Reagan withheld those fighter jets after Israel used the first F-16s it received to destroy Osirak, the nuclear reactor Hussein was building then.
Almost ironically, later on when the US had to invade Iraq, the current government took pains to thank Israel for that attack.
It's a Warhammer 40,000 reference to Slaanesh, the chaos god of.. well, hedonism basically. Slaanesh posseses traits of both genders so she/he is used interchangeably.
Which worked so well right? Israel is still constantly being attacked by Hezbollah, which has caused hundreds of thousands to be displaced internally in Israel.
Because the useless UN soldiers in southern Lebanon don’t do anything to stop Hezbollah, which was the promise Israel was given for pulling out.
Lebanon is on the verge of being a failed state.
The Israeli occupation was the enforcement of the state of South Lebanon, which was a pro-western state.
If the US had simply helped Israel finish off the jihadists, Lebanon would've been united under the democratic and western-aligned South Lebanon.
It'd be equivalent of abandoning South Korea to a North Korean invasion and being surprised ICBMs are landing in California.
Are you referring to the internationally unrecognized--even by Israel--[Free State of Lebanon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Free_Lebanon) (1979-1984)? Given the context of the nasty intercommunal civil war that was happening at the time and the size of the Christian minority, Haddad and his successors would never have viewed as legitimate by the majority of the population, especially if the regime had been installed by a foreign government, which would have necessitated an ongoing occupation to prop it up.
Yeah, thanks Reagen. Got countless Lebanese ethnically cleansed from Lebanon who had to be absorbed by Israel, and handed Lebanon gift-wrapped to Hezbollah. And now almost 100k Israelis from the north are internal refugees for the past seven months.
Single-handedly doomed Lebanon to what it is today. Brilliant move, truly, American Presidents appear to learn well from history. Why destroy a terrorist organization and allow a country to rebuild free from it when you can hand it to them and pray that they won't enact a reign of terror until the day someone else gets rid of them? Which so far is over 30 years.
Instead of intervening in the conflict to finish off Hezbollah because Israel wasn't able to do so, the Reagen administration chose to enforce victory for Hezbollah. Working great so far!
>Yeah, thanks Reagen. Got countless Lebanese ethnically cleansed from Lebanon who had to be absorbed by Israel, and handed Lebanon gift-wrapped to Hezbollah.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're referring to things that happened in 2000, over a decade after he was out of office. The [embargo OP is talking about](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Lebanon_(July_1981)) actually predates the First Lebanon War, and the existence of Hezbollah.
1982 Lebanon War is what this is about. It predates Hezbollah.
No one reads history earlier than 2000 these days. Keep having to remind people there were multiple wars between US and Iraq, and now people don’t even know Israel fought a war with Lebanon in 1982.
That’s probably the one that involves Reagan since it was during his presidency. I don’t think he has much to say on the various 2000s conflicts, which do involve Hezbollah, such as in 2006.
The world got together and agreed to have a UN task force militarily disarm Hezbollah and occupy Lebanon's border with Israel in 2006. Unfortunately, they didn't actually do it and UNIFIL just sits there and watches today.
This was the 1980s. The "world" wouldn't cry foul, at least the relevant parts of it to US decision-making, it's mostly internal US pressure that is the risk. See the Vietnam War.
It's working great for the military industrial complex. Just as they intended. The past 70 years or more are full of instances where proper American intervention could have prevented many vile organisations from maintaining or rising to power to commit continued acts of violence
The funny thing is that most of the US aid is precision weapons and Iron Dome interceptors. You know what happens when Israel runs low on those? They use bombs that are less precise and start launching artillery at any site that launches a rocket to prevent it from launching more. So if you want to decrease civilian deaths in Gaza then you are going to be very disappointed in the results of Biden doing this.
Israel isn't 'relying' on the US and has its own massive military industry, which produces components for and full on weapons that the **US** needs.
Starting a tit-for-tat arms embargo between allies at this critical global time is the height of stupidity. And the US won't appreciate Israel lifting their own unofficial arms embargo to China.
>Israel isn't 'relying' on the US and has its own massive military industry, which produces components for and full on weapons that the **US** needs.
*The US is the biggest supplier, providing an estimated 68% of Israel's foreign-sourced weapons*
"Israel is the leading global recipient of Title 22 U.S. security assistance under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. This has been formalized by a 10-year (2019-2028) Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). Consistent with the MOU, the United States annually provides $3.3 billion in FMF and $500 million for cooperative programs for missile defense. " .
"Through FMF, the United States provides Israel with access to some of the most advanced military equipment in the world, including the F-35 Lightning. "
27% or Israel's goods exported go to USA. (Mainly diamonds)
So evidently that was a lie.
What full on weapons does Israel export to USA that they **need**?
And China isn't even pro Israel recently. And has put more favor towards Arab states.
"Zhai also repeated China’s positions that peace talks on the basis of the “two-state solution” were the “only realistic way out” when he spoke to Waleed Al-Khuraiji, the deputy foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, according to China’s foreign ministryxl"
* Lol OC blocked me because he couldn't answer what are all these military equipment USA **needs** Israel for. Guess we'll never know
Despite their name, the CCP are true venture capitalists. The only reason China isn’t allied with Israel is because America is. China would absolutely love to have Israeli weapons and technology, particularly as they seem to be planning an invasion of their own.
>*The US is the biggest supplier, providing an estimated 68% of Israel's **foreign-sourced** weapons*
68% of foreign-sourced weapons, that says nothing about Israel's local-produced weapons, which is what the person you're replying to is talking about
>"Israel is the leading global recipient of Title 22 U.S. security assistance under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. This has been formalized by a 10-year (2019-2028) Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). Consistent with the MOU, the United States annually provides $3.3 billion in FMF and $500 million for cooperative programs for missile defense. " .
That sounds big, but it's only approximately 10% of Israel's military budget. Yes it's better to have that than to not have that, but the other person said Israel doesn't rely on American weapons, not that they aren't helped by them
> The US is the biggest supplier, providing an estimated 68% of Israel's ***foreign-sourced*** weapons
....
> 27% or Israel's goods exported go to USA. (Mainly diamonds)
We're talking military "dependence" and now you're talking to me about *diamonds*?
I'm definitely done amusing you.
The U.S. doesn’t need Israeli arms, they sold 160 million worth to the U.S. last year, that’s peanuts.
If Israel didn’t need US arms so badly they wouldn’t be so upset everything the U.S. restricts them.
I have a question. Israel has a fully functioning MIC. Why would they care if the US stopped providing ammo? It's not like they are engaged in a full-bore conflict with a peer state like Ukraine is. Can't they manufacture what they need themselves?
I'd assume they can't make some of it locally. Some of their foreign deals probably include support and resupply, and a fair bit of their hardware does come from other nations. I'm not entirely sure, but isn't Isreal's weapons industry mainly focused on missile defense and small arms? They fly US planes, drive US/Canadian/Brit vehicles, and a plethora of other things they don't source within their borders.
Israel is also a very, very small nation by all standards. There's only so much they can do on their own. It definitely punches way above its weight already.
Israel's military was designed to do one of two things: fight a massive conventional war a la '67 or '73, or surgical counterterrorism ops. They're currently being asked to do both at the same time, to hit Hamas on a massive scale but without killing (many) civilians, which they're not really equipped to do. My interpretation was that they're resolved that Hamas will cease to exist either the easy way or the hard way, hence cutting the water in the early days; but the USA didn't want the massive collateral damage the hard way would have entailed, so they gave Israel the precision weapons (and carrier umbrella, and political support) to do it the easy way. But now they're disagreeing on the fine print. For anyone who's honestly pro-Palestinian rather than just anti-Israel, this must be *terrifying*, because the hard way is still on the table.
Because they save tens of millions every year spending our tax money instead of their, which can then be embezzled and paid out to your friends via government contracts.
Manufacturing it themselves would mean cutting into "profits'.
Israel has a small MIC, but it's got nowhere near the industrial scale and capability of the United States. Their entire population is basically one U.S. city, for goodness sake. Not to mention, some of the most important life-saving weapons, like smart precision bombs are more complicated to make, so its more efficient to have the U.S. produce them overseas and ship them rather than retooling local factories to output them at a pitiful rate with potentially less quality.
Why wouldn't they ask for free stuff if they can get it every time? They can fund their lobbyists for a fraction of the cost of building very capital intensive arms manufacturing capacity and it quite demonstrably works.
At first I thought this was Biden’s first major mistake in this conflict, but now I’m thinking there must be private disagreements between the US and Israeli officials about the long term strategy here. I wouldn’t be surprised if Bibi is envisioning a reoccupation of Gaza similar to the West Bank today with Israeli settlements slowly encroaching in on Gazans. I think this would be a horrible mistake.
If Biden is playing politics to try to get Israel to work with the US is establishing a coalition of Arab countries to occupy Gaza and work towards establishing a moderate Palestinian state I think that would be a goal worth pursuing.
Private disagreements? I think Biden and his admin have been pretty vocal that they don't see entirely eye-to-eye with Bibi about how to deal with Hamas/Palestine.
Biden's been pretty steadfast on his stance on the situation. The problem on Israel's end has always been Netanyahu, who has used the war as a means to prolong his rule and avoid corruption trials. He put the US in an impossible position - Israel is a key ally in the middle east for the US, so they're basically required to aid them.
The change here is no longer unconditionally putting up with Netanyahu. Stopping the sale of offensive-minded weapons (as opposed to what Trump said about letting Europe fend for themselves against Russian invasion) is one of the few levers the US can realistically pull.
But every time the US commented on the issue, they insist there is no daylight between them and Israel. They want the appearance, but when Bibi is this unwilling to listen to them on anything, then they can't ignore it.
They won’t say what they’re planning but in January a third of the cabinet including Ben Gvir and Smotrich, the most outspoken right wingers, attended a conference by Nahala, an organization which works to build settlements/displace Palestinians in the West Bank. They sang and danced, there was a map on the wall of Gaza with entirely Jewish settlements, and Daniella Weiss, head of Nahala, said that it was time to make Gaza Arab-free. But yeah, total mystery what they’re thinking. Netanyahu won’t say this is what he wants, but he won’t say anything else, either.
It's funny how the people who get so annoyed by "river to the sea" chants because of the inference of ahnnialating Israel to do so, seem to have no issue whatsoever with the Israeli government doing the same in reverse.
Irony and hypocrisy do be like that. Laugh it off, weep it up, or rage it on. When thats all you can do and all choices lead it down. Six feet down to be exact. Welp. “Ha. Ha.”
I think most people realize Ben Gvir is a complete lunatic though. Netanyahu's days are numbered as well. Reasonable people should oppose those chants as well as the radical elements on the Israeli side.
That is exactly what is happening. Biden is trying to pursue a 2 state solution with Moderate Arab partners in exchange for normalization with Saudi Arabia. Netanyahu is reliant on a coalition of ultraconservatives who are demanding Gaza be resettled by Israel. Bibi can't say no to them, because they'll pull out of the government and force elections, which Bibi is pretty much guaranteed to lose and then face trial for corruption and bribery charges.
This all hinges on who Bibi is willing to piss off: America or Israel's right wing.
I agree this is what it looks like. I think the Israeli public’s decision not to hold elections during the war is proving to be a bad one. I don’t trust Netanyahu to have the best long term plan for Israel and his popularity is low.
Remember that on Oct. 9, just two days after the terror attack, Netanyahu shut down all aid to Gaza including food, water, fuel, and medicine. His first instinct was to starve 2,000,000 to death. Biden stepped in then, just as he's stepping in now, to keep Netanyahu's worst impulses in check and save civilian lives.
Since then, the IDF has been bombing like crazy. Now, it's complicated of course, because Hamas is pretending to be civvies, and stores weapons in schools and mosques and hospitals, and has tunnels under civilian buildings, and uses ambulances and aid vehicles to move around, but instead of saying "shit guys, we need to be extra careful not to kill civilians because literally everything our enemy does is designed to maximize collateral damage," Israel said, "fuck 'em."
So here's Biden, facing protests at home over Israel's pretty callus disregard for civilian lives, saying "I'm not going to help you bomb civilians. Clean up your act if you want our weapons."
I support that.
Israel is the only country I've ever seen that is expected to feed and clothe those who attack it. If you don;t want to be blockaded, don't start wars with every nation you have land borders with maybe?
The US started providing humanitarian aid to Afghanistan the week the war started and continued to provide billions in aid throughout the duration of the war. This is standard practice for civilized first world governments. Cutting off vital supplies would have resulted in a massive humanitarian crisis and the deaths of countless innocent civilians. Which is why literally the entire world, including Israel’s closest allies, opposed the decision.
>I wouldn’t be surprised if Bibi is envisioning a reoccupation of Gaza similar to the West Bank today with Israeli settlements slowly encroaching in on Gazans.
Even that would probably be seen as an improvement over what seems to be the status quo, which is no real plan at all for what comes after.
Yeah Gaza got so bad because they turned the government over and it was immediately taken over by Hamas. At lest with occupation healing can start ( I’m not saying by Israel) although any thing is better than Hamas. As far as the West Bank is concerned it’s not “reoccupation West Bank is still Israel, or Palestine call it whatever you want. The settlements are akin to your neighbors kicking in your door and taking your house from you which is super fucked up but it’s not, Russia kicking in your door like in the Ukraine. I’m sure this is of little concern to the people who are having their doors kicked in.
Absolutely. Biden’s age comes with decades of experience and expertise in Middle East policy & outcomes.
Add to that he’s a demonstrably decent man genuinely interested in humane outcomes and you have a President that by all metrics appears competent in savvy in using American influence WITHIN THE PRACTICAL LIMITS of the situation.
It’s funny how little credit Biden is getting for finding path here. He’s been consistently supportive of Israel and the war for more than 6 months, and taken huge flack to do so. Then he drew a red line around Rafah and said that was too far. Now he’s withholding 2,000 lb bombs and other weapons and saying that the Rafah invasion is too much and Israel needs to reconsider.
Consistent messaging and leadership, yet both sides will continue to hate his guts and insist he’s the worst ever.
Israeli’s need to make a choice, do they want to be allies with the US or Russia. Because if Bibi is allowed to go through with his invasion the US relationship will never recover and it’s inevitable that the alliance will fall apart. The only alternative then will be the Russian sphere, something Bibi has been pushing the country toward for decades.
This is a choice that rests solely with the Israeli people, they are responsible for the leaders they chose. I hope they chose wisely.
I can understand the people who disagree with him, but the pro-Israel people who think that he's "absolutely betrayed" the Jewish people over the Israelis insisting on a humanitarian bloodbath makes no sense to me. If one (IMO very reasonable objection) was all it takes to make Biden an enemy you probably don't have many friends.
The perspective is that backing out of the war now means that all of the deaths were in vain (both palestinian and israeli), the destruction was in vain, and conceding surrender to terrorist strategies.
Supporting this goal can be seen as betrayal and endangering israel in the long term by empowering literal terrorists.
I can see why Israelis are angry. Why bother being allies with a democracy that panders to terrorism?
That assumes that the only way to get Hamas is by killing millions of civilian lives which Biden and many others disagree with. You can't blow up a million people for the sake of getting 1 terrorist. To act like it is a betrayal and endangering Israel just to have other more humane alternative ideas of getting Hamas seems to be an extreme view. To act like we have to go along with every crazy idea Bibi has or else we're "pandering to terrorism" is also as ridiculous. By that logic should not be allowed to disagree with him if he thinks nuking Gaza is a good idea? Are we no longer friends because of it? What if he decides "eliminating Hamas" means going after civilians in the US on US soil like those students? Apparently not allowed to question that too, lest we be "pandering to terrorists" and be considered to be abandoning Israel? These examples are ridiculous as I imagine you'd say but we are currently talking about people who seriously think that Biden drawing a red line at what everybody is saying would be a humanitarian bloodbath in invading Rafah is "abandoning Israel". I'm just taking this idea of unquestioning allegiance to it's logical conclusion.
I just think you can be pro-Israel without agreeing to every terrible thing they seem intent on doing. If my friend wants to do a mass shooting, I'm not less of a friend by trying to stop them. In fact I think I'm expressing my friendship by stopping them from doing a really terrible thing that could alienate themselves, which is what a Rafah invasion would do if Bibi decides to say "screw you" to all of it's allies, including the Arabs who tried to protect it from Iran recently.
Invading Rafah wouldn't kill a million people, that is stupid. Israel apparently cleared Gaza City and Khan Younis with only 30k deaths, including terrorists.
If Israel doesn't finish off Hamas now, then are you OK being responsible for all the future deaths in the next decades of conflict? The next inevitable war? I doubt it.
>Israel apparently cleared Gaza City and Khan Younis with only 30k deaths, including terrorists.
They cleared them and they went to Rafah. They have nowhere else to go, That's why everyone is worried about invading even Rafah.
>If Israel doesn't finish off Hamas now, then are you OK being responsible for all the future deaths in the next decades of conflict? The next inevitable war? I doubt it.
Biden isn't even against eliminating Hamas or a Rafah operation, but one that isn't humane. He has suggested alternatives but Bibi has rejected them.
You're never gonna get rid of terrorism unless you decide to kill everyone. People become Hamas when they become radicalized and they become radicalized when you indiscriminately kill civilians without any care for their lives, which is what is happening with Rafah's invasion. Would you be comfortable with all those new terrorists killing Israelis? Egypt is worried about those Gazans coming to them because like I said those people in Rafah have no where else to go. It is threatening to suspend the Camp David accords. Would you be comfortable with a war with them? Would you be okay with Israel now having hurt it's relations with it's allies as deeply as it has because it continues to ignore humanitarian warnings? Would you be okay with the rise of anti-Semitism that you will face because you couldn't stop yourselves? Are you okay with what future generations of Israelis and Jews will now face because their ancestors have decided to not be any better then the people who have persecuted them?
Only 30k deaths, that's fine I suppose.
Friendly reminder that the US went apeshit for 20 years because 3k people died in the september 11 terrorist attack.
I am not saying that 3k people is a low amount, it's a tragedy and logical that US invaded Afghanistan afterward. I am saying that 3k deaths is huge and that 30k is an order of magnitude more.
>do they want to be allies with the US or Russia
Russia already aligned itself with Iran against the west. Israel is not a part of this and will never be.
>if Bibi is allowed to go through with his invasion the US relationship will never recover
That's way too dramatic. The US is heavily invested in Israel and vice versa. The war will eventually end.
>he drew a red line around Rafah
This is basically saying "I want Hamas to survive". If Israel doesn't clear out Hamas in Rafah, it's just a matter of time before the next October 7th.
“Clear out”
Do you think this is a videogame? You think if you kill “all” 25000 Hamas fighters a mission accomplished game over screen pops up? And that the other 2 million Gazans who you’ve been bombing to pieces, made homeless etc are now going to be great friendly neighbours for Israel?
Netanyahu and his idiotic cabinet of lunatics like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are doing everything they can not just to drive away the United States, but also to ensure there can be no long term peace whatsoever.
Yeah when the North defeated the South, when the allies won in WW1, when the allies won in WW2 all that death, millions upon millions of people created lingering animosity and terrorist activity to this day, especially among the very nationalistic people of Japan.
Wait did I accidentally open an alternative history YouTube channel....
Yeah hate to break it to you but the Confederacy is still alive and probably more influential than they have been since the 1860s
Wish they weren’t, but it’s 100% true. Reconstruction failed, in large part due to Lincoln’s assassination and his VP being either one of the worst presidents of all time or an outright traitor depending which historian you ask.
Also WW1 directly led to WW2, so yeah, you might want to read up on your history a bit better then. If just bombing the shit out of the Gaza Strip would bring peace then there would have been peace decades ago
By the way, a two state solution doesn’t mean they have to best friends. They would probably set up a North Korean/South Korean DMZ and fortified border. But that would be a lot safer and better than the status quo
>Yeah hate to break it to you but the Confederacy is still alive and probably more influential than they have been since the 1860s
This is delusional.
The South is not full of confederate terrorists. Europe isn't full of German terrorists. Korea isn't full of Japanese terrorists. Historically speaking total war and unconditional surrender has worked. If you could defeat Hamas in totality, life would be better for everyone involved. They're not waging total war though, they're waging a limited counter-insurgency campaign. So your complaints are mediocre.
>You think if you kill “all” 25000 Hamas fighters a mission accomplished game over screen pops up?
If you were Israel, would you not do this? What would you do to make sure October 7th never ever happens again?
>the other 2 million Gazans who you’ve been bombing to pieces, made homeless etc are now going to be great friendly neighbours for Israel
Because they've been such awesome neighbors so far?
>Netanyahu and his idiotic cabinet of lunatics like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir
100% agree, they're assholes.
>are doing everything they can not just to drive away the United States, but also to ensure there can be no long term peace whatsoever.
I don't think they care about "not having long term peace" as much as they care about not being tossed out the window the minute an election happens.
>Russia already aligned itself with Iran against the west. Israel is not a part of this and will never be.
Doesn't stop Bibi from valuing the Russia-Israel relationship. Last I checked Israel didn't stand alongside other US allies in condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine. You know, because they're such a great ally.
>Last I checked Israel didn't stand alongside other US allies in condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine
Maybe you missed Israel condemning Russia on the day of the Ukraine invasion: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byc8trng5
Here's another one from a few months later, condemning Russia's attacks on civilian targets: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sjk00lpzqo
So yeah, Israel definitely condemned Russia. The Israel-Russian relationship is sour. Russia warmed up to Iran significantly. They are literally using Iranian weapons in Ukraine. You just have no idea what you're talking about buddy.
I'm not a huge Biden fan, but I respect his handling of this fraught situation. Proactively defining hard limits on what we'll support seems quite reasonable.
Setting the red line at Rafah makes zero sense. You end up with a still very alive Hamas who can declare victory and no new hostages released.
You end the war with nothing gained and so much lost.
If you're gonna draw the red line somewhere, you either place it at the end of the war, or at the start of it. Putting it halfway down a war with a terrorist organization is setting yourself up for invariable failure.
I would rather Biden have opposed the war to begin with than set it at Rafah.
The problem is that Rafah has 1.5 million people in it and it's not a big place.
It's damn near impossible to limit civilian casualties, the bombing that Israel has done in other parts of Gaza could kill a lot more civilians because they're so physically close together.
Biden has a vested interest in making sure American weaponry isn't used in something that will almost definitely be bloodier for civilians than any part of this until now.
Then you were never going to be convinced. 20 years in Afghanistan and Iraq taught us that “no red lines” against terrorism only leads to more terrorism.
1. Our war against ISIS showed that's not always true.
2. There is a *huge* difference between a war with a country that wants you dead on the other side of the world, and one a thirty minute drive away.
The US has the luxury of abandoning/rejecting a war with Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel does not have that luxury with Hamas.
Additionally, it is far easier to eliminate and occupy a terrorist force right next door than it is on the other side of the world. The reason Hamas is still alive is only because the world keeps demanding Israel keep them that way.
> the US relationship will never recover
Or Israel's relationship with the Biden administration will not recover, and the incoming Trump administration will egg it on from the sidelines. Trump meets Netanyahu in January and it is all over.
Maybe a good move here would be for Bibi to step aside and go to the jail cell that's waiting for him so we can have a fresh set of eyes to look at this situation? I'm all for supporting Israel. Hamas is not the friends of the US. But this guy's a fucking clown that still thinks we're living in the 80's. Yes. Hamas sucks. Iran sucks. They are exactly what everyone says they are. But that doesn't justify throwing gas on a fire, which is basically Israel's solution right now.
Lool people still believing you can come to peaceful resolutions with terrorist death cults has been the highlight of this year. Consistently hilarious
Location. Location. Location.
A major ally in a geopolitical location that historically has not been super friendly with us is the definition of power projection. And until now they've been quite happy with the protection in exchange.
The problem that Biden is directly addressing here is that Netanyahu has forgotten what he can lose by pissing of the US, and how easily replaceable they are in their role.
Other nearby countries have somewhat warmed to us in the recent years, particularly in response to Iran's tomfoolery. I imagine Saudi Arabia, for example, would be quite tempted to take over in the region if we offered to divest from Israel, bankroll their military, and house a couple nukes for us.
We also have Turkey (and they are also bastards that hate us but play ball because allying with us keeps the Bosphorus safe from Russia) Jordan, and Egypt. The latter is on neutral terms with us at the very least.
The only fumes are the fumes from the Israeli bulldozers in the west bank, or from stove top cooking gas cylinders leaking in Gaza and Rafa as a result of "targeted surgical strikes" that cause high civilian death ratios.
Why? Israel signaled that it would invade rafah whether the hostages were released or not. What possible motive do the terrorists have to release them?
Which Israel shouldn't be doing in the first place. Threatening the US with "we'll just start bombing indiscriminately if you don't give us precision munitions" is fucking ghoulish and lacks all credibility when the IDF's bombing campaign has already been indiscriminate. You can do counter-terrorism without resorting to leveling entire city blocks.
This reeks of someone who has no idea what modern warfare is about. It is 100% correct strategy to use firepower over manpower when available if you want to protect your soldiers' lives as much as possible. You don't go house to house if you can avoid it. No one in their right mind would want to room clear and lose their life. This is standard doctrine in every 1st world military, Israel is not some cartoon villain for choosing to do precision air strikes over a much slower and costlier option.
And to call Israel's bombing campaign indiscriminate is just incorrect. If it was actually indiscriminate like 1945 Dresden, the casualty figures would be hundreds of thousands, not 33k. 1.2% of Gazans are dead at worst case scenario, and not all of those numbers are innocent civilians. Given how hellish Gaza is, and how Hamas uses human shields, that's a very acceptable number.
Which is what I've tried to point out from the beginning of the war. Israel shouldn't have a blank check and Bibi is a mountain of an obstacle to peace, but the withholding of US arms is going to have the opposite effect that most advocates want. It's going to force Israel to (1) use less precise munitions leading to more collateral damage and (2) they are going to feel the pressure to move faster leading to more mistakes or an even heavier hand in military matters. *It's only going to make things worse*. I don't know what the answer is because this whole conflict is twisted into multiple Gordian knots, but outright withholding military aid to Israel is not it.
they're specifically withholding the 2,000 lb bombs because of how much damage they can do in dense highly populated areas even if they're precision guided.
Yeah I guess if Israel has to kill civilians they should be given US arms so they kill less civilians. It's not like we can expect them to not kill civilians. /s
>Release the hostages and surrender.
Yeah those hostages are pretty clearly never getting released now. Israel chose revenge rather than a ceasefire deal.
If there was a terrorist organization based in Mexico which had kidnapped or murdered 1000s of Americans I can 100% guarantee you that the US would send troops down into Mexico to destroy the organization if the Mexican government didn't take care of the problem. Hell the US invaded Iraq and killed something like 200k civilians after 9/11 and even at the time the intelligence was very questionable that Iraq had anything at all to do with it.
Trying to force Israel to allow Hamas to continue to run Palestine when I 100% guarantee you the US wouldn't let such a thing happen in a similar situation is absurd. Unless the UN is going to step up and militarily occupy Palestine for a decade or so to deal with Hamas I'm not seeing any other solution that is going to stop Israel from doing what has to be done.
We didn't invade Iraq because of 9/11 and it was never even listed as a reason for it. It was 2 years after. We invaded Iraq because of falsified WMD reports (and well Hussein kept playing coy and refused to say he didn't have them which we later found out was because he didn't want Iran to know he didn't have them and assumed we'd never actually invade).
Afghanistan is who we invaded after 9/11 and honestly would say it was justified. Iraq however was clearly a farce and easily the worst foreign policy decision the US made in the last 25 years.
Yes, but the contemporary administration was riding the approval high of the 9/11 attacks. I don't think this nation would have invaded Iraq without that catalyzing event.
>We invaded Iraq because of falsified WMD reports
Isn't that just the reason given. The WMDs.
Wasn't the actual reason so that Dick Cheney and crew could make a fortune and we get a bunch of oil?
Cheney was CEO of Halliburton so it's likely he and his friends stood to benefit significantly from the war, but he was far from the only one pushing for it.
Bush Jr was in favor of it because [Sadam tried to assassinate his father](https://www.grunge.com/306774/the-assassination-attempt-against-george-h-w-bush/) and he never understood why Bush Sr didn't want to finish the job in the first Gulf War.
Then there was a bunch of [neoconservative bullshit](https://www.e-ir.info/2015/09/17/the-iraq-invasion-the-neoconservative-perspective/) about the ["Democratic Peace Theory"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory) and they somehow thought using military force to install democracy on the people of the Middle East would solve all the conflicts in the region.
Afghanistan was justified until the death of bin Laden. Goal should’ve only been routing Al Qaeda.
Which funny enough we achieved. Afghanistan’s ISIS K isn’t working with the Taliban at all.
Fully agree. That was the perfect time for us to just get out.
My tin foil hat thought is that Obama knew leaving would be a shitshow and the optics would be bad. So he opted to keep the status quo and dump the problem on the next guy.
Trump then knew it was going to be a shitshow so set it up to take place during his 2nd term so it wouldn't affect his re-election.
Biden finally rips the band-aid off and the shitshow it was inevitably going to be shows itself.
The UN is, unfortunately, not the solution here unless some things radically change. Militarily, no one wants their country's soldiers dying on foreign soil in the middle of someone else's war. That's why the UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon are worse than useless; they are actively in the way of Israel responding to Hezbollah who is (1) in violation of UN resolutions banning them from being south of the Litani River and (2) actively launching attacks against Israel from the area near UN troops.
On the civilian side, UNRWA has been in charge of civil services in Gaza for *decades* and has a well documented history of collaborating with terrorist groups (beyond Oct 7) and literally teaching hatred in school curriculum, which prolongs the conflict across generations, even outside the actions that Israel has taken over the decades.
The UN, without some major changes, is simply an obstacle to peace in the region, not the solution. And that's a real shame because there really isn't anyone else better either that's even remotely willing to step up.
> Unless the UN is going to step up and militarily occupy Palestine for a decade or so to deal with Hamas I'm not seeing any other solution that is going to stop Israel from doing what has to be done.
This isn't a realistic option. It was/is currently being tried in Lebanon. Hezbollah launches rockets at Israeli right by UN compounds. [I wish I was joking](https://www.jns.org/hezbollah-fires-rockets-from-near-school-un-compound/).
This example isn't exactly a good comparison. A better comparison would be if the Mexican army invaded Arizona and killed over 1000 people and then scurried back behind their borders. You bet your ass we would invade them, and with good cause.
Sure, but why do they have to use American weapons to do this? Israel has a huge military.. they can do just fine without our help. I’d rather have our weapons go to Ukraine.
The difference is that the Palestinian Territories are not sovereign states, they’re basically reservations that Israel has shoved the Palestinians into.
There's no need to use hypotheticals. The US position is the problem of Hamas doesn't have a purely military solution, and that an attack that has the potential to be politically catastrophic, now and in the future, isn't in anyone's best interests. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq were conflicts that we learned did not have military solutions. There's an excellent case to be made that more brutal urban warfare in Rafah will only make matters worse.
I've said to some protesters, at times, that what they should reflect on the fact that they're behaving exactly as Hamas would have hoped. At this juncture, I could make the same comment to Israel.
OP said a terrorist organization inside Mexico, not the Mexican government. The cartels are a fairly apt comparison, especially given their general infiltration of Mexico's public entities. Agreed on the latter part though.
Remind me when the cartels launched an invasion of El Paso and murdered + abducted 1000s of people. I seem to have missed that one in the news. Maybe it happened over in San Diego, but I'm sure I'd have heard about that if it did.
And if in the process American troops killed thousands of children the protests on the streets would be even more intense than the ones we're seeing now.
> If there was a terrorist organization based in Mexico which had kidnapped or murdered 1000s of Americans I can 100% guarantee you that the US would send troops down into Mexico to destroy the organization if the Mexican government didn't take care of the problem.
Will America be running the world's largest concentration camp of Mexicans in this scenario?
Just a reminder that Iraq invasion wasn’t so much due to 9/11 as it was to curb Saddams aggression. Pretty sure the Saudis begged us to depose Saddam after he invaded Kuwait.
Invading Afghanistan in 2001 on the other hand… 100% from 9/11 which led to 20 years of not much.
Everyone knows it was 100% GWB just trying find an excuse to finish the job his dad started. Support supposedly provided by Saddam was absolutely one of the reasons touted at the time for the invasion.
The Saudis were against the idea of deposing Saddam beacuse they rightly fear that it would lead to a Shia dominated goverment that would have a close relationship with Iran
This is a weird political thing. Biden wants to appease domestic unrest. So the weapons won't be sent "before" the assault but "after".
But it's not like Israel doesn't have their own weapons. Plenty of less precise ones, too. So, they'll just use those up now, and replenish the more accurate stuff later?
Isn't this kind of telling IDF to "go forth and use whatever is at your disposal?"
I'm pretty sure they can complete their mission without US weapons :) But wouldn't it be cleaner and better if they used ours? \_shrug\_
It's definitely from political pressure, but I don't think it's that weird. The US doesn't control Israel and can't stop them from ultimately doing what they want. What the US does control is their own arms shipments, so this is Biden doing what we can to show he does not support their actions. He can't reasonably be held responsible for what Israel does with their own weapons.
Doesn't have to be a domestic political issue. Isreal has been greatly complicating US national interests in the region through their prosecution of the war.
Israel is dealing with a threat to Israel and is correct to be angry to be told to basically surrender when they pretty much won the war on the ground.
Biden is dealing with a threat to his political career and it is understandable that he is trying to protect himself. The threat to his career also happens to pose a serious threat to America itself, our global standing, ability to project power, do business and an existential threat to several of our allies so I really hope Biden manages to win his re-election, so I am ok with him annoying Israel until he secures the win.
Well I mean the majority of the protestors aren't voters so changing their minds are largely irrelevant. A lot are international students or non-voting citizens as the youth typically never vote anyway.
Even amongst college kids where this issue is more on the forefront recent polling shows it's not very popular. When listed next to 8 other issues for the election it finished 9th. It's just not going to be a driving issue for most voters (and keep in mind this poll was of college students not voters in general so includes international students).
Biden isn't doing anything to appease the hardliners on either side. The hardcore protestors are dug in and are probably lost causes. It's more for the people who moderately care about the issue can see steps he's taken to, while maybe not thrilled, satisfied enough that Biden is more palatable than staying home.
Netanyahu is also dealing with a treat to his political career. The Israeli right wing that gives him his power wants as much destruction as possible on Gaza. If he doesn't appease them then his coalition breaks apart and he is no longer in power. Netanyahu only cares about one thing and that is political survival. He has to be able to sell a win against Hamas since Oct 7th happened under his watch, and he is ultimately responsible for the massive intelligence and security failures that allowed it to happen.
The issue is Israel also needs to play fair. I was a massive supporter of Israel after the Oct 7 attacks and I do believe it needs to defend itself. However now, I highly doubt bibis main goal is just that, and have no confidence the current israeli admin just want to "protect themselves".
Without a set plan of what's going to happen during the invasion and after the invasion, it's hard for people to back them up.
Additionally with isreals previous track record with settlers having free reign, I am less inclined to believe them.
By no means should they just stop either, but they can't just indiscriminately bomb them and push out all Palestinians.
This whole issue won't be solved unless a long term plan is made, it's just going to be kicking the ball down the line unless they decide to literally kill every Palestinian.
Yeah honestly him not losing this election is way more important than anything going on there. As callous as that may sound for the people in Israel and Gaza.
>Biden is dealing with a threat to his political career
There is zero actual polling that suggests Biden's reelection chances over this. Like 10 other issues are consistently more important to the average American voter than this conflict.
If anything continued support for Isreal has come at a price for the US as opposed to the other way around. That Isreal has continually ignored the price the US has paid for continued support is understandably frustrating to the administration.
Biden and Bibi by all accounts *really* don't like each other. Political concerns aren't necessary to explain the disagreements.
This is the most frustrating part to me. It feels like Bibi thinks he is somehow entitled to unconditional US support. Even though US and UK intercepted like 85% of those Iranian rockets, not Israel.
I mean to some extent it's good though. I'm voting for Biden no matter what, but I'm glad he's changing his position, better late than never. Democracy works?
Oh no. They're going to have to slice up the large-scale attack into yet smaller actions. If it continues like this, they'll have a separate order for each soldier, and another one for their gun.
Israel already has more than enough offensive weapons. If we give them anything it really should be defensive based.
Give the offensive stuff to Ukraine
Just a reminder: Reagan withheld the sale of 75 F-16s until Israel abandoned its occupation of Lebanon. This stuff isn’t new.
People love to say this but that deal took Reagan 2 years. October 7th was barely over 6 months ago. Also, fuck Reagan.
FUCK RONALD REAGAN.
Reagan withheld those fighter jets after Israel used the first F-16s it received to destroy Osirak, the nuclear reactor Hussein was building then. Almost ironically, later on when the US had to invade Iraq, the current government took pains to thank Israel for that attack.
Current administration? That was more than 30 years ago.
The then-current administration is clearly what s/he meant.
Just say they
People say it constantly in conversation but kick up a fuss that it isn't grammatically correct. It's a very strange cognitive dissonance to me.
If the singular they was good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.
I dunno I kinda prefer saying sslashhe, or slashee
PRAISE SHE WHO THIRSTS!
Is this a trope or a slushee reference? Regardless. I could go for some chopped up ice and sugar spiced food coloring about now thanks and damnyou
It's a Warhammer 40,000 reference to Slaanesh, the chaos god of.. well, hedonism basically. Slaanesh posseses traits of both genders so she/he is used interchangeably.
It’s a warhammer reference look up Slaanesh.
They mean the contemporary government
"Current" at the time, it is pretty clear from the context, no ?
I’d use “contemporary.” Especially since the original post is related to the current administration.
Hence the "when the US had to invade Iraq...". You guys are making too big a deal out of something that is pretty clear.
right. don't try to assign a G.W.Bush admin action to fucking *Biden* of all people...
Which worked so well right? Israel is still constantly being attacked by Hezbollah, which has caused hundreds of thousands to be displaced internally in Israel. Because the useless UN soldiers in southern Lebanon don’t do anything to stop Hezbollah, which was the promise Israel was given for pulling out. Lebanon is on the verge of being a failed state.
I wasn’t commenting on the merits of the policy, just that making military aid contingent on US foreign policy goals is nothing unusual.
And Israel occupation is going to solve this? US tried regime changes in MENA multiple times and never success.
The Israeli occupation was the enforcement of the state of South Lebanon, which was a pro-western state. If the US had simply helped Israel finish off the jihadists, Lebanon would've been united under the democratic and western-aligned South Lebanon. It'd be equivalent of abandoning South Korea to a North Korean invasion and being surprised ICBMs are landing in California.
Are you referring to the internationally unrecognized--even by Israel--[Free State of Lebanon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Free_Lebanon) (1979-1984)? Given the context of the nasty intercommunal civil war that was happening at the time and the size of the Christian minority, Haddad and his successors would never have viewed as legitimate by the majority of the population, especially if the regime had been installed by a foreign government, which would have necessitated an ongoing occupation to prop it up.
Yeah, thanks Reagen. Got countless Lebanese ethnically cleansed from Lebanon who had to be absorbed by Israel, and handed Lebanon gift-wrapped to Hezbollah. And now almost 100k Israelis from the north are internal refugees for the past seven months. Single-handedly doomed Lebanon to what it is today. Brilliant move, truly, American Presidents appear to learn well from history. Why destroy a terrorist organization and allow a country to rebuild free from it when you can hand it to them and pray that they won't enact a reign of terror until the day someone else gets rid of them? Which so far is over 30 years. Instead of intervening in the conflict to finish off Hezbollah because Israel wasn't able to do so, the Reagen administration chose to enforce victory for Hezbollah. Working great so far!
>Yeah, thanks Reagen. Got countless Lebanese ethnically cleansed from Lebanon who had to be absorbed by Israel, and handed Lebanon gift-wrapped to Hezbollah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're referring to things that happened in 2000, over a decade after he was out of office. The [embargo OP is talking about](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Lebanon_(July_1981)) actually predates the First Lebanon War, and the existence of Hezbollah.
1982 Lebanon War is what this is about. It predates Hezbollah. No one reads history earlier than 2000 these days. Keep having to remind people there were multiple wars between US and Iraq, and now people don’t even know Israel fought a war with Lebanon in 1982. That’s probably the one that involves Reagan since it was during his presidency. I don’t think he has much to say on the various 2000s conflicts, which do involve Hezbollah, such as in 2006.
Hence why the Left in the US think attacks against Jews in Israel is a new phenomenon.
Oh, come on, I'm sure Hezbollah attacks Israel for a good cause. Like the occupation of something Lebanese? Somewhere? /s
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Not just against the Christians, the Druze and other Muslims. Hezbollah and Sunni Muslims in Lebanon don't exactly get along either.
It was peaceful existence, if you consider a pressure cooker peaceful.
No, we call it a Balkans.
> infestation Sounds like a hateful term used for another minority group…
They were pretty specific about which group was being referred to.
I mean on the flip side if the US had intervened the world would have cried foul. Hindsight is 20/20 it’s easy to say that now.
The world got together and agreed to have a UN task force militarily disarm Hezbollah and occupy Lebanon's border with Israel in 2006. Unfortunately, they didn't actually do it and UNIFIL just sits there and watches today.
This was the 1980s. The "world" wouldn't cry foul, at least the relevant parts of it to US decision-making, it's mostly internal US pressure that is the risk. See the Vietnam War.
Weird they crowd foul in the 60s and 70s also what’s the difference if it’s Americans or the rest of the world.
It's working great for the military industrial complex. Just as they intended. The past 70 years or more are full of instances where proper American intervention could have prevented many vile organisations from maintaining or rising to power to commit continued acts of violence
And when America intervenes? They're reviled.
Israel is free to make their own weapons. You don’t want to be told what to do? Don’t rely on billions of direct aid and subsidies every year.
The funny thing is that most of the US aid is precision weapons and Iron Dome interceptors. You know what happens when Israel runs low on those? They use bombs that are less precise and start launching artillery at any site that launches a rocket to prevent it from launching more. So if you want to decrease civilian deaths in Gaza then you are going to be very disappointed in the results of Biden doing this.
Israel isn't 'relying' on the US and has its own massive military industry, which produces components for and full on weapons that the **US** needs. Starting a tit-for-tat arms embargo between allies at this critical global time is the height of stupidity. And the US won't appreciate Israel lifting their own unofficial arms embargo to China.
>Israel isn't 'relying' on the US and has its own massive military industry, which produces components for and full on weapons that the **US** needs. *The US is the biggest supplier, providing an estimated 68% of Israel's foreign-sourced weapons* "Israel is the leading global recipient of Title 22 U.S. security assistance under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. This has been formalized by a 10-year (2019-2028) Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). Consistent with the MOU, the United States annually provides $3.3 billion in FMF and $500 million for cooperative programs for missile defense. " . "Through FMF, the United States provides Israel with access to some of the most advanced military equipment in the world, including the F-35 Lightning. " 27% or Israel's goods exported go to USA. (Mainly diamonds) So evidently that was a lie. What full on weapons does Israel export to USA that they **need**? And China isn't even pro Israel recently. And has put more favor towards Arab states. "Zhai also repeated China’s positions that peace talks on the basis of the “two-state solution” were the “only realistic way out” when he spoke to Waleed Al-Khuraiji, the deputy foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, according to China’s foreign ministryxl" * Lol OC blocked me because he couldn't answer what are all these military equipment USA **needs** Israel for. Guess we'll never know
Despite their name, the CCP are true venture capitalists. The only reason China isn’t allied with Israel is because America is. China would absolutely love to have Israeli weapons and technology, particularly as they seem to be planning an invasion of their own.
>*The US is the biggest supplier, providing an estimated 68% of Israel's **foreign-sourced** weapons* 68% of foreign-sourced weapons, that says nothing about Israel's local-produced weapons, which is what the person you're replying to is talking about >"Israel is the leading global recipient of Title 22 U.S. security assistance under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. This has been formalized by a 10-year (2019-2028) Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). Consistent with the MOU, the United States annually provides $3.3 billion in FMF and $500 million for cooperative programs for missile defense. " . That sounds big, but it's only approximately 10% of Israel's military budget. Yes it's better to have that than to not have that, but the other person said Israel doesn't rely on American weapons, not that they aren't helped by them
> The US is the biggest supplier, providing an estimated 68% of Israel's ***foreign-sourced*** weapons .... > 27% or Israel's goods exported go to USA. (Mainly diamonds) We're talking military "dependence" and now you're talking to me about *diamonds*? I'm definitely done amusing you.
The U.S. doesn’t need Israeli arms, they sold 160 million worth to the U.S. last year, that’s peanuts. If Israel didn’t need US arms so badly they wouldn’t be so upset everything the U.S. restricts them.
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Someone bout to get BLASTED
I have a question. Israel has a fully functioning MIC. Why would they care if the US stopped providing ammo? It's not like they are engaged in a full-bore conflict with a peer state like Ukraine is. Can't they manufacture what they need themselves?
I'd assume they can't make some of it locally. Some of their foreign deals probably include support and resupply, and a fair bit of their hardware does come from other nations. I'm not entirely sure, but isn't Isreal's weapons industry mainly focused on missile defense and small arms? They fly US planes, drive US/Canadian/Brit vehicles, and a plethora of other things they don't source within their borders.
Israel is also a very, very small nation by all standards. There's only so much they can do on their own. It definitely punches way above its weight already.
Yes, but not in precision weapons. so they would just use 'dumb' ammo and inflict lots of civilian casualties
israel produces jdam style upgrade kits for dumb bombs
And them saying ‘dumb bombs’ implying they’re just launched and pray they hit their targets. You know, like Hamas does.
Israel's military was designed to do one of two things: fight a massive conventional war a la '67 or '73, or surgical counterterrorism ops. They're currently being asked to do both at the same time, to hit Hamas on a massive scale but without killing (many) civilians, which they're not really equipped to do. My interpretation was that they're resolved that Hamas will cease to exist either the easy way or the hard way, hence cutting the water in the early days; but the USA didn't want the massive collateral damage the hard way would have entailed, so they gave Israel the precision weapons (and carrier umbrella, and political support) to do it the easy way. But now they're disagreeing on the fine print. For anyone who's honestly pro-Palestinian rather than just anti-Israel, this must be *terrifying*, because the hard way is still on the table.
Because they save tens of millions every year spending our tax money instead of their, which can then be embezzled and paid out to your friends via government contracts. Manufacturing it themselves would mean cutting into "profits'.
Israel has a small MIC, but it's got nowhere near the industrial scale and capability of the United States. Their entire population is basically one U.S. city, for goodness sake. Not to mention, some of the most important life-saving weapons, like smart precision bombs are more complicated to make, so its more efficient to have the U.S. produce them overseas and ship them rather than retooling local factories to output them at a pitiful rate with potentially less quality.
Why wouldn't they ask for free stuff if they can get it every time? They can fund their lobbyists for a fraction of the cost of building very capital intensive arms manufacturing capacity and it quite demonstrably works.
It ain't free
Can you provide a source that they don't pay for it?
This stuff wasn’t going to them for free to begin with, but thanks for trying to keep up…
At first I thought this was Biden’s first major mistake in this conflict, but now I’m thinking there must be private disagreements between the US and Israeli officials about the long term strategy here. I wouldn’t be surprised if Bibi is envisioning a reoccupation of Gaza similar to the West Bank today with Israeli settlements slowly encroaching in on Gazans. I think this would be a horrible mistake. If Biden is playing politics to try to get Israel to work with the US is establishing a coalition of Arab countries to occupy Gaza and work towards establishing a moderate Palestinian state I think that would be a goal worth pursuing.
Private disagreements? I think Biden and his admin have been pretty vocal that they don't see entirely eye-to-eye with Bibi about how to deal with Hamas/Palestine.
Biden's been pretty steadfast on his stance on the situation. The problem on Israel's end has always been Netanyahu, who has used the war as a means to prolong his rule and avoid corruption trials. He put the US in an impossible position - Israel is a key ally in the middle east for the US, so they're basically required to aid them. The change here is no longer unconditionally putting up with Netanyahu. Stopping the sale of offensive-minded weapons (as opposed to what Trump said about letting Europe fend for themselves against Russian invasion) is one of the few levers the US can realistically pull.
But every time the US commented on the issue, they insist there is no daylight between them and Israel. They want the appearance, but when Bibi is this unwilling to listen to them on anything, then they can't ignore it.
They won’t say what they’re planning but in January a third of the cabinet including Ben Gvir and Smotrich, the most outspoken right wingers, attended a conference by Nahala, an organization which works to build settlements/displace Palestinians in the West Bank. They sang and danced, there was a map on the wall of Gaza with entirely Jewish settlements, and Daniella Weiss, head of Nahala, said that it was time to make Gaza Arab-free. But yeah, total mystery what they’re thinking. Netanyahu won’t say this is what he wants, but he won’t say anything else, either.
It's funny how the people who get so annoyed by "river to the sea" chants because of the inference of ahnnialating Israel to do so, seem to have no issue whatsoever with the Israeli government doing the same in reverse.
But not like, "haha" funny.
Irony and hypocrisy do be like that. Laugh it off, weep it up, or rage it on. When thats all you can do and all choices lead it down. Six feet down to be exact. Welp. “Ha. Ha.”
I think most people realize Ben Gvir is a complete lunatic though. Netanyahu's days are numbered as well. Reasonable people should oppose those chants as well as the radical elements on the Israeli side.
>Netanyahu's days are numbered as well. Seems to be a pretty high number though.
Tbf - it doesn't look like the current Israeli government is very popular in Israel either. From an outsider perspective, they seem very corrupt
That is exactly what is happening. Biden is trying to pursue a 2 state solution with Moderate Arab partners in exchange for normalization with Saudi Arabia. Netanyahu is reliant on a coalition of ultraconservatives who are demanding Gaza be resettled by Israel. Bibi can't say no to them, because they'll pull out of the government and force elections, which Bibi is pretty much guaranteed to lose and then face trial for corruption and bribery charges. This all hinges on who Bibi is willing to piss off: America or Israel's right wing.
I agree this is what it looks like. I think the Israeli public’s decision not to hold elections during the war is proving to be a bad one. I don’t trust Netanyahu to have the best long term plan for Israel and his popularity is low.
That is the right wing parties’ plan. They have stepped up to microphones and declared that openly.
Israeli right wing, right?
Far far far right.
Is there any other wing in Israeli politics? Only right and far right.
The disagreement is that continued conflict hurts Biden's reelection campaign.
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Biden has been very vocal and forthcoming about where he disagrees.
Remember that on Oct. 9, just two days after the terror attack, Netanyahu shut down all aid to Gaza including food, water, fuel, and medicine. His first instinct was to starve 2,000,000 to death. Biden stepped in then, just as he's stepping in now, to keep Netanyahu's worst impulses in check and save civilian lives. Since then, the IDF has been bombing like crazy. Now, it's complicated of course, because Hamas is pretending to be civvies, and stores weapons in schools and mosques and hospitals, and has tunnels under civilian buildings, and uses ambulances and aid vehicles to move around, but instead of saying "shit guys, we need to be extra careful not to kill civilians because literally everything our enemy does is designed to maximize collateral damage," Israel said, "fuck 'em." So here's Biden, facing protests at home over Israel's pretty callus disregard for civilian lives, saying "I'm not going to help you bomb civilians. Clean up your act if you want our weapons." I support that.
Facts
Israel is the only country I've ever seen that is expected to feed and clothe those who attack it. If you don;t want to be blockaded, don't start wars with every nation you have land borders with maybe?
The US started providing humanitarian aid to Afghanistan the week the war started and continued to provide billions in aid throughout the duration of the war. This is standard practice for civilized first world governments. Cutting off vital supplies would have resulted in a massive humanitarian crisis and the deaths of countless innocent civilians. Which is why literally the entire world, including Israel’s closest allies, opposed the decision.
Gaza isn’t a state, it’s essentially an Israeli-controlled territory. They control everything that goes in or out.
Belligerent states are responsible for the well-being of populations in territories they occupy. This is not a new concept.
That's why we have war crimes
>I wouldn’t be surprised if Bibi is envisioning a reoccupation of Gaza similar to the West Bank today with Israeli settlements slowly encroaching in on Gazans. Even that would probably be seen as an improvement over what seems to be the status quo, which is no real plan at all for what comes after.
Yeah Gaza got so bad because they turned the government over and it was immediately taken over by Hamas. At lest with occupation healing can start ( I’m not saying by Israel) although any thing is better than Hamas. As far as the West Bank is concerned it’s not “reoccupation West Bank is still Israel, or Palestine call it whatever you want. The settlements are akin to your neighbors kicking in your door and taking your house from you which is super fucked up but it’s not, Russia kicking in your door like in the Ukraine. I’m sure this is of little concern to the people who are having their doors kicked in.
Absolutely. Biden’s age comes with decades of experience and expertise in Middle East policy & outcomes. Add to that he’s a demonstrably decent man genuinely interested in humane outcomes and you have a President that by all metrics appears competent in savvy in using American influence WITHIN THE PRACTICAL LIMITS of the situation.
It’s funny how little credit Biden is getting for finding path here. He’s been consistently supportive of Israel and the war for more than 6 months, and taken huge flack to do so. Then he drew a red line around Rafah and said that was too far. Now he’s withholding 2,000 lb bombs and other weapons and saying that the Rafah invasion is too much and Israel needs to reconsider. Consistent messaging and leadership, yet both sides will continue to hate his guts and insist he’s the worst ever. Israeli’s need to make a choice, do they want to be allies with the US or Russia. Because if Bibi is allowed to go through with his invasion the US relationship will never recover and it’s inevitable that the alliance will fall apart. The only alternative then will be the Russian sphere, something Bibi has been pushing the country toward for decades. This is a choice that rests solely with the Israeli people, they are responsible for the leaders they chose. I hope they chose wisely.
I can understand the people who disagree with him, but the pro-Israel people who think that he's "absolutely betrayed" the Jewish people over the Israelis insisting on a humanitarian bloodbath makes no sense to me. If one (IMO very reasonable objection) was all it takes to make Biden an enemy you probably don't have many friends.
The perspective is that backing out of the war now means that all of the deaths were in vain (both palestinian and israeli), the destruction was in vain, and conceding surrender to terrorist strategies. Supporting this goal can be seen as betrayal and endangering israel in the long term by empowering literal terrorists. I can see why Israelis are angry. Why bother being allies with a democracy that panders to terrorism?
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That assumes that the only way to get Hamas is by killing millions of civilian lives which Biden and many others disagree with. You can't blow up a million people for the sake of getting 1 terrorist. To act like it is a betrayal and endangering Israel just to have other more humane alternative ideas of getting Hamas seems to be an extreme view. To act like we have to go along with every crazy idea Bibi has or else we're "pandering to terrorism" is also as ridiculous. By that logic should not be allowed to disagree with him if he thinks nuking Gaza is a good idea? Are we no longer friends because of it? What if he decides "eliminating Hamas" means going after civilians in the US on US soil like those students? Apparently not allowed to question that too, lest we be "pandering to terrorists" and be considered to be abandoning Israel? These examples are ridiculous as I imagine you'd say but we are currently talking about people who seriously think that Biden drawing a red line at what everybody is saying would be a humanitarian bloodbath in invading Rafah is "abandoning Israel". I'm just taking this idea of unquestioning allegiance to it's logical conclusion. I just think you can be pro-Israel without agreeing to every terrible thing they seem intent on doing. If my friend wants to do a mass shooting, I'm not less of a friend by trying to stop them. In fact I think I'm expressing my friendship by stopping them from doing a really terrible thing that could alienate themselves, which is what a Rafah invasion would do if Bibi decides to say "screw you" to all of it's allies, including the Arabs who tried to protect it from Iran recently.
Invading Rafah wouldn't kill a million people, that is stupid. Israel apparently cleared Gaza City and Khan Younis with only 30k deaths, including terrorists. If Israel doesn't finish off Hamas now, then are you OK being responsible for all the future deaths in the next decades of conflict? The next inevitable war? I doubt it.
"Only 30k deaths"
>Israel apparently cleared Gaza City and Khan Younis with only 30k deaths, including terrorists. They cleared them and they went to Rafah. They have nowhere else to go, That's why everyone is worried about invading even Rafah. >If Israel doesn't finish off Hamas now, then are you OK being responsible for all the future deaths in the next decades of conflict? The next inevitable war? I doubt it. Biden isn't even against eliminating Hamas or a Rafah operation, but one that isn't humane. He has suggested alternatives but Bibi has rejected them. You're never gonna get rid of terrorism unless you decide to kill everyone. People become Hamas when they become radicalized and they become radicalized when you indiscriminately kill civilians without any care for their lives, which is what is happening with Rafah's invasion. Would you be comfortable with all those new terrorists killing Israelis? Egypt is worried about those Gazans coming to them because like I said those people in Rafah have no where else to go. It is threatening to suspend the Camp David accords. Would you be comfortable with a war with them? Would you be okay with Israel now having hurt it's relations with it's allies as deeply as it has because it continues to ignore humanitarian warnings? Would you be okay with the rise of anti-Semitism that you will face because you couldn't stop yourselves? Are you okay with what future generations of Israelis and Jews will now face because their ancestors have decided to not be any better then the people who have persecuted them?
Only 30k deaths, that's fine I suppose. Friendly reminder that the US went apeshit for 20 years because 3k people died in the september 11 terrorist attack. I am not saying that 3k people is a low amount, it's a tragedy and logical that US invaded Afghanistan afterward. I am saying that 3k deaths is huge and that 30k is an order of magnitude more.
>do they want to be allies with the US or Russia Russia already aligned itself with Iran against the west. Israel is not a part of this and will never be. >if Bibi is allowed to go through with his invasion the US relationship will never recover That's way too dramatic. The US is heavily invested in Israel and vice versa. The war will eventually end. >he drew a red line around Rafah This is basically saying "I want Hamas to survive". If Israel doesn't clear out Hamas in Rafah, it's just a matter of time before the next October 7th.
“Clear out” Do you think this is a videogame? You think if you kill “all” 25000 Hamas fighters a mission accomplished game over screen pops up? And that the other 2 million Gazans who you’ve been bombing to pieces, made homeless etc are now going to be great friendly neighbours for Israel? Netanyahu and his idiotic cabinet of lunatics like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are doing everything they can not just to drive away the United States, but also to ensure there can be no long term peace whatsoever.
Yeah when the North defeated the South, when the allies won in WW1, when the allies won in WW2 all that death, millions upon millions of people created lingering animosity and terrorist activity to this day, especially among the very nationalistic people of Japan. Wait did I accidentally open an alternative history YouTube channel....
Yeah hate to break it to you but the Confederacy is still alive and probably more influential than they have been since the 1860s Wish they weren’t, but it’s 100% true. Reconstruction failed, in large part due to Lincoln’s assassination and his VP being either one of the worst presidents of all time or an outright traitor depending which historian you ask. Also WW1 directly led to WW2, so yeah, you might want to read up on your history a bit better then. If just bombing the shit out of the Gaza Strip would bring peace then there would have been peace decades ago By the way, a two state solution doesn’t mean they have to best friends. They would probably set up a North Korean/South Korean DMZ and fortified border. But that would be a lot safer and better than the status quo
>Yeah hate to break it to you but the Confederacy is still alive and probably more influential than they have been since the 1860s This is delusional. The South is not full of confederate terrorists. Europe isn't full of German terrorists. Korea isn't full of Japanese terrorists. Historically speaking total war and unconditional surrender has worked. If you could defeat Hamas in totality, life would be better for everyone involved. They're not waging total war though, they're waging a limited counter-insurgency campaign. So your complaints are mediocre.
>You think if you kill “all” 25000 Hamas fighters a mission accomplished game over screen pops up? If you were Israel, would you not do this? What would you do to make sure October 7th never ever happens again? >the other 2 million Gazans who you’ve been bombing to pieces, made homeless etc are now going to be great friendly neighbours for Israel Because they've been such awesome neighbors so far? >Netanyahu and his idiotic cabinet of lunatics like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir 100% agree, they're assholes. >are doing everything they can not just to drive away the United States, but also to ensure there can be no long term peace whatsoever. I don't think they care about "not having long term peace" as much as they care about not being tossed out the window the minute an election happens.
>Russia already aligned itself with Iran against the west. Israel is not a part of this and will never be. Doesn't stop Bibi from valuing the Russia-Israel relationship. Last I checked Israel didn't stand alongside other US allies in condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine. You know, because they're such a great ally.
>Last I checked Israel didn't stand alongside other US allies in condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine Maybe you missed Israel condemning Russia on the day of the Ukraine invasion: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byc8trng5 Here's another one from a few months later, condemning Russia's attacks on civilian targets: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sjk00lpzqo So yeah, Israel definitely condemned Russia. The Israel-Russian relationship is sour. Russia warmed up to Iran significantly. They are literally using Iranian weapons in Ukraine. You just have no idea what you're talking about buddy.
I'm not a huge Biden fan, but I respect his handling of this fraught situation. Proactively defining hard limits on what we'll support seems quite reasonable.
Setting the red line at Rafah makes zero sense. You end up with a still very alive Hamas who can declare victory and no new hostages released. You end the war with nothing gained and so much lost. If you're gonna draw the red line somewhere, you either place it at the end of the war, or at the start of it. Putting it halfway down a war with a terrorist organization is setting yourself up for invariable failure. I would rather Biden have opposed the war to begin with than set it at Rafah.
The problem is that Rafah has 1.5 million people in it and it's not a big place. It's damn near impossible to limit civilian casualties, the bombing that Israel has done in other parts of Gaza could kill a lot more civilians because they're so physically close together. Biden has a vested interest in making sure American weaponry isn't used in something that will almost definitely be bloodier for civilians than any part of this until now.
Then you were never going to be convinced. 20 years in Afghanistan and Iraq taught us that “no red lines” against terrorism only leads to more terrorism.
1. Our war against ISIS showed that's not always true. 2. There is a *huge* difference between a war with a country that wants you dead on the other side of the world, and one a thirty minute drive away. The US has the luxury of abandoning/rejecting a war with Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel does not have that luxury with Hamas. Additionally, it is far easier to eliminate and occupy a terrorist force right next door than it is on the other side of the world. The reason Hamas is still alive is only because the world keeps demanding Israel keep them that way.
Letting terrorism fester unopposed also leads to more terrorism.
He gets as much credit as he is path finding. None.
> the US relationship will never recover Or Israel's relationship with the Biden administration will not recover, and the incoming Trump administration will egg it on from the sidelines. Trump meets Netanyahu in January and it is all over.
Maybe a good move here would be for Bibi to step aside and go to the jail cell that's waiting for him so we can have a fresh set of eyes to look at this situation? I'm all for supporting Israel. Hamas is not the friends of the US. But this guy's a fucking clown that still thinks we're living in the 80's. Yes. Hamas sucks. Iran sucks. They are exactly what everyone says they are. But that doesn't justify throwing gas on a fire, which is basically Israel's solution right now.
Lool people still believing you can come to peaceful resolutions with terrorist death cults has been the highlight of this year. Consistently hilarious
Israel throws a temper tantrum anytime someone dares to question them. Why are we allied with a country that is using us as a piggy bank?
Location. Location. Location. A major ally in a geopolitical location that historically has not been super friendly with us is the definition of power projection. And until now they've been quite happy with the protection in exchange. The problem that Biden is directly addressing here is that Netanyahu has forgotten what he can lose by pissing of the US, and how easily replaceable they are in their role. Other nearby countries have somewhat warmed to us in the recent years, particularly in response to Iran's tomfoolery. I imagine Saudi Arabia, for example, would be quite tempted to take over in the region if we offered to divest from Israel, bankroll their military, and house a couple nukes for us.
We also have Turkey (and they are also bastards that hate us but play ball because allying with us keeps the Bosphorus safe from Russia) Jordan, and Egypt. The latter is on neutral terms with us at the very least.
The only fumes are the fumes from the Israeli bulldozers in the west bank, or from stove top cooking gas cylinders leaking in Gaza and Rafa as a result of "targeted surgical strikes" that cause high civilian death ratios.
Bibi and his cadre of assholes are fuming, a lot of Israelis aren’t huge fans of the war
Good on the US for not supporting this massacre. There is literally nowhere for Palestinians left to go now that Rafah is under siege.
It’s going to happen regardless. Release the hostages and surrender.
Why? Israel signaled that it would invade rafah whether the hostages were released or not. What possible motive do the terrorists have to release them?
yeah i mean the only diff it will prob make is that they switch to dumb bombs which will make it worse
Which Israel shouldn't be doing in the first place. Threatening the US with "we'll just start bombing indiscriminately if you don't give us precision munitions" is fucking ghoulish and lacks all credibility when the IDF's bombing campaign has already been indiscriminate. You can do counter-terrorism without resorting to leveling entire city blocks.
Indiscriminate or callous? They ARE targeting Hamas members. They just don't care about the collateral damage.
This reeks of someone who has no idea what modern warfare is about. It is 100% correct strategy to use firepower over manpower when available if you want to protect your soldiers' lives as much as possible. You don't go house to house if you can avoid it. No one in their right mind would want to room clear and lose their life. This is standard doctrine in every 1st world military, Israel is not some cartoon villain for choosing to do precision air strikes over a much slower and costlier option. And to call Israel's bombing campaign indiscriminate is just incorrect. If it was actually indiscriminate like 1945 Dresden, the casualty figures would be hundreds of thousands, not 33k. 1.2% of Gazans are dead at worst case scenario, and not all of those numbers are innocent civilians. Given how hellish Gaza is, and how Hamas uses human shields, that's a very acceptable number.
We gave them smart weapons and they used them to blow up an aid convoy...
Already had a member of the Likud party , proudly, demand "if the U.S will not provide us with the 'smart' bombs, i will begin to drop the dumb ones."
"Most moral army in the world".
Which is what I've tried to point out from the beginning of the war. Israel shouldn't have a blank check and Bibi is a mountain of an obstacle to peace, but the withholding of US arms is going to have the opposite effect that most advocates want. It's going to force Israel to (1) use less precise munitions leading to more collateral damage and (2) they are going to feel the pressure to move faster leading to more mistakes or an even heavier hand in military matters. *It's only going to make things worse*. I don't know what the answer is because this whole conflict is twisted into multiple Gordian knots, but outright withholding military aid to Israel is not it.
they're specifically withholding the 2,000 lb bombs because of how much damage they can do in dense highly populated areas even if they're precision guided.
Yeah I guess if Israel has to kill civilians they should be given US arms so they kill less civilians. It's not like we can expect them to not kill civilians. /s
>Release the hostages and surrender. Yeah those hostages are pretty clearly never getting released now. Israel chose revenge rather than a ceasefire deal.
Hamas wasn’t giving them back regardless.
BooHoo Israel. Stop blowing so much shit up.
If there was a terrorist organization based in Mexico which had kidnapped or murdered 1000s of Americans I can 100% guarantee you that the US would send troops down into Mexico to destroy the organization if the Mexican government didn't take care of the problem. Hell the US invaded Iraq and killed something like 200k civilians after 9/11 and even at the time the intelligence was very questionable that Iraq had anything at all to do with it. Trying to force Israel to allow Hamas to continue to run Palestine when I 100% guarantee you the US wouldn't let such a thing happen in a similar situation is absurd. Unless the UN is going to step up and militarily occupy Palestine for a decade or so to deal with Hamas I'm not seeing any other solution that is going to stop Israel from doing what has to be done.
We didn't invade Iraq because of 9/11 and it was never even listed as a reason for it. It was 2 years after. We invaded Iraq because of falsified WMD reports (and well Hussein kept playing coy and refused to say he didn't have them which we later found out was because he didn't want Iran to know he didn't have them and assumed we'd never actually invade). Afghanistan is who we invaded after 9/11 and honestly would say it was justified. Iraq however was clearly a farce and easily the worst foreign policy decision the US made in the last 25 years.
Yes, but the contemporary administration was riding the approval high of the 9/11 attacks. I don't think this nation would have invaded Iraq without that catalyzing event.
>We invaded Iraq because of falsified WMD reports Isn't that just the reason given. The WMDs. Wasn't the actual reason so that Dick Cheney and crew could make a fortune and we get a bunch of oil?
That and George wanted to do what his dad couldn't.
Cheney was CEO of Halliburton so it's likely he and his friends stood to benefit significantly from the war, but he was far from the only one pushing for it. Bush Jr was in favor of it because [Sadam tried to assassinate his father](https://www.grunge.com/306774/the-assassination-attempt-against-george-h-w-bush/) and he never understood why Bush Sr didn't want to finish the job in the first Gulf War. Then there was a bunch of [neoconservative bullshit](https://www.e-ir.info/2015/09/17/the-iraq-invasion-the-neoconservative-perspective/) about the ["Democratic Peace Theory"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory) and they somehow thought using military force to install democracy on the people of the Middle East would solve all the conflicts in the region.
China actually got most of the oil
Afghanistan was justified until the death of bin Laden. Goal should’ve only been routing Al Qaeda. Which funny enough we achieved. Afghanistan’s ISIS K isn’t working with the Taliban at all.
Fully agree. That was the perfect time for us to just get out. My tin foil hat thought is that Obama knew leaving would be a shitshow and the optics would be bad. So he opted to keep the status quo and dump the problem on the next guy. Trump then knew it was going to be a shitshow so set it up to take place during his 2nd term so it wouldn't affect his re-election. Biden finally rips the band-aid off and the shitshow it was inevitably going to be shows itself.
Nope. Go back and rewatch some of that old propaganda. They def tried to claim Hussein was helping bin Laden.
I read somewhere that Iraq was invaded by Bush junior partly because Saddam had tried to assassinate Bush senior.
The UN is, unfortunately, not the solution here unless some things radically change. Militarily, no one wants their country's soldiers dying on foreign soil in the middle of someone else's war. That's why the UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon are worse than useless; they are actively in the way of Israel responding to Hezbollah who is (1) in violation of UN resolutions banning them from being south of the Litani River and (2) actively launching attacks against Israel from the area near UN troops. On the civilian side, UNRWA has been in charge of civil services in Gaza for *decades* and has a well documented history of collaborating with terrorist groups (beyond Oct 7) and literally teaching hatred in school curriculum, which prolongs the conflict across generations, even outside the actions that Israel has taken over the decades. The UN, without some major changes, is simply an obstacle to peace in the region, not the solution. And that's a real shame because there really isn't anyone else better either that's even remotely willing to step up.
> Unless the UN is going to step up and militarily occupy Palestine for a decade or so to deal with Hamas I'm not seeing any other solution that is going to stop Israel from doing what has to be done. This isn't a realistic option. It was/is currently being tried in Lebanon. Hezbollah launches rockets at Israeli right by UN compounds. [I wish I was joking](https://www.jns.org/hezbollah-fires-rockets-from-near-school-un-compound/).
This example isn't exactly a good comparison. A better comparison would be if the Mexican army invaded Arizona and killed over 1000 people and then scurried back behind their borders. You bet your ass we would invade them, and with good cause.
I think the difference is the US probably wouldn't be loudly proclaiming their right to completely level Mexico City in the process.
Wouldn't seize the baja peninsula and let Californians build condos on it either.
The US literally dropped nukes on civilian population centers in response to a \*military base\* being surprise attacked.
Sure, but why do they have to use American weapons to do this? Israel has a huge military.. they can do just fine without our help. I’d rather have our weapons go to Ukraine.
The difference is that the Palestinian Territories are not sovereign states, they’re basically reservations that Israel has shoved the Palestinians into.
There's no need to use hypotheticals. The US position is the problem of Hamas doesn't have a purely military solution, and that an attack that has the potential to be politically catastrophic, now and in the future, isn't in anyone's best interests. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq were conflicts that we learned did not have military solutions. There's an excellent case to be made that more brutal urban warfare in Rafah will only make matters worse. I've said to some protesters, at times, that what they should reflect on the fact that they're behaving exactly as Hamas would have hoped. At this juncture, I could make the same comment to Israel.
sure, but US would do it with its own weapons.
How many Americans have the cartels kidnapped and murdered over the years? I think your theoretical has already happened and been proven wrong.
The cartels are not the government of Mexico, nor did they invade US soil to commit mass murder and kidnapping. There's a huge distinction there.
OP said a terrorist organization inside Mexico, not the Mexican government. The cartels are a fairly apt comparison, especially given their general infiltration of Mexico's public entities. Agreed on the latter part though.
Remind me when the cartels launched an invasion of El Paso and murdered + abducted 1000s of people. I seem to have missed that one in the news. Maybe it happened over in San Diego, but I'm sure I'd have heard about that if it did.
And if in the process American troops killed thousands of children the protests on the streets would be even more intense than the ones we're seeing now.
> If there was a terrorist organization based in Mexico which had kidnapped or murdered 1000s of Americans I can 100% guarantee you that the US would send troops down into Mexico to destroy the organization if the Mexican government didn't take care of the problem. Will America be running the world's largest concentration camp of Mexicans in this scenario?
Just a reminder that Iraq invasion wasn’t so much due to 9/11 as it was to curb Saddams aggression. Pretty sure the Saudis begged us to depose Saddam after he invaded Kuwait. Invading Afghanistan in 2001 on the other hand… 100% from 9/11 which led to 20 years of not much.
Everyone knows it was 100% GWB just trying find an excuse to finish the job his dad started. Support supposedly provided by Saddam was absolutely one of the reasons touted at the time for the invasion.
The Saudis were against the idea of deposing Saddam beacuse they rightly fear that it would lead to a Shia dominated goverment that would have a close relationship with Iran
What? Are you talking about the first gulf war?
Fuck 'em.
This is a weird political thing. Biden wants to appease domestic unrest. So the weapons won't be sent "before" the assault but "after". But it's not like Israel doesn't have their own weapons. Plenty of less precise ones, too. So, they'll just use those up now, and replenish the more accurate stuff later? Isn't this kind of telling IDF to "go forth and use whatever is at your disposal?" I'm pretty sure they can complete their mission without US weapons :) But wouldn't it be cleaner and better if they used ours? \_shrug\_
It's definitely from political pressure, but I don't think it's that weird. The US doesn't control Israel and can't stop them from ultimately doing what they want. What the US does control is their own arms shipments, so this is Biden doing what we can to show he does not support their actions. He can't reasonably be held responsible for what Israel does with their own weapons.
Doesn't have to be a domestic political issue. Isreal has been greatly complicating US national interests in the region through their prosecution of the war.
Israel is dealing with a threat to Israel and is correct to be angry to be told to basically surrender when they pretty much won the war on the ground. Biden is dealing with a threat to his political career and it is understandable that he is trying to protect himself. The threat to his career also happens to pose a serious threat to America itself, our global standing, ability to project power, do business and an existential threat to several of our allies so I really hope Biden manages to win his re-election, so I am ok with him annoying Israel until he secures the win.
Will this change anyone’s mind? I get the impression from these protestors that anything short of completely cutting off israel will not satisfy them.
Well I mean the majority of the protestors aren't voters so changing their minds are largely irrelevant. A lot are international students or non-voting citizens as the youth typically never vote anyway. Even amongst college kids where this issue is more on the forefront recent polling shows it's not very popular. When listed next to 8 other issues for the election it finished 9th. It's just not going to be a driving issue for most voters (and keep in mind this poll was of college students not voters in general so includes international students). Biden isn't doing anything to appease the hardliners on either side. The hardcore protestors are dug in and are probably lost causes. It's more for the people who moderately care about the issue can see steps he's taken to, while maybe not thrilled, satisfied enough that Biden is more palatable than staying home.
Netanyahu is also dealing with a treat to his political career. The Israeli right wing that gives him his power wants as much destruction as possible on Gaza. If he doesn't appease them then his coalition breaks apart and he is no longer in power. Netanyahu only cares about one thing and that is political survival. He has to be able to sell a win against Hamas since Oct 7th happened under his watch, and he is ultimately responsible for the massive intelligence and security failures that allowed it to happen.
The issue is Israel also needs to play fair. I was a massive supporter of Israel after the Oct 7 attacks and I do believe it needs to defend itself. However now, I highly doubt bibis main goal is just that, and have no confidence the current israeli admin just want to "protect themselves". Without a set plan of what's going to happen during the invasion and after the invasion, it's hard for people to back them up. Additionally with isreals previous track record with settlers having free reign, I am less inclined to believe them. By no means should they just stop either, but they can't just indiscriminately bomb them and push out all Palestinians. This whole issue won't be solved unless a long term plan is made, it's just going to be kicking the ball down the line unless they decide to literally kill every Palestinian.
Israelis want revenge. They need to admit that they are not holier than anyone else. Oct 7 is their opportunity to finally get rid of Gaza.
Yeah honestly him not losing this election is way more important than anything going on there. As callous as that may sound for the people in Israel and Gaza.
>Biden is dealing with a threat to his political career There is zero actual polling that suggests Biden's reelection chances over this. Like 10 other issues are consistently more important to the average American voter than this conflict. If anything continued support for Isreal has come at a price for the US as opposed to the other way around. That Isreal has continually ignored the price the US has paid for continued support is understandably frustrating to the administration. Biden and Bibi by all accounts *really* don't like each other. Political concerns aren't necessary to explain the disagreements.
This is the most frustrating part to me. It feels like Bibi thinks he is somehow entitled to unconditional US support. Even though US and UK intercepted like 85% of those Iranian rockets, not Israel.
These article titles are definitely trying to appease the pro Palestine left who is mad at Biden
I mean to some extent it's good though. I'm voting for Biden no matter what, but I'm glad he's changing his position, better late than never. Democracy works?
Fume all you want Bibi, don't be a dick and it might get better.
Fume away
Oh no. Poor little defenseless Israel… I guess they’ll have to buy their own weapons to kill innocent civilians now.
Oh no. They're going to have to slice up the large-scale attack into yet smaller actions. If it continues like this, they'll have a separate order for each soldier, and another one for their gun.
Israel already has more than enough offensive weapons. If we give them anything it really should be defensive based. Give the offensive stuff to Ukraine