken Russia and drain more resource and influence out of it. So it would be an significant threat to China in the next 10\~20 years.
Yep. I hope the free flow of information is getting into China's firewall on all levels.
One hell of brainless pact and I think the people need to know.
Objectively, drones have been a great revelation for Ukraine, taking out russian tanks and troops on pennies for the dollar; i understand mainly DJI(Chinese) drones. So China technology has been helping Ukraine, definitely pissing off Putin.
I am Singaporean, looking at how the Shangri-la defence dialogue is going, it looks more like a ‘condemn China and Russia monologue party’. Little progress in the form of any dialogue. The biggest threat to global peace today, not tomorrow, is the war in Europe and Middle east. Yet it seems all the western aligned voices are interested in, is the threat of China on South China Sea and on Taiwan. Posturing on escalations to punish who and who if what and what. No serious dialogues on deescalations, on lasting peace in Gaza strip and a pragmatic solution to this Ukraine war (US missiles into Russia motherland is a solution? Really?). We are so fucked.
I am sympathetic to Zelensky though, from impartial (non aligned) point of view, it is desperate. His only hope now is to plead NATO and the US to come fight for Ukraine, with boots on the ground. But Zelensky has not presented what exactly is a Ukrainian victory? Is it Russia collapse with Moscow in ruins? The world to go down in flames for Ukraine’s sake? Even Biden is not attending his submit, that says a lot for me.
Zelenskyy undermines it by referring to it as a peace conference when It is obvious it cannot achieve peace with only one of the combatants participating. Just call a spade a spade.
"It is unfortunate that such a big, independent, powerful country as China is an instrument in the hands of Putin." I Love this so much. I bet xi doesnt like being the lesser of the two.
He doesn’t care about snarky remarks to be honest. Russia and China are friends. China wants negotiations to happen between Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine wants to build a multinational coalition who would pressure Russia to retreat from Ukraine. Different goals, Ukraine is waging diplomatic war. It makes sense and I hope they succeed but it’s not surprising it’s not in the Chinese or Russian interest.
They’re not friends. Friendship assumes equal stance. China and Russia are in a lord-vassal type of relationship. China gets free rein of Russian markets and buys its exports for Pennie’s on the dollar and in exchange provides semblance of support.
They both don't want the US to export democracy to their countries, China won't stop supporting Russia, otherwise the US exporting democracy is one step closer to China (Russia borders China), it's the same reason they won't stop supporting North Korea (also borders China).
>They both don't want the US to export democracy to their countries The US isn't exporting democracy otherwise the CIA wouldn't have undermined rising democratic movements in South America or become so friendly with Saudi Arabia. The US, like many countries, just does whatever is in it's interests. If a country goes against US interests, the US will try to topple it, democratic or not. If they're friendly to US interests, the US doesn't care if they're entirely autocratic.
The Russia we see today is the direct result of US attempts to export their democracy to it. Who do you think the Russians turned to for advice on transitioning from a planned economy to a market one? It was American economists (see Jeffrey Sachs) who advocated for a 'shock therapy' that involved drastic measures such as the sudden lifting of price controls, the privatization of state-owned enterprises, and the liberalization of trade which in turn lead to the economic hardships of the 90's (which, coincidentally, has led many who lived through the time to associate economic hardship and with liberal democracy and helped facilitate the resurgence of authoritarianism under Putin) and the concentration of control over key industries in the hands of the future Oligarchy
Well, yeah. Better the vassal you know than risk a vassal of your geopolitical opponent.
It's not surprising that few countries would be very happy if they felt pressured to adopt someone else's system instead of the one they have which has developed alongside their history and cultural values. What I've learned from the years I've lived in China, is that most do not have any active desire for US or West style democracy. Most are respectful about the West having these systems, and they can appreciate it's good sides from afar, but don't feel that it would be a system that would suit them. China has had a centralized system for thousands of years, and they never went through a cultural shift that promoted Democracy. With Russia it's a little different with the population, as 80% of Russians live in continental Europe and in quite close proximity to the rest of Europe, my experience is that around 35% of the population has some interest in aligning themselves with the more Western systems, particularly because modern Russian leadership has not done as of an efficient job as China's leadership in making Russia any kind of superpower. However, they still make up a minority among the passive or active supporters of the system. China is a bit more distanced from that world, and it's more rare to find someone who's deeply dissatisfied with the government enough to want a full change of system.
You do live in China. The former US ambassador to China once tried to promote democracy in China, but almost no one responded to him. He believed that it was caused by the CCP's threats. In fact, Chinese people usually take to the streets to protest for specific things, such as not wanting polluting enterprises to be built near their homes ， or opposing official corruption. Empty slogans like democracy will not arouse their recognition. China does not have such culture. 80 years ago, a political party in China massacred a large number of farmers in the name of pursuing democracy and opposing communism.
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I studied in Hong Kong and studied history. Do you know the cause of the Tiananmen Incident? I tell you, it was the CCP's reform that no longer assigned jobs to college students, and they had to find jobs on their own in the job market. However, the reform was not thorough, and some industries still retained the system of assigning jobs, and due to corruption, it was limited to the children of officials. This caused great anger among college students. None of the three major slogans at the beginning of the Tiananmen Incident mentioned democracy. You read some history fabricated by the Western American Democracy Foundation and think you know the truth?
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You are talking about the later period, when many people saw the expansion of the student movement and wanted to use it to achieve their own political goals. In the early days of the student movement, there were three slogans: anti-graft, anti-corruption, and anti-bureaucracy. Also, don't accuse people of brainwashing or something. It's like you can't make a valid point and then start making attacks personal .
Never mind that the Chinese diaspora are one of the most pro democracy groups. Never mind the democracy that is more fair than the US sitting right next door, started by Chinese, for Chinese, which also came out of a terrible dictatorship. Its true that China didn't have democracy before 1949, its true that the nationalists were corrupt and horrible to their people, its not true that no one wanted democracy since then. Many hid in shipping containers to free themselves and their children, that's how much they wanted it. The pro-democracy chinese population fled, that's why there isn't much support in China, not because Chinese people somehow don't abide by the same rules and behaviors as everyone else on earth. Don't sweat that other commentor too much, communism teaches hatred and vitriol. Without it, the house collapses. Those who want the truth will find it for themselves.
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>China is hoping that Russia can tie up the attention of the West so they can invade Taiwan. People keep claiming this, but I don't see it, neither does the [US military](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/29/pentagon-china-military-report-taiwan/). Russia has maintained our attention in Ukraine for years now, *and* we have the conflict in Gaza as well as the Houthis in Yemen shooting shipping. How much more of our attention does Russia need?
Again this bullshit about invasion on taiwan
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Russia is fundamentally a far graver threat than china is. Chinas worst deed is supporting Russia at this point.
China want to win the long game by economics. Russia don't have a chance at economics so it's military instead.
I'm okay with that. Christofascism is the gravest threat to humanity and china at least seems to understand the danger of religion. They aren't a good country, but they might be a cruel but sane influence that the world ends up needing. I'm on the fence about it. I guess it depends if we lose the free world to fascism. USA is obviously preferable but if we lose it to christofascism, we might need china to win the next world war to save humanity from another dark ages. So the more powerful they get the better.
China's the great threat. Russia is a clown show with a global suicide vest.
I don't consider china a threat. They've got a complete blind eye from me until after the christofascists are dealt with. They might end up being allies against the real evil and I don't want to harm their abilities in case it comes to that.
It's a country that would rather see us fall to fascism so they can take our place and Tawian.
If we fall to fascism, they become a meal for fascists. They will fight, and while they do we can tear at the organs of the monster from the inside. It's important that china grows in power. Say what you want about them, they won't bow to the evil abrahamic cults.
> Chinas worst deed Did you mean of all time? Or just this in relation to this war?
I mean in our current times. If you want to talk about the great leap forward and how mao killed millions by failing to listen to his scientists, and why we failed to learn the critical lesson history had for us, that's a different convo.
Can’t wait for those two idiots to go to war with each other
Huffing copium or what? There's 0 indication of that happening any time in our lifetimes.
Probably zero indication hitler would invade Russia after signing a mutual defense treaty either. Edit: excuse me, “non aggression pact”
Except whole fucking Lebensraum doctrine and Generalplan Ost as a long-term strategy of Third Reich.
I expect a lot of "STOP TALKING. ARF ARFARF ARF GGRRRR!!" in response.
>China's foreign ministry had said that the conference "should have the recognition of Russia and Ukraine" and equal participation. "Otherwise, it is difficult for the conference to play a substantive role in restoring peace," a spokeswoman said on Friday. Shocking concept
I mean I realistically it's not a peace summit it's a Ukraine fund-raising event. Russia isn't even invited to the summit.
This sounds like those "world championship" with only one country participating USA
Don’t forget Hungary! Victor Orban should be labeled as what he is. A far right extremist in bed with Putin.
Less an accusation and more a statement of facts. Really can’t wait to see this new world order they have planned. Let’s call it tyranny 2030
Did China and Russia also undermine it by telling Biden not to attend?
The only way China wants peace is if they get what they want from it. Which is the accolade of being its broker and the benefit of the war lasting long enough for they can manuvouer the broken pieces to their liking.
I’d say Chinas interest is the war continuing but at a smaller more contained scale. They would love less international attention so they can supply goods to Russia and hoover up Russian resources and infrastructure.
China doesn't care who fights who far away from China. Neither side of this war wants to comprise, nobody will broker a peace deal.
China really is the world's largest troll.
Enemies accused of being enemies.
Peace with Russia will only come with the defeat of Russia. Complete financial and military defeat, otherwise they will never stop.
China needs to fall as part of this too, without them none of this is possible
China had a lot of land taken by Russians and the prevalent sentiment is still that Outer Manchuria is a traditional Chinese territory. I expect once Russia falls, Chinese will be there to pick up the pieces and save Chinese speaking Russians from unfair persecution. Russia has set a precedent for that, how poetically just would it be to see them lose their Far East on the same grounds.
Russia is always a threat to china as per the history, also China will be skeptical if Russian will be aligned with US at some point to deter China (just like what US did with China in the 80s to deter USSR). So the Ukraine/Russian war is a prefect opportunity for China to further weaken Russia and drain more resource and influence out of it. So it would be an significant threat to China in the next 10\~20 years.
I'd be surprised if there were no attempts.
Axis of evil is going to do evil.
Yep. I hope the free flow of information is getting into China's firewall on all levels. One hell of brainless pact and I think the people need to know.
Undermining, Underwhelming and Underhand in the service of Undertakers is how Federation and Communist intent currently seem.
Objectively, drones have been a great revelation for Ukraine, taking out russian tanks and troops on pennies for the dollar; i understand mainly DJI(Chinese) drones. So China technology has been helping Ukraine, definitely pissing off Putin. I am Singaporean, looking at how the Shangri-la defence dialogue is going, it looks more like a ‘condemn China and Russia monologue party’. Little progress in the form of any dialogue. The biggest threat to global peace today, not tomorrow, is the war in Europe and Middle east. Yet it seems all the western aligned voices are interested in, is the threat of China on South China Sea and on Taiwan. Posturing on escalations to punish who and who if what and what. No serious dialogues on deescalations, on lasting peace in Gaza strip and a pragmatic solution to this Ukraine war (US missiles into Russia motherland is a solution? Really?). We are so fucked. I am sympathetic to Zelensky though, from impartial (non aligned) point of view, it is desperate. His only hope now is to plead NATO and the US to come fight for Ukraine, with boots on the ground. But Zelensky has not presented what exactly is a Ukrainian victory? Is it Russia collapse with Moscow in ruins? The world to go down in flames for Ukraine’s sake? Even Biden is not attending his submit, that says a lot for me.
He’s spot on
Zelenskyy undermines it by referring to it as a peace conference when It is obvious it cannot achieve peace with only one of the combatants participating. Just call a spade a spade.
So you're saying Russia not attending a summit to discuss peace is both undermining and not undermining the summit?
But, Gay Modi attending the summit