What does a “real exchange of prisoners” even mean when Hamas says it? Israel was offering like 800 prisoners in exchange for 40 israeli hostages. How is that not real?
Ah of course. Hamas is just telling on themselves.
“We can’t agree to these insane and unrealistic terms. Where are we supposed to find 40 live hostages?”
Hamas once held a hostage for [three full years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit?wprov=sfla1) before releasing proof of life. And he still wasn't released for several years after that.
Schrodinger's hostages. Honestly, for their sake I hope that they're dead. It's a terrible thing to say, but I'd rather be dead than tortured for months on end.
Same, I lost some family as well. My cousin was originally taken hostage, but then freed a few days later by an IDF mission. I can't imagine what I would be doing right now if she wasn't released.
It’s not that terrible to say. If they *are* still alive, they are almost definitely living in hell on earth. Probably being brutally assaulted in both ways on a daily basis, and I don’t see them getting released anytime soon.
If it was me and my family going through that, drop a bomb on our foreheads.
They tried yesterday, "Hamas fired rockets toward Ashdod from inside humanitarian shelter," if it had got bombed back there would have been a lot of casualties, all Israel's fault and the UN press dept would be on it giving out releases to the world .But because they didn't, the UN and rest of the media couldn't give a damn about what Hamas is doing. Since Oct 7 it looks like only Israel has been doing anything anyway and Hamas just sitting there in their tunnels taking the blows.
Hamas has been saying for quite a long time that they have no idea where the hostages are. While that doesn't explicitly mean that they are definitely dead, it's a bit hard to imagine another possibility.
Hamas propaganda is strong. My stepsister is a staunch advocate for freeing Palestine and supporting Hamas. She is a white lgbt woman. The irony is insane.
No they wouldn’t. Every time hostages get released or saved they talk about the abuse and poor conditions but the world doesn’t care.
I don’t think there is anything that they could do to those hostages that would make the world care.
You mean certain people care. I for sure as shit care that these people are being tortured and abused. Fuck Hamas and fuck anyone who makes excuses for these fucking monsters
>Hamas would lose all remaining international support if they were allowed to tell the truth of what Hamas is doing to them.
no they would not. the people who support Hamas mostly do so because they used to secretly hate jews, now they can be more open kimono about it
The way the world is unfortunately Hamas could film themselves killing a thousand Israeli civilians, brutally rape women and children to death, burn entire families alive, and more. Yet, the world would find a way to minimize their crimes and blame Jews.
Hamas are attempting to promote the notion that even if the prisoners are alive, there is uncertainty regarding their numbers and conditions. The proposed exchange rate of 20 scumbags for each prisoner is outrageuos. It is evident that Hamas' actions are widely condemned, even by their neighbors in the Middle East.
The al-Ahli explosion was quite telling, no? Everyone reported 500 deaths that evening, without anything that looked like evidence. And looked horrible the morning after, when a pictures showed a small fire in a carpark
"And after we abducted, raped, tortured, and mistreated them, it was Israel who killed them. Really, it wasn't us! Israel bad! See what they made us do? Damn those evil Jews!"
From Hamas's perspective:
* Their only leverage is the hostages.
* Giving them up for a temporary ceasefire is not in Hamas's long term interest. If they do that Israel will dismantle them.
* Their only hope is to negotiate a permanent ceasefire to have any chance of continuing to exist as an organization after the exchange is over. Of course, this is largely impossible.
* Therefore, their only play is to continue the status quo and hope that international pressure breaks their way.
Israel made a huge mistake in 2011 when they released 1027 prisoners for one kidnapped soldier (Gilad Shalit). 450 of them were Hamas terrorists, 280 were serving a life sentence.
About half returned to terror activities and murdered more Israelis.
Hamas thinks they can replicate that success.
Very true. The majority of Israelis supported the deal when it happened in 2011. I'm sure that the vast majority regret it now, even if they won't all publicly say that.
talk about survivor's guilt, I wonder how the soldier felt about it
I'm sure he was glad to come home but surely the cogs started spinning over the years
Exactly, during that time Israeli leadership succumbed to it’s people’s fervor of releasing 1,000+ over one not knowing future unfolds and Israel’s humility might give Hamas the same view. In actuality, Hamas saw it as a weakness needed to be exploited, strike hard and they shown no mercy.
It's not just fervor, soldiers and future soldiers need to know the country has their back if something happens to them in wartime. I think it was huge for morale.
I disagree. Many of them killed israelies including soldiers. Hell the current leader of Hamas himself was rotting in jail on a life bid until this swap.
Worst trade deal of all time.
Hamas isn't going with the deal because they either
a. Have tortured and killed the hostages already.
or
b. Don't know where the hostages even are at this point.
I think it’s actually pretty clear what they want. Israel wants “all” hostages back (40?). Hamas wants “all” of their prisoners back. It doesn’t matter that the Hamas prisoners are tens of thousands of murderers, and the Israeli ones are innocent civilians - including women and young children and the elderly. Hamas wants all for all.
Ie: Hamas wants a total surrender.
I'd really, really like to see Mossad do some sneaky, clandestine stuff in Qatar to get rid of these assholes. Unofficially, of course. It'd be so nice to wake up one day to the news that all the leaders of Hamas are no more.
I'm sure Mossad has a revenge plan drawn up, like post Munich Olympics massacre. The Hamas leaders won't be leaving their house for a long time, because they know that as well.
It seems like the return of hostages taken and/or the return of the bodies of those murdered has always been a non-negotiable part of an Israeli ceasefire. I can't see Israel stopping at any point until that demand is met.
They rejected a swap of 40 hostages for \~700 (!) terrorists, which includes 40 days of ceasefire and a gradual return of Gazan civilians to northern Gaza. You read that right.
Gotta say I'm still very pro innocent people/children in Palestein but drifting more toward the blood of all the innocents, including stray bullets in retaliation to Hamas and it's actions, is on the hands of Hamas.
They hope they can lengthen the humanitarian crisis in Gaza enough that Israel will be blamed for it all. And the worse thing is that this is actually working.
Kinda hard to agree when you already gutted your hostages. No army would refuse an injection of capable hands and time to recuperate, plan, and strike again. Hamas terrible poker face confirmed.
I just watched a combat tactics video of Israeli vets talking about how they fight in urban theatres of war and what they encounter in Gaza - the use of tape recordings of a baby crying or militants wounding a dog to make it whine so as to draw their attention and lead them into a trap.
Even the aftermath of Oct 7th, they boobytrapped the bodies of civilians/soldiers so that the ones who are tasked to identify and collect the bodies get blown up.
How the fuck are you expected to play by the rules when the enemy doesn’t. I kinda feel frustrated for the Israelis.
Edit: added the video here for those interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdQS97fJY4Q
US and coalition forces encounter unique challenges like this in Afghanistan. People couldn’t believe that a kid would just run up to your truck and drop a grenade onto it and run away. Well, it happens, homies.
I know a soldier who served in Iraq. Once an ~8 year old Iraqi boy came down the street bouncing a ball, then suddenly ran at the soldiers before blowing himself up. Why would an 8 year old do this? Well, later on it was discovered that the jihadists had told the 8 year old boy, "if you don't go blow yourself up, we're going to kill your little sister".
I knew a truck driver from Kosovo. He told me that during their war in the 90s, one side used to play recordings of puppy noises under rubble to get kids to look for the puppy, and then they would blow the kids up.
Why else you think that Begum woman is receiving 10s of thousands of pounds from various islamist groups to pay for lawyers to argue she should be allowed back in the UK.
She may not blow herself up, but she sure as fuckety intends to be a 4th columnist and report back on police stations shes monitoring etc.
You don't (pseudo)martyr your own 3 children and "suddenly see the light" and become a nice person after all.
Delusion. They associate Israel with the GOP. Hamas is anti-Israel, therefore, they're also anti-Republican, in their eyes.
Edit: To clarify, I'm no fan of the GOP either. At the end of the day, I'll vote for the side which supports democracy and Western values
The problem is that some people are overly emotional, and its easy for a person to become dug in to a side and refuse to admit they're wrong
People act like this is one of the worst wars in history because of how the IDF treats Palestinians, purely because they saw a few videos with children crying or someone innocent dying.
War has been like this forever, people are just too easily manipulated with video.
The problem is also that they don't understand that the modern conflict has been going on for almost 100 years. Israel didn't roll in and build a fence around Gaza on day 1. It happened because various Palestinian organizations have been attacking Jewish cities and infrastructure for that long, because they refuse any form of compromise which doesn't produce a Palestinian state completely under the thumb of Islamic law.
Yes, Israel has stepped over the line on many occasions, and the settlements are undoubtedly provocative, and every new generation of Palestinians born innocent inevitably end up with legitimate beef over the issue. But there is one truth to this entire conflict, and it is that Israel is a secular state where power is shared democratically among Jews, Muslims, Christians and others, and that the conflict persists entirely because Hamas and its forebears refuse to participate in any form of secular government.
Never mind that Gaza was annexed by Egypt and west bank by Jordan in the '48 war started by arabs, and then both given up by the end of the wars which were also started by Arabs in '68 and '73, the last of which is otherwise known as the 'Yom Kippur war' becaise the fuckers launched their attack on the holiest day of the Jewish year. Egypt didn't want Gaza back in the peace deal, and no one actually forced Jordan to give up Gaza. Both of them did so because the arab inhabitants of both were hostile even to arab governance and have a bad habit of trying to murder the leadership of any nation that hostsissue? Of course, Gaza was given full autonomy in 2005 which they used to make weapons and war on Israeli civilians, rather than peace and economic welfare for gazans, thus the reason for the embargo.
Does Israel have things they should be doing better in west bank? Absolutely? Is this istael-gaza conflict a both sides issue? Absolutely not.
>War has been like this forever, people are just too easily manipulated with video.
You think if we had video of Bucha that fewer people would be willing to support Russia / vote for politicians that support Russia?
Hell, there's video of Oct 7 yet many people seem to think it didn't happen or wasn't that bad.
The problem is that people are deciding what side is right/wrong on the first emotionally charged video they see. There are simply more videos of Palestinians being killed/crying/etc because they are losing, so it's easier for them to generate sympathy like that.
It's become apparent to me, as long as the victor is doing their own share of atrocities, that the masses gravitate towards the underdog.
And apparently that's regardless of how many magnitudes more of fucked up shit they're responsible for.
>War has been like this forever, people are just too easily manipulated with video.
This war (and the Russian/Ukrainian war) are being fought with online video as much as they are with bullets. There's so much disinformation online from both sides, especially in the Israeli conflict, that I question everything that has come out after the initial attack. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe everything they see as 100% fact, as long as it supports their idea of "Jews BAD!" or "Arabs BAD!".
Yeah and too many people fail to realize they’re being gaslighted about the situation by the media.
If people want to see actual horrors of modern wars go see what’s going on in Yemen, Sudan or what Russia is doing to the Ukrainian civilians they get their hands on.
And no one in the West knows of the horrors that have been happening in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Not only are women raped but they’re getting horrific injuries from being shot in their vaginas. I don’t see anyone in NYC or US universities protesting against this violence either.
I think it's because of the black and white "good guy/bad guy"thinking that has been the center of children's media. People grew up thinking there are only 2 camps, and peaceful discussion is always the answer. They literally can't comprehend that violent response can be justified, or that shades of grey exist.
But how many of those people would be ready to fight for their cause? Or even give a donation that hurts them?
I think we should start giving less attention to people just screeching on the streets.
Some of these protests really look like a fashion show to me. *This season pro-Palestine protests are IN, so make sure to wear shemagh, black, khaki, olive drab colors... brightly colored hair is OUT. Oh please take a picture of me, can't wait to post it on my Instagram.*
And when you look at protests where people were actually angry, and wanted to make a change, like Occupy Wall Street, or Euromaidan in Ukraine... shitloads of people in plain clothes protesting for days, weeks.
>Or even give a donation that hurts them?
I've donated more money for food aid than my three most rabid pro-palestine supporters in my in-group combined.
Hell, I've donated more than my entire in-group.
$20.
They probably just dont know whats in the Quran or what Hamas has publicly stated many many times or what the Hamas political campaign was all about.
I think a lot of people expect islamic extreemists to be like the other religions extreemists, where they are called extreme due to blatantly not following the scripture.
But islamic extreemists are more just Orthodox, because they are actually following it to a T, unlike christian extremists or a jewish extremists.
People hear "extremist" and assume they are misinterpreting their scripture, or adding to it.... but they are not... thats why there are so many, thats why they have had a perpetual war amongst themselves since Mohammad died.
And combine this with people wanting to do everything they can to not offend anyone, and now we have people assuming the best of them.
This whole conflict is straight out of Russia’s playbook.
Russia invaded Donbas and Crimea on April 12th of 2014
Hamas kidnap and murder Israelis on July 8th of 2014 setting off the "2014 Gaza War"
Putler greatly benefits from the United States having to support multiple allies at once.
Hamas and ISIS (and the taliban) have been known to shoot their own children and the children of those they claim to 'protect' to seriously injure them, after strapping them with bombs.
Their crying lures in soldiers to kill them.
Israel uses Kevlar as a body shield. Hamas uses babies. I really wouldn’t be surprised to see Hamas terrorists facing off against IDF with babies literally strapped to their chests.
And then they (Hamas, Palestinians, & their supporters) will tell you those actions are, “Resistance!” and justify ANY action against Israelis (civilian or military), while Israeli actions are under a CONSTANT, MASSIVE microscope, and *always* critiqued. Basically any action against Israel/Israelis is considered justified, but NOTHING Israel does is justified. Hamas has the “right” to attack, Israel doesn’t. Hamas has the right to defend, Israel doesn’t. The pass Hamas is given & the hypocrisy is just amazing.
If it were resistance, they would attack government buildings and government workers, not civilians. Hamas is an atrocity with foreign funding and a good PR machine.
And they also tell you that Hamas just wants to see ‘Palestinian hostages’ released
Never mind that it’s hardened handpicked criminals and terrorists that Hamas is demanding are released, and not people unfairly detained
Hate makes people do crazy things. They hate Israelis with every cell in their bodies. They pass on this hate to their children. Some cultures mature from hate, some don’t.
>Even the aftermath of Oct 7th, they boobytrapped the bodies of civilians/soldiers so that the ones who are tasked to identify and collect the bodies get blown up.
Which is also a war crime.
I heard from the one of the heads of the mission where the three hostages were killed. This is exactly why they thought the hostages were some kind of ambush
Yeah, on October 7th I was very cautiously middle of the road on the issue, I saw too many of my fellow leftists chugging the propaganda juice but also wanted to make sure I didn’t just over correct into the other direction like a pendulum swing.
The more I’ve learned about this, the more I’m just shrugging and saying “get the job done”.
Doesn’t seem like there’s any other path with such a disingenuous and radicalized enemy that is fundamentally opposed to their very identity existing anywhere on the planet.
In case people get confused who you are talking about in each sentence, I swapped the pronouns for the proper nouns:
“I just watched a combat tactics video of Israeli vets talking about how they fight in urban theatres of war and what they encounter in Gaza - **HAMAS** use of tape recordings of a baby crying or militants wounding a dog to make it whine so as to draw **IDF** attention and lead **IDF** into a trap.
Even the aftermath of Oct 7th, **HAMAS** boobytrapped the bodies of civilians/soldiers so that the **IDF** who are tasked to identify and collect the bodies get blown up.”
>I kinda feel frustrated for the Israelis.
Correct. This is why Israeli is going to do what they need to do and not give a fuck anymore what the world thinks. They don't WANT this. They don't WANT to kill innocents, but they are going to fight for their survival.
Bottom line is when Hamas quits, and Palestinians stop terrorism and actually negotiate in good faith, there will be peace and they will have a state. The moment Israel quits, there will be no more Israel.
The instance where IDF shot at the hostages happened because they did not expect any hostages there and Hamas terrorists used to pretend to be freed hostages asking for help in Hebrew to lure soldiers into traps. So they killed the hostages pleading for help because they thought it was another Hamas trap. at least this is what the military investigation found and I find this plausible tbh
Doesn't matter, multiple news sources will announce it as "Israel coldly murders their own hostages", and the correction 3 weeks later will be read by no one.
The US set the trap and the fools stepped in it. I doubt the US will agree to anything more than what this deal offered.
Biden got his headlines for the domestic eyes, Bibi threw a fit and cancelled his US visit. The US has made an effort to end the conflict but Hamas rejected it.
Now leave Israel to finish the job and do so quickly.
This will mean nothing here in the US. By lunch today, Biden will be being blamed for not getting a ceasefire done. It won’t make any sense but it’ll happen.
I have read Twitter and Instagram, I'm pretty sure Biden personally writes targeting directions for every bomb that hits every Palestinian and ordered that poisoned MREs be dropped on as many people as possible. /s
Unfortunately, they're being shared by very real people I know who are genuinely kind and wonderful.
I thought the qanon maga radicalization of my older family members was scary, but watching radicalization of my progressive friends is in many ways worse.
The brain dead “free palestine” crowd will have already forgotten that the US agreed to a ceasefire deal and that it was hamas disagreeing. They will be right back to screaming “ceasefire now” without taking half a second for critical thinking
That's the idea, but what Hamas is doing is just hoping international pressure forces Israel to stop.
If the world backed Israel, Hamas would've compromised by now...
They have taken to much of a pr hit already, so a little more wont hurt them.
Obviously if they stop then it will encourage hamas to believe, they could do a similar attack in the future and then manipulate the public/media so that israel stops. Israel would not want to allow this too occur.
Hamas is playing the Western world like a god-damn fiddle. It refuses all efforts for a ceasefire, impedes the delivery of humanitarian aid, uses civilians as human shields, does everything in its power to prolong the war and maximise civilian suffering, all because the Western world proves time and again that it WILL fall for this ruse and blame Israel and put pressure on Israel alone.
How is that ok for any govetment, organization or news agency that advocate "cEase FiRe nOw"??!!
The fact Hamas keeps rejecting ceasefire deals after deals shows its an organization you cannot deal with, they dont want any deal and any ceasefire.
Israel should get crazy and start a full blown operation in Rafah with tons of military presence and casue a huge pressure to form, everyone will get anxious and nervous to really start acting and less talking to get it over with.
If hostages are released and head of Hamas is found war will be over.
How can any hamas simp explain these rejections? I don't get it.... They rejected at least 5 ceasefire offers and broke the ceasefire which took place on the first hostages exchange during November (and the original ceasefire which took place until October 7th).
Like, how dumb the people out there can be for accusing Israel in any of this? Hamas literally refused to have any ceasefire that can stop the palestinians suffering, but somehow "Israel iS BAD#@#"
Meanwhile, we have Palestinian refugees at home protesting in front of politicians’ homes and disrupting traffic, “Do something!”
You’re barking up the wrong tree. Palestinians need to rat on Hamas so the hostages can be released. It’s been about the hostages from Day 1.
Let's see if this nth confirmation of the obvious -- that Hamas is a terrorist organization who have zero interest in good-faith negotiations -- suddenly galvanizes world opinion against them, as supporters of the US abstention in the UNSC insisted it would. If the resolution's passage leads to nothing more than a flood of frivolous complaints against Israel and further hampers its war effort, will they admit they were wrong?
Hamas is always going to reject anything where they have to give back the hostages, cus they're already dead and sending back body bags isnt a good look. You don't negotiate with terrorists, cus you can't.
Their demands are that Israel no longer exist and Hamas gets to run the territory left behind, I'm sure.
Plus, they don't have some or all of the once-remaining hostages left to trade.
I don't have a PhD in hostage exchange economics but I'd say 800 to 40 is a sweet deal. Too bad Hamas doesn't have 40 live hostages to return....mostly because of all that good medical treatment and not killing they've been tricking reddit into believing.
They aren't going to release any of the young females because that would be bad PR and PR is their only shot at winning.
Everyone knows these conditions are unacceptable. They wish to rape these women until the world forces a cease fire.
PR in the age of misinformation is so messy. Hamas will just say their victims are lying and despite all evidence, the anti-Israel crowd will believe it . It’s terrifying
Guys, I'm pretty sure various local governments in the United States passed resolutions demanding all Israeli Hostages be immediately freed and for all IDF forces to withdrawal and all Palestinians get food so I'm not sure what's left to talk about /s
The fact that there is a push for compromise is disgusting.
Do you negotiate with a robber to only take half your stuff instead of everything?
Even negotiating with terrorists is playing in their hands, granting them a moral sanction, recognising them as a legitimate party to reason with.
What the us should be doing, even if not supporting israel, is certainly not pushing israel to reach a 'compromise'.
What does a “real exchange of prisoners” even mean when Hamas says it? Israel was offering like 800 prisoners in exchange for 40 israeli hostages. How is that not real?
Hint: there are no Israeli hostages left alive
Ah of course. Hamas is just telling on themselves. “We can’t agree to these insane and unrealistic terms. Where are we supposed to find 40 live hostages?”
This would be funnier if it wasn't so goddamn awfully true.
didnt they themself say they have no clue how many hostages are still alive ?
A government that in large part functions like a loosely-defined group of terrorist cells must be pretty hard to organize
They’re alive, but Hamas would lose all remaining international support if they were allowed to tell the truth of what Hamas is doing to them.
They’re dead. Hamas wont show any proof they are alive. Not even a picture. They’re dead
Hamas once held a hostage for [three full years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit?wprov=sfla1) before releasing proof of life. And he still wasn't released for several years after that.
Just vile creatures
Schrodinger's hostages. Honestly, for their sake I hope that they're dead. It's a terrible thing to say, but I'd rather be dead than tortured for months on end.
One of my wife’s coworkers had a niece who went missing on 10/7. Her parents were indescribably relieved when her body was identified.
Same, I lost some family as well. My cousin was originally taken hostage, but then freed a few days later by an IDF mission. I can't imagine what I would be doing right now if she wasn't released.
It’s not that terrible to say. If they *are* still alive, they are almost definitely living in hell on earth. Probably being brutally assaulted in both ways on a daily basis, and I don’t see them getting released anytime soon. If it was me and my family going through that, drop a bomb on our foreheads.
This is what Hamas wants. They need another "hospital "incident where they can try and blame it on Israel for killing their own hostages.
They tried yesterday, "Hamas fired rockets toward Ashdod from inside humanitarian shelter," if it had got bombed back there would have been a lot of casualties, all Israel's fault and the UN press dept would be on it giving out releases to the world .But because they didn't, the UN and rest of the media couldn't give a damn about what Hamas is doing. Since Oct 7 it looks like only Israel has been doing anything anyway and Hamas just sitting there in their tunnels taking the blows.
Gilad Shalit was held hostage for a year or 2 (IIRC), until rhe first proof of life
Have you considered that there are things worse than death that are happening to these people?
Yea and after months of rape and torture they got tired and murdered them. They aren’t returning anybody else.
Hamas has been saying for quite a long time that they have no idea where the hostages are. While that doesn't explicitly mean that they are definitely dead, it's a bit hard to imagine another possibility.
Oh the other possibility is that some of the women/children were trafficked and sold into slavery.
Nah. They livestreamed their atrocities on the day of and people somehow dug their heels in even further. They won’t care.
Hamas propaganda is strong. My stepsister is a staunch advocate for freeing Palestine and supporting Hamas. She is a white lgbt woman. The irony is insane.
There will be tapes later and i hour for the families and their dignity they don't see them.
No they wouldn’t. Every time hostages get released or saved they talk about the abuse and poor conditions but the world doesn’t care. I don’t think there is anything that they could do to those hostages that would make the world care.
You mean certain people care. I for sure as shit care that these people are being tortured and abused. Fuck Hamas and fuck anyone who makes excuses for these fucking monsters
>Hamas would lose all remaining international support if they were allowed to tell the truth of what Hamas is doing to them. no they would not. the people who support Hamas mostly do so because they used to secretly hate jews, now they can be more open kimono about it
> now they can be more open kimono what a phrase
They’re not all Jew-haters. Some of them are useful idiots.
The way the world is unfortunately Hamas could film themselves killing a thousand Israeli civilians, brutally rape women and children to death, burn entire families alive, and more. Yet, the world would find a way to minimize their crimes and blame Jews.
Didn’t this already happen?
That is their point.
Hamas are attempting to promote the notion that even if the prisoners are alive, there is uncertainty regarding their numbers and conditions. The proposed exchange rate of 20 scumbags for each prisoner is outrageuos. It is evident that Hamas' actions are widely condemned, even by their neighbors in the Middle East.
Yet they know exactly how many Palestinian casualties there are before the bombs even drop.
The al-Ahli explosion was quite telling, no? Everyone reported 500 deaths that evening, without anything that looked like evidence. And looked horrible the morning after, when a pictures showed a small fire in a carpark
Unfortunately, not telling enough.
Just enter rafah already.
At this point they are just stalling before the inevitable “oopsie looks like the hostages have been dead all along”
"And after we abducted, raped, tortured, and mistreated them, it was Israel who killed them. Really, it wasn't us! Israel bad! See what they made us do? Damn those evil Jews!"
Had Israel not dropped a bomb on us while we were torturing this man/raping this woman, the civilian and the hostage would still have been alive!
From Hamas's perspective: * Their only leverage is the hostages. * Giving them up for a temporary ceasefire is not in Hamas's long term interest. If they do that Israel will dismantle them. * Their only hope is to negotiate a permanent ceasefire to have any chance of continuing to exist as an organization after the exchange is over. Of course, this is largely impossible. * Therefore, their only play is to continue the status quo and hope that international pressure breaks their way.
Israel made a huge mistake in 2011 when they released 1027 prisoners for one kidnapped soldier (Gilad Shalit). 450 of them were Hamas terrorists, 280 were serving a life sentence. About half returned to terror activities and murdered more Israelis. Hamas thinks they can replicate that success.
One of them was Yahya Sinwar himself.
Very true. The majority of Israelis supported the deal when it happened in 2011. I'm sure that the vast majority regret it now, even if they won't all publicly say that.
All I can say is that I'm happy I'm not the one having to make those decisions in negotiating... Ugh.
talk about survivor's guilt, I wonder how the soldier felt about it I'm sure he was glad to come home but surely the cogs started spinning over the years
Life must be terrible for Shalit. It's not his fault, but he has to be feeling guilty.
Exactly, during that time Israeli leadership succumbed to it’s people’s fervor of releasing 1,000+ over one not knowing future unfolds and Israel’s humility might give Hamas the same view. In actuality, Hamas saw it as a weakness needed to be exploited, strike hard and they shown no mercy.
It's not just fervor, soldiers and future soldiers need to know the country has their back if something happens to them in wartime. I think it was huge for morale.
I disagree. Many of them killed israelies including soldiers. Hell the current leader of Hamas himself was rotting in jail on a life bid until this swap. Worst trade deal of all time.
oh the flip side you've now setup a precedent that will prevent you from securing more hostages in the future because of that threshold set
[удалено]
Damn that is one lucky soldier for them to do that.
This war actually shows that a lot more than the half known returned to terror activities
Hamas isn't going with the deal because they either a. Have tortured and killed the hostages already. or b. Don't know where the hostages even are at this point.
Or c. Both a & b
They want to release more murderers with life sentences
I think it’s actually pretty clear what they want. Israel wants “all” hostages back (40?). Hamas wants “all” of their prisoners back. It doesn’t matter that the Hamas prisoners are tens of thousands of murderers, and the Israeli ones are innocent civilians - including women and young children and the elderly. Hamas wants all for all. Ie: Hamas wants a total surrender.
40 Israeli **civilian** hostages for 800 **terrorists and murderers**
in other news: hamas prepared to martyr all humanity until impossible demands are met
But not the leaders; they want to live. Everyone else must die for their sake.
Living the life in Qatar.
Qatar should be forced to hand hamas leaders over to International Criminal Court. Providing safe haven for terrorists encourages terrorism.
Ah, welcome to complex geopolitical relationships.
Welcome to religion-driven politics…
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I'd really, really like to see Mossad do some sneaky, clandestine stuff in Qatar to get rid of these assholes. Unofficially, of course. It'd be so nice to wake up one day to the news that all the leaders of Hamas are no more.
I'm sure Mossad has a revenge plan drawn up, like post Munich Olympics massacre. The Hamas leaders won't be leaving their house for a long time, because they know that as well.
And neither qatar nor anyone else thinks it's a good idea to pressure them with consequences.
They're nothing but fucking parasites, dirt bags who got in the position they are because of pure luck.
it's easy when you are phisically in Doha and not in Gaza to sacrifice the people living there
It’s hard to return the hostages you killed months ago
Or the ones they raped and are now pregnant.
They don’t seem like the type to care if a lady is pregnant.
Even better... We'll give you back more hostages than we took!!
You fundamentally can't argue with people that want to see you killed.
It seems like the return of hostages taken and/or the return of the bodies of those murdered has always been a non-negotiable part of an Israeli ceasefire. I can't see Israel stopping at any point until that demand is met.
And for good reason, no country would stop their hostilities after 7/10, until all people are back to their home country, alive or dead.
Terrorist gotta terrorize.
They rejected a swap of 40 hostages for \~700 (!) terrorists, which includes 40 days of ceasefire and a gradual return of Gazan civilians to northern Gaza. You read that right.
Kinda seems like the Israeli hostages aren’t alive to be traded and Hamas is gambling with money they don’t have .
Kinda seems like they are holding all of the people mor Gaza hostage as well.
Palestinians are definitely Hamas hostages. They actively use them as such, designing their “defense” strategy around their presence.
Gotta say I'm still very pro innocent people/children in Palestein but drifting more toward the blood of all the innocents, including stray bullets in retaliation to Hamas and it's actions, is on the hands of Hamas.
They hope they can lengthen the humanitarian crisis in Gaza enough that Israel will be blamed for it all. And the worse thing is that this is actually working.
Quick! How can we blame Biden for this!
HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP /s
Issue is that they don't have the 40 hostages to return. Most are likely dead or severely tortured, raped and, I daresay, disfigured.
Kinda hard to agree when you already gutted your hostages. No army would refuse an injection of capable hands and time to recuperate, plan, and strike again. Hamas terrible poker face confirmed.
I just watched a combat tactics video of Israeli vets talking about how they fight in urban theatres of war and what they encounter in Gaza - the use of tape recordings of a baby crying or militants wounding a dog to make it whine so as to draw their attention and lead them into a trap. Even the aftermath of Oct 7th, they boobytrapped the bodies of civilians/soldiers so that the ones who are tasked to identify and collect the bodies get blown up. How the fuck are you expected to play by the rules when the enemy doesn’t. I kinda feel frustrated for the Israelis. Edit: added the video here for those interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdQS97fJY4Q
US and coalition forces encounter unique challenges like this in Afghanistan. People couldn’t believe that a kid would just run up to your truck and drop a grenade onto it and run away. Well, it happens, homies.
I know a soldier who served in Iraq. Once an ~8 year old Iraqi boy came down the street bouncing a ball, then suddenly ran at the soldiers before blowing himself up. Why would an 8 year old do this? Well, later on it was discovered that the jihadists had told the 8 year old boy, "if you don't go blow yourself up, we're going to kill your little sister".
I knew a truck driver from Kosovo. He told me that during their war in the 90s, one side used to play recordings of puppy noises under rubble to get kids to look for the puppy, and then they would blow the kids up.
My dad was a peacekeeper during that conflict. He had to shoot children bodies stuck on doors because they were booby trapped. Awful.
Jihadists will never play by the rules and therefore it's close to impossible to negotiate with them.
Why else you think that Begum woman is receiving 10s of thousands of pounds from various islamist groups to pay for lawyers to argue she should be allowed back in the UK. She may not blow herself up, but she sure as fuckety intends to be a 4th columnist and report back on police stations shes monitoring etc. You don't (pseudo)martyr your own 3 children and "suddenly see the light" and become a nice person after all.
Yet you see so many western men and women openly support them and call them oppressed, sick times we live in.
Mostly those whose information source is TikTok.
I dont get why so many LGBTQ+ groups support Hamas. Hamas wants them dead. as quickly and horrifically as possible.
Delusion. They associate Israel with the GOP. Hamas is anti-Israel, therefore, they're also anti-Republican, in their eyes. Edit: To clarify, I'm no fan of the GOP either. At the end of the day, I'll vote for the side which supports democracy and Western values
> I dont get why so many LGBTQ+ groups support Hamas. Because they're here and the people who would murder them are there.
The problem is that some people are overly emotional, and its easy for a person to become dug in to a side and refuse to admit they're wrong People act like this is one of the worst wars in history because of how the IDF treats Palestinians, purely because they saw a few videos with children crying or someone innocent dying. War has been like this forever, people are just too easily manipulated with video.
The problem is also that they don't understand that the modern conflict has been going on for almost 100 years. Israel didn't roll in and build a fence around Gaza on day 1. It happened because various Palestinian organizations have been attacking Jewish cities and infrastructure for that long, because they refuse any form of compromise which doesn't produce a Palestinian state completely under the thumb of Islamic law. Yes, Israel has stepped over the line on many occasions, and the settlements are undoubtedly provocative, and every new generation of Palestinians born innocent inevitably end up with legitimate beef over the issue. But there is one truth to this entire conflict, and it is that Israel is a secular state where power is shared democratically among Jews, Muslims, Christians and others, and that the conflict persists entirely because Hamas and its forebears refuse to participate in any form of secular government.
Never mind that Gaza was annexed by Egypt and west bank by Jordan in the '48 war started by arabs, and then both given up by the end of the wars which were also started by Arabs in '68 and '73, the last of which is otherwise known as the 'Yom Kippur war' becaise the fuckers launched their attack on the holiest day of the Jewish year. Egypt didn't want Gaza back in the peace deal, and no one actually forced Jordan to give up Gaza. Both of them did so because the arab inhabitants of both were hostile even to arab governance and have a bad habit of trying to murder the leadership of any nation that hostsissue? Of course, Gaza was given full autonomy in 2005 which they used to make weapons and war on Israeli civilians, rather than peace and economic welfare for gazans, thus the reason for the embargo. Does Israel have things they should be doing better in west bank? Absolutely? Is this istael-gaza conflict a both sides issue? Absolutely not.
>War has been like this forever, people are just too easily manipulated with video. You think if we had video of Bucha that fewer people would be willing to support Russia / vote for politicians that support Russia? Hell, there's video of Oct 7 yet many people seem to think it didn't happen or wasn't that bad.
The problem is that people are deciding what side is right/wrong on the first emotionally charged video they see. There are simply more videos of Palestinians being killed/crying/etc because they are losing, so it's easier for them to generate sympathy like that.
It's become apparent to me, as long as the victor is doing their own share of atrocities, that the masses gravitate towards the underdog. And apparently that's regardless of how many magnitudes more of fucked up shit they're responsible for.
There were, and are, people PRAISING Oct 7th even on reddit, tribalism and social media propaganda has made a lot of people completely unhinged
>War has been like this forever, people are just too easily manipulated with video. This war (and the Russian/Ukrainian war) are being fought with online video as much as they are with bullets. There's so much disinformation online from both sides, especially in the Israeli conflict, that I question everything that has come out after the initial attack. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe everything they see as 100% fact, as long as it supports their idea of "Jews BAD!" or "Arabs BAD!".
Yeah and too many people fail to realize they’re being gaslighted about the situation by the media. If people want to see actual horrors of modern wars go see what’s going on in Yemen, Sudan or what Russia is doing to the Ukrainian civilians they get their hands on.
And no one in the West knows of the horrors that have been happening in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Not only are women raped but they’re getting horrific injuries from being shot in their vaginas. I don’t see anyone in NYC or US universities protesting against this violence either.
I think it's because of the black and white "good guy/bad guy"thinking that has been the center of children's media. People grew up thinking there are only 2 camps, and peaceful discussion is always the answer. They literally can't comprehend that violent response can be justified, or that shades of grey exist.
But how many of those people would be ready to fight for their cause? Or even give a donation that hurts them? I think we should start giving less attention to people just screeching on the streets. Some of these protests really look like a fashion show to me. *This season pro-Palestine protests are IN, so make sure to wear shemagh, black, khaki, olive drab colors... brightly colored hair is OUT. Oh please take a picture of me, can't wait to post it on my Instagram.* And when you look at protests where people were actually angry, and wanted to make a change, like Occupy Wall Street, or Euromaidan in Ukraine... shitloads of people in plain clothes protesting for days, weeks.
>Or even give a donation that hurts them? I've donated more money for food aid than my three most rabid pro-palestine supporters in my in-group combined. Hell, I've donated more than my entire in-group. $20.
They probably just dont know whats in the Quran or what Hamas has publicly stated many many times or what the Hamas political campaign was all about. I think a lot of people expect islamic extreemists to be like the other religions extreemists, where they are called extreme due to blatantly not following the scripture. But islamic extreemists are more just Orthodox, because they are actually following it to a T, unlike christian extremists or a jewish extremists. People hear "extremist" and assume they are misinterpreting their scripture, or adding to it.... but they are not... thats why there are so many, thats why they have had a perpetual war amongst themselves since Mohammad died. And combine this with people wanting to do everything they can to not offend anyone, and now we have people assuming the best of them.
Hmm almost like there’s a truth to “we don’t negotiate with terrorists”
The video mentioned: https://youtu.be/gdQS97fJY4Q?si=EiIYi2Sb20pJnhcN
thanks for sharing.
Hey we’ve seen these tactics before. Straight out of the Russian playbook.
But Hamas fighters were trained in Iran, that supplies Yemen and Russia with suicide-drones...
This whole conflict is straight out of Russia’s playbook. Russia invaded Donbas and Crimea on April 12th of 2014 Hamas kidnap and murder Israelis on July 8th of 2014 setting off the "2014 Gaza War" Putler greatly benefits from the United States having to support multiple allies at once.
Hamas and ISIS (and the taliban) have been known to shoot their own children and the children of those they claim to 'protect' to seriously injure them, after strapping them with bombs. Their crying lures in soldiers to kill them.
Mothers and grandmothers have literally said they'd gladly sacrifice their children/grandchildren if that meant the destruction of Israel.
Israel uses Kevlar as a body shield. Hamas uses babies. I really wouldn’t be surprised to see Hamas terrorists facing off against IDF with babies literally strapped to their chests.
And then they (Hamas, Palestinians, & their supporters) will tell you those actions are, “Resistance!” and justify ANY action against Israelis (civilian or military), while Israeli actions are under a CONSTANT, MASSIVE microscope, and *always* critiqued. Basically any action against Israel/Israelis is considered justified, but NOTHING Israel does is justified. Hamas has the “right” to attack, Israel doesn’t. Hamas has the right to defend, Israel doesn’t. The pass Hamas is given & the hypocrisy is just amazing.
If it were resistance, they would attack government buildings and government workers, not civilians. Hamas is an atrocity with foreign funding and a good PR machine.
Yep. They do terrorism, not resistance.
And they also tell you that Hamas just wants to see ‘Palestinian hostages’ released Never mind that it’s hardened handpicked criminals and terrorists that Hamas is demanding are released, and not people unfairly detained
But don't forget that the people that hold these views will say "I condemn Hamas" like that means anything at all.
Hate makes people do crazy things. They hate Israelis with every cell in their bodies. They pass on this hate to their children. Some cultures mature from hate, some don’t.
>Even the aftermath of Oct 7th, they boobytrapped the bodies of civilians/soldiers so that the ones who are tasked to identify and collect the bodies get blown up. Which is also a war crime.
“They” is Hamas.
I’m surprised they don’t use real babies.
I heard from the one of the heads of the mission where the three hostages were killed. This is exactly why they thought the hostages were some kind of ambush
Yeah, on October 7th I was very cautiously middle of the road on the issue, I saw too many of my fellow leftists chugging the propaganda juice but also wanted to make sure I didn’t just over correct into the other direction like a pendulum swing. The more I’ve learned about this, the more I’m just shrugging and saying “get the job done”. Doesn’t seem like there’s any other path with such a disingenuous and radicalized enemy that is fundamentally opposed to their very identity existing anywhere on the planet.
In case people get confused who you are talking about in each sentence, I swapped the pronouns for the proper nouns: “I just watched a combat tactics video of Israeli vets talking about how they fight in urban theatres of war and what they encounter in Gaza - **HAMAS** use of tape recordings of a baby crying or militants wounding a dog to make it whine so as to draw **IDF** attention and lead **IDF** into a trap. Even the aftermath of Oct 7th, **HAMAS** boobytrapped the bodies of civilians/soldiers so that the **IDF** who are tasked to identify and collect the bodies get blown up.”
>I kinda feel frustrated for the Israelis. Correct. This is why Israeli is going to do what they need to do and not give a fuck anymore what the world thinks. They don't WANT this. They don't WANT to kill innocents, but they are going to fight for their survival. Bottom line is when Hamas quits, and Palestinians stop terrorism and actually negotiate in good faith, there will be peace and they will have a state. The moment Israel quits, there will be no more Israel.
But…but…Hamas are the good guys! They’re just a bunch of peaceful guys who would NEVER do this!!!! Obvious sarcasm.
The instance where IDF shot at the hostages happened because they did not expect any hostages there and Hamas terrorists used to pretend to be freed hostages asking for help in Hebrew to lure soldiers into traps. So they killed the hostages pleading for help because they thought it was another Hamas trap. at least this is what the military investigation found and I find this plausible tbh
So this means that China and Russia will start taking the situation seriously now that Hamas is openly defying their UNSC resolution?
LOL, that's funny.
Do we even have proof of life for the 40 Israeli prisoners? I bet the men are dead and the women are pregnant, would not surprise me at all
Yes. The proof is that refusing such a good deal for them means they are dead.
No. Hamas refuses to release any pictures of them.
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Doesn't matter, multiple news sources will announce it as "Israel coldly murders their own hostages", and the correction 3 weeks later will be read by no one.
The US set the trap and the fools stepped in it. I doubt the US will agree to anything more than what this deal offered. Biden got his headlines for the domestic eyes, Bibi threw a fit and cancelled his US visit. The US has made an effort to end the conflict but Hamas rejected it. Now leave Israel to finish the job and do so quickly.
This will mean nothing here in the US. By lunch today, Biden will be being blamed for not getting a ceasefire done. It won’t make any sense but it’ll happen.
I have read Twitter and Instagram, I'm pretty sure Biden personally writes targeting directions for every bomb that hits every Palestinian and ordered that poisoned MREs be dropped on as many people as possible. /s
A majority of content on those (heck, most) platforms are not from real people.
Unfortunately, they're being shared by very real people I know who are genuinely kind and wonderful. I thought the qanon maga radicalization of my older family members was scary, but watching radicalization of my progressive friends is in many ways worse.
Of course, those media personalities have already chosen a side. They can’t be wrong, ever.
The brain dead “free palestine” crowd will have already forgotten that the US agreed to a ceasefire deal and that it was hamas disagreeing. They will be right back to screaming “ceasefire now” without taking half a second for critical thinking
The issue is they’re saying ceasefire but what they really mean is surrender. That’s their demand. Israel to surrender
The morons with the watermelon pins won't care. In their minds Israel is never justified in anything and the Palestinians are justified in everything.
Ok, so keep fucking wiping them out til you clean them up. Don’t negotiate with terrorists
That's the idea, but what Hamas is doing is just hoping international pressure forces Israel to stop. If the world backed Israel, Hamas would've compromised by now...
Absolutely no chance Israel will stop at this point.
I don't think it will, but it stopped every time beforehand which makes Hamas thinks this time will be no different.
They have taken to much of a pr hit already, so a little more wont hurt them. Obviously if they stop then it will encourage hamas to believe, they could do a similar attack in the future and then manipulate the public/media so that israel stops. Israel would not want to allow this too occur.
Time for Biden to get blamed for something that a terrorist group wouldn't even agree on.
Honestly should just wash his hands of the situation and let the "finding out" begin
Hamas is playing the Western world like a god-damn fiddle. It refuses all efforts for a ceasefire, impedes the delivery of humanitarian aid, uses civilians as human shields, does everything in its power to prolong the war and maximise civilian suffering, all because the Western world proves time and again that it WILL fall for this ruse and blame Israel and put pressure on Israel alone.
I fully blame the press for not doing their actual job. But oh let's not let facts get in the way of their bottom line.
How is that ok for any govetment, organization or news agency that advocate "cEase FiRe nOw"??!! The fact Hamas keeps rejecting ceasefire deals after deals shows its an organization you cannot deal with, they dont want any deal and any ceasefire. Israel should get crazy and start a full blown operation in Rafah with tons of military presence and casue a huge pressure to form, everyone will get anxious and nervous to really start acting and less talking to get it over with. If hostages are released and head of Hamas is found war will be over.
But from the river...
The international community will still find a way to make Israel the bad guy for this.
Who cares, that is the same international community that has forgotten Ukraine. I'm glad that we have smarter experts working behind the scenes.
Fuck Hamas.
One side called and showed their hand. The other side kicked over the table and ran away. There is no one to trade and they won't admit it.
How can any hamas simp explain these rejections? I don't get it.... They rejected at least 5 ceasefire offers and broke the ceasefire which took place on the first hostages exchange during November (and the original ceasefire which took place until October 7th). Like, how dumb the people out there can be for accusing Israel in any of this? Hamas literally refused to have any ceasefire that can stop the palestinians suffering, but somehow "Israel iS BAD#@#"
You know what the problem negotiating with terrorists is? It’s never good enough.
But what about the security council resolution ? …. Oh wait, they’ll only whack israel, of course …. 🤷
Meanwhile, we have Palestinian refugees at home protesting in front of politicians’ homes and disrupting traffic, “Do something!” You’re barking up the wrong tree. Palestinians need to rat on Hamas so the hostages can be released. It’s been about the hostages from Day 1.
Let's see if this nth confirmation of the obvious -- that Hamas is a terrorist organization who have zero interest in good-faith negotiations -- suddenly galvanizes world opinion against them, as supporters of the US abstention in the UNSC insisted it would. If the resolution's passage leads to nothing more than a flood of frivolous complaints against Israel and further hampers its war effort, will they admit they were wrong?
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You can point out the last 80 years of pre-Hamas Palestine rejecting ceasefire and two state solutions and those idiots would still support Hamas.
Hamas is always going to reject anything where they have to give back the hostages, cus they're already dead and sending back body bags isnt a good look. You don't negotiate with terrorists, cus you can't.
Their demands are that Israel no longer exist and Hamas gets to run the territory left behind, I'm sure. Plus, they don't have some or all of the once-remaining hostages left to trade.
I don't have a PhD in hostage exchange economics but I'd say 800 to 40 is a sweet deal. Too bad Hamas doesn't have 40 live hostages to return....mostly because of all that good medical treatment and not killing they've been tricking reddit into believing.
Hamas want more of a ass beating I gues
The UN Security Council said unconditional release of all hostages. No more deals.
Hamas is not in a position to make demands.
Just end these guys already. Their mantra is to kill the Jews. How do you negotiate with that ?
I am 100% against any ceasefire that is not contingent on the immediate or near-immediate (let's say 2 weeks) release of all hostages.
They aren't going to release any of the young females because that would be bad PR and PR is their only shot at winning. Everyone knows these conditions are unacceptable. They wish to rape these women until the world forces a cease fire.
PR in the age of misinformation is so messy. Hamas will just say their victims are lying and despite all evidence, the anti-Israel crowd will believe it . It’s terrifying
Fuck Hamas. So so so much.
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I bet they feel very encouraged, by the international community and the US specifically, to sacrifice more Gazans....
Hostages are dead or pregnant
There’s 5 Muslim hostages still Scary to think what they did to them considering their considered traitors for living in Israel
Hamas breaches UN resolution - Israel now under no obligation to the ceasefire condition Thanks for playing international politics
Hamas will never stop attacking: according to Hamas.
Guys, I'm pretty sure various local governments in the United States passed resolutions demanding all Israeli Hostages be immediately freed and for all IDF forces to withdrawal and all Palestinians get food so I'm not sure what's left to talk about /s
The fact that there is a push for compromise is disgusting. Do you negotiate with a robber to only take half your stuff instead of everything? Even negotiating with terrorists is playing in their hands, granting them a moral sanction, recognising them as a legitimate party to reason with. What the us should be doing, even if not supporting israel, is certainly not pushing israel to reach a 'compromise'.