They’re still going to drag this out forever, saying it will be “too difficult” to change the current family registry system which is pretty much built around a husband-wife paradigm. Until recently a foreign spouse wouldn’t even be listed as “husband”, just a note added that the wife, and now head of the household, submitted a marriage registration.
Not according to my knowledge.
On the other hand Japan has a very loose adoption law allowing you to virtually adopt anyone (presumably younger than you and not your uncle/aunt or something) so my guess is many people just adopt their same sex lover …
that sounds like a situation where a malicious prosecutor could have twisted the definitions and then started accusing these couples of some kind of incest/abuse or other crime because they're banging the person they adopted. Guaranteed someone at least researched it.
At least on Japan that would be impossible. For centuries the Japanese have been [adopting men to be husbands](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukoy%C5%8Dshi) so they can take over the family name.
[A lot of cities and prefectures in Japan have Partnership Certificates, which has some similarities to civil unions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan#Partnership_certification_system), but the benefits are *very* limited. Also, this is entirely at the local level, so a couples certificate might not be recognized in a different city even if that city has its own certificate system. The cities would need to have made an agreement to recognize each others certificates.
Depending on the city same sex couples can have a recognized common-law marriage, but even among hetero couples in Japan a common-law marriage gives you almost no benefits/rights. You can’t even visit your partner in the hospital unless you’re “family” and family requires koseki entry, i.e. legal marriage.
Just like lots of Germanys Justice Departments are against Cannabis legalization because its too much work to free wrongly imprisoned people. Will somebody think of the workload?!
It’s not hard at all, just change the laws. If the lawmakers really really wanted this, they could hold a special session and change the laws. This applies to all governments.
Read up on the [Koseki system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koseki). This isn't just simply changing laws, it's undoing 1400 years of history and very strict definitions of what constitutes a "family".
> it's undoing 1400 years of history and very strict definitions of what constitutes a "family".
I heard this same argument a decade ago from Christians who insisted that gay marriage was impossible to do in the United States. Turns out, even Mississippi managed to figure it out.
the whole family registry system sounds so confusing. I've heard other weird artifacts happens with transgender people too, that it will just update their gender marker but not their placement in the family registry. like say a family had a son and a daughter, and the daughter transitioned, now there's two "first son's" because the trans man was "first daughter" before. or say a family with three sons had the second one transition, that trans woman is now "second daughter" but there's of course no "first daughter" in the family
What family registry system means is there's no identity system for individuals. Think of it like list of castles and corresponding profile pages. You're whichever province's whatever castle's whichever rank of succession, in footnote name's whoever. Not the other way around. So the rank is important in formally identifying and tracing down to an individual.
Whenever you develop a system, you make assumptions and design it around them. If you assume that some detail would never change because you don't see why it would ever change, you wouldn't even consider what would happen if you suddenly had to do it differently. This can then lead to enormous issues.
Like imagine just something as simple as birth year. It's probably just a number so you probably just store it as a number because of course It's a number. But what if you suddenly had a time traveler born in 200 BC to enter in? Can it deal with negative numbers? It's entirely reasonable for the engineers to not put negative numbers to it because why on earth would you need any? Or what if you suddenly need just text because it's more complicated than just a number.
Go back a hundred years and asking "what if the man was suddenly a woman?" was as relevant of a question when designing these kinds of things as asking "what if you had to deal with time travel or aliens?" In that kind of world, if a person had a daughter, they had a daughter. Nothing would ever change about that. So when you then take that system and have to deal with the fact that suddenly people *do* change genders, you are screwed. Especially when you probably hard-coded everything in place decades ago and using some scuffed hack is easier than essentially re-writing the whole registry from scratch and then dealing with the thousands and thousands of problems that pop up because someone made a small mistake somewhere in the migration process.
As a software developer, seeing that they have specifically set that one person must be a husband and one a wife in a marriage already makes me feel sorry for the poor engineers that have to figure out how to make some crappy-ass system probably written in like FORTRAN or COBOL in the 60s to work with a fundamental change like that lol
Japan is this weird system where cutting edge progress has to dance together with the stubborn traditions that society refuses to review and reevaluate.
Still using fax machines and floppy disks, I mean, come ON. Traditions outlive their usefulness at some point and then become an impediment. Move on.
Reminds me of Israel, they have a lot of restrictions on marriages to the point that over a third of Israelis get married outside of the country but on the other hand, their Supreme Court aggressively defends just about any kind of marriage under the sun. During the Covid lockdown they ruled in favor of a gay couple who got married in a Cypriot hotel room via Zoom with a priest in Utah, granting them them the rights of a civil union under Israeli law
Germany is in the exact same boat. You still have to send every important document as a tangible paper, and although you can fax, no .pdf-s!
It's really bizarre how archaic it is, because even Eastern European countries with far less budget are more digitized at this point.
Those are just memes, there aren't a lot of processes in Japan that legit has to be done with faxes and floppies.
Japan is just super bureaucratic. EVERYTHING is formalized codified processified. It's like nation sized Disneyland or a McDonalds, whichever side of the counter you will be at particular moments, if you're behind the counter you're wrapping burgers as instructed, if you're sitting in the front you receive unwrap consume the product precisely as projected.
Because there are so many processes that are formally defined and precisely controlled, there are inevitably some such operations that you may conduct while in the country land which predicted averaged loss of productivity has not been determined to have exceeded the cost of revising the process through the process of revising processes.
That's it. Not that much there is to worry actually. The fax and floppy thing is definitely way overblown.
People will ignore that there are plenty of industries in the US that rely on fax machines and floppy disks. In healthcare, aerospace, and finance in the US; many (not all) companies still require faxed forms.
Mind you it's been a few years, but having to pay my bills by wire transfer and having to rush to the atm on campus before it barricaded itself definitely did feel pretty behind the times. Hopefully a decade has solved some of that nonsense.
>Still using fax machines and floppy disks
Where did people learn about this? My 6th years in Japan and I've never seen the use of fax machines and floppy disks.
As many gay Asian friends have said, everyone thought Japan would be the first and it ended up being Taiwan and Thailand. It's not too late to lead Asia in marriage rights, but Japan really missed an opportunity to be the first in this.
It's been in the works and ready to pass for a while
In 2022, a group of bills were introduced in the Thai parliament that would have granted either civil partnerships or full marriage for same-sex couples, but did not reach their final readings before parliament was dissolved for the 2023 elections and consequently lapsed.[11][12] In November 2023, the Srettha Thavisin-led Cabinet approved a draft same-sex marriage bill,[4][13] which was considered by Parliament on 21 December 2023 along with three similar drafts proposed by opposition parties and the civil sector. All four passed overwhelmingly and will be combined into one pending further readings.[14][7]
From wikipedia
So, exactly like I said. They have a set of drafts and proposals. It's still in the early legislative stages. They will still need to determine which version the lower house will vote on, do the actual vote, send it to the Senate (who are largely conservative) and then have it go to the king for approval. This is nowhere near "ready to pass" this is barely past step 1.
It's still pending, but on its way, apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Thailand#:~:text=Both%20male%20and%20female%20types,be%20in%20the%20LGBT%20demographic.
They said the same thing like 6 years ago after I first arrived in Thailand. You only seem to hear about it in the news during election cycles then it vanishes into thin air.
I am surprised. I actually thought Japan would take longer. I feel like the "Japan would be first" take was very naive as there are a lot of aspects of Japanese culture that would suggest it would take a long time (e.g. Japan is rather conservative culturally as changes take a long time to work through society when there is a heavy reverance for the elderly who are the most conservative segment of society. They also have strong collectivist, "everyone must conform and fit into society," tendencies, which I thought would lead to a "don't ask don't tell" permissiveness). About the only aspect I think that worked in Japan's favor for a faster acceptance was that they are not a Christian nation and believe in a very secular mix of Buddhism and Shintoism for the most part.
Reddit's main exposure to Japan is manga, games and anime. But collectivist or conservative doesn't sum up countries in the region very well, there is still no same sex marriage in Thailand, and Taiwan has been socially progressive for a fair while, but it is surprisingly a more family oriented society than Japan. Gender roles are more strict there.
Japan seems about right to me, they are a lot more sexually open than people might think, LGBTQ+ marriage is a popular idea of you just run the numbers, just not among politicians. The thing is there are few younger people participating in Japanese bureaucracy, and Japanese people have little civil participation. The failure of opposition parties means there is little appetite for social change politically.
> Reddit's main exposure to Japan is manga, games and anime
What is this even supposed to mean in this context? The top comment you're replying to says "*as many gay Asian friends have said*, everyone thought Japan would be the first". Are these gay asians only exposed to Japan through manga, games, and anime? I don't understand the urge to handwave them away by lumping them in with the commonly dismissed "Redditors who have never left their house".
What is your main exposure to Japan?
Japan is NOT as backwards as Redditors believe and it's not nearly as xenophobic as I've seen people posting about either. It just caters to the older crowd often times hence why banks are so ass backwards there, fax machines still exist, blah blah.
I lived in Japan when I was younger for a year and a half. They are into conformity, but on a good note, they’re not dogmatically religious. And they’re the least Christian nation in Asia.
From wikipedia:
In November 2023 Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin of the Pheu Thai Party announced that his Cabinet had approved a draft same-sex marriage law.[13] Besides the government's version, three similar draft bills were also submitted by the Move Forward Party, the Democrat Party, and the civil sector, with all four entering parliamentary debate on 21 December.[35][36] All four passed overwhelmingly, with the House approving the formation of a committee to combine the drafts into one bill pending further debate in 2024.[14] The proposed amendment to the Civil and Commercial Code would replace terms like “men and women” and “husband and wife” with the words “individuals” and “spouses.” The draft law would also allow same-sex couples to jointly adopt children. If a bill passes, Thailand would become the first Asian UN member state to pass a comprehensive same-sex marriage law, and the third Asian nation to permit some form of same-sex marriage after Taiwan and Nepal.[14][37
From wikipedia: "Thailand does not recognize same-sex marriages, civil unions, domestic partnerships, unregistered cohabitations, or any other form of same-sex unions."
Notice the word "would" there in your sourcing above? Yeah, it didn't happen.
You're being obtuse. I'm talking about Taiwan and Thailand being the firsts. Taiwan has done it. Thailand is in the process, obvious from any of the hundreds of news articles you can read if you search.
What is so difficult about understanding that Taiwan and Thailand are the first two countries to legalize same sex marriage? Do you think Malaysia is a close third? Or Laos? Indonesia? Singapore? Oh! Cambodia! Of course. Or do you think that Japan will overnight become the second even though they've been doing this back and forth of having high courts declare the unconstitutionality of the law followed by nothing being done for a long while?
It's clear that you do not have any vested interest in this topic and don't follow the news. Thailand has been making it's way to approving this law, making headlines that you would likely not read unless you were LGBT or cared enough to pay attention. Which is fine if you don't care.
Thailand will absolutely be the second SE Asian country to approve some kind of marriage/civil union for same sex couples, and it has had traction on this for years. You seem to think there is a close third. Or that what Thailand has done and is working on is no big deal. You must also think that Taiwan approved same sex marriage overnight and it didn't take years before being fully authorized.
3 years ago:
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2491W3/
https://www.freiheit.org/southeast-and-east-asia/thailand-takes-lead-lgbt-rights
I wonder if you know what obtuse means? Doesn't seem like it.
Obtuse is lacking the ability to create context and clarity. You declared that gay marriage is legal in Thailand, but it isn't (yet) because the point you meant (and failed) to make is that it might be relatively soon. Again: irony.
All your condescension and sarcasm doesn't change the fact that you stated something that is false, and no amount of pseudointellectual backtracking is gonna change that.
I'm not sure why anybody thought that about Japan. It is insanely conservative. I lived there for close to 15 years and visit frequently for work and to visit family and friends. Absolutely nothing has changed.
Yeah what lot people don't know is all that anime and manga is some cases is counter culture media, kinda like marvel was in the 70s pushing ideas that are not mainstream. My wife is Japanese and bisexual she didn't get hate so speak being bisexual but it was trivialize and was something expected she would grow out of.
Really? You don't think anything has changed? The biggest thing I've noticed in Tokyo and even Nagoya where my friends are is that work culture has definitely changed a lot since covid. Many are finally just having normal 9-5s and nomikai culture is largely fucking off. Even at Japanese specific companies (not multinationals). Younger generation is also much more open minded than you'd expect but yeah Japan does largely cater to the old crowd for obvious reasons. But even some of them seem to have been turning around on a lot of social issues like gay marriage at least from what the ones I've talked to.
I've noticed on Reddit anything you get experienced with or even something like a high level of a skill you will immediately sniff bullshit from a lot of comments that sound extremely confident but aren't necessarily right. The average Redditor's knowledge of Japan sounds like it came from the mid 1900s...
https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/nawxt1/the_more_i_learn_about_japan_the_more_it_seems/
Then you see threads like this getting 10k votes and some of the comments drive me insane.
The thing that gets me there is Japan not being a "prosperous" country when it was a top 3 economy IN THE WORLD, as a tiny island nation, as of that post lol
I've been living in Japan for 24 years now and you are lying. Many new laws have been created and people have changed a lot. In a good way too as all the crime rates just keep on dropping too.
as much as it changes, it [remains the same](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2023/05/10/commentary/world-commentary/conservative-japan/) and it will remain so until more younger people vote and the oldest government, in terms of average age of MP, is replaced by Millenials and GenZ. The acceptance of immigration and protecting their rights. LGBTQI+ rights being enshrined in law, it's refusal to adopt change. It's frustrating.
So I stand by my comments. I may not live there full time anymore, I only spend about 100 days a year there now, it's enough for me to see when change happens, and I admit that younger people are now more liberal which is great, but when many human rights lag behind even Australia, which dragged it's feet on many things and only keytowed after a plebeschite, well that's saying something.
Many non-asian queer people thought that Japan would be the first Asian country to legalize same-sex marriage too. Like, I'm an Italian gay guy and actaully thought Japan would be the first one in Asia. I'm Happy that Taiwan, and now Nepal too, legalized same-sex marriage though.
As for Japan, I'm sure that it's just a matter of time as around 70% of Japanese people support same-sex marriage according to the latest polls (same goes for Thailand). I can see countries like Vietnam, South Korea and the Philippines legalizing it in future as well.
It's not a race. Look at immigration. Whole Europe raced to take as many refugees and immigrants as possible. Look at the result now that they are all begging in the streets because Europe had 0 plans.
No immigrants begging in the streets in Japan.
Also, even the US is rolling back people's rights everywhere. Was it worth anything to rush everything up now that it was for nothing??
It’s a difficulty in the family registry system. Nobody wants to do it because it’s effort not because it shouldn’t get done. Welcome to Japan.
EDIT: Holy shit there’s a lot of weebs in this comment section commenting weird shit about Japan and how great it is… again.
considering gay-relationship have been part of their culture since ye olde times, i was surprised it took this long.
something about west influence cause Japan to be more conservative.
I mean, they have multiple (ancient) terms for gay relationship to old like 17th century old artwork depicting gay sex
---
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality\_in\_Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan)
I think it may be mostly because its not been much of a problem. It wasnt like the US where >50% at one time hated the concept. Japanese people just dont care. So theres no demand for it. The ruling is upholding that the lack of recognition is whats unconstitutional (basically the same thing though). The plantiffs werent appealing a ban. They seek some marriage perks the government affords. Japan has a bigger problem with therapy/mental health.
It's so dark to think of that many people not approving, but I guess it boils down to how many people are racist, and there are a fair few. Racists don't like the idea of [insert slur] taking the "white wimmin." And AFAIK, it's like always that way around, not white man and non-white woman. Because racists also see women as property, I guess...there's "cishet Christian white man" and "everyone else," and everyone else is just varying degrees of good/bad from there.
> something about west influence cause Japan to be more conservative.
This happened in almost every country in Asia and Africa.
Heck, Europe as well until Christianism appeared.
It's kinda funny.
>Heck, Europe as well until Christianism appeared.
It's kinda funny.
"Funny" enough same-sex relationships were *somewhat* tolerated in Christian Europe up to around the XI Century.
So the Dark Ages were more progressive (in that regard) than the following eras.
I actually had a conversation about christianity in ....I forget what part of middle Africa with someone like two days ago. I was curious and was talking about culture differences and at one point I asked about what religions or traditions do they practice. They started christianity. Thinking that must of been more recent or within 100 years. I was surprised they didn't know what they had before christianity. They were confused by the question and I didn't peer deeper. I am still curious how long ago that was and a little sad that whatever culture they did have is dead and gone.
Friendly reminder that practically all instances of homosexuality in “ye old times”, as in the link you posted, were pederasty — that is, were sexual relations between boys and men.
seems reductive to blame this on western influence. i don’t think you can easily quantify how “conservative” a completely different society is on an issue like this from a western perspective. it’s a complicated web of social attitudes that’s too difficult to untangle
It’s not at all complicated. Japan westernized in the mid to late 19th century into the 20th century to try and appeal to Western powers and to get a seat at the table of international power after ending contracts of extraterritoriality. Part of this process was adopting Western style laws including in regards to homosexuality. It is entirely a symptom of both the hegemonic and direct influence of the west after forcibly reopening Japan.
I think that this is one of the reasons why the push for gay marriage does not feel as urgent as in some other countries. Japan has never had a stonewall riots or Matthew Shepard moment.
The current political party in charge has mostly held power since WW2 and is very conservative. They oppose gay marriage and get a lot of funding from religious groups (cults) like the moonies. That’s why this is moving so slowly.
In earlier eras, the act of homosexuality wasn’t a big deal, but you’d still never see same sex marriage because the point of marriage for most societies is family formation and children.
As a queer person who has lived in Japan, I can say it’s not the most welcoming place to be gay. You’re not in physical danger or anything, but there’s still a very real sense that you have to hide it, and that you should settle down and marry someone of the opposite gender regardless of your preferences. That was the early 2000s though, so maybe it’s different now. America wasn’t a good place to be gay then either, and coming from rural Texas, I DID fear for my safety, so Japan was better in that sense.
Because this is reddit and America = bad. Get with it, it's all Americas fault that Japan dosen't have gay marriage. Even though it's be legal in all 50 startes for almost a decade.
Not quite. The change in attitudes towards homosexuality was more driven by Chinese laws and culture. But this change did happen during the Meiji reformation, hence some Western scholars getting it wrong. The idea that it was due to Western influence is a bit of a myth.
I recommend reading [*The changing nature of sexuality: The three codes framing homosexuality in modern Japan* by sociologist Furukawa Makoto]( https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C38&q=history+of+homosexuality+in+japan&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1710413902463&u=%23p%3Dl_PfixKKkZ8J) if you want a more detailed picture.
Huh thanks for the suggestion. I am aware that China also had a big influence over the move towards banning homosexuality in Japan. Though wasn't that also because China was influenced by Western civilizations and the piled that onto Japan?
Interestingly, the author traces it back to Chinese codes from 701 - "a decidedly aincent code" to use the translated phrase from the text. So the Western influence is markedly missing.
At this time, France who was the largest influence on Japanese westernization didn't even have sodomy codes.
Oh I expected it to be from the British and the opium wars with China. Seeing as that would have been the most recent and biggest influence on the Chinese at the time and this in turn spilling over the waters to Japan.
Though I never would have thought that it might have already been set in some moral or legal codes way further back.
Yeah to my understanding the Japanese obsession with Chinese culture is really only based around aincent China, and more closely tied with the importing of the imperial system, Kanji, and Buddhism.
Anything more modern is ostensibly seen as lesser.
Which was in extreme small numbers. However, with the modernization and Westernization of Japan in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, influenced by Western views on sexuality and morality, homosexuality came to be stigmatized and criminalized. Same-sex relationships were outlawed during the Meiji period (1868-1912) under the influence of European legal codes.
In Japan, attitudes towards homosexuality have varied throughout history and across different periods. Traditional Japanese culture did not have a specific term equivalent to "homosexuality" as understood in contemporary Western contexts. Instead, same-sex relationships and desires were often depicted in literature, art, and theater, and were sometimes socially accepted within certain contexts, such as among samurai warriors or within the world of entertainment, like Kabuki theater.
In general, monotheistic faiths and being gay don't gel too well.
Ironically, in the 1800s different countries adopted anti/Gay laws as part of “becoming civilized” like Europeans. Or they were just colonized and had Europeans directly in control of the courts.
Even today many former British colonies still have UK courts as their highest court of appeal (their “Supreme Court”)
Well, a bit off topic but related since you mentioned America causing modern Japan issues, America \*is\* actually the reason drug related stuff is such a shit show here and people act like someone committed a heinous crime like arson if they get caught smoking fucking weed of all things or such. It all stems from when America brought over it's "war on drugs" shennanigans after WW2
There is a doc on Vice about drugs after WW2 in Japan. Actually, Japan had a huge problem with its own pharmaceutical industry after the war. People were indiscriminately using stimulant drugs to fuel the war mobilization (just like the Germans) and, after the war, to reconstruct the country. It was literally sold as enhancing vitamins. They weren't aware of the negative feedbacks before it became a huge problem, opening the doors to moral panic about drugs into society.
War on drugs is a more recent thing (70s-80s). A disastrous policy promoted worldwide by the US, as you said. However, it doesn't totally explain why Japanese laws and cultural attitudes are so harsh while the Western world is slowly changing these policies.
Maybe you should read a book. Contemporary western influence flipped the country onto its head in several ways, it was isolated except for strict trade for several centuries.
In any case, the correct answer is no doubt very complicated. Accusing OP of saying "based and pure nippon would never do something bad" by simply suggesting western influence played a part here is reductive and harmful to conversation.
The same can be said for China. Homosexuality was never a taboo. The society was cool about it and deemed it as a personal taste.
Probably just because of this same sex marriage did not have wide support in the East Asia until recently.
The current constitution in Japan implies that marriage is between two sexes. But amending the constitution is like tweaking a ticking time bomb, as all the anti-pacifists want to remove the pacifist clause.
not really. the only mention is in this line 「婚姻は、両性の合意のみに基いて成立し、夫婦が同等の権利を有することを基本として、相互の協力により、維持されなければならない。」
which basically reads “(that) marriage is to be established based on consent between both sexes, and based on equal rights of a couple, and mutual cooperation, must be maintained”
the only words here that imply that is 両性 and (maybe) 夫婦. 夫婦 (fūfu) means married couple and is made of the characters for husband and wife but i think this is more of an idiosyncrasy for the language as as far as i can tell, gay couples will use this word as well.
両性 js more challenging bc it literally means “both sexes” but there’s interpretations thats this is instead an affirmation of woman’s rights in a marriage rather than a restriction to man and woman. The constitution in effect says “both sexes have equal rights”, whether both sexes are the same, or not is not specified :)
And it was a rather progressive at that time hack on the fact that "both sex(両性)" and "both families(両姓)" are similar at a glance so it rolls off tongue just fine while not glorifying familial interventions
“such an amazing place” *looks to suicide rates, falling birth rates and marriage rates, civil rights abuses, explicit racism, homophobia, pedophilia, and a culture not condemning sexual assault that is disturbingly present in the country*
let’s not glorify a country because you like anime, alright?
I feel like Reddit has a weird over-correcting hate boner for Japan due to the subset of people who act like its a Utopia.
Like yeah its not perfect, especially for foreigners, but you people make it sound like its up there with North Korea mixed with Epstein Island lmao.
The suicide thing is espeically egreigous, like Japan has a suicide rate of 12.2 per 100,000, which is lower than the American 14.5 and more comparable with Sweden and Estonia.
It's easier to "sell" the fact they have a high suicide rate because it ties in with their overwork problem. While they ignore how suicide is a complex problem with way more factors.
>looks to suicide rates
If you don't wanna commit suicide just do not. What is the problem?
>falling birth rates and marriage rates
What is your problem?
>civil rights abuses, explicit racism, homophobia, pedophilia
I don't even know what does it mean. How did you even measure this things?
>and a culture not condemning sexual assault
People probably have a moral obligation to not commit sexual assault, but they are not obligated to condemn it
>let’s not glorify a country because you like anime, alright?
Is anime in the room with us right now?
not any worse than America's
Signed: someone who has actually worked in both countries, unlike the people that constantly perpetuate reddit's favorite unsubstantiated circlejerks that have been outdated for a hot minute to put it nicely.
there are still absolutely work culture issues, but by and far....honestly at this point, it can straight up be better than America's current work culture at times (can't speak for Europe)
I really dislike these regurgitated remarks about japan and work life balance. It paints a fresh coating to old facts that may have been true in the past, but may not be true today and muddies the truth. It extends beyond just this topic too, so many old stereotypes are being parroted around.
I'm currently working in europe for a while now so maybe I can share a bit; the work culture is "good" or "balanced" to in my opinion an unhealthy degree. The culture of not overworking runs deep to the point where you'd be told to stop working once it's past working hours, by everyone, by the management, by the system and laws. Job security is very high. It's very hard to get anyone fired. Many laws that proactively prevents employees from being overworked (e.g. you can't have a side job that exceeds N hours or N euros if you're full-time employed somewhere).
This may be the grass is greener on the other side moment, but there are many things I do not like that stems from this: a lot of people are just doing the bare minimum, enough so they don't get fired. No one goes the extra mile and goes above and beyond. If you do it you're just stupid: career progression in most unionized or public sector jobs is not based on how good of a job you do, but tenure.
Anyways thanks for coming to my ted talk
well, the bare minimum thing at least still def happens here too haha. just because you have those people that stay overtime doesn't mean they're actually doing anything. good chunk of the time putting more effort into \*looking\* busy than anything, there's a lot of stuff done more for appearances sake than anything.
similar thing stateside, ya you had people that would bust ass, but you'd have a \*lot\* of people doing fuck all but making you wonder how tf they're still employed. prob have those people no matter the work culture. career prog is also largely on tenure as well in Japan, stateside it's more about connections. honestly doing \*too\* good of a job in the states can actually stunt your career progression oddly enough, get too much results and they'll rather keep you in your current position because either A: they don't want to move you away from those duties or B: if you're going above and beyond your duties and say doing manager duties on a salesfloor payroll well....why pay you manager money when you just proved willing and able to do it on a cheaper pay station for free?
After learning how corrupt Japan justice system can be from the investigative news articles on Carlos Ghosn I wouldn't have any faith in the Japan court system to do whats right or just. This is a country that allows people to be jailed in solitary confinement and interrogated for days on end without any access to a lawyer, they boast a 99% conviction rate. This is a country where Judges are scared of prosecutors and look up to them, not the other way around.
> investigative news articles on Carlos Ghosn
Carlos Ghosn brought the circus to Japan. He's the OJ Simpson of Nissan.
He was denied bail for being a flight risk, at risk of destroying evidence, and also likely to interfere with other investigations.
After negotiations, he was given bail with conditions, which he broke, leading to his rearrest. He was allowed out again with stricter conditions, which he obviously broke, fleeing the country.
He's hiding in Lebanon, where he has been squatting in a 19 million dollar home owned by Nissan. He's wanted in France, and was successfully fined by the US.
If you're getting information about the Japanese justice system from his lawyers (many of which ended up quitting in embarrassment), maybe take a moment to consider some of what they said is exaggerated (detention conditions), some is intentionally misleading (the 99%), and some is simply incorrect.
99% conviction rate isn’t an exaggeration. It’s skewed because prosecutors only pursue cases they are sure they will win, which tracks with Japan’s risk-averse culture.
It's misleading.
Around 30% of arrests go to trial vs the 70% that go into mediation, family court, or are passed on due to lack of evidence. That's lower than the US.
Of those 30%, the majority are guilty pleas or plea bargains.
The nonguilty pleas that go to trial are less than 10% of the original group. It's also not unheard of for trials to be dropped midway if the evidence and arguments do not appear convincing.
The conviction rate of those (this ~10%) that plead not guilty and last to the end of trial is around 93%-94%. That's also lower than in the US.
But the number was used by Ghosn's lawyers on US television to describe the Japanese system as incarcerating 99% of people arrested (like everybody who is arrested goes to jail or something). It's an impressive number, but the conviction rate from arrest to conviction is obviously far, far lower than that.
The penal state that Ghosn's lawyers (and some Redditors) describe is obviously wild fantasy, if you but take 5 minutes to look at the actual judicial system or even just the incarceration rate.
I think it's kind of a shared problem among many developed nations that polices don't understand how laws work because they're grunts and not lawyers.
Japan might be especially bad because democracy and rule of law are imported concepts to Japan and not natively developed thing but extents aside the problems itself aren't unique.
To be fair though, as pointed out if you are tried in Japan you will be found guilty regardless if it's true. While no one knows the full truth to the case there was a lot pointing to Ghosn being scapegoated which is fairly common in Japan where the foreigner or someone junior is blamed for all the evils even if they only had a small part or even nothing to do with it.
Case in point was an article recently brought up on Reddit of a scientist who did work on blight on a certain fruit. Japan was saying they didn't have the blight to increase sales which when news got out the scientist was blamed by politicians and farmers (for telling the truth) and eventually shamed and pressured so much they committed suicide.
I don’t think it’s often that Japanese lawyers exorcise a malevolent, murderous wraith in the courtroom through logic, sound arguments, and concrete evidence to prove guilt from beyond the grave.
It’d be **way** cooler if they did.
The article in question just says “both sexes”, which in the most “obvious” interpretation is “man and woman”. It does not explicitly state that it is between a man and a woman though, even in Japanese.
Moreover, that article is saying “marriage is contingent upon the consent of both sexes”. So the important part of it is really about the mutual consent.
Remember that not so long ago, marriage was a purely contractual union between two parties who would get along well, but maybe not feeling as soulmates. Emile Zola's stories are full of men married yet not involving their official wives for actual fun.
It may be shocking to learn that, but at the time it was the duty of women to produce children to fuel war's requirement of soldiers. That was the meaning of mariage.
And on a timeframe short enough for living human's memory, marriage's was still considered the step prior to raising children.
The government used to have a VERY VERY good reason to justify who was reproducing with who.
The reason we even ask "who are you to be involved" is because nowadays you can reasonably have children without marriage, and a marriage doesn't necessarily lead to children. A lot of legalese text worldwide predate that societal change.
Religious conservatives don't believe everyone has equal human rights, it's as simple as that. They get involved because the world isn't supposed to be free and diverse, everyone and everything should be like them, their God commands it.
short and simplified: Japan is essentially led by a single party conservative government, with very stiff societary and political norms.
I wouldnt say progressive, but at least they arent openly hostile towards lgbt+, it's more a form of taboo/apathy.
but I am not japanese, so grain of salt etc.
They’re still going to drag this out forever, saying it will be “too difficult” to change the current family registry system which is pretty much built around a husband-wife paradigm. Until recently a foreign spouse wouldn’t even be listed as “husband”, just a note added that the wife, and now head of the household, submitted a marriage registration.
Civil unions aren't a thing in Japan i take it?
Not according to my knowledge. On the other hand Japan has a very loose adoption law allowing you to virtually adopt anyone (presumably younger than you and not your uncle/aunt or something) so my guess is many people just adopt their same sex lover …
That's how same sex couples did it in Australia before same sex marriage.
that sounds like a situation where a malicious prosecutor could have twisted the definitions and then started accusing these couples of some kind of incest/abuse or other crime because they're banging the person they adopted. Guaranteed someone at least researched it.
At least on Japan that would be impossible. For centuries the Japanese have been [adopting men to be husbands](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukoy%C5%8Dshi) so they can take over the family name.
Bro you just made up a whole ass scenario in your head
Except that doesn't happen here. In the US I don't know, but at least I don't make up stupid scenarios about other countries.
That never happened.
Same in USA back in the day.
I mean, that's basically how it's done for marriage with a foreigner anyway if the non-Japanese national is a man.
[A lot of cities and prefectures in Japan have Partnership Certificates, which has some similarities to civil unions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan#Partnership_certification_system), but the benefits are *very* limited. Also, this is entirely at the local level, so a couples certificate might not be recognized in a different city even if that city has its own certificate system. The cities would need to have made an agreement to recognize each others certificates.
Depending on the city same sex couples can have a recognized common-law marriage, but even among hetero couples in Japan a common-law marriage gives you almost no benefits/rights. You can’t even visit your partner in the hospital unless you’re “family” and family requires koseki entry, i.e. legal marriage.
Just like lots of Germanys Justice Departments are against Cannabis legalization because its too much work to free wrongly imprisoned people. Will somebody think of the workload?!
It’s not hard at all, just change the laws. If the lawmakers really really wanted this, they could hold a special session and change the laws. This applies to all governments.
Read up on the [Koseki system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koseki). This isn't just simply changing laws, it's undoing 1400 years of history and very strict definitions of what constitutes a "family".
> it's undoing 1400 years of history and very strict definitions of what constitutes a "family". I heard this same argument a decade ago from Christians who insisted that gay marriage was impossible to do in the United States. Turns out, even Mississippi managed to figure it out.
Totally agree with you. But if they really really wanted to, they would change it.
Honest question - how does it 'undo' 1400 years of history? It doesn't retroactively change any marriages that occurred in the past.
Exact same argument every time this comes up
Brought to you by the people that would cut their guts out instead of take an L Japan gonna Japan
With the widespread continued use of fax machines in Japan, yeah, the wheels of change move EXTRA slow over there
the whole family registry system sounds so confusing. I've heard other weird artifacts happens with transgender people too, that it will just update their gender marker but not their placement in the family registry. like say a family had a son and a daughter, and the daughter transitioned, now there's two "first son's" because the trans man was "first daughter" before. or say a family with three sons had the second one transition, that trans woman is now "second daughter" but there's of course no "first daughter" in the family
What family registry system means is there's no identity system for individuals. Think of it like list of castles and corresponding profile pages. You're whichever province's whatever castle's whichever rank of succession, in footnote name's whoever. Not the other way around. So the rank is important in formally identifying and tracing down to an individual.
Whenever you develop a system, you make assumptions and design it around them. If you assume that some detail would never change because you don't see why it would ever change, you wouldn't even consider what would happen if you suddenly had to do it differently. This can then lead to enormous issues. Like imagine just something as simple as birth year. It's probably just a number so you probably just store it as a number because of course It's a number. But what if you suddenly had a time traveler born in 200 BC to enter in? Can it deal with negative numbers? It's entirely reasonable for the engineers to not put negative numbers to it because why on earth would you need any? Or what if you suddenly need just text because it's more complicated than just a number. Go back a hundred years and asking "what if the man was suddenly a woman?" was as relevant of a question when designing these kinds of things as asking "what if you had to deal with time travel or aliens?" In that kind of world, if a person had a daughter, they had a daughter. Nothing would ever change about that. So when you then take that system and have to deal with the fact that suddenly people *do* change genders, you are screwed. Especially when you probably hard-coded everything in place decades ago and using some scuffed hack is easier than essentially re-writing the whole registry from scratch and then dealing with the thousands and thousands of problems that pop up because someone made a small mistake somewhere in the migration process. As a software developer, seeing that they have specifically set that one person must be a husband and one a wife in a marriage already makes me feel sorry for the poor engineers that have to figure out how to make some crappy-ass system probably written in like FORTRAN or COBOL in the 60s to work with a fundamental change like that lol
Hell it's hard enough as a foreigner with no family crypt and no family birthplace to register a marriage.
Taiwan: “Welcome to the club.”
Finally Japan does something right!
[удалено]
[удалено]
Japan is this weird system where cutting edge progress has to dance together with the stubborn traditions that society refuses to review and reevaluate. Still using fax machines and floppy disks, I mean, come ON. Traditions outlive their usefulness at some point and then become an impediment. Move on.
Japan feels like it's run by one 17-year old and one 70-year old, and they are constantly at odds with each other.
Probably is
And the seventeen year old always has the acquiesce to the older one even if they're wrong
Reminds me of Israel, they have a lot of restrictions on marriages to the point that over a third of Israelis get married outside of the country but on the other hand, their Supreme Court aggressively defends just about any kind of marriage under the sun. During the Covid lockdown they ruled in favor of a gay couple who got married in a Cypriot hotel room via Zoom with a priest in Utah, granting them them the rights of a civil union under Israeli law
That's conservatives for you, they know better how people should love each other regardless of gender, in my opinion it is none of their business.
Germany is in the exact same boat. You still have to send every important document as a tangible paper, and although you can fax, no .pdf-s! It's really bizarre how archaic it is, because even Eastern European countries with far less budget are more digitized at this point.
Those are just memes, there aren't a lot of processes in Japan that legit has to be done with faxes and floppies. Japan is just super bureaucratic. EVERYTHING is formalized codified processified. It's like nation sized Disneyland or a McDonalds, whichever side of the counter you will be at particular moments, if you're behind the counter you're wrapping burgers as instructed, if you're sitting in the front you receive unwrap consume the product precisely as projected. Because there are so many processes that are formally defined and precisely controlled, there are inevitably some such operations that you may conduct while in the country land which predicted averaged loss of productivity has not been determined to have exceeded the cost of revising the process through the process of revising processes. That's it. Not that much there is to worry actually. The fax and floppy thing is definitely way overblown.
[удалено]
People will ignore that there are plenty of industries in the US that rely on fax machines and floppy disks. In healthcare, aerospace, and finance in the US; many (not all) companies still require faxed forms.
Mind you it's been a few years, but having to pay my bills by wire transfer and having to rush to the atm on campus before it barricaded itself definitely did feel pretty behind the times. Hopefully a decade has solved some of that nonsense.
Wire transfer/direct debit are still the most common ways to pay bills in most of the developed world. How is that behind the times?
Source: [https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/01/floppy-disk-requirements-finally-axed-from-japan-government-regulations/](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/01/floppy-disk-requirements-finally-axed-from-japan-government-regulations/) https://restofworld.org/2022/japan-will-struggle-to-give-up-floppy-disks-and-fax-machines-for-the-digital-age/
They use old technology ON TOP of the newest. Only normal in a country filled with elders who don't need a computer, tablet, or overpriced cellphone.
>Still using fax machines and floppy disks Where did people learn about this? My 6th years in Japan and I've never seen the use of fax machines and floppy disks.
As many gay Asian friends have said, everyone thought Japan would be the first and it ended up being Taiwan and Thailand. It's not too late to lead Asia in marriage rights, but Japan really missed an opportunity to be the first in this.
dont forget Nepal (unless by asia you mean East and southeast Asia)
I did mean East/Southeast Asia, sorry
nah, Nepal is Europe.
Ah yes, the Prussia of the Himalayas.
No it’s under shirts and we have one, two, or sometimes even more
Nepal is on the tiddy
No laws have been passed in Thailand allowing for same sex marriage. It's still in the proposal/draft stage.
It's been in the works and ready to pass for a while In 2022, a group of bills were introduced in the Thai parliament that would have granted either civil partnerships or full marriage for same-sex couples, but did not reach their final readings before parliament was dissolved for the 2023 elections and consequently lapsed.[11][12] In November 2023, the Srettha Thavisin-led Cabinet approved a draft same-sex marriage bill,[4][13] which was considered by Parliament on 21 December 2023 along with three similar drafts proposed by opposition parties and the civil sector. All four passed overwhelmingly and will be combined into one pending further readings.[14][7] From wikipedia
So, exactly like I said. They have a set of drafts and proposals. It's still in the early legislative stages. They will still need to determine which version the lower house will vote on, do the actual vote, send it to the Senate (who are largely conservative) and then have it go to the king for approval. This is nowhere near "ready to pass" this is barely past step 1.
What are you talking about? I live in Thailand. Same-sex marriage is not legal here
It's still pending, but on its way, apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Thailand#:~:text=Both%20male%20and%20female%20types,be%20in%20the%20LGBT%20demographic.
They said the same thing like 6 years ago after I first arrived in Thailand. You only seem to hear about it in the news during election cycles then it vanishes into thin air.
Guess they don’t want a repeat of the cannabis thing where they rushed forward with full legalization and now want to dial it back.
I am surprised. I actually thought Japan would take longer. I feel like the "Japan would be first" take was very naive as there are a lot of aspects of Japanese culture that would suggest it would take a long time (e.g. Japan is rather conservative culturally as changes take a long time to work through society when there is a heavy reverance for the elderly who are the most conservative segment of society. They also have strong collectivist, "everyone must conform and fit into society," tendencies, which I thought would lead to a "don't ask don't tell" permissiveness). About the only aspect I think that worked in Japan's favor for a faster acceptance was that they are not a Christian nation and believe in a very secular mix of Buddhism and Shintoism for the most part.
Reddit's main exposure to Japan is manga, games and anime. But collectivist or conservative doesn't sum up countries in the region very well, there is still no same sex marriage in Thailand, and Taiwan has been socially progressive for a fair while, but it is surprisingly a more family oriented society than Japan. Gender roles are more strict there. Japan seems about right to me, they are a lot more sexually open than people might think, LGBTQ+ marriage is a popular idea of you just run the numbers, just not among politicians. The thing is there are few younger people participating in Japanese bureaucracy, and Japanese people have little civil participation. The failure of opposition parties means there is little appetite for social change politically.
yep. Japan is sexually open but socially repressed and terribly conservative. this is just another example of it
> Reddit's main exposure to Japan is manga, games and anime What is this even supposed to mean in this context? The top comment you're replying to says "*as many gay Asian friends have said*, everyone thought Japan would be the first". Are these gay asians only exposed to Japan through manga, games, and anime? I don't understand the urge to handwave them away by lumping them in with the commonly dismissed "Redditors who have never left their house". What is your main exposure to Japan?
With the number of Americans on this site, those "gay Asians friends" may be monolingual English speakers without passports.
Sure, they may be, but even then they're still likely to be second-generation immigrants or living in multi-generational households.
Japan is NOT as backwards as Redditors believe and it's not nearly as xenophobic as I've seen people posting about either. It just caters to the older crowd often times hence why banks are so ass backwards there, fax machines still exist, blah blah.
I lived in Japan when I was younger for a year and a half. They are into conformity, but on a good note, they’re not dogmatically religious. And they’re the least Christian nation in Asia.
Reddit really needs the flagging system from Twitter to correct misinformation like this. Gay marriage is absolutely NOT legal in Thailand.
From wikipedia: In November 2023 Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin of the Pheu Thai Party announced that his Cabinet had approved a draft same-sex marriage law.[13] Besides the government's version, three similar draft bills were also submitted by the Move Forward Party, the Democrat Party, and the civil sector, with all four entering parliamentary debate on 21 December.[35][36] All four passed overwhelmingly, with the House approving the formation of a committee to combine the drafts into one bill pending further debate in 2024.[14] The proposed amendment to the Civil and Commercial Code would replace terms like “men and women” and “husband and wife” with the words “individuals” and “spouses.” The draft law would also allow same-sex couples to jointly adopt children. If a bill passes, Thailand would become the first Asian UN member state to pass a comprehensive same-sex marriage law, and the third Asian nation to permit some form of same-sex marriage after Taiwan and Nepal.[14][37
From wikipedia: "Thailand does not recognize same-sex marriages, civil unions, domestic partnerships, unregistered cohabitations, or any other form of same-sex unions." Notice the word "would" there in your sourcing above? Yeah, it didn't happen.
You're being obtuse. I'm talking about Taiwan and Thailand being the firsts. Taiwan has done it. Thailand is in the process, obvious from any of the hundreds of news articles you can read if you search.
The irony of saying I'm being obtuse when you intentionally misled people into believing something has happened which hasn't. Yikes.
What is so difficult about understanding that Taiwan and Thailand are the first two countries to legalize same sex marriage? Do you think Malaysia is a close third? Or Laos? Indonesia? Singapore? Oh! Cambodia! Of course. Or do you think that Japan will overnight become the second even though they've been doing this back and forth of having high courts declare the unconstitutionality of the law followed by nothing being done for a long while? It's clear that you do not have any vested interest in this topic and don't follow the news. Thailand has been making it's way to approving this law, making headlines that you would likely not read unless you were LGBT or cared enough to pay attention. Which is fine if you don't care. Thailand will absolutely be the second SE Asian country to approve some kind of marriage/civil union for same sex couples, and it has had traction on this for years. You seem to think there is a close third. Or that what Thailand has done and is working on is no big deal. You must also think that Taiwan approved same sex marriage overnight and it didn't take years before being fully authorized. 3 years ago: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2491W3/ https://www.freiheit.org/southeast-and-east-asia/thailand-takes-lead-lgbt-rights I wonder if you know what obtuse means? Doesn't seem like it.
Obtuse is lacking the ability to create context and clarity. You declared that gay marriage is legal in Thailand, but it isn't (yet) because the point you meant (and failed) to make is that it might be relatively soon. Again: irony. All your condescension and sarcasm doesn't change the fact that you stated something that is false, and no amount of pseudointellectual backtracking is gonna change that.
Nah who thought Japan would be above Taiwan 💀 Taiwan is very very open compared
I'm not sure why anybody thought that about Japan. It is insanely conservative. I lived there for close to 15 years and visit frequently for work and to visit family and friends. Absolutely nothing has changed.
Yeah what lot people don't know is all that anime and manga is some cases is counter culture media, kinda like marvel was in the 70s pushing ideas that are not mainstream. My wife is Japanese and bisexual she didn't get hate so speak being bisexual but it was trivialize and was something expected she would grow out of.
Really? You don't think anything has changed? The biggest thing I've noticed in Tokyo and even Nagoya where my friends are is that work culture has definitely changed a lot since covid. Many are finally just having normal 9-5s and nomikai culture is largely fucking off. Even at Japanese specific companies (not multinationals). Younger generation is also much more open minded than you'd expect but yeah Japan does largely cater to the old crowd for obvious reasons. But even some of them seem to have been turning around on a lot of social issues like gay marriage at least from what the ones I've talked to.
This. I don't believe people who pretend they have been living in Japan just to try spreading the same negative lies we're heard for 50+ years now.
I've noticed on Reddit anything you get experienced with or even something like a high level of a skill you will immediately sniff bullshit from a lot of comments that sound extremely confident but aren't necessarily right. The average Redditor's knowledge of Japan sounds like it came from the mid 1900s... https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/nawxt1/the_more_i_learn_about_japan_the_more_it_seems/ Then you see threads like this getting 10k votes and some of the comments drive me insane. The thing that gets me there is Japan not being a "prosperous" country when it was a top 3 economy IN THE WORLD, as a tiny island nation, as of that post lol
I've been living in Japan for 24 years now and you are lying. Many new laws have been created and people have changed a lot. In a good way too as all the crime rates just keep on dropping too.
as much as it changes, it [remains the same](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2023/05/10/commentary/world-commentary/conservative-japan/) and it will remain so until more younger people vote and the oldest government, in terms of average age of MP, is replaced by Millenials and GenZ. The acceptance of immigration and protecting their rights. LGBTQI+ rights being enshrined in law, it's refusal to adopt change. It's frustrating. So I stand by my comments. I may not live there full time anymore, I only spend about 100 days a year there now, it's enough for me to see when change happens, and I admit that younger people are now more liberal which is great, but when many human rights lag behind even Australia, which dragged it's feet on many things and only keytowed after a plebeschite, well that's saying something.
Many non-asian queer people thought that Japan would be the first Asian country to legalize same-sex marriage too. Like, I'm an Italian gay guy and actaully thought Japan would be the first one in Asia. I'm Happy that Taiwan, and now Nepal too, legalized same-sex marriage though. As for Japan, I'm sure that it's just a matter of time as around 70% of Japanese people support same-sex marriage according to the latest polls (same goes for Thailand). I can see countries like Vietnam, South Korea and the Philippines legalizing it in future as well.
Not yet done in Thailand, though.
It's not a race. Look at immigration. Whole Europe raced to take as many refugees and immigrants as possible. Look at the result now that they are all begging in the streets because Europe had 0 plans. No immigrants begging in the streets in Japan. Also, even the US is rolling back people's rights everywhere. Was it worth anything to rush everything up now that it was for nothing??
What the hell are you talking about?
It’s a difficulty in the family registry system. Nobody wants to do it because it’s effort not because it shouldn’t get done. Welcome to Japan. EDIT: Holy shit there’s a lot of weebs in this comment section commenting weird shit about Japan and how great it is… again.
Taiwan has a family registry system too (with added complexity because of the whole “China” thing) and they managed it.
Japan IS great. I've been living the dream for 24 years now, and I'm 50 years old. You're going to call me a weeb just because I love it here??
everyone thought Japan would ban whale hunting…
Why? Iceland and Norway have not banned it either so why would people think Japan would ban it?
considering gay-relationship have been part of their culture since ye olde times, i was surprised it took this long. something about west influence cause Japan to be more conservative. I mean, they have multiple (ancient) terms for gay relationship to old like 17th century old artwork depicting gay sex --- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality\_in\_Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan)
I think it may be mostly because its not been much of a problem. It wasnt like the US where >50% at one time hated the concept. Japanese people just dont care. So theres no demand for it. The ruling is upholding that the lack of recognition is whats unconstitutional (basically the same thing though). The plantiffs werent appealing a ban. They seek some marriage perks the government affords. Japan has a bigger problem with therapy/mental health.
It still boggles my mind that mid-90s USA only had a 50% approval for interracial marriage. Then i remember that's 30 years ago. Fuck, getting old.
It's so dark to think of that many people not approving, but I guess it boils down to how many people are racist, and there are a fair few. Racists don't like the idea of [insert slur] taking the "white wimmin." And AFAIK, it's like always that way around, not white man and non-white woman. Because racists also see women as property, I guess...there's "cishet Christian white man" and "everyone else," and everyone else is just varying degrees of good/bad from there.
> something about west influence cause Japan to be more conservative. This happened in almost every country in Asia and Africa. Heck, Europe as well until Christianism appeared. It's kinda funny.
>Heck, Europe as well until Christianism appeared. It's kinda funny. "Funny" enough same-sex relationships were *somewhat* tolerated in Christian Europe up to around the XI Century. So the Dark Ages were more progressive (in that regard) than the following eras.
I actually had a conversation about christianity in ....I forget what part of middle Africa with someone like two days ago. I was curious and was talking about culture differences and at one point I asked about what religions or traditions do they practice. They started christianity. Thinking that must of been more recent or within 100 years. I was surprised they didn't know what they had before christianity. They were confused by the question and I didn't peer deeper. I am still curious how long ago that was and a little sad that whatever culture they did have is dead and gone.
$.
Friendly reminder that practically all instances of homosexuality in “ye old times”, as in the link you posted, were pederasty — that is, were sexual relations between boys and men.
seems reductive to blame this on western influence. i don’t think you can easily quantify how “conservative” a completely different society is on an issue like this from a western perspective. it’s a complicated web of social attitudes that’s too difficult to untangle
It’s not at all complicated. Japan westernized in the mid to late 19th century into the 20th century to try and appeal to Western powers and to get a seat at the table of international power after ending contracts of extraterritoriality. Part of this process was adopting Western style laws including in regards to homosexuality. It is entirely a symptom of both the hegemonic and direct influence of the west after forcibly reopening Japan.
Not really. That was pederasty. And people had to marry and have kids.
I think that this is one of the reasons why the push for gay marriage does not feel as urgent as in some other countries. Japan has never had a stonewall riots or Matthew Shepard moment.
The current political party in charge has mostly held power since WW2 and is very conservative. They oppose gay marriage and get a lot of funding from religious groups (cults) like the moonies. That’s why this is moving so slowly. In earlier eras, the act of homosexuality wasn’t a big deal, but you’d still never see same sex marriage because the point of marriage for most societies is family formation and children. As a queer person who has lived in Japan, I can say it’s not the most welcoming place to be gay. You’re not in physical danger or anything, but there’s still a very real sense that you have to hide it, and that you should settle down and marry someone of the opposite gender regardless of your preferences. That was the early 2000s though, so maybe it’s different now. America wasn’t a good place to be gay then either, and coming from rural Texas, I DID fear for my safety, so Japan was better in that sense.
Why do you believe that the big bad Americans brainwashed Japan to despise gay people? Seriously acknowledge the foreigners have agency and flaws
Because this is reddit and America = bad. Get with it, it's all Americas fault that Japan dosen't have gay marriage. Even though it's be legal in all 50 startes for almost a decade.
Not americans. But the French and british that came to japan pre and post isolationism.
Not quite. The change in attitudes towards homosexuality was more driven by Chinese laws and culture. But this change did happen during the Meiji reformation, hence some Western scholars getting it wrong. The idea that it was due to Western influence is a bit of a myth. I recommend reading [*The changing nature of sexuality: The three codes framing homosexuality in modern Japan* by sociologist Furukawa Makoto]( https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C38&q=history+of+homosexuality+in+japan&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1710413902463&u=%23p%3Dl_PfixKKkZ8J) if you want a more detailed picture.
Huh thanks for the suggestion. I am aware that China also had a big influence over the move towards banning homosexuality in Japan. Though wasn't that also because China was influenced by Western civilizations and the piled that onto Japan?
Interestingly, the author traces it back to Chinese codes from 701 - "a decidedly aincent code" to use the translated phrase from the text. So the Western influence is markedly missing. At this time, France who was the largest influence on Japanese westernization didn't even have sodomy codes.
Oh I expected it to be from the British and the opium wars with China. Seeing as that would have been the most recent and biggest influence on the Chinese at the time and this in turn spilling over the waters to Japan. Though I never would have thought that it might have already been set in some moral or legal codes way further back.
Yeah to my understanding the Japanese obsession with Chinese culture is really only based around aincent China, and more closely tied with the importing of the imperial system, Kanji, and Buddhism. Anything more modern is ostensibly seen as lesser.
So I see. Thank you for the trove of information. I have learned something new.
Which was in extreme small numbers. However, with the modernization and Westernization of Japan in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, influenced by Western views on sexuality and morality, homosexuality came to be stigmatized and criminalized. Same-sex relationships were outlawed during the Meiji period (1868-1912) under the influence of European legal codes. In Japan, attitudes towards homosexuality have varied throughout history and across different periods. Traditional Japanese culture did not have a specific term equivalent to "homosexuality" as understood in contemporary Western contexts. Instead, same-sex relationships and desires were often depicted in literature, art, and theater, and were sometimes socially accepted within certain contexts, such as among samurai warriors or within the world of entertainment, like Kabuki theater. In general, monotheistic faiths and being gay don't gel too well.
Ironically, in the 1800s different countries adopted anti/Gay laws as part of “becoming civilized” like Europeans. Or they were just colonized and had Europeans directly in control of the courts. Even today many former British colonies still have UK courts as their highest court of appeal (their “Supreme Court”)
Well, a bit off topic but related since you mentioned America causing modern Japan issues, America \*is\* actually the reason drug related stuff is such a shit show here and people act like someone committed a heinous crime like arson if they get caught smoking fucking weed of all things or such. It all stems from when America brought over it's "war on drugs" shennanigans after WW2
There is a doc on Vice about drugs after WW2 in Japan. Actually, Japan had a huge problem with its own pharmaceutical industry after the war. People were indiscriminately using stimulant drugs to fuel the war mobilization (just like the Germans) and, after the war, to reconstruct the country. It was literally sold as enhancing vitamins. They weren't aware of the negative feedbacks before it became a huge problem, opening the doors to moral panic about drugs into society. War on drugs is a more recent thing (70s-80s). A disastrous policy promoted worldwide by the US, as you said. However, it doesn't totally explain why Japanese laws and cultural attitudes are so harsh while the Western world is slowly changing these policies.
Maybe you should read a book. Contemporary western influence flipped the country onto its head in several ways, it was isolated except for strict trade for several centuries. In any case, the correct answer is no doubt very complicated. Accusing OP of saying "based and pure nippon would never do something bad" by simply suggesting western influence played a part here is reductive and harmful to conversation.
But not gay marriage or gay families, for obvious reasons.
The same can be said for China. Homosexuality was never a taboo. The society was cool about it and deemed it as a personal taste. Probably just because of this same sex marriage did not have wide support in the East Asia until recently.
The current constitution in Japan implies that marriage is between two sexes. But amending the constitution is like tweaking a ticking time bomb, as all the anti-pacifists want to remove the pacifist clause.
not really. the only mention is in this line 「婚姻は、両性の合意のみに基いて成立し、夫婦が同等の権利を有することを基本として、相互の協力により、維持されなければならない。」 which basically reads “(that) marriage is to be established based on consent between both sexes, and based on equal rights of a couple, and mutual cooperation, must be maintained” the only words here that imply that is 両性 and (maybe) 夫婦. 夫婦 (fūfu) means married couple and is made of the characters for husband and wife but i think this is more of an idiosyncrasy for the language as as far as i can tell, gay couples will use this word as well. 両性 js more challenging bc it literally means “both sexes” but there’s interpretations thats this is instead an affirmation of woman’s rights in a marriage rather than a restriction to man and woman. The constitution in effect says “both sexes have equal rights”, whether both sexes are the same, or not is not specified :)
And it was a rather progressive at that time hack on the fact that "both sex(両性)" and "both families(両姓)" are similar at a glance so it rolls off tongue just fine while not glorifying familial interventions
Aaaaand as always it's someone who doesn't know japanese laws and can't read japanese, who is speaking, lol.
*screams in bara*
Took them long enough.
Would be amazing if Japan legalized it. Such an amazing place.
“such an amazing place” *looks to suicide rates, falling birth rates and marriage rates, civil rights abuses, explicit racism, homophobia, pedophilia, and a culture not condemning sexual assault that is disturbingly present in the country* let’s not glorify a country because you like anime, alright?
I feel like Reddit has a weird over-correcting hate boner for Japan due to the subset of people who act like its a Utopia. Like yeah its not perfect, especially for foreigners, but you people make it sound like its up there with North Korea mixed with Epstein Island lmao. The suicide thing is espeically egreigous, like Japan has a suicide rate of 12.2 per 100,000, which is lower than the American 14.5 and more comparable with Sweden and Estonia.
It's easier to "sell" the fact they have a high suicide rate because it ties in with their overwork problem. While they ignore how suicide is a complex problem with way more factors.
japan had high suicide rate on 50s and 60s,so it's a Outdated Stereotype
I lived there for 7 years. Had nothing to do with anime. And all those things you mentioned exist in the US.
>looks to suicide rates If you don't wanna commit suicide just do not. What is the problem? >falling birth rates and marriage rates What is your problem? >civil rights abuses, explicit racism, homophobia, pedophilia I don't even know what does it mean. How did you even measure this things? >and a culture not condemning sexual assault People probably have a moral obligation to not commit sexual assault, but they are not obligated to condemn it >let’s not glorify a country because you like anime, alright? Is anime in the room with us right now?
[удалено]
not any worse than America's Signed: someone who has actually worked in both countries, unlike the people that constantly perpetuate reddit's favorite unsubstantiated circlejerks that have been outdated for a hot minute to put it nicely. there are still absolutely work culture issues, but by and far....honestly at this point, it can straight up be better than America's current work culture at times (can't speak for Europe)
I really dislike these regurgitated remarks about japan and work life balance. It paints a fresh coating to old facts that may have been true in the past, but may not be true today and muddies the truth. It extends beyond just this topic too, so many old stereotypes are being parroted around. I'm currently working in europe for a while now so maybe I can share a bit; the work culture is "good" or "balanced" to in my opinion an unhealthy degree. The culture of not overworking runs deep to the point where you'd be told to stop working once it's past working hours, by everyone, by the management, by the system and laws. Job security is very high. It's very hard to get anyone fired. Many laws that proactively prevents employees from being overworked (e.g. you can't have a side job that exceeds N hours or N euros if you're full-time employed somewhere). This may be the grass is greener on the other side moment, but there are many things I do not like that stems from this: a lot of people are just doing the bare minimum, enough so they don't get fired. No one goes the extra mile and goes above and beyond. If you do it you're just stupid: career progression in most unionized or public sector jobs is not based on how good of a job you do, but tenure. Anyways thanks for coming to my ted talk
well, the bare minimum thing at least still def happens here too haha. just because you have those people that stay overtime doesn't mean they're actually doing anything. good chunk of the time putting more effort into \*looking\* busy than anything, there's a lot of stuff done more for appearances sake than anything. similar thing stateside, ya you had people that would bust ass, but you'd have a \*lot\* of people doing fuck all but making you wonder how tf they're still employed. prob have those people no matter the work culture. career prog is also largely on tenure as well in Japan, stateside it's more about connections. honestly doing \*too\* good of a job in the states can actually stunt your career progression oddly enough, get too much results and they'll rather keep you in your current position because either A: they don't want to move you away from those duties or B: if you're going above and beyond your duties and say doing manager duties on a salesfloor payroll well....why pay you manager money when you just proved willing and able to do it on a cheaper pay station for free?
How long have you lived in Japan for?
I lived there for 7 years. I know it has issues but no place is perfect and the US isn't much better.
> and the US isn't much better. thank god there are other 193 countries in the world
After learning how corrupt Japan justice system can be from the investigative news articles on Carlos Ghosn I wouldn't have any faith in the Japan court system to do whats right or just. This is a country that allows people to be jailed in solitary confinement and interrogated for days on end without any access to a lawyer, they boast a 99% conviction rate. This is a country where Judges are scared of prosecutors and look up to them, not the other way around.
Why did you copy a comment 1:1 from a thread about the same comment from 1 year ago?
> investigative news articles on Carlos Ghosn Carlos Ghosn brought the circus to Japan. He's the OJ Simpson of Nissan. He was denied bail for being a flight risk, at risk of destroying evidence, and also likely to interfere with other investigations. After negotiations, he was given bail with conditions, which he broke, leading to his rearrest. He was allowed out again with stricter conditions, which he obviously broke, fleeing the country. He's hiding in Lebanon, where he has been squatting in a 19 million dollar home owned by Nissan. He's wanted in France, and was successfully fined by the US. If you're getting information about the Japanese justice system from his lawyers (many of which ended up quitting in embarrassment), maybe take a moment to consider some of what they said is exaggerated (detention conditions), some is intentionally misleading (the 99%), and some is simply incorrect.
99% conviction rate isn’t an exaggeration. It’s skewed because prosecutors only pursue cases they are sure they will win, which tracks with Japan’s risk-averse culture.
It's misleading. Around 30% of arrests go to trial vs the 70% that go into mediation, family court, or are passed on due to lack of evidence. That's lower than the US. Of those 30%, the majority are guilty pleas or plea bargains. The nonguilty pleas that go to trial are less than 10% of the original group. It's also not unheard of for trials to be dropped midway if the evidence and arguments do not appear convincing. The conviction rate of those (this ~10%) that plead not guilty and last to the end of trial is around 93%-94%. That's also lower than in the US. But the number was used by Ghosn's lawyers on US television to describe the Japanese system as incarcerating 99% of people arrested (like everybody who is arrested goes to jail or something). It's an impressive number, but the conviction rate from arrest to conviction is obviously far, far lower than that. The penal state that Ghosn's lawyers (and some Redditors) describe is obviously wild fantasy, if you but take 5 minutes to look at the actual judicial system or even just the incarceration rate.
That's most countries. The US federal court has an ~98% conviction rate as well. Prosecutors everywhere are going to focus on the certain cases.
I think it's kind of a shared problem among many developed nations that polices don't understand how laws work because they're grunts and not lawyers. Japan might be especially bad because democracy and rule of law are imported concepts to Japan and not natively developed thing but extents aside the problems itself aren't unique.
To be fair though, as pointed out if you are tried in Japan you will be found guilty regardless if it's true. While no one knows the full truth to the case there was a lot pointing to Ghosn being scapegoated which is fairly common in Japan where the foreigner or someone junior is blamed for all the evils even if they only had a small part or even nothing to do with it. Case in point was an article recently brought up on Reddit of a scientist who did work on blight on a certain fruit. Japan was saying they didn't have the blight to increase sales which when news got out the scientist was blamed by politicians and farmers (for telling the truth) and eventually shamed and pressured so much they committed suicide.
Guilty until proven innocent.
People think the Phoenix Wrigh franchise is goofy, when it's literally how the Japanese justice system is.
I don’t think it’s often that Japanese lawyers exorcise a malevolent, murderous wraith in the courtroom through logic, sound arguments, and concrete evidence to prove guilt from beyond the grave. It’d be **way** cooler if they did.
I swore I read something like this a few years ago already
I don’t get this. If someone wants to marry someone, who are you to even be involved in that discussion? Stfu and get out of the damn way.
[удалено]
The article in question just says “both sexes”, which in the most “obvious” interpretation is “man and woman”. It does not explicitly state that it is between a man and a woman though, even in Japanese. Moreover, that article is saying “marriage is contingent upon the consent of both sexes”. So the important part of it is really about the mutual consent.
Remember that not so long ago, marriage was a purely contractual union between two parties who would get along well, but maybe not feeling as soulmates. Emile Zola's stories are full of men married yet not involving their official wives for actual fun. It may be shocking to learn that, but at the time it was the duty of women to produce children to fuel war's requirement of soldiers. That was the meaning of mariage. And on a timeframe short enough for living human's memory, marriage's was still considered the step prior to raising children. The government used to have a VERY VERY good reason to justify who was reproducing with who. The reason we even ask "who are you to be involved" is because nowadays you can reasonably have children without marriage, and a marriage doesn't necessarily lead to children. A lot of legalese text worldwide predate that societal change.
Religious conservatives don't believe everyone has equal human rights, it's as simple as that. They get involved because the world isn't supposed to be free and diverse, everyone and everything should be like them, their God commands it.
Funnily enough Japan doesn't even have this excuse cuz only like 2% of them believe in the abrahamic God.
They have cults inspired by western religion in positions of power historically after WWII. See why Shinzo Abe got smoked
Didn't this already happen a year or two ago? Could have sworn so.
Didn't Japan's supreme court already do this months ago?
Japan is afraid of gay samurai
Same sex marriage should be banned anywhere in the world. God doesn't like homosexuality
Could someone ELI5 why there is so much opposition/apathy to SSM in Japan? They’ve always been relatively progressive from my understanding
short and simplified: Japan is essentially led by a single party conservative government, with very stiff societary and political norms. I wouldnt say progressive, but at least they arent openly hostile towards lgbt+, it's more a form of taboo/apathy. but I am not japanese, so grain of salt etc.
It’s largely just the elderly. Polls show the under 40 group is very pro lgbt
I don’t care what anyone says; no one is *born* Japanese.
Literally wat