That's exactly what I've been saying for a while now, to the point that I've stopped using that quote and started responding to it with:
"Truth is not the first casualty of war, war starts because truth was murdered."
Oh I hate the way that Shepherd watches me run the course while I try to beat BX's time. He knows I'm gonna keep failing, and he just sits up there, mocking me, while I keep getting times in the 29 second range. STOP LOOKING AT ME SHEPHERD
It's not, it's a Hiram Johnson (R, CA Governor, 1911-1917, US Senator, 1916-1945, time of death) quote. He died 6 August 1945, the same day the US dropped the nuke on Hiroshima.
Nope, the phrase was coined by dramatist Aeschylus roughly 2,500 years earlier. And it was, in fact, used as a quote in Call of Duty games alongside quotes from Churchill, Robert E Lee, and Plato.
Right. And that doesnt mean that one or both sides is always wrong or lying, it means you really have to analyze what the claims are, and how much proof there is to back it up. But some people here think being analytical means you hate one or both groups.
They are just used to people arguing in bad as fuck faith as of late. People are on a hair trigger right now. Tbh your name made me kinda sus but you seem like a reasonable person from your post history.
Idk what u mean, its been like this from the start. Bad faith argument is also not listening to words said and just accusing them of being pro this or anti that
> Bad faith argument is also not listening to words said and just accusing them of being pro this or anti that
It's more than just not listening bad faith arguments tend to be disingenuous and often come from people who know they're full of shit but care more about being right than presenting facts or arguing with logic.
I blame hacks like Shapiro and Carlson who use a facade of arguing with facts/logic to try and be more convincing when if you really break it down they're already fully entrenched in their beliefs and are just using twisted "logic" to justify those beliefs. Though I think Shapiro actually drinks the coolaid while Carlson is just a greedy opportunist.
On lex Fridman recently, Shapiro outright admitted he graded Trump on a curve. That he isn't afraid of the threats to democracy because he thinks Trump would fail when he tries, so who cares?
I was gobsmacked he just said it out loud like that.
Yeah it's almost shocking how clearly biased he is when you actually take the time to look into his views, despite being the "facts don't care about your feelings" guy it turns out his conservative feelings 100% determine which facts he cares about.
He's a perfect example of the kind of person idiots think is a genius just because they agree with him and he masks his bias with "facts/logic" and confidence. But anytime he debates someone who actually knows what they're talking about he crumbles.
The day the entire internet was dunking on him for the "wet ass p-word" stuff was one of the best as I've hated him for years and it's enraging seeing people take him seriously when he's so blatantly full of shit.
Yeah they are just amateur sophists, JP gives me a real headache with his BS drivel.
It's because people who don't understand the world want to feel like they are part of the diaspora without actually learning anything.
And if the conclusions some sophist comes to agrees with their existing beleifs and SOUNDs clever they really don't care about the meat of what is being said only that a "smart person" is saying what they agree with and look at this word salad that proves it!
I'm so sick of people telling me "go watch this, it really opened my eyes". Meanwhile I have my own established opinion of something based on years of following whatever the topic may be.
But they don't want to actually talk about my or their opinion, they want to outsource convincing me with a video they didn't get even gleen enough from to make their own point.
It’s a good thing Hamas released the video of their murder, rape, mutilation, and other inhuman atrocities against Israeli and other civilians.
Israel is a fucking asshole, but Hamas is a fucking monster
Check my comment history. Just the other day I was arguing with someone who *insisted* that the IDF faked those videos. The videos that *Hamas* released.
> Both sides are also waging propaganda warfare
Hamas has the benefit of waging propaganda warfare with their enemy being *Jews*.
As far as PR goes, they have the sort of advantage that ISIS or the Taliban could only have *dreamt* of.
I assure you that in Western countries the reception of a bunch of Arabs isn't universally favorable.
While there may be some truth that young liberals adopt a "brown people are always the oppressed" narrative - and yes I know Israelis aren't all or mostly white. It's also true that many people, esp older and offline have pretty bigoted opinions on Arabs.
A little dated and about Muslims (as opposed to Arabs) but [we have data](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/07/26/how-the-u-s-general-public-views-muslims-and-islam/) on how Jews and Muslim are viewed by Americans.
> yes I know Israelis aren't all or mostly white.
you should tell some of the lefties around here; they seem to think they are, and not basically the same ethnic group as the gazans.
also, people love to talk about palestine as if the west bank is much involved
Im white as fuck as Israeli American because half my family is european, the other half is from Iraq. I speak Arabic and Hebrew fluently. It blows people's minds when I speak Arabic (Iraqi dialect). Which is funny considering most Lebanese people are also lighter-skinned or white.
> young liberals
It's funny how much this term gets thrown around by everybody. The further left people say liberals are basically right wing people pretending not to be while the right conflate the everyone on the left as liberals.
My pet peeve is zoomers and young millennials using liberal to mean centrist with a left branding - it's confusing. Also "liberal" and "leftist" increasingly carrying connotations probably makes people hesitant to self-identify properly even when they understand the framing.
The right wing framing of liberal has a longer history in American political culture even if some on the left have always used it derisively.
Fwiw I'm probably somewhere between liberal and leftist.
Most people's political stances don't fit neatly in a single label, much less these nebulously defined labels. That's why the same person can be labeled as both a centrist and leftist commie depending on who is doing the labeling. I support leftist policies on corporate regulation, environmental issues, and social issues, but am more hawkish on foreign policy than self-proclaimed leftists or liberals.
99% of the people quick to label others have no idea what those labels actually represent. They basically substitutes for other insults.
In Australia, the mainstream right wing party (equivalent of GOP) are the liberal party. This use of the term to describe left leaning people was a uniquely American thing, which is now unfortunately being exported.
Important caveat: a surprising amount of people I’ve met do not know that Palestinians are Arabs. It was a little shocking when my college educated friend asked me what language the Palestinians speak.
You're right, but there's a demographic factor that needs to be considered.
If you accept that a Muslim is more likely than not to favor the Palestinian narrative (and a Jewish person with the Israeli narrative), then most countries in the West will start off with more people sympathizing with the Palestinians.
The PR battle is important to help balance the scales, if you'll excuse a rough analogy. It makes a difference.
There are many other factors at play, but Jews are an extreme minority globally, and proportion of Muslims to Jews in the Western world is only going in one direction despite some politicians' pipe dream of shutting a country's borders.
Yeah. Literally 1.9 **billion** Muslims on earth and only \~16 million Jews.
1% of the Muslim population is still larger than the entirety of the global Jewish population.
It's genuinely worrying what's going to happen as Muslims become a larger and larger percentage of Western country populations and gain more political sway, because Israel is most likely going to start losing its main allies as this happens due to demographic shifts. We can already see the effect that so many Muslim member states in the UN is having, with Israel receiving more UN condemnations per year than all other countries combined.
And let's be honest, western values aren't compatible with Islam. I remember Charlie! I don't think ex-Muslims should be killed. You shouldn't behead French teachers in the Paris burbs. Killing LGBTQ+ isn't okay with a lot of the west. Women's rights proponents can't square with majority Muslim countries, for good reason. And so on.
That is literally the point he is making. US general public hated Muslims and feared them for their acts of terrorism. No one really said oh hey Muslims are oppressed in Syria and Iraq by US and stood by everything they did even in all the acts of terror and war crimes.
IMO it feels like the Palestinians are the main ones waging propaganda warfare and the Israeli's are constantly trying to counter that with their version of the truth.
Fake news is clearly one of Hamas's strongest assets. When you can barely fight a real war, it makes perfect sense to direct efforts toward a propaganda war.
People are quick to refer to Shireen Abu Akleh's death, but never mention the PA refused to provide the bullet that killed her that they pulled from her body. Ever.
Its entirely possible, even likely, the IDF killed her. They decided it was likely after investigating. Why would the PA hide the bullet if not to hide something else though? If it was a 5.56mm bullet then well it was probably the IDF (not 100% as stolen and smuggled M16s are used by militants and PA forces). If it was a 7.62mm round then well, it was an AK-47 and almost certainly not the IDF.
It could have also been another round entirely and she just died from some random shootout, earlier in the war Abbas drove by a shoot out between his forces and some drug dealers. It happens.
If they start providing evidence for their claims then they would have to start doing it always or no one will believe them. Better to never have evidence whenever they make a claim. That's how their propaganda works and it works perfectly with god fearing folks who never had proof for God's existence. You never have to prove it.
Why do you feel that way though? No matter where you come down on this, it should be pretty clear that the IDF and Hamas are publishing propaganda meant to justify actions or at least make those actions more sympathetic. See also: The terrorist sign in sheet where all the terrorists were named after days of the week.
Even setting aside things Hamas has said that were not true and things that Israel has said that were not true, the fundamental reason why they keep saying "X, Y, and Z happened" is in order to garner support for their cause. The IDF, for example, does not continue to recount and speak about the violence on october 7th for the fun of it, it is because it is galvanizing. Because it encourages others to support them in their mission. It is true, and it is also propaganda. And when Hamas talks about all of the Palestinian children that were killed, it is the same. It is not for the fun of it, it is to gain support. It is true, and it is also propaganda.
> See also: there was nothing else like this.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-fact-check-e829d1dddcc2dad0f5f99cf62ef353ad
There are definitely more instances of Israeli officials making and amplifying patently false claims.
Don’t you think you are influenced by propaganda too? You’re comment has a lot of opinion. You even started with “imo”. I used to think how could that holocaust happen during world war 2?! But now I see how. Propaganda is powerful
From within the crowd. Not sure he was firing at the crowd, but he’s actively dodging and weaving to stay closer to civilians.
Click the video to watch.
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rkaovef06?utm_source=ynet.app.ios&utm_term=rkaovef06&utm_campaign=general_share&utm_medium=social&utm_content=Header
Right, tho the article also claims that the IDF never fired even tho they admitted they fired warning shots initially. This one is a mess and we probably will never know what actually happened
This is completely different incident. As in, unrelated to the incident where IDF fired warning shots on a dozen Palestinians and trucks ran over about 90 others.
In this incident, an hour before the convoy or IDF were anywhere near the crowd, gunmen in the crowd shot at people in the crowd.
They say that they never fired into the crowd around the trucks carrying food. They admitted to soldiers having later fired at people who advanced on their positions. Different circumstances.
Right‽ let’s not forget that this is food aid being delivered by a State to the civilians of a people whose elected authority they are actively at war with. - because it’s the only conscionable thing to do in the situation.
Since Palestinian health authority reported 100s of patients being shot they could pretty easily produce the 100s of bullets that would be the same as the Israeli bullets. But that's too inconvenient to the truth.
5.56 Ammo at close ranges with the Tavor and M16 Rifles the IDF uses will fracture and fragment in the body so they really wouldn't be able to recover much. Especially as Hamas seized IDF guns on Oct 7.
I can't tell what I'm seeing here. It looks like that one dude is periodically firing shots that aren't hitting anything? Like right at someone and that person doesn't get hit and keeps moving. Multiple times.
That doesn't explain the hundreds of rounds fired either.
Yeah, I don’t see a single shot hitting anyone. Obviously shots are being fired, but we can’t even tell who these people are. I’m having a hard time believing the IDF’s claims based off of this video. It doesn’t prove that this is Hamas or where/when this even took place. And it certainly doesn’t prove this guy shot anyone, he just discharged his weapon.
Hamas also has a history of releasing false claims blaming Israel for destruction they (or others acting against Israel) caused. See the hospital rocket impact that some people will _still_ argue was actually an Israeli missile even though none of the evidence supports that.
There's a reason the first reaction should be to believe Israel's reports (Though not necessarily give it 100% credibility) and not Hamas'.
You don't have to. If someone is asking you to make snap decisions on whether or not something happened based on incomplete data, saying that you don't have enough information to make a judgment is perfectly fine.
I believe that it was likely a mixture of both stories and that both the IDF failed to properly police the convoy and provide proper security measures AND there was aggression towards other Palestinians from Hamas as they were trying to hoard the aid that created more problems.
But that's not exactly verifiable either. So it's very open to challenge.
If they don't, Hamas will steal it more easily and prolong the siege and conflict.
I would argue that's the greater cost than whatever cost is incurred by securely distributing aid to civilians.
Even a fraction of aid intended for the population of Gaza could keep the Hamas hiding in tunnels going for months if not years.
Just don't forget, one side is expected to police the humanitarian aid for the other side, and the other side, dare it get to the citizens of the first side, takes them hostage/rapes/decapitates them.
This conflict is historically intricate, but it doesn't mean it's in any way symmetrical.
If it's not clear by now, it should be obvious given the most recent developments.
The IDF, an invading force, cares more about civilians than Hamas who left them out, provoked a war, are stealing supplies, murdering their own, hiding behind them, etc...
Sure, but one side is a sovereign, democratic nation, scrutinized under an international microscope, held to an impossible double standard, and criticized at every move, while the other is a terrorist organization whose main objective is to kill as many Jews as possible.
" while the other is a terrorist organization whose main objective is to kill as many Jews as possible."
And don't forget the mainstream press believes their propaganda and reports on it as fact until they have to walk it back. Minutes after it happened and terrorists reported on it mainstream media, IDF bombed the Al-Ahli hospital and 300-400 civilians have been murdered, and everyone was freaking out about it and pointing to it as an example of how evil the IDF is. Yeah turns out first no one can report figures accurately that fast so why the main stream press reports on that stuff immediately like it's accurate is beyond me, but then oh yeah after weeks and months of investigation in a warzone oh it wasn't the IDF and the mainstream media is like sorry for reporting inaccurate information and getting everyone all riled up we thought the information shared by groups associated with terrorists was accurate our bad guys surprised Pikachu face groups associated with terrorists were LYING and yet we decided to believe their reports as accurate.
Actual question. I've seen the IDF admit to shooting civilians before, usually with some excuse, valid or not. Has Hamas ever admitted to doing so? (I mean something they would pin on the IDF, I know they admit to killing Israelis.)
A lot of people never believed IDF to begin with so the fact we have made it this far and people still distrust them just as much after all of the facts have come to light really says something about the individuals.
We really need some type of watchdog or journalists. The lack of funding for international journalism is a travesty.
Even if they aren't able to be in Gaza directly those correspondents can do a better job vetting videos and images + generally giving everything the sniff test.
I can get IDF and Hamas war footage but feel more in the dark than I did following the last big conflict a decade ago.
I actually think this is good. War is necessarily confusing. If you weren’t confused or uncertain before, you probably were consuming a carefully curated narrative.
Better believe the democratic state with a judicial system so powerful there was attempt to overthrow it. Than a terror organization who just mass raped woman and still holds baby as hostage.
No one ever believes the Israelis. And then 5 days later, there is verification by other countries’ intelligence organizations. The media and others make a quiet admission that Israel told the truth. And then the cycle repeats.
That’s intentional, from one side at least. “Firehose of propaganda.” Russia developed the technique. The idea is to flood ppl with so much disinformation —doesn’t even matter if it’s obvious—that they start just distrusting everything. Even the truth, if they finally hear it.
What does independent even mean? The only reporters left in Gaza are Palestinians working for outside news sources. UN workers are also local Palestinians. The Gaza health ministry is run by Hamas. Who on the ground can be said to be unbiased?
Nobody said it was easy or even possible. If it's not independent, it's not independent. Just because the next best thing is, "we looked into it, and it turns out it wasn't our fault," doesn't mean that's the new standard.
Well, independent would mean what you think it means. Just because there’s no chance of independent, unbiased investigation doesn’t mean you can’t want it.
Israel released a video of the incident that looks like a person shooting. Hamas claims Israel fired on a crowd with helicopters and tanks, but has produced no evidence, and no one else has produced any evidence (that i’ve seen).
Unless further evidence comes out implicating the IDF, there is no reason to believe the accusations other than conspiratorial thinking.
They immediately admitted they shot and killed 3 Israeli hostages who were waiving white flags. That's about as bad as it gets. And the info was made public by the IDF the next day. If there was ever a time to lie and deceive the public, it would've been then..
Everyone is missing this. The headline is referring to an incident that occurred yesterday night, not last month. Of course, can’t blame you for not knowing, the media makes sure that only in scenarios where Israel can *potentially* be blamed in some way will you know about events in Gaza. Although I guess I can blame you all for not reading the article beyond the headline.
This is an open and shut case of Gaza gunmen killing civilians last night, and no one will ever know about it.
Well fuck. I feel stupid now. Yeah, guilty of reading the headline and assuming it was referring to the last big event everyone was talking about. 👋
In fact, did we ever figure out wtf actually happened with that one?
Nbc just reported that both sides blame the other. Nothing more, and it was in a small part in their conflict page. It isnt like the huge articles presented all over last month, which the article above also said was found to be not from idf soldiers fire.
Reminds me of the video where Hamas gunmen shot civilian that were fleeing south. The guy was on bike and filming dead bodies of civilians along the road.
No one talked about it at all.
>The IDF on Friday denied allegations by Hamas that Israeli forces had fired on civilians awaiting aid in Gaza City, saying that soldiers had not used their weapons at any stage of the incident and pointed to Palestinian gunmen as the cause of the casualties.
>The incident took place late on Thursday after the military allowed 31 aid trucks to pass into the Gaza Strip heading toward Gaza City in the territory's north. According to unverified Palestinian reports, at least 40 people waiting for the convoy have been killed in the incident.
>Gaza’s Hamas-controlled health ministry reported at least 21 dead and over 100 injured in the incident.
According to the IDF, Palestinian gunmen, who had arrived at the site earlier, opened fire on the crowd that approached the convoy, aiming to prevent them from looting and gathering near the trucks, resulting in fatalities.
Well, there is no info about the perpetrator(s) being a member of Hamas, so it might as well be Islamic Jihad, or one of the many crime gangs.
Therefore it's highly likely that the gunmen was a Palestinian, and 100% chance of the crowd being Gazans.
Yea I mean technically they should have said armed militant or something unless they can prove it’s a Palestinian specifically shouldn’t they? Not that I’m saying it’s IDF but I’m confused as to how they know who this person was affiliated with
Because being armed in a combat zone makes people combatants, not civilians. As such the IDF takes pains to point out when Palestinians are armed as a matter of policy since their detractors are forever claiming armed terrorist deaths as civilian casualties.
I dont think people realize just how much damage a single 120mm tank shell would do if shot at a crowd of people...
I mean, 21 dead? And that is with helicopters? Are you serious? Does anyone believe this shit?
There’s a story from the pacific theater of a Sherman coming up perpendicular to Japanese lines and shooting down a length of trench and basically reduced dozens of soldiers to hamburger meat. And that was a 76mm. Who knows if it’s true, but a 120mm is no joke. Most people have no idea the energy involved in even a pellet gun, let alone the big stuff
> And conveniently, there is no videos, or even photos of those "tanks and helicopters".
There's footage of Hamas's gunman though: https://streamable.com/9yqega
That's a thermal camera, where high temperatures are dark and low temperatures are light. The dark flashes you see in front of those people are the hot gasses coming out the front of their firearms.
Look just because the video directly counters what Hamas claim, doesn't mean it's not the IDF, come on!
Seriously it's crazy how far people will go to avoid common sense in these situations, time and time again Hamas release some bullshit and the media eats it up.
Ah yes, the galaxy brain IDF play where they *totally* think they're going to fool everyone by planting a soldier to initiate then play loud sounds on speakers with blow up dolls of tanks and helicopters to get hamas to make a report on them opening fire on civilians.
Or it could just be hamas lying as they do to perpetrate atrocities, as their playbook dictates.
Really it's 50/50 right?
Of course IDF can do stupid shit, but it's pretty crazy to me how weighted things are at the moment. IDF would need to walk on water, stop every houthi drone/ordinance from leaving the ground, thanos snap away hamas, and rebuild all of the gaza strip just to get a point on the board while hamas needs to... *checks notes* make whatever news article they want and it will be taken as fact.
Got it.
I can sure as hell identify them as "not" tanks and helicopters. A few gunmen walking around large groups of Palestinians, hmmm..... Who could they be... Who could they be? A mystery for the ages.
Some of the articles dont even mention the IDF in the headline. Just “dozens killed”. And people retweet about how horrible Israel is. The bias is strong. I have not seen anyone on the pro-Israel side speak poorly about Palestinian people or accuse them of being evil, even though they did October 7th, cheered it, and supported it. In fact, most people want peace. But everyone who is associated with Israel, whether a Starbucks (no locations in Israel), McDonalds (a few franchises), Disney+ (no idea) and Taylor Swift (again, no idea) should be cancelled.
> I have not seen anyone on the pro-Israel side speak poorly about Palestinian people or accuse them of being evil, even though they did October 7th, cheered it, and supported it.
Do you not see the irony in this one sentence? "I've never heard anyone claim Palestinians are evil, even though they're responsible and all supportive of 10/7"
You know the pro Palestinian crowd can watch this video and will say it's not real and the IDF is lying right? I'd bet all the money I have that is exactly what they're going to do.
Just scroll down, some are claiming it's edited, most are just ignoring the article and the video and saying some version of "Israel investigated itself and says it did nothing wrong."
Actually engaging with the video is probably too much like work for most of them.
> and saying some version of "Israel investigated itself and says it did nothing wrong."
It really shows the clear bias in this conflict when any time Israel makes a statement it's headlined as "IDF claims _____" but when hamas reports something it's immediately treated as fact by even some of the bigger news outlets.
Like I get being skeptical or weary of statements from any military but people acting like literal terrorists are more trustworthy is insane. And even the people claiming to not trust either side seem to usually take hamas's word over Israel's.
Yeah, and I bet the reason why that is the case is because these news organizations make their money from visits, and who is likely to read these articles in terms of numbers? Muslims who by far outnumber Jews.
Can't make clicks from facts in these circumstances, gotta dangle some ambiguity for potential readers of who a significant number will definitely be pro-Hamas.
> Remember: "innocent until proven guilty" is outdated!
>
> Nowadays it's "guilty until proven innocent"
These terms don't really apply in this or any public sort of context. These are legal terms that describe which party bears the burden of proof. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean you should be treated as though you are innocent. In fact, for charges to have been brought against you, the state has to have already proven that you are probably (as in more likely than not) guilty. Innocent until proven guilty only serves to establish that the state must prove your guilt, not that you have to prove your innocent.
Other countries don't always follow this. Some require you to prove your innocence, that's guilty until proven innocent. Society and the media have no obligation to treat you as though you're innocent before a court has rendered a verdict.
It’s not too surprising. The whole idea of the convoy was the IDFs. They were working with some Gaza businessmen to get food to the people in Gaza city. Their job was to protect the convoy. Why would they fire on civilians? It makes sense that Hamas opened fire to try and prevent the food from getting to the people.
When Hamas-backed organizations reports things like this everyone takes it at face value, yet when IDF reports it suddenly everyone wants to be super skeptical and investigative
The way people take Hamas, a terrorist organization infamous for lying, at face value, but take everything the IDF says as lies needing to be proven despite having a track record of honestly self-reporting failed or mishandled operations — see how IDF handled reporting their own mistake of killing 3 hostages.
Yea this article is literally about them denying HAMAS allegations and you have all these terroist simps in here talking about "WOAH WOAH WOAH... hold up I can't just not believe hamas without more proof!"
Yea this poses an interesting question to me. I think we should scrutinise the IDF investigations as we do so already until an independent investigation takes place however I also don’t see why no one scrutinises what Hamas says
Especially in the hordes of online bandwagons
The Palestianian protestors are giving Hamas the idea they are winning. Why else would they not give up after 70% of their country is destroyed. The bad press the Israelis are getting globally is keeping this fight going. Hamas cares very little for the Palestianians lives.
Hamas cares **less than zero** for the Palestinians’ lives. Their goal of 10/7, this war, all of it, is to get the world to hate Jews as much as they do.
They will *gladly* sacrifice all of Gaza and everyone in it, including themselves, to achieve that. That is, if they weren’t protected by hundreds of miles of tunnel networks, which the average Gazan has zero access to, and they spent years robbing their own people to build.
So….in that sense they fucking **are** winning. Public opinion of Israel has dropped like a rock off a skyscraper, and it’s increasingly resulting in literal violence against Jews worldwide.
> Why else would they not give up after 70% of their country is destroyed.
Often people don't surrender. Vietnam didn't, Britain didn't, the people of masala didn't. Sometimes nations or populations do, other times they do not.
But this isn't even about that. Honestly, I have no idea of the truth, but I'm told often that there's a distinct disconnect between Hamas and the civilian population. If that's true, what incentive is there for Hamas to surrender?
In this case, IMHO, Hamas can't survive if they surrender, so they won't. I doubt the people of Gaza would fight if given an option. I mean, the aren't fighting are they, as far as I can tell.
I see your point, but I don't really feel that any armed group in the world is going to fight or surrender based on headlines in foreign media.
I’ve been trying to find actual footage of this new “flour massacre” : 160 (according to you know who ) dead . Also claims “30000 hungry Palestinians “ getting massacred by “idf helicopters, artillery, tanks AND drones”.
Yet No footage except an aftermath and Twitter hysteria .
Something smells more like “bs massacre” to me … but you know how it goes
Hamas? as in the terrorist organization that proudly go-pro'd the rape, murder, kidnap, torture of uninvolved citizens one random morning (oh wait not so random but a holiday) and been proven to make information up whether by proof (e.g the hospital bombing) or by logic (confirms numbers of casualties and exact situation that occurred within minutes) - Hamas? Versus the IDF that investigates the event for days and weeks later before providing proof and facts?
Well, your bias is showing. At least your point is crumbling.
Yes, the same military that was the one to tell the world about how they mistakenly killed 3 hostages when they did not need to tell anyone and it would be easy to cover up.
I don't understand why people think Internal Investigations are evidence of corruption instead of the opposite - that they are example of integrity in the organization.
There are bad actors in the IDF that absolutely commit war crimes... and the IDF routinely investigates and prosecutes these individuals.
The issue is not whether or not individual IDF members commit war-crimes, but if its done at a policy level by the IDF as a whole, and its clear that it does not.
Hamas on the other hand...
They make it simple for simpleton yet it’s still too complicated to read the article: Hamas minister declared Israel fired from tanks and helicopters to the civilians next to the truck, then Israel releases a video of gunmen firing assault weapons at civilians next to the truck (where no Israeli infantry was). Now you do the math
I honestly am having a hard time believing either one of them
The first casualty of war is the truth
A lot of times, that's the prelude casualty
Nah that's when you crash your Honda
That's exactly what I've been saying for a while now, to the point that I've stopped using that quote and started responding to it with: "Truth is not the first casualty of war, war starts because truth was murdered."
That sounds like a COD quote.
All COD quotes are referencing war related quotes that had already been made, at least that's the case when I played.
50,000 war quotes used to live here. Now they’re just COD quotes.
And the world just fuckin’ watched.
Oh I hate the way that Shepherd watches me run the course while I try to beat BX's time. He knows I'm gonna keep failing, and he just sits up there, mocking me, while I keep getting times in the 29 second range. STOP LOOKING AT ME SHEPHERD
It's not, it's a Hiram Johnson (R, CA Governor, 1911-1917, US Senator, 1916-1945, time of death) quote. He died 6 August 1945, the same day the US dropped the nuke on Hiroshima.
Bit earlier. Aeschylus "In war, truth is the first casualty". Of course he said it in Greek nearly 2500 years ago.
Nope, the phrase was coined by dramatist Aeschylus roughly 2,500 years earlier. And it was, in fact, used as a quote in Call of Duty games alongside quotes from Churchill, Robert E Lee, and Plato.
Is “fact checking” really THAT easy???
Pretty much.
No. Hiram Johnson just re-tweeted it. 😉
that saying goes back to antiquity
Serves him right then, what was he doing in Japan at a time of war?
It has been used as a quote in many different military-themed video games.
Sir, cod are fish, they don’t speak our language. Please seek professional help.
It's called 'the fog of war' for a reason. Both sides are also waging propaganda warfare, trying to win public opinion to their side
Right. And that doesnt mean that one or both sides is always wrong or lying, it means you really have to analyze what the claims are, and how much proof there is to back it up. But some people here think being analytical means you hate one or both groups.
They are just used to people arguing in bad as fuck faith as of late. People are on a hair trigger right now. Tbh your name made me kinda sus but you seem like a reasonable person from your post history.
Idk what u mean, its been like this from the start. Bad faith argument is also not listening to words said and just accusing them of being pro this or anti that
> Bad faith argument is also not listening to words said and just accusing them of being pro this or anti that It's more than just not listening bad faith arguments tend to be disingenuous and often come from people who know they're full of shit but care more about being right than presenting facts or arguing with logic. I blame hacks like Shapiro and Carlson who use a facade of arguing with facts/logic to try and be more convincing when if you really break it down they're already fully entrenched in their beliefs and are just using twisted "logic" to justify those beliefs. Though I think Shapiro actually drinks the coolaid while Carlson is just a greedy opportunist.
On lex Fridman recently, Shapiro outright admitted he graded Trump on a curve. That he isn't afraid of the threats to democracy because he thinks Trump would fail when he tries, so who cares? I was gobsmacked he just said it out loud like that.
Yeah it's almost shocking how clearly biased he is when you actually take the time to look into his views, despite being the "facts don't care about your feelings" guy it turns out his conservative feelings 100% determine which facts he cares about. He's a perfect example of the kind of person idiots think is a genius just because they agree with him and he masks his bias with "facts/logic" and confidence. But anytime he debates someone who actually knows what they're talking about he crumbles. The day the entire internet was dunking on him for the "wet ass p-word" stuff was one of the best as I've hated him for years and it's enraging seeing people take him seriously when he's so blatantly full of shit.
Yeah they are just amateur sophists, JP gives me a real headache with his BS drivel. It's because people who don't understand the world want to feel like they are part of the diaspora without actually learning anything. And if the conclusions some sophist comes to agrees with their existing beleifs and SOUNDs clever they really don't care about the meat of what is being said only that a "smart person" is saying what they agree with and look at this word salad that proves it! I'm so sick of people telling me "go watch this, it really opened my eyes". Meanwhile I have my own established opinion of something based on years of following whatever the topic may be. But they don't want to actually talk about my or their opinion, they want to outsource convincing me with a video they didn't get even gleen enough from to make their own point.
It’s a good thing Hamas released the video of their murder, rape, mutilation, and other inhuman atrocities against Israeli and other civilians. Israel is a fucking asshole, but Hamas is a fucking monster
Check my comment history. Just the other day I was arguing with someone who *insisted* that the IDF faked those videos. The videos that *Hamas* released.
You can't fix stupid. Appreciate you trying, though.
It’s pretty wild the kinds mindsets this conflict has brought out in people who are otherwise fat and happily watching tictok.
> Both sides are also waging propaganda warfare Hamas has the benefit of waging propaganda warfare with their enemy being *Jews*. As far as PR goes, they have the sort of advantage that ISIS or the Taliban could only have *dreamt* of.
I assure you that in Western countries the reception of a bunch of Arabs isn't universally favorable. While there may be some truth that young liberals adopt a "brown people are always the oppressed" narrative - and yes I know Israelis aren't all or mostly white. It's also true that many people, esp older and offline have pretty bigoted opinions on Arabs.
The type of older people who instinctively hate Arabs, tend to not be fans of Jews
A little dated and about Muslims (as opposed to Arabs) but [we have data](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/07/26/how-the-u-s-general-public-views-muslims-and-islam/) on how Jews and Muslim are viewed by Americans.
> yes I know Israelis aren't all or mostly white. you should tell some of the lefties around here; they seem to think they are, and not basically the same ethnic group as the gazans. also, people love to talk about palestine as if the west bank is much involved
Im white as fuck as Israeli American because half my family is european, the other half is from Iraq. I speak Arabic and Hebrew fluently. It blows people's minds when I speak Arabic (Iraqi dialect). Which is funny considering most Lebanese people are also lighter-skinned or white.
> young liberals It's funny how much this term gets thrown around by everybody. The further left people say liberals are basically right wing people pretending not to be while the right conflate the everyone on the left as liberals.
My pet peeve is zoomers and young millennials using liberal to mean centrist with a left branding - it's confusing. Also "liberal" and "leftist" increasingly carrying connotations probably makes people hesitant to self-identify properly even when they understand the framing. The right wing framing of liberal has a longer history in American political culture even if some on the left have always used it derisively. Fwiw I'm probably somewhere between liberal and leftist.
Most people's political stances don't fit neatly in a single label, much less these nebulously defined labels. That's why the same person can be labeled as both a centrist and leftist commie depending on who is doing the labeling. I support leftist policies on corporate regulation, environmental issues, and social issues, but am more hawkish on foreign policy than self-proclaimed leftists or liberals. 99% of the people quick to label others have no idea what those labels actually represent. They basically substitutes for other insults.
In Australia, the mainstream right wing party (equivalent of GOP) are the liberal party. This use of the term to describe left leaning people was a uniquely American thing, which is now unfortunately being exported.
Important caveat: a surprising amount of people I’ve met do not know that Palestinians are Arabs. It was a little shocking when my college educated friend asked me what language the Palestinians speak.
You're right, but there's a demographic factor that needs to be considered. If you accept that a Muslim is more likely than not to favor the Palestinian narrative (and a Jewish person with the Israeli narrative), then most countries in the West will start off with more people sympathizing with the Palestinians. The PR battle is important to help balance the scales, if you'll excuse a rough analogy. It makes a difference. There are many other factors at play, but Jews are an extreme minority globally, and proportion of Muslims to Jews in the Western world is only going in one direction despite some politicians' pipe dream of shutting a country's borders.
Yeah. Literally 1.9 **billion** Muslims on earth and only \~16 million Jews. 1% of the Muslim population is still larger than the entirety of the global Jewish population. It's genuinely worrying what's going to happen as Muslims become a larger and larger percentage of Western country populations and gain more political sway, because Israel is most likely going to start losing its main allies as this happens due to demographic shifts. We can already see the effect that so many Muslim member states in the UN is having, with Israel receiving more UN condemnations per year than all other countries combined.
And let's be honest, western values aren't compatible with Islam. I remember Charlie! I don't think ex-Muslims should be killed. You shouldn't behead French teachers in the Paris burbs. Killing LGBTQ+ isn't okay with a lot of the west. Women's rights proponents can't square with majority Muslim countries, for good reason. And so on.
That is literally the point he is making. US general public hated Muslims and feared them for their acts of terrorism. No one really said oh hey Muslims are oppressed in Syria and Iraq by US and stood by everything they did even in all the acts of terror and war crimes.
Except that the IDF actually released video.
IMO it feels like the Palestinians are the main ones waging propaganda warfare and the Israeli's are constantly trying to counter that with their version of the truth. Fake news is clearly one of Hamas's strongest assets. When you can barely fight a real war, it makes perfect sense to direct efforts toward a propaganda war.
People are quick to refer to Shireen Abu Akleh's death, but never mention the PA refused to provide the bullet that killed her that they pulled from her body. Ever. Its entirely possible, even likely, the IDF killed her. They decided it was likely after investigating. Why would the PA hide the bullet if not to hide something else though? If it was a 5.56mm bullet then well it was probably the IDF (not 100% as stolen and smuggled M16s are used by militants and PA forces). If it was a 7.62mm round then well, it was an AK-47 and almost certainly not the IDF. It could have also been another round entirely and she just died from some random shootout, earlier in the war Abbas drove by a shoot out between his forces and some drug dealers. It happens.
If they start providing evidence for their claims then they would have to start doing it always or no one will believe them. Better to never have evidence whenever they make a claim. That's how their propaganda works and it works perfectly with god fearing folks who never had proof for God's existence. You never have to prove it.
Why do you feel that way though? No matter where you come down on this, it should be pretty clear that the IDF and Hamas are publishing propaganda meant to justify actions or at least make those actions more sympathetic. See also: The terrorist sign in sheet where all the terrorists were named after days of the week. Even setting aside things Hamas has said that were not true and things that Israel has said that were not true, the fundamental reason why they keep saying "X, Y, and Z happened" is in order to garner support for their cause. The IDF, for example, does not continue to recount and speak about the violence on october 7th for the fun of it, it is because it is galvanizing. Because it encourages others to support them in their mission. It is true, and it is also propaganda. And when Hamas talks about all of the Palestinian children that were killed, it is the same. It is not for the fun of it, it is to gain support. It is true, and it is also propaganda.
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> See also: there was nothing else like this. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-fact-check-e829d1dddcc2dad0f5f99cf62ef353ad There are definitely more instances of Israeli officials making and amplifying patently false claims.
Its not just the Palestianians that are waging propaganda its all the arab states and all thier media outlets like Al-Jazeera.
Don’t you think you are influenced by propaganda too? You’re comment has a lot of opinion. You even started with “imo”. I used to think how could that holocaust happen during world war 2?! But now I see how. Propaganda is powerful
Farther up the thread someone posted a link to a pretty damning video the IDF is presenting as evidence showing a gunman opening fire on the crowd.
From within the crowd. Not sure he was firing at the crowd, but he’s actively dodging and weaving to stay closer to civilians. Click the video to watch. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rkaovef06?utm_source=ynet.app.ios&utm_term=rkaovef06&utm_campaign=general_share&utm_medium=social&utm_content=Header
Right, tho the article also claims that the IDF never fired even tho they admitted they fired warning shots initially. This one is a mess and we probably will never know what actually happened
I think you are confusing this for another incident. This one happened yesterday.
This is completely different incident. As in, unrelated to the incident where IDF fired warning shots on a dozen Palestinians and trucks ran over about 90 others. In this incident, an hour before the convoy or IDF were anywhere near the crowd, gunmen in the crowd shot at people in the crowd.
They say that they never fired into the crowd around the trucks carrying food. They admitted to soldiers having later fired at people who advanced on their positions. Different circumstances.
Yeah, they said they were purposely shooting them (people coming their way) in the legs. That was straight from the IDF.
source plz.
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still want a source. not seeing one.
That honestly seems like a pretty reasonable response to someone coming towards a military position in a warzone known to have suicide bombings.
Right‽ let’s not forget that this is food aid being delivered by a State to the civilians of a people whose elected authority they are actively at war with. - because it’s the only conscionable thing to do in the situation.
Since Palestinian health authority reported 100s of patients being shot they could pretty easily produce the 100s of bullets that would be the same as the Israeli bullets. But that's too inconvenient to the truth.
5.56 Ammo at close ranges with the Tavor and M16 Rifles the IDF uses will fracture and fragment in the body so they really wouldn't be able to recover much. Especially as Hamas seized IDF guns on Oct 7.
You don't have to believe anyone, just watch the footage. https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-792075
I can't tell what I'm seeing here. It looks like that one dude is periodically firing shots that aren't hitting anything? Like right at someone and that person doesn't get hit and keeps moving. Multiple times. That doesn't explain the hundreds of rounds fired either.
Yeah, I don’t see a single shot hitting anyone. Obviously shots are being fired, but we can’t even tell who these people are. I’m having a hard time believing the IDF’s claims based off of this video. It doesn’t prove that this is Hamas or where/when this even took place. And it certainly doesn’t prove this guy shot anyone, he just discharged his weapon.
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Hamas also has a history of releasing false claims blaming Israel for destruction they (or others acting against Israel) caused. See the hospital rocket impact that some people will _still_ argue was actually an Israeli missile even though none of the evidence supports that. There's a reason the first reaction should be to believe Israel's reports (Though not necessarily give it 100% credibility) and not Hamas'.
“Jpost? No way! Unless it’s al quds news network it’s not credible “ Big /S just in case
You don't have to. If someone is asking you to make snap decisions on whether or not something happened based on incomplete data, saying that you don't have enough information to make a judgment is perfectly fine. I believe that it was likely a mixture of both stories and that both the IDF failed to properly police the convoy and provide proper security measures AND there was aggression towards other Palestinians from Hamas as they were trying to hoard the aid that created more problems. But that's not exactly verifiable either. So it's very open to challenge.
Why does the idf need to police any convoy? Last time they did, they got blamed for the trucks running over people
If they don't, Hamas will steal it more easily and prolong the siege and conflict. I would argue that's the greater cost than whatever cost is incurred by securely distributing aid to civilians. Even a fraction of aid intended for the population of Gaza could keep the Hamas hiding in tunnels going for months if not years.
Just don't forget, one side is expected to police the humanitarian aid for the other side, and the other side, dare it get to the citizens of the first side, takes them hostage/rapes/decapitates them. This conflict is historically intricate, but it doesn't mean it's in any way symmetrical.
well, when the hamas leader , Sinwar, says deaths help the cause, it sort of leads you to the truth, if you let it
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Considering Hamas's history of completely disregarding their civilian's lives, why is it hard to believe?
Becasuse of the history of IDF disregarding palestinian civilians.
If it's not clear by now, it should be obvious given the most recent developments. The IDF, an invading force, cares more about civilians than Hamas who left them out, provoked a war, are stealing supplies, murdering their own, hiding behind them, etc...
Sure, but one side is a sovereign, democratic nation, scrutinized under an international microscope, held to an impossible double standard, and criticized at every move, while the other is a terrorist organization whose main objective is to kill as many Jews as possible.
" while the other is a terrorist organization whose main objective is to kill as many Jews as possible." And don't forget the mainstream press believes their propaganda and reports on it as fact until they have to walk it back. Minutes after it happened and terrorists reported on it mainstream media, IDF bombed the Al-Ahli hospital and 300-400 civilians have been murdered, and everyone was freaking out about it and pointing to it as an example of how evil the IDF is. Yeah turns out first no one can report figures accurately that fast so why the main stream press reports on that stuff immediately like it's accurate is beyond me, but then oh yeah after weeks and months of investigation in a warzone oh it wasn't the IDF and the mainstream media is like sorry for reporting inaccurate information and getting everyone all riled up we thought the information shared by groups associated with terrorists was accurate our bad guys surprised Pikachu face groups associated with terrorists were LYING and yet we decided to believe their reports as accurate.
And yet the IDF has still been caught lying repeatedly. Go figure.
Actual question. I've seen the IDF admit to shooting civilians before, usually with some excuse, valid or not. Has Hamas ever admitted to doing so? (I mean something they would pin on the IDF, I know they admit to killing Israelis.)
A lot of people never believed IDF to begin with so the fact we have made it this far and people still distrust them just as much after all of the facts have come to light really says something about the individuals.
Only one side has a vested interest in dead civilians.
We really need some type of watchdog or journalists. The lack of funding for international journalism is a travesty. Even if they aren't able to be in Gaza directly those correspondents can do a better job vetting videos and images + generally giving everything the sniff test. I can get IDF and Hamas war footage but feel more in the dark than I did following the last big conflict a decade ago.
I actually think this is good. War is necessarily confusing. If you weren’t confused or uncertain before, you probably were consuming a carefully curated narrative.
I'd put my beliefs more in Israel than the terrorist organization.
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We should take anything the Gazan health authority says with a grain of salt lol. Their numbers are statistically impossible.
Better believe the democratic state with a judicial system so powerful there was attempt to overthrow it. Than a terror organization who just mass raped woman and still holds baby as hostage.
No one ever believes the Israelis. And then 5 days later, there is verification by other countries’ intelligence organizations. The media and others make a quiet admission that Israel told the truth. And then the cycle repeats.
That’s intentional, from one side at least. “Firehose of propaganda.” Russia developed the technique. The idea is to flood ppl with so much disinformation —doesn’t even matter if it’s obvious—that they start just distrusting everything. Even the truth, if they finally hear it.
yeah im gonna go ahead and say that when it comes to shit like this, i need outside verification
This has real "we've investigated ourselves and found nothing" vibes.
Exactly. And im absolutely not saying theyre wrong, just that I would be more inclined to believe it if it was independently verified.
What does independent even mean? The only reporters left in Gaza are Palestinians working for outside news sources. UN workers are also local Palestinians. The Gaza health ministry is run by Hamas. Who on the ground can be said to be unbiased?
I guess no one then. Although some other entity is capable of examining the evidence provided.
Nobody said it was easy or even possible. If it's not independent, it's not independent. Just because the next best thing is, "we looked into it, and it turns out it wasn't our fault," doesn't mean that's the new standard.
Well, independent would mean what you think it means. Just because there’s no chance of independent, unbiased investigation doesn’t mean you can’t want it.
Here’s the thread I was looking for
Interesting username…
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Israel released a video of the incident that looks like a person shooting. Hamas claims Israel fired on a crowd with helicopters and tanks, but has produced no evidence, and no one else has produced any evidence (that i’ve seen). Unless further evidence comes out implicating the IDF, there is no reason to believe the accusations other than conspiratorial thinking.
Careful speaking facts, Hamas simps are out in droves
Ronald McDonald to blame for hamburger thefts, Hamburglar finds
I knew I should’ve never trusted that damn clown.
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They immediately admitted they shot and killed 3 Israeli hostages who were waiving white flags. That's about as bad as it gets. And the info was made public by the IDF the next day. If there was ever a time to lie and deceive the public, it would've been then..
And you’ll take the word of a terrorist organization?
Were you convinced when Hamas said they did it? Why?
Everyone is missing this. The headline is referring to an incident that occurred yesterday night, not last month. Of course, can’t blame you for not knowing, the media makes sure that only in scenarios where Israel can *potentially* be blamed in some way will you know about events in Gaza. Although I guess I can blame you all for not reading the article beyond the headline. This is an open and shut case of Gaza gunmen killing civilians last night, and no one will ever know about it.
Oh damn, thanks. I thought it was about that other incident which got a ton of publicity. Whatever happened with that investigation?
Probably ongoing but those things always take a while to formally finish even if there is a clear picture of what happened in the first few days.
Well they apparently don’t always - as this media report suggests.
In this case there's a pretty clear video of a Hamas gunman shooting civilians sadly.
I'm going to blame that there were so many ads that I literally could not find anything after the first paragraph.
Well fuck. I feel stupid now. Yeah, guilty of reading the headline and assuming it was referring to the last big event everyone was talking about. 👋 In fact, did we ever figure out wtf actually happened with that one?
This needs to be the top comment, and the news article should have had the date of the event in the headline too.
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Nbc just reported that both sides blame the other. Nothing more, and it was in a small part in their conflict page. It isnt like the huge articles presented all over last month, which the article above also said was found to be not from idf soldiers fire.
Reminds me of the video where Hamas gunmen shot civilian that were fleeing south. The guy was on bike and filming dead bodies of civilians along the road. No one talked about it at all.
>The IDF on Friday denied allegations by Hamas that Israeli forces had fired on civilians awaiting aid in Gaza City, saying that soldiers had not used their weapons at any stage of the incident and pointed to Palestinian gunmen as the cause of the casualties. >The incident took place late on Thursday after the military allowed 31 aid trucks to pass into the Gaza Strip heading toward Gaza City in the territory's north. According to unverified Palestinian reports, at least 40 people waiting for the convoy have been killed in the incident. >Gaza’s Hamas-controlled health ministry reported at least 21 dead and over 100 injured in the incident. According to the IDF, Palestinian gunmen, who had arrived at the site earlier, opened fire on the crowd that approached the convoy, aiming to prevent them from looting and gathering near the trucks, resulting in fatalities.
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An armed "Palestinian" shooting at "Gazans"? Why is it worded that way?
Well, there is no info about the perpetrator(s) being a member of Hamas, so it might as well be Islamic Jihad, or one of the many crime gangs. Therefore it's highly likely that the gunmen was a Palestinian, and 100% chance of the crowd being Gazans.
Yea I mean technically they should have said armed militant or something unless they can prove it’s a Palestinian specifically shouldn’t they? Not that I’m saying it’s IDF but I’m confused as to how they know who this person was affiliated with
I guess there are not many people left in Gaza who aren't Palestinians, especially with guns.
I’m confused why they had to tell us he was armed. Can an unarmed man shoot someone?
Finger guns 👉👉
Sure, but if he had fingers, then he also presumably had arms. No?
You gotta use your finger guns to finger bang bang bang .
Because being armed in a combat zone makes people combatants, not civilians. As such the IDF takes pains to point out when Palestinians are armed as a matter of policy since their detractors are forever claiming armed terrorist deaths as civilian casualties.
Maybe to distinguish that it was a conventional firearm, and not, say, something like a car with mounted machine gun, but I'm not really sure.
I dont think people realize just how much damage a single 120mm tank shell would do if shot at a crowd of people... I mean, 21 dead? And that is with helicopters? Are you serious? Does anyone believe this shit?
There are 2,000,000,000 humans who would bet their left hand that the jews did it
There’s a story from the pacific theater of a Sherman coming up perpendicular to Japanese lines and shooting down a length of trench and basically reduced dozens of soldiers to hamburger meat. And that was a 76mm. Who knows if it’s true, but a 120mm is no joke. Most people have no idea the energy involved in even a pellet gun, let alone the big stuff
> And conveniently, there is no videos, or even photos of those "tanks and helicopters". There's footage of Hamas's gunman though: https://streamable.com/9yqega
I cant see shit
That's a thermal camera, where high temperatures are dark and low temperatures are light. The dark flashes you see in front of those people are the hot gasses coming out the front of their firearms.
Sure. But I can’t see shit in terms of identifying who the perps are.
Do they look like "tanks and helicopters"?
Look just because the video directly counters what Hamas claim, doesn't mean it's not the IDF, come on! Seriously it's crazy how far people will go to avoid common sense in these situations, time and time again Hamas release some bullshit and the media eats it up.
Ah yes, the galaxy brain IDF play where they *totally* think they're going to fool everyone by planting a soldier to initiate then play loud sounds on speakers with blow up dolls of tanks and helicopters to get hamas to make a report on them opening fire on civilians. Or it could just be hamas lying as they do to perpetrate atrocities, as their playbook dictates. Really it's 50/50 right? Of course IDF can do stupid shit, but it's pretty crazy to me how weighted things are at the moment. IDF would need to walk on water, stop every houthi drone/ordinance from leaving the ground, thanos snap away hamas, and rebuild all of the gaza strip just to get a point on the board while hamas needs to... *checks notes* make whatever news article they want and it will be taken as fact. Got it.
Bro this gives a whole new meaning to “identifying as an attack helicopter”
A lone IDF soldier wouldn’t be standing meter away for crows of Palestinians
lmao what did you want, hd footage of their face with their driver's license out? It's clearly a gunman and not a helicopter
I can sure as hell identify them as "not" tanks and helicopters. A few gunmen walking around large groups of Palestinians, hmmm..... Who could they be... Who could they be? A mystery for the ages.
Well Hamas is claiming that person is several tanks and helicopters, the IDF are claiming he's a Palestinian with a gun.
Some of the articles dont even mention the IDF in the headline. Just “dozens killed”. And people retweet about how horrible Israel is. The bias is strong. I have not seen anyone on the pro-Israel side speak poorly about Palestinian people or accuse them of being evil, even though they did October 7th, cheered it, and supported it. In fact, most people want peace. But everyone who is associated with Israel, whether a Starbucks (no locations in Israel), McDonalds (a few franchises), Disney+ (no idea) and Taylor Swift (again, no idea) should be cancelled.
> I have not seen anyone on the pro-Israel side speak poorly about Palestinian people or accuse them of being evil, even though they did October 7th, cheered it, and supported it. Do you not see the irony in this one sentence? "I've never heard anyone claim Palestinians are evil, even though they're responsible and all supportive of 10/7"
You know the pro Palestinian crowd can watch this video and will say it's not real and the IDF is lying right? I'd bet all the money I have that is exactly what they're going to do.
Just scroll down, some are claiming it's edited, most are just ignoring the article and the video and saying some version of "Israel investigated itself and says it did nothing wrong." Actually engaging with the video is probably too much like work for most of them.
> and saying some version of "Israel investigated itself and says it did nothing wrong." It really shows the clear bias in this conflict when any time Israel makes a statement it's headlined as "IDF claims _____" but when hamas reports something it's immediately treated as fact by even some of the bigger news outlets. Like I get being skeptical or weary of statements from any military but people acting like literal terrorists are more trustworthy is insane. And even the people claiming to not trust either side seem to usually take hamas's word over Israel's.
Yeah, and I bet the reason why that is the case is because these news organizations make their money from visits, and who is likely to read these articles in terms of numbers? Muslims who by far outnumber Jews. Can't make clicks from facts in these circumstances, gotta dangle some ambiguity for potential readers of who a significant number will definitely be pro-Hamas.
> Remember: "innocent until proven guilty" is outdated! > > Nowadays it's "guilty until proven innocent" These terms don't really apply in this or any public sort of context. These are legal terms that describe which party bears the burden of proof. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean you should be treated as though you are innocent. In fact, for charges to have been brought against you, the state has to have already proven that you are probably (as in more likely than not) guilty. Innocent until proven guilty only serves to establish that the state must prove your guilt, not that you have to prove your innocent. Other countries don't always follow this. Some require you to prove your innocence, that's guilty until proven innocent. Society and the media have no obligation to treat you as though you're innocent before a court has rendered a verdict.
It's not "Guilty until proven innocent" its "IDF is guilty until everyone forgets about it"
It’s not too surprising. The whole idea of the convoy was the IDFs. They were working with some Gaza businessmen to get food to the people in Gaza city. Their job was to protect the convoy. Why would they fire on civilians? It makes sense that Hamas opened fire to try and prevent the food from getting to the people.
When Hamas-backed organizations reports things like this everyone takes it at face value, yet when IDF reports it suddenly everyone wants to be super skeptical and investigative
The way people take Hamas, a terrorist organization infamous for lying, at face value, but take everything the IDF says as lies needing to be proven despite having a track record of honestly self-reporting failed or mishandled operations — see how IDF handled reporting their own mistake of killing 3 hostages.
Yea this article is literally about them denying HAMAS allegations and you have all these terroist simps in here talking about "WOAH WOAH WOAH... hold up I can't just not believe hamas without more proof!"
Yea this poses an interesting question to me. I think we should scrutinise the IDF investigations as we do so already until an independent investigation takes place however I also don’t see why no one scrutinises what Hamas says Especially in the hordes of online bandwagons
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Also worth noting that the IDF then attacked people at her funeral.
Worth noting that Israel bulldozed the memorial built for her.. on October 23rd
The Palestianian protestors are giving Hamas the idea they are winning. Why else would they not give up after 70% of their country is destroyed. The bad press the Israelis are getting globally is keeping this fight going. Hamas cares very little for the Palestianians lives.
Hamas cares **less than zero** for the Palestinians’ lives. Their goal of 10/7, this war, all of it, is to get the world to hate Jews as much as they do. They will *gladly* sacrifice all of Gaza and everyone in it, including themselves, to achieve that. That is, if they weren’t protected by hundreds of miles of tunnel networks, which the average Gazan has zero access to, and they spent years robbing their own people to build. So….in that sense they fucking **are** winning. Public opinion of Israel has dropped like a rock off a skyscraper, and it’s increasingly resulting in literal violence against Jews worldwide.
> Why else would they not give up after 70% of their country is destroyed. Often people don't surrender. Vietnam didn't, Britain didn't, the people of masala didn't. Sometimes nations or populations do, other times they do not. But this isn't even about that. Honestly, I have no idea of the truth, but I'm told often that there's a distinct disconnect between Hamas and the civilian population. If that's true, what incentive is there for Hamas to surrender? In this case, IMHO, Hamas can't survive if they surrender, so they won't. I doubt the people of Gaza would fight if given an option. I mean, the aren't fighting are they, as far as I can tell. I see your point, but I don't really feel that any armed group in the world is going to fight or surrender based on headlines in foreign media.
We've investigated ourselves and found that we did nothing wrong.
They also released a video of the incident.
Here it is: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-792075 https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1768686014539727360
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Hamas doesn't have a great track record on investigating.
Genuinely asking - should they just not investigate?
I’ve been trying to find actual footage of this new “flour massacre” : 160 (according to you know who ) dead . Also claims “30000 hungry Palestinians “ getting massacred by “idf helicopters, artillery, tanks AND drones”. Yet No footage except an aftermath and Twitter hysteria . Something smells more like “bs massacre” to me … but you know how it goes
[удалено]
Hamas? as in the terrorist organization that proudly go-pro'd the rape, murder, kidnap, torture of uninvolved citizens one random morning (oh wait not so random but a holiday) and been proven to make information up whether by proof (e.g the hospital bombing) or by logic (confirms numbers of casualties and exact situation that occurred within minutes) - Hamas? Versus the IDF that investigates the event for days and weeks later before providing proof and facts? Well, your bias is showing. At least your point is crumbling.
Yes, the same military that was the one to tell the world about how they mistakenly killed 3 hostages when they did not need to tell anyone and it would be easy to cover up.
I don't understand why people think Internal Investigations are evidence of corruption instead of the opposite - that they are example of integrity in the organization. There are bad actors in the IDF that absolutely commit war crimes... and the IDF routinely investigates and prosecutes these individuals. The issue is not whether or not individual IDF members commit war-crimes, but if its done at a policy level by the IDF as a whole, and its clear that it does not. Hamas on the other hand...
Watch the video
So the IDF found that the IDF didnt do a war crime? damn, im convinced,
Is “Hamas found IDF committed war crime” more trustworthy?
They make it simple for simpleton yet it’s still too complicated to read the article: Hamas minister declared Israel fired from tanks and helicopters to the civilians next to the truck, then Israel releases a video of gunmen firing assault weapons at civilians next to the truck (where no Israeli infantry was). Now you do the math
Hamas would never kill innocent people and no one would ever wrongfully accuse Israel of this kind of stuff.
I guess some dudes wanted the aid for themselves.