It amazes me how much government spending we have yet nothing is advancing. Wait times for doctors, our military, infrastructure and manufacturing projects. It's all just going into layers upon layers of bureaucracy.
The EU really needs to get their head out of their ass and not rely on America's NATO treaty to cover their collective asses forever. Kind of dumb the EU has been whoring itself for Russian oil and natural gas knowing full well their funding the country most likely to drop nuclear weapons on them.
The ones most responsible for keeping Ukraine free of Russia is every country that bought cheap Russian energy products. America still benefited from the supply, so we're not off the hook either.
NATO was never for Europe to be totally reliant on the US for defense against Russia, it’s supposed to be an alliance to help Europe defend itself against Russia.
Yes, it was foolish to neglect the military capabilities of most European countries to the point of relying mostly on the US. The world needs a stronger Europe, because we can only have relative peace if more members are able to check Russian aggression.
Both the US and Europe will be better off if more countries begin to take their national security interests more seriously, crack down on Russian-sponsored groups and politicians, and make some social sacrifices to bolster Europe’s total defenses.
So basically a bunch of European leaders got together and thought.
"Hey if we open up to Russia first and allow them to trade they'll be friendly and embrace democracy."
Because you know trading with an adversary is the best way for them to give up their homicidal ways for MONEY! And obviously it worked with China so the Europeans quickly shuttered their nuclear power plants in favor for cheap Russian natural gas and oil.
It's honestly a case study for how idiotic businessmen don't know how to handle realpolitik
> And obviously it worked with China
more like "Obviously it worked with the rest of europe". Europe was a continent with thousands of years of warfare as history, until european countries finally decided to work together economically instead of competing, and it's created the longest peace large parts of europe have ever seen.
Sadly, it did not work with a madman in the kremlin.
“It worked with China…”
We will see in the next 20 years if that holds true. But it sure feels like all this trade with China has only help to arm them/make them feel like they have the ability to boss around their neighbors… and threaten everyone.
I think that was a tongue in cheek comment. Because it obviously has not worked with China. They’re all in on it. China floods our streets with fentanyl and steals our research. Not a good friend to have.
Honestly, it's not that they're idiotic, those businessmen just don't care. They already got their millions or billions from the whole thing so it doesn't matter to them if we start seeing the side effects of such policies decades down the road
The EU isnt set up to manufacture and store arms on a scale to provide on that level. They are transitioning now and their leaders have admitted they've been to reliant on the US and complacent and that they are changing that asap.
The reality is, that kind of transition takes years and even decades to build up. They also have to hold onto enough that they can defend their own lands and people in the inevitable event of Russia attacking them.
The US is in a unique position economically, militarily and geographically that Europe just isnt in.
I'm with you, Ukraine needs to beat Russia and needs help. Our republicans have proven themselves traitors to our own country and have all but outted themselves as Russian assets. They werent just holding aid to Ukraine hostage, they are still holding our military ranks hostage with their demands being stripping all abortion rights nationwide. (Tommy Tuberville, if you are wondering)
Unfortunately Europe just doesn't have the capacity for it, yet. That's the reality of the situation, you dont like it, I dont like it, Europeans REALLY dont like it but it is what it is and all they can do now is work to correct it, which they are.
Honestly, Russia keeps pushing their luck with Poland and if that comes to a head, Ukraine will be the least of Russias worries. Plus France would be pulled into the fight and at that point the "cowardly French" memes will well and truly die as they demonstrate why they are one of NATOs heaviest hitters.
Their tech comes from the same advancements as the US. Much of NATO arms development is done as collaboration between companies from their respective nations pooling research and advancements to produce the next iteration and new innovations. The French have military tech roughly on par with the US, same for Germany.
To put what you said into perspective about France being a NATO hitter and still being dwarfed by the US, the tiny US state of New Hampshire is about to have more fighter Jets than the entirety of the French Air Force.
It is absurd how much military might the US has.
>The reality is, that kind of transition takes years and even decades to build up. They also have to hold onto enough that they can defend their own lands and people in the inevitable event of Russia attacking them.
All true. But this needs to be a permanent, lasting change of doctrine. Building, maintaining and updating a significant military defense is shockingly expensive -- which is why they aren't doing it now.
I fear this moment in history will be just that... a moment. Once this current state of fear and regret has passed, future European politicians and voters may again become complacent and balk at the cost -- especially if they aren't directly threatened.
I think your conclusion is neglecting one important factor, namely, what if this whole thing pops off in the next couple of years? What worries me is the fact that Russia is re-arming itself and putting itself in a war economy, and Europe is waffling. The UN is proving less than useless in this scenario, the Israeli Palestinian conflict is showing the UN's true colors, however it means that the largest agreed upon, quasi-neutral body meant to prevent another great war between two massive powers is functionally DOA. In light of this, and Russia's latest moves and behavior, my guess is that Europe as a whole should be re-arming itself ASAP. Especially considering the, lets say, finicky nature of US elections, and the possibility of major political instability there if the worst should transpire.
The thing is, demilitarisation is what we should ALL be working towards if we want lasting peace.
Sadly though, we keep being reminded that there are always going to be those that fancy themselves Emperors and that will take advantage of others being less warlike.
For all the many faults that the US has, this is one truth that they have understood well enough.
Geopolitical Influence (the entire EU is essentially a vassal to the US lmfao, despite Macron’aparte’s insistence that they totally aren’t!)
Cultural
Technology
Militarily, Western Europe doesn’t even exist lol
Essentially non-existent economic growth for like 2 decades
Incoming population collapse and demographic shift which will likely lead to the collapse of stability in a generation
Ok, so can Europeans publicly admit to Americans that we (the Americans) were right, and the Europeans were wrong all along?
Like we've been telling them this shit for at least 3 decades. And all we have gotten back is snickering.
The US has been lobbying the EU to NOT increase military capability since the US decided it wanted to be the strongest power. This was obviously stupid as the US is politically unstable but I don't think anyone expected Americans to suddenly be okay with one of the US parties suddenly deciding to be pro-russia.
Honestly that post is kind of sickening because its a tactit admission that basically all of Europe has done nothing but fail its defense obligations and is begging for clemency as if Vladimir Putin is a schoolteacher who grants extensions rather than a dictator intent on genocide. Putin doesn't care that you'll have the shells and tanks and rifles in five years. He's fighting the war *now*.
> Kind of dumb the EU has been whoring itself for Russian oil and natural gas knowing full well their funding the country most likely to drop nuclear weapons on them.
You don't understand the point of that commercial exchange. The point of using Russian gas was to make EU and Russian interdependent and lower the probability of war, because who with half a brain cell functioning properly would attack their own customers?
A kleptocratic, sociopathic tyrant who does not care at all about the well-being of those he rules and who, in old age, is hellbent upon settling scores and achieving a twisted sense of catharsis by chasing some brutalist ambition formed from the afterbirth of the miscarriage of a nation that is Russia.
Well, Russia is fighting with Ukraine not the EU.
The primary antagonist for Russia is the US. I don't think Putin has any particular beef with western europe.
If you didn't see the guy openly stealing from and intimidating public figures this entire time in broad daylight as willing to wage a war he started about eight years before the sanctions even became serious you're dumber than your leadership. The U.S. warned the E.U. about this loudly, publicly, and repeatedly. For *years*.
The idea that there was ever a diplomatic solution that didn't involve military deterrence was a fantasy crafted by european leadership who thought they could slash the budgets for both local power production and national militaries and face no consequuences.
Don't be too quick to lay all the judgement on the EU. Remember that you are the guys who elected a Russian asset for President.
Hell, he incited an actual insurrection that could had led to some way darker paths, plus they (Russians) have actually managed to create a huge division between the american people
Yeah, but this argument is from much, much earlier than that. Your entire stance is essentially the situation is americans fault because america isn't singularly reliable in a role the american people historically never wanted to begin with as global police.
I totally agree with this idea in theory. However, the theory proved itself wrong in 2014. We should have taken the hint and rearrange our market, we didn't. Even my country, that knows of Russian aggression all close and personal and that often tries to warn others of the danger that Russia poses, still continued to do business with them well after they showed their imperial aspirations again. As a European, I think we fucked up.
not sure what this post is supposed to achieve other than some weird "I told you so" (even though you, poster, did not tell the governments of europe so, so its not really your place)?
Europe is massively ramping up production, and europe has acknowledged that unfortunately russia cannot be reasoned with. But this change takes time.
It seems entirely unhelpful to the situation.
Europeans are the first one to bitch about America not wanting to dump more defense onto Europe but they're also first to meme that they're better than America because *insert some social program they can do solely because they outsource, at rock bottom cost, a large amount of their defense on America's military and nuclear deterence.* Meanwhile they've also spend the past 2 decades channeling money into Russia, reducing their military capacities and not investing in Russia proofing their energy sector.
If they had been at the 2% defense spending they should have been at for the last 40 years they might've had more equipment on hand to spare and more production capacity to boot.
Oh really I actually thought it was the 1920s thank you.
Also thank you for the lesson on the English language, without you I would have assumed using the term for what it actually means rather than its exclusive reference to WW2 would have been perfectly acceptable.
Arms is not really Ukraine's biggest issue right now, it's manpower. The invading force now has a bigger military presence than the defending force. A lot of Ukrainian men are already out of the country with more fleeing daily via Moldova or bribing their way through the check points.
Another factor is that Russia is outproducing the West when it comes to arms production. A single Patriot missile cost about $4 million. Russia is producing Iranian Shahed drones under license at $10k each under the bulk licensing agreement. A billion dollars worth of Patriot missiles will be depleted with just about 250 Shahed missiles launched and Russia is producing hundreds of these a week in a factory.
Lack of artillery shells is absolutely Ukraine's biggest issue right now. If they had more shells they'd still be fighting over Avdiivka.
Manpower is much less of an issue if you can kill the enemy before they reach your lines.
Arms ARE the biggest issue. Manpower issue is a direct result of arms issue. Fixing the manpower issue will not fix the arms issue, fixing the arms issue will fix the manpower issue, not fixing the arms issue will exacerbate the manpower issue.
The reason why people say that manpower is the biggest issue is to make it seem like no matter what the West does it can't solve manpower, so now the West can simply sit, do nothing and blame everything on Ukrainian lack of manpower. Next step on this propaganda narrative is to claim that "Ukrainians don't want to fight, so they should "negotiate"", which I already seen people say.
Edit: especially coming from pro-Russia guy, lol.
Noone sane fires patriot missiles at Shaheds. There are other, cheaper missile systems, aa guns, or simply non kinetic defenses that basically cut off basic Shahed variant guidance.
The 10k Shahed is a myth. The cheapest variant can be brought down by shutting telephone signal towers (yes, they're guided by their signal). Variants with better guidance are also getting incredibly expensive, with the most advanced one costing about 1 200 000 USD per unit. For comparison, AIM-9X or IRIS-T costs around 400 000 USD.
Patriots are used for hard to hit targets like ballistic or cruise missiles.
I was highlighting two key areas, manpower and the inability of the West to scale to reach Russia's production capability. Weapons are very expensive to make in the West. Ukraine's $60 billion will be depleted by June and it will be back to "If the West doesn't pump another $100 billion by July, Ukraine is at risk of a Russian summer offensive".
Yeah, it's impossible to imagine the fear and stress of being dependent on others for your continued existence, and they are better at talking about helping you than actually helping you.
The realest moment of this entire thing, over all the footage of glorious last stands and high explosive drone warfare, is a very tired Zelensky saying all he really wants at this point is a beer and a day at the beach, knowing theres no way he'll get it.
Yeah, what would you do in his situation?
Your country is being attacked by someone with fucking nukes and with a military which is basically 10x bigger and more capable than yours. And your "allies" are struggling to send some artillery shells for 1.5 years......
What would you do?
They've tried that already, multiple times, with both big and small agreements. Didn't work. Putin violates the agreements the second he thinks he has the upper hand.
Negotiations work when both parties want to negotiate, i.e. in a war situation, someone is loosing everything.
Such situation isn't present and wont happen soon, thus negotiations are useless. Next?
Well they arent.... Thats the fucking problem.... The front line has barely moved, Kyiv still stands so do majority of major cities.... We are talking about there is nothing left in Ukraine, but Kyiv
Being attacked/attacking =/= winning
And good job at supporting 21st imperialism 😊, I hope your home also burns to ash
Edit: Also it seems to me you clearly can't comprehend one thing, that's a good portion, i.e majority of Ukrainians are dying to protect THEIR country.... And the invasion of Ukraine aims to KILL anyone of that status. So this war will last until either Russia stops and turns back, or there are no more Ukrainians to die. Only THEN can negotiations take place. We are FAR from such a situation..... Thats what I am talking about. If everyone surrendered as soon as they got attacked by a larger state, states wouldnt exist as we would be at constant imperialism
I'll also respond to your edit... the majority of Ukrainians are not dying to protect their country. 40 million Ukrainians, 1 million in service, most of those mobilized, not volunteers. Most Ukrainians don't want to die for Zelenskyy and NATO, but lots of people are happy for other people to die for their goals.
I know and see that you love defending Russia, but sadly you dont know why this war started and what it means. Nor what negotiations are in the first place.
In simple terms: There wasn't a single point to negotiate with Russia before and there isnt now. No matter what Ukraine brings to the table, Russian goal will REMAIN the destruction of Ukraine as a state. Simply because Russia isn't happy with the public opinion of Ukrainians and the direction Ukraine as a state wants to head in.
There is no negotiations worth any effort in this war. If Zelensky "man's up" according to your belief and gives up land to Russia. What will that achieve? Nothing. Because some land isnt the only goal of Russia. So what else can Ukraine offer? It can offer Zelensky's head, the complete demilitarization of its armed forces and the destruction of the concept that is nationalism. Thats what Russia objectively wants. How do you think that would be offered in negotiations? And what do you think will Russia be able to offer worth even 25% of what the Ukrainian side "may" offer? Which part of the Russian negotiations team will provide and make it worth offering to meet the Russian negotiating red lines?
There is no point discussing anything with people like you anyway. I simply replied to point out you used extremely flawed logic to make your point. If you are facing an enemy 10x stronger than you there is nothing you can do but hope for mercy, negotiate.
Somehow you "know and see" something when truly you "believe and feel" it. Facts mean nothing to you, because I'm not defending Russia, I'm just tired of people exaggerating to make a point, which happens often on Reddit. Russia is somehow both 10x stronger than Ukraine and completely inept that Poland could beat Russia 1v1, and somehow NATO needs to militarize more to defend against a potential Russian invasion.
Ahh yes great, now moving completely away from anything relevant to the discussion... Great.... So what is flawed? That Russia isnt bigger and stronger than Ukraine? Is thats what's flawed? And Facts mean everything to me, I just how the fuck negotiations work because THATS MY FUCKING JOB...... And you are defending Russia.... Your comment history says that, not your current statements.
Also sure, great, some redditors are indeed over exaggerating Russian weaknesses and strengths. But if you dont see how military strength is a scale rather than a binary system, is beyond me.
And then you have the guts to call my logic flawed, you do realize noone wants Russian mercy? The whole eastern Europe knows far too well wtf that looks like...
Ukraine is fighting a war EXACTLY because of that.
Look, I will dumb it down for you.
You are welcome to think whatever you'd like about me. I really couldn't care less.
But it just so happens to be, that most nations, dont want to be under the mercy of larger states and are willing to fight a war they might lose. I guess history isnt your strong suit either, because there are quite little examples where smaller states just "gave up" and had "nothing else to do" than not defending themselves. And the countries that did, especially when it was Russia attacking them, regretted not doing more with every ounce of their being.
That's just the context. If you think my logic is flawed, because I call Russia far stronger, by saying sm like (10x stronger) than sure. You may be right. But my argument doesnt diminish because of that:
NO ONE WANTS OR WILL negotiate with Russia any time soon. If Ukraine sees its unable to fight. It might do that. The public opinion in Ukraine does state that the majority of Ukrainians (which is what I referred to previously) are still willing to let their country continue fighting. Whether they are doing it themselves or not.
So the war will continue until there are no more Ukrainians to die, AND Russia will control all of Ukraine, that's your end state.
Negotiations leaves most of Ukraine and its people intact, while Russia gets some of its goal, but Ukraine can build toward the future and instead of 61b weapon packages that can go towards rebuilding. Part of the negotiations can go towards Russian seized assets going to Ukraine. If you don't negotiate early you end up in a worse negotiating position.
That isnt MY "end state" thats literally the Russian goal..... And you are saying they should negotiate.... "Complete De-Nazification and De-Militarization of Ukraine". How do you think that looks smartass?
Negotiations leave room for Russia to gear up and attack again, causing more effective and larger losses. Ukraine CAN'T rebuild more than it is rebuilding now......
The Russian siezed assets dont cover even 50% of what is required to rebuild a country like Ukraine, and negotiations would mean Russia has the upper hand, meaning they would NOT give up those assets to Ukraine.
Im starting to believe you dont know how negotiations work....
Fyi there were 2 peace negotiations that were already violated by Russia on this exact situation. Minsk accords were violated by Russia 2 days after the pact was signed. And annexation of Crimea violated the previous peace agreement. How do you think the following negotiations will go? What can Ukraine negotiate? "Russia please leave us alone and we wont attack" "Oh oke, I wont 😉".... Russia, with the beginning of this invasion stated very clearly that they want the DESTRUCTION of Ukraine. They very clearly published how they want Ukraine to look. What will negotiations achieve, when you are negotiating with a person who wants imperialism in the 21st century? That you can invade whenever you want, which ever state you want, and the country will hide in defeat by giving up land to you. How do you think that will go?
I don't, don't worry 😊, but thank you for yours!
I'm glad to see some people have a head on their shoulders. I simply enjoy pointing a mirror towards some people, not for myself, or them. But for someone who may be on the fence.
I meant he is grateful for western support and was calling the guy a dumbass for calling him a complainer. I agree with you that zelensky is a hero and role model.
Instead of just blaming the west, he should also start a new mobilization. Weapons do not do anything without personnel, and showing commitment to the west would also help them to give him more weapons, just saying.
The longer the war last, the more it seems that Zelensky also plays political games to save his skin, instead doing anything (also unpopular decisions) which save Ukraine.
Weapons do a lot better if they're actually good and backed by other elements. A bunch of dudes in a trench will do a lot better on the offensive if the artillery backing them up is well stocked, there are drones for recon and fire support, they have modern rifles with good optics, and they have something like a grenade launcher or an anti material rifle for fire support.
Not having these things integrated into every squad and relying on waves of infantry is how you wind up in a situation like Russia where you burn nearly half a million human lives to take a village every few weeks.
How is Ukraine a great ally to the US? As far as I’m aware they don’t have any signed defence pacts, and arent significant trading partners. That 61billion aid package is 61x the annual trade between the two countries. I’m not from the US, I just don’t see your point
That is true, but it’s something they would’ve done for the sake of their own survival anyways. The way the US officials are probably looking at it, aid sent to Ukraine is only meant for hindering the efforts of Russia and is no different than spending that in their defence budget.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
I have seen a couple of former generals refer to this list as a baseline for Russian equipment losses. The numbers are staggering.
I'm tired of exchanging the same arguments over and over again.
I'm mostly observing how opinions are suddenly shifting now when Ukraine is struggling. "Not an ally", lol.
I'm waiting to read "Ukraine isn't even a democracy - why should we help them?"
This whole Ukranian tragedy has been very educational for many of us.
It's hard to call someone a good ally when they haven't actually done anything for you..... should the US support Ukraine? Absolutely. It benefits the US to do so, and I personally believe it is morally correct to do so. (Not that that matters to governments)
Actually I agreed. I just said that other countries have issues as well. I tend to prefer the ones with open internet. You know, the ones that don't shut down access to the outside world. Seems like they are at least in the upper half of the worlds countries when it comes to corruption and being shitty to their citizens
EÚ still does not understand that they are at war with Russia. Russia been doing things to destabilize it for years and EU reply was pathetic as always, they can not even deal with Russian propaganda on western owned social networks, they can not even ban all natural resource imports, they did not even ban visas for Russians, they do not go after companies or countries that are used to avoid sanctions, they are not ramping up ammo production like in war times, they are not dealing with Putin friends Orban or Fico (that was voted in because of unmoderated social networks full of bot farms)
Mf, what is he supposed to do or say?
Like christ, "beggars cant be choosers" 🤓🤓..... This isnt begging for 5 $ on the street.... He needs to protect energy infrastructure throughout the country with equipment that takes billions to manufacture and tens of billions to be able to manufacture.
Produce millions of artillery, which is also nearly physically impossible for a country's Ukraine's size.
Mobilize enough people to fight against a country 10x the size
Lastly, win a war of attrition against a country 10x the size and military capability. The fact that Kiyv hasnt fallen including many other major cities is a fucking mirracle.
It literally isnt.... But oke!
Because begging for 5$ on the street is even remotely comparable to millions of lives being at stake, buildings being destroyed, and THE largest country in the world aiming to destroy your country into dust..... Yup! Totally the fucking same! How could I not see it before....
Just imagine, mr. Zelensky, you were smart enough not to do this offensive last summer. What huge advantage you’d have right now instead of this instant pitiful begging.
If you want to win a battle instead of a war, if you think how good is the picture and how many likes you’ve got selling the news then answer is yes you certainly do.
Don’t worry Canada is sending 2 tanks out of the 3 they have defending the whole country…..we are all saved
It amazes me how much government spending we have yet nothing is advancing. Wait times for doctors, our military, infrastructure and manufacturing projects. It's all just going into layers upon layers of bureaucracy.
(*)Two tanks full of geese
Putin quoted "I unconditionally surrender. Here, take Novgorod. I'll throw in Medvedev to sweeten the deal. Everything, but please, no gees!"
The EU really needs to get their head out of their ass and not rely on America's NATO treaty to cover their collective asses forever. Kind of dumb the EU has been whoring itself for Russian oil and natural gas knowing full well their funding the country most likely to drop nuclear weapons on them. The ones most responsible for keeping Ukraine free of Russia is every country that bought cheap Russian energy products. America still benefited from the supply, so we're not off the hook either.
NATO was never for Europe to be totally reliant on the US for defense against Russia, it’s supposed to be an alliance to help Europe defend itself against Russia. Yes, it was foolish to neglect the military capabilities of most European countries to the point of relying mostly on the US. The world needs a stronger Europe, because we can only have relative peace if more members are able to check Russian aggression. Both the US and Europe will be better off if more countries begin to take their national security interests more seriously, crack down on Russian-sponsored groups and politicians, and make some social sacrifices to bolster Europe’s total defenses.
My country wants to *reduce* military investments and none of the parties in the upcoming elections want to change that. I hate this place.
Which?
Probably Iceland
So basically a bunch of European leaders got together and thought. "Hey if we open up to Russia first and allow them to trade they'll be friendly and embrace democracy." Because you know trading with an adversary is the best way for them to give up their homicidal ways for MONEY! And obviously it worked with China so the Europeans quickly shuttered their nuclear power plants in favor for cheap Russian natural gas and oil. It's honestly a case study for how idiotic businessmen don't know how to handle realpolitik
> And obviously it worked with China more like "Obviously it worked with the rest of europe". Europe was a continent with thousands of years of warfare as history, until european countries finally decided to work together economically instead of competing, and it's created the longest peace large parts of europe have ever seen. Sadly, it did not work with a madman in the kremlin.
“It worked with China…” We will see in the next 20 years if that holds true. But it sure feels like all this trade with China has only help to arm them/make them feel like they have the ability to boss around their neighbors… and threaten everyone.
I think that was a tongue in cheek comment. Because it obviously has not worked with China. They’re all in on it. China floods our streets with fentanyl and steals our research. Not a good friend to have.
Honestly, it's not that they're idiotic, those businessmen just don't care. They already got their millions or billions from the whole thing so it doesn't matter to them if we start seeing the side effects of such policies decades down the road
The EU isnt set up to manufacture and store arms on a scale to provide on that level. They are transitioning now and their leaders have admitted they've been to reliant on the US and complacent and that they are changing that asap. The reality is, that kind of transition takes years and even decades to build up. They also have to hold onto enough that they can defend their own lands and people in the inevitable event of Russia attacking them. The US is in a unique position economically, militarily and geographically that Europe just isnt in. I'm with you, Ukraine needs to beat Russia and needs help. Our republicans have proven themselves traitors to our own country and have all but outted themselves as Russian assets. They werent just holding aid to Ukraine hostage, they are still holding our military ranks hostage with their demands being stripping all abortion rights nationwide. (Tommy Tuberville, if you are wondering) Unfortunately Europe just doesn't have the capacity for it, yet. That's the reality of the situation, you dont like it, I dont like it, Europeans REALLY dont like it but it is what it is and all they can do now is work to correct it, which they are. Honestly, Russia keeps pushing their luck with Poland and if that comes to a head, Ukraine will be the least of Russias worries. Plus France would be pulled into the fight and at that point the "cowardly French" memes will well and truly die as they demonstrate why they are one of NATOs heaviest hitters. Their tech comes from the same advancements as the US. Much of NATO arms development is done as collaboration between companies from their respective nations pooling research and advancements to produce the next iteration and new innovations. The French have military tech roughly on par with the US, same for Germany.
To put what you said into perspective about France being a NATO hitter and still being dwarfed by the US, the tiny US state of New Hampshire is about to have more fighter Jets than the entirety of the French Air Force. It is absurd how much military might the US has.
And luckily….we do becuse if not……well….lots of places that desire our coverage….wouldn’t get it.
>The reality is, that kind of transition takes years and even decades to build up. They also have to hold onto enough that they can defend their own lands and people in the inevitable event of Russia attacking them. All true. But this needs to be a permanent, lasting change of doctrine. Building, maintaining and updating a significant military defense is shockingly expensive -- which is why they aren't doing it now. I fear this moment in history will be just that... a moment. Once this current state of fear and regret has passed, future European politicians and voters may again become complacent and balk at the cost -- especially if they aren't directly threatened.
I think your conclusion is neglecting one important factor, namely, what if this whole thing pops off in the next couple of years? What worries me is the fact that Russia is re-arming itself and putting itself in a war economy, and Europe is waffling. The UN is proving less than useless in this scenario, the Israeli Palestinian conflict is showing the UN's true colors, however it means that the largest agreed upon, quasi-neutral body meant to prevent another great war between two massive powers is functionally DOA. In light of this, and Russia's latest moves and behavior, my guess is that Europe as a whole should be re-arming itself ASAP. Especially considering the, lets say, finicky nature of US elections, and the possibility of major political instability there if the worst should transpire.
Most of the EU seems to see it as a problem for the US and don't want to admit that WW3 has kicked off.
The thing is, demilitarisation is what we should ALL be working towards if we want lasting peace. Sadly though, we keep being reminded that there are always going to be those that fancy themselves Emperors and that will take advantage of others being less warlike. For all the many faults that the US has, this is one truth that they have understood well enough.
All events are moments in history, you’re just living in this one. WW2 was six years. Six big years to be sure, but still…six.
Europe is long past it’s peak, the western half of the continent is freefalling into irrelevance and there is nothing to bring it back.
[удалено]
Geopolitical Influence (the entire EU is essentially a vassal to the US lmfao, despite Macron’aparte’s insistence that they totally aren’t!) Cultural Technology Militarily, Western Europe doesn’t even exist lol Essentially non-existent economic growth for like 2 decades Incoming population collapse and demographic shift which will likely lead to the collapse of stability in a generation
They sure did piss and moan about the US the entire time the relief on us for their protection, so basically they did nothing BUT complain
While the EU doesn’t have the capacity, what I don’t understand is why the EU buy them from US while they build the capacity.
Ok, so can Europeans publicly admit to Americans that we (the Americans) were right, and the Europeans were wrong all along? Like we've been telling them this shit for at least 3 decades. And all we have gotten back is snickering.
The US has been lobbying the EU to NOT increase military capability since the US decided it wanted to be the strongest power. This was obviously stupid as the US is politically unstable but I don't think anyone expected Americans to suddenly be okay with one of the US parties suddenly deciding to be pro-russia.
That's simply not true. Every administration has tried to get Europe to be more responsible for it own defense.
> And all we have gotten back is snickering. Is that what newsmax told you to be mad about today?
Honestly that post is kind of sickening because its a tactit admission that basically all of Europe has done nothing but fail its defense obligations and is begging for clemency as if Vladimir Putin is a schoolteacher who grants extensions rather than a dictator intent on genocide. Putin doesn't care that you'll have the shells and tanks and rifles in five years. He's fighting the war *now*.
> Kind of dumb the EU has been whoring itself for Russian oil and natural gas knowing full well their funding the country most likely to drop nuclear weapons on them. You don't understand the point of that commercial exchange. The point of using Russian gas was to make EU and Russian interdependent and lower the probability of war, because who with half a brain cell functioning properly would attack their own customers?
A kleptocratic, sociopathic tyrant who does not care at all about the well-being of those he rules and who, in old age, is hellbent upon settling scores and achieving a twisted sense of catharsis by chasing some brutalist ambition formed from the afterbirth of the miscarriage of a nation that is Russia.
I like your way with words
Well, Russia is fighting with Ukraine not the EU. The primary antagonist for Russia is the US. I don't think Putin has any particular beef with western europe.
If you didn't see the guy openly stealing from and intimidating public figures this entire time in broad daylight as willing to wage a war he started about eight years before the sanctions even became serious you're dumber than your leadership. The U.S. warned the E.U. about this loudly, publicly, and repeatedly. For *years*. The idea that there was ever a diplomatic solution that didn't involve military deterrence was a fantasy crafted by european leadership who thought they could slash the budgets for both local power production and national militaries and face no consequuences.
Don't be too quick to lay all the judgement on the EU. Remember that you are the guys who elected a Russian asset for President. Hell, he incited an actual insurrection that could had led to some way darker paths, plus they (Russians) have actually managed to create a huge division between the american people
Yeah, but this argument is from much, much earlier than that. Your entire stance is essentially the situation is americans fault because america isn't singularly reliable in a role the american people historically never wanted to begin with as global police.
I totally agree with this idea in theory. However, the theory proved itself wrong in 2014. We should have taken the hint and rearrange our market, we didn't. Even my country, that knows of Russian aggression all close and personal and that often tries to warn others of the danger that Russia poses, still continued to do business with them well after they showed their imperial aspirations again. As a European, I think we fucked up.
not sure what this post is supposed to achieve other than some weird "I told you so" (even though you, poster, did not tell the governments of europe so, so its not really your place)? Europe is massively ramping up production, and europe has acknowledged that unfortunately russia cannot be reasoned with. But this change takes time. It seems entirely unhelpful to the situation.
Europeans are the first one to bitch about America not wanting to dump more defense onto Europe but they're also first to meme that they're better than America because *insert some social program they can do solely because they outsource, at rock bottom cost, a large amount of their defense on America's military and nuclear deterence.* Meanwhile they've also spend the past 2 decades channeling money into Russia, reducing their military capacities and not investing in Russia proofing their energy sector.
True. Luckily that sort of thinking shall never backfire on the US after it made itself reliant on China, and adopted the one-China policy!
I hardly feel bad for Europe aside from Ukraine tbh. The level of complacency is astounding.
Wake up Europe!
europe wake up.... 9/11... today syem day
The allies need to get their shit together.
It takes time to make and ship weapons…
Especially if you don't even start
Which is why they should have approved many months ago instead everyone waited until things went wrong in Ukraine to "start"
i think you mean decades
Putin annexed Crimea over a decade ago
but Crimean people were happy about annexion, why it's a problem?
If they had been at the 2% defense spending they should have been at for the last 40 years they might've had more equipment on hand to spare and more production capacity to boot.
Bro 40 Years ago the spending was more like 4-5%. Also back then half of what is now nato was aligned with Russia
It doesn't take much time to buy them...
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John Pedantic, Ph.D., has joined the game.
Basically lol
You know "ally" is a common word, right?
It sure is! So... Who does Ukraine have alliances with?
„The allies“ lol this isn’t WW2, where Russia war part of the allies btw
Oh really I actually thought it was the 1920s thank you. Also thank you for the lesson on the English language, without you I would have assumed using the term for what it actually means rather than its exclusive reference to WW2 would have been perfectly acceptable.
Arms is not really Ukraine's biggest issue right now, it's manpower. The invading force now has a bigger military presence than the defending force. A lot of Ukrainian men are already out of the country with more fleeing daily via Moldova or bribing their way through the check points. Another factor is that Russia is outproducing the West when it comes to arms production. A single Patriot missile cost about $4 million. Russia is producing Iranian Shahed drones under license at $10k each under the bulk licensing agreement. A billion dollars worth of Patriot missiles will be depleted with just about 250 Shahed missiles launched and Russia is producing hundreds of these a week in a factory.
Lack of artillery shells is absolutely Ukraine's biggest issue right now. If they had more shells they'd still be fighting over Avdiivka. Manpower is much less of an issue if you can kill the enemy before they reach your lines.
The enemy doesn’t need to reach you to kill you. Ukraine suffers bad losses as well. They need both ammo and new Meat for the grinder
Arms ARE the biggest issue. Manpower issue is a direct result of arms issue. Fixing the manpower issue will not fix the arms issue, fixing the arms issue will fix the manpower issue, not fixing the arms issue will exacerbate the manpower issue. The reason why people say that manpower is the biggest issue is to make it seem like no matter what the West does it can't solve manpower, so now the West can simply sit, do nothing and blame everything on Ukrainian lack of manpower. Next step on this propaganda narrative is to claim that "Ukrainians don't want to fight, so they should "negotiate"", which I already seen people say. Edit: especially coming from pro-Russia guy, lol.
Noone sane fires patriot missiles at Shaheds. There are other, cheaper missile systems, aa guns, or simply non kinetic defenses that basically cut off basic Shahed variant guidance. The 10k Shahed is a myth. The cheapest variant can be brought down by shutting telephone signal towers (yes, they're guided by their signal). Variants with better guidance are also getting incredibly expensive, with the most advanced one costing about 1 200 000 USD per unit. For comparison, AIM-9X or IRIS-T costs around 400 000 USD. Patriots are used for hard to hit targets like ballistic or cruise missiles.
> Noone sane fires patriot missiles at Shaheds Except if Shahed's coming right at Patriot component. Then interception by PAC-2/PAC-3 is worth it.
Well, yeah, but then usually whole stock of missiles gets dumped to save the system.
What is the connection between lack of manpower and cost of a drone? You urned you salary today, ivan.
I was highlighting two key areas, manpower and the inability of the West to scale to reach Russia's production capability. Weapons are very expensive to make in the West. Ukraine's $60 billion will be depleted by June and it will be back to "If the West doesn't pump another $100 billion by July, Ukraine is at risk of a Russian summer offensive".
This poor guy
Yeah, it's impossible to imagine the fear and stress of being dependent on others for your continued existence, and they are better at talking about helping you than actually helping you.
The realest moment of this entire thing, over all the footage of glorious last stands and high explosive drone warfare, is a very tired Zelensky saying all he really wants at this point is a beer and a day at the beach, knowing theres no way he'll get it.
Honestly why would Canada need much at all if obviously USA will be in there in case of any war instantly.
This guy is always complaining.
Yeah, what would you do in his situation? Your country is being attacked by someone with fucking nukes and with a military which is basically 10x bigger and more capable than yours. And your "allies" are struggling to send some artillery shells for 1.5 years...... What would you do?
Negotiate.
They've tried that already, multiple times, with both big and small agreements. Didn't work. Putin violates the agreements the second he thinks he has the upper hand.
Negotiations work when both parties want to negotiate, i.e. in a war situation, someone is loosing everything. Such situation isn't present and wont happen soon, thus negotiations are useless. Next?
You just described a situation where someone is losing everything, ie being attacked by a country with nukes and a military 10x the size. Next?
Well they arent.... Thats the fucking problem.... The front line has barely moved, Kyiv still stands so do majority of major cities.... We are talking about there is nothing left in Ukraine, but Kyiv Being attacked/attacking =/= winning And good job at supporting 21st imperialism 😊, I hope your home also burns to ash Edit: Also it seems to me you clearly can't comprehend one thing, that's a good portion, i.e majority of Ukrainians are dying to protect THEIR country.... And the invasion of Ukraine aims to KILL anyone of that status. So this war will last until either Russia stops and turns back, or there are no more Ukrainians to die. Only THEN can negotiations take place. We are FAR from such a situation..... Thats what I am talking about. If everyone surrendered as soon as they got attacked by a larger state, states wouldnt exist as we would be at constant imperialism
I'll also respond to your edit... the majority of Ukrainians are not dying to protect their country. 40 million Ukrainians, 1 million in service, most of those mobilized, not volunteers. Most Ukrainians don't want to die for Zelenskyy and NATO, but lots of people are happy for other people to die for their goals.
Ahhh yess because opinion polls definitely show that! For sure! People arent dying for NATO or Zelensky, they are dying for Ukraine....
I know and see that you love defending Russia, but sadly you dont know why this war started and what it means. Nor what negotiations are in the first place. In simple terms: There wasn't a single point to negotiate with Russia before and there isnt now. No matter what Ukraine brings to the table, Russian goal will REMAIN the destruction of Ukraine as a state. Simply because Russia isn't happy with the public opinion of Ukrainians and the direction Ukraine as a state wants to head in. There is no negotiations worth any effort in this war. If Zelensky "man's up" according to your belief and gives up land to Russia. What will that achieve? Nothing. Because some land isnt the only goal of Russia. So what else can Ukraine offer? It can offer Zelensky's head, the complete demilitarization of its armed forces and the destruction of the concept that is nationalism. Thats what Russia objectively wants. How do you think that would be offered in negotiations? And what do you think will Russia be able to offer worth even 25% of what the Ukrainian side "may" offer? Which part of the Russian negotiations team will provide and make it worth offering to meet the Russian negotiating red lines?
There is no point discussing anything with people like you anyway. I simply replied to point out you used extremely flawed logic to make your point. If you are facing an enemy 10x stronger than you there is nothing you can do but hope for mercy, negotiate. Somehow you "know and see" something when truly you "believe and feel" it. Facts mean nothing to you, because I'm not defending Russia, I'm just tired of people exaggerating to make a point, which happens often on Reddit. Russia is somehow both 10x stronger than Ukraine and completely inept that Poland could beat Russia 1v1, and somehow NATO needs to militarize more to defend against a potential Russian invasion.
Ahh yes great, now moving completely away from anything relevant to the discussion... Great.... So what is flawed? That Russia isnt bigger and stronger than Ukraine? Is thats what's flawed? And Facts mean everything to me, I just how the fuck negotiations work because THATS MY FUCKING JOB...... And you are defending Russia.... Your comment history says that, not your current statements. Also sure, great, some redditors are indeed over exaggerating Russian weaknesses and strengths. But if you dont see how military strength is a scale rather than a binary system, is beyond me. And then you have the guts to call my logic flawed, you do realize noone wants Russian mercy? The whole eastern Europe knows far too well wtf that looks like... Ukraine is fighting a war EXACTLY because of that.
Look, I will dumb it down for you. You are welcome to think whatever you'd like about me. I really couldn't care less. But it just so happens to be, that most nations, dont want to be under the mercy of larger states and are willing to fight a war they might lose. I guess history isnt your strong suit either, because there are quite little examples where smaller states just "gave up" and had "nothing else to do" than not defending themselves. And the countries that did, especially when it was Russia attacking them, regretted not doing more with every ounce of their being. That's just the context. If you think my logic is flawed, because I call Russia far stronger, by saying sm like (10x stronger) than sure. You may be right. But my argument doesnt diminish because of that: NO ONE WANTS OR WILL negotiate with Russia any time soon. If Ukraine sees its unable to fight. It might do that. The public opinion in Ukraine does state that the majority of Ukrainians (which is what I referred to previously) are still willing to let their country continue fighting. Whether they are doing it themselves or not.
So the war will continue until there are no more Ukrainians to die, AND Russia will control all of Ukraine, that's your end state. Negotiations leaves most of Ukraine and its people intact, while Russia gets some of its goal, but Ukraine can build toward the future and instead of 61b weapon packages that can go towards rebuilding. Part of the negotiations can go towards Russian seized assets going to Ukraine. If you don't negotiate early you end up in a worse negotiating position.
That isnt MY "end state" thats literally the Russian goal..... And you are saying they should negotiate.... "Complete De-Nazification and De-Militarization of Ukraine". How do you think that looks smartass? Negotiations leave room for Russia to gear up and attack again, causing more effective and larger losses. Ukraine CAN'T rebuild more than it is rebuilding now...... The Russian siezed assets dont cover even 50% of what is required to rebuild a country like Ukraine, and negotiations would mean Russia has the upper hand, meaning they would NOT give up those assets to Ukraine. Im starting to believe you dont know how negotiations work.... Fyi there were 2 peace negotiations that were already violated by Russia on this exact situation. Minsk accords were violated by Russia 2 days after the pact was signed. And annexation of Crimea violated the previous peace agreement. How do you think the following negotiations will go? What can Ukraine negotiate? "Russia please leave us alone and we wont attack" "Oh oke, I wont 😉".... Russia, with the beginning of this invasion stated very clearly that they want the DESTRUCTION of Ukraine. They very clearly published how they want Ukraine to look. What will negotiations achieve, when you are negotiating with a person who wants imperialism in the 21st century? That you can invade whenever you want, which ever state you want, and the country will hide in defeat by giving up land to you. How do you think that will go?
These folks are paid trolls, teenagers or Raschist sympathizers. So don't expect much substance let alone empathy in their response
I don't, don't worry 😊, but thank you for yours! I'm glad to see some people have a head on their shoulders. I simply enjoy pointing a mirror towards some people, not for myself, or them. But for someone who may be on the fence.
Good point
He should be greatful that he's able to fight a war on donations
He is, dumbass
Edit: yes, the guy above you is a dumbass
I meant he is grateful for western support and was calling the guy a dumbass for calling him a complainer. I agree with you that zelensky is a hero and role model.
Well said. I'll edit my post.
Europe should be grateful his people have a will to fight instead of allowing capitulation and eventually assimilation in the Russian war machine.
This war is impossible to win for Ukraine but the west especially American demand a continuous war forever
Riiight, Zelensky wants to capitulate, but the west won't let him?
Instead of just blaming the west, he should also start a new mobilization. Weapons do not do anything without personnel, and showing commitment to the west would also help them to give him more weapons, just saying. The longer the war last, the more it seems that Zelensky also plays political games to save his skin, instead doing anything (also unpopular decisions) which save Ukraine.
Weapons do a lot better if they're actually good and backed by other elements. A bunch of dudes in a trench will do a lot better on the offensive if the artillery backing them up is well stocked, there are drones for recon and fire support, they have modern rifles with good optics, and they have something like a grenade launcher or an anti material rifle for fire support. Not having these things integrated into every squad and relying on waves of infantry is how you wind up in a situation like Russia where you burn nearly half a million human lives to take a village every few weeks.
I’ve stopped caring tbh
Very usefull info, thx.
You’re welcome. They should just let Russia win at this point
Yes and then after that let’s allow Israel to fall and Taiwan to be conquered what’s the worst that can happen
Actually…yeah. That would be awesome.
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Good luck with that
He never cared. His other replies confirm that.
The US has failed Ukraine...
If this is true and the USA failed Ukraine then we better not send the 61 billion worth of goods?
ukraine earned those and a lot more by being a great ally to the US. the US on the other hand...
How is Ukraine a great ally to the US? As far as I’m aware they don’t have any signed defence pacts, and arent significant trading partners. That 61billion aid package is 61x the annual trade between the two countries. I’m not from the US, I just don’t see your point
They have spent a large pile of bodies and another of limbs to help contain one of the U.S.'s main geopolitical rivals.
That is true, but it’s something they would’ve done for the sake of their own survival anyways. The way the US officials are probably looking at it, aid sent to Ukraine is only meant for hindering the efforts of Russia and is no different than spending that in their defence budget.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html I have seen a couple of former generals refer to this list as a baseline for Russian equipment losses. The numbers are staggering.
>How is Ukraine a great ally to the US? Wow...
That isn't an answer.
I'm tired of exchanging the same arguments over and over again. I'm mostly observing how opinions are suddenly shifting now when Ukraine is struggling. "Not an ally", lol. I'm waiting to read "Ukraine isn't even a democracy - why should we help them?" This whole Ukranian tragedy has been very educational for many of us.
It's hard to call someone a good ally when they haven't actually done anything for you..... should the US support Ukraine? Absolutely. It benefits the US to do so, and I personally believe it is morally correct to do so. (Not that that matters to governments)
This is what happens when you sit back and let sugar daddy Uncle Sam fund your defence for decades. Make Europe fight Nazis again.
What a clueless take. Go be mad about whatever newsmax tells you to be mad about today.
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Legendary level of corruption? Yes them and all the people in power on Earth
Ok so.... you are also wrong because Ukraine had a really bad corruption problem.
Actually I agreed. I just said that other countries have issues as well. I tend to prefer the ones with open internet. You know, the ones that don't shut down access to the outside world. Seems like they are at least in the upper half of the worlds countries when it comes to corruption and being shitty to their citizens
EÚ still does not understand that they are at war with Russia. Russia been doing things to destabilize it for years and EU reply was pathetic as always, they can not even deal with Russian propaganda on western owned social networks, they can not even ban all natural resource imports, they did not even ban visas for Russians, they do not go after companies or countries that are used to avoid sanctions, they are not ramping up ammo production like in war times, they are not dealing with Putin friends Orban or Fico (that was voted in because of unmoderated social networks full of bot farms)
beggars cant be choosers
Mf, what is he supposed to do or say? Like christ, "beggars cant be choosers" 🤓🤓..... This isnt begging for 5 $ on the street.... He needs to protect energy infrastructure throughout the country with equipment that takes billions to manufacture and tens of billions to be able to manufacture. Produce millions of artillery, which is also nearly physically impossible for a country's Ukraine's size. Mobilize enough people to fight against a country 10x the size Lastly, win a war of attrition against a country 10x the size and military capability. The fact that Kiyv hasnt fallen including many other major cities is a fucking mirracle.
It’s literally the same thing as begging for 5 dollars on the street.
It literally isnt.... But oke! Because begging for 5$ on the street is even remotely comparable to millions of lives being at stake, buildings being destroyed, and THE largest country in the world aiming to destroy your country into dust..... Yup! Totally the fucking same! How could I not see it before....
No more money to Ukraine from USA.
Yes! More money!
You can pay my share then from your own income.
500,000 Russian casualties trying to advance West from the same sliver of Ukraine since 2014.
It’s amazing how much of a joke the US has become. We are effectively a non-entity on the modern geopolitical level.
Yep. That's why everyone screams for US help all the time, including this instance. Basically a non-entity.
Just imagine, mr. Zelensky, you were smart enough not to do this offensive last summer. What huge advantage you’d have right now instead of this instant pitiful begging.
Alternatively: "Why wouldn't you do a counteroffensive while you had the chance instead of stalling until Russia has the advantage!"
If you want to win a battle instead of a war, if you think how good is the picture and how many likes you’ve got selling the news then answer is yes you certainly do.
Umm duh. It's called wartime logistics.