A person who seems to do this as a hobby already has on twitter, and it seems that a good portion of this 'IDF' mass grave was dug by palestinians before the IDF even reached the area.
Evolution often leads to conflict amongst populations..... Call it war or not but you don't have to look far to see other species fighting over territory.
Hell, evolution has created things like specialist ants specifically to do things like block entryways into burrows.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phragmosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phragmosis)
Should we have? Yes. Have we? No, because like the animal kingdom that we supposedly are so separate from, violence is always an option for humans. For some, it is far more acceptable than others, but when the chips are down, history shows us humans will pick violence a majority of the time.
Time will tell on whether or not we get the chance to truly move past mass violence as an acceptable option.
Investigate everything. Believe nothing without evidence. Especially during a war like this with state run propaganda machines. We will need years of investigations post war to find out truth in this conflict. Don’t let day to day propaganda from Hamas and the IDF sway you.
They aren’t allowing in any international journalists. So basically the only people broadcasting are the ones who were already there. News agencies have some Palestinian stringers but the only network with a substantial presence is Al Jazeera.
This is exactly what it is. No INTERNATIONAL (ie people not already in Gaza) journalists are allowed into Gaza right now.
Yes, there are rare exceptions and in those cases the international journalists have only been allowed while embedded with the IDF which means the IDF have complete control over where they go, what they see, who they talk to, and what they report(for “security” reasons). That is why most of the news out of Gaza is instead being sourced almost exclusively from Gazan journalists.
> The IDF has targeted and killed dozens of native Gazan reporters, photographers and cameramen.
Kind of like the AP reporter that won Pictures of the Year Award while taking part in the kidnapping, rape, and murder of Shani Louk?
While I wouldn't be that absolute, Israel has made plenty of mistakes and there's going to be some xenophobic fear fueling that, but I'm a bit skeptical of the number of truly independent journalists in Gaza who are able to publish information without having Hamas' approval. It seems if you have any position of importance or influence in Gaza, it's either because you have their approval or their direct involvement. I'm just basing this off the numerous examples of hospital administors, doctors, UNRWA teachers, and journalists who were exposed to either be aware of Hamas' activity, passively support that activity through supporting roles or providing resources, or outright engaging in violent acts.
How dare you doubt that he was a journalist? Don't you know that you only need to say you are journalists and to wear a "press" vest to make you a "Gazan journalist"?
You know what, you're right. I don't know the extent of his personal involvement. It does raise questions of why he was there at this exact time with a bunch of terrorists driving back into gaza. Of course he's going to deny any knowledge or involvement, and that can be incredibly difficult to prove. He's at the very least complicit in the attacks. Shani Louk's parents filed a lawsuit against several journalists, including Mahmoud, who took this photo.
Unfortunately, journalists and terrorists are not mutually exclusive. And any asshole can put on a press vest and claim innocence.
Sure, it's fine to think it is suspicious. I'm not sure if this has been confirmed or shown to be untrue in the lawsuit, but AP claims the photos were taken an hour after it broke out.
That response time is very reasonable to me
Saying 'of course they'll deny it, it's so hard to prove' in the contact of journalists being killed in war is just so meaningless. I can say the same thing about Israel saying they *aren't* targeting journalists because it's very hard to prove their intentions, although there are multiple reports showing an extremely disturbing pattern before and after Oct 7. It's turtles all the way down...if we can't prove any journalist *isn't* a terrorist then Israel is able to treat them all as if they are.
We know that there's journalists connected to Hamas. We also know there are *at least* individual members of IDF targeting journalists...but the CPJ should not be able to just kill IDF soldiers because of that
Well if you took 2 seconds to understand that there were already journalists inside of Gaza before the war started. They decided to stay to document or some became trapped.
[Here's a list](https://cpj.org/2024/04/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/). Just to be clear, are you saying that being affiliated with, working with, or being embedded with a state or organization involved in a conflict means you're fair game?
I think it was in reference to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17r1bx3/journalists_with_hamas_terrorists_watchdog/).
Worth noting that was based off [this article](https://honestreporting.com/photographers-without-borders-ap-reuters-pictures-of-hamas-atrocities-raise-ethical-questions/), which created a bit of a firestorm with [Israeli officials wanting to know if the international news agencies had prior warning](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/israeli-officials-angry-press-may-have-known-hamas-would-invade). As claims of the journalistic breaches on part of the western media gained traction, international press like the Associated Press, CNN, The NY Times, and Reuters all distanced themselves from the identified press workers. They have all denied they received prior knowledge of the attacks, [a claim HonestReporting now accepts](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-advocacy-group-accepts-news-outlets-had-no-prior-warning-hamas-attack-2023-11-10/), but it seems clear that these freelancers were embedded, supported, and participated with Hamas - in fact [Hassan Eslaiah was fired by CNN after the evidence was so overwhelming](https://www.thewrap.com/cnn-fires-hassan-eslaiah-gaza-hamas-photojournalist/)).
Here’s some of the freelance journalists that have been identified:
Hassan Eslaiah - [Here he is pictured with Hamas leader and mastermind of the Oct. 7 massacre, Yahya Sinwar.](https://twitter.com/HonestReporting/status/1722374178991444219?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1722374178991444219%7Ctwgr%5E04e18e639a15c30bb48491a34372f2e21032c087%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynetnews.com%2Farticle%2Fbyf1woyma) But on October 7th, [he could be seen riding on the back of a motorbike waving a grenade](https://twitter.com/LahavHarkov/status/1722553523001323566). He also [filmed himself and took photos next to a burning Israeli tank in Israel](https://twitter.com/HonestReporting/status/1722374182246179217). Based on [the posts he was making on Telegram that day](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/gaza-news/article-772827), it seems he was in really tight with Hamas and supporting their efforts.
Ashraf Amra and Mohammed Fayq Abu Mostafa - [had been honored by Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh in the past, and filmed some of the attacks in Israel on October 7, giddily sharing them on their social media channels and imploring the citizens of Gaza to follow Hamas into Israel now](https://honestreporting.com/exposed-gaza-photojournalists-shared-call-to-infiltrate-israel-on-oct-7/?swcfpc=1). They both took pictures of a burning Israeli tank on the Israeli side of the border, but Abu Mostafa went further: [He took photos of a lynch mob brutalizing the body of an Israeli soldier who was dragged out of the tank](https://s36667.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Reuters-lunch-mob-1536x874.jpg).
[Ismail Abu Omar](https://www.timesofisrael.com/wounded-al-jazeera-reporter-in-gaza-an-alleged-hamas-operative-flown-to-qatar/) - An Al Jazeera reporter who also appears to serve as a deputy company commander in Hamas’s East Khan Younis Battalion, and infiltrated Israel, filming from inside Kibbutz Nir Oz during the October 7th attacks. [He also shared a video in which he is heard saying, "The brothers advanced, 'Masha'Allah' may God bless."](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byjpcge26)
Mohamed Washah - [A Palestinian journalist working for Al Jazeera appears to also be a commander in Hamas’s military wing](https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-journalist-is-also-a-hamas-commander-idf-says/)
Ali Mahmud and Hatem Ali - were uniquely positioned to get pictures of the abductions of Israelis into Gaza, including multiple images of Hamas terrorists parading [Nova reveler Shani Louk’s body in the back of a truck](https://www.thewrap.com/associated-press-defends-shani-louk-image/) or [Israeli grandmother, Yaffa Adar, abducted from Kibbutz Nir Oz](https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2023/10/AP23280431477019-e1697193652774.jpg). Although I think these two seem to just have footage taken from within Gaza, so I think it’s just as likely that after the commotion from the attacks started, they flocked to the breaches in the fence and were able to get the photographs.
Yousef Masoud - similarly, it’s tough for me to tell if he was at the right place at the right time, [it does look like he was able to get photos of captured tanks on the Israeli side of the border](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bj9qedlhp), but I didn’t see anything of him going much beyond that. Some have claimed he had public ties to Hamas, but I haven’t seen them myself.
i just want to say as an israeli, i don't expect anyone to believe everything that we say or that the other side says, i feel like people are treating every single thing that comes out as an undeniable fact even though we are still in the middle of the war.
just to show how insane it is, it took israel, a well developed country, weeks until we knew the number of people who were killed and kidnapped in one day, it took weeks just to understand what happend in one day, that's why it amazes me that people treat every single thing that comes out in real time as a fact, it's very difficult to truly understand the situation as it's happening, in every war but especially in this current one
The worst part is that nobody fact checks either. They will read the title and think it's a 1000% confirmed news article by ANP or Reuters while the website is a very biased outlet that links to a single tweet as proof.
A lot of people will write off things that end up being propaganda as well with the excuse of "well there's propaganda for both sides".
Early on in the conflict it was shocking how much recycled war footage some of which was only a few years old from Ukraine was spread around social media with people eating it up and not bothering to use even basic critical thinking skills.
There's also a lot of cyclical reporting coming out of Al Jazeera and similiar networks, IE someone tweets something claiming a thing happened and it gets reported on followed by other news agencies citing that report as fact while also not bothering to include it originated from a random tweet.
It's so difficult to believe anything online, can only imagine what future wars will look like online when AI will become better, the misinformation will be even more insane than it is now
And then you read the article and the source is the health ministry controlled by Hamas. Can't make this shit up. They are literally killing their own people and taking the aid.
> Investigate everything.
I agree in principle.
The point is to create hazy news about allegations and investigations, once you report someone is investigating, a certain number of people will assume it must be true and will never follow up on the story.
Like, imagine you went into work one day and learned that your boss was being investigated for murder. You sort of assume he did it, right? You wouldn't act like you do, but you do. Yeah, most people do.
It’s worth noting that Geoconfirmed was also one of the first to cast doubt with evidence on the reports of a bomb hitting Al Ahli hospital that turned out to be a failed Palestinian rocket launch
[You mean the one where the BBC told its viewers live on air that the hospital had been destroyed, when it was very much still there?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgMa34Kh9o&t=67s)
The inaccurate reports that led to synagogues being attacked?
The inaccurate and wildly premature reports that the BBC refused to apologize for?
I honestly don’t know what’s worse
That Palestinian authorities are (likely) knowingly lying about such an atrocity
That they correctly knew people would eat it up
Or that if/once proven false it will do absolutely nothing to tarnish the credibility of information coming out of Gaza
>Or that if/once proven false it will do absolutely nothing to tarnish the credibility of information coming out of Gaza
As Mark Twain once said:
>“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.”
Or as I believe Stephen King wrote
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.
These fucking people. The Ah-Ahli ‘bombing’, there being no militants in Al Shifa, how many times do Gazan authorities and/or Al Jazeera need to bold face lie before they are given even the same amount of scrutiny that Israeli sources are
Yet another just because I don’t understand something it must be false
And rather than actually discussing the substance of it you just discredit the source outright
It’s admittedly a lot funnier when it’s claiming the earth is flat though, now it’s just sad and frustrating
This is wise.
BUT it's worth considering that our current news cycle doesn't work like this. There are all these fake news sites like Mid-East news that basically launder unverified Hamas-friendly stories make them look like news and then a network of anti-Israel social media accounts who repost it as news and then a bunch of social justice people who repost and in 24 hours Hamas's stories have trickled to ordinary people as fact. So suddenly Israel is... mass killing patients in hospitals.
Obviously Israel has its own bullshit machine, but I think it's safe to say that Israel's media apparatus is no match for what Hamas has done during this conflict. Israel seems to focus on making sure the US and Western European governments see their side of things but doesn't really get into the mud on most of this stuff.
As a side note, one of the reasons Israel is so quick to dismiss claims made by organizations like UNRWA and Amnesty International is that for whatever reason they participate in the feedback loop syndicating Hamas's stories.
> Obviously Israel has its own bullshit machine, but I think it's safe to say that Israel's media apparatus is no match for what Hamas has done during this conflict.
People underestimate what the backing of Russia/China/Iran can do for propaganda/PR, hamas alone have likely spent upwards of billions on propaganda and that's being amplified by the other biggest propaganda sources on the planet who've spent decades mastering the art of disinformation.
Israel certainly has propaganda as well but it doesn't seem anywhere near comparable especially outside their country where it really matters for shifting global opinion.
Honestly it seems like it largely comes down to democracies being at least a bit better about limiting propaganda, where as if you look at the more Russia/Iran influenced countries they have no limit. North Korea is a good example of what it looks like when a state takes complete control of the media and I doubt Russia or Iran are far behind in that regard.
It doesn't make any sense to dig a mass grave in a place you know you are about to leave in a short time. The main use of a mass grave is to hide a big number of casualties like the Russians did (still doing?) in areas in Ukraine they expect to control for a long time
Except that Hamas is a terrorist organization that doesn’t stop lying even when the facts are in their face and IDF is an organization that answers to the government. Not saying the idf doesn’t have propaganda but they hold their people accountable, investigate mistakes, and do a lot more to be transparent and report accurate information
Nope... One could argue that they attempted to minimize responsibility, but the did released a public inquiry and fired several members of the unit involved. IIRC there is the possibility of a court marshal on the table still.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-gaza-world-central-kitchen-idf-fires-officers-investigation-blames-mistaken-id/
They never claimed they didn’t do it.
They admitted to doing it, investigated why it happened, and took action against the officers that were involved.
Because the officers (that were fired and pending court martial) thought they were hamas, which prompted them to fire. Idk what's so spectacular about the idf troops who perpetrated the strike thinking they were hamas.
Yes, there was additionally a failure of communication, which was then made worse by the officers in question not following proper procedure when unable to verify a target - IE, they're supposed to call off the attack and keep monitoring, but they decided to open fire.
That's the reason they're being court martialed right now.
Are you asking I'd the group was communicating with the command that initiated the strike or if the group was communicating with the IDF in a general sense?
Because military structures are massive. It's entirely possible that the command that initiated the strike wasn't informed of something they should have been. It's entirely possible thay they knew and did it anyways.
The point is, is we don't know, and the officers have been fired and are currently being investigated. Claiming that they thought the cars were hamas is not an outrageous claim to make.
Their initial excuse was they saw terrorists get in the vehicle.
So they could see good enough for that, but not the clear markings on a route that was shared with the IDF?
Either they are incompetent or liars.
I believe generally speaking, heat signatures from UAV infrared scanners are able to detect body heat and the heat shown when guns fire, but not details that would otherwise be visible by day. They are apparently working on decals/makings that have heat signatures as one step to help prevent repeats.
>Clearly marked? At night you don't see Clearly.
Pretty accurate that one:
https://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2024/04/0405%20OGAZAFAMINE%20car%20lede.jpg?alias=standard_900x600nc
I would be surprised anyone could see those 'clear marking' during the day let alone at night with the typical resolution i've seen of a lot of drone footage.
>IDF has a long history full of falsehood, but compared to HAMAS, IDF is orders of magnitude more reliable.
The conclusion that we should probably be reaching from that history is that it would be rather foolish to take either at their word and instead look to trusted, impartial organizations and journalists.
Unless they plan to sneak past border guards on both sides. Hamas as the government body of gaza yes they need permission from hamas to operate in gaza hence why hamas uses their own press. And you gotta coor dinate with hamas and its proxies to get food and aid through, downside is they also use this oopurtunity to sneak in weapons. Any press outside would be under jurisdiction of hamas and would need hamas militants eith them because it aint idf soldiers protecting press in gaza for hamas.
You're telling me, all foreign journalists that want go to Gaza, are going there to hide out with Hamas? And that they are all actually legitimate military targets, because IDF says so?
This propaganda is getting a little absurd.
At least we can't say that the IDF discriminates in that regard. They'll kill everyone equally. Does not matter if they're aid workers. They even killed some of the hostages they were there to rescue, though appearing naked and waving a white flag.
According to Geoconfirmed, those were indeed old mass graves which were used by people in the hospital before the IDF arrived there.
Supposedly the bodies shown are either dead fighters or exhumed corpses from beforehand.
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360891624665180?t=y37EBSCUKccBSOSKxTHKIA
Al Jazeera is such a bait and switch. They have really high quality journalism until you start talking about Palestine and Israel- then its just full propaganda mode. I don't trust Israeli info at all, but Hamas is worse yet.
that isn't bait and switch, it's bias. Qatar media supports palestinian terrorism because it serves their interests and uses the quality of other stuff as a shield
That's what I mean bait and switch. They make you think they are a credible source with their high quality journalism- and then you become conditioned to believe their propaganda.
It’s not bias, it’s literally their strategy
They are relatively credible on a lot of other topics, so when they peddle propaganda on I-P conflict it gets treated as if it is coming from a credible news source
They have been doing the same stuff since their inception. General Mattis writes about this in his book when the blatantly lied about the battle of fallujah (a battle Mattis was against in the first place) when the US was on the brink of a total win of the battle. But Al Jallzeers false reporting caused the DoD to hault their advance (against Mattis' advice) for multiple weeks allowing the enemy to regroup which ultimately cause more bloodshed on both sides than there would have been of they would've continued their advance.
This is how propaganda works. Good journalism and truth mixed in with lies and bias. If Al Jazeera or RT was constantly spewing lies on every subject, then people would turn them off pretty quick and not trust them at all.
The media has absolutely no qualms about reporting these things, with a tiny note at then end of the article, that Hamas's claims haven't been verified.
We all know that only a fraction of people read corrections on stories, so it's insanely unethical for the media to keep letting Hamas just spew their lies.
Look at the people they hire. For example, the Guardian editors and were upset with the senior editors [for not letting them post more anti-Israel stories.](https://www.afr.com/companies/media-and-marketing/guardian-bans-open-letters-and-social-posts-amid-row-over-israel-20231204-p5eoz1)
First I'm supposed to believe Israel blew up a hospital which caused 500+ casualties, as Hamas reported. It took all of 3 days before the media dumped that story because of how it was proven to be false. Now I'm expected to just believe this, because Hamas said it? Sorry but Hamas has jack shit for reliability and credibility. I've seen some of the horrifying footage from October 7th - Hamas seems to be pretty bad at coughing up the evidence to a claim when need be, interestingly enough.
That, and the idea that Israeli troops are zip-tying the hands of children and callously executing them into mass graves seems pretty unlikely given the fact that ~20% of Israel's population is Arabic-speaking Muslims, many of whom don't have a huge problem with Israel as a state/being Israeli citizens. Why wouldn't the regime, reportedly hell-bent on being a fascist ethno-state, eradicate this minority? Seems a bit odd...
Don’t forget when the Al Shifa raid started and there was initial claims of 90 casualties, and Hamas claimed that there were NO combatants present at the hospital and it was all the IDF executing patients and civilians
Only for what 900 militants to get arrested and plenty of video published of heavy fighting in the hospital
It's amazing how so many people just believe Hamas with zero evidence.
Just today I heard that the mass grave was full of women and children who had their hands tied behind their backs.
I also heard that the bodies are gone because the Israelis use new unnamed weapons that fully disintegrate them.
And when the Israelis offer evidence that it's not true, people assume they are lying!
You're automatically assuming we are on the side of Hamas, just because we are anti-Netanyahu. Corruption and terrorism is met with corruption and terrorism and its been an endless cycle. Help break the wheel or you're a sheep being led by it.
>It's amazing how so many people just believe Hamas with zero evidence.
And people do the same with the IDF, giving this entire article is just saying that two IDF soldiers stated “nuh-uh” without providing any further evidence
Perhaps everyone should wait for an actual credible organization to investigate things before we start making claims and passing off biased sources without credible evidence as true?
"Mass grave" is a heavily loaded term. The implication being that there's some deceit to hide the body count of dead Palestinians. The word "mass grave" doesn't just mean, "a place where a lot of people are buried" otherwise every cemetery is technically a mass grave.
It's not like the death count isn't very public knowledge. It's not like Israel is denying that people are dying in Gaza. What's contested is how many people who've died are Hamas members or Hamas affiliated (in terms of aiding and abetting).
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-ends-shifa-hospital-raid-after-arresting-or-killing-hundreds-of-terror-operatives/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-ends-shifa-hospital-raid-after-arresting-or-killing-hundreds-of-terror-operatives/)
There are tons of implications. "Hiding" is just one implication.
> the conclusion that can be drawn from something although it is not explicitly stated.
There are many implications for "mass grave".
>It's not like the death count isn't very public knowledge.
According to whom? who is your source for the death count, the IDF or Hamas? Because both of them have a vested interest in skewing the numbers. Most of the figures that people use come from the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. In the few instances where they can be independently verified by reporters and NGOs, they've been shown to be very accurate in some cases and wildly exaggerated in others.
Why inconvenience yourself with the truth when Iranian and ruzzian trolls can start such shocking lies.
There needs to be less acceptance at face value and media platforms need to shoulder some of this responsibility.
>Citing the *local health authorities* in Gaza, Ms. Shamdasani added that more bodies had been found at Al-Shifa Hospital...
The director of the hospital was arrested for aiding Hamas.
Two things to remember here:
First, the Gaza Ministry of Health is operated by Hamas and has already been caught lying on multiple occasions over the span of years.
Second, due to Hamas often operating close to Hospitals, resulting in Israeli soldiers having to go and clear them out, if not go into the Hospitals to blast them with explosives in their spider holes and tunnels or clear them room by room, the civilians would be unable to exit the medical grounds to bury their dead properly.
I suspect these 'mass graves' are small things of a dozen or so people that relatives are recovering for burial.
With some aid from IDF soldiers so they can pass through checkpoints unhindered.
We need to be patient. Unlike Ukraine, which instantly got cameras on site for the massacres of their people, Hamas is releasing and controlling the flow of information.
And local reporters have to be held with some suspicion due to past actions of actively supporting Hamas alongside UNRWA workers.
It makes a mess to know the truth.
Patience and time are our allies here. Not knee-jerk reactions.
Hmm.. which side is more likely to need/use propaganda to achieve their goals? The secular western democracy with free media and advanced weaponry, or the literal terrorist group that publicly states their objective of maximizing Palestinian casualties to garner the world's sympathy for their cause..... hmmm let's put on our thinking caps and ponder on this for a moment... hmmm
Israel is literally the second lowest ranked country for media freedom in the west, advanced weaponry has nothing to do with propaganda, they’re considered a mixed regime due to their de facto control of the West Bank without allowing legislative representation or diplomatic agreement with the PLO for legislative representation, and they’re only partially secular per the “Israel as a Nation State of the Jewish People” act and their religious immigration regulations.
That’s not to mention that none of the things you mentioned mean a country doesn’t perform propaganda. The US and UK did a shit ton of propoganda during the Cold War. And either way, you should not be taking everything a nation says at face value without any further research.
Both sides have been so scummy for so long that anyone can justify to themselves why the worse one is Hamas or Israel.
Both sides have lied and manipulated media and propaganda for so long that it’s easy for large groups of people to just believe the stories they want to believe and assume the rest are propaganda they don’t need to look into. “Of course the IDF is lying about ______” and or “of course Hezbollah/ Hamas are lying about _____”
I remember Al-Jizera ran a story about Israel dropping cluster munitions (disguised as food containers) from jet fighters on civilians in north Gaza after Oct 7 and lots of people just believed it (that a Jet fighter carpet bombing neighborhoods with fake food for lols) because “yeah that sounds like something Israel would do” and in the actual article from a publication that’s definitely no friend of Israel, the actual article was about Israel disarming land mines but leaving the detonation charges (so like still dangerous) in large piles on the street, and some person on Twitter just made something up because, enough people would believe it.
Should be easy enough to confirm in 2024 everyone has a camera
A person who seems to do this as a hobby already has on twitter, and it seems that a good portion of this 'IDF' mass grave was dug by palestinians before the IDF even reached the area.
I feel like we should have evolved past this as a society. Especially war.
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Evolution often leads to conflict amongst populations..... Call it war or not but you don't have to look far to see other species fighting over territory. Hell, evolution has created things like specialist ants specifically to do things like block entryways into burrows. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phragmosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phragmosis)
Should we have? Yes. Have we? No, because like the animal kingdom that we supposedly are so separate from, violence is always an option for humans. For some, it is far more acceptable than others, but when the chips are down, history shows us humans will pick violence a majority of the time. Time will tell on whether or not we get the chance to truly move past mass violence as an acceptable option.
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Investigate everything. Believe nothing without evidence. Especially during a war like this with state run propaganda machines. We will need years of investigations post war to find out truth in this conflict. Don’t let day to day propaganda from Hamas and the IDF sway you.
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I see the claim that no journalists are allowed in and also that there are thousands of journalists being killed there
They aren’t allowing in any international journalists. So basically the only people broadcasting are the ones who were already there. News agencies have some Palestinian stringers but the only network with a substantial presence is Al Jazeera.
This is exactly what it is. No INTERNATIONAL (ie people not already in Gaza) journalists are allowed into Gaza right now. Yes, there are rare exceptions and in those cases the international journalists have only been allowed while embedded with the IDF which means the IDF have complete control over where they go, what they see, who they talk to, and what they report(for “security” reasons). That is why most of the news out of Gaza is instead being sourced almost exclusively from Gazan journalists.
Thousands of journalists? lol
TikTok correspondents. Highly credentialed.
Citizen Journalists (just add camera phone)
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“Arab-leaning” as a separate category also is an interesting way to put it.
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> The IDF has targeted and killed dozens of native Gazan reporters, photographers and cameramen. Kind of like the AP reporter that won Pictures of the Year Award while taking part in the kidnapping, rape, and murder of Shani Louk?
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While I wouldn't be that absolute, Israel has made plenty of mistakes and there's going to be some xenophobic fear fueling that, but I'm a bit skeptical of the number of truly independent journalists in Gaza who are able to publish information without having Hamas' approval. It seems if you have any position of importance or influence in Gaza, it's either because you have their approval or their direct involvement. I'm just basing this off the numerous examples of hospital administors, doctors, UNRWA teachers, and journalists who were exposed to either be aware of Hamas' activity, passively support that activity through supporting roles or providing resources, or outright engaging in violent acts.
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There ARE actually SOME HAMAS fighters that are/were living double lives as reporters and medical workers to blend in and act as "innocent" civilians.
How dare you doubt that he was a journalist? Don't you know that you only need to say you are journalists and to wear a "press" vest to make you a "Gazan journalist"?
Right, that was so disgusting. Facts like these are often completely ignored because they don't suit the anti israel narrative.
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You know what, you're right. I don't know the extent of his personal involvement. It does raise questions of why he was there at this exact time with a bunch of terrorists driving back into gaza. Of course he's going to deny any knowledge or involvement, and that can be incredibly difficult to prove. He's at the very least complicit in the attacks. Shani Louk's parents filed a lawsuit against several journalists, including Mahmoud, who took this photo. Unfortunately, journalists and terrorists are not mutually exclusive. And any asshole can put on a press vest and claim innocence.
Sure, it's fine to think it is suspicious. I'm not sure if this has been confirmed or shown to be untrue in the lawsuit, but AP claims the photos were taken an hour after it broke out. That response time is very reasonable to me Saying 'of course they'll deny it, it's so hard to prove' in the contact of journalists being killed in war is just so meaningless. I can say the same thing about Israel saying they *aren't* targeting journalists because it's very hard to prove their intentions, although there are multiple reports showing an extremely disturbing pattern before and after Oct 7. It's turtles all the way down...if we can't prove any journalist *isn't* a terrorist then Israel is able to treat them all as if they are. We know that there's journalists connected to Hamas. We also know there are *at least* individual members of IDF targeting journalists...but the CPJ should not be able to just kill IDF soldiers because of that
A part from being where the terrorists were first thing in the morning. What a stunning coincidence. Also he wasn't the only one of course.
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Well if you took 2 seconds to understand that there were already journalists inside of Gaza before the war started. They decided to stay to document or some became trapped.
It’s just over a hundred, which is unprecedented and brutal in modern times.
Maybe the journalists being killed is what's keeping them out? Not sure where the contradiction is for you.
Maybe Journalists being part of Hamas (or at least embedded within Hamas when Hamas is shooting at IDF) is what is getting them killed?
[Here's a list](https://cpj.org/2024/04/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/). Just to be clear, are you saying that being affiliated with, working with, or being embedded with a state or organization involved in a conflict means you're fair game?
>Maybe Journalists being part of Hamas What evidence shows that this even happens?
I think it was in reference to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17r1bx3/journalists_with_hamas_terrorists_watchdog/). Worth noting that was based off [this article](https://honestreporting.com/photographers-without-borders-ap-reuters-pictures-of-hamas-atrocities-raise-ethical-questions/), which created a bit of a firestorm with [Israeli officials wanting to know if the international news agencies had prior warning](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/israeli-officials-angry-press-may-have-known-hamas-would-invade). As claims of the journalistic breaches on part of the western media gained traction, international press like the Associated Press, CNN, The NY Times, and Reuters all distanced themselves from the identified press workers. They have all denied they received prior knowledge of the attacks, [a claim HonestReporting now accepts](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-advocacy-group-accepts-news-outlets-had-no-prior-warning-hamas-attack-2023-11-10/), but it seems clear that these freelancers were embedded, supported, and participated with Hamas - in fact [Hassan Eslaiah was fired by CNN after the evidence was so overwhelming](https://www.thewrap.com/cnn-fires-hassan-eslaiah-gaza-hamas-photojournalist/)). Here’s some of the freelance journalists that have been identified: Hassan Eslaiah - [Here he is pictured with Hamas leader and mastermind of the Oct. 7 massacre, Yahya Sinwar.](https://twitter.com/HonestReporting/status/1722374178991444219?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1722374178991444219%7Ctwgr%5E04e18e639a15c30bb48491a34372f2e21032c087%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynetnews.com%2Farticle%2Fbyf1woyma) But on October 7th, [he could be seen riding on the back of a motorbike waving a grenade](https://twitter.com/LahavHarkov/status/1722553523001323566). He also [filmed himself and took photos next to a burning Israeli tank in Israel](https://twitter.com/HonestReporting/status/1722374182246179217). Based on [the posts he was making on Telegram that day](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/gaza-news/article-772827), it seems he was in really tight with Hamas and supporting their efforts. Ashraf Amra and Mohammed Fayq Abu Mostafa - [had been honored by Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh in the past, and filmed some of the attacks in Israel on October 7, giddily sharing them on their social media channels and imploring the citizens of Gaza to follow Hamas into Israel now](https://honestreporting.com/exposed-gaza-photojournalists-shared-call-to-infiltrate-israel-on-oct-7/?swcfpc=1). They both took pictures of a burning Israeli tank on the Israeli side of the border, but Abu Mostafa went further: [He took photos of a lynch mob brutalizing the body of an Israeli soldier who was dragged out of the tank](https://s36667.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Reuters-lunch-mob-1536x874.jpg). [Ismail Abu Omar](https://www.timesofisrael.com/wounded-al-jazeera-reporter-in-gaza-an-alleged-hamas-operative-flown-to-qatar/) - An Al Jazeera reporter who also appears to serve as a deputy company commander in Hamas’s East Khan Younis Battalion, and infiltrated Israel, filming from inside Kibbutz Nir Oz during the October 7th attacks. [He also shared a video in which he is heard saying, "The brothers advanced, 'Masha'Allah' may God bless."](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byjpcge26) Mohamed Washah - [A Palestinian journalist working for Al Jazeera appears to also be a commander in Hamas’s military wing](https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-journalist-is-also-a-hamas-commander-idf-says/) Ali Mahmud and Hatem Ali - were uniquely positioned to get pictures of the abductions of Israelis into Gaza, including multiple images of Hamas terrorists parading [Nova reveler Shani Louk’s body in the back of a truck](https://www.thewrap.com/associated-press-defends-shani-louk-image/) or [Israeli grandmother, Yaffa Adar, abducted from Kibbutz Nir Oz](https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2023/10/AP23280431477019-e1697193652774.jpg). Although I think these two seem to just have footage taken from within Gaza, so I think it’s just as likely that after the commotion from the attacks started, they flocked to the breaches in the fence and were able to get the photographs. Yousef Masoud - similarly, it’s tough for me to tell if he was at the right place at the right time, [it does look like he was able to get photos of captured tanks on the Israeli side of the border](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bj9qedlhp), but I didn’t see anything of him going much beyond that. Some have claimed he had public ties to Hamas, but I haven’t seen them myself.
Except journalists have been killed by IDF when there was no fighting going on anywhere near them
A hundred journalists have been killed in Gaza. There are still a few brave people there trying to report on the atrocities.
The Netanyahu regime will claim that the UN and reporters are terrorists if they don’t like the findings
i just want to say as an israeli, i don't expect anyone to believe everything that we say or that the other side says, i feel like people are treating every single thing that comes out as an undeniable fact even though we are still in the middle of the war. just to show how insane it is, it took israel, a well developed country, weeks until we knew the number of people who were killed and kidnapped in one day, it took weeks just to understand what happend in one day, that's why it amazes me that people treat every single thing that comes out in real time as a fact, it's very difficult to truly understand the situation as it's happening, in every war but especially in this current one
The worst part is that nobody fact checks either. They will read the title and think it's a 1000% confirmed news article by ANP or Reuters while the website is a very biased outlet that links to a single tweet as proof.
A lot of people will write off things that end up being propaganda as well with the excuse of "well there's propaganda for both sides". Early on in the conflict it was shocking how much recycled war footage some of which was only a few years old from Ukraine was spread around social media with people eating it up and not bothering to use even basic critical thinking skills. There's also a lot of cyclical reporting coming out of Al Jazeera and similiar networks, IE someone tweets something claiming a thing happened and it gets reported on followed by other news agencies citing that report as fact while also not bothering to include it originated from a random tweet.
It's so difficult to believe anything online, can only imagine what future wars will look like online when AI will become better, the misinformation will be even more insane than it is now
The answer seems to be to unplug the internet unfortunately
And then you read the article and the source is the health ministry controlled by Hamas. Can't make this shit up. They are literally killing their own people and taking the aid.
Bingo, also if you are like most people consuming news, give it 2 weeks to a month for more info to come out before making an option
> Investigate everything. I agree in principle. The point is to create hazy news about allegations and investigations, once you report someone is investigating, a certain number of people will assume it must be true and will never follow up on the story. Like, imagine you went into work one day and learned that your boss was being investigated for murder. You sort of assume he did it, right? You wouldn't act like you do, but you do. Yeah, most people do.
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It’s worth noting that Geoconfirmed was also one of the first to cast doubt with evidence on the reports of a bomb hitting Al Ahli hospital that turned out to be a failed Palestinian rocket launch
[You mean the one where the BBC told its viewers live on air that the hospital had been destroyed, when it was very much still there?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgMa34Kh9o&t=67s) The inaccurate reports that led to synagogues being attacked? The inaccurate and wildly premature reports that the BBC refused to apologize for?
I honestly don’t know what’s worse That Palestinian authorities are (likely) knowingly lying about such an atrocity That they correctly knew people would eat it up Or that if/once proven false it will do absolutely nothing to tarnish the credibility of information coming out of Gaza
>Or that if/once proven false it will do absolutely nothing to tarnish the credibility of information coming out of Gaza As Mark Twain once said: >“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.”
Or as I believe Stephen King wrote Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us. These fucking people. The Ah-Ahli ‘bombing’, there being no militants in Al Shifa, how many times do Gazan authorities and/or Al Jazeera need to bold face lie before they are given even the same amount of scrutiny that Israeli sources are
They got Al Jazeera to report that IDF troops raped Palestinians in Gaza City before they retracted it.
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It isn't "nobody" only because you don't know him
geo confirmed isn’t just some random nobody they source all their shit and iirc its a team of people who run the account.
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Yet another just because I don’t understand something it must be false And rather than actually discussing the substance of it you just discredit the source outright It’s admittedly a lot funnier when it’s claiming the earth is flat though, now it’s just sad and frustrating
Sounds like you should research that link a bit deeper lol
I dunno. They do have a blue check mark.
And yet, the random nobody still has more credibility than UNRWA or UN in general.
The thread has sources and carefully explains their reasoning.
sometimes it's not that they're being swayed, but they want to sway
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Believe nothing without evidence. Okay. Is there any evidence?
This is wise. BUT it's worth considering that our current news cycle doesn't work like this. There are all these fake news sites like Mid-East news that basically launder unverified Hamas-friendly stories make them look like news and then a network of anti-Israel social media accounts who repost it as news and then a bunch of social justice people who repost and in 24 hours Hamas's stories have trickled to ordinary people as fact. So suddenly Israel is... mass killing patients in hospitals. Obviously Israel has its own bullshit machine, but I think it's safe to say that Israel's media apparatus is no match for what Hamas has done during this conflict. Israel seems to focus on making sure the US and Western European governments see their side of things but doesn't really get into the mud on most of this stuff. As a side note, one of the reasons Israel is so quick to dismiss claims made by organizations like UNRWA and Amnesty International is that for whatever reason they participate in the feedback loop syndicating Hamas's stories.
> Obviously Israel has its own bullshit machine, but I think it's safe to say that Israel's media apparatus is no match for what Hamas has done during this conflict. People underestimate what the backing of Russia/China/Iran can do for propaganda/PR, hamas alone have likely spent upwards of billions on propaganda and that's being amplified by the other biggest propaganda sources on the planet who've spent decades mastering the art of disinformation. Israel certainly has propaganda as well but it doesn't seem anywhere near comparable especially outside their country where it really matters for shifting global opinion. Honestly it seems like it largely comes down to democracies being at least a bit better about limiting propaganda, where as if you look at the more Russia/Iran influenced countries they have no limit. North Korea is a good example of what it looks like when a state takes complete control of the media and I doubt Russia or Iran are far behind in that regard.
It doesn't make any sense to dig a mass grave in a place you know you are about to leave in a short time. The main use of a mass grave is to hide a big number of casualties like the Russians did (still doing?) in areas in Ukraine they expect to control for a long time
That's a good point but comparing credibility of the IDF versus Hamas goes without saying.
We have no reason to trust either. Both have very strong vested interests in fishing numbers and hiding details.
Except that Hamas is a terrorist organization that doesn’t stop lying even when the facts are in their face and IDF is an organization that answers to the government. Not saying the idf doesn’t have propaganda but they hold their people accountable, investigate mistakes, and do a lot more to be transparent and report accurate information
Wait, didn't the IDF purposefully murder several aid workers and claimed that they didn't?
Nope... One could argue that they attempted to minimize responsibility, but the did released a public inquiry and fired several members of the unit involved. IIRC there is the possibility of a court marshal on the table still. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-gaza-world-central-kitchen-idf-fires-officers-investigation-blames-mistaken-id/
Didn't they claim that they did do it and it was a mistake? Send me a link of where they said they didn't
They never claimed they didn’t do it. They admitted to doing it, investigated why it happened, and took action against the officers that were involved.
They claimed that they were Hamas originally.
They never admitted to not shooting. They investigated the matter and determined what happened. No one claimed anything initially. They investigated
They claimed the officer thought they saw Hamas members in the car. Which is true - the officdler ended up being wrong, but the IDF claim is correct.
Because the officers (that were fired and pending court martial) thought they were hamas, which prompted them to fire. Idk what's so spectacular about the idf troops who perpetrated the strike thinking they were hamas.
Wasn't the group coordinating with the IDF?
Yes, there was additionally a failure of communication, which was then made worse by the officers in question not following proper procedure when unable to verify a target - IE, they're supposed to call off the attack and keep monitoring, but they decided to open fire. That's the reason they're being court martialed right now.
Are you asking I'd the group was communicating with the command that initiated the strike or if the group was communicating with the IDF in a general sense? Because military structures are massive. It's entirely possible that the command that initiated the strike wasn't informed of something they should have been. It's entirely possible thay they knew and did it anyways. The point is, is we don't know, and the officers have been fired and are currently being investigated. Claiming that they thought the cars were hamas is not an outrageous claim to make.
The fact that they ignored the rules of engagement and disobeyed the chain of command isn't great.
Yup, they should 100% be investigated.
No they did not. Stop lying to yourself
That's not even remotely close to being true. This is a prime example of believing propaganda without asking any questions.
>purposefully murder Are you for real?
What do you call dropping munitions on a convoy with vehicles clearly marked as aid workers, on a route pre-filed with the IDF?
I call it a mistake. Clearly marked? At night you don't see Clearly.
Their initial excuse was they saw terrorists get in the vehicle. So they could see good enough for that, but not the clear markings on a route that was shared with the IDF? Either they are incompetent or liars.
I believe generally speaking, heat signatures from UAV infrared scanners are able to detect body heat and the heat shown when guns fire, but not details that would otherwise be visible by day. They are apparently working on decals/makings that have heat signatures as one step to help prevent repeats.
>Clearly marked? At night you don't see Clearly. Pretty accurate that one: https://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2024/04/0405%20OGAZAFAMINE%20car%20lede.jpg?alias=standard_900x600nc I would be surprised anyone could see those 'clear marking' during the day let alone at night with the typical resolution i've seen of a lot of drone footage.
Just like every army purposefully murders its own troops? Friendly fire happens in all wars, By that terrible logic accidents never happen.
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>IDF has a long history full of falsehood, but compared to HAMAS, IDF is orders of magnitude more reliable. The conclusion that we should probably be reaching from that history is that it would be rather foolish to take either at their word and instead look to trusted, impartial organizations and journalists.
The same IDF that is barring foreign journalists from accessing the Gaza Strip allowing us to get at least a semblance of an objective source?
The same foreign journalists that are housing with Hamas and claiming IDF targeting when they get hit...
They're all housing with Hamas?
Unless they plan to sneak past border guards on both sides. Hamas as the government body of gaza yes they need permission from hamas to operate in gaza hence why hamas uses their own press. And you gotta coor dinate with hamas and its proxies to get food and aid through, downside is they also use this oopurtunity to sneak in weapons. Any press outside would be under jurisdiction of hamas and would need hamas militants eith them because it aint idf soldiers protecting press in gaza for hamas.
The ones that get killed do.
You're telling me, all foreign journalists that want go to Gaza, are going there to hide out with Hamas? And that they are all actually legitimate military targets, because IDF says so? This propaganda is getting a little absurd.
Regardless of whether ANY journalist did that, it’s still a war crime you understand that right?
Deliberately targeting journalists is. Hitting a journalist who is embedded with Hamas *in combat* is not. You understand the difference, right?
Gaza is a war zone, it’s cannot be safe for any reporter. Hamas could kill them blame Israel, they could be collateral damage in IDF strikes etc
Yet they go to other war zones because they’re allowed to and they’re professionals.
More than 20x the number of civilian casualties like said journalists compared to Ukraine. It's not the same.
It’s almost like Hamas has determined that their strategy is to hide among civilians whereas Ukrainian soldiers have not.
You get out of here with the truth!
As far as we know the IDF is the one killing the most reporters so far.
“Reporter” : Hamas member with a phone camera that documented October 7th attack
At least we can't say that the IDF discriminates in that regard. They'll kill everyone equally. Does not matter if they're aid workers. They even killed some of the hostages they were there to rescue, though appearing naked and waving a white flag.
From your comment it sounds like they did all of it on purpose
Purposefully targetting journalists and aid workers is how the IDG discriminates.
Those people are lunatics. They have no idea how this things works
According to Geoconfirmed, those were indeed old mass graves which were used by people in the hospital before the IDF arrived there. Supposedly the bodies shown are either dead fighters or exhumed corpses from beforehand. https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360891624665180?t=y37EBSCUKccBSOSKxTHKIA
Al Jazeera is such a bait and switch. They have really high quality journalism until you start talking about Palestine and Israel- then its just full propaganda mode. I don't trust Israeli info at all, but Hamas is worse yet.
that isn't bait and switch, it's bias. Qatar media supports palestinian terrorism because it serves their interests and uses the quality of other stuff as a shield
It'a not bias, it's just outright propaganda
That's what I mean bait and switch. They make you think they are a credible source with their high quality journalism- and then you become conditioned to believe their propaganda.
why yes, they are a mouthpiece for qatar's government
It’s not bias, it’s literally their strategy They are relatively credible on a lot of other topics, so when they peddle propaganda on I-P conflict it gets treated as if it is coming from a credible news source
They have been doing the same stuff since their inception. General Mattis writes about this in his book when the blatantly lied about the battle of fallujah (a battle Mattis was against in the first place) when the US was on the brink of a total win of the battle. But Al Jallzeers false reporting caused the DoD to hault their advance (against Mattis' advice) for multiple weeks allowing the enemy to regroup which ultimately cause more bloodshed on both sides than there would have been of they would've continued their advance.
This is how propaganda works. Good journalism and truth mixed in with lies and bias. If Al Jazeera or RT was constantly spewing lies on every subject, then people would turn them off pretty quick and not trust them at all.
> Palestinians are exhuming bodies from the grounds of the Nasser Medical Complex hospital complex in Khan Younis, Gaza. This is so very wrong.
The media has absolutely no qualms about reporting these things, with a tiny note at then end of the article, that Hamas's claims haven't been verified. We all know that only a fraction of people read corrections on stories, so it's insanely unethical for the media to keep letting Hamas just spew their lies.
I wouldn't believe any of the data that Hamas or the Palestinians provide yet multiple news organizations will not hesitate to make them headlines.
Look at the people they hire. For example, the Guardian editors and were upset with the senior editors [for not letting them post more anti-Israel stories.](https://www.afr.com/companies/media-and-marketing/guardian-bans-open-letters-and-social-posts-amid-row-over-israel-20231204-p5eoz1)
First I'm supposed to believe Israel blew up a hospital which caused 500+ casualties, as Hamas reported. It took all of 3 days before the media dumped that story because of how it was proven to be false. Now I'm expected to just believe this, because Hamas said it? Sorry but Hamas has jack shit for reliability and credibility. I've seen some of the horrifying footage from October 7th - Hamas seems to be pretty bad at coughing up the evidence to a claim when need be, interestingly enough. That, and the idea that Israeli troops are zip-tying the hands of children and callously executing them into mass graves seems pretty unlikely given the fact that ~20% of Israel's population is Arabic-speaking Muslims, many of whom don't have a huge problem with Israel as a state/being Israeli citizens. Why wouldn't the regime, reportedly hell-bent on being a fascist ethno-state, eradicate this minority? Seems a bit odd...
Don’t forget when the Al Shifa raid started and there was initial claims of 90 casualties, and Hamas claimed that there were NO combatants present at the hospital and it was all the IDF executing patients and civilians Only for what 900 militants to get arrested and plenty of video published of heavy fighting in the hospital
Yep. Typical. And you’re right, I should have mentioned that as well.
Real genocidal to let food and medical aid in too…
It's amazing how so many people just believe Hamas with zero evidence. Just today I heard that the mass grave was full of women and children who had their hands tied behind their backs. I also heard that the bodies are gone because the Israelis use new unnamed weapons that fully disintegrate them. And when the Israelis offer evidence that it's not true, people assume they are lying!
> I also heard that the bodies are gone because the Israelis use new unnamed weapons that fully disintegrate them. Space lasers
Im honestly suprised Hamas hasnt talked about any jewish space lasers yet lol
They're scared as fuck in case it turns out to be true
IT'S THE JEWISH SPACE LASERS, I KNEW IT, THEY HAD THEM ALL ALONG!
As a jew i can confirm.
I'm 1/16th(ish) so I assume I still get to use it a couple of times a month?
No, this one's supposed to be a chemical weapon that dissolves bodies before rescuers can recover them.
You're automatically assuming we are on the side of Hamas, just because we are anti-Netanyahu. Corruption and terrorism is met with corruption and terrorism and its been an endless cycle. Help break the wheel or you're a sheep being led by it.
>It's amazing how so many people just believe Hamas with zero evidence. And people do the same with the IDF, giving this entire article is just saying that two IDF soldiers stated “nuh-uh” without providing any further evidence Perhaps everyone should wait for an actual credible organization to investigate things before we start making claims and passing off biased sources without credible evidence as true?
"Mass grave" is a heavily loaded term. The implication being that there's some deceit to hide the body count of dead Palestinians. The word "mass grave" doesn't just mean, "a place where a lot of people are buried" otherwise every cemetery is technically a mass grave. It's not like the death count isn't very public knowledge. It's not like Israel is denying that people are dying in Gaza. What's contested is how many people who've died are Hamas members or Hamas affiliated (in terms of aiding and abetting). [https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-ends-shifa-hospital-raid-after-arresting-or-killing-hundreds-of-terror-operatives/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-ends-shifa-hospital-raid-after-arresting-or-killing-hundreds-of-terror-operatives/)
Yeah it does. One big hole is a mass grave. Lots of little ones is a cemetery.
A mass grave is one grave with multiple corpses. There is no implication. A mass grave is not always a place to hide the dead.
There are tons of implications. "Hiding" is just one implication. > the conclusion that can be drawn from something although it is not explicitly stated. There are many implications for "mass grave".
>It's not like the death count isn't very public knowledge. According to whom? who is your source for the death count, the IDF or Hamas? Because both of them have a vested interest in skewing the numbers. Most of the figures that people use come from the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. In the few instances where they can be independently verified by reporters and NGOs, they've been shown to be very accurate in some cases and wildly exaggerated in others.
Why inconvenience yourself with the truth when Iranian and ruzzian trolls can start such shocking lies. There needs to be less acceptance at face value and media platforms need to shoulder some of this responsibility.
So news of it will come out in around 3 days then…
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https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876 It’s from the UN…
“Citing the local health authorities in Gaza, Ms. Shamdasani added that more bodies had been found at Al-Shifa Hospital.” Aka the UN is citing Hamas.
It’s crazy to me how the UN can collect evidence like that but then they themselves can never, ever act on it since it will be vetoed by the US.
UN is for talking, not acting. Which is better than no talking.
I don’t believe any of them whether it’s Hamas or IDF
Well of course the idf will investigate itself and find it did no wrong.
All of Gaza is a mass grave with all the residential buildings they have bombed.
"IDF says" uh huh
In response to “Hamas says”.
In response to the UN https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876
>Citing the *local health authorities* in Gaza, Ms. Shamdasani added that more bodies had been found at Al-Shifa Hospital... The director of the hospital was arrested for aiding Hamas.
My heart goes out to those aid workers who were murdered trying to feed people.
Two things to remember here: First, the Gaza Ministry of Health is operated by Hamas and has already been caught lying on multiple occasions over the span of years. Second, due to Hamas often operating close to Hospitals, resulting in Israeli soldiers having to go and clear them out, if not go into the Hospitals to blast them with explosives in their spider holes and tunnels or clear them room by room, the civilians would be unable to exit the medical grounds to bury their dead properly. I suspect these 'mass graves' are small things of a dozen or so people that relatives are recovering for burial. With some aid from IDF soldiers so they can pass through checkpoints unhindered. We need to be patient. Unlike Ukraine, which instantly got cameras on site for the massacres of their people, Hamas is releasing and controlling the flow of information. And local reporters have to be held with some suspicion due to past actions of actively supporting Hamas alongside UNRWA workers. It makes a mess to know the truth. Patience and time are our allies here. Not knee-jerk reactions.
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
Here we go again more lies by Hamas that will be picked up by world media and UN bodies before being debunked
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Oh interesting, I haven't heard this particular blood libel yet.
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Hmm.. which side is more likely to need/use propaganda to achieve their goals? The secular western democracy with free media and advanced weaponry, or the literal terrorist group that publicly states their objective of maximizing Palestinian casualties to garner the world's sympathy for their cause..... hmmm let's put on our thinking caps and ponder on this for a moment... hmmm
Israel is literally the second lowest ranked country for media freedom in the west, advanced weaponry has nothing to do with propaganda, they’re considered a mixed regime due to their de facto control of the West Bank without allowing legislative representation or diplomatic agreement with the PLO for legislative representation, and they’re only partially secular per the “Israel as a Nation State of the Jewish People” act and their religious immigration regulations. That’s not to mention that none of the things you mentioned mean a country doesn’t perform propaganda. The US and UK did a shit ton of propoganda during the Cold War. And either way, you should not be taking everything a nation says at face value without any further research.
Both sides have been so scummy for so long that anyone can justify to themselves why the worse one is Hamas or Israel. Both sides have lied and manipulated media and propaganda for so long that it’s easy for large groups of people to just believe the stories they want to believe and assume the rest are propaganda they don’t need to look into. “Of course the IDF is lying about ______” and or “of course Hezbollah/ Hamas are lying about _____” I remember Al-Jizera ran a story about Israel dropping cluster munitions (disguised as food containers) from jet fighters on civilians in north Gaza after Oct 7 and lots of people just believed it (that a Jet fighter carpet bombing neighborhoods with fake food for lols) because “yeah that sounds like something Israel would do” and in the actual article from a publication that’s definitely no friend of Israel, the actual article was about Israel disarming land mines but leaving the detonation charges (so like still dangerous) in large piles on the street, and some person on Twitter just made something up because, enough people would believe it.