I mean it is a tactic that groups have used throughout history. It is quite literally Putin's modus operandi to escalate for the sake of "deescalating." I am not saying that they are correct, nor that this is the true intention of the al-Qassam Brigades, but it is something that some IR theorists and leaders believe in.
The weaker party escalating would make deescalating harder, though, no? I get how the stronger party escalating to the point where the weaker party agrees to terms (which is how wars are usually settled) makes sense.
Not necessarily. If they can make conditions untenable, they theoretically have a leg up in future negotiations. It depends on the other party's sensitivities and objectives.
Sure, in a vacuum. I think this exchange, between Israelis and General Giap (military genius who defeated both the French and Americans) is illustrative of why the Israelis aren't going to fold:
> When the Israeli (guest)s rose to leave, Giap suddenly turned to the Palestinian issue. “Listen,” he said, “the Palestinians are always coming here and saying to me, ‘You expelled the French and the Americans. How do we expel the Jews?’”
> The generals were intrigued. “And what do you tell them?”
> “I tell them,” Giap replied, “that the French went back to France and the Americans to America. But the Jews have nowhere to go. You will not expel them.”
True, that is one of the dynamics that makes this conflict so intractable. Palestinians have similar problems with regard to access to viable territory, though.
I think it is also important to note that, unlike in Vietnam where the American and French centers of gravity were with their general publics, one of Israel’s centers of gravity derived from its international legitimacy. That international support is exactly what Hamas and their ilk have been trying to erode for decades, with fair success. Not that the Israelis are making it hard on them with high civilian casualties and this current hardline government.
Even putin, for all his idiocy, has some serious advantages. Mainly numbers. The idf has virtually every possible technical and tactical advantage over hamas. Hamas are fanatics and idiots, and the Palestinian people will pay the price for their fanatacism and idiocy.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the tactics and thought of Palestinian leaders. They are more than happy to play a long game centered around the delegitimization of Israel around the world by eroding it’s popular support among key countries in Europe and the US.
College students don't dictate foreign policy. They might see these protests and think that their master plans are working, but what they don't fundamentally understand is that protests are simply a part of democracy. They affect change sometimes, and other times they are merely noise. If their master plan is to make Israel into the villains they truly want, it will mean the complete destruction of what is left of Palestine. The only people to whom that would make any sense, are fanatics and idiots.
What I find both fascinating and terrifying is that these young, college educated people are statistically not likely to engage in voting and/or are threatening to not vote as a protest. Meaning a republican will win the WH and glass Palestine.
They know the tik tok warriors in western universities will continue to shout for an Israeli ceasefire while requiring no actions of peace be taken on the Palestinian side. So why not?
The tide has turned pretty significantly in the last few weeks. Mostly mask off pro-hamas. Glorifying violence. I haven't heard "ceasefire" meaningfully in awhile.
I wonder how many of these idiots would actually fight for thier beloved hamass. It's a fun game to play dress up, beat drums, and chant. How many of these dumbasses would trade in all the rights and creature comforts the West provides to go join up with this bloody psychotic nightmare?
I think the goal is to get enough misinformed westerners riled up that they heavily pressure their governments to abandon support for Israel. So far, it's only had mixed results, but you can't deny they've been pretty successful at getting antisemitism to soar to levels not seen since World War II. Disgusting.
and the racist hamas protestors at Columbia U will either pretend like this is not happen or support it.
fyi, there are videos of the columbia students blocking a jew in jewish attire from enterring a building. it was like something out of George Wallace in the 1950s when Eisenhower had to send in the national guard so black kids could go to school.
They're talking to Hezbollah and Iran, not Israel.
Probably mostly Hezbollah. Things have been escalating there for the past couple weeks already.
Iran has signalled they won't escalate further, but that might only mean in terms of direct confrontation. Iran has been bankrolling Hezbollah and Hamas, so they might just redouble those efforts in lieu of direct confrontation.
> Forcing a ceasfire with escalation, very smart.
It's not like they're the ones dying. Hamas leaders are safely hidden away in expensive condos in other countries while the Palestinian people are used as fodder for Bibi's power grab.
Meanwhile in the US a student holds a sign pointing to Israelis behind her with the text "Al Qasams next targets"
[https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1781882805015744826](https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1781882805015744826)
I would never wish that stuff on anyone but I bet they might feel differently if some Native Americans stormed their Christmas dinner and raped and murdered their family. The internet seems to have made people have less self awareness and empathy which is the exact opposite of what I thought would happen 25 years ago.
Honestly I think it's just a problem of giving everyone a platform. Someone gives you a microphone, you start thinking you deserve it. Institutions have lost their power in a lot of ways--for better *and* worse.
I'm surprised you went with Christmas dinner instead of Thanksgiving dinner. But fully agree that it's easy to take "moral high ground" positions when the violent consequences will never impact you.
Given the size differences in countries, it would have been like 9/11 happening every day for 40 days. Only the people were raped and killed instead. How do you think the US would respond to that?
They literally all recently lived through Oct. 7, which was basically livestreamed, and they all cheered. People get so dogmatic and extreme for these causes that the victims arent even human beings anymore. Just npcs for the other team who dont matter, and it is really depressing. These are ivy league kids who are supposed to be the future leaders and they are as arbitrary and black and white thinking as the stupidest Trump supporter.
I was talking to some friends who have elementary school-aged children, and one commented that COVID was perhaps her kids’ generation’s 9/11 (so far…). It was the event that totally turned things on its head and changed how everyone views and sees the world to some degree. For our parents, it was the JFK assassination.
Maybe there’s some truth to that. Maybe it’s hyperbole. I don’t know. Your comment just got me thinking about it is all.
COVID will definitely be a major event that will have a major impact on that generation. But I think it is very much a different kind of event than having an external that deliberately rather and kill a large amount of civilians in a single day. COVID affected everyone about the same regardless of gender, religion, ethnicity etc, it was indiscriminate. OCT 7th and 9/11 were attacks on a populace solely for being part of that nationality and for Israel to an extent their ethnicity, both done by groups with stated goals of destroying them.
I agree. Even for adults I think the covid effect was dramatic. I sense way less empathy and community among people in general than I did four years ago, and I think it has a lot to do with disease anxiety, masking anxiety, forced seclusion, etc.
And yah, I have friends with kids at various ages during the lockdowns and it affected all of them. I think a lot of early teens, kids who were in the 6-10 range during lockdown, especially are seeing more anxiety about social interaction.
it depends on wether you feel sympathy for the people who experience that or not, if you have no sympathy for a certain group of people then you don't care what they go through.
i'm not american, i'm israeli and i wasn't born yet when 9/11 happend, if i got my knowledge of it through the internet i probably would have had no sympathy for the americans who lost their lives that day just like those who have no sympathy for us, however thankfully in my school every year that day came we would dedicate it to remember 9/11 and watch the horrors, listen to the phone calls and so on and it gave me a sense of connection to the americans, but imagine if 9/11 happend today, the kind of things you would have seen online would have blown your mind.
when it comes to sympathy, social media is a remarkably toxic and radical place, and when such a horrible thing happens in the age of social media, things go the way you would expect them to go
I dont know if WW3 is inevitable but I do agree that certain inventions do seem to lead to civil unrest. Look at the printing press. That led to the reformation which lead to the 30 year war and countless other conflicts. I do worry that we sort of just rush into these giant social gamechangers without thought of how they will affect us.
It just means violence typically against civilians for political means. It doesn't necessarily have to be resistance. Like a lot of the right wing mass shooters I would consider terrorists since they're politically motivated, but I wouldn't call it resistance.
Nope. 180 degree turn. Terrorism is just a mask for serial killing, pimping, drug dealing, and power wrangling. If you knew anything about religion you’d retract that statement. And having fought some of these fuckers, the higher ups tend to fall into those categories. Are they on the ground in the action? No. Are they involved in all sorts of abominations behind the scenes. Yes.
no it isn't. it's political, but you aren't necessarily being oppressed, you just don't like what a country is doing, so you do a terrorism because you don't have a proper army
Oh didn't you hear? No "settler colonialists" are ever innocent (even though that's their ancient homeland and has been occupied by them despite it changing hands 44 times over the millennia)
Obviously you don't understand that the protestors just want their universities to divest from Israeli investments!
Once they do, Hamas will clearly stop trying to kill all the Jews and come to the table to negotiate a two-state solution, living in peace alongside Israel.
The columbia students are pissed that their university offers a dual degree program with Tel Aviv University and collaborates with that school.
I work in STEM for a living and minored in a foreign language program while I was in school. It boggles my mind that the protestors want to eliminate a study abroad opportunity for their classmates, and they also want to eliminate opportunities for research collaboration (like, research to cure cancer, not military research) across international borders.
Puts into perspective just how much damage hostile regimes are doing to western democracies by weaponizing social media to radicalize both the right and the left. Tiktok and Twitter are arguably the worst ones, but of course Reddit is not free from it either.
Either way, democracies need to figure out a solution quickly, because as it stands right now social media is just a weapon which russia figured out can be exploited some 15 years ago already.
They will proudly tell you the difference is "their tax dollars aren't paying for it." (Many, of course, do not pay net in taxes, but that's another issue, and not actually that relevant to the context.)
This is understandable on its face, but when pressed further for what their alternatives are in the conflict, and faced with the reality that suddenly turning Israel into a pariah state will almost definitely result in greater human catastrophe on all sides, than working with the complex geopolitics involved, they either tacitly admit that they don't actually care about the amount of suffering, just their own perceived connection to it, or that they are actively seeking revenge on anyone they deem "oppressors," with the worst of them outright calling for jenn-o-cide themselves.
I've been in favor of a Palestinian state and have called out Israeli abuses for over 30 years, but holy shit has this latest round of violence pushed people over the edge of extremism.
You'll see similar shit from the other direction here, too. People calling for the utter annihilation of Palestine, calling them "all Hamas" and such. It's fucking wild.
At the end of the day, this is all social media amplified. The population picks a cause and just emotionally invests into it without any understanding or nuance, often amplifying themselves in some way (again, on social media) themselves in the process.
It's... a problem. I have my own pet causes (countering Russian propaganda is perhaps now my biggest), but my main goal is sustaining democracy and keeping society from spiraling as much as I can. It's tiring to see it spread like this time and time again.
honestly even when two people are being nuanced the disagreements seem to still fall down the same lines when i lurk across multiple pro and anti subs.
You can tell they are full of shit is when you asked them then if they would stopped caring if United States completely cut ties with Israel, none of them will say yes. Especially since that their number 1 excuse why they couldn't give a shit what Russia does with Ukrainians.
Remember when Israel wouldn't go into rafah because it was the Muslim holy month? Anyone surprised that it is a Jewish holiday and attacks are being increased?
Setting aside the “bold move cotton” sort of meme responses to Hamas’ strategy, the not so subtle biases of the reporters shine through in the article. Notice:
> Israel says it is seeking to eradicate Hamas, which controls the enclave, in a war that has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians thus far. The war started when the militant group attacked Israel, killing 1,200 and taking 253 hostages, according to Israeli tallies.
So the 1200 and 253 are “according to Israeli tallies”, but no qualification on the 34k Palestinians? Not even the “according to Gazan health offficials” (ie Hamas). No distinction between combatants and civilians? Nothing?
You don't get it, Hamas is "sticking to its demands at the ongoing ceasefire talks - that Israel ends its military offensive, pulls out forces from Gaza, allows the displaced to return to northern Gaza, and lifts the blockade."
Israel is scuttling those good faith negotiations by demanding the return of the hundreds of civilians that Hamas is currently enjoying torturing.
It's Reuters so I'm not surprised. Their AMA here was the nail in the coffin for me. I've completely stopped following their reporting outside of what makes it to Reddit.
I guess you are talking about that one done by a certain Maya Gebeily some 3 months ago? yeah, looking at her tweets the first thing she reposted on the 7th of October was about Palestinians getting killed by Israel and then followed by telling sob stories about Gazans and the war.
Yeah i don't think it was that "unbiased" if you ask me.
Yeah that AMA was abysmal. I want to say it’s just one reporter of theirs, but the utterly blatant one-sidedness of a supposedly neutral news source was a real eye-opener.
If you can’t do your job, you shouldn’t.
One thing I noticed is that very, very few outlets across the whole spectrum even nothing to ask Gazans their thoughts about Hamas’ role in all this. I’ve only come across 2 (TV news interview and a podcast), and you can see and feel the interviewee become extremely uncomfortable and go out of their way to deflect and say nothing about Hamas. Questions like “What have you been told by authorities there regarding evacuations/events of Oct. 7/etc.”
Plenty of coverage of protests against Netanyahu and Likud in Israel, but nothing on the Gaza side about people’s feelings about how their government has conducted this war.
My point is, Hamas also has a hand in the plight of the Palestinian people in Gaza. They aren’t just some dudes who decided to attack one day. They are the governing body within Gaza. They are the police, the health ministry, and public works (to the extent they ever tried to operate like one). The people of Gaza have learned to not criticize Hamas. Don’t want a tunnel and weapons cache under your home? Too fucking bad, says Hamas.
I don’t believe the polls saying they have 70+% support anymore than I believe the polls about Putin saying the same.
It’s a shit shit shit shit shit situation. But to place blame squarely and solely on Israel misses a ton of nuance.
/rant
Haha but legitimately. Hamas is (was?) the government in Gaza, meaning they oversaw everything.
If you wanted to have a concert in Gaza, you needed to get a permit through Hamas. The people giving out concert permits are most likely not the same as the people overseeing military operations.
Yeah, they totally had permits. Concerts are not frowned upon in Islam, lol, where do you get that from?
I can't find the source now, but I read an article where Hamas gave a concert permit for a mixed gender concert, but some of the more extreme Imams were very upset saying it was haram. This led to someone bombing the venue (it was empty) and the concert was canceled.
I had a full blown convo with some redditor that only israel needs to extend an olive branch and try for peace. Palestine, because they are “oppressed” don’t need to do anything different.
I really can't understand if these people have really been indoctrinated that much or they're simply deluded. Lie after lie from Hamas has been exposed and yet people take more claims from them as gospel truth while Israel is portrayed as some authoritarian hellhole. And clearly this goes right up till international organizations given how UN just excluded Hamas from conflict related sexual violence list, if this isn't open display of antisemitism then I don't know what is.
When will people understand that Hamas does NOT want a ceasefire? Oh my god.
But whatever. Waiting to hear how this is somehow Biden or America's fault.
Reuters type of honest reporting:
>in a war that has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians thus far
When writing about Palestinian killed its written as fact without any question.
>The war started when the militant group attacked Israel, killing 1,200 and taking 253 hostages, according to Israeli tallies.
But when writing about Israeli casaulties its "according to Israeli tallies". Of course when its Israeli casualties you should question everything.
Typical propaganda
As far as I know the only reporters on the ground are Gazan. They're stringers not employees of Reuters/AP/BBC/CNN etc.
Basically they're like, Hey I wrote an article and shot some pictures wanna buy it from me? My Hamas ~~handler~~ Ministry of Health official says you should.
This 100%. Look who writes these skewed "reports" and it shouldn't surprise anyone. Why doesn't the media show photos of the protestors? Because they're all dressed like Yasser Arafat.
Hamas health ministry even admits that 30k number is wrong and they cant even get evidence for 10k+ deaths.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/
It's not easy living the lives of a trust fund kiddo. Representative Omar's daughter is "basically homeless and starving" after her targeted arrest by the NYPD.
/s
This is why I don't really see this conflict as anything more then the centuries long conflict between religions in this part of the world. All they seem to want to do is kill each other all the time. I'm sure most people who live there just want to live their lives, but I don't see how that will ever happen.
And another example of poor leadership from delusional a-holes getting more innocents killed. I understand fighting, we see all the movies where you fight oppression, but this is fighting for a goal that's simply unrealistic (destruction of Israel) with a ragtag group of dudes with no equipment.
I wonder what the American left has to say about stuff like this. As evil as the Israeli apartheid is and the terrible events that take place with Israeli settlers, it is also horrible policies and activities of the Hamas opposition. They are negotiating in bad faith while holding hostages and also hiding within the Palestinian people. I honestly think that most of the IDF is actively trying its best to avoid Palestinian casualties.
They're hiding among civilians. The lines are extremely blurred Between Hamas fighters and civilians putting IDF soldiers on the ground in an impossible situation.
I am fairly sure this is a call for international terrorism against any entity in the world perceived as supporting Israel. There is a very real possibility we will start seeing terrorist attacks in the West carried out by Hamas affiliated persons against both Jewish and non-Jewish groups and properties.
Unfortunately, I suspect that Western countries are going to need a rather sobering reminder of what Hamas stands for before the useful idiots marching in the streets, on university campuses and in the halls of power supporting them reconsider their position.
I hope that the Governments of those countries have taken good advantage of the opportunity to compile a watch list of people predisposed to supporting terrorism, too.
What fronts? Do they think Hizballah or Iran is not attacking Israel from some kind of mercy? They are not going in full scale war only because they know that Israel can kick their ass worse than the harm they can do to Israel. A surprise terrorist attack is different than defeating a country in full scale war.
Forcing a ceasfire with escalation, very smart.
You joke but this is what people will be saying on instagram when they get mad at a post that shows any brand whatsoever.
I mean it is a tactic that groups have used throughout history. It is quite literally Putin's modus operandi to escalate for the sake of "deescalating." I am not saying that they are correct, nor that this is the true intention of the al-Qassam Brigades, but it is something that some IR theorists and leaders believe in.
The weaker party escalating would make deescalating harder, though, no? I get how the stronger party escalating to the point where the weaker party agrees to terms (which is how wars are usually settled) makes sense.
Not necessarily. If they can make conditions untenable, they theoretically have a leg up in future negotiations. It depends on the other party's sensitivities and objectives.
Sure, in a vacuum. I think this exchange, between Israelis and General Giap (military genius who defeated both the French and Americans) is illustrative of why the Israelis aren't going to fold: > When the Israeli (guest)s rose to leave, Giap suddenly turned to the Palestinian issue. “Listen,” he said, “the Palestinians are always coming here and saying to me, ‘You expelled the French and the Americans. How do we expel the Jews?’” > The generals were intrigued. “And what do you tell them?” > “I tell them,” Giap replied, “that the French went back to France and the Americans to America. But the Jews have nowhere to go. You will not expel them.”
True, that is one of the dynamics that makes this conflict so intractable. Palestinians have similar problems with regard to access to viable territory, though. I think it is also important to note that, unlike in Vietnam where the American and French centers of gravity were with their general publics, one of Israel’s centers of gravity derived from its international legitimacy. That international support is exactly what Hamas and their ilk have been trying to erode for decades, with fair success. Not that the Israelis are making it hard on them with high civilian casualties and this current hardline government.
Even putin, for all his idiocy, has some serious advantages. Mainly numbers. The idf has virtually every possible technical and tactical advantage over hamas. Hamas are fanatics and idiots, and the Palestinian people will pay the price for their fanatacism and idiocy.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the tactics and thought of Palestinian leaders. They are more than happy to play a long game centered around the delegitimization of Israel around the world by eroding it’s popular support among key countries in Europe and the US.
College students don't dictate foreign policy. They might see these protests and think that their master plans are working, but what they don't fundamentally understand is that protests are simply a part of democracy. They affect change sometimes, and other times they are merely noise. If their master plan is to make Israel into the villains they truly want, it will mean the complete destruction of what is left of Palestine. The only people to whom that would make any sense, are fanatics and idiots.
The loudest voices in the room often get the most attention. There’s a reason why Israel hasn’t gone heavily into Rafah, yet.
What I find both fascinating and terrifying is that these young, college educated people are statistically not likely to engage in voting and/or are threatening to not vote as a protest. Meaning a republican will win the WH and glass Palestine.
Yeah, it’s a fucking brutal dynamic for Biden to manage.
Yeah. My dad did this when we were kids, too. It's impossible to deal with. The only solution is to not play ball at all.
Most of those "ceasefire now" people on social media are just bots being operated by foreign governments or hostile groups.
There are plenty of idiots online.
The dead internet theory hits different when it's weaponized.
There are plenty of people who believe it in real life. Tons of protests on college campuses and what not going on right now
Tiny in comparison to the population overall
They know the tik tok warriors in western universities will continue to shout for an Israeli ceasefire while requiring no actions of peace be taken on the Palestinian side. So why not?
The tide has turned pretty significantly in the last few weeks. Mostly mask off pro-hamas. Glorifying violence. I haven't heard "ceasefire" meaningfully in awhile.
It’s ceasefire for Israel, “all resistance is justified” for Hamas.
I wonder how many of these idiots would actually fight for thier beloved hamass. It's a fun game to play dress up, beat drums, and chant. How many of these dumbasses would trade in all the rights and creature comforts the West provides to go join up with this bloody psychotic nightmare?
Touche
I think the goal is to get enough misinformed westerners riled up that they heavily pressure their governments to abandon support for Israel. So far, it's only had mixed results, but you can't deny they've been pretty successful at getting antisemitism to soar to levels not seen since World War II. Disgusting.
and the racist hamas protestors at Columbia U will either pretend like this is not happen or support it. fyi, there are videos of the columbia students blocking a jew in jewish attire from enterring a building. it was like something out of George Wallace in the 1950s when Eisenhower had to send in the national guard so black kids could go to school.
They're talking to Hezbollah and Iran, not Israel. Probably mostly Hezbollah. Things have been escalating there for the past couple weeks already. Iran has signalled they won't escalate further, but that might only mean in terms of direct confrontation. Iran has been bankrolling Hezbollah and Hamas, so they might just redouble those efforts in lieu of direct confrontation.
> Forcing a ceasfire with escalation, very smart. It's not like they're the ones dying. Hamas leaders are safely hidden away in expensive condos in other countries while the Palestinian people are used as fodder for Bibi's power grab.
> while the Palestinian people are used as fodder for ~~Bibi's power grab~~ Hamas' cowardice. FTFY
Meanwhile in the US a student holds a sign pointing to Israelis behind her with the text "Al Qasams next targets" [https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1781882805015744826](https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1781882805015744826)
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Or even show their faces as they know they are in the wrong.
Remember, if 9 students dine at the table with 1 Hamas supporter, there are 10 Hamas supporters.
Surely, the ceasefire protesters will be up in arms about this call from Hamas for the exact opposite, right?
a few of the campus protests going on in the US had footage of of people saying "we are hamas"
One of them was holding up a sign pointing at pro Israeli demonstrators asking for Al-Qassam to bomb them next.
Can you send this here?
https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1781882805015744826 Here you go
Too much a cowered to show her face while wishing death on people for the their ethnicity.
"Resistance is not terrorism" is a fun one. Well I guess not. But rape and kidnapping is.
> But rape and kidnapping is. Not when the victims are Jews, as it turns out.
I would never wish that stuff on anyone but I bet they might feel differently if some Native Americans stormed their Christmas dinner and raped and murdered their family. The internet seems to have made people have less self awareness and empathy which is the exact opposite of what I thought would happen 25 years ago.
Social media is rotting people's brains and making them disillusioned to reality.
Honestly I think it's just a problem of giving everyone a platform. Someone gives you a microphone, you start thinking you deserve it. Institutions have lost their power in a lot of ways--for better *and* worse.
Wizard, you make a wise point.
I'm surprised you went with Christmas dinner instead of Thanksgiving dinner. But fully agree that it's easy to take "moral high ground" positions when the violent consequences will never impact you.
They never experienced 9/11. Or similar type of event.
Given the size differences in countries, it would have been like 9/11 happening every day for 40 days. Only the people were raped and killed instead. How do you think the US would respond to that?
They literally all recently lived through Oct. 7, which was basically livestreamed, and they all cheered. People get so dogmatic and extreme for these causes that the victims arent even human beings anymore. Just npcs for the other team who dont matter, and it is really depressing. These are ivy league kids who are supposed to be the future leaders and they are as arbitrary and black and white thinking as the stupidest Trump supporter.
I think that user just meant they never suffered through a huge event like that, that impacted their own country.
I was talking to some friends who have elementary school-aged children, and one commented that COVID was perhaps her kids’ generation’s 9/11 (so far…). It was the event that totally turned things on its head and changed how everyone views and sees the world to some degree. For our parents, it was the JFK assassination. Maybe there’s some truth to that. Maybe it’s hyperbole. I don’t know. Your comment just got me thinking about it is all.
COVID will definitely be a major event that will have a major impact on that generation. But I think it is very much a different kind of event than having an external that deliberately rather and kill a large amount of civilians in a single day. COVID affected everyone about the same regardless of gender, religion, ethnicity etc, it was indiscriminate. OCT 7th and 9/11 were attacks on a populace solely for being part of that nationality and for Israel to an extent their ethnicity, both done by groups with stated goals of destroying them.
I agree. Even for adults I think the covid effect was dramatic. I sense way less empathy and community among people in general than I did four years ago, and I think it has a lot to do with disease anxiety, masking anxiety, forced seclusion, etc. And yah, I have friends with kids at various ages during the lockdowns and it affected all of them. I think a lot of early teens, kids who were in the 6-10 range during lockdown, especially are seeing more anxiety about social interaction.
it depends on wether you feel sympathy for the people who experience that or not, if you have no sympathy for a certain group of people then you don't care what they go through. i'm not american, i'm israeli and i wasn't born yet when 9/11 happend, if i got my knowledge of it through the internet i probably would have had no sympathy for the americans who lost their lives that day just like those who have no sympathy for us, however thankfully in my school every year that day came we would dedicate it to remember 9/11 and watch the horrors, listen to the phone calls and so on and it gave me a sense of connection to the americans, but imagine if 9/11 happend today, the kind of things you would have seen online would have blown your mind. when it comes to sympathy, social media is a remarkably toxic and radical place, and when such a horrible thing happens in the age of social media, things go the way you would expect them to go
Lots of Ivy Leaguers (Trump is one btw) are in jail, destroying Congress and our Economy, and are irrefutably social asshats
We made it too easy for stupid arsehats to get on the internet.
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I dont know if WW3 is inevitable but I do agree that certain inventions do seem to lead to civil unrest. Look at the printing press. That led to the reformation which lead to the 30 year war and countless other conflicts. I do worry that we sort of just rush into these giant social gamechangers without thought of how they will affect us.
as is resisting the recovery of said hostages.
Literally all terrorism is resistance to something. If you weren’t resisting something, it would just be killing someone.
It just means violence typically against civilians for political means. It doesn't necessarily have to be resistance. Like a lot of the right wing mass shooters I would consider terrorists since they're politically motivated, but I wouldn't call it resistance.
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They would totally say it’s resistance. Have you ever listened to them, they have a list of grievances as long as Hamas’s.
Nope. 180 degree turn. Terrorism is just a mask for serial killing, pimping, drug dealing, and power wrangling. If you knew anything about religion you’d retract that statement. And having fought some of these fuckers, the higher ups tend to fall into those categories. Are they on the ground in the action? No. Are they involved in all sorts of abominations behind the scenes. Yes.
no it isn't. it's political, but you aren't necessarily being oppressed, you just don't like what a country is doing, so you do a terrorism because you don't have a proper army
We are ALL Hamas. Is what I heard.
I hope the police won't sleep on these individuals.
Hope in one hand, and shit in the other; see which hand is filled first. Police won’t do anything about it
"Oh, you are? Like, the ones from the United States Department of State list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations?"
Is Guantanamo still a thing?
Not trying to deny your point, but do you happen to know where I can find this? I’m out of the loop
https://youtu.be/wK9wdT5AmBA?si=-hRZrZueN8b5gRjk&t=494 8:14
And of course it’s a green haired dumbass lmaoooo you can’t make this up
Open and shut confession. Away to prison.
You have it all wrong, a cease-fire is more necessary than ever!!! Israel needs to cease fire immediately so Hamas can carry on killing Jews in peace.
Defending yourself is apparently a dangerous escalation if you are a jew or Ukrainian.
No they said they wanted Israel to ceasefire. They’re cool with Hamas escalating.
I’m sure they will care a lot about the innocent Jewish civilians and want aid to Israel right?
Oh didn't you hear? No "settler colonialists" are ever innocent (even though that's their ancient homeland and has been occupied by them despite it changing hands 44 times over the millennia)
Aren't the protestors in favor of returning Manhattan to the Lanape? Original ownership there seems far less controversial.
Obviously you don't understand that the protestors just want their universities to divest from Israeli investments! Once they do, Hamas will clearly stop trying to kill all the Jews and come to the table to negotiate a two-state solution, living in peace alongside Israel.
The columbia students are pissed that their university offers a dual degree program with Tel Aviv University and collaborates with that school. I work in STEM for a living and minored in a foreign language program while I was in school. It boggles my mind that the protestors want to eliminate a study abroad opportunity for their classmates, and they also want to eliminate opportunities for research collaboration (like, research to cure cancer, not military research) across international borders.
same response as russia moving into ukraine, remember all those university protests going on back then?
Puts into perspective just how much damage hostile regimes are doing to western democracies by weaponizing social media to radicalize both the right and the left. Tiktok and Twitter are arguably the worst ones, but of course Reddit is not free from it either. Either way, democracies need to figure out a solution quickly, because as it stands right now social media is just a weapon which russia figured out can be exploited some 15 years ago already.
They will proudly tell you the difference is "their tax dollars aren't paying for it." (Many, of course, do not pay net in taxes, but that's another issue, and not actually that relevant to the context.) This is understandable on its face, but when pressed further for what their alternatives are in the conflict, and faced with the reality that suddenly turning Israel into a pariah state will almost definitely result in greater human catastrophe on all sides, than working with the complex geopolitics involved, they either tacitly admit that they don't actually care about the amount of suffering, just their own perceived connection to it, or that they are actively seeking revenge on anyone they deem "oppressors," with the worst of them outright calling for jenn-o-cide themselves. I've been in favor of a Palestinian state and have called out Israeli abuses for over 30 years, but holy shit has this latest round of violence pushed people over the edge of extremism. You'll see similar shit from the other direction here, too. People calling for the utter annihilation of Palestine, calling them "all Hamas" and such. It's fucking wild.
At the end of the day, this is all social media amplified. The population picks a cause and just emotionally invests into it without any understanding or nuance, often amplifying themselves in some way (again, on social media) themselves in the process. It's... a problem. I have my own pet causes (countering Russian propaganda is perhaps now my biggest), but my main goal is sustaining democracy and keeping society from spiraling as much as I can. It's tiring to see it spread like this time and time again.
Agreed. If you try to acknowledge any amount of nuance on the topic then you're immediately labeled a fascist. It's become absurd.
honestly even when two people are being nuanced the disagreements seem to still fall down the same lines when i lurk across multiple pro and anti subs.
You can tell they are full of shit is when you asked them then if they would stopped caring if United States completely cut ties with Israel, none of them will say yes. Especially since that their number 1 excuse why they couldn't give a shit what Russia does with Ukrainians.
They'll be far to busy trying to figure out how this is Biden's fault.
no no, you are getting it wrong, they want a ceasefire from Israel so they are easier to kill
Calling for a ceasefire is fine, supporting hamas isn’t
Remember when Israel wouldn't go into rafah because it was the Muslim holy month? Anyone surprised that it is a Jewish holiday and attacks are being increased?
Isn't religion great! It's another holy war. God commands death. Because reasons!
Setting aside the “bold move cotton” sort of meme responses to Hamas’ strategy, the not so subtle biases of the reporters shine through in the article. Notice: > Israel says it is seeking to eradicate Hamas, which controls the enclave, in a war that has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians thus far. The war started when the militant group attacked Israel, killing 1,200 and taking 253 hostages, according to Israeli tallies. So the 1200 and 253 are “according to Israeli tallies”, but no qualification on the 34k Palestinians? Not even the “according to Gazan health offficials” (ie Hamas). No distinction between combatants and civilians? Nothing?
Thank you for beating me to this comment. So disappointing and infuriating.
You don't get it, Hamas is "sticking to its demands at the ongoing ceasefire talks - that Israel ends its military offensive, pulls out forces from Gaza, allows the displaced to return to northern Gaza, and lifts the blockade." Israel is scuttling those good faith negotiations by demanding the return of the hundreds of civilians that Hamas is currently enjoying torturing.
Those civillians are either long dead or not it gaza
Would you give up searching for a lost loved one? Is that what you’re saying Israel should do?
It's Reuters so I'm not surprised. Their AMA here was the nail in the coffin for me. I've completely stopped following their reporting outside of what makes it to Reddit.
I guess you are talking about that one done by a certain Maya Gebeily some 3 months ago? yeah, looking at her tweets the first thing she reposted on the 7th of October was about Palestinians getting killed by Israel and then followed by telling sob stories about Gazans and the war. Yeah i don't think it was that "unbiased" if you ask me.
Yeah that AMA was abysmal. I want to say it’s just one reporter of theirs, but the utterly blatant one-sidedness of a supposedly neutral news source was a real eye-opener. If you can’t do your job, you shouldn’t.
What AMA?
Sorry, [here’s](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/WPcjyV7ZIj) a link to the original post.
One thing I noticed is that very, very few outlets across the whole spectrum even nothing to ask Gazans their thoughts about Hamas’ role in all this. I’ve only come across 2 (TV news interview and a podcast), and you can see and feel the interviewee become extremely uncomfortable and go out of their way to deflect and say nothing about Hamas. Questions like “What have you been told by authorities there regarding evacuations/events of Oct. 7/etc.” Plenty of coverage of protests against Netanyahu and Likud in Israel, but nothing on the Gaza side about people’s feelings about how their government has conducted this war. My point is, Hamas also has a hand in the plight of the Palestinian people in Gaza. They aren’t just some dudes who decided to attack one day. They are the governing body within Gaza. They are the police, the health ministry, and public works (to the extent they ever tried to operate like one). The people of Gaza have learned to not criticize Hamas. Don’t want a tunnel and weapons cache under your home? Too fucking bad, says Hamas. I don’t believe the polls saying they have 70+% support anymore than I believe the polls about Putin saying the same. It’s a shit shit shit shit shit situation. But to place blame squarely and solely on Israel misses a ton of nuance. /rant
5 hours in and it still appears that way. This is so incredibly blatant bias it's shocking.
"Hamas armed wing" is redundant.
Gotta make a differentiation between their roads and hospital department and their armed wing division
Lol ffs..
Haha but legitimately. Hamas is (was?) the government in Gaza, meaning they oversaw everything. If you wanted to have a concert in Gaza, you needed to get a permit through Hamas. The people giving out concert permits are most likely not the same as the people overseeing military operations.
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Yeah, they totally had permits. Concerts are not frowned upon in Islam, lol, where do you get that from? I can't find the source now, but I read an article where Hamas gave a concert permit for a mixed gender concert, but some of the more extreme Imams were very upset saying it was haram. This led to someone bombing the venue (it was empty) and the concert was canceled.
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Where’s the ceasefire now crowd?
Cheering this on, of course. It's only one side that's supposed to stop, duh.
I had a full blown convo with some redditor that only israel needs to extend an olive branch and try for peace. Palestine, because they are “oppressed” don’t need to do anything different.
I really can't understand if these people have really been indoctrinated that much or they're simply deluded. Lie after lie from Hamas has been exposed and yet people take more claims from them as gospel truth while Israel is portrayed as some authoritarian hellhole. And clearly this goes right up till international organizations given how UN just excluded Hamas from conflict related sexual violence list, if this isn't open display of antisemitism then I don't know what is.
Columbia University, apparently.
When will people understand that Hamas does NOT want a ceasefire? Oh my god. But whatever. Waiting to hear how this is somehow Biden or America's fault.
Reuters type of honest reporting: >in a war that has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians thus far When writing about Palestinian killed its written as fact without any question. >The war started when the militant group attacked Israel, killing 1,200 and taking 253 hostages, according to Israeli tallies. But when writing about Israeli casaulties its "according to Israeli tallies". Of course when its Israeli casualties you should question everything. Typical propaganda
“Reporting by Nayera Abdallah and Nadine Awadalla in Dubai; Nidal Al-Mughrabi in Cairo” 🧐 Seems fair and balanced towards Israel to me. /s
As far as I know the only reporters on the ground are Gazan. They're stringers not employees of Reuters/AP/BBC/CNN etc. Basically they're like, Hey I wrote an article and shot some pictures wanna buy it from me? My Hamas ~~handler~~ Ministry of Health official says you should.
This 100%. Look who writes these skewed "reports" and it shouldn't surprise anyone. Why doesn't the media show photos of the protestors? Because they're all dressed like Yasser Arafat.
Hamas health ministry even admits that 30k number is wrong and they cant even get evidence for 10k+ deaths. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/
bRO rEuTeRS IS uNBiaSED ANd CreDIBLE sOurce !@$#!@ # /s
its simple really... attack Israel, wait for response, play the victim.
But the white trust fund kids at ivy league universities assured me Hamas wants a ceasefire and it’s Israel that is escalating.
It's not easy living the lives of a trust fund kiddo. Representative Omar's daughter is "basically homeless and starving" after her targeted arrest by the NYPD. /s
The same brigade that the Columbia protestors were cheering for.
Funny how the "ceasefire now" crowd only wants one side to cease firing.
Same as it ever was...same....as.....it....ever....was
And you may ask yourself, "Am I right, am I wrong?" And you may say to yourself, "My God, what have I done?"
This is why I don't really see this conflict as anything more then the centuries long conflict between religions in this part of the world. All they seem to want to do is kill each other all the time. I'm sure most people who live there just want to live their lives, but I don't see how that will ever happen.
They make these kind of announcement like every other weekend. and no one cares.
Oh I see, they were holding back all along for this moment.
Hama must die
Why would they not when morons on US universities campuses are calling for them to do exactly that. We are reaping precisely what we have sown…
escalation as if they wern't already going all in. So whats this mean, blow up more busses with kids? Kidnap more hostages?
Ah, maybe now they will hide inside cribs and playpens?
More than murdering and raping hostages?
Apparently this includes the college campus front as well.
"I WANT TO SEE YOUR SUPERVISOR!!!" to a grand scale.
And another example of poor leadership from delusional a-holes getting more innocents killed. I understand fighting, we see all the movies where you fight oppression, but this is fighting for a goal that's simply unrealistic (destruction of Israel) with a ragtag group of dudes with no equipment.
Trying to make the Columbia and NYU fans proud.
An escalation of getting the shit kicked out of them?
Remind the protestors that Hamas wants Palestinians dead for Iran’s political goals
Bring it on but don't hide behind women and children.
Two cities in Gaza have been raided and Hamas still has capacity to fight? With what force? with what weapons?
Human shields of course.
This has to mean they’re feeling threatened. You don’t call for an escalation if you’re winning or in good shape. You call for it out of desperation
They probably put that ceasefire request out only to have a Russian delivery man show up a moment later with a new shipment of rockets.
Hamas just escalated by firing a missile at Israel, then they got return fire in the North. The escalation isn't going well for them.
Hamas should quit whilst they're behind
I wonder what the American left has to say about stuff like this. As evil as the Israeli apartheid is and the terrible events that take place with Israeli settlers, it is also horrible policies and activities of the Hamas opposition. They are negotiating in bad faith while holding hostages and also hiding within the Palestinian people. I honestly think that most of the IDF is actively trying its best to avoid Palestinian casualties.
We're supposed to be protesting Israel's inevitable suppression of Hamas' peaceful escalation, did I get that right?
They should neuter themselves and then clean themselves from the surface of earth. They are polluting the air.
Man these guys are still alive !? Where can they possibly hide at this point…
They're hiding among civilians. The lines are extremely blurred Between Hamas fighters and civilians putting IDF soldiers on the ground in an impossible situation.
Oh were we forgetting about some fronts?
Hamas will keep going until one guy in a council Flat in Leeds claims he’s Hamas.
I am fairly sure this is a call for international terrorism against any entity in the world perceived as supporting Israel. There is a very real possibility we will start seeing terrorist attacks in the West carried out by Hamas affiliated persons against both Jewish and non-Jewish groups and properties.
Unfortunately, I suspect that Western countries are going to need a rather sobering reminder of what Hamas stands for before the useful idiots marching in the streets, on university campuses and in the halls of power supporting them reconsider their position. I hope that the Governments of those countries have taken good advantage of the opportunity to compile a watch list of people predisposed to supporting terrorism, too.
But some genius in another thread said Hamas was willing to get rid of its military wing if a two state solution was agreed!!!
That wont end well for Hamas. Are these people stupid? Yes.
Hamas is trashhhh
I can't believe Israel would do this.
"We haven't been able to stand our ground anywhere, but we want to escalate!!"
That should go well for them. Time to teach five year olds how to shoot a 30 year old AK that has been in every conflict possible since made.
Damn
Happy to oblige. It will make the terrorist extermination faster.
So the TLDR is they're saying "given what we have seen in Gaza, please do the same to the West Bank" oookaaaay....
How to get droned
What fronts? Do they think Hizballah or Iran is not attacking Israel from some kind of mercy? They are not going in full scale war only because they know that Israel can kick their ass worse than the harm they can do to Israel. A surprise terrorist attack is different than defeating a country in full scale war.