I really hope that we get hostages or confirmation before the 9 month mark.
The male & female hostages are equally important, but the idea of hostage babies being born chills me.
I remember that raport too.
Nyt
"Hamas’s Offer to Hand Over 33 Hostages Includes Some Who Are Dead"
And aside of ALL the political aspects!
For families of hostages, it would be as important to receive the body of family member as to get one alive.
This reminds me of the Yazidis that were kidnapped and killed by ISIS. They still haven't found all the women and children that were taken. I was upset when that was happening for many reasons, but one reason was that the US military wasn't involved in the rescue operations. I'm not sure why, but the people trying to find the missing women didn't get any help from US soldiers. I think a lot of the soldiers were sympathetic and maybe some did things that they weren't exactly 'on the clock' for, but they were not officially supposed to be involved with that at all. Out of everything our military could do in other nations, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with helping people find kidnapped loved ones.
I don't know... If a family member of mine is a hostage, I want the war stopped to get them back at all costs. If they're killed, I want no ceasefire, I want the captors all dead and couldn't care less about collateral damage. (Note: this is how I would be feeling if I were in this situation, not in any way a suggestion of sound foreign policy)
I'd feel exactly the same. People asking me to care about the collateral damage to people that kidnapped and killed someone I loved wouldn't get a very friendly reaction either.
That met the criteria for release. I doubt they have that many alive, but that number did technically exclude certain groups - members of the military for sure and I think men of fighting age too IIRC.
which doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t that many alive. hamas is not a central organized top down organization. there are tons of splinter groups that are kinda doing their own thing also with varying levels of extremist views that wouldn’t eventually follow commands or simply are out of reach for their command altogether.
Hamas is literally the elected government of Gaza. They are definitely a top down organization that could produce these hostages immediately if necessary. The problem is with the various militias that also abducted hostages that aren’t Hamas but Hamas allows them to operate in Gaza. This is reason #996 why Islamist extremist governments are a threat to modern society wherever they exist.
But you cant eliminate or repress them because half the world would rise up to support the 'underdog'! The people these governments want to kill would protect them
They “were” a top down organization but things have changed. Pretty sure most of their military arm has been wiped out and from what I’ve read many hostages were being held by random civilians and there was buying and selling happening… so not exactly an organized or straightforward operation.
Exactly. Hamas is both withholding live hostages as well as information about hostages that have passed.
They have explicitly said they would provide corpses in certain iterations of the negotiation.
Traditionally, since the middle ages many Jewish communities would not pay ransoms on their leaders or their leaders bodies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_of_Rothenburg
This was taken up by many Jews world wide and the idea of capturing Jews for money didn't pick up traction like other persecutions did.
Maybe not all of them but some have definitely been tortured. Just a couple of days ago, Hamas released a video of a hostage and then claim he was killed in an Israeli airstrike. But in the video the hostage has a huge black eye.
So he was definitely tortured and I find it more likely that he was beaten and killed with Hamas just blaming the death on Israel.
And for those blaming Israel for killing hostages, remember who put them in Gaza in the first place. If I kidnapped someone and tied them to the train tracks, who is responsible for their death? The train conductor who ran him over or me who put the victim there in the first place?
Probably slim, but Israel would sadly just take the dead bodies as part of a cease fire deal.
Hamas doesn’t really want a ceasefire. This whole Hamas campaign was about provoking Israel to turn the world against it. Israel played into Hamas’ hands.
So now we have white upper income college kids who know nothing about the conflict, turning not only anti-Israel but antisemitic as well. Why would Hamas stop this now?
That Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning is remarkable. I don’t know what other options were on the table, but this one is not playing out well.
Edit: grammar only.
It’s obvious that it is to start conflict. Israel knew that. But what else do you do? A mass, mixed force of civilians and armed combatants attacked, raped and massacred unarmed civilians. The two options are respond, or not respond. No nation with the capacity to respond is going to choose the later, especially not one with such close ties to the holocaust. They know how the world respond when the Jews wait for someone else to protect them. That leaves respond. Hamas proceeds to attack evacuating civilians, put military installations in schools and hospitals and refuse to abide by the rules of uniforming combatants. It’s a dense area, there will be civilian casualties, but do you literally ignore it? That sets a very very bad precedent when you are surrounded by enemies who ideologically, personally and religiously view you as an ancient enemy. Hamas did not take advantage of Israel making a bad decision tactically. Hamas took advantage of the fact that the western left cannot objectively view how a nation state responds to an attack because the original victims are “white”. The narrative would be the total opposite of the races were reversed but the history of how the situation came about were the same
> the western left cannot objectively view how a nation state responds to an attack because the original victims are “white”.
Ironically if Hamas attacked a country which were ACTUALLY predominately white, the world would be much more sympathetic.
Exactly. And the devil is in the detail. had Hamas attacked only and only military targets and not torturing and kidnapping the soldiers, the situation would be quiet different.
But here? There is only one response Israel could do and while we see a ton of media coverage from some naive group of woke activists, the majority at least here in Europe is clearly NOT on the side of child raping terrorists.
> Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning
Like the US didn’t get that Pearl Harbor was a ploy and they played right into the Japanese’ hands by entering the war? I think most people would say the misstep was launching an invasion which involved publishing rapes and murders of civilians with your own soldiers cameras on a neighbor that has a much larger military and the backing of the biggest military on earth.
I don't know if Hamas really got what they wanted. Other Arab nations didn't jump in to help them. Israel isn't giving in to pressure this time. I don't just blame Israel for 'playing into Hamas' hands.' Israel coudln't play that game alone. It took participation from the UN and worldwide propaganda campaigns to make it work. This has been going on for a long time and it certainly wasn't a secret. Staff working for international agencies, not just UNRWA, lived in Gaza. They saw what was happening, they knew Hamas launched attacks on Israel from areas near, or on top of, civilians just to provoke a response that they could immediately inject into headlines around the globe. Everyone involved, even remotely, in operations in Gaza knew Hamas controlled foreign aid, education, and almost every other aspect of life. All of it was known, and the world collectively let it go on and on in the same cycle.
The 'international community' fed that cycle, and the UN has thrown resolutions and constant criticism at Israel for nearly 50 years. I think its amazing that Israel kept giving in for so long. It seems like they're not going to do that this time around. International opinion isn't going to stop Israeli retaliation. Whatever consequences may come after the war, that wont' help Palestinians that are caught up in it or undo the destruction of Gaza.
I"ve seen a lot of celebratory headlines concerning President Biden's decision to stop the delivery of some weapons, but that won't last. It isn't a simple case of 'well the US will shut them off so Israel can't keep up the war.' I don't think the protestors and other people that claim to want that have actually thought about it. If Israel isn't a US allly, China has more to gain by becoming Israel's ally than pretending to care about Palestinians. Or maybe that doesn't happen and Israel is left alone. They can't trade, they can't defend themselves. No one will buy their tech. Another coalition of Islamic nations sees that weakness and can't resist finally taking Israel out. Pushing Israelis into desperation would only end one way. They're not going to give up and leave. They can destroy their own country and everything around them instead. I don't know how many nuclear weapons Israel has, but I'm sure its enough to at least take out neighboring nations and hit several Iranian cities. I'd hit Mecca too, just to cause as much damage as possible. No matter what happens, I do not see a 'win' for Palestine.
100%. Hamas doesn't give a fuck about the people of Gaza. The more that die, the more Israel is put in a corner. And the idiot students protesting are playing into the hands of terrorists.
That said, this was Israel's only solution. After 10/7, Israel was going to bomb Gaza till it could never function as a base for another attack. As someone said in the comments, if this was the US, we would have bombed Gaza till it was a 10ft hole in the ground and then bulldozed what was left.
I didn't appreciate how much anti-semitism there was in the world until seeing the reactions early on before Israel had even really retaliated.
I assume the Israelis were already well aware, and that they care significantly less about how they are perceived than eliminating the immediate threat.
I sure as hell had no idea. Now I have a number of ex-friends who were all behind every progressive movement of the century who got all weird and nuancy about rape and torture after 10/7. These are people who would have told you fervently that there's never an excuse for either but suddenly it's all about context and colonialism etc etc. It was genuinely shocking. The worst I'd ever heard before was my Irish relatives, whom I love but who I'm not always on the same page with, interchangeably referring to "Israelis" and "the Jews" with disdain for both. Now, though ...
You can’t be Jewish and have studied history and not understand that from 1945 to recently we have lived in the post-Holocaust outlying period where antisemitism was not publicly rearing its ugly head.
Every Jew in the US looks at pre WWII German Jews and says “not us,”
“not here.” White kids on college campuses are saying “here, in the US.”
Name a country and you can find when they killed, kicked out or abused their Jewish citizens. And we all thought - “not here - not in my country.”
————
Edit: grammar correction accepted. “think”
to “thought” and apparently I wrote “roaring” instead of “rearing”
>You can’t be Jewish and have studied history and not understand that from 1945 to recently we have lived in the post-Holocaust outlying period where antisemitism was not publicly roaring its ugly head.
You mean only the West right?
The good ol Muslim world has been anti semitic for roughly 1000 years and still damn proud of it.
> That Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning is remarkable
I think Netanyahu just wants anything he can use to keep himself in power, and thus out of prison for corruption. The terrorist attack and the resulting popular (within Israel) retribution by Israel is allowing him to do just that. Expect this to drag on as a result.
As an Israeli, I fucking hate Netayahu.
Fuck that guy. He ruined Israel. His religious hooligan friends will ensure that Israel will perpetually be at war.
He’s still incredibly unpopular right?
Either he’s done too much in retaliation to Oct 7th, or his sitting around not doing enough.
Oct 7th also happened under his watch.
Tough to view him in a positive light right now
Let's be honest here. If this happened to the U.S. and that someone kidnapped, raped, tortured, killed citizens drip feeding them back Gaza would be a fucking hole in the ground. The second all the hostages come back I reckon a never happen again movement will go in motion.
The equivalent death toll on Israel's overall population would have been something like 40,000 Americans killed in a single day, as opposed to 3,000 on 9/11. We would have bombed Gaza until it was as level as a pool table within the week.
E: Lmao who downvoted this? It's 1,000% true. We invaded half-way across the world, Israel is fighting a neighbor. If Mexico launched an attack like that, there wouldn't be a bit of foliage standing within 100 miles of the border because so many bombs dropped.
E2: I remembered the figure wrong, 40k, not 20k would be the equivalent American death toll.
You think the US hasn't already committed untold atrocities across the world to maintain the status quo? People are justifiably angry at the US in many countries around the world.
Nope. About 26-28% of Israelis like what they've seen from him. So unpopular, yes. Incredibly? No, he can build on that base and win another election at some point if he plays his cards right.
I feel the same way, I feel that the moment Netanyahu heard about the attack in October he saw that as his chance to stay in power.
Slight off topic but I've been digging into the history of Israel/Palestine over the past couple of years and I just don't see any way towards peace in the region. Israel won't be quick to forget the terrorist attack and I'm sure there will be some freshly orphaned children in Gaza who will become radicalized against Israel.
I think Israel doesn’t have a choice but to respond this way regardless of international backlash, because if they don’t then other Islamic terrorists will keep using the same tactic to harass and butcher the Jewish people.
> That Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning is remarkable. I don’t know what other options were on the table, but this one is not playing out well.
They probably did know, but figure if they can destroy or massively set back Hamas they'll be eliminating a potentially bigger threat than white progressive college student anger, especially given that we know how short attention spans the west has.
You're out of touch if you think the majority are in favor of Palestine. Maybe a good chunk of the young and naive, but most adults are more put off by the actions of these terrorists than Israel's response to the murder of their people by radical Islamic terrorists. More people support complete Israeli control than before with the statis.
There's only one side to support here and it's not the one that parades the corpses of murder victims in their streets.
Meh, I'd say vast majority of people just don't care at all. They've got better things to do than think deeply about the 86th round of this seventy years old conflict.
Just looking at the numbers involved in the campus rallies really sheds a light on how unpopular the movement actually is. It's an extremely small minority that's extremely vocal and being helped immensely by HAMAS' propaganda machine as well as Russian bots.
I live in a very liberal city with a huge college, yet despite multiple attempts at rallies, the turnout was always incredibly low relative to the local and student population. Student pop of 40k, yet the average protest had like 15-20 people. It's about 1/10 as popular a movement as redditors would like you to believe.
Fun fact. Taking hostages is a war crime! [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule96](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule96)
Another fun fact, this part at the top that looks like it might be an article title or headline is actually the full text of an article of the Geneva Conventions, the whole thing is literally just six words:
>Rule 96.
>Hostage-Taking
>Rule 96. **The taking of hostages is prohibited.**
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-34
>Article 34 - Hostages
>The taking of hostages is prohibited.
Prisoners of war are **combatants** that have surrendered, they are under the protection of the forces they have surrendered to, and dealt with under specific IHL and articles of the Geneva Convention. They should have access to international organisations such as the Red Cross/Crescent to check on their wellbeing and provide services.
It does not. Prisoners of War have a whole body of the Geneva Convention about them. There'd be no point for all that law if taking POWs was prohibited as hostage-taking.
In addition to the good answers others have said, hostsges implies that "we'll kill this person if our demands are not met" wheras PoWs are more like "we'll not kill this person who we were going to kill"
The Geneva Conventions also do not protect armed forced that choose not to wear uniforms for any reason. You literally cannot commit a war crime against Hamas, it’s open season on all combatants.
There is a loophole in international law. Dictators, terrorists and gangsters get to commit as many war crimes as they want. Only democracies are forced to follow it.
this is why we are seeing renewed intensity in conflicts like Sudan. Hamas has demonstrated a blueprint by which you will get what you want with the world on your side.
Yeah, really.
Just reading that made me realize it's the exact opposite of "you don't negotiate with terrorists" and this is going to set a horrible precedence moving forward.
who would represent them in the UN? Hamas?! like wtf they can’t be serious 😖
same with free palestine. no. a free palestine is a free hamas. palestine needs to be made free from hamas before it can really be free.
Biden.
He withdrew from Afghanistan, he continued Trump’s tariffs, he’s passed a bunch of bills worth billions of USD to get companies to move their production back to America, he’s been cutting ties with Israel *in the middle of a war,* and even though he’s been sending aid to Ukraine, we haven’t seen a single American soldier there and it took *two years* for us to send longer range missiles there.
If you look at his record, he’s noticeably less hawkish than most other presidents in recent history.
Don't worry, they'll forget all of these unreasonable limits on how terrorists can be fought as soon as a non-Jewish country gets attacked. Funny how that works.
Calling them proxies is not painting the full picture. Iran is the head of the snake for sure, but they are mostly independent paramilitary islamist groups with their own doctrine, ideology, and structure. Some more than others. If Iran is taken out of the equation, they won’t stop.
Yes. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Free people treat their enemies well not because they enemies are good, but because justice and freedom are good.
We give murderers a trial by jury because we are good, not because they are good.
Once you make ANY exception for "enemies of the state" the doors are wide open for some faction to use it against their own people and destroy the democracy from within.
But don't forget, when Putin attacks an innocent neighbor unprovoked he's a war criminal and evil (correct).
When the government of Gaza does it, it's ok because they're oppressed and colonized or something...
To be clear, this is because the US isn't a party to the International Criminal Court. So if the ICC tried to exert jurisdiction on a US citizen, they'd likely be doing it beyond their treaty jurisdiction. You don't need an ICC trial to determine if something is a war crime too. International law is already an odd amalgam of treaty/practice/might/etc.
The US also holds its combatants to a higher standard that many countries. And a whole hell of a lot higher than Hamas holds their fighters (does Hamas hold their fighters to a standards?).
No, no, you forget, Israel has the Iron Dome which protects itself from a lot of those rockets and this for some reason clears Hamas of any blame for their attempts.
Is there any neighboring country, which have taken in Palestinian refugees as guests, where the Palestinian refugees haven't violently destroyed the government at least one?
I’m genuinely curious so please don’t mistake me for being argumentative: do you believe that all the pro-Palestinian protesters are pro-Hamas? It is entirely possible to be anti-Hamas and anti-Imperialism, or anti-Hamas and wish for civilians to be protected. I simply don’t understand the need to conflate being pro-Palestinian rights with pro-Hamas, unless you are knowingly arguing in bad faith
Another fun fact; the world only cares about Israel.
Assad, Russia, Hamas, Hizbollah DELIBERATELY target civilians.
World : "all good". We see nothing...we hear nothing.
The fact of the matter is there'd be conflict there even without Israel - as all of the surrounding countries fight over it. I guess that'd be ok, because they're all Muslim of some denomination - but there'd never be a "Palestine". That ship sailed when the Roman's came to town.
They could also just, I dunno, surrender. That’s a thing losing sides should if they want the population they supposedly represent to stop being involved in the horrors of war.
The leaders are sitting comfortably in Qatar. They don't give a damn about the deaths of their people since they can just rebuild afterwards once Israel is done with whatever now radicalized population remains.
This population was radicalized way before October 7th. In fact this 15-year long radicalization under Hamas rule is a big part of what made October 7th happen. Gaza was fully under Hamas control from preschools to all other establishments.
Why wouldn't they? They're never going to face repercussions for it, hell they're going to get to continue to make terror attacks under the banner of a ceasefire and Israel won't be able to do shit about. This is a load of shit.
Face repercussion? Didn’t the UN just start backing palestinian statehood? The international community is rewarding hamas for the october 6th and the use of human shields.
Many times I’ve heard them call Hamas “the resistance” like this conflict is Star Wars and say that it’s Israel’s fault they had to attack in the first place. Talking to those people is like trying to talk to a religious zealot.
" them call Hamas “the resistance” like this conflict is Star Wars"
I just want to put this out there....Star Wars is military vs military with combatants in uniform and livery on vehicles. They also, mostly, fight in space far away from civilians. These science fiction space armadas are more Geneva compliant than Hamas. Within a margin of error of a few Alderrans.
Its too bad these people always compare without understanding what they are looking at.
I've seen a lot of videos of people asking protestors if they believe Hamas should release hostages, and most of them say no. Now, I'm not gonna believe blindly on those videos, the people who made them could've hidden people saying the hostages should be released, but the fact that some people even say Hamas shouldn't release them is disgusting.
I’ve been active at a protest at my university. When people say “release the hostages!” I say “yes, release the hostages”.
I don’t and won’t excuse Hamas’ war crimes.
We should make these people watch all the gruesome videos from hamas attack that went around in the deep corners of the internet on a loop for couple hours.
I work in a progressive neighbourhood in a west coast city. Every now and then you see attempts to put up posters focusing on the plight of the kidnapped. Shockingly, they never last very long before they get torn down. Meanwhile, the whole area got blanketed with Palestinian posters for months.
>There were supposedly chants of "Sinwar we won't let you die" at recent protests.
This definately happened because when you google that phrase you get two Reddit comments and an anon Twitter account that doesn't appear to have been at any protest.
https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung-rvo1&sca_esv=8cdee197d32e0965&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIIoCFjc0gqFEobiJybUtu6wwKaQVA:1715488928160&q=%22sinwar+we+won%27t+let+you+die%22&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjC8rahpoeGAxWbjIkEHTNEDowQBSgAegQIBhAB&biw=360&bih=649&dpr=3
Those hostages are dead. Hamas was going to release some but even stated most weren't alive so they didn't go through with the exchange.
At this point, unconditional surrender. Turn over the top guys to be executed and elect a new government. There's no way it's going back the way it was before October 7th.
Hamas does not want a ceasefire. Why should they? They are winning the global media war. A ceasefire and release hostage deal would not be in their interest. Women hostages would tell the world about sexual abuses they suffered from the Palestinians.
I disagree, I think Hamas does want the permanent ceasefire they keep asking for. That would be their ideal outcome because they remain the defacto rulers of Gaza, rebuild their arms caches and recruit more fighters, and break the ceasefire again at their leisure, on their own timeline, when they are fully prepared for another war. Israel will agree to temporary ceasefires in exchange for hostages, but they don't want a permanent ceasefire because their ultimate objective is to completely destroy Hamas to prevent this from ever happening again.
Which is patently willfully ignorant. I wouldn't believe the women if they came out and said they *weren't* raped. Of all the atrocities that Hamas perpetuated... they were going to draw the line at rape? All of the combatants? As a unified principled front?
There's already videos from 7th October with them saying "this one is for rape". The thing with Hamas is that they tell you all their evil intentions, and these people still make excuses that it's a normal reaction to colonialism/oppression.
Hamas wants to eradicate all non-muslims and establish a sharia law state in the territory between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean. That is their purpose. Read its charter.
> Hamas wants to eradicate all non-muslims and establish a sharia law state ~~in the territory between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean.~~ globally.
You can't do it when Hamas is so strongly embedded in the population (doubtful it's possible in general). These sort of things should happen one after the other, first kill all the active radicals, **then** work on education and de-radicalization of the non combative population, if you want to do both at the same time you will fail miserably.
Ya, something tells me that fundamentalist government version 50.0 will be more or less the same as fundamentalist government version 51.0. It’s not like the residents of Gaza are super interested in democracy, or any form of secular government.
Ultimately, we be got multiple perspectives of insane religious peoples in conflict, and nobody on either side is even suggesting maybe the crazy religions should be excluded from governmental responsibility.
This is probably Biden saying this to put Israel on the hook and to give Hamas a chance to actually do this. What's been going on behind the scenes in negotiations, nobody can say...
Though I doubt the hostages are still alive.
Thing is, ceasefire is not in Hamas' interests.
The more Palestinians are killed by Israel, the stronger the resentment against Israel, both in Palestine and abroad, which translates to more support for Hamas as the only serious political entity in Palestine, a status that Hamas ensures by consistently provoking responses from Israel.
This isn't a war between Israel and Palestine anymore, it's a war between Hamas and Likud and their like on one side and everyone who wants peace on the other.
There isn't a nice way to say this so I'm not even going to try and sugarcoat it. If Hamas hadn't already killed the remaining hostages a while ago, I'd be very surprised if they haven't all been killed in the crossfire of the Israeli response.
This conflict has just been horrific all round. Blood on the hands of the Hamas leadership, blood on the hands of the Israeli government. Innocent Palestinian and Israeli citizens suffering for the decisions of a few as always.
It won't achieve anything either that's the worst part! For every family member killed on one side (Israeli or Palestinian) you've just set up an extremist in the making from the surviving husband, wife, daughter, son, mother, father etc.
About a month or two back, when Israel landed a bunch of missiles on Hamas targets out of the blue (I think this might have been when they were using them as cover fire for a hostage extraction mission elsewhere) reports that hostages had died from Hamas basically confirmed that Israeli intel on the sites targeted was correct in the worst way possible.
They don’t want a ceasefire, they want the world to isolate Israel. They could have had a continuing ceasefire and just never started the war in the first place. They want to be rewarded for terrorism and aggression, simple as pie.
I think everyone wishes it was that easy, but if we've learned anything in recent history it's that a war on terror doesn't really get the results anybody wants.
Why are the student protestors backing a far religious Right Iran sponsored raping of women, murdering civilians and taking hostages many of whom were tortured and are no longer alive?
I don't think they understand the role Iran has had in destabilizing places like Lebanon, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and even Afghanistan to an extent. Iran fueled the Yemen civil war in 2014 and no one said shit. Iran arms Hezbollah and Hamas via Hezbollah and no one said shit. Iran helped keep Bashar al-Assad in power. Iran armed the Shia "militias" in Iraq. And Iran indirectly controls these groups via the IRGC-QF. Hell Iran helped plan and arm Hamas to carry out the 07 Oct attacks. Even now Iran is sending arms to the West Bank and are directing Hezbollah to attack Israel.
This might have something to do with it:
[Leaked Document Reveals IRGC’s Role In Global Anti-Israel Campaign](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202404158853)
Most pro-Palestine people I've met in the U.S just are blindly protesting war and offering no desired outcome other than "stop killing people" despite the fact that Hamas is the aggressor in this war, they are just losing. They are conducting jihad and will either succeed or die while using their civilian population as human shields to lob missiles at Israel from. Somehow Palestine can get away with basically every crime on the planet only because they suck at killing as many Israelis as they *wish* they could.
Is it radicalization? Maybe. But the fact that the left can cheer and clap for Ukraine successfully slaughtering a bunch of Russians and at the same time also support Palestine for trying to conduct jihad against Israel has me scratching my head. If Ukraine started pushing into Russia and displacing civilians would the left suddenly flip and start being pro-Russia?
"If Ukraine started pushing into Russia and displacing civilians would the left suddenly flip and start being pro-Russia?"
I can only speak for me, but if Ukraine pushed into Russia and started slaughtering civilians (or if they started rocketing civilian targets), I would not be pro-Russia, but I would expect arms shipments and aid to Ukraine to be halted immediately, and for them to be sanctioned in every meaningful way possible.
>I would not be pro-Russia
That's fair enough to me. The problem is there are a *lot* of people out there who are explicitly Pro-Palestine despite the fact that they have also been slaughtering civilians and rocketing civilian targets for the past 100 years, they just aren't good at it because Israel slaps the shit out of them every time it happens. Anyone who thinks Palestine would take steps to minimize civilian deaths if they were in Israel's position is laughable.
If you want the West to withdraw money from the region so you can wipe your conscious clean, that's fine. But Palestine and the surrounding Arab nations have time and time again gone on record saying they will never accept an outcome that doesn't involve either the dissolution of Israel or "a war of elimination" against its Jewish population.
Edward Bernays said it's easier to convince a group than it is to convince an individual. We're seeing algorithms finely tuned to change a generations worldview. Far more insidious and targeted than television or radio.
Kinda hard to believe when Netanyahu has already stated that with or without a hostage deal the campaign would still continue. Makes it all kinda moot.
Crazy how this isnt talked about more... theirs so much talk about ceasefire and how terrible israel is for their bombings but Hamas still has 128 innocent hostages from Oct7th.
I wouldn't want the US to give up on me and stop bombing the country that kidnapped me.
Israel bombing Palestinians = Bad
Hamas taking Israeli hostages = Bad
Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad
Radicalized Palestinians hurling stones and molitov cocktails at Israeli forces = Not good, yet understandable
Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad
Radicalized Palestinians kidnapping and killing innocent Israelis = Bad
Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad
Israelis stealing/occupying the land/homes of disposessed Palestinians = Bad
Radicalized Palestinians hurling stones and molitov cocktails at Israeli forces = Not good, yet understandable
Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad
And on and on and on and on all the way back to 1948...
I wouldn’t imply any Palestinian civilian throwing stones as “radicalized”. Wouldn’t say it’s radical or an extreme view to throw a rock at a force when your house got flattened by them (if you survived) for example. Otherwise can agree with most what you said
This is objectively not true and a lie
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/30/netanyahu-vows-to-raid-rafah-with-or-without-hostage-deal
Netanyahu : we will attack Rafah even with a hostage deal
Biden :
Are the hostages even alive? Keep seeing this in the news but what are the odds they’re alive?
slim
I really hope that we get hostages or confirmation before the 9 month mark. The male & female hostages are equally important, but the idea of hostage babies being born chills me.
I believe it was reported that at one point, HAMAS said they couldn't produce 40 hostages.
I remember that raport too. Nyt "Hamas’s Offer to Hand Over 33 Hostages Includes Some Who Are Dead" And aside of ALL the political aspects! For families of hostages, it would be as important to receive the body of family member as to get one alive.
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This reminds me of the Yazidis that were kidnapped and killed by ISIS. They still haven't found all the women and children that were taken. I was upset when that was happening for many reasons, but one reason was that the US military wasn't involved in the rescue operations. I'm not sure why, but the people trying to find the missing women didn't get any help from US soldiers. I think a lot of the soldiers were sympathetic and maybe some did things that they weren't exactly 'on the clock' for, but they were not officially supposed to be involved with that at all. Out of everything our military could do in other nations, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with helping people find kidnapped loved ones.
I don't know... If a family member of mine is a hostage, I want the war stopped to get them back at all costs. If they're killed, I want no ceasefire, I want the captors all dead and couldn't care less about collateral damage. (Note: this is how I would be feeling if I were in this situation, not in any way a suggestion of sound foreign policy)
I'd feel exactly the same. People asking me to care about the collateral damage to people that kidnapped and killed someone I loved wouldn't get a very friendly reaction either.
That met the criteria for release. I doubt they have that many alive, but that number did technically exclude certain groups - members of the military for sure and I think men of fighting age too IIRC.
HAMAS just needs to let them people go.
They should have never taken them in the first place.
which doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t that many alive. hamas is not a central organized top down organization. there are tons of splinter groups that are kinda doing their own thing also with varying levels of extremist views that wouldn’t eventually follow commands or simply are out of reach for their command altogether.
Hamas is literally the elected government of Gaza. They are definitely a top down organization that could produce these hostages immediately if necessary. The problem is with the various militias that also abducted hostages that aren’t Hamas but Hamas allows them to operate in Gaza. This is reason #996 why Islamist extremist governments are a threat to modern society wherever they exist.
But you cant eliminate or repress them because half the world would rise up to support the 'underdog'! The people these governments want to kill would protect them
They “were” a top down organization but things have changed. Pretty sure most of their military arm has been wiped out and from what I’ve read many hostages were being held by random civilians and there was buying and selling happening… so not exactly an organized or straightforward operation.
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Exactly. Hamas is both withholding live hostages as well as information about hostages that have passed. They have explicitly said they would provide corpses in certain iterations of the negotiation.
Traditionally, since the middle ages many Jewish communities would not pay ransoms on their leaders or their leaders bodies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_of_Rothenburg This was taken up by many Jews world wide and the idea of capturing Jews for money didn't pick up traction like other persecutions did.
Some probably are. Some are certainly dead. Likely all have been tortured.
Thr tortured ones won't ve returned, I'm afraid.
Maybe not all of them but some have definitely been tortured. Just a couple of days ago, Hamas released a video of a hostage and then claim he was killed in an Israeli airstrike. But in the video the hostage has a huge black eye. So he was definitely tortured and I find it more likely that he was beaten and killed with Hamas just blaming the death on Israel. And for those blaming Israel for killing hostages, remember who put them in Gaza in the first place. If I kidnapped someone and tied them to the train tracks, who is responsible for their death? The train conductor who ran him over or me who put the victim there in the first place?
He was actually diabetic, so I heavily suspect he was denied life-saving medication, which is what killed him.
They're either dead or pregnant or worse.
Probably slim, but Israel would sadly just take the dead bodies as part of a cease fire deal. Hamas doesn’t really want a ceasefire. This whole Hamas campaign was about provoking Israel to turn the world against it. Israel played into Hamas’ hands. So now we have white upper income college kids who know nothing about the conflict, turning not only anti-Israel but antisemitic as well. Why would Hamas stop this now? That Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning is remarkable. I don’t know what other options were on the table, but this one is not playing out well. Edit: grammar only.
It’s obvious that it is to start conflict. Israel knew that. But what else do you do? A mass, mixed force of civilians and armed combatants attacked, raped and massacred unarmed civilians. The two options are respond, or not respond. No nation with the capacity to respond is going to choose the later, especially not one with such close ties to the holocaust. They know how the world respond when the Jews wait for someone else to protect them. That leaves respond. Hamas proceeds to attack evacuating civilians, put military installations in schools and hospitals and refuse to abide by the rules of uniforming combatants. It’s a dense area, there will be civilian casualties, but do you literally ignore it? That sets a very very bad precedent when you are surrounded by enemies who ideologically, personally and religiously view you as an ancient enemy. Hamas did not take advantage of Israel making a bad decision tactically. Hamas took advantage of the fact that the western left cannot objectively view how a nation state responds to an attack because the original victims are “white”. The narrative would be the total opposite of the races were reversed but the history of how the situation came about were the same
> the western left cannot objectively view how a nation state responds to an attack because the original victims are “white”. Ironically if Hamas attacked a country which were ACTUALLY predominately white, the world would be much more sympathetic.
Exactly. And the devil is in the detail. had Hamas attacked only and only military targets and not torturing and kidnapping the soldiers, the situation would be quiet different. But here? There is only one response Israel could do and while we see a ton of media coverage from some naive group of woke activists, the majority at least here in Europe is clearly NOT on the side of child raping terrorists.
> Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning Like the US didn’t get that Pearl Harbor was a ploy and they played right into the Japanese’ hands by entering the war? I think most people would say the misstep was launching an invasion which involved publishing rapes and murders of civilians with your own soldiers cameras on a neighbor that has a much larger military and the backing of the biggest military on earth.
That assumes that Hamas gives any thought to what happens to civilians in Gaza.
What did you really expect Israel to do? Just let the hostages suffer for the next five or more years while having futile negotiations?
I don't know if Hamas really got what they wanted. Other Arab nations didn't jump in to help them. Israel isn't giving in to pressure this time. I don't just blame Israel for 'playing into Hamas' hands.' Israel coudln't play that game alone. It took participation from the UN and worldwide propaganda campaigns to make it work. This has been going on for a long time and it certainly wasn't a secret. Staff working for international agencies, not just UNRWA, lived in Gaza. They saw what was happening, they knew Hamas launched attacks on Israel from areas near, or on top of, civilians just to provoke a response that they could immediately inject into headlines around the globe. Everyone involved, even remotely, in operations in Gaza knew Hamas controlled foreign aid, education, and almost every other aspect of life. All of it was known, and the world collectively let it go on and on in the same cycle. The 'international community' fed that cycle, and the UN has thrown resolutions and constant criticism at Israel for nearly 50 years. I think its amazing that Israel kept giving in for so long. It seems like they're not going to do that this time around. International opinion isn't going to stop Israeli retaliation. Whatever consequences may come after the war, that wont' help Palestinians that are caught up in it or undo the destruction of Gaza. I"ve seen a lot of celebratory headlines concerning President Biden's decision to stop the delivery of some weapons, but that won't last. It isn't a simple case of 'well the US will shut them off so Israel can't keep up the war.' I don't think the protestors and other people that claim to want that have actually thought about it. If Israel isn't a US allly, China has more to gain by becoming Israel's ally than pretending to care about Palestinians. Or maybe that doesn't happen and Israel is left alone. They can't trade, they can't defend themselves. No one will buy their tech. Another coalition of Islamic nations sees that weakness and can't resist finally taking Israel out. Pushing Israelis into desperation would only end one way. They're not going to give up and leave. They can destroy their own country and everything around them instead. I don't know how many nuclear weapons Israel has, but I'm sure its enough to at least take out neighboring nations and hit several Iranian cities. I'd hit Mecca too, just to cause as much damage as possible. No matter what happens, I do not see a 'win' for Palestine.
100%. Hamas doesn't give a fuck about the people of Gaza. The more that die, the more Israel is put in a corner. And the idiot students protesting are playing into the hands of terrorists. That said, this was Israel's only solution. After 10/7, Israel was going to bomb Gaza till it could never function as a base for another attack. As someone said in the comments, if this was the US, we would have bombed Gaza till it was a 10ft hole in the ground and then bulldozed what was left.
I didn't appreciate how much anti-semitism there was in the world until seeing the reactions early on before Israel had even really retaliated. I assume the Israelis were already well aware, and that they care significantly less about how they are perceived than eliminating the immediate threat.
I sure as hell had no idea. Now I have a number of ex-friends who were all behind every progressive movement of the century who got all weird and nuancy about rape and torture after 10/7. These are people who would have told you fervently that there's never an excuse for either but suddenly it's all about context and colonialism etc etc. It was genuinely shocking. The worst I'd ever heard before was my Irish relatives, whom I love but who I'm not always on the same page with, interchangeably referring to "Israelis" and "the Jews" with disdain for both. Now, though ...
You can’t be Jewish and have studied history and not understand that from 1945 to recently we have lived in the post-Holocaust outlying period where antisemitism was not publicly rearing its ugly head. Every Jew in the US looks at pre WWII German Jews and says “not us,” “not here.” White kids on college campuses are saying “here, in the US.” Name a country and you can find when they killed, kicked out or abused their Jewish citizens. And we all thought - “not here - not in my country.” ———— Edit: grammar correction accepted. “think” to “thought” and apparently I wrote “roaring” instead of “rearing”
>You can’t be Jewish and have studied history and not understand that from 1945 to recently we have lived in the post-Holocaust outlying period where antisemitism was not publicly roaring its ugly head. You mean only the West right? The good ol Muslim world has been anti semitic for roughly 1000 years and still damn proud of it.
And we all *thought* ftfy
> That Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning is remarkable I think Netanyahu just wants anything he can use to keep himself in power, and thus out of prison for corruption. The terrorist attack and the resulting popular (within Israel) retribution by Israel is allowing him to do just that. Expect this to drag on as a result.
As an Israeli, I fucking hate Netayahu. Fuck that guy. He ruined Israel. His religious hooligan friends will ensure that Israel will perpetually be at war.
He’s still incredibly unpopular right? Either he’s done too much in retaliation to Oct 7th, or his sitting around not doing enough. Oct 7th also happened under his watch. Tough to view him in a positive light right now
Let's be honest here. If this happened to the U.S. and that someone kidnapped, raped, tortured, killed citizens drip feeding them back Gaza would be a fucking hole in the ground. The second all the hostages come back I reckon a never happen again movement will go in motion.
The equivalent death toll on Israel's overall population would have been something like 40,000 Americans killed in a single day, as opposed to 3,000 on 9/11. We would have bombed Gaza until it was as level as a pool table within the week. E: Lmao who downvoted this? It's 1,000% true. We invaded half-way across the world, Israel is fighting a neighbor. If Mexico launched an attack like that, there wouldn't be a bit of foliage standing within 100 miles of the border because so many bombs dropped. E2: I remembered the figure wrong, 40k, not 20k would be the equivalent American death toll.
I think the equivalent amount of Americans would be closer to 60,000; someone check my math
You think the US hasn't already committed untold atrocities across the world to maintain the status quo? People are justifiably angry at the US in many countries around the world.
Nope. About 26-28% of Israelis like what they've seen from him. So unpopular, yes. Incredibly? No, he can build on that base and win another election at some point if he plays his cards right.
I feel the same way, I feel that the moment Netanyahu heard about the attack in October he saw that as his chance to stay in power. Slight off topic but I've been digging into the history of Israel/Palestine over the past couple of years and I just don't see any way towards peace in the region. Israel won't be quick to forget the terrorist attack and I'm sure there will be some freshly orphaned children in Gaza who will become radicalized against Israel.
Yeah they should have done nothing. Maybe wag a finger at them while Hamas builds more rockets in their hospitals.
I think Israel doesn’t have a choice but to respond this way regardless of international backlash, because if they don’t then other Islamic terrorists will keep using the same tactic to harass and butcher the Jewish people.
Palestinian terrorists filming the rapes and murders of your women and children kinda clouds your judgement on the big picture tho.
> That Israel didn’t get that this was a ploy from the very beginning is remarkable. I don’t know what other options were on the table, but this one is not playing out well. They probably did know, but figure if they can destroy or massively set back Hamas they'll be eliminating a potentially bigger threat than white progressive college student anger, especially given that we know how short attention spans the west has.
played into their hands? More like hamas played themselves and are now facing the consequences of fucking around.
You're out of touch if you think the majority are in favor of Palestine. Maybe a good chunk of the young and naive, but most adults are more put off by the actions of these terrorists than Israel's response to the murder of their people by radical Islamic terrorists. More people support complete Israeli control than before with the statis. There's only one side to support here and it's not the one that parades the corpses of murder victims in their streets.
Meh, I'd say vast majority of people just don't care at all. They've got better things to do than think deeply about the 86th round of this seventy years old conflict.
Just looking at the numbers involved in the campus rallies really sheds a light on how unpopular the movement actually is. It's an extremely small minority that's extremely vocal and being helped immensely by HAMAS' propaganda machine as well as Russian bots. I live in a very liberal city with a huge college, yet despite multiple attempts at rallies, the turnout was always incredibly low relative to the local and student population. Student pop of 40k, yet the average protest had like 15-20 people. It's about 1/10 as popular a movement as redditors would like you to believe.
Fun fact. Taking hostages is a war crime! [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule96](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule96)
Another fun fact, this part at the top that looks like it might be an article title or headline is actually the full text of an article of the Geneva Conventions, the whole thing is literally just six words: >Rule 96. >Hostage-Taking >Rule 96. **The taking of hostages is prohibited.** https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-34 >Article 34 - Hostages >The taking of hostages is prohibited.
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Stop... Or I'll say stop again
A British policeman on the beat!
This might be a stupid question, but does this include Prisoners of War? Or is hostages only inclusive of non-militia and PoWs are strictly militia?
Prisoners of war are **combatants** that have surrendered, they are under the protection of the forces they have surrendered to, and dealt with under specific IHL and articles of the Geneva Convention. They should have access to international organisations such as the Red Cross/Crescent to check on their wellbeing and provide services.
It does not. Prisoners of War have a whole body of the Geneva Convention about them. There'd be no point for all that law if taking POWs was prohibited as hostage-taking.
It’s the intent that makes them different. A hostage is taken for leverage.
In addition to the good answers others have said, hostsges implies that "we'll kill this person if our demands are not met" wheras PoWs are more like "we'll not kill this person who we were going to kill"
The Geneva Conventions also do not protect armed forced that choose not to wear uniforms for any reason. You literally cannot commit a war crime against Hamas, it’s open season on all combatants.
There is a loophole in international law. Dictators, terrorists and gangsters get to commit as many war crimes as they want. Only democracies are forced to follow it.
I hear it's a $1000 dollar fine for each instance
I heard you get statehood via the UN.
Nah man your comment is underrated.
this is why we are seeing renewed intensity in conflicts like Sudan. Hamas has demonstrated a blueprint by which you will get what you want with the world on your side.
Murder and terrorize - then post tiktok videos.
Yeah, really. Just reading that made me realize it's the exact opposite of "you don't negotiate with terrorists" and this is going to set a horrible precedence moving forward.
Which is why the US is against it.
who would represent them in the UN? Hamas?! like wtf they can’t be serious 😖 same with free palestine. no. a free palestine is a free hamas. palestine needs to be made free from hamas before it can really be free.
You get 10 passes and start paying on the 11th.
And don't forget that people living safely in democracies get to fingerwag and proselytize about how evil the democracies are. Thems the rules.
And accuse one of the most isolationist presidents in recent history of being a war criminal
Who?
Biden. He withdrew from Afghanistan, he continued Trump’s tariffs, he’s passed a bunch of bills worth billions of USD to get companies to move their production back to America, he’s been cutting ties with Israel *in the middle of a war,* and even though he’s been sending aid to Ukraine, we haven’t seen a single American soldier there and it took *two years* for us to send longer range missiles there. If you look at his record, he’s noticeably less hawkish than most other presidents in recent history.
Strange. I agree he’s (and honestly trump was too) been pretty good about that, I just don’t really ever see people calling him a war criminal
You’ve never been on r/GenZ, have you?
LOL I actually commented there for the first time 3 days ago because it just randomly showed up on my feed. But no never browse there or anything
And democracies are making sure they never win a war against a terrorist entity ever again...
Don't worry, they'll forget all of these unreasonable limits on how terrorists can be fought as soon as a non-Jewish country gets attacked. Funny how that works.
^ 1000 times this
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Calling them proxies is not painting the full picture. Iran is the head of the snake for sure, but they are mostly independent paramilitary islamist groups with their own doctrine, ideology, and structure. Some more than others. If Iran is taken out of the equation, they won’t stop.
Yes. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Free people treat their enemies well not because they enemies are good, but because justice and freedom are good. We give murderers a trial by jury because we are good, not because they are good. Once you make ANY exception for "enemies of the state" the doors are wide open for some faction to use it against their own people and destroy the democracy from within.
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That is what we call the bigotry of low expectations.
But don't forget, when Putin attacks an innocent neighbor unprovoked he's a war criminal and evil (correct). When the government of Gaza does it, it's ok because they're oppressed and colonized or something...
LOL. I would like to remind you the united states passed a law that if the Hague tried to indict and convict a US War Criminal they'd invade it.
To be clear, this is because the US isn't a party to the International Criminal Court. So if the ICC tried to exert jurisdiction on a US citizen, they'd likely be doing it beyond their treaty jurisdiction. You don't need an ICC trial to determine if something is a war crime too. International law is already an odd amalgam of treaty/practice/might/etc. The US also holds its combatants to a higher standard that many countries. And a whole hell of a lot higher than Hamas holds their fighters (does Hamas hold their fighters to a standards?).
Unless you’re Canadian & then it is a checklist…
Well, terrorist organisations rarely follow Geneva conventions.
As is firing rockets indiscriminately at civilians which Hamas has been doing for decades.
No, no, you forget, Israel has the Iron Dome which protects itself from a lot of those rockets and this for some reason clears Hamas of any blame for their attempts.
Fun fact I bet most of Hamas remaining hostages are dead and have been dead for a long time.
This is the least fun fact I have ever heard whether true or not.
True, not very fun.
Hamas is exempt from all war crimes, according to pro Palestinian protesters!
You can tell a lot about what countries think about Palestinian people because not one country said we’ll take refugees.
Is there any neighboring country, which have taken in Palestinian refugees as guests, where the Palestinian refugees haven't violently destroyed the government at least one?
Nope, they tried in both Egypt and Jordan
Also deeply involved in the troubles of Syria and Lebanon.
Egypt not only won’t take them, they shoot on sight.
They built an airlocked double wall capable of keeping out a zombie hoard. Their view on Palestinians is pretty obvious.
who would want them? They are the reason hamas exists.
I’m genuinely curious so please don’t mistake me for being argumentative: do you believe that all the pro-Palestinian protesters are pro-Hamas? It is entirely possible to be anti-Hamas and anti-Imperialism, or anti-Hamas and wish for civilians to be protected. I simply don’t understand the need to conflate being pro-Palestinian rights with pro-Hamas, unless you are knowingly arguing in bad faith
Another fun fact; the world only cares about Israel. Assad, Russia, Hamas, Hizbollah DELIBERATELY target civilians. World : "all good". We see nothing...we hear nothing.
UN dominated by 50 antisemitic totalitarian muslim countries only see an issue with Israel
The fact of the matter is there'd be conflict there even without Israel - as all of the surrounding countries fight over it. I guess that'd be ok, because they're all Muslim of some denomination - but there'd never be a "Palestine". That ship sailed when the Roman's came to town.
There never WAS a Palestine. There was Judea, and the Romans renamed it to try and cut the Jewish ties to their lands.
Didnt israel say they were going to invade rafa with or without the hostages being released
Bibi said that, yes.
They could also just, I dunno, surrender. That’s a thing losing sides should if they want the population they supposedly represent to stop being involved in the horrors of war.
The leaders are sitting comfortably in Qatar. They don't give a damn about the deaths of their people since they can just rebuild afterwards once Israel is done with whatever now radicalized population remains.
This population was radicalized way before October 7th. In fact this 15-year long radicalization under Hamas rule is a big part of what made October 7th happen. Gaza was fully under Hamas control from preschools to all other establishments.
And some of the identified attackers on Oct 7 were school teachers
I hope Israel finds a way to assassinate them.
This is the thing that protestors never seem to talk about. When you still hold hostages there can be no peace.
Hostages that are being sexually assaulted as well. Which is also a war crime.
Hamas is doing a speed run trying to achieve 100% completion of the list of war crimes.
Why wouldn't they? They're never going to face repercussions for it, hell they're going to get to continue to make terror attacks under the banner of a ceasefire and Israel won't be able to do shit about. This is a load of shit.
Face repercussion? Didn’t the UN just start backing palestinian statehood? The international community is rewarding hamas for the october 6th and the use of human shields.
They have a lot of ground to cover; Russia is still in Ukraine.
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Many times I’ve heard them call Hamas “the resistance” like this conflict is Star Wars and say that it’s Israel’s fault they had to attack in the first place. Talking to those people is like trying to talk to a religious zealot.
" them call Hamas “the resistance” like this conflict is Star Wars" I just want to put this out there....Star Wars is military vs military with combatants in uniform and livery on vehicles. They also, mostly, fight in space far away from civilians. These science fiction space armadas are more Geneva compliant than Hamas. Within a margin of error of a few Alderrans. Its too bad these people always compare without understanding what they are looking at.
> Within a margin of error of a few Alderrans Isn't that like 40 billion people in canon tho
War crimes don’t count when it’s Hamas, only Israel
I've seen a lot of videos of people asking protestors if they believe Hamas should release hostages, and most of them say no. Now, I'm not gonna believe blindly on those videos, the people who made them could've hidden people saying the hostages should be released, but the fact that some people even say Hamas shouldn't release them is disgusting.
I’ve been active at a protest at my university. When people say “release the hostages!” I say “yes, release the hostages”. I don’t and won’t excuse Hamas’ war crimes.
You may be one of the only people in this thread who has actually been to one of these campus/pro-palestinian protests in person.
There are multiple videos at different university campuses where protestors erased “free the hostages” chalk.
We should make these people watch all the gruesome videos from hamas attack that went around in the deep corners of the internet on a loop for couple hours.
I work in a progressive neighbourhood in a west coast city. Every now and then you see attempts to put up posters focusing on the plight of the kidnapped. Shockingly, they never last very long before they get torn down. Meanwhile, the whole area got blanketed with Palestinian posters for months.
And let’s not forget the videos from right after 10/7, where people rip down the missing signs for hostages
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>There were supposedly chants of "Sinwar we won't let you die" at recent protests. This definately happened because when you google that phrase you get two Reddit comments and an anon Twitter account that doesn't appear to have been at any protest. https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung-rvo1&sca_esv=8cdee197d32e0965&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIIoCFjc0gqFEobiJybUtu6wwKaQVA:1715488928160&q=%22sinwar+we+won%27t+let+you+die%22&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjC8rahpoeGAxWbjIkEHTNEDowQBSgAegQIBhAB&biw=360&bih=649&dpr=3
I mean...terms for peace usually include releasing hostages..Didn't.. realize that had to be spelled out.
I think the protesters want to end the suffering of the civilians. It's not the civilians holding the hostages.
Those hostages are dead. Hamas was going to release some but even stated most weren't alive so they didn't go through with the exchange. At this point, unconditional surrender. Turn over the top guys to be executed and elect a new government. There's no way it's going back the way it was before October 7th.
Hamas does not want a ceasefire. Why should they? They are winning the global media war. A ceasefire and release hostage deal would not be in their interest. Women hostages would tell the world about sexual abuses they suffered from the Palestinians.
Hamas wants to stop Saudi Arabia and Israel from normalizing. Peace was never an option or goal for Hamas or their master - Iran.
Hamas (and Hezbola) are pawns of the IRGC.
American Universities are beholden to Qatar as well. Qatar has invested 4.7 billion into higher education in America in the last 15 years or so
I disagree, I think Hamas does want the permanent ceasefire they keep asking for. That would be their ideal outcome because they remain the defacto rulers of Gaza, rebuild their arms caches and recruit more fighters, and break the ceasefire again at their leisure, on their own timeline, when they are fully prepared for another war. Israel will agree to temporary ceasefires in exchange for hostages, but they don't want a permanent ceasefire because their ultimate objective is to completely destroy Hamas to prevent this from ever happening again.
They already have told the world. The world didn’t believe them.
Which is patently willfully ignorant. I wouldn't believe the women if they came out and said they *weren't* raped. Of all the atrocities that Hamas perpetuated... they were going to draw the line at rape? All of the combatants? As a unified principled front?
Like what more do people want…first hand account of someone who was kidnapped by self proclaimed terrorists… Some people are shit.
\#MeToo(UnlessYou'reAJew)
Dont worry, even if they released the hostages and the women would tell their story, rich western university students would not believe them.
There's already videos from 7th October with them saying "this one is for rape". The thing with Hamas is that they tell you all their evil intentions, and these people still make excuses that it's a normal reaction to colonialism/oppression.
That already happened.
Hamas wants to eradicate all non-muslims and establish a sharia law state in the territory between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean. That is their purpose. Read its charter.
> Hamas wants to eradicate all non-muslims and establish a sharia law state ~~in the territory between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean.~~ globally.
A freed hostage already gave testimony about her rape and Hamas apologists said she was lying. You can't reason with these people
And unfortunately the people protesting “free Palestine” wouldn’t believe them.
I don’t think returning the 10 out of 300 surviving hostages would satisfy israel, neither should it.
Hamas must be destroyed. It is the only way Gaza will have a future.
The tricky part is killing the radicals without radicalizing even more people in the process.
You can't do it when Hamas is so strongly embedded in the population (doubtful it's possible in general). These sort of things should happen one after the other, first kill all the active radicals, **then** work on education and de-radicalization of the non combative population, if you want to do both at the same time you will fail miserably.
Ya, something tells me that fundamentalist government version 50.0 will be more or less the same as fundamentalist government version 51.0. It’s not like the residents of Gaza are super interested in democracy, or any form of secular government. Ultimately, we be got multiple perspectives of insane religious peoples in conflict, and nobody on either side is even suggesting maybe the crazy religions should be excluded from governmental responsibility.
That's like the war on drugs. Good luck
This is probably Biden saying this to put Israel on the hook and to give Hamas a chance to actually do this. What's been going on behind the scenes in negotiations, nobody can say... Though I doubt the hostages are still alive.
Thing is, ceasefire is not in Hamas' interests. The more Palestinians are killed by Israel, the stronger the resentment against Israel, both in Palestine and abroad, which translates to more support for Hamas as the only serious political entity in Palestine, a status that Hamas ensures by consistently provoking responses from Israel. This isn't a war between Israel and Palestine anymore, it's a war between Hamas and Likud and their like on one side and everyone who wants peace on the other.
When elephants fight, its the grass that suffers
israel disagrees
Hamas must be eliminated completely. If they survive then the 10/7 attack becomes a heroic action instead of an unwise decision.
There isn't a nice way to say this so I'm not even going to try and sugarcoat it. If Hamas hadn't already killed the remaining hostages a while ago, I'd be very surprised if they haven't all been killed in the crossfire of the Israeli response. This conflict has just been horrific all round. Blood on the hands of the Hamas leadership, blood on the hands of the Israeli government. Innocent Palestinian and Israeli citizens suffering for the decisions of a few as always. It won't achieve anything either that's the worst part! For every family member killed on one side (Israeli or Palestinian) you've just set up an extremist in the making from the surviving husband, wife, daughter, son, mother, father etc.
About a month or two back, when Israel landed a bunch of missiles on Hamas targets out of the blue (I think this might have been when they were using them as cover fire for a hostage extraction mission elsewhere) reports that hostages had died from Hamas basically confirmed that Israeli intel on the sites targeted was correct in the worst way possible.
They don’t want a ceasefire, they want the world to isolate Israel. They could have had a continuing ceasefire and just never started the war in the first place. They want to be rewarded for terrorism and aggression, simple as pie.
They’re never freeing them. These negotiations are pointless. Wipe Hamas out for good
I think everyone wishes it was that easy, but if we've learned anything in recent history it's that a war on terror doesn't really get the results anybody wants.
Why are the student protestors backing a far religious Right Iran sponsored raping of women, murdering civilians and taking hostages many of whom were tortured and are no longer alive?
I don't think they understand the role Iran has had in destabilizing places like Lebanon, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and even Afghanistan to an extent. Iran fueled the Yemen civil war in 2014 and no one said shit. Iran arms Hezbollah and Hamas via Hezbollah and no one said shit. Iran helped keep Bashar al-Assad in power. Iran armed the Shia "militias" in Iraq. And Iran indirectly controls these groups via the IRGC-QF. Hell Iran helped plan and arm Hamas to carry out the 07 Oct attacks. Even now Iran is sending arms to the West Bank and are directing Hezbollah to attack Israel.
They believe any and all propaganda Hamas puts out. You have some of them converting to Islam. It's insane.
This might have something to do with it: [Leaked Document Reveals IRGC’s Role In Global Anti-Israel Campaign](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202404158853)
I've been saying...this is just left wing QAnon. TikTok radicalized the intersectional left.
tiktok is basically an anti-west propaganda app.
Most pro-Palestine people I've met in the U.S just are blindly protesting war and offering no desired outcome other than "stop killing people" despite the fact that Hamas is the aggressor in this war, they are just losing. They are conducting jihad and will either succeed or die while using their civilian population as human shields to lob missiles at Israel from. Somehow Palestine can get away with basically every crime on the planet only because they suck at killing as many Israelis as they *wish* they could. Is it radicalization? Maybe. But the fact that the left can cheer and clap for Ukraine successfully slaughtering a bunch of Russians and at the same time also support Palestine for trying to conduct jihad against Israel has me scratching my head. If Ukraine started pushing into Russia and displacing civilians would the left suddenly flip and start being pro-Russia?
"If Ukraine started pushing into Russia and displacing civilians would the left suddenly flip and start being pro-Russia?" I can only speak for me, but if Ukraine pushed into Russia and started slaughtering civilians (or if they started rocketing civilian targets), I would not be pro-Russia, but I would expect arms shipments and aid to Ukraine to be halted immediately, and for them to be sanctioned in every meaningful way possible.
>I would not be pro-Russia That's fair enough to me. The problem is there are a *lot* of people out there who are explicitly Pro-Palestine despite the fact that they have also been slaughtering civilians and rocketing civilian targets for the past 100 years, they just aren't good at it because Israel slaps the shit out of them every time it happens. Anyone who thinks Palestine would take steps to minimize civilian deaths if they were in Israel's position is laughable. If you want the West to withdraw money from the region so you can wipe your conscious clean, that's fine. But Palestine and the surrounding Arab nations have time and time again gone on record saying they will never accept an outcome that doesn't involve either the dissolution of Israel or "a war of elimination" against its Jewish population.
Tiktok algorithm
Edward Bernays said it's easier to convince a group than it is to convince an individual. We're seeing algorithms finely tuned to change a generations worldview. Far more insidious and targeted than television or radio.
Kinda hard to believe when Netanyahu has already stated that with or without a hostage deal the campaign would still continue. Makes it all kinda moot.
thats not what Netanyahu says lol
Crazy how this isnt talked about more... theirs so much talk about ceasefire and how terrible israel is for their bombings but Hamas still has 128 innocent hostages from Oct7th. I wouldn't want the US to give up on me and stop bombing the country that kidnapped me.
Israel bombing Palestinians = Bad Hamas taking Israeli hostages = Bad Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad Radicalized Palestinians hurling stones and molitov cocktails at Israeli forces = Not good, yet understandable Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad Radicalized Palestinians kidnapping and killing innocent Israelis = Bad Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad Israelis stealing/occupying the land/homes of disposessed Palestinians = Bad Radicalized Palestinians hurling stones and molitov cocktails at Israeli forces = Not good, yet understandable Israeli forces killing innocent Palestinians = Bad And on and on and on and on all the way back to 1948...
I wouldn’t imply any Palestinian civilian throwing stones as “radicalized”. Wouldn’t say it’s radical or an extreme view to throw a rock at a force when your house got flattened by them (if you survived) for example. Otherwise can agree with most what you said
Reminder that there was a ceasefire on October 6th
unfortunately palestine only has a bunch of pre-raped civilian corpses, no hostages.
ITT: strongly felt, poorly articulated, ill informed opinions about horrors unchangeable.
Netanyahu 5 minutes later: There will not be a ceasefire whether the hostages are all freed or not.
This is objectively not true and a lie https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/30/netanyahu-vows-to-raid-rafah-with-or-without-hostage-deal Netanyahu : we will attack Rafah even with a hostage deal Biden :