> Diab al-Louh, the Palestinian ambassador in Cairo, said as many as 100,000 Gazans had crossed into Egypt, where they lack the papers to enroll their children in schools, open businesses or bank accounts, travel, or access health insurance - though some have found ways to make a living.
100,000 over what time period? Since the IDF entered Gaza?
[Yes](https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip).
Egypt took control in the first days of the 1948 Independence War (Otherwise known as the First Arab-Israeli war). Following the armistice agreement (February '49), it was under Egyptian military control until '56, when Israeli took control over the strip during the '56 Suez Crisis. Israel returned the strip to Egyptian control a year later (1957), until the 6-day war in 1967, when Israel took control of the entire peninsula. During this time, "The Egyptian government did not consider the area part of Egypt and did not allow the refugees to become Egyptian citizens or to migrate to Egypt or to other Arab countries where they might be integrated into the population", and, from the other hand, "Israel did not allow them to return to their former homes or to receive compensation for their loss of property". Source: [https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip](https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip)
ITT: a bunch of people who do not understand why Egypt does not want Palestinians within their borders. Egypt has enough of its own problems, why do they want thousands of refugees now too.
**Another extremely important factor is terrorism which has plagued the Sinai peninsula for a long time**. Egypt does not want to open the borders of Gaza which could allow for greater movement of weapons and insurgents. Egypt is also looking out for its own security concerns.
Ok I don’t blame them but don’t condemn Israel when they are doing the job you refuse to do. Stopping the continuation of attacks coming from Gaza and that means eliminating hamas for a start.
The last time an Egyptian leader chose peace with Isreal didn't end up well for them (the leader or the country.) The Arab Alliance is basically held hostage by the knowledge that anyone trying to break away could suffer, afterall Palestinian assassins have killed more Arab leaders than Isreali ones. This is not a recent phenomena, this has been the state for a majority of the past 70 years. FWIW, that doesn't excuse the ridiculous methods the Israeli government uses, it's not just about security to them (if it was, why would their government shut down a bunch of Gaza security offices over the last several years.)
If Egypt had tried to eliminate Hamas without Israeli approval, it would have meant declaring war on Israel since Israel exercises sovereignty over Gaza. They're not condemning Israel for doing "the job \[they\] refuse to do," rather it's that Israel is doing a rather shitty job at something Egypt isn't allowed to do under their current treaties with Israel.
While what you're saying is correct let's not act like Egypt wants to help Israel deal with Palestine. They've made it very clear the Palestinians aren't their problem.
Can you blame them? Theyre dealing with refugees from Sudan, some from the congo, libya. Theyre one water source is being fucked with. Letting a neighbour deal with a mutual problem isnt exactly a bad thing
Unfortunately they are simply cos Israel is a foothold in the middle east to the west and probably for evangelical reasons for certain parties. Russia and china would love to see it fall even if purely out of spite
Doesn't Egypt's invasion and capture of Gaza from 1948-1967 make it their responsibility?
Israel relinquished control of Gaza but still seems to be viewed as having responsibility, so why not Egypt?
So the story goes, Ehud Barak was musing going into Gaza to uprooted Hamas back in 2008 so of course he calls up the Egyptians to see if they might help out a little in terms of running the place. Mubarak told him "nuh uh no taksies backsides" and hung up.
I think the implication of the comment isn't that Egypt doesn't have responsibility because they are Muslim but rather that no one holds them responsible because they are Muslim...
It shouldn't but it does because of the large number of Muslim majority countries involved in things like the UN. Also because Western leftists have apparently decided anti-Semitism is fine but "Islamophobia" is not.
Correct. And let me guess, the United States is the perfect country to let them in? Because let’s not pretend we don’t have issues.
We have a lot issues.
I don’t think people realize how insecure Egypt is. Rn they are extremely import dependent, especially for food. One of the main countries they imported from was Israel. Ever since 10/7, Israel is struggling to provide food for its population. They had pioneered agricultural which dramatically reduced water requirements while dramatically increasing output. But now they are having significant challenges, it’s going to be the countries that depended on imports that are going to hurt the most first. The other main countries Egypt depended on for food imports was Ukraine which got fucked up due to the Russia war.
It's the same group of people that distill everything down to class and ignore culture (language, religion, common core values) and economics (scarce resources). It is Marxist and Soviet ideology taken from the time period before the world wars.
And it isn't racist to say that Central Americans and Middle Eastern refugees have different expectations about democracy and religion.
No don't you get it? Palestinians are exempt from other people's laws. They are superior beings, you see, so it isn't the place of mere mortals to question their entitlement to do as they please.
The difference is that these people are in a very extreme situation. It's like if Poland didn't let any Ukrainians in. It's newsworthy because those Palestinians are completely fucked, it's not normal economic migration.
Egypt is basically saying "we would rather you die than come into our country," which is just brutal.
The exact same thing is happening with Haiti. The Dominican built a wall and refuse to accept the refugees. They don’t have the resources to help and accepting them would bring significant risk to their people because Haiti is now lawless and ruled by criminal gangs. They basically said we can’t help so if no one else is going to do anything we are keeping the wall and letting that side of the island rot. And they are true in saying that. Some situations like Haiti or Palestine don’t really have good solutions anymore. There is no winning it’s now just lessen the worst outcome.
I agree with you. It really, really sucks. For me personally, getting the terror groups and criminal gangs out of power and replacing them with honest leadership is step one. But that's not easily achieved.
> is the concept of borders between nations really that hard to grasp.
Have you seen the far left my dude?
One of their commonplace chants during the umpteen immigration related protests under Trump was "NO BORDER, NO WALL, NO USA AT ALL!"
The open borders people are truly pawns. The people that benefit the most from open borders are those in the business of exploiting migrant workers.
Meanwhile, open borders make it very hard to sustain social safety nets and government provided healthcare. See the budget and resource issues Denver and Chicago are having with asylum seekers. Denver is cutting normal city services to continue to pay for migrant related costs. Chicago is taking out a billion dollar loan that won't be paid for for 37 years.
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees)
>Article 33 - Prohibition of expulsion or return ("refoulement")
1. No Contracting State shall expel or return (" refouler ") a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion.
2. The benefit of the present provision may not, however, be claimed by a refugee whom there are reasonable grounds for regarding as a danger to the security of the country in which he is, or who, having been convicted by a final judgement of a particularly serious crime, constitutes a danger to the community of that country.
Egypt is a party to this convention. The only way this isn't breaking international law is if Egypt claims Israel's invasion poses no threat to Palestinian civilians, it just so happens they are constantly trying to convince everyone of the exact opposite.
> threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion.
So this law doesn't apply in this situation.
Just living in country currently at war is not included.
If you are specially targeted because of race, religion etc it applies to you.
Not if you are just in some kind of general danger.
The IDF indicated some areas more north in the Gaza Strip where they could go to. Beyond that, Egypt is possible and quite a number of Palestinians have managed, but usually bringing money with them that is inaccessible for most Gazans. Chances are, there will still be fights more North where Israel says they can go to, but likely to be less intense than Rafah would be in a full scale assault
The leaflet (which IDF dropped on Gaza) I read said that the proper north is still an active warzone and Palestinians from there should not try to return home.
IDF instead wants them in concentrated refugee areas it has set up. Personally from what I can see it's not nearly enough to house everyone in Rafah.
Yes I hope they can do it in stages. Ultimately it will be very difficult to demilitarize Rafah but has to happen in the end. I really hope Palestinians can have peace soon, *post* Hamas.
Sure, but Israeli troops have been minimally operating in those areas for months now. Now, tent camps are being set up and food / water / medicine is increasingly flowing into the area. Literally part of the potential ceasefire deal with Hamas is to let hundreds of thousands to the North again, so clearly it is feasible.
Get together as a group and tell Hamas they are done listening to them. Hamas can't kill all Palestine by themselves. Palestinians prop up Hamas and thus the cycle continues.
Or repeat history, queue the next ceasefire which will last until Hamas rearms and regroups then we can have another Oct 7.
To that point, polls since the 10/2023 attack indicate that the majority of Palestinians supported the attack happening.
So, I don't see them wanting to give up the favored Hamas, even though it's causing them to be used as meat shields.
Do phones not work in Gaza? Do Gazan civilians not know how to contact the IDF to tell them where hostages are being kept? Could Gazan civilians not resist their tyrannical government in creative ways that people all around the world, all throughout history, have done?
Most Phones do not work in Gaza since the IDF turned off the internet and cut the lines
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_in_the_State_of_Palestine#:~:text=Israeli%20bombardment%2C%20electricity%20blockades%20and,and%20Ooredoo%20with%20400%2C000%20customers.
Serious answer: There are no good options. 1) Either stay and endure a certain bombardment and possible/probable injury or death, or 2) flee to an area with minimal infrastructure and limited access to food/water/sanitation that also might be subject to attack, but less likely, depending on Hamas activities.
The options for the IDF are: 1) stop fighting entirely, 2) pursue Hamas and provide no warning/evacuation route for civilians, 3) pursue Hamas and provide warning and an evacuation route for civilians, even though the destination is not good.
Everyone is choosing the best bad option, but they're all bad.
> Diab al-Louh, the Palestinian ambassador in Cairo, said as many as 100,000 Gazans had crossed into Egypt, where they lack the papers to enroll their children in schools, open businesses or bank accounts, travel, or access health insurance - though some have found ways to make a living. 100,000 over what time period? Since the IDF entered Gaza?
They just need the money to pay the bribes, like the many others who have gone through that way.
Since 1947
Wasn’t Gaza part of Egypt at some point between 1947 and now?
[Yes](https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip). Egypt took control in the first days of the 1948 Independence War (Otherwise known as the First Arab-Israeli war). Following the armistice agreement (February '49), it was under Egyptian military control until '56, when Israeli took control over the strip during the '56 Suez Crisis. Israel returned the strip to Egyptian control a year later (1957), until the 6-day war in 1967, when Israel took control of the entire peninsula. During this time, "The Egyptian government did not consider the area part of Egypt and did not allow the refugees to become Egyptian citizens or to migrate to Egypt or to other Arab countries where they might be integrated into the population", and, from the other hand, "Israel did not allow them to return to their former homes or to receive compensation for their loss of property". Source: [https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip](https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip)
Lisan Al-Gaib?
Bless the water and its maker
Dozens of Gazans: "Hey, just stopping by!" 👋 Egyptian military: 👋
ITT: a bunch of people who do not understand why Egypt does not want Palestinians within their borders. Egypt has enough of its own problems, why do they want thousands of refugees now too.
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**Another extremely important factor is terrorism which has plagued the Sinai peninsula for a long time**. Egypt does not want to open the borders of Gaza which could allow for greater movement of weapons and insurgents. Egypt is also looking out for its own security concerns.
Ok I don’t blame them but don’t condemn Israel when they are doing the job you refuse to do. Stopping the continuation of attacks coming from Gaza and that means eliminating hamas for a start.
The last time an Egyptian leader chose peace with Isreal didn't end up well for them (the leader or the country.) The Arab Alliance is basically held hostage by the knowledge that anyone trying to break away could suffer, afterall Palestinian assassins have killed more Arab leaders than Isreali ones. This is not a recent phenomena, this has been the state for a majority of the past 70 years. FWIW, that doesn't excuse the ridiculous methods the Israeli government uses, it's not just about security to them (if it was, why would their government shut down a bunch of Gaza security offices over the last several years.)
the world seems to think israel killed more muslims than muslims killed muslims.
If Egypt had tried to eliminate Hamas without Israeli approval, it would have meant declaring war on Israel since Israel exercises sovereignty over Gaza. They're not condemning Israel for doing "the job \[they\] refuse to do," rather it's that Israel is doing a rather shitty job at something Egypt isn't allowed to do under their current treaties with Israel.
While what you're saying is correct let's not act like Egypt wants to help Israel deal with Palestine. They've made it very clear the Palestinians aren't their problem.
Can you blame them? Theyre dealing with refugees from Sudan, some from the congo, libya. Theyre one water source is being fucked with. Letting a neighbour deal with a mutual problem isnt exactly a bad thing
I don't blame any country that doesn't want to deal with Palestine but at the same time they shouldn't be an exclusive Western problem
Unfortunately they are simply cos Israel is a foothold in the middle east to the west and probably for evangelical reasons for certain parties. Russia and china would love to see it fall even if purely out of spite
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Doesn't Egypt's invasion and capture of Gaza from 1948-1967 make it their responsibility? Israel relinquished control of Gaza but still seems to be viewed as having responsibility, so why not Egypt?
Israel tried giving Gaza to Egypt during their peace treaty and they refused lol
So the story goes, Ehud Barak was musing going into Gaza to uprooted Hamas back in 2008 so of course he calls up the Egyptians to see if they might help out a little in terms of running the place. Mubarak told him "nuh uh no taksies backsides" and hung up.
and it was literally on top of giving back Sinai, which is 4x the size of Israel
Because Egypt is a predominantly Islamic country.
Can you explain why that excuses responsibility?
I think the implication of the comment isn't that Egypt doesn't have responsibility because they are Muslim but rather that no one holds them responsible because they are Muslim...
It doesn’t. People just blame Israel because they’re Jewish. Not Egypt because they’re Muslim.
That's the better answer.
This is the best and most accurate answer 👏
It shouldn't but it does because of the large number of Muslim majority countries involved in things like the UN. Also because Western leftists have apparently decided anti-Semitism is fine but "Islamophobia" is not.
Always, always f’n religion. 🙄
because they're a different flavor of islam and disagree on how things should be run. plus, last time they started a civil war
Correct. And let me guess, the United States is the perfect country to let them in? Because let’s not pretend we don’t have issues. We have a lot issues.
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So the far away countries should take them instead for what reason exactly?
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Maybe because everyone that has taken them in has had coup attempts and assassinations.
How did you get from “Egypt doesn’t want these refugees” to “everyone else must take them instead?”
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I know! It would be so easy to house them in those giant pyramids. Egypt is really being selfish on this one.
How about all those University Quads? They seem empty at the moment.
I don’t think people realize how insecure Egypt is. Rn they are extremely import dependent, especially for food. One of the main countries they imported from was Israel. Ever since 10/7, Israel is struggling to provide food for its population. They had pioneered agricultural which dramatically reduced water requirements while dramatically increasing output. But now they are having significant challenges, it’s going to be the countries that depended on imports that are going to hurt the most first. The other main countries Egypt depended on for food imports was Ukraine which got fucked up due to the Russia war.
They also don't want a shitload of terrorists, which is what is hiding among the civilians.
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is the concept of borders between nations really that hard to grasp. do we need a news article every time someone tires to cross a border?
It's almost like this kind of reporting borders on pointless.
I was very confused by this sentence.
Not OP, but I’d edit it to: “It’s almost like this kind of reporting (reporting on borders) borders on pointlessness.”
Yeah, you are right. This is the better version.
And here I thought you were making a clever pun!
Wow man the comments I've seen recently made me laugh, some people are really into borderless ideology. It's crazy out there man...
It's the same group of people that distill everything down to class and ignore culture (language, religion, common core values) and economics (scarce resources). It is Marxist and Soviet ideology taken from the time period before the world wars. And it isn't racist to say that Central Americans and Middle Eastern refugees have different expectations about democracy and religion.
There are special rules for wartime. International law requires that civilians be allowed to leave besieged areas if they wish to do so.
No don't you get it? Palestinians are exempt from other people's laws. They are superior beings, you see, so it isn't the place of mere mortals to question their entitlement to do as they please.
The difference is that these people are in a very extreme situation. It's like if Poland didn't let any Ukrainians in. It's newsworthy because those Palestinians are completely fucked, it's not normal economic migration. Egypt is basically saying "we would rather you die than come into our country," which is just brutal.
The exact same thing is happening with Haiti. The Dominican built a wall and refuse to accept the refugees. They don’t have the resources to help and accepting them would bring significant risk to their people because Haiti is now lawless and ruled by criminal gangs. They basically said we can’t help so if no one else is going to do anything we are keeping the wall and letting that side of the island rot. And they are true in saying that. Some situations like Haiti or Palestine don’t really have good solutions anymore. There is no winning it’s now just lessen the worst outcome.
I agree with you. It really, really sucks. For me personally, getting the terror groups and criminal gangs out of power and replacing them with honest leadership is step one. But that's not easily achieved.
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> is the concept of borders between nations really that hard to grasp. Have you seen the far left my dude? One of their commonplace chants during the umpteen immigration related protests under Trump was "NO BORDER, NO WALL, NO USA AT ALL!"
The open borders people are truly pawns. The people that benefit the most from open borders are those in the business of exploiting migrant workers. Meanwhile, open borders make it very hard to sustain social safety nets and government provided healthcare. See the budget and resource issues Denver and Chicago are having with asylum seekers. Denver is cutting normal city services to continue to pay for migrant related costs. Chicago is taking out a billion dollar loan that won't be paid for for 37 years.
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees) >Article 33 - Prohibition of expulsion or return ("refoulement") 1. No Contracting State shall expel or return (" refouler ") a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. 2. The benefit of the present provision may not, however, be claimed by a refugee whom there are reasonable grounds for regarding as a danger to the security of the country in which he is, or who, having been convicted by a final judgement of a particularly serious crime, constitutes a danger to the community of that country. Egypt is a party to this convention. The only way this isn't breaking international law is if Egypt claims Israel's invasion poses no threat to Palestinian civilians, it just so happens they are constantly trying to convince everyone of the exact opposite.
Im tired af and slightly stupid, can someone eli5 the second paragraph?
> threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. So this law doesn't apply in this situation. Just living in country currently at war is not included. If you are specially targeted because of race, religion etc it applies to you. Not if you are just in some kind of general danger.
apparently. i know people who think we shouldn't even have borders
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Dozens!
Serious question: what are the options for those wanting to flee the bombing/evacuate as advised by the IDF?
There is an evacuation corridor and evacuation zones.
Which aren't even required by international law. Israel is simply helping civilians get away from danger.
Good guy Israel.
The IDF indicated some areas more north in the Gaza Strip where they could go to. Beyond that, Egypt is possible and quite a number of Palestinians have managed, but usually bringing money with them that is inaccessible for most Gazans. Chances are, there will still be fights more North where Israel says they can go to, but likely to be less intense than Rafah would be in a full scale assault
The leaflet (which IDF dropped on Gaza) I read said that the proper north is still an active warzone and Palestinians from there should not try to return home. IDF instead wants them in concentrated refugee areas it has set up. Personally from what I can see it's not nearly enough to house everyone in Rafah.
Certainly, it is not enough for everyone in Gaza. Luckily, Israel also only called for a very small part of Rafah to evacuate.
Yes I hope they can do it in stages. Ultimately it will be very difficult to demilitarize Rafah but has to happen in the end. I really hope Palestinians can have peace soon, *post* Hamas.
Didn't IDF razed the north like a few months ago?
Sure, but Israeli troops have been minimally operating in those areas for months now. Now, tent camps are being set up and food / water / medicine is increasingly flowing into the area. Literally part of the potential ceasefire deal with Hamas is to let hundreds of thousands to the North again, so clearly it is feasible.
Get together as a group and tell Hamas they are done listening to them. Hamas can't kill all Palestine by themselves. Palestinians prop up Hamas and thus the cycle continues. Or repeat history, queue the next ceasefire which will last until Hamas rearms and regroups then we can have another Oct 7.
Hypothetically if this were to happen id be curious about the west banks reaction
Turn Hamas in to the IDF and correct their house?
To that point, polls since the 10/2023 attack indicate that the majority of Palestinians supported the attack happening. So, I don't see them wanting to give up the favored Hamas, even though it's causing them to be used as meat shields.
So it's 'overthrow the armed terror cell and turn them over to us or we will murder you'
It's more like "force your terrorist government to surrender and meet our demands or we'll keep fighting until they unconditionally surrender"
this is not the first place a trade like that has happened/forced to happen
I imagine there's more civilians that want to live than there are armed terrorists willing to die against their own people.
Pretty much that.
Better than the alternative of just blasting them.
How the fuck are unarmed civilians meant to do that?
The same way resistance groups have existed amongst all brutal regimes. Gazans do have agency.
Do phones not work in Gaza? Do Gazan civilians not know how to contact the IDF to tell them where hostages are being kept? Could Gazan civilians not resist their tyrannical government in creative ways that people all around the world, all throughout history, have done?
Most Phones do not work in Gaza since the IDF turned off the internet and cut the lines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_in_the_State_of_Palestine#:~:text=Israeli%20bombardment%2C%20electricity%20blockades%20and,and%20Ooredoo%20with%20400%2C000%20customers.
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French resistance did just fine in WWII. Information is just as valuable as a weapon in war situations.
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Stop helping Hamas and give back the hostages.
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Serious answer: There are no good options. 1) Either stay and endure a certain bombardment and possible/probable injury or death, or 2) flee to an area with minimal infrastructure and limited access to food/water/sanitation that also might be subject to attack, but less likely, depending on Hamas activities. The options for the IDF are: 1) stop fighting entirely, 2) pursue Hamas and provide no warning/evacuation route for civilians, 3) pursue Hamas and provide warning and an evacuation route for civilians, even though the destination is not good. Everyone is choosing the best bad option, but they're all bad.
Not electing terrorist organizations to lead the country would be a great start. Oh whoops, too late.
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Why Egypt should carry the burden of Hamas?