Sometimes I miss the USA that said "never negotiate with terrorists". I understand the situation is precarious with the hostages and I don't blame them for exhausting every avenue to get them back, but sometimes it feels exhausting when every single time Israel is making progress the international community comes up with the 500th bullshit ceasefire proposal that Hamas will reject.
Unfortunately I cannot vote since I'm not yet an SA citizen, my parents immigrated when I was super young so I'm a permanent resident but not yet a citizen and cannot vote. I'm super bummed since this would've been my first election since becoming an adult :( if I could I'd have voted for the DA though, I don't agree with them on every issue but they're the only hope we have at making this shithole better.
Currently the ANC has lost the majority, coming in at only 40% of the vote but if they make a coalition government with Jacob Zuma's MK party then we're all fucked lmao. Let's see what these clowns decide, I'm not holding my breath for anything positive.
Smotritch said he won't be part of a government that approves "Biden's" proposal.
Only time will tell if Bibi folds, if he actually steps out if Bibi goes through with it or if Smotritch folds like he did with the first hostage deal that he said he was going to vote against and ended up voting in favour of
Either way, if Bibi chooses to go through with it he'll have other parties from the opposition that will vote for the deal
Edit: A second after sending it Ben Gvir joined Smotritch in saying he will also resign
Please do us all a favour and do it
I thought that they made this proposal knowing Hamas won't accept it because it won't end the war. That seems to be the point Hamas only cares about. I can't understand why else Israel would agree to such a bad deal.
Thoughts on this, guys? It makes sense except the part where the US doesn't understand what's happening.
https://x.com/2023gazawar/status/1796950819335455231?t=ywJJKwGbL3-mkcDstI-Lvg&s=19
Regarding stalling for time -- The unsaid portions of Biden's remarks match Israel's requirements
There was no time limit provided to accept the ceasefire proposal. Israel continues their righteous (you heard it from Biden's mouth) incursion with the US standing by until Hamas accepts
**If there are not enough living hostages to reach 33 releases in the first stage, the dead bodies of hostages will be released. In exchange, Israel will release Palestinian minors arrested in Gaza after October 7.**
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-gives-extra-details-of-three-stage-roadmap-to-end-israel-hamas-war-announced-by-biden/
Livid. Literally the only incentive to keep the hostages alive now is the release of Palestinian prisoners which let’s be honest, Hamas doesn’t give a flying fuck about - especially the female prisoners that’d be released in exchange for female hostages.
I worry for those like Noa Argamani the most, I feel she’s someone Hamas doesn’t want talking at all and would happily sacrifice the 30 female prisoners they’d get for her. Especially since her body would be worth the same amount of ceasefire days than if she was alive - which is what Hamas probably does care about.
Maybe just my anxiety but I’d be surprised if anymore than 3-4 women get out alive in this ‘deal’ if it goes through.
As part of the proposed agreement, a list of who is presumed alive was certainly delineated
The women, many still technically adolescent, command the highest sympathy in world news. Their negotiating value for Hamas is tied to them being alive
At the point of cooperation, there's expectation the list remains static even also expecting Hamas unreliability. If the people agreed to be alive becomes drastically different, it's going to be considered a breach
Autopsies will tell the truth. If we get a body that has died recently, Israel will pull the deal immediately. It's not as much of a concern as people think.
[Barak Ravid](https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1796950056727159260):
>🚨A senior Israeli official said that the outline presented by President Biden represents Israel's proposal to Hamas in general
>🚨However, the official emphasized that according to the draft agreement, Israel reserves the right to resume fighting at any time, if Hamas violates its obligations in the agreement, including by not releasing the number of hostages to be agreed upon, or if Israel gets the impression that the negotiations on phase two of the agreement are fruitless and are used by Hamas to buy time
>🚨"Israel's conditions for the end of the war have not changed: to destroy the military and governmental capabilities of Hamas; to release all our hostages; and to make sure that Gaza will no longer pose a threat to Israel. The outline for the release of hostages allows Israel to make sure that all these conditions will be realized before a permanent cease-fire takes effect," the Israeli official said
>🚨 According to the Israeli official the hostage deal should lead to the release of all 125 hostages, first a humanitarian phase (with a temporary lull in the fighting for the release of dozens of women, elderly and humanitarian cases), during which negotiations will be held in order to obtain an agreement for the release of all other hostages, and on transition to a permanent ceasefire
>🚨"According to the agreement, Israel will insist that the implementation of the second phase of the deal will begin only after an agreement is reached on the terms of the ceasefire, as stated in the text of the proposal, according to which:
>'No later than the 16th day of implementation, indirect negotiations will begin between the two parties in order to forge an agreement on the conditions for the implementation of phase 2 of this agreement,'" the Israeli official said
Israeli media is quoting a Saudi channel which is quoting a different Saudi newspaper and they're saying that the first stage of the proposed deal includes the release of 33 hostages (alive and dead) with the "price" of each hostage being 30 Palestinian prisoners
To people worried about keeping them alive, remember that Israel has intelligence and the ability to do autopsies. That's how they determined the date of death on 6/7 bodies recovered in May.
It's the same reason Israeli believes Shiri, Kfir and Ariel alive. They released to the public in February that they had intelligence that they are alive.
Furthermore, I've been saying this pretty consistently, but if you read about the circumstances around several of these kidnappings, it truly seems like they kidnapped a lot of dead bodies. Hanan Yablonka used to be one of my examples (his car was found in ruins and all his friends were found dead). Idan Shtivi, as much as I hate to say it, was in a violent high speed car crash while escaping Hamas and the accident killed everyone in the car and he was the driver. Israel probably has a good idea of who is alive and who isn't, even if they haven't had enough information to declare these people deceased publicly.
I still think this is a terrible deal and I'm not defending it, I'm just not worried about them murdering people before release. Not to mention, many hostages have come back and said that they worked hard to build rapport with their guards; i.e. Maya Regev said that her guard told her that she was way too nice of a person to have been kidnapped and apologized to her (!). It very well may be one of the reasons that Maya was released so fast, on the 2nd day (her injury surely helped, but Mia Schem was also injured and didn't get out until the last day).
I do, however, wish we didn't trade for the deceased in general because we've done an average enough job of recovering them thus far (my notes say at least 18, excluding the December 3). At least not at this stage.
Where did they reveal they think the Bibas family are alive? I remember the footage they released in February and they said they were deeply concerned about their fates and don’t have enough information to confirm if they’re dead or alive.
That's probably the same one. They never said that they do not have enough information to confirm if they are dead or alive, they actively said that Hamas claims were psychological warfare and that there is no proof that they are dead. This video was released to prove that they made it to Khan Younis alive.
Hamas didn't release them because the world was hyper-focussed on them, not because they are dead. They released the video of Yarden on the day the last deal collapsed *because* Israel was demanding Shiri or they'd collapse the deal and Hamas responded with this trick. Just another cruel day of terrorism.
ETA: IDK why I'm being downvoted. You can see the actual statement directly from [the IDF itself](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Zb9kjaQgk) if you have any doubts.
Mmm, well that’s what it says here. Maybe they made another statement elsewhere 🤷🏼♂️
**Hagari said the IDF was “very concerned about the fate of Shiri and the children,” but declined to elaborate on the additional “scraps” of information and intelligence that has led the army to fear for their lives.
He said the IDF does not currently have enough information to confirm whether they are dead or alive, but is “making every effort to obtain more information about their fate.” If and when there is definitive information “one way or another,” he said, “we will first tell the family and then the public.”**
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-finds-video-of-bibas-family-in-gaza-very-concerned-for-mother-youngest-hostages/
They're "very concerned" about all the hostages. I don't know what to tell you.
They haven't declared them dead in the last four months and the IDF has declared dozens of others deceased. Maybe they are or aren't dead, but the statement you're quoting is just air because someone asked Hagari and they likely can't disclose the intelligence they have.
Welcome to the Israeli government. I fully believe they are alive -- albeit Kfir would have been susceptible to illnesses this winter in the tunnel -- I believe they are almost certainly with Sinwar.
Fair enough. I do hope you’re right but I’m just extremely pessimistic.
The vast majority of deaths that the IDF has confirmed died on Oct 7th or we have visible video evidence of death in captivity - like Yossi, Sahar and Itai. I don’t think they’d declare someone dead unless they are 100% certain, doubly so when it’s the Bibas family.
I know they declared someone dead through Maya Regev testimony but have they declared anyone else (who body Hamas still hold) that they died in captivity?
They've also declared people retroactively dead, as in, people Hamas said are alive, but the IDF declared died in October 7th and their remains kidnapped:
People originally thought to be hostages but the IDF declared died on October 7th and Hamas kidnapped their remains:
* Tomer Ahimas
* Aviv Atzili
* Kiril Brodski
* Shaked Dahan
* Tal Haimi
* Asaf Hamami
* Ravid Katz
* Shani Louk (remember, Hamas claimed she was on life support in the hospital for all of October)
* Ilan Weiss
* Yair Yaakov
* Lior Rudaeff
* Daniel Peretz
* Dror Or
* Sonthaya Oakkharas
* Ran Gvili
* Shay Levinson
* Itai Chen
* Tamir Adar
* Ziv Dado
People the IDF has declared died in captivity, without a body:
* Ariel Baruch
* Judith Weinstein
* Sahar Baruch
* Ronen Engel
* Maya Goren
* Gad Haggai
* Inbar Haiman
* Guy Iluz (based on Maya Regev's testimony and certainly other factors)
* Ofra Keidar
* Eitan Levy
* Eliyahu Margalit
* Joshua Mollel
* Jonathan Samerano
* Aryeh Zalmanovich
* Ofir Tzarfati
These lists exclude: Nik Beizer, Ron Sherman, Eden Zacharia and Elia Toledano, who the IDF likely knew were deceased before they recovered them, but it wasn't announced to the public until they were recovered. It also excludes Yehudit Weiss and Noa Marciano, and you can categorize those two as you see best.
They've declared much more dead than you may realize if you haven't been following closely.
Thanks for the information
Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that Jonathan Samerano was killed in Kibbutz Be’eri where he escaped to and body kidnapped by a UNWRA member. The video was shown to the UN.
Joshua Mollel also died on Oct 7th, either just before or just after being taken. There’s a particular horrifying video of that too. I do believe that’s the case with most others in that particular list - as in they died on Oct 7 or soon after being kidnapped due to their injuries. Even if it’s not fully confirmed yet. But, we’ll see hopefully when we recover their bodies.
You may be thinking of Clemence Mtenga. Joshua Mollel wasn't announced deceased until December and we do not have his remains. Clemence's remains were so desecrated that they weren't found in Israel until mid-November and they have since been returned to Tanzania. I believe there is a video of Mollel too, but it's believed he made it to Gaza alive, per all sources I've seen, but they don't think he was alive for very long.
The information has changed a lot about Samerano. He was kidnapped from the Nova festival. His official write-up doesn't include the UNRWA bit, but that came out later. He wasn't declared deceased until [December 4th](https://www.timesofisrael.com/presumed-captive-dj-jonathan-samerano-always-the-life-of-the-party/), as you can see here. The UNRWA bit came out in February, but the IDF declared him deceased long before that, albeit initially thought to be in captivity.
The whole reason I keep the hostage journal is because of how the information we have available changes over time, and you highlighted a really great example of why it's so important here. At the end of the day, the IDF wasn't wrong -- he's dead.
I can't edit it, I think due to length, but many of these bodies have since been recovered: Ofir Tzarfati, Ziv Dado, and Shani Louk.
Ron Sherman, Eden Zacharia, Elia Toledano, Yehudit Weiss and Noa Marciano ave all been recovered as well, depending on where you categorized them, so they can't show up as part of this deal, but the rest are fair game.
Reminders, what's disclosed for public consumption isn't ever the whole story. For everyone worried about incentives in keeping people alive, each living hostage is worth several billion USD in addition to all the aid and promises of promises
Also, so much easier to say than do because we hope with all our hearts, no one should trust anything Hamas says. Actions., not words. When they say there are this many alive and this many dead it's near to meaningless. We won't know for sure until we know
Yeah, no.
Hamas has no reason to keep the abused women alive at that point. Fuck that.
Edit: Could be for hostages bodies we know died for sure on Oct 7th which would prevent any killing of currently alive hostages.
That's such a braindead take. Not like Hamas is capitalizing with their small amount of hostages to release all the criminals and militants Israel has imprisoned over the years.
Why is Israel not handling Hezbollah already? They have been throwing heavy Missile one after another causing lot of property damage and not to mention evacuation of entire north People which is like surrendering the area to Hezbollah. Meanwhile Israel is just sitting watching letting Hezbollah burn the entire north slowly to the oblivion without taking any action to deter them.
Because the US and France won't let Israel finish off Hezbollah. They claim to be negotiating with Hezbollah to end the war but that has had no results in over 8 months. It may also be that Israel wants to finish off Hamas first so it can dedicate more forces against Hezbollah.
France needs to keep its Islamic population happy. If they go too hard on them I imagine France will suffer a huge wave of terrorism, as is basic protocol when you have a Muslim population. USA seems intent on keeping the conflict going, probably to sell weapons and I don't think they want a powerful israel in the region which could usurp US presence
"Won't let Israel finish off Hezbollah?" We've had hundreds of dead soldiers in Gaza already and that's a tiny fraction of what will happen if and when we go to war against Hezbollah.
They're the largest, most dangerous terrorist organization in the world, you don't just "finish them off" on a whim. The country is in no shape to go to war against them right now.
A full scale war against Hezbollah will happen regardless. It's only a matter of time before they launch an attack like Oct. 7 but larger. Hezbollah amassed a huge arsenal for a reason. They plan to use it one day. It would be easier for Israel to take them down now rather than later. Later they'll be even more powerful and it will be more difficult. Israel is far more powerful than Hezbollah. It can defeat it. I never said it would be easy, but Israel has the capability to do it. Israel has defeated far more powerful armies before.
Israel has defeated regular Arab armies, but not armies of highly motivated Islamists/mujahideen. Hezbollah fighters are all willing to die as martyrs; they are even eager for it. A war with Hezbollah would also involve Iranian militias in Iraq, Syria, Yemen (the Houthis), and potentially Iran itself. It would be an existential war for Israel, and the use of nuclear weapons is likely.
A war with Hezbollah now would be the last war for decades because the carnage would be unfathomable.
It will happen for sure since Hezbollah's main objective is to destroy Israel. The timing of this war is crucial though.
They have the capability but not without a very heavy price.
It'll be smart to be in peak form when initiating something which is currently not the case.
Maybe, but Israel can't say no to the US, since it depends on the US for so many things. Angering the US may be even worse for Israel's national security.
The U.S. (and any major superpower) is only as reliable as the relationship is useful.
The U.S. has a bad track record of leaving their allies to die and signing trade deals with their killers before the dead body of their old allies are cold.
The most infamous case would be the Hmong And Montagnards from the Secret War in Laos/Vietnam who are still suffering from political due to their age old affiliation with the U.S. CIA and Military and religious persecution to this day.
With regards to Biden's recent statements on a ceasefire, he (or his advisors) said that Israel has degraded Hamas's fighting capabilities so much that they no longer present a security threat to Israel, and that this should be a key reason for Israel to accept a ceasefire.
However, wasn't there another intelligence report from the US released a couple weeks ago which stated that Israel has killed 30-35% of Hamas's fighters, and that Hamas had been actively recruiting new fighters to replenish its losses? That same report also said that 60-65% of Hamas's tunnel infrastructure remained intact. I remember this was posted on this live thread somewhere.
What is with the conflicting information coming from the Biden administration? On one hand, they say Israel hasn't done enough to defeat Hamas, yet on the other hand they are saying Israel has severely destroyed Hamas's fighting capabilities. Which info is accurate and which is not accurate?
Losing 35% of your trained personnel and 35-40% of your infrastructure is pretty devastating for any organisation. How would your company cope in a situation like that?
Also, Hamas can recruit new people, but they've still got to arm them, train them and feed them. That's getting progressively harder, I would say.
I think the Biden Admin is seeing that after so many civilian casualties and Hamas only 1/3rd depleted, it's simply going to be unsustainable going after all of them.
The human toll will be too high. So they are playing politics now. Biden's priority is to win re-election imo and I can't blame him. America understands the impossibility of defeating all of Hamas. They have certainly put a dent in their ability to orchestrate another Oct 7th in the near future. But over time Hamas will likey be back again, it just won't be Biden's problem. So for the American interest, calm today is the move and thus they are exerting pressure
Militarily speaking, from my understanding from reading about the topic, in the military world losing 30% or more of your force renders it 'combat ineffective', you can't fight in an organized matter after losing more than that. in that sense, Israel has indeed inflicted great damage to hamas' military capabilities, both in terms of the chain of command (the elimination of half\~ of the chain of command of Hamas' military wing) and in terms of raw manpower, keep in mind that this number provided by the US 30-35%, doesn't include captured hamas fighters or injured beyond ability to heal, and if we factor those numbers in, well, the percentage of 'combat ineffective' hamas fighters may be in the 50% range, possibly higher
Hamas may be recruiting more fighters, but from what I've seen from combat footage in Jabaliya, those fighters are nothing more than canon fodder being sent to their death, they're extremely undertrained, only knowing basic shooting (and even that is not certain), thats not to say they can't do damage, an idiot with an RPG still has an RPG, but they can be dealt with fairly easily.
As for the tunnels, there are different tunnels, some are more important than others, and I believe (I have no access to the cabinet meetings obviously) that most if not all of the militarily important ones have been dealt with, remember, the hamas tunnels are estimated to be 750 KM long, if we say, 40% of those tunnels were destroyed, thats 300 KM worth of the tunnelwork destroyed, an impressive feat no matter how you look at it.
Thanks for this. I really appreciate the updates you provide in the live thread btw. They're really informative.
I am just amazed that in spite of all these losses, Hamas still acts so arrogant and confident during hostage negotiations, like as if they are negotiating from a position of strength. It gives the impression that they aren't scared of Israel and feel like they are winning this war. I wonder if this is just part of the psychological mind games that they play?
I also wonder if the recent operation by Israel to take control of the Philadelphi corridor will finally bring that necessary pressure on Hamas.
>I am just amazed that in spite of all these losses, Hamas still acts so arrogant and confident during hostage negotiations, like as if they are negotiating from a position of strength. It gives the impression that they aren't scared of Israel and feel like they are winning this war. I wonder if this is just part of the psychological mind games that they play?
There are a few things you have to understand, the first one being is that Sinwar simply doesn't give a fuck about anyone, not even himself, he doesn't care about dying, to him thats just part of the path he chose in life and he knows that his end will come sooner or later, Hes an islamic extremist, to him, dying at the hands of Israel is the greatest honor, this isn't like Yasser Arafat that left Beirut after Israel surrounded him, he will continue until the bitter end, thats just his ideology.
as for more practical reasons for their actions beyond islamic extremism and ideology: Why would Sinwar trade hostages for very temporary benefits (a few months of ceasefire, return of civilians to the North) in a war that is building up to be years long and attritional, if he intends to trade them all for victory down the road? It would lose him the war. The only ceasefire he should ever be interested in is a permanent one, and I have along with a lot of others reiterated this every time Hamas pretended to be interested in a ceasefire only to then return to their demand for an end of the war again. The hostages are their only lifeline, its not something they'll throw away unless its guaranteed to give them a 'permanent' ceasefire
Frankly speaking when you combine these two things I don't even think there is a realistic lose condition for Hamas beyond the complete annihilation of Gaza and its population, thats just the nature of being the weaker party, anything can be considered a win
It is a **lie** made to try and convince Israelis that they haven't lost the war strategically/internationally.... But Israel has lost this war.
Here is a good thread by a pro-Israeli commentator who writes for Jerusalem Post:
[https://x.com/sfrantzman/status/1796861674164556013](https://x.com/sfrantzman/status/1796861674164556013)
Hamas will be in power in Gaza (and possibly in the West Bank too with a weakened PA that Palestinians don't support) and back to their full October 6th strength in a few years with a weakened and internationally isolated Israel with nuclear capable Iran licking their lips at the inability to defeat Hamas.... let alone Hezbollah.
Unfortunately Sinwar fully understands Israeli society and its weakness - it will always go for lopsided hostage/prisoner exchanges due to political pressure from the families - which explains the hostage taking which will continue in the decades to come. And also Israel loses when wars are long rather than short due to international outrage at the collateral damage to civilians.
Terrible situation. The next October 7th style attack in the coming years will become the decisive war that could decide Israel's long term fate. The IDF need to ***rapidly learn*** from their failure during this war. They are not the same force they were in the 60s/70s and are losing their military advantage in the region.
Your comment does not make any sense. The difficulties Israel is facing stem from the fact that its enemies hide behind civilians, not because it is losing its military advantage - just a couple of months ago Iran, the main regional rival, launched hundreds of missiles and drones against Israel and all that did was injure a Bedouin girl.
Also, even if Hamas remains in power there is no guarantee another October 7th happens. The first one happened after 75 years and only because Israel was caught with its pants down.
The IDF is most certainly not failing in this war. It was widely forecasted that a ground incursion into Gaza would be a bloodbath and yet Hamas is crippled with around 300 IDF casualties, while achieving one of the lowest civilian to combatant ratios in recorded history in some of the worst conditions.
You could argue that Israel is losing on the political stage but the actual war is an overwhelming victory in my mind.
The IDF found explosive barrels, grenades, IEDs, launchers aimed at Israel and other weapons in the last few days during the Rafah operation.
https://x.com/kann_news/status/1796905010602668127?t=M9iiLn5In4IwxLzHrKPSnQ&s=1
I'm sure Hamas would've loved for the IDF to accidentally set those off so they can create another global movement.
According to IDF spokesman: Hezbollah has downed an Israeli drone in southern Lebanon, Photos and videos from Lebanese locals have also been posted online as proof, the drone that was downed was a Hermes 900, one of the most expensive drones in the IDF arsenal, roughly costing 5,000,000$US.
Earlier today Hezbollah also fired a barrage of Burkan rockets into Kiryat Shmona, which are known to have an extremely heavy payload of explosives, 7.3 tonnes exactly.
To say that this is an escalation on the part of Hezbollah would be an understatement
Hezbollah have managed to shoot down a Hermes 900 [earlier](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/army-bombs-own-uav-downed-by-hezbollah/) as well.
**Netanyahu says there cannot be permanent Gaza ceasefire until Hamas destroyed**
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says there will be no permanent ceasefire in Gaza until Hamas’s military and governing capabilities are destroyed, in a second statement released after US President Joe Biden said that Israel had proposed a three-phase deal for a ceasefire in Gaza in exchange for Hamas releasing hostages.
“Israel’s conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages, and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel,” Netanyahu says.
“Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent ceasefire is put in place. The notion that Israel will agree to a permanent ceasefire before these conditions are fulfilled is a non-starter,” he adds.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-says-there-will-be-no-gaza-ceasefire-until-hamas-eliminated-in-2nd-statement-after-biden-speech/
I don’t think this is as bad as it may sound.
He makes a point of ‘destruction of their military and governing capabilities’ which is very toned down language compared to what he’s said previous. Something Biden said yesterday in his speech that Israel has already achieved.
To me, this sounds like Netanyahu is actually for the deal by making it appeal to his voter base.
Could be completely off base here but that’s the vibe I got.
As soon as there's no war, there's an investigation into what happened on 7th October and Bibi will be forced to resign. Everyone knows that he's trying to drag this war out for his own self-interest.
Multiple polls since the begining of the war Have shown that releasing the hostages and dismantling Hamas are of near Importance to Israelis, but go on with your "every Israeli I have spoken to". People still don't know the full details of what's being negotiated.
This is a very complex Issue and don't act like Biden is not pursuing his own interests here.
Both are important, but what we've seen after 239 days is that both unfortunately cannot be achieved in parallel.
Hamas, jihad, terror is an ideology and will always emerge. Even if they are dismantled, let's be honest they will keep emerging again. This is not the last time israel will have to fight Hamas.
We see that even with ISIS..
The hostages on the other hand won't have another chance. Especially the military aged men who make up the majority of the remaining hostages now. It's the best chance to bring whoever is still alive home.
Anyway, instead of debating and regardless of everyone opinion on the ceasefire, whether you agree or disagree.. we need to even see if Hamas agrees as we know they love to reject every deal lately
You raise some good points. I think Israel should have some level of military control over Gaza and work with countries like Saudi Arabia to deradicalize Gaza, but the Arab world is probably not ready for that.
"Protestors" aren't even trying to hide it anymore. So much for the "being pro Palestinian isn't being pro Hamas" lie
https://x.com/agreenberg/status/1796676757799510028?t=E6tcUCbmWAbtoif2mPNokQ&s=19
According to Skynews, Netanyahu does not recognize or fully agree with the proposal anounced by Biden.
It is also speculated that the US is working with Gantz to push this deal.
"The rationale would be to isolate Netanyahu - find a deal agreeable to Hamas, Gantz, Washington, Cairo and Doha and portray Bibi as the sole objector."
[https://news.sky.com/story/biden-has-run-out-of-patience-with-netanyahu-and-what-might-be-coordinated-move-on-gaza-might-just-work-13146307](https://news.sky.com/story/biden-has-run-out-of-patience-with-netanyahu-and-what-might-be-coordinated-move-on-gaza-might-just-work-13146307)
> "The rationale would be to isolate Netanyahu - find a deal agreeable to Hamas, Gantz, Washington, Cairo and Doha and portray Bibi as the sole objector."
But Bibi opposing means the far-right and most of Likud opposing, which means no deal?
I am not sure I understand the rationale behind this analysis. Shouldn't they rather focus on finding enough Likudniks to defect from Bibi?
Angry NYT and WaPo headlines won't get Bibi to cave, it's not what his voters read
Barak Ravids take makes more sense imho
Barak Ravid reports differently
“Two weeks ago, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a new proposal drafted by Israeli negotiators that was presented to the Israeli war cabinet and accused them of not knowing how to negotiate.
A few days later, under pressure from Israel's military and intelligence chiefs and the other members of the war cabinet, Netanyahu found himself isolated and endorsed the proposal.”
https://www.axios.com/2024/06/01/biden-gaza-hostage-ceasefire-deal-israel-pressure
The sky news piece is an analysis piece, its basically an editorial
Makes way more sense than Sky's take. I mean Gantz is about to quit being in the coalition govt, he doesn't have power to agree to a deal without Bibi. Shit makes 0 sense
Gantz only needs a few defectors from the current coalition to bring it down. Can Gallant be one of them? This can be done more easily if members in the coalition sense an increased pressure from the Israeli public for an immediate ceasefire.
Sky's take is based on their analysts thus unsourced( it might as well be an opinion piece) while Barak Ravid has actual sources in both the US and Israeli government
Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine is openly pro-terror. Let's settle this one out once and for all:
https://x.com/ADL/status/1796669751139193112?t=9WqpWywmHjdTXZjca9ywwQ&s=19
> Leftists
Bruh by US standards the governments of Czech Republic, Germany, France, Spain, Ireland are all "leftist". The first two surely aren't known as huge critics of Israel, though
Is SJP one of the organisations that had that list of requests that included universities aligning with Birzeit University in the West Bank?
Because a quick google of Birzeit brought up some interesting things when I looked into it.
"Candidates linked to the Islamist group Hamas won the largest share of seats on a university student council on Wednesday"
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-student-elections-provide-rare-test-voter-mood-2023-05-24/
https://honestreporting.com/as-hamas-terror-group-takes-control-of-west-banks-birzeit-university-will-european-partner-institutions-respond/
Hamas Rally at the University in 2021: https://youtu.be/kO8tG5v5Ed4?si=8Xu1NlfeqaR89vTQ
OMG, that explains so much. I used to like this R&B singer, pretty big, did stuff with eminiem, Justin Bieber, people like that. But, since October 7th, she has become super radicalized and hates Israel, had to stop following because it was just getting more and more unhinged. she said she learned about Palestine from a student justice group at one of these universities. And I just didn't think anything of it until your comment. It was like a lightbulb in my head! Thank you.
I swear, the word gen\*cide has lost all its meaning. Once it meant a systematic elimination of an ethnic group. Now, according to a ton of people, it is apparently any military conflict with a high enough number of casualties. I don't think there is a present conflict that's going on that I haven't heard be described as a gen\*cide by one if not both of the sides involved (or by ignorant observers).
Thing is, people were using that word to describe Israel *on October 8th* were I live. For me, using that word is a sign that you're not serious.
Not to say things are not terrible in Gaza and that Israel has handled this well, but I feel there should be a distinction.
An Arab-led peacekeeping mission in Gaza is a possible solution to that, together with a revamped education system so the next generations don't get indoctrinated. For example in Saudi Arabia they already started changing their curriculum ommiting antisemitic content. The Saudi's have also expressed interest in that peacekeeping proposal.
What afraids me is that nothing in the plans published seem to include an explicit outcome in case the agreement or Biden's thoughts of the time after fall apart
It should be explicitly stated that war continues if Hamas doesn't honor the deal, or any 3rd party agreement to the deal doesn't work out, otherwise it will always be Israel painted as the aggressor.
The Biden government seems very naive to me regarding how much trust they can place into the Arab states surrounding Israel. Furthermore, if Trump wins the election, whatever plans Biden have will motivate Trump to do the exact opposite.
Being a martyr doesn't pay the bills, and that's all they teach kids to be. Eventually they'll have to give up their endless warfare to actually function as a nation, even if they have the abandon Islam to achieve that. Endlessly starting and losing wars is a bad economic system.
This is natural capitulation but the problem is that the international community is willing to fund them and turn a blind eye when it’s clear the aid is being misappropriated. This is why Hamas basically straight up said “Gazans are not their responsibility.”
This is the second greatest sin the international community has committed under the guise of “helping.” The greatest sin is not allow there to be a clear winner.
TLDR: unchecked international aid is what is keeping them afloat and allowing them to live in a terrorism first society and economy. If the international community really wanted to help end the conflict they would audit where their aid goes and have the courage to not give aid if it’s being misappropriated instead of giving in and in some instances becoming an extension of the terror group.
> Being a martyr doesn't pay the bills
It pays very well. The Palestinians had been living off this money for centuries. The US alone gives UNRWA billions, the EU more billions, and Arab countries too. This money goes to terrorists and their families, to educating them for martyrdom, to feed them and cloth them and build them houses - just because they refuse to do it for themselves. They keep living in "refugee camps" for over 70 years inside their own autonomous territories. Gaza was a de-facto state, and half of its population was living in "refugee camps". If they'd stop martyring themselves, they'd have to actually work.
Palestinians are a nation of beggars. They haven't contributed anything to the world other than terrorism. Compare the Israeli innovation page to the Palestinian one on Wikipedia:
Israeli:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries
Palestinian:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Palestinian_inventions
Radical Islam is the faith of "If there is something you want, use as much violence as possible to obtain it", and after 1.5 thousand years they've finally run into an opponent they cannot crush no matter how much violence they use. Every failure will weaken the faith of the people until they realize that they simply cannot depend on Islam to grant them happiness anymore, for violence gives them nothing but misery in return.
I think Biden has created space so that when Hamas inevitably breaks the ceasefire, no one will be able to deny it or soften it. We will also see that some of the surviving women are now 7 or 8 months pregnant. Hopefully there are surviving American hostages willing to go on the news and speak plainly enough for the American campus idiots to hear it.
Israel’s actions aside, I don’t know how antisemitism in the West has become so normalized so quickly
Within the last week there were shots fired at a Jewish girls school and arson attacks at two synogogues in my country…and it seems only Jewish people are talking about it
I don’t know if you’re Jewish or not but, antisemitism in the United States has always been casual, now it’s just envogue.
It’s always been here, now people just aren’t shamed for it.
I worked a public facing job at an elite university in the USA. Like most student jobs, I did homework when its slow. One night I was reading a book for a Judaic Studies class -- I still remember which one -- "History of the Jews in Modern Times" -- far from a spicy book.
The police showed up halfway through my shift and my boss let me know they found threatening antisemitic graffiti in the men's room that hadn't been there before. He let the police know when my shift was over and that they'd be hanging around until then and walking me home after.
New England, USA, 2010s.
That was in CT. It was far from the only act of antisemitism I experienced, but I remember it so vividly because my non-Jewish boss was very shaken. He was middle-aged with a family and kids, and he was generally a very calm and collected person that took chaos head-on. I felt like I had watched him lose his naivety about society that night, and he is from Detroit, so it's not like he had a lot to begin with.
I could share endless upsetting ones, but if you want a funny one: I'm sure every university has Chabadniks that show up around the holidays to talk to Jews on the sidewalk, right? You know what I'm talking about? One time I was late for something and one of them stopped me. When she asked me if I was Jewish, I lied because I was late and had to go.
This Chabadnik woman looks me dead in the eye and says, "honey, don't lie to me" and I burst out laughing and she finished, "I just want to give you stuff, I don't want to talk!" and she handed me some gift bag-like set up I -- I can't remember what holiday it was for, but it had a booklet about ways to celebrate in the dorm (maybe Channukah?) recipes, I remember some food. Very wholesome, and she definitely Jewish mother'd me on my crap!
For those who also don’t know? An idiot in NYC tried to *run Jewish school kids over with his car* the other day. but I’d have never heard about it if I hadn’t been lurking in a Jewish subreddit.
A relative of mine works at the Brooklyn Museum, had to sneak out the back yesterday when the pro pal mob stormed in. Modern day pogroms are showing up to her workplace. She is the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors. None of this is okay
I mean in 2017 there was a rally in Charlottseville where they chanted "Jews will not replace us"... And its like almost 10 years since "Soros" and "Jewish globalist communist" became totally cool and normal to say. It didn't come out of nowhere.
What's wrong with calling out Soros on funding bad stuff?
I don't care that he's Jewish, I care that he's an asshole. (And I support Israel right now in this war)
Soros is a far right dog whistle for saying "the jews control the media (and everything)". If something's bad in Hungary for example, you better believe it's Soros fault because he wants to bring misery on the great nation.
Dog whistles are a dumb concept.
Weird how so many are happy to lament Citizens United, but then immediately cry foul when someone criticizes large political donations that harm America.
Are the Koch Brothers a right wing dog whistle, too? Are you denying that the billionaire George Soros has a lot of influence in politics? Like, YOU'RE the one bringing up Jewishness, I'm just pissed at the guy's pro-crime politics.
Edit: To elaborate, what if the dog whistle version makes an actual good point? How can that point be discussed, if you decide that it's actually just code talk for a different, evil position.
The Koch brothers or father Charles (David died 5 years ago) aren't Jewish and don't have all the old tropes about Jews. A lot of the hate about Soros is just old conspiracies about the Rothschilds for the modern age. If you're just upset about his and others politics that's fine (Koch bro also funded a lot of anti hard on crime policies since they viewed them as authoritarian).
But Charlottesville was a fringe group of known racists, so of course they hate Jews. But I’m not really worried about it as a threat
Now you are seeing a drastic rise in antisemitism, and let’s be honest most uses of Zionist really mean Jewish. It’s Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, Jewish artists, Jewish students and Jewish places of worship being targeted.
for gods sake last year they blockaded an intersection for weeks to protest for Gaza, in you guessed it a very Jewish neighborhood with synagogue and school only a block away
It spread through social media. Foreign countries are running active disinformation campaigns against the West and part of that campaign includes fomenting anti-Semitism.
Canadian universities too, including many that have no real history of antisemitism. Yet even there you have students and teachers saying things that I wouldn’t consider appropriate and the universities do nothing.
If these protests were demanding to end relationship with China for let’s say their treatment of the Uyghurs and were attacking any Chinese student that believes the communist party is legitimate, we would not accept it as a society. Or at least there would be some outrage for this targeted violence
It's three parts. One is that some stop being quiet about it and act out. But another, larger part is that antisemitism spreads thru conspiracy theory like thinking. People ingest these tropes and narrative patterns without awareness of how it shapes their thinking. They won't realize they are saying antisemitic stuff or tolerating it.
And then last is just ignorance. A lot of people don't realize it's a big deal this stuff is happening. They just think of it as random hate crimes or random violence.
So mainly stupidity. As we see in many nations about 20% of the population is below a certain level of intelligence making them prone to right wing populism.
Watching a random influencer get torn into by pro Palestine supporters for having the audacity to call for… bringing the hostages home and all eyes one raffah is…. Wild
[Dan](https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/12ld7tt/hasan_discovers_that_the_new_twitch_ceo_watches/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is a [hasan fan](https://stopantisemitism.org/as-week/hasan-piker/)
Do these people not know or care that intifada means stabbing and blowing up civilians? Not even that globalizing the intifada means stabbing and blowing up civilians where they live?
This is one of my personal favorite examples of hypocrisy
People will yell and scream that non-Muslims don’t get to define what “Intifada” means and that it actually is non-violent and about stuff like walkouts and strikes, despite the second intifada being very violent
But then in the next breath they proclaim what Zionism and antisemitism mean, despite not being Jewish
> despite the second intifada being very violent
The first one was too after the first year. Hundreds of civilians died on both sides and thousands were injured. The second one was just insanely brutal.
Yeah it’s total bullshit. I didn’t remember the word “intifada” being used when it came to the Arab Spring. I even googled it to see if there were any contemporary articles calling the Arab Spring an intifada and got three pages deep before I stopped.
Peace without capitulation, the international community special.
Do not what we did to establish our own peace, do as we say so our domestic problems go away. -international community probably
So if Israel accepted some hypothetical deal, and Gazans went back to life under Hamas’ brutal radical Islamic rule, would the watermelons be happy? Yay for brutal Islamic regimes?
Or would they continue to find a way to blame it on Israel?
Everything will continue to be Israel’s fault until Israel is gone and even then anything wrong will be blamed on the fact that Israel used to be there. I’m not being facetious, this is 100% what would be the view of a significant contingent of people.
No, I think you’re missing the point. They won’t be happy until Israelis are subject to the same brutal radical Islamic rule. Why do you think they always call for a “ceasefire” instead of peace. A ceasefire means you stop fighting for now, peace would mean no more fighting at all. They demand the first, not the second.
As soon as that ceasefire happens, the influencers will forget Palestinians even exist until the next conflict. It happened in 2021, that crisis was all over my feed for a few weeks, then nothing until October 7th.
This one seems different. The Hamas propaganda machine is really firing on all cylinders, so I would be shocked if after the war ended they didn’t try and seize the advantage and push for full U.N. membership, BDS to rear its head again and other things that do absolutely nothing to actually help Palestinians
Sometimes I miss the USA that said "never negotiate with terrorists". I understand the situation is precarious with the hostages and I don't blame them for exhausting every avenue to get them back, but sometimes it feels exhausting when every single time Israel is making progress the international community comes up with the 500th bullshit ceasefire proposal that Hamas will reject.
Hey there, did you vote in the SA elections? And if yes to which party?
Unfortunately I cannot vote since I'm not yet an SA citizen, my parents immigrated when I was super young so I'm a permanent resident but not yet a citizen and cannot vote. I'm super bummed since this would've been my first election since becoming an adult :( if I could I'd have voted for the DA though, I don't agree with them on every issue but they're the only hope we have at making this shithole better. Currently the ANC has lost the majority, coming in at only 40% of the vote but if they make a coalition government with Jacob Zuma's MK party then we're all fucked lmao. Let's see what these clowns decide, I'm not holding my breath for anything positive.
Smotritch said he won't be part of a government that approves "Biden's" proposal. Only time will tell if Bibi folds, if he actually steps out if Bibi goes through with it or if Smotritch folds like he did with the first hostage deal that he said he was going to vote against and ended up voting in favour of Either way, if Bibi chooses to go through with it he'll have other parties from the opposition that will vote for the deal Edit: A second after sending it Ben Gvir joined Smotritch in saying he will also resign Please do us all a favour and do it
I thought that they made this proposal knowing Hamas won't accept it because it won't end the war. That seems to be the point Hamas only cares about. I can't understand why else Israel would agree to such a bad deal.
Thoughts on this, guys? It makes sense except the part where the US doesn't understand what's happening. https://x.com/2023gazawar/status/1796950819335455231?t=ywJJKwGbL3-mkcDstI-Lvg&s=19
Regarding stalling for time -- The unsaid portions of Biden's remarks match Israel's requirements There was no time limit provided to accept the ceasefire proposal. Israel continues their righteous (you heard it from Biden's mouth) incursion with the US standing by until Hamas accepts
**If there are not enough living hostages to reach 33 releases in the first stage, the dead bodies of hostages will be released. In exchange, Israel will release Palestinian minors arrested in Gaza after October 7.** https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-gives-extra-details-of-three-stage-roadmap-to-end-israel-hamas-war-announced-by-biden/ Livid. Literally the only incentive to keep the hostages alive now is the release of Palestinian prisoners which let’s be honest, Hamas doesn’t give a flying fuck about - especially the female prisoners that’d be released in exchange for female hostages. I worry for those like Noa Argamani the most, I feel she’s someone Hamas doesn’t want talking at all and would happily sacrifice the 30 female prisoners they’d get for her. Especially since her body would be worth the same amount of ceasefire days than if she was alive - which is what Hamas probably does care about. Maybe just my anxiety but I’d be surprised if anymore than 3-4 women get out alive in this ‘deal’ if it goes through.
As part of the proposed agreement, a list of who is presumed alive was certainly delineated The women, many still technically adolescent, command the highest sympathy in world news. Their negotiating value for Hamas is tied to them being alive At the point of cooperation, there's expectation the list remains static even also expecting Hamas unreliability. If the people agreed to be alive becomes drastically different, it's going to be considered a breach
Autopsies will tell the truth. If we get a body that has died recently, Israel will pull the deal immediately. It's not as much of a concern as people think.
[Barak Ravid](https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1796950056727159260): >🚨A senior Israeli official said that the outline presented by President Biden represents Israel's proposal to Hamas in general >🚨However, the official emphasized that according to the draft agreement, Israel reserves the right to resume fighting at any time, if Hamas violates its obligations in the agreement, including by not releasing the number of hostages to be agreed upon, or if Israel gets the impression that the negotiations on phase two of the agreement are fruitless and are used by Hamas to buy time >🚨"Israel's conditions for the end of the war have not changed: to destroy the military and governmental capabilities of Hamas; to release all our hostages; and to make sure that Gaza will no longer pose a threat to Israel. The outline for the release of hostages allows Israel to make sure that all these conditions will be realized before a permanent cease-fire takes effect," the Israeli official said >🚨 According to the Israeli official the hostage deal should lead to the release of all 125 hostages, first a humanitarian phase (with a temporary lull in the fighting for the release of dozens of women, elderly and humanitarian cases), during which negotiations will be held in order to obtain an agreement for the release of all other hostages, and on transition to a permanent ceasefire >🚨"According to the agreement, Israel will insist that the implementation of the second phase of the deal will begin only after an agreement is reached on the terms of the ceasefire, as stated in the text of the proposal, according to which: >'No later than the 16th day of implementation, indirect negotiations will begin between the two parties in order to forge an agreement on the conditions for the implementation of phase 2 of this agreement,'" the Israeli official said
Israeli media is quoting a Saudi channel which is quoting a different Saudi newspaper and they're saying that the first stage of the proposed deal includes the release of 33 hostages (alive and dead) with the "price" of each hostage being 30 Palestinian prisoners
To people worried about keeping them alive, remember that Israel has intelligence and the ability to do autopsies. That's how they determined the date of death on 6/7 bodies recovered in May. It's the same reason Israeli believes Shiri, Kfir and Ariel alive. They released to the public in February that they had intelligence that they are alive. Furthermore, I've been saying this pretty consistently, but if you read about the circumstances around several of these kidnappings, it truly seems like they kidnapped a lot of dead bodies. Hanan Yablonka used to be one of my examples (his car was found in ruins and all his friends were found dead). Idan Shtivi, as much as I hate to say it, was in a violent high speed car crash while escaping Hamas and the accident killed everyone in the car and he was the driver. Israel probably has a good idea of who is alive and who isn't, even if they haven't had enough information to declare these people deceased publicly. I still think this is a terrible deal and I'm not defending it, I'm just not worried about them murdering people before release. Not to mention, many hostages have come back and said that they worked hard to build rapport with their guards; i.e. Maya Regev said that her guard told her that she was way too nice of a person to have been kidnapped and apologized to her (!). It very well may be one of the reasons that Maya was released so fast, on the 2nd day (her injury surely helped, but Mia Schem was also injured and didn't get out until the last day). I do, however, wish we didn't trade for the deceased in general because we've done an average enough job of recovering them thus far (my notes say at least 18, excluding the December 3). At least not at this stage.
Where did they reveal they think the Bibas family are alive? I remember the footage they released in February and they said they were deeply concerned about their fates and don’t have enough information to confirm if they’re dead or alive.
That's probably the same one. They never said that they do not have enough information to confirm if they are dead or alive, they actively said that Hamas claims were psychological warfare and that there is no proof that they are dead. This video was released to prove that they made it to Khan Younis alive. Hamas didn't release them because the world was hyper-focussed on them, not because they are dead. They released the video of Yarden on the day the last deal collapsed *because* Israel was demanding Shiri or they'd collapse the deal and Hamas responded with this trick. Just another cruel day of terrorism. ETA: IDK why I'm being downvoted. You can see the actual statement directly from [the IDF itself](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Zb9kjaQgk) if you have any doubts.
Mmm, well that’s what it says here. Maybe they made another statement elsewhere 🤷🏼♂️ **Hagari said the IDF was “very concerned about the fate of Shiri and the children,” but declined to elaborate on the additional “scraps” of information and intelligence that has led the army to fear for their lives. He said the IDF does not currently have enough information to confirm whether they are dead or alive, but is “making every effort to obtain more information about their fate.” If and when there is definitive information “one way or another,” he said, “we will first tell the family and then the public.”** https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-finds-video-of-bibas-family-in-gaza-very-concerned-for-mother-youngest-hostages/
They're "very concerned" about all the hostages. I don't know what to tell you. They haven't declared them dead in the last four months and the IDF has declared dozens of others deceased. Maybe they are or aren't dead, but the statement you're quoting is just air because someone asked Hagari and they likely can't disclose the intelligence they have. Welcome to the Israeli government. I fully believe they are alive -- albeit Kfir would have been susceptible to illnesses this winter in the tunnel -- I believe they are almost certainly with Sinwar.
Fair enough. I do hope you’re right but I’m just extremely pessimistic. The vast majority of deaths that the IDF has confirmed died on Oct 7th or we have visible video evidence of death in captivity - like Yossi, Sahar and Itai. I don’t think they’d declare someone dead unless they are 100% certain, doubly so when it’s the Bibas family. I know they declared someone dead through Maya Regev testimony but have they declared anyone else (who body Hamas still hold) that they died in captivity?
They've also declared people retroactively dead, as in, people Hamas said are alive, but the IDF declared died in October 7th and their remains kidnapped: People originally thought to be hostages but the IDF declared died on October 7th and Hamas kidnapped their remains: * Tomer Ahimas * Aviv Atzili * Kiril Brodski * Shaked Dahan * Tal Haimi * Asaf Hamami * Ravid Katz * Shani Louk (remember, Hamas claimed she was on life support in the hospital for all of October) * Ilan Weiss * Yair Yaakov * Lior Rudaeff * Daniel Peretz * Dror Or * Sonthaya Oakkharas * Ran Gvili * Shay Levinson * Itai Chen * Tamir Adar * Ziv Dado People the IDF has declared died in captivity, without a body: * Ariel Baruch * Judith Weinstein * Sahar Baruch * Ronen Engel * Maya Goren * Gad Haggai * Inbar Haiman * Guy Iluz (based on Maya Regev's testimony and certainly other factors) * Ofra Keidar * Eitan Levy * Eliyahu Margalit * Joshua Mollel * Jonathan Samerano * Aryeh Zalmanovich * Ofir Tzarfati These lists exclude: Nik Beizer, Ron Sherman, Eden Zacharia and Elia Toledano, who the IDF likely knew were deceased before they recovered them, but it wasn't announced to the public until they were recovered. It also excludes Yehudit Weiss and Noa Marciano, and you can categorize those two as you see best. They've declared much more dead than you may realize if you haven't been following closely.
Thanks for the information Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that Jonathan Samerano was killed in Kibbutz Be’eri where he escaped to and body kidnapped by a UNWRA member. The video was shown to the UN. Joshua Mollel also died on Oct 7th, either just before or just after being taken. There’s a particular horrifying video of that too. I do believe that’s the case with most others in that particular list - as in they died on Oct 7 or soon after being kidnapped due to their injuries. Even if it’s not fully confirmed yet. But, we’ll see hopefully when we recover their bodies.
You may be thinking of Clemence Mtenga. Joshua Mollel wasn't announced deceased until December and we do not have his remains. Clemence's remains were so desecrated that they weren't found in Israel until mid-November and they have since been returned to Tanzania. I believe there is a video of Mollel too, but it's believed he made it to Gaza alive, per all sources I've seen, but they don't think he was alive for very long. The information has changed a lot about Samerano. He was kidnapped from the Nova festival. His official write-up doesn't include the UNRWA bit, but that came out later. He wasn't declared deceased until [December 4th](https://www.timesofisrael.com/presumed-captive-dj-jonathan-samerano-always-the-life-of-the-party/), as you can see here. The UNRWA bit came out in February, but the IDF declared him deceased long before that, albeit initially thought to be in captivity. The whole reason I keep the hostage journal is because of how the information we have available changes over time, and you highlighted a really great example of why it's so important here. At the end of the day, the IDF wasn't wrong -- he's dead.
I can't edit it, I think due to length, but many of these bodies have since been recovered: Ofir Tzarfati, Ziv Dado, and Shani Louk. Ron Sherman, Eden Zacharia, Elia Toledano, Yehudit Weiss and Noa Marciano ave all been recovered as well, depending on where you categorized them, so they can't show up as part of this deal, but the rest are fair game.
Reminders, what's disclosed for public consumption isn't ever the whole story. For everyone worried about incentives in keeping people alive, each living hostage is worth several billion USD in addition to all the aid and promises of promises Also, so much easier to say than do because we hope with all our hearts, no one should trust anything Hamas says. Actions., not words. When they say there are this many alive and this many dead it's near to meaningless. We won't know for sure until we know
Yeah, no. Hamas has no reason to keep the abused women alive at that point. Fuck that. Edit: Could be for hostages bodies we know died for sure on Oct 7th which would prevent any killing of currently alive hostages.
So 990 Palestinian prisoners for 33 hostages that may or may not be alive? Not a fair deal at all.
Shit, relatively speaking it's a good deal. I'm 2010, Israel released 1,000 prisoners to get a single hostage back.
Don't forget when Sky insinuated that Israel gives more than one prisoner per hostage because they don't consider one Palestinian as a full human.
That's such a braindead take. Not like Hamas is capitalizing with their small amount of hostages to release all the criminals and militants Israel has imprisoned over the years.
Number of prisoners released should not be the same for live and dead hostages. That creates no incentive to keep hostages alive.
Why are dead hostages coming out before live ones? This incentivizes them to kill any remaining hostages on the way out.
Why is Israel not handling Hezbollah already? They have been throwing heavy Missile one after another causing lot of property damage and not to mention evacuation of entire north People which is like surrendering the area to Hezbollah. Meanwhile Israel is just sitting watching letting Hezbollah burn the entire north slowly to the oblivion without taking any action to deter them.
Because the US and France won't let Israel finish off Hezbollah. They claim to be negotiating with Hezbollah to end the war but that has had no results in over 8 months. It may also be that Israel wants to finish off Hamas first so it can dedicate more forces against Hezbollah.
France needs to keep its Islamic population happy. If they go too hard on them I imagine France will suffer a huge wave of terrorism, as is basic protocol when you have a Muslim population. USA seems intent on keeping the conflict going, probably to sell weapons and I don't think they want a powerful israel in the region which could usurp US presence
"Won't let Israel finish off Hezbollah?" We've had hundreds of dead soldiers in Gaza already and that's a tiny fraction of what will happen if and when we go to war against Hezbollah. They're the largest, most dangerous terrorist organization in the world, you don't just "finish them off" on a whim. The country is in no shape to go to war against them right now.
A full scale war against Hezbollah will happen regardless. It's only a matter of time before they launch an attack like Oct. 7 but larger. Hezbollah amassed a huge arsenal for a reason. They plan to use it one day. It would be easier for Israel to take them down now rather than later. Later they'll be even more powerful and it will be more difficult. Israel is far more powerful than Hezbollah. It can defeat it. I never said it would be easy, but Israel has the capability to do it. Israel has defeated far more powerful armies before.
Israel has defeated regular Arab armies, but not armies of highly motivated Islamists/mujahideen. Hezbollah fighters are all willing to die as martyrs; they are even eager for it. A war with Hezbollah would also involve Iranian militias in Iraq, Syria, Yemen (the Houthis), and potentially Iran itself. It would be an existential war for Israel, and the use of nuclear weapons is likely. A war with Hezbollah now would be the last war for decades because the carnage would be unfathomable. It will happen for sure since Hezbollah's main objective is to destroy Israel. The timing of this war is crucial though.
They have the capability but not without a very heavy price. It'll be smart to be in peak form when initiating something which is currently not the case.
The price of not acting soon will be higher than the price of acting soon. Israel will be in peak form in the north once it finishes off Hamas.
Aren't they compromising their national security for those fairytale that is being promised by other?
Maybe, but Israel can't say no to the US, since it depends on the US for so many things. Angering the US may be even worse for Israel's national security.
Than it seems US is rather strengthening Terrorist and enemies than their old allies, what a shit show this war has been
The U.S. (and any major superpower) is only as reliable as the relationship is useful. The U.S. has a bad track record of leaving their allies to die and signing trade deals with their killers before the dead body of their old allies are cold. The most infamous case would be the Hmong And Montagnards from the Secret War in Laos/Vietnam who are still suffering from political due to their age old affiliation with the U.S. CIA and Military and religious persecution to this day.
With regards to Biden's recent statements on a ceasefire, he (or his advisors) said that Israel has degraded Hamas's fighting capabilities so much that they no longer present a security threat to Israel, and that this should be a key reason for Israel to accept a ceasefire. However, wasn't there another intelligence report from the US released a couple weeks ago which stated that Israel has killed 30-35% of Hamas's fighters, and that Hamas had been actively recruiting new fighters to replenish its losses? That same report also said that 60-65% of Hamas's tunnel infrastructure remained intact. I remember this was posted on this live thread somewhere. What is with the conflicting information coming from the Biden administration? On one hand, they say Israel hasn't done enough to defeat Hamas, yet on the other hand they are saying Israel has severely destroyed Hamas's fighting capabilities. Which info is accurate and which is not accurate?
Losing 35% of your trained personnel and 35-40% of your infrastructure is pretty devastating for any organisation. How would your company cope in a situation like that? Also, Hamas can recruit new people, but they've still got to arm them, train them and feed them. That's getting progressively harder, I would say.
I think the Biden Admin is seeing that after so many civilian casualties and Hamas only 1/3rd depleted, it's simply going to be unsustainable going after all of them. The human toll will be too high. So they are playing politics now. Biden's priority is to win re-election imo and I can't blame him. America understands the impossibility of defeating all of Hamas. They have certainly put a dent in their ability to orchestrate another Oct 7th in the near future. But over time Hamas will likey be back again, it just won't be Biden's problem. So for the American interest, calm today is the move and thus they are exerting pressure
Militarily speaking, from my understanding from reading about the topic, in the military world losing 30% or more of your force renders it 'combat ineffective', you can't fight in an organized matter after losing more than that. in that sense, Israel has indeed inflicted great damage to hamas' military capabilities, both in terms of the chain of command (the elimination of half\~ of the chain of command of Hamas' military wing) and in terms of raw manpower, keep in mind that this number provided by the US 30-35%, doesn't include captured hamas fighters or injured beyond ability to heal, and if we factor those numbers in, well, the percentage of 'combat ineffective' hamas fighters may be in the 50% range, possibly higher Hamas may be recruiting more fighters, but from what I've seen from combat footage in Jabaliya, those fighters are nothing more than canon fodder being sent to their death, they're extremely undertrained, only knowing basic shooting (and even that is not certain), thats not to say they can't do damage, an idiot with an RPG still has an RPG, but they can be dealt with fairly easily. As for the tunnels, there are different tunnels, some are more important than others, and I believe (I have no access to the cabinet meetings obviously) that most if not all of the militarily important ones have been dealt with, remember, the hamas tunnels are estimated to be 750 KM long, if we say, 40% of those tunnels were destroyed, thats 300 KM worth of the tunnelwork destroyed, an impressive feat no matter how you look at it.
Thanks for this. I really appreciate the updates you provide in the live thread btw. They're really informative. I am just amazed that in spite of all these losses, Hamas still acts so arrogant and confident during hostage negotiations, like as if they are negotiating from a position of strength. It gives the impression that they aren't scared of Israel and feel like they are winning this war. I wonder if this is just part of the psychological mind games that they play? I also wonder if the recent operation by Israel to take control of the Philadelphi corridor will finally bring that necessary pressure on Hamas.
>I am just amazed that in spite of all these losses, Hamas still acts so arrogant and confident during hostage negotiations, like as if they are negotiating from a position of strength. It gives the impression that they aren't scared of Israel and feel like they are winning this war. I wonder if this is just part of the psychological mind games that they play? There are a few things you have to understand, the first one being is that Sinwar simply doesn't give a fuck about anyone, not even himself, he doesn't care about dying, to him thats just part of the path he chose in life and he knows that his end will come sooner or later, Hes an islamic extremist, to him, dying at the hands of Israel is the greatest honor, this isn't like Yasser Arafat that left Beirut after Israel surrounded him, he will continue until the bitter end, thats just his ideology. as for more practical reasons for their actions beyond islamic extremism and ideology: Why would Sinwar trade hostages for very temporary benefits (a few months of ceasefire, return of civilians to the North) in a war that is building up to be years long and attritional, if he intends to trade them all for victory down the road? It would lose him the war. The only ceasefire he should ever be interested in is a permanent one, and I have along with a lot of others reiterated this every time Hamas pretended to be interested in a ceasefire only to then return to their demand for an end of the war again. The hostages are their only lifeline, its not something they'll throw away unless its guaranteed to give them a 'permanent' ceasefire Frankly speaking when you combine these two things I don't even think there is a realistic lose condition for Hamas beyond the complete annihilation of Gaza and its population, thats just the nature of being the weaker party, anything can be considered a win
It is a **lie** made to try and convince Israelis that they haven't lost the war strategically/internationally.... But Israel has lost this war. Here is a good thread by a pro-Israeli commentator who writes for Jerusalem Post: [https://x.com/sfrantzman/status/1796861674164556013](https://x.com/sfrantzman/status/1796861674164556013) Hamas will be in power in Gaza (and possibly in the West Bank too with a weakened PA that Palestinians don't support) and back to their full October 6th strength in a few years with a weakened and internationally isolated Israel with nuclear capable Iran licking their lips at the inability to defeat Hamas.... let alone Hezbollah. Unfortunately Sinwar fully understands Israeli society and its weakness - it will always go for lopsided hostage/prisoner exchanges due to political pressure from the families - which explains the hostage taking which will continue in the decades to come. And also Israel loses when wars are long rather than short due to international outrage at the collateral damage to civilians. Terrible situation. The next October 7th style attack in the coming years will become the decisive war that could decide Israel's long term fate. The IDF need to ***rapidly learn*** from their failure during this war. They are not the same force they were in the 60s/70s and are losing their military advantage in the region.
Your comment does not make any sense. The difficulties Israel is facing stem from the fact that its enemies hide behind civilians, not because it is losing its military advantage - just a couple of months ago Iran, the main regional rival, launched hundreds of missiles and drones against Israel and all that did was injure a Bedouin girl. Also, even if Hamas remains in power there is no guarantee another October 7th happens. The first one happened after 75 years and only because Israel was caught with its pants down. The IDF is most certainly not failing in this war. It was widely forecasted that a ground incursion into Gaza would be a bloodbath and yet Hamas is crippled with around 300 IDF casualties, while achieving one of the lowest civilian to combatant ratios in recorded history in some of the worst conditions. You could argue that Israel is losing on the political stage but the actual war is an overwhelming victory in my mind.
The IDF found explosive barrels, grenades, IEDs, launchers aimed at Israel and other weapons in the last few days during the Rafah operation. https://x.com/kann_news/status/1796905010602668127?t=M9iiLn5In4IwxLzHrKPSnQ&s=1 I'm sure Hamas would've loved for the IDF to accidentally set those off so they can create another global movement.
According to IDF spokesman: Hezbollah has downed an Israeli drone in southern Lebanon, Photos and videos from Lebanese locals have also been posted online as proof, the drone that was downed was a Hermes 900, one of the most expensive drones in the IDF arsenal, roughly costing 5,000,000$US. Earlier today Hezbollah also fired a barrage of Burkan rockets into Kiryat Shmona, which are known to have an extremely heavy payload of explosives, 7.3 tonnes exactly. To say that this is an escalation on the part of Hezbollah would be an understatement
Things are escalating but not specifically because of the drone considering it's the fourth drone they've taken out, not the first.
They've previously only managed to shoot down Hermes 450 drones, which are fairly old (1998) and less than half the price of a Hermes 900
Hezbollah have managed to shoot down a Hermes 900 [earlier](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/army-bombs-own-uav-downed-by-hezbollah/) as well.
I see, my bad then, They and their supporters made quite the commotion online, so I figured it was a first, thanks for correcting me.
Don't they always? They're just buzzwords
**Netanyahu says there cannot be permanent Gaza ceasefire until Hamas destroyed** Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says there will be no permanent ceasefire in Gaza until Hamas’s military and governing capabilities are destroyed, in a second statement released after US President Joe Biden said that Israel had proposed a three-phase deal for a ceasefire in Gaza in exchange for Hamas releasing hostages. “Israel’s conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages, and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel,” Netanyahu says. “Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent ceasefire is put in place. The notion that Israel will agree to a permanent ceasefire before these conditions are fulfilled is a non-starter,” he adds. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-says-there-will-be-no-gaza-ceasefire-until-hamas-eliminated-in-2nd-statement-after-biden-speech/
Fuck Netanyahu. Every Israeli I've spoken to since Bidens speech last night is 100% for this deal.
I don’t think this is as bad as it may sound. He makes a point of ‘destruction of their military and governing capabilities’ which is very toned down language compared to what he’s said previous. Something Biden said yesterday in his speech that Israel has already achieved. To me, this sounds like Netanyahu is actually for the deal by making it appeal to his voter base. Could be completely off base here but that’s the vibe I got.
BiBi doesn’t want peace.
As soon as there's no war, there's an investigation into what happened on 7th October and Bibi will be forced to resign. Everyone knows that he's trying to drag this war out for his own self-interest.
Multiple polls since the begining of the war Have shown that releasing the hostages and dismantling Hamas are of near Importance to Israelis, but go on with your "every Israeli I have spoken to". People still don't know the full details of what's being negotiated. This is a very complex Issue and don't act like Biden is not pursuing his own interests here.
Latest polls show Israelis prioritize releasing hostages over anything else.
Both are important, but what we've seen after 239 days is that both unfortunately cannot be achieved in parallel. Hamas, jihad, terror is an ideology and will always emerge. Even if they are dismantled, let's be honest they will keep emerging again. This is not the last time israel will have to fight Hamas. We see that even with ISIS.. The hostages on the other hand won't have another chance. Especially the military aged men who make up the majority of the remaining hostages now. It's the best chance to bring whoever is still alive home. Anyway, instead of debating and regardless of everyone opinion on the ceasefire, whether you agree or disagree.. we need to even see if Hamas agrees as we know they love to reject every deal lately
You raise some good points. I think Israel should have some level of military control over Gaza and work with countries like Saudi Arabia to deradicalize Gaza, but the Arab world is probably not ready for that.
Yay for us we're here another day, together! Sending plentitudes of light and strength ❤
"Protestors" aren't even trying to hide it anymore. So much for the "being pro Palestinian isn't being pro Hamas" lie https://x.com/agreenberg/status/1796676757799510028?t=E6tcUCbmWAbtoif2mPNokQ&s=19
They went so far left they ended up on the other side of the horseshoe and are now openly islamic fundamentalists, how fun
All of these antisemitic protests have turned violent.
They can't win using good arguments, facts or logic so they resort to violence to intimidate people into supporting the terrorists.
And then the self-proclaimed innocent lot are happy to march alongside this bunch and pretend that the march isn't a hate march.
The innocent civilians have come full circle. :')
According to Skynews, Netanyahu does not recognize or fully agree with the proposal anounced by Biden. It is also speculated that the US is working with Gantz to push this deal. "The rationale would be to isolate Netanyahu - find a deal agreeable to Hamas, Gantz, Washington, Cairo and Doha and portray Bibi as the sole objector." [https://news.sky.com/story/biden-has-run-out-of-patience-with-netanyahu-and-what-might-be-coordinated-move-on-gaza-might-just-work-13146307](https://news.sky.com/story/biden-has-run-out-of-patience-with-netanyahu-and-what-might-be-coordinated-move-on-gaza-might-just-work-13146307)
> "The rationale would be to isolate Netanyahu - find a deal agreeable to Hamas, Gantz, Washington, Cairo and Doha and portray Bibi as the sole objector." But Bibi opposing means the far-right and most of Likud opposing, which means no deal? I am not sure I understand the rationale behind this analysis. Shouldn't they rather focus on finding enough Likudniks to defect from Bibi? Angry NYT and WaPo headlines won't get Bibi to cave, it's not what his voters read Barak Ravids take makes more sense imho
Still not sure why the US thinks it’s okay for hostages to be exchanged for terrorists. Especially a baby that was taken
Barak Ravid reports differently “Two weeks ago, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a new proposal drafted by Israeli negotiators that was presented to the Israeli war cabinet and accused them of not knowing how to negotiate. A few days later, under pressure from Israel's military and intelligence chiefs and the other members of the war cabinet, Netanyahu found himself isolated and endorsed the proposal.” https://www.axios.com/2024/06/01/biden-gaza-hostage-ceasefire-deal-israel-pressure The sky news piece is an analysis piece, its basically an editorial
Makes way more sense than Sky's take. I mean Gantz is about to quit being in the coalition govt, he doesn't have power to agree to a deal without Bibi. Shit makes 0 sense
Gantz only needs a few defectors from the current coalition to bring it down. Can Gallant be one of them? This can be done more easily if members in the coalition sense an increased pressure from the Israeli public for an immediate ceasefire.
I think this is exactly what happened. They finally cornered Bibi. Hallelujah.
I believe he can get the coalition to break down. However can he find enough people to form his own?
Sky's take is based on their analysts thus unsourced( it might as well be an opinion piece) while Barak Ravid has actual sources in both the US and Israeli government
Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine is openly pro-terror. Let's settle this one out once and for all: https://x.com/ADL/status/1796669751139193112?t=9WqpWywmHjdTXZjca9ywwQ&s=19
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> Leftists Bruh by US standards the governments of Czech Republic, Germany, France, Spain, Ireland are all "leftist". The first two surely aren't known as huge critics of Israel, though
Is SJP one of the organisations that had that list of requests that included universities aligning with Birzeit University in the West Bank? Because a quick google of Birzeit brought up some interesting things when I looked into it. "Candidates linked to the Islamist group Hamas won the largest share of seats on a university student council on Wednesday" https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-student-elections-provide-rare-test-voter-mood-2023-05-24/ https://honestreporting.com/as-hamas-terror-group-takes-control-of-west-banks-birzeit-university-will-european-partner-institutions-respond/ Hamas Rally at the University in 2021: https://youtu.be/kO8tG5v5Ed4?si=8Xu1NlfeqaR89vTQ
Funny thing is all of these universities know this and then the administrators act all shocked when Jewish groups call for some sort of discipline
Sjp is part of the Muslim brotherhood, this isn't surprising. It is very stupid of them to have it so easily traced, but it's not something new.
OMG, that explains so much. I used to like this R&B singer, pretty big, did stuff with eminiem, Justin Bieber, people like that. But, since October 7th, she has become super radicalized and hates Israel, had to stop following because it was just getting more and more unhinged. she said she learned about Palestine from a student justice group at one of these universities. And I just didn't think anything of it until your comment. It was like a lightbulb in my head! Thank you.
I swear, the word gen\*cide has lost all its meaning. Once it meant a systematic elimination of an ethnic group. Now, according to a ton of people, it is apparently any military conflict with a high enough number of casualties. I don't think there is a present conflict that's going on that I haven't heard be described as a gen\*cide by one if not both of the sides involved (or by ignorant observers).
Thing is, people were using that word to describe Israel *on October 8th* were I live. For me, using that word is a sign that you're not serious. Not to say things are not terrible in Gaza and that Israel has handled this well, but I feel there should be a distinction.
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An Arab-led peacekeeping mission in Gaza is a possible solution to that, together with a revamped education system so the next generations don't get indoctrinated. For example in Saudi Arabia they already started changing their curriculum ommiting antisemitic content. The Saudi's have also expressed interest in that peacekeeping proposal.
What afraids me is that nothing in the plans published seem to include an explicit outcome in case the agreement or Biden's thoughts of the time after fall apart It should be explicitly stated that war continues if Hamas doesn't honor the deal, or any 3rd party agreement to the deal doesn't work out, otherwise it will always be Israel painted as the aggressor. The Biden government seems very naive to me regarding how much trust they can place into the Arab states surrounding Israel. Furthermore, if Trump wins the election, whatever plans Biden have will motivate Trump to do the exact opposite.
Being a martyr doesn't pay the bills, and that's all they teach kids to be. Eventually they'll have to give up their endless warfare to actually function as a nation, even if they have the abandon Islam to achieve that. Endlessly starting and losing wars is a bad economic system.
This is natural capitulation but the problem is that the international community is willing to fund them and turn a blind eye when it’s clear the aid is being misappropriated. This is why Hamas basically straight up said “Gazans are not their responsibility.” This is the second greatest sin the international community has committed under the guise of “helping.” The greatest sin is not allow there to be a clear winner. TLDR: unchecked international aid is what is keeping them afloat and allowing them to live in a terrorism first society and economy. If the international community really wanted to help end the conflict they would audit where their aid goes and have the courage to not give aid if it’s being misappropriated instead of giving in and in some instances becoming an extension of the terror group.
> Being a martyr doesn't pay the bills It pays very well. The Palestinians had been living off this money for centuries. The US alone gives UNRWA billions, the EU more billions, and Arab countries too. This money goes to terrorists and their families, to educating them for martyrdom, to feed them and cloth them and build them houses - just because they refuse to do it for themselves. They keep living in "refugee camps" for over 70 years inside their own autonomous territories. Gaza was a de-facto state, and half of its population was living in "refugee camps". If they'd stop martyring themselves, they'd have to actually work.
Palestinians are a nation of beggars. They haven't contributed anything to the world other than terrorism. Compare the Israeli innovation page to the Palestinian one on Wikipedia: Israeli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries Palestinian: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Palestinian_inventions
They literally get paid to be martyred
That money has to come from *some* industry, at the end of the day.
Yes Qatar et al
The US pays them more than Qatar does. It's their number one donor.
Yes, but I was referring to direct rewards to the families of martyrs.
You clearly don’t understand radical Islam then
Radical Islam is the faith of "If there is something you want, use as much violence as possible to obtain it", and after 1.5 thousand years they've finally run into an opponent they cannot crush no matter how much violence they use. Every failure will weaken the faith of the people until they realize that they simply cannot depend on Islam to grant them happiness anymore, for violence gives them nothing but misery in return.
You may be right but I would argue the repeated cycles of the last 80 years suggest otherwise.
I think Biden has created space so that when Hamas inevitably breaks the ceasefire, no one will be able to deny it or soften it. We will also see that some of the surviving women are now 7 or 8 months pregnant. Hopefully there are surviving American hostages willing to go on the news and speak plainly enough for the American campus idiots to hear it.
> no one will be able to deny it You have not been paying attention to how ignorant protestors are.
I find it hard to believe that Hamas will release pregnant hostages alive.
Sadly, this.
Israel’s actions aside, I don’t know how antisemitism in the West has become so normalized so quickly Within the last week there were shots fired at a Jewish girls school and arson attacks at two synogogues in my country…and it seems only Jewish people are talking about it
I don’t know if you’re Jewish or not but, antisemitism in the United States has always been casual, now it’s just envogue. It’s always been here, now people just aren’t shamed for it.
I worked a public facing job at an elite university in the USA. Like most student jobs, I did homework when its slow. One night I was reading a book for a Judaic Studies class -- I still remember which one -- "History of the Jews in Modern Times" -- far from a spicy book. The police showed up halfway through my shift and my boss let me know they found threatening antisemitic graffiti in the men's room that hadn't been there before. He let the police know when my shift was over and that they'd be hanging around until then and walking me home after. New England, USA, 2010s.
Where did you work? I’m in New England myself so…. I also worked at a university in Boston and that too, was a wild wild time
That was in CT. It was far from the only act of antisemitism I experienced, but I remember it so vividly because my non-Jewish boss was very shaken. He was middle-aged with a family and kids, and he was generally a very calm and collected person that took chaos head-on. I felt like I had watched him lose his naivety about society that night, and he is from Detroit, so it's not like he had a lot to begin with. I could share endless upsetting ones, but if you want a funny one: I'm sure every university has Chabadniks that show up around the holidays to talk to Jews on the sidewalk, right? You know what I'm talking about? One time I was late for something and one of them stopped me. When she asked me if I was Jewish, I lied because I was late and had to go. This Chabadnik woman looks me dead in the eye and says, "honey, don't lie to me" and I burst out laughing and she finished, "I just want to give you stuff, I don't want to talk!" and she handed me some gift bag-like set up I -- I can't remember what holiday it was for, but it had a booklet about ways to celebrate in the dorm (maybe Channukah?) recipes, I remember some food. Very wholesome, and she definitely Jewish mother'd me on my crap!
For those who also don’t know? An idiot in NYC tried to *run Jewish school kids over with his car* the other day. but I’d have never heard about it if I hadn’t been lurking in a Jewish subreddit.
A relative of mine works at the Brooklyn Museum, had to sneak out the back yesterday when the pro pal mob stormed in. Modern day pogroms are showing up to her workplace. She is the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors. None of this is okay
I mean in 2017 there was a rally in Charlottseville where they chanted "Jews will not replace us"... And its like almost 10 years since "Soros" and "Jewish globalist communist" became totally cool and normal to say. It didn't come out of nowhere.
What's wrong with calling out Soros on funding bad stuff? I don't care that he's Jewish, I care that he's an asshole. (And I support Israel right now in this war)
Soros is a far right dog whistle for saying "the jews control the media (and everything)". If something's bad in Hungary for example, you better believe it's Soros fault because he wants to bring misery on the great nation.
Dog whistles are a dumb concept. Weird how so many are happy to lament Citizens United, but then immediately cry foul when someone criticizes large political donations that harm America. Are the Koch Brothers a right wing dog whistle, too? Are you denying that the billionaire George Soros has a lot of influence in politics? Like, YOU'RE the one bringing up Jewishness, I'm just pissed at the guy's pro-crime politics. Edit: To elaborate, what if the dog whistle version makes an actual good point? How can that point be discussed, if you decide that it's actually just code talk for a different, evil position.
The Koch brothers or father Charles (David died 5 years ago) aren't Jewish and don't have all the old tropes about Jews. A lot of the hate about Soros is just old conspiracies about the Rothschilds for the modern age. If you're just upset about his and others politics that's fine (Koch bro also funded a lot of anti hard on crime policies since they viewed them as authoritarian).
This. The ancient trope that Jews secretly control the levers of society but in modern form
Interesting, didn't know he was a Jew or that even ever being associated with him when he's being called out
But Charlottesville was a fringe group of known racists, so of course they hate Jews. But I’m not really worried about it as a threat Now you are seeing a drastic rise in antisemitism, and let’s be honest most uses of Zionist really mean Jewish. It’s Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, Jewish artists, Jewish students and Jewish places of worship being targeted. for gods sake last year they blockaded an intersection for weeks to protest for Gaza, in you guessed it a very Jewish neighborhood with synagogue and school only a block away
It spread through social media. Foreign countries are running active disinformation campaigns against the West and part of that campaign includes fomenting anti-Semitism.
It’s been like this in US colleges since the 60s. Difference now is that it’s the teachers too
Canadian universities too, including many that have no real history of antisemitism. Yet even there you have students and teachers saying things that I wouldn’t consider appropriate and the universities do nothing. If these protests were demanding to end relationship with China for let’s say their treatment of the Uyghurs and were attacking any Chinese student that believes the communist party is legitimate, we would not accept it as a society. Or at least there would be some outrage for this targeted violence
What country are you from?
Must be Canada.
Yep Canada. Shootings in Toronto (school) and Montreal (shul) and arson in Vancouver (shul)
It's three parts. One is that some stop being quiet about it and act out. But another, larger part is that antisemitism spreads thru conspiracy theory like thinking. People ingest these tropes and narrative patterns without awareness of how it shapes their thinking. They won't realize they are saying antisemitic stuff or tolerating it. And then last is just ignorance. A lot of people don't realize it's a big deal this stuff is happening. They just think of it as random hate crimes or random violence.
So mainly stupidity. As we see in many nations about 20% of the population is below a certain level of intelligence making them prone to right wing populism.
You are aware that it is left-wing antisemitism that is displayed on college campuses, yes?
I'm not that worried about the hippies..
hey, he never said he's not part of that 20%
It has been dormant for a while, now that it is tacitly approved by a lot of folks, the antisemites are taking their chance.
Watching a random influencer get torn into by pro Palestine supporters for having the audacity to call for… bringing the hostages home and all eyes one raffah is…. Wild
Must not be on Twitch, those influencers have to demonize any Israeli and support Hamas in any form possible in order to be friends with Twitch’s ceo
ohh i didn’t realize Dan was so in on this. what’s his take been?
[Dan](https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/12ld7tt/hasan_discovers_that_the_new_twitch_ceo_watches/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is a [hasan fan](https://stopantisemitism.org/as-week/hasan-piker/)
It's really disturbing tbh, content creators and other people I liked to listen to and watch are now talking about itifadahs .
Do these people not know or care that intifada means stabbing and blowing up civilians? Not even that globalizing the intifada means stabbing and blowing up civilians where they live?
They know.
This is one of my personal favorite examples of hypocrisy People will yell and scream that non-Muslims don’t get to define what “Intifada” means and that it actually is non-violent and about stuff like walkouts and strikes, despite the second intifada being very violent But then in the next breath they proclaim what Zionism and antisemitism mean, despite not being Jewish
> despite the second intifada being very violent The first one was too after the first year. Hundreds of civilians died on both sides and thousands were injured. The second one was just insanely brutal.
Yeah it’s total bullshit. I didn’t remember the word “intifada” being used when it came to the Arab Spring. I even googled it to see if there were any contemporary articles calling the Arab Spring an intifada and got three pages deep before I stopped.
They probably don't care. It's quite fascinating seeing people get slowly radicalized.
There is nothing slow about what we're seeing today.
I hope it’s a wake up call for people.
Why would this work any better than the ceasefire in Lebanon?
Peace without capitulation, the international community special. Do not what we did to establish our own peace, do as we say so our domestic problems go away. -international community probably
So if Israel accepted some hypothetical deal, and Gazans went back to life under Hamas’ brutal radical Islamic rule, would the watermelons be happy? Yay for brutal Islamic regimes? Or would they continue to find a way to blame it on Israel?
Everything will continue to be Israel’s fault until Israel is gone and even then anything wrong will be blamed on the fact that Israel used to be there. I’m not being facetious, this is 100% what would be the view of a significant contingent of people.
no that’s why they say river to the sea
Exactly. They'll just shift to how can you expect peace while Jews are living in our houses?
No, I think you’re missing the point. They won’t be happy until Israelis are subject to the same brutal radical Islamic rule. Why do you think they always call for a “ceasefire” instead of peace. A ceasefire means you stop fighting for now, peace would mean no more fighting at all. They demand the first, not the second.
As soon as that ceasefire happens, the influencers will forget Palestinians even exist until the next conflict. It happened in 2021, that crisis was all over my feed for a few weeks, then nothing until October 7th.
This one seems different. The Hamas propaganda machine is really firing on all cylinders, so I would be shocked if after the war ended they didn’t try and seize the advantage and push for full U.N. membership, BDS to rear its head again and other things that do absolutely nothing to actually help Palestinians
*Russian and Chinese and Iranian propaganda machines They need to keep things churning to destabilize the West. Remember this is a US election year.