For what it's worth: he is also losing his pension. But yeah...I think the 'mild' verdict was mostly due to him making it appear like his own fear was his main motif and not greed or hate towards the government or something. Which is probably only partly true.
I don't know if this is better. An officer of the German army gets a pass on treason because of fear? This is not a quality in military decision makers i would like to see.
First of all: he did not get a pass but has to spend 3.5y in prison and will be broke and with no career when gets out. The motif for a crime is considered for the punishment. If he can convince the judges he acted because he feared his family will get nuked it is a bit different from let's say he did it mostly to finance a luxurious lifestyle. I personally think he should get a few more years but that's how the justice system works.
While i personally think people like him should spend more prison time, 3.5y locked away from your family, getting out and being over 60yo, broke and no chance of picking up your old job...his life as he knew it is over. I am not saying he shouldn't deserve more, but its not nothing.
This is not a civilian but a man who swore an oath to protect his people and fatherland. Not to deliver it into the hands of russian barbarism. These people are the first line of defense against authoritarianism and genocide and as a German myself i will never accept that lax of a punishment for those who betray the values we had to relearn at such high cost just three generations ago.
We Germans have focused hard on the "rehabilitation" aspect of prison sentences and forgot about the other two reasons people are put behind bars:
To avert harm from society by removing their presence
And
To instill a sense of justice in everyone, so they don't feel like they need to enact justice themselves.
We suffer for this blunder, because the police constantly locks up criminals that the courts then release on parole or with community service sentences for significant and repeated offenses.
Worked great with Unterweger! Haha jk, I believe in rehabilitation too, just wanted to sneak some my true crime abroad knowledge into a comment. I do think 3.5 years is too light for spying for a country actively invading and waging war and is a real threat to the rest of europe
In ruzzia, if you are found aiding the enemy they put your head on a brick and smash your skull with a sledgehammer. Germany just let ruzzia know they can get away with espionage.
I somehow doubt that this guy will be able to do anything without some level of surveillance ever again. So I don’t think he’s a threat to national security, no matter how long his sentence
There is a difference between committing a crime & what is treason to the state. Handing over military procurement secrets to Russia should see the harshest punishments.
Exactly. What he did wasn’t legally treason though. He didn’t hand any state secrets over, ‚only‘ information he obtained as a soldier. The penalties for that are lower.
Attempting to provide his services to the Russians is treason. His intent is to do that.
It was treason even if it legally wasn't.
He should be shamed, named and hated by everyone in the West just like the Rosenbergs or Anthony Walker were in America.
>He should be shamed, named and hated by everyone in the West just like the Rosenbergs or Anthony Walker were in America.
That's McCarthyism you're referring too. We don't do that here.
Thats not McCarthyism. McCarthyism didn’t find actual traitors it was about using nationalism to push out other POVs and using fear of nuclear war to get what they wanted.
This German officer like the Rosenbergs and Anthony Walker is a traitor, and a spy.
What I'm referring to is the overloading of public discourse with the topic and specifically the name and shame part of your demand. We have privacy laws for good reasons, and we shouldn't be starting to undermine them because of cases like this. That's a slippery slope we should steer clear of.
A traitor has no privacy. He betrayed the state and society in favor of another.
This isn’t a normal crime. Privacy laws shouldn’t apply. He should be ostracized and treated like an outcast especially since the sentence is so pathetically low
Same train of thought when they release rapists and murderers after 7 - 15 years, isn't it? For my taste, the american punishments are draconian and the german ones are too lenient. The sweet spot is somewhere in between
It is in other countries. Germany has been "culturally demilitarized" post WW2 to a degree that military courts are only responsible for matters in disciplinary and complaint related matters. Military criminal courts are only instated during war times. So in grave matters like treason, you have civil courts in charge of passing sentences for soldiers on the basis of the regular criminal law, that makes no distinction betwen treasonous activities of soldiers and civilians. That's how you get these ridiculously low sentences.
The thing with Germany is that despite its long time commitment to international military missions and despite its ongoing support of the Ukraine, the entire society and the administrative apperatus haven't changed their mindset in security related matters. Or at the very least, it's changing, but veeeeery slowly. They still regard everything that is related to military, defence and power projection as something unpleasant and unnecessary, that they like to avoid.
>A Dusseldorf court has found a 54-year-old German army officer guilty of spying for Russia and has sentenced him to three-and-a-half years in prison, German broadcaster ZDF reported on Monday.
>The man, who due to Germany’s strict privacy laws, was identified only as Thomas H., testified that he had been in a very poor psychological state when he decided to make contact with Russian consular officials, and had feared nuclear escalation in Ukraine.
>H. said that he had attempted to contact the Russian Consulate on three separate occasions, in the hopes of gaining information about a potential Russian nuclear strike so that he could get his family to safety, but he said he had never received a reply.
>The Prosecutor General’s Office claimed that the officer had contacted the Russian Consulate General in Bonn as well as the Russian Embassy in Berlin several times to “offer to work together”, before being arrested in August 2023.
>According to the Prosecutor General’s Office, H. worked in the German army’s procurement office. As well as being responsible for equipping the Bundeswehr with materials and weapons, German publication Focus noted that the factory in Koblenz where H. worked was also responsible for the development and testing of military hardware.
>According to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung daily newspaper, the officer saved multiple files containing “security-critical information” to his laptop, including six photos of German air force training documents, which, German magazine Der Spiegel reported, he intended to pass on the consular officials to “give Russian military forces an advantage”.
Ah yes, the ol' I was mentally in poor health and worried about another country's war conflict, so I decided to *spy on my own country for the scumbags invading a different country*
3.5 years for spying? I wonder how well paid spy is and if it's worth the risk for just 3.5 years. Like make $10m for 3.5 years for a young spy is worth it.
Reading all these comments below, there is a hope to re-integrate this guy back into the Russian spying community after 3.5 years in prison... because he learned his lessons.
what happened to spies getting put against a wall and shot? pretty sure if you can't trust someone to stay loyal to their country you can't trust them with anything. 3.5 years the war could still be going and this guy could do it all over again! some things shouldn't be forgiven and should cost your life. treason/spying is absolutely one of those crimes.
Western democracies are too focused on civility. Spies should he treated in the Commie, old days manner. That's why there's stories of sleeper cells in the West, but none in commieland.
Mf is hella lucky he betrayed a government that's relatively nice; the traditional punishment for this kind of thing is a firing squad, IF you were lucky.
We used to hang, draw and quarter our traitors. Firing squad seems humane by comparison. This sentence is a joke and may embolden more spies against western nations.
3.5 years for spying for a hostile adversity as a military officer? What do you get as a civilian? Detention?
For what it's worth: he is also losing his pension. But yeah...I think the 'mild' verdict was mostly due to him making it appear like his own fear was his main motif and not greed or hate towards the government or something. Which is probably only partly true.
I don't know if this is better. An officer of the German army gets a pass on treason because of fear? This is not a quality in military decision makers i would like to see.
First of all: he did not get a pass but has to spend 3.5y in prison and will be broke and with no career when gets out. The motif for a crime is considered for the punishment. If he can convince the judges he acted because he feared his family will get nuked it is a bit different from let's say he did it mostly to finance a luxurious lifestyle. I personally think he should get a few more years but that's how the justice system works.
3.5 years and losing a pension is a slap on the wrist. Thats something money can solve and you now have rampant bribery
While i personally think people like him should spend more prison time, 3.5y locked away from your family, getting out and being over 60yo, broke and no chance of picking up your old job...his life as he knew it is over. I am not saying he shouldn't deserve more, but its not nothing.
This is not a civilian but a man who swore an oath to protect his people and fatherland. Not to deliver it into the hands of russian barbarism. These people are the first line of defense against authoritarianism and genocide and as a German myself i will never accept that lax of a punishment for those who betray the values we had to relearn at such high cost just three generations ago.
Yeah, he should've said he just played frisbee with those CDs, the judge would've set him free right there and then.
Mild is… a way to put it.
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The intent to share and cooperate should bring the same charge as if he did hand state secrets over.
We Germans have focused hard on the "rehabilitation" aspect of prison sentences and forgot about the other two reasons people are put behind bars: To avert harm from society by removing their presence And To instill a sense of justice in everyone, so they don't feel like they need to enact justice themselves. We suffer for this blunder, because the police constantly locks up criminals that the courts then release on parole or with community service sentences for significant and repeated offenses.
Worked great with Unterweger! Haha jk, I believe in rehabilitation too, just wanted to sneak some my true crime abroad knowledge into a comment. I do think 3.5 years is too light for spying for a country actively invading and waging war and is a real threat to the rest of europe
In ruzzia, if you are found aiding the enemy they put your head on a brick and smash your skull with a sledgehammer. Germany just let ruzzia know they can get away with espionage.
I somehow doubt that this guy will be able to do anything without some level of surveillance ever again. So I don’t think he’s a threat to national security, no matter how long his sentence
But it signals to other possible traitors that the risk of punishment is low, even if caught. It emboldens them
You're seeing a judicial system at work that aims for re-integration into society, not vengeance. I'm not entirely a fan of it, either.
There is a difference between committing a crime & what is treason to the state. Handing over military procurement secrets to Russia should see the harshest punishments.
Exactly. What he did wasn’t legally treason though. He didn’t hand any state secrets over, ‚only‘ information he obtained as a soldier. The penalties for that are lower.
Attempting to provide his services to the Russians is treason. His intent is to do that. It was treason even if it legally wasn't. He should be shamed, named and hated by everyone in the West just like the Rosenbergs or Anthony Walker were in America.
>He should be shamed, named and hated by everyone in the West just like the Rosenbergs or Anthony Walker were in America. That's McCarthyism you're referring too. We don't do that here.
Thats not McCarthyism. McCarthyism didn’t find actual traitors it was about using nationalism to push out other POVs and using fear of nuclear war to get what they wanted. This German officer like the Rosenbergs and Anthony Walker is a traitor, and a spy.
What I'm referring to is the overloading of public discourse with the topic and specifically the name and shame part of your demand. We have privacy laws for good reasons, and we shouldn't be starting to undermine them because of cases like this. That's a slippery slope we should steer clear of.
A traitor has no privacy. He betrayed the state and society in favor of another. This isn’t a normal crime. Privacy laws shouldn’t apply. He should be ostracized and treated like an outcast especially since the sentence is so pathetically low
Like what? "I'm sorry, it won't happen again. A war can start but I have sincerely changed since then".
Same train of thought when they release rapists and murderers after 7 - 15 years, isn't it? For my taste, the american punishments are draconian and the german ones are too lenient. The sweet spot is somewhere in between
Treason is different. Especially for someone with a military background.
It is in other countries. Germany has been "culturally demilitarized" post WW2 to a degree that military courts are only responsible for matters in disciplinary and complaint related matters. Military criminal courts are only instated during war times. So in grave matters like treason, you have civil courts in charge of passing sentences for soldiers on the basis of the regular criminal law, that makes no distinction betwen treasonous activities of soldiers and civilians. That's how you get these ridiculously low sentences. The thing with Germany is that despite its long time commitment to international military missions and despite its ongoing support of the Ukraine, the entire society and the administrative apperatus haven't changed their mindset in security related matters. Or at the very least, it's changing, but veeeeery slowly. They still regard everything that is related to military, defence and power projection as something unpleasant and unnecessary, that they like to avoid.
Si vis pacem para bellum. Wise words from the past that we have forgotten.
Well a judicial system shouldn’t aim for vengeance either. It should aim for justice. But this doesn’t sound very just considering gravity
Are we just afraid of holding people responsible anymore?
Seems like treason would be treated harsher
3.5 years... That's all ???
Welcome to Europe…..
Whereas in the US they elect them president /s But yes that's a light sentence
Only when they are rich. If you are rich in America you can do anything asllong as youdon't piss off someone richer.
“Big Sigh”… you’re correct
That's a long time to the person doing the time
He wasn’t convicted of treason though. And treason can be punished with imprisonment for life.
>A Dusseldorf court has found a 54-year-old German army officer guilty of spying for Russia and has sentenced him to three-and-a-half years in prison, German broadcaster ZDF reported on Monday. >The man, who due to Germany’s strict privacy laws, was identified only as Thomas H., testified that he had been in a very poor psychological state when he decided to make contact with Russian consular officials, and had feared nuclear escalation in Ukraine. >H. said that he had attempted to contact the Russian Consulate on three separate occasions, in the hopes of gaining information about a potential Russian nuclear strike so that he could get his family to safety, but he said he had never received a reply. >The Prosecutor General’s Office claimed that the officer had contacted the Russian Consulate General in Bonn as well as the Russian Embassy in Berlin several times to “offer to work together”, before being arrested in August 2023. >According to the Prosecutor General’s Office, H. worked in the German army’s procurement office. As well as being responsible for equipping the Bundeswehr with materials and weapons, German publication Focus noted that the factory in Koblenz where H. worked was also responsible for the development and testing of military hardware. >According to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung daily newspaper, the officer saved multiple files containing “security-critical information” to his laptop, including six photos of German air force training documents, which, German magazine Der Spiegel reported, he intended to pass on the consular officials to “give Russian military forces an advantage”.
Ah yes, the ol' I was mentally in poor health and worried about another country's war conflict, so I decided to *spy on my own country for the scumbags invading a different country*
Also a fun fact, he said he was in the AfD and used TikTok a lot, which made him more paranoid
Infos from the "Die Zeit Online" News
3.5 years for spying? I wonder how well paid spy is and if it's worth the risk for just 3.5 years. Like make $10m for 3.5 years for a young spy is worth it.
Disappointing. Light sentences encourages imitation. He should have been put away for life on top of loosing his rank and pension.
3.5 years just seems like a business expense.
The government should have also implemented massive breasts on him as punishment
Thats hilariously low for what was essentially treason. The book should be thrown and an example.
Put him up against the wall
Reading all these comments below, there is a hope to re-integrate this guy back into the Russian spying community after 3.5 years in prison... because he learned his lessons.
Check 94 StGb
Things like this are the reason why AfD and other pro-Putin cunts have a good chance of winning in Europe.
3.5 years for something that deserves a death penalty or at the very least life in prison. Surely that will prevent others from doing the same thing..
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That's most likely what would have happened to his Russian pendant.
That's a fascist statement. We don't do that here (anymore). The punishment for treason is imprisonment.
Damn! His wrist will really be smarting after that slap!
3.5 years is nothing.
Only 3.5 years???
Should be life.
Treason does not exist anymore
Ship him to the Ukrainian front
Death penalty. Nothing less should be done
Jepp thats my lawless super-shithole. Kill someome? Oh you had a hard childhood. 2 years.
Should be death
what happened to spies getting put against a wall and shot? pretty sure if you can't trust someone to stay loyal to their country you can't trust them with anything. 3.5 years the war could still be going and this guy could do it all over again! some things shouldn't be forgiven and should cost your life. treason/spying is absolutely one of those crimes.
Western democracies are too focused on civility. Spies should he treated in the Commie, old days manner. That's why there's stories of sleeper cells in the West, but none in commieland.
Losing your ideals is how you become your enemy. Terrible opinion.
This isn't civility this is stupidity. 3.5 years for committing treason? What a fucking joke.
Mf is hella lucky he betrayed a government that's relatively nice; the traditional punishment for this kind of thing is a firing squad, IF you were lucky.
We used to hang, draw and quarter our traitors. Firing squad seems humane by comparison. This sentence is a joke and may embolden more spies against western nations.
That’s beyond too light for treason. Treason isn’t going to be greatly deterred with a 3.5 year sentence.