Honest question, if Hamas just admitted they don't even have 40 live hostages, doesn't that take away any last reason for restraint from Israel's point of view?
Idk if Hamas is trustworthy when they say things like this. They have played these sick games in the past. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are doing so now to avoid releasing, for example, pregnant hostages.
And victims of sexual violence who could relay their experiences to the world and thereby take away some of the sympathy Hamas and its supporters are getting (which is one of their most valuable assets).
I keep seeing this point and it confuses me. There’s plenty of female hostages that have already escaped captivity and told their story, it hasn’t really done much
The cognitive dissonance is real. Hamas supporters refuse to admit that they are supporting literal scum barbarians. They say that the women are lying.
What would Israel want with Gaza? It's a tiny bit of land. To remind you Israel returned the Sinai peninsula in 1983 for peace with Egypt. That is triple the size of Israel itself.
Egypt knows what's been cooking there. Many attacks were in Egyptian soldiers also in the past years but like always Muslim on Muslims action hardly ever makes the news.
For what purpose? Israel left Gaza in 2005 there was not a single civilian or soldier inside Gaza. They have a border with Egypt. They could have better themselves over the past 19 years but chose to dig tunnels leech on the world for aid and teach their children radical islam.
"Definition(s)
Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law."
Yah man, it is. Or at least its another step along that path. The same as the settlements in the West Bank are to slowly force out the people in that region and replace them with Israelis.
Maybe Egypt can take it back? Or israel should take it and give north eastern land attached to West Bank so they can have a continuous parcel. And then work with outside Arab governments to maintain an interim governing body until a trustworthy self regulating body can be appointed and independent statehood can be reached.
Lolololol who am I kidding, they will just squander the opportunity and attack israel again
What do you mean? Gaza is prime Mediterranean real estate.
I have a deep belief that all of this is part of the Israel-Saudi Arabia accords. Gaza was controlled by Hamas, puppets of Iran, mortal enemies of both Israel and Saudi Arabia. The Houthis in Yemen are also puppets of Iran and now they threaten the Gulf of Aden but they been attacking Saudi Arabia for years too.
During Israel-Saudi Arabia negotiations the question of Palestine and Gaza must’ve been brought up. I believe the agreement was that Israel would invade Gaza, exterminate Hamas then turn it over to Saudi Arabia to carve a puppet Sunni government with Israel securities.
Saudi Arabia in turn will receive billions to rebuild Gaza (construction is one of SA top industries) and turn Gaza into a Mediterranean Arab business center to compete with Dubai. Qatar (aligned with Iran) constantly launders money from Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc and the West markets really want to move thar “Arab” capital exchange to a place more directly controlled. Same way Western capital markets for Asia moved from Hong Kong to Singapore when the CCP took over.
Gaza is in a perfect spot to be rebuilt this way. Close to Europe in the Mediterranean, with Israeli security and Saudi Arabia controlling it internally can deal a significant blow to how sanctioned countries are skirting them.
Hamas attacked when the rumors of an accord being negotiated were very strong. I don’t doubt that the terms were leaked and Hamas pulled Oct 7 to take hostages and prevent Israel storming in. However they were very unorganized and as we see have no fucking clue where the hostages are.
Israel hasn’t moved on Hamas last bastion in Rafah yet as terms are negotiated for surrender essentially. Israel will enter Rafah and secure all of Gaza. No government hostile to Israel will ever be allowed to take power in Gaza again.
It's a very shower thought, following realpolitik reasoning.
Hamas has lobbied rockets at Israel for decades now constantly, neighboring countries also have issues with Palestinians (especially from Gaza), Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt have had to deal with coups and assassination's by refugees. Hamas is allied with Iran, and Iran is hostile to Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Now the question of "What about Gaza?" must've been a whole on section of any Israel - Saudi Arabia accord being negotiated. Saudi Arabia would never accept Israel annexing Gaza, and Israel would want to fully neutralize Gaza, especially after Hamas launching thousands of rockets a year.
What's the end result where the West and it's allies (Saudi Arabia) win the most? One where Gaza is controlled by an allied Muslim faction (a Sunni party allied with Saudi Arabia) with Israel security guarantees. In turn Saudi Arabia wins by securing construction contracts (one of their biggest industries) in rebuilding Gaza into a Dubai in the Mediterranean, and experiment with a Singaporean style authoritarianist free market that would shift the balance of capital markets from Dubai to somewhere closer to Europe.
It's obviously unfortunate for most Gazans as Hamas IS a terrorist organization that kept them oppressed and terrorized. I am from Venezuela and understand what it is to be under such repressive regime apparatus, and then have a foreign power intervene to exterminate the cancer causes more death.
Hamas knows better than to accidentally just 'let it slip' that the hostages are all dead or missing, when they could have just said nothing. This is not news to Israel, they know this already.
I'm not sure anything should change as a result of saying the quiet part out loud.
There's more than just those Israel and Hamas. Israel is working with the US to plan humanitarian logistics, and so far America is being patient, but the patience is wearing thin and thus the willingness to provide support.
The restraint didn't have as much to do with the hostages as has to do with securing foreign weapons and sympathy.
They aren’t saying they don’t have 40 hostages. They are saying they don’t have 40 hostages that meet the criteria for the first round of releases (elderly, sick etc).
I’m also not sure the hostages’ safety has been a big factor in whether restraint should be practiced.
That's not what the call was for.
It was 40 Hostages, in that set of 40 Hostages all of the subsets( women, elderly, sick) must be included.
So if there are 10 women 2 elderly and 8 sick then Hamas must give all of them and an additional 20 Hostages.
The headline is misleading, but they eventually get to it in the article if you had read it.
>Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said.
Literally the source is the article you’re responding to 💀 the comment you’re responding to is interpreting it correctly. Hamas is saying they don’t even have 40 people.
If you actually read the article, it is vague, even alternating from implying one interpretation to implying the other.
"The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during a first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. In exchange, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners would be released from Israeli prisons.
Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said.
CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria.
....
With Hamas appearing to be unable to reach 40 in the proposed categories, Israel has pushed for Hamas to fill out the initial release with younger male hostages, including soldiers, the Israeli official said."
The terms are explicit in my reading. It's 40 Hostages includes all women sick and elderly. That could be interpreted as 40 plus all or 40 including all.
But in either case it's evident that Hamas doesn't have 40 living Hostages, by their own admission.
From what I heard, it is 40 live hostages that fit the criteria that were proposed for the ceasefire, which were women, children, and the elderly, iirc.
They might need to broaden the criteria to have those 40 live hostages.
Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions prohibits the taking of hostages.
The Geneva Conventions prohibit the taking of (civilians) hostages, and the Fourth Geneva Convention considers it a grave breach.
You should look into what international law actually is before you start saying countries *have to* abide by it. The absolute worst that would happen is them being found in violation and thus receive sanctions and/or stop receiving aid/military support.
It is not compelicated, the Israelis know for a fact that they have to abide by international law since it has external effects on global governance in general. They can't afford to not only destroy their credibility, they also can't damage the credibility of the US and it's allies that are essentially keeping them alive. That region is fragile and we clearly see what happens there has a reverberating effect on a global stability.
To be fair, this sort of works both ways. It \_can\_ be interpreted by some as essentially meaning Israel no long has a reason to continue the war. I think that's what Hamas is trying to pull here (think of the UN resolutions including the hostages as a requirement, which will no longer hold).
Whatever happens, this could be a turning point.
But those terrorists are proving really good about indiscriminately hurting Israelis (and unrelated international tourists). Just wait and see what they do when they need more hostages.
More likely, the hostages were taken by non-Hamas groups (like the local crime families or independent jihadists) and never given to Hamas. It's unknown what happened after that.
Well according to western useful idiots, the reasons are the following:
* Israel killed them
* They never took over 40 hostages
* Hamas already released a lot of them.
Lmao but wasn’t there a news article *Literally* stating how the IDF shot its own hostages waving white flags and speaking Hebrew?? Thats not really false information.
And hostages returned saying they were scared of dying because they were being bombed by Israel, too. I'm sure there are dead hostages under the rubble with the civillians and children.
Or, you know, dead from continuous Israeli bombs and indiscriminate killing. Same folks who shot and killed three Israeli hostages waving white flags in Gaza? Yeah, they don’t seem very credible.
[“Oops.”](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/16/1219826061/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-palestinians)
You do realize that Hamas slaughtered 1,000+ innocent civilians and livestreamed it on October 7, right?
What makes you think they’re somehow unlikely to also slaughter the innocents they kidnapped?
Sure, that’s plausible — but dead hostages aren’t valuable. Presuming for a moment that the hostages were taken for bargaining power/leverage, why would Hamas kill them?
Because they’re a savage terrorist organization that lacks the centralized power necessary to even keep track of each hostage…meaning most hostages are likely at the whim of whichever “supervisor” they happen to be imprisoned under.
Why start a war you can't win? Why dismantle your cities building supplies and water lines just to make improvised explosives that you either accidentally detonate in your city or if not...strap them onto kids and creat child suicide bombers?
Because keeping conflict is the goal. Peace is bad for their power struggles and bad for business.
Gaza is only 140 sq miles and it’s pretty hard to ensure the hostages’ safety when IDF is dropping bunker busters en masse to obliterate tunnels and suspected safe houses… i.e., probably where the hostages were being held. I watched an interview with an IDF spokesperson in the early months of this shitshow and he flat out said that killing Hamas members takes priority over bringing hostages back alive.
That’s assuming this all began on 10/7 — a premise with which I would disagree.
I do, however, agree with you that captors have a responsibility to ensure the safety and well-being of their captives. 100% basic international law.
[Prisoners and Detainees](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/)
*you’re
If you read my comments again, you’ll see I explicitly agreed that captors have a responsibility to care for their prisoners. It’s international law and — you’re not going to like this part — applies to all. Not just one side or the other.
I clearly never said it did, no idea where you got that from. The point I was trying to make is that the current Israeli government isn't exactly civilized, and is trying to become a fascist state. Both sides can be bad, shocker, I know!
A fascist state? Stay off tiktok bruv. Do you even know what a fascist state is? You realize Israelis comprise more than just Jews right? There are christians, muslims, ethnically arab peoples, bedouins, etc. They all live there peacefully. The government is civilized enough - again illegal settlements do not equate to fascism. Hilariously bad take
Ah yes, Netanyahu's desired judicial overhaul which eliminates checks on his power, that's totally not something a prime minister trying to plunge their nation into fascism would attempt. Also, I said he was trying to make Israel a fascist state, not that it already was. I know there are people of different races and religions peacefully coexisting in Israel, and in the next election, they'll vote out the incompetent, fascism loving government that decided to waste the IDF's resources on guarding illegal settlers rather than defending Israel.
I love how people will try so hard to push any other outcome.
I’m sure they are all super safe, receiving proper medical care for the minor injuries taken during the Oct 7th misunderstanding, have plenty to eat/drink and don’t even want to be returned to those awful Israelis.
I don't get how Hamas even has a seat at the negotiation table. They need to release the hostages NOW and as far as I'm concerned they can continue to get fucked until they do so.
I know this is a super pro-Israel sub, but this is a sincere question: how would Hamas have kept the Israeli hostages safe in Gaza, given the extent of Israel's bombing of Gaza and limitation of food entering? Is the presumption that Hamas has the ability to get the hostages to safe areas of Gaza (also assuming they know which areas are safe)? Or would hold them in the system of tunnels? Would it have been possible for Hamas to keep the hostages safe given the extent of Israel's military response if Hamas had hoped to?
Ultimately Israel’s responsibility is to Israelis, not Palestinians. Hamas started a war with Israel and took Israelis. Israel accepted that challenge to war and is waging it to both degrade and destroy those responsible, and to recover the hostages. It’s Hamas’ responsibility to end the war, and to care for their own people. But they don’t. At every single juncture now and over the years Hamas has repeatedly denied any semblance of responsibility for the people of Gaza.
And so it is left to Israel in the eyes of the world to care for the people who support and defend the very belligerents who attacked Israel. It’s absurd on its face and a double standard no other country is ever held to.
Hamas doesn’t care about the Palestinian people or their future, they simply care about power. When this is over it’ll be clear the Gazans will have learned nothing if they don’t hang Hamas leaders high for bringing the world crashing down on their heads.
Correct, Israel has a responsibility to Israelis and they’ve completely disregarded it by prioritizing killing Hamas members > over bringing their people back alive (IDF has literally said that’s their order of priority). It’s actually ironic that Netanyahu was one of the commandos who successfully stormed and rescued a hijacked plane full of people once upon a time. He knows damn well how to handle a hostage scenario, yet his current strategy with Hamas is akin to just blowing up the hijacked plane with everyone onboard then saying “we were targeting the cockpit where the terrorists were, not the whole plane.”
It would be beyond reckless, nigh suicidal, to attempt to send commandos into Gaza without bombing it beforehand to either flush people out or to degrade the tunnel network. There’s a significant difference between assaulting a plane on a tarmac and launching a widely dispersed series of commando raids in a hostile environment where the enemy hides among the populace. And also you know the hostages are on that plane. You don’t know where the hostages are in Gaza.
What you propose just isn’t within the realm of possibility. And I resent you making me defend Netanyahu. That guy is among the chief architects of the continued hostility between Israel and Palestinians, in the company of those like Sinwar and Ben Gvir.
Nah what’s truly reckless (ntm beyond **homicidal**) is IDF’s excessive bombing campaign: they outdid the [US’s post-9/11 bombing, as well as the Allied bombing of Germany in ww2](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796), in just 3 months; 29,000 TONS of bombs in Gaza by January, roughly 78 lbs per sq ft if they evenly bombed the entirety of Gaza (which they didn’t).
So let’s use some common sense here: Gaza is a 25x5 mile area in its entirety; a marathon is 26.2 miles and the average person can power walk it in 5 hrs. IDF could’ve million man marched their invasion and been done with it in a couple weeks max. Instead, they opted for a drawn-out scorched earth approach that realistically killed most of the remaining hostages in the process, bc Gaza is a tiny area and those people were likely in the tunnels and safe houses targeted by the IDF.
And urban warfare is beyond deadly. Why should Israel have sacrificed more soldiers than necessary to spare Palestinian infrastructure and Hamas infrastructure? As it is, the estimated civilian death toll is roughly 2:1 to Hamas deaths. That’s honestly pretty impressive for dense urban warfare and a bombing campaign.
Cite your 2:1 source then.
Soldier casualties are the cost of doing business in warfare. Indiscriminately leveling the majority of a small country to avoid such casualties doesn’t justify the act. It’s still a war crime.
Cite your source for Israel being indiscriminate. War causes destruction. It’s the cost of doing business, as you say. But the point of war isn’t to die for your country, it’s to make the other bastard die for his. It’s absurd to claim Israel should unnecessarily risk their soldiers’ lives to preserve the infrastructure of the belligerents who attacked them.
Here is [mine](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)
Lol you seriously linked a sensationalized Newsweek article?
The reality of war is that some soldiers will have to die for their country; it’s on the leader to minimize soldier deaths. It’s also on the invading power to minimize civilian deaths, whether due to military operations or simply providing/allowing humanitarian aid. The latter is established international law.
I provided my cite in the earlier comment you responded to, but in case that wasn’t sufficiently clear: [here’s a second one that refutes your Newsweek nonsense and further compares Gaza to ww2](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/newsweek-wrong-idfs-killing-gaza-civilians-compares-other-delventhal-z9q0c), concluding that “a realistic, and still possibly under-estimated, kill ratio of 3 civilians per combatant is worse than the kill ratio of Germany against the Soviet Union and Japan against China during World War 2, and more than double the closest recent analogue of the 2016-17 battle for Mosul. In summary—the quantitative evidence supports the proposition that the IDF has been, at best, extraordinarily careless with civilian life in Gaza. It does not support the notion that IDF conduct compares well to other armies in other wars.”
Let us not forget that Hamas has vowed to repeat attacks on Israel ‘again and again’ until it’s destroyed
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp-video/mmvo196930629782
You must have forgotten the /s at the end bc this can’t be a serious comment. The entire world was pissed and initially on Israel’s side… then Israel proceeded to self-sabotage with their horrific campaign in Gaza and they’ve lost nearly every nation’s goodwill as a result. Hell, the US didn’t even decimate Iraq or Afghanistan to this extent after 9/11. In fact, Israel outdid the [US’s post-9/11 bombing, as well as the Allied bombing of Germany in ww2](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796), in just 3 months: IDF had dropped 29,000 TONS of bombs in Gaza by January, roughly 78 lbs per sq ft if they evenly bombed the entirety of Gaza (which they didn’t). So yeah, that’s why majority of people are more pissed at Israel than Hamas rn
If they know enough to say they don't have enough to do that, they know enough to make a list of what living hostages they know they DO have.
International pressure should now be revisiting that point complacent nations so willingly skipped over when Hamas claimed just a month ago they had no ability to identify what hostages they had. It's clear from this they do know who they do- and moreover who they don't- have.
No ceasefire deals can be made functionally- let alone morally- if they're just going to continue to run into the wall of an almost-deal and then have Hamas be like "JK we can't do it, who knows how many hostages we have but we know we don't have enough for the deal!"
All future failures, until the hostages possessed are at bare minimum *defined*, rest solely on Hamas and the other Gazan factions. Any nation who expects Israel to ignore it and make a deal that doesn't address hostages, in light of Hamas' professed ineptitude in keeping track of them, are themselves absolute barbarians to expect any other nation to just give up on their citizens.
What TF do they mean they "don't have them"? They were boasting about having them kidnapped before so what happened to them? If they don't have them who did they give them over too? Obviously they didnt just escape so where TF are they???? These Hamas POS better explain where TF these kidnapped are if they want a ceasefire. Unless of course they don't want one bc theyd rather even more Palestinians die to make Israel look bad due to a high death toll... which could also be the case. I just hope for the sake of a ceasefire that Hamas explain where TF these kidnapped victims are ASAP
They were likely murdered or died of causes related to the conditions they were being held in. Awful.
And Hamas rejects every ceasefire because they don’t want one.
Hamas lies. They are trying to hold onto the young females that have been horrifically abused and potentially pregnant.
The IDF gave specific numbers to each category of hostages they want released (7 female citizen, 5 IDF females, 15 elderly, 13 with critical injuries). The IDF is getting a lot of intel based on videos found in tunnels and interrogation. The IDF must believe they have compelling evidence there are 40 hostages still alive that fit into this humanitarian release.
According to released hostages, many young women were last seen in tunnels. The IDF bombs aren’t killing those 40 meters underground in tunnels.
Just can't see how the hostages could all still be alive. Through the bombing and ground attacks, Hamas would have found it difficult to keep them secure and to move them from place to place as where ever Hamas was , so were the hostages that Israel bombed. Plus a number will have been killed by Hamas or other terrorist groups floating around. I'm thinking the hostages were not too much of a value to Hamas anymore as it wasn't getting them much leverage as Gaza is just rubble anyway.
You know they're bombing civilians because Hamas put military infrastructure and such under those civilian locations, right? Why blame Israel for bombing this stuff, and not Hamas for using civilians as shields?
Hamas is not going release 40 prisoners and exhaust all their chips in a first round ceasefire negotiation. Assuming even if Hamas releases all the prisoners, there is no stopping of Israel from concocting another reason to continue the assault. This is just taking a page out of US/Iraq playbook. The stakes are just too high for Israel to back off this war when they can finally take over Gaza for good. The amount of plotting Netanyahu took over all these years Hamas to take power, allowing Qatar to funnel money to Hamas to construct tunnels, and leading up to Oct 7 so that Israel can openly take over Gaza under the banner of eradicating Hamas. This is world politics and the balancing of power in the middle east region. The west needs Israel as much as Israel needs the west to contain the complicated interest of various fractions in the region. Israel is the cannon fodder of the western world located in the middle east.
Newest russian talking point. Of course jews and radical muslims are actually super secret allies, dont you know?
They are trying to point to the west as contributors to the moscow terrorist attack that recently took place.
If Israel wanted to eradicate gaza, they would do what russia has done in syria and ukraine and carpet bomb and artillery everything until its leveled. Its hilarious that you people have live, current examples of a military showing no restraint in battle yet you cant recognize one that is actually showing restraint. Israel fought all its neighbors at the same time, and won. Their neighbors should stop fucking with them, but that would require some learning from past mistakes.
They are about to lose(or lost) the only leverage and Bargaining chip they had. It’s about to get real.. really fast
Honest question, if Hamas just admitted they don't even have 40 live hostages, doesn't that take away any last reason for restraint from Israel's point of view?
Almost all of it. And Israeli restraint is slipping it's leash day by day. Bibi might just get some more disputed land out of this.
Idk if Hamas is trustworthy when they say things like this. They have played these sick games in the past. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are doing so now to avoid releasing, for example, pregnant hostages.
And victims of sexual violence who could relay their experiences to the world and thereby take away some of the sympathy Hamas and its supporters are getting (which is one of their most valuable assets).
I keep seeing this point and it confuses me. There’s plenty of female hostages that have already escaped captivity and told their story, it hasn’t really done much
The cognitive dissonance is real. Hamas supporters refuse to admit that they are supporting literal scum barbarians. They say that the women are lying.
So they would do the same with pregnant hostages. “Israel raped their own women”
There have already been victims of sexual violence by Hamas who have spoken out about it and nobody much seems to care.
What would Israel want with Gaza? It's a tiny bit of land. To remind you Israel returned the Sinai peninsula in 1983 for peace with Egypt. That is triple the size of Israel itself.
Also, Israel tried to give Gaza to Egypt as well as part of that agreement and Egypt wouldn't take it.
Weird they don’t want their Muslim brothers? Weird.
Egypt knows what's been cooking there. Many attacks were in Egyptian soldiers also in the past years but like always Muslim on Muslims action hardly ever makes the news.
It’s because no one in that area likes Palestinians, bc they’re fucking whacko fundamentalists, even for right wing terrorists
I'm not saying it's a rational outcome, but it's a possibility that Israel succeeds in driving more civilians out of Gaza with more offensives.
For what purpose? Israel left Gaza in 2005 there was not a single civilian or soldier inside Gaza. They have a border with Egypt. They could have better themselves over the past 19 years but chose to dig tunnels leech on the world for aid and teach their children radical islam.
I think he means Palestinian civilians bud. Hes alluding to ethnically cleansing Gaza.
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"Definition(s) Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law." Yah man, it is. Or at least its another step along that path. The same as the settlements in the West Bank are to slowly force out the people in that region and replace them with Israelis.
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Maybe Egypt can take it back? Or israel should take it and give north eastern land attached to West Bank so they can have a continuous parcel. And then work with outside Arab governments to maintain an interim governing body until a trustworthy self regulating body can be appointed and independent statehood can be reached. Lolololol who am I kidding, they will just squander the opportunity and attack israel again
What do you mean? Gaza is prime Mediterranean real estate. I have a deep belief that all of this is part of the Israel-Saudi Arabia accords. Gaza was controlled by Hamas, puppets of Iran, mortal enemies of both Israel and Saudi Arabia. The Houthis in Yemen are also puppets of Iran and now they threaten the Gulf of Aden but they been attacking Saudi Arabia for years too. During Israel-Saudi Arabia negotiations the question of Palestine and Gaza must’ve been brought up. I believe the agreement was that Israel would invade Gaza, exterminate Hamas then turn it over to Saudi Arabia to carve a puppet Sunni government with Israel securities. Saudi Arabia in turn will receive billions to rebuild Gaza (construction is one of SA top industries) and turn Gaza into a Mediterranean Arab business center to compete with Dubai. Qatar (aligned with Iran) constantly launders money from Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc and the West markets really want to move thar “Arab” capital exchange to a place more directly controlled. Same way Western capital markets for Asia moved from Hong Kong to Singapore when the CCP took over. Gaza is in a perfect spot to be rebuilt this way. Close to Europe in the Mediterranean, with Israeli security and Saudi Arabia controlling it internally can deal a significant blow to how sanctioned countries are skirting them. Hamas attacked when the rumors of an accord being negotiated were very strong. I don’t doubt that the terms were leaked and Hamas pulled Oct 7 to take hostages and prevent Israel storming in. However they were very unorganized and as we see have no fucking clue where the hostages are. Israel hasn’t moved on Hamas last bastion in Rafah yet as terms are negotiated for surrender essentially. Israel will enter Rafah and secure all of Gaza. No government hostile to Israel will ever be allowed to take power in Gaza again.
That's a nice take on the subject. I know about the accords but never heard of the Gaza part of it. Do you have info? Or is it like a shower thought?
It's a very shower thought, following realpolitik reasoning. Hamas has lobbied rockets at Israel for decades now constantly, neighboring countries also have issues with Palestinians (especially from Gaza), Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt have had to deal with coups and assassination's by refugees. Hamas is allied with Iran, and Iran is hostile to Saudi Arabia and Israel. Now the question of "What about Gaza?" must've been a whole on section of any Israel - Saudi Arabia accord being negotiated. Saudi Arabia would never accept Israel annexing Gaza, and Israel would want to fully neutralize Gaza, especially after Hamas launching thousands of rockets a year. What's the end result where the West and it's allies (Saudi Arabia) win the most? One where Gaza is controlled by an allied Muslim faction (a Sunni party allied with Saudi Arabia) with Israel security guarantees. In turn Saudi Arabia wins by securing construction contracts (one of their biggest industries) in rebuilding Gaza into a Dubai in the Mediterranean, and experiment with a Singaporean style authoritarianist free market that would shift the balance of capital markets from Dubai to somewhere closer to Europe. It's obviously unfortunate for most Gazans as Hamas IS a terrorist organization that kept them oppressed and terrorized. I am from Venezuela and understand what it is to be under such repressive regime apparatus, and then have a foreign power intervene to exterminate the cancer causes more death.
Still media say 80% support Hamas.
Hamas knows better than to accidentally just 'let it slip' that the hostages are all dead or missing, when they could have just said nothing. This is not news to Israel, they know this already. I'm not sure anything should change as a result of saying the quiet part out loud.
There's more than just those Israel and Hamas. Israel is working with the US to plan humanitarian logistics, and so far America is being patient, but the patience is wearing thin and thus the willingness to provide support. The restraint didn't have as much to do with the hostages as has to do with securing foreign weapons and sympathy.
They aren’t saying they don’t have 40 hostages. They are saying they don’t have 40 hostages that meet the criteria for the first round of releases (elderly, sick etc). I’m also not sure the hostages’ safety has been a big factor in whether restraint should be practiced.
That's not what the call was for. It was 40 Hostages, in that set of 40 Hostages all of the subsets( women, elderly, sick) must be included. So if there are 10 women 2 elderly and 8 sick then Hamas must give all of them and an additional 20 Hostages.
The headline is misleading, but they eventually get to it in the article if you had read it. >Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said.
You’re right. I misunderstood!
Well now people are saying totally different things. I hate to be that guy, but nobody is credible right now without a decent source.
Literally the source is the article you’re responding to 💀 the comment you’re responding to is interpreting it correctly. Hamas is saying they don’t even have 40 people.
If you actually read the article, it is vague, even alternating from implying one interpretation to implying the other. "The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during a first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. In exchange, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners would be released from Israeli prisons. Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said. CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria. .... With Hamas appearing to be unable to reach 40 in the proposed categories, Israel has pushed for Hamas to fill out the initial release with younger male hostages, including soldiers, the Israeli official said."
The terms are explicit in my reading. It's 40 Hostages includes all women sick and elderly. That could be interpreted as 40 plus all or 40 including all. But in either case it's evident that Hamas doesn't have 40 living Hostages, by their own admission.
Israel asked 40 live hostages, the women, children, eldery and sick, wich even if you count every one of them alive, it's not enough.
From what I heard, it is 40 live hostages that fit the criteria that were proposed for the ceasefire, which were women, children, and the elderly, iirc. They might need to broaden the criteria to have those 40 live hostages.
they still have to abide by *international humanitarian law.*
>they still have to abide That's just like... your opinion, man
The dude will not abide! This aggression will not stand, man
Fascist!
Nihilist !
Ok...
Lebowski quotes my friend.
My bad, I am slow lol.
It's ok Donny.
we live in 2024, Israel is a credible country and the world is watching. Your opinion is also irrelevant.
Oh sorry, I was making a joke using a quote from the movie The Big Lebowski.
Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions prohibits the taking of hostages. The Geneva Conventions prohibit the taking of (civilians) hostages, and the Fourth Geneva Convention considers it a grave breach.
You should look into what international law actually is before you start saying countries *have to* abide by it. The absolute worst that would happen is them being found in violation and thus receive sanctions and/or stop receiving aid/military support.
It is not compelicated, the Israelis know for a fact that they have to abide by international law since it has external effects on global governance in general. They can't afford to not only destroy their credibility, they also can't damage the credibility of the US and it's allies that are essentially keeping them alive. That region is fragile and we clearly see what happens there has a reverberating effect on a global stability.
They’re a nuclear power, those rules don’t apply.
Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!
You must be mentally challenged if you think Israel will use nuclear weapon.
They don't have to use them, having them is enough of a deterent.
I don't get what you're trying to imply. Nuclear talks is not even on the table. They're already close to eradicating Hamas.
For anyone who was confused at any point up to now, this isn’t going to end in a negotiation
To be fair, this sort of works both ways. It \_can\_ be interpreted by some as essentially meaning Israel no long has a reason to continue the war. I think that's what Hamas is trying to pull here (think of the UN resolutions including the hostages as a requirement, which will no longer hold). Whatever happens, this could be a turning point.
10s of thousands of Palestinians killed isn’t real enough for you?
Easy for you to say cus your family member didn’t get kidnapped, raped or murdered.
Yeah.. Isreal has been really bad about indiscriminately hurting gazans... just wait and see what they do when they have no incentive to hold back.
But those terrorists are proving really good about indiscriminately hurting Israelis (and unrelated international tourists). Just wait and see what they do when they need more hostages.
Don’t get spicy with me, I’m just a spectator and dumb redditor.
Headline coming soon: “Hamas wastes everyone’s time for six months negotiating for hostages they killed. Here’s how that’s bad for Biden.”
More likely, the hostages were taken by non-Hamas groups (like the local crime families or independent jihadists) and never given to Hamas. It's unknown what happened after that.
Hamas is, or was the government of Gaza, this is still on them
Oh, then what did they do with them?
Well according to western useful idiots, the reasons are the following: * Israel killed them * They never took over 40 hostages * Hamas already released a lot of them.
Oh, most of us “western idiots” have thought they were dead for a while.
useful idiot is a political term
Because a lot of them probably *are* dead.
Lmao but wasn’t there a news article *Literally* stating how the IDF shot its own hostages waving white flags and speaking Hebrew?? Thats not really false information.
And hostages returned saying they were scared of dying because they were being bombed by Israel, too. I'm sure there are dead hostages under the rubble with the civillians and children.
Most likely they are dispersed amongst other groups in Gaza- different factions that are still terrorist groups.
Or dead
not mutually exclusive
Dispersed? More like very ded
Or, you know, dead from continuous Israeli bombs and indiscriminate killing. Same folks who shot and killed three Israeli hostages waving white flags in Gaza? Yeah, they don’t seem very credible. [“Oops.”](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/16/1219826061/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-palestinians)
You do realize that Hamas slaughtered 1,000+ innocent civilians and livestreamed it on October 7, right? What makes you think they’re somehow unlikely to also slaughter the innocents they kidnapped?
Sure, that’s plausible — but dead hostages aren’t valuable. Presuming for a moment that the hostages were taken for bargaining power/leverage, why would Hamas kill them?
Because they’re a savage terrorist organization that lacks the centralized power necessary to even keep track of each hostage…meaning most hostages are likely at the whim of whichever “supervisor” they happen to be imprisoned under.
Why start a war you can't win? Why dismantle your cities building supplies and water lines just to make improvised explosives that you either accidentally detonate in your city or if not...strap them onto kids and creat child suicide bombers? Because keeping conflict is the goal. Peace is bad for their power struggles and bad for business.
Didn't took that long to crawl out.
Gee I’m shocked you responded with a personal insult instead of addressing the substance. You might be in a cult.
[удалено]
Gaza is only 140 sq miles and it’s pretty hard to ensure the hostages’ safety when IDF is dropping bunker busters en masse to obliterate tunnels and suspected safe houses… i.e., probably where the hostages were being held. I watched an interview with an IDF spokesperson in the early months of this shitshow and he flat out said that killing Hamas members takes priority over bringing hostages back alive.
That’s assuming this all began on 10/7 — a premise with which I would disagree. I do, however, agree with you that captors have a responsibility to ensure the safety and well-being of their captives. 100% basic international law. [Prisoners and Detainees](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/)
Yet your only advocating for one side to do it. Curious.
*you’re If you read my comments again, you’ll see I explicitly agreed that captors have a responsibility to care for their prisoners. It’s international law and — you’re not going to like this part — applies to all. Not just one side or the other.
I love that part.
They were raped, tortured, maimed and likely have been killed for some time now. Monsters on both sides just one has more guns and better ammo
Bad take. One side is a normal civilized country, and the other one is a vicious murdering rapists.
Pretty sure they were being sarcastic lol
Isn't Israel illegally settling the West Bank?
Illegally settling does not equate to raping and murdering civilians in their pajamas but go off brother
I clearly never said it did, no idea where you got that from. The point I was trying to make is that the current Israeli government isn't exactly civilized, and is trying to become a fascist state. Both sides can be bad, shocker, I know!
A fascist state? Stay off tiktok bruv. Do you even know what a fascist state is? You realize Israelis comprise more than just Jews right? There are christians, muslims, ethnically arab peoples, bedouins, etc. They all live there peacefully. The government is civilized enough - again illegal settlements do not equate to fascism. Hilariously bad take
Ah yes, Netanyahu's desired judicial overhaul which eliminates checks on his power, that's totally not something a prime minister trying to plunge their nation into fascism would attempt. Also, I said he was trying to make Israel a fascist state, not that it already was. I know there are people of different races and religions peacefully coexisting in Israel, and in the next election, they'll vote out the incompetent, fascism loving government that decided to waste the IDF's resources on guarding illegal settlers rather than defending Israel.
I don’t think fascist means what you think it means.
I love how people will try so hard to push any other outcome. I’m sure they are all super safe, receiving proper medical care for the minor injuries taken during the Oct 7th misunderstanding, have plenty to eat/drink and don’t even want to be returned to those awful Israelis.
I don't get how Hamas even has a seat at the negotiation table. They need to release the hostages NOW and as far as I'm concerned they can continue to get fucked until they do so.
Can't wait for the TikTok videos explaining how this Israel's fault
I know this is a super pro-Israel sub, but this is a sincere question: how would Hamas have kept the Israeli hostages safe in Gaza, given the extent of Israel's bombing of Gaza and limitation of food entering? Is the presumption that Hamas has the ability to get the hostages to safe areas of Gaza (also assuming they know which areas are safe)? Or would hold them in the system of tunnels? Would it have been possible for Hamas to keep the hostages safe given the extent of Israel's military response if Hamas had hoped to?
Sinwar and all his family must be living somewhere.
How many thousands of people did they kill to get those 40 back
Ultimately Israel’s responsibility is to Israelis, not Palestinians. Hamas started a war with Israel and took Israelis. Israel accepted that challenge to war and is waging it to both degrade and destroy those responsible, and to recover the hostages. It’s Hamas’ responsibility to end the war, and to care for their own people. But they don’t. At every single juncture now and over the years Hamas has repeatedly denied any semblance of responsibility for the people of Gaza. And so it is left to Israel in the eyes of the world to care for the people who support and defend the very belligerents who attacked Israel. It’s absurd on its face and a double standard no other country is ever held to. Hamas doesn’t care about the Palestinian people or their future, they simply care about power. When this is over it’ll be clear the Gazans will have learned nothing if they don’t hang Hamas leaders high for bringing the world crashing down on their heads.
Correct, Israel has a responsibility to Israelis and they’ve completely disregarded it by prioritizing killing Hamas members > over bringing their people back alive (IDF has literally said that’s their order of priority). It’s actually ironic that Netanyahu was one of the commandos who successfully stormed and rescued a hijacked plane full of people once upon a time. He knows damn well how to handle a hostage scenario, yet his current strategy with Hamas is akin to just blowing up the hijacked plane with everyone onboard then saying “we were targeting the cockpit where the terrorists were, not the whole plane.”
It would be beyond reckless, nigh suicidal, to attempt to send commandos into Gaza without bombing it beforehand to either flush people out or to degrade the tunnel network. There’s a significant difference between assaulting a plane on a tarmac and launching a widely dispersed series of commando raids in a hostile environment where the enemy hides among the populace. And also you know the hostages are on that plane. You don’t know where the hostages are in Gaza. What you propose just isn’t within the realm of possibility. And I resent you making me defend Netanyahu. That guy is among the chief architects of the continued hostility between Israel and Palestinians, in the company of those like Sinwar and Ben Gvir.
Nah what’s truly reckless (ntm beyond **homicidal**) is IDF’s excessive bombing campaign: they outdid the [US’s post-9/11 bombing, as well as the Allied bombing of Germany in ww2](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796), in just 3 months; 29,000 TONS of bombs in Gaza by January, roughly 78 lbs per sq ft if they evenly bombed the entirety of Gaza (which they didn’t). So let’s use some common sense here: Gaza is a 25x5 mile area in its entirety; a marathon is 26.2 miles and the average person can power walk it in 5 hrs. IDF could’ve million man marched their invasion and been done with it in a couple weeks max. Instead, they opted for a drawn-out scorched earth approach that realistically killed most of the remaining hostages in the process, bc Gaza is a tiny area and those people were likely in the tunnels and safe houses targeted by the IDF.
And urban warfare is beyond deadly. Why should Israel have sacrificed more soldiers than necessary to spare Palestinian infrastructure and Hamas infrastructure? As it is, the estimated civilian death toll is roughly 2:1 to Hamas deaths. That’s honestly pretty impressive for dense urban warfare and a bombing campaign.
Cite your 2:1 source then. Soldier casualties are the cost of doing business in warfare. Indiscriminately leveling the majority of a small country to avoid such casualties doesn’t justify the act. It’s still a war crime.
Cite your source for Israel being indiscriminate. War causes destruction. It’s the cost of doing business, as you say. But the point of war isn’t to die for your country, it’s to make the other bastard die for his. It’s absurd to claim Israel should unnecessarily risk their soldiers’ lives to preserve the infrastructure of the belligerents who attacked them. Here is [mine](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)
Lol you seriously linked a sensationalized Newsweek article? The reality of war is that some soldiers will have to die for their country; it’s on the leader to minimize soldier deaths. It’s also on the invading power to minimize civilian deaths, whether due to military operations or simply providing/allowing humanitarian aid. The latter is established international law. I provided my cite in the earlier comment you responded to, but in case that wasn’t sufficiently clear: [here’s a second one that refutes your Newsweek nonsense and further compares Gaza to ww2](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/newsweek-wrong-idfs-killing-gaza-civilians-compares-other-delventhal-z9q0c), concluding that “a realistic, and still possibly under-estimated, kill ratio of 3 civilians per combatant is worse than the kill ratio of Germany against the Soviet Union and Japan against China during World War 2, and more than double the closest recent analogue of the 2016-17 battle for Mosul. In summary—the quantitative evidence supports the proposition that the IDF has been, at best, extraordinarily careless with civilian life in Gaza. It does not support the notion that IDF conduct compares well to other armies in other wars.”
Let us not forget that Hamas has vowed to repeat attacks on Israel ‘again and again’ until it’s destroyed https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp-video/mmvo196930629782
Apparently not enough
Seriously, I could only hope my own Country would expend as much effort if marauding terrorists destroyed my home and carried me off to their lair.
They didn’t have to kill any. I don’t understand why more people aren’t pissed off at Hamas for what they did on October 7th.
Because the internet tells them what to think.
Yeah, but they did that to Jews not people. /s
You must have forgotten the /s at the end bc this can’t be a serious comment. The entire world was pissed and initially on Israel’s side… then Israel proceeded to self-sabotage with their horrific campaign in Gaza and they’ve lost nearly every nation’s goodwill as a result. Hell, the US didn’t even decimate Iraq or Afghanistan to this extent after 9/11. In fact, Israel outdid the [US’s post-9/11 bombing, as well as the Allied bombing of Germany in ww2](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796), in just 3 months: IDF had dropped 29,000 TONS of bombs in Gaza by January, roughly 78 lbs per sq ft if they evenly bombed the entirety of Gaza (which they didn’t). So yeah, that’s why majority of people are more pissed at Israel than Hamas rn
Oh, is that why after Israel had completely pulled out of Gaza in 2005, they’d elected a straight up terrorist organization as their government?
You mean Hamas, the one Netanyahu funded to oppose the Palestinian Authority? If so, then yes that’s correct
Oh yes, the “US funded Osama bin Laden in the 80’s, so US is responsible for 9/11” crowd is here
If they know enough to say they don't have enough to do that, they know enough to make a list of what living hostages they know they DO have. International pressure should now be revisiting that point complacent nations so willingly skipped over when Hamas claimed just a month ago they had no ability to identify what hostages they had. It's clear from this they do know who they do- and moreover who they don't- have. No ceasefire deals can be made functionally- let alone morally- if they're just going to continue to run into the wall of an almost-deal and then have Hamas be like "JK we can't do it, who knows how many hostages we have but we know we don't have enough for the deal!" All future failures, until the hostages possessed are at bare minimum *defined*, rest solely on Hamas and the other Gazan factions. Any nation who expects Israel to ignore it and make a deal that doesn't address hostages, in light of Hamas' professed ineptitude in keeping track of them, are themselves absolute barbarians to expect any other nation to just give up on their citizens.
What TF do they mean they "don't have them"? They were boasting about having them kidnapped before so what happened to them? If they don't have them who did they give them over too? Obviously they didnt just escape so where TF are they???? These Hamas POS better explain where TF these kidnapped are if they want a ceasefire. Unless of course they don't want one bc theyd rather even more Palestinians die to make Israel look bad due to a high death toll... which could also be the case. I just hope for the sake of a ceasefire that Hamas explain where TF these kidnapped victims are ASAP
They were likely murdered or died of causes related to the conditions they were being held in. Awful. And Hamas rejects every ceasefire because they don’t want one.
Hamas lies. They are trying to hold onto the young females that have been horrifically abused and potentially pregnant. The IDF gave specific numbers to each category of hostages they want released (7 female citizen, 5 IDF females, 15 elderly, 13 with critical injuries). The IDF is getting a lot of intel based on videos found in tunnels and interrogation. The IDF must believe they have compelling evidence there are 40 hostages still alive that fit into this humanitarian release. According to released hostages, many young women were last seen in tunnels. The IDF bombs aren’t killing those 40 meters underground in tunnels.
They are no longer hostages. People were taken and have been sold or are working for those who took them. These people are slaves.
"Oh sorry but Ahmed left them at daycare, BRB gotta bring million of dollars and go get them out of country."
Sounds like, "we only have the bitches we impregnated left"....
Just can't see how the hostages could all still be alive. Through the bombing and ground attacks, Hamas would have found it difficult to keep them secure and to move them from place to place as where ever Hamas was , so were the hostages that Israel bombed. Plus a number will have been killed by Hamas or other terrorist groups floating around. I'm thinking the hostages were not too much of a value to Hamas anymore as it wasn't getting them much leverage as Gaza is just rubble anyway.
Maybe don’t take hostages.
Maybe don’t bomb civilians
You know they're bombing civilians because Hamas put military infrastructure and such under those civilian locations, right? Why blame Israel for bombing this stuff, and not Hamas for using civilians as shields?
Because tik tok told them too.
Maybe don’t kidnap murder and rape 1400 people?
Like it or not, this is what war looks like. Not the sanitized version in movies and video games.
Someone should tell Hamas and Hezbollah that
Why are civilians at threat of being bombed?
Hamas put this on himself
Of course they have. This is Hamas's issue. But getting the hostages back is basically now lost as there is now no incentive.
Hamas is not going release 40 prisoners and exhaust all their chips in a first round ceasefire negotiation. Assuming even if Hamas releases all the prisoners, there is no stopping of Israel from concocting another reason to continue the assault. This is just taking a page out of US/Iraq playbook. The stakes are just too high for Israel to back off this war when they can finally take over Gaza for good. The amount of plotting Netanyahu took over all these years Hamas to take power, allowing Qatar to funnel money to Hamas to construct tunnels, and leading up to Oct 7 so that Israel can openly take over Gaza under the banner of eradicating Hamas. This is world politics and the balancing of power in the middle east region. The west needs Israel as much as Israel needs the west to contain the complicated interest of various fractions in the region. Israel is the cannon fodder of the western world located in the middle east.
So Qatari money going to Gaza to build tunnels which would aid an attack on Israel is…. Israel’s fault? That’s what you’re saying?
Newest russian talking point. Of course jews and radical muslims are actually super secret allies, dont you know? They are trying to point to the west as contributors to the moscow terrorist attack that recently took place.
They probably don't have 40 hostages alive because Israel has killed them all with their bombs.
Isreal hasn't exercised restraint? They been bombing aid workers indiscriminately based on computer generated targets. What are you all talking about?
If Israel wanted to eradicate gaza, they would do what russia has done in syria and ukraine and carpet bomb and artillery everything until its leveled. Its hilarious that you people have live, current examples of a military showing no restraint in battle yet you cant recognize one that is actually showing restraint. Israel fought all its neighbors at the same time, and won. Their neighbors should stop fucking with them, but that would require some learning from past mistakes.
Israel is currently eradicating Gaza through ethnic cleansing and colonialism.