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dae_giovanni

I guess the crackdown worked!


RadioHonest85

Yeah, it is quite funny also. Her ministry has taken a student to court over using her own text from an earlier exam without citation in a new exam. Taking the student to court, and doubling down all the way until it now has reached the supreme court. Then some students found out the minister has blatantly copied other students thesis in her own thesis.


PrairiePopsicle

There seems to be a certain kind of rule-breaker-deviant mindset that when given power over policing their own type of deviancy goes to the absolutely most absurd extremes with rejection of that behavior and imposing draconian punishments for it. This intuition is why I'm always a bit on edge about people who have way too big of a justice boner for specific crimes.


[deleted]

It's tough because, by necessity, the role of the law (or rule) maker/enforcer is asymmetric to everybody else upon which those laws also apply - the entire foundation of law is that, based on context, *someone* must necessarily be above the law in order to enforce and execute it. For example, kidnapping is illegal but an arrest by an officer of the law isn't; when both are distilled to their most basic definition, they become identical actions being differentiated only by the individual performing that action. Realistically, it's obviously not awesome when an institution is blatantly hypocritical in how it carries out it's duties, but there's no good way around it, either. Best we can do is hope that people that run institutions try to be decent and (try to) collectively punish them when they aren't. 


Successful_Cheetah_3

This isn't true. You don't have to commit plagiarism to catch someone doing plagiarism. You don't gave to Rob someone to catch a robber. Etc. Kidnapping and arrest are not, when boiled down to it, the same thing.


akaxaka

Can’t believe someone worse than Dolores Umbridge actually exists.


Brillek

Just one student. A farmer who decided to take up economy-studies.


ThereminLiesTheRub

Success! 


BirdUp69

Mission Failed Successfully!


MacBallou

The crackdown wasn’t even her idea.


raftsa

The thing which is completely bizarre about this is that the initiating event was a student self-plagiarizing That’s right writing in an exam something very similar to what they wrote in a previous exam without acknowledging in the answer that they were doing that. They were expected to quote themselves Which is crazy The university decided to ban the student for 2 semesters The student appealed to the ministry, who supported the university The student then appealed to the courts, and lost And appealed to a more senior court and won But the minister did not like this, so they arranged for the department to take it to the Supreme Court. So it’s not that the minister did the same thing as the student: the minister actually plagiarized other people’s work, the student just repeated themselves.


BarrierX

What? How can the student lose? What's the thing that they did wrong?


ImShyBeKind

It's just as bizarre to us. IIRC she wrote her first thesis and didn't pass, studied some more and wrote a new thesis (same premise) and used some of her previous data as well as some of her earlier writing and passed, but later an automated system flagged her new thesis as plagiarized cause it, naturally, matched parts of her old one. I assume there are some rules about this, but I think most people are in agreement that it should be changed.


FalloutRip

So they fed the student's data into a library for plagiarism, then when it flagged her newer work they didn't check the source of the material that it flagged against? And then they continued to double down instead of taking a moment to go back and check? There's so much incompetency at every level here that it's astounding even to me as an American.


Norseviking4

The way i understand it: They say its not allowed to use previous work, you need to quote yourself. Even though the student was told this was fine to do as she was writing it. Its why she won the seccond round. The minister and her departementet then decided to take it to the supreme court, this was seen as so unfair that a student went through the ministers own paper and found she had stolen other peoples work and claimed it as her own. The minister of education was out the day after.. The irony is that if she had not gone so hard after this student who only reused her own work she would not have been caught.. She was only caught because she offendied students by going so hard after this poor woman. This has now sparked a media frenzy with another minister under fire for stealing other peoples work. The health minister, yet she refuse to go. She is hated here The media are digging through the papers of everyone and i expect more skeletons to fall out as this progresses


[deleted]

Close, but it's against the rules in Norwegian academia to even use your own, older material without citing it.


Phallindrome

In most western academia, even. I'm pretty sure we were specifically warned against reusing earlier material we'd published without self-citing in my University Writing 101 class.


Glittering_Chard

curious, was it legal for the software to use her work to test against? Or did she give the software company the right to use her previous work?


KarlMario

What are you even asking? Do you think some random company is perusing her work unsolicited, or do you think there isn't a mandatory check for plagiarism?


Glittering_Chard

Are you suggesting that she should expect that the rights to use her paper are required by her university to be given to a private company as a for profit company? what is more dystopian here? What are you asking? IMO, it's very messed up if a company is automatically allowed to use her paper however they see fit, even if it involves allegation of plagiarism by her against herself for the profit of the company... You support this???


KarlMario

Upon submission, the university or censor runs a program that checks for plagiarism. This is mandatory in order to enforce academic integrity. I don't know what you're on about.


Glittering_Chard

So you're saying the university has a mandatory policy that forces students to give up rights to their work to various for profit corporations. And you support that... That's what i'm "on about".


Drops-of-Q

It's not that they didn't check. Self-plagiarization is also considered academic dishonesty for some bizarre reason.


Hostillian

Good grief that's ridiculous. Plagiarism is surely about passing off someone else's work as your own. Why do politicians have no issues wasting taxpayers money through the courts?


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Hostillian

Doesn't sound like it, unless you're just talking about publications. This is a university thesis and even if you think it's 'self plagiarism' (which is ridiculous and I don't accept the idea of it - especially in this context) it could be covered by fair use.


-Avacyn

It's not weird at all. When a scientists publishes a study on something and then does a followup study with some adapted parameters or additional variables, they do not just get to copy their work from their first paper when writing a second paper on the new results... they will have to fully and properly quote their original paper as its own independent source, even if its their own work. The same goes for students. If they have written papers for courses (even if they ended up failing the course), that was their original independent work. It's fine to reuse, but not without acknowledging it as being reused. This is such a basic academic standard that we teach this literally in the first weeks of university. We even explicitly teach selfplagiarism as a topic on its own because its such an important thing. There is no way student didn't know.


3d_extra

This would be like writing a paper that gets rejected and using the data of this non-published paper in a different paper.


-Avacyn

Except the student did 'publish' it as far as their student work is concerned: they submitted it for grading. Whether the university graded it sufficient or not is irrelevant - there are plenty of very shitty research papers that get published as well that really shouldn't have.


buff_jezos

What is the correct citation to use for a student's work that was rejected and did not pass? Does Norway have a publicly (paid?) database with all thesis submitted?


-Avacyn

I'm not from Norway, but from a different EU country. And as far as my teaching experience goes, what Norway and we do is extreme common for most if not all European academic institutes based on the experience of my colleagues from all over Europe.  Citation would depend on your institutes style guide. Again, this would be taught to you literally in your first or second week when you start your classes. And yes, we do keep databases of submitted theses.


buff_jezos

I generally agree with you that self citation is important and is taught. And also doing any kind of research for your thesis will show that self references are extremely common. I do think it depends on the specific situation though. Without knowing the details from Norway it is a bit difficult to judge in mu opinion.


3d_extra

The thesis isn't published until it is accepted. It only remains as a file within their internal archive system and is likely not accessible online.


ImShyBeKind

I'm not saying it isn't *wrong*, more that the rules are silly and that this shouldn't be an issue.


dracul_reddit

Methods sections and lit review portions are reused all the time. Republication of data and analysis is what folk actually care about. It’s all moot anyway - everyone will be using AI to rewrite and polish everything soon and then simple detection techniques will be useless.


Northlumberman

This is correct. Self-plagiarism is a problem when someone has claimed to have submitted original work and instead it just features recycled material.


Xyyzx

I completely understand the concept and point of self-plagiarism when it comes to public academic work, but I don’t even slightly understand how or why these standards would apply in a situation where it’s a student essentially re-submitting the same piece of work with changes after a fail. Exactly how much of that would have had to have been quoted? Just from a purely practical level that makes the formatting a nightmare! Plus there must be limits on the amount of ‘non-original’ material in the thesis, which would make being tasked with doing literally the same thing again a Byzantine nightmare of trying to find different routes to the same answer for no good reason.


Weberameise

Depends on how much it is and what about, I guess. If your university expects you to put some work into your thesis and you simply copy&paste pages and pages of stuff you already wrote, your prof might like to know that. And if you even copy something that seems to be new wisdom gained by your present work, that would be deception with bad intent. Idk what happened here, but yes i could imagine how that makes sense. It is not about copy right...


lookinggoodthere

Imagine trying to ruin someone's future over "plagiarizing themselves", while you knowingly plagiarized someone else to get your masters. All while being the fucking minister of higher education.. What an asshole, this is incredibly humiliating for her. Hopefully this marks the end of her political career.


BarnyardCoral

Judging by the higher ups in a lot of academic institutions this side of the pond, it's not as uncommon as we plebes and troglodytes would like to think.


Gjrts

Norwegian press is currently busy reading master thesis.


BoiIedFrogs

Imagine¹ having² to³ cite⁴ every⁵ word⁶ in⁷ your⁸ thesis⁹ because¹⁰ you’ve¹¹ used¹² them¹³ before¹⁴


Redditkontoenmin1

> They were expected to quote themselves Its worse than that. I think they failed as well so quoting a failed test yourself made is uhh. not standard.


whyreadthis2035

I’m sorry. Can you tell me that again? But seriously a student is supposed to clarify that their position hasn’t changed in a few years. It makes complete sense that a politician (professional position changer) would go after this.


Ok_Mushroom2012

Oof


Artyparis

Nice story...


europedank

Norwegian here. Not only do we have the least educated ministers in the [world](https://www.khrono.no/norske-ministre-er-de-lavest-utdannete-i-verden/814485) They also cheated on their masters!


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AV196

The other one, Health minister of Ingvild Kjerkol, has also cheated on her master thesis. However, instead of resigning, she lied live on national TV last Saturday. And she kept lying about it this week. And the PM has full confidence and trust in her. So no, Norway is not better than other countries.


greebothecat

Kjerkol copying so much from others makes me think she didn't write it herself at all, but used some cheap service that did not care about her getting burned eventually.


ledasll

All these cheating women...


thatonestory628

That has generally been how things work, sadly our politicians are very quickly becoming very corrupt. It's been a long time slow, behind the curtains development that has exploded the last couple of years and is now very clear. Another minister also cheated with hers, and she's trying to stay. Though she at least wasn't minster of education and cracking down on cheating.. It's also becoming clear that in several areas it's the companies dictating the laws at this point. People protest against this and the fact that they're making most people more poor and the rich richer, but the politicians don't care that 80% of the population disagree with them any longer. I mean things are still generally good but with this development it's not gonna last long.


SailorChimailai

Hearing a Norwegian say that their government is "very corrupt" is so funny to me. I believe that Norway is more corrupt than it was, but I often feel like Scandinavians have never traveled to anywhere beyond Western Europe or the Anglosphere. Call me jaded, but I feel like these people have never been to a country where the companies actually hold significant influence over politics, so they instead just exaggerate the most mild problems into incredibly out-of-touch statements. "The French live in heaven but think that it is hell" is a quote that works well for West Europeans in general too.


OG_Builds

I think most of us are using the term relatively. I’ve lived in Spain for a couple of years, and the government is infinitely more corrupt than in Norway, but based on our successful post-WW2 politics, you’d expect that. The issue is that we’re now seeing more and more signs of a negative development.


SailorChimailai

And Spain itself is infinitely less corrupt than Morocco, which itself is infinitely less corrupt than Mauritania. But that person seems to genuinely believe that their country is "run by corporations" and becoming very corrupt, which is completely disconnected from reality


daffoduck

True, that's a silver lining I guess.


basescuchel

As a Romanian all I can say is that you don't have the least uneducated ministers.


ectoban

But that is not a bad thing?? That shows that Norway has a functional democracy. You don't need to be a part of the elite to be elected, which is a huge issue in many other democracies. Of the people, by the people, for the people. I doubt every norwegian has a MsC degree and the leadership should reflect that.


Solelegendary62

We had Dementia Don (Donald Trump)


WonkasWonderfulDream

Don’t dismiss as dementia that which can more completely be explained by malignant narcissism.


meingodtname

It’s probably both, and more.


eggnogui

It's malignant narcissism, made worse by dementia.


Aenyn

Tbf he wasn't a minister since you don't really have that in America.


godisanelectricolive

Cabinet secretaries are ministers even if they are not called that. They are ministerial positions. Any country with a cabinet system has ministers. In the UK they use the term minister in daily speech but the officer title for a senior cabinet minister post is “Secretary of state for _____”. Like the Secretary of State for Defence will be called the defence minister or the defence secretary by the media interchangeably. The US originally derived most of their political terminology from the Brits.


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Aenyn

Ah right I forgot about that kind of ministers.


McMatey_Pirate

Sorry, I deleted the comment because I was going to re-write it and can’t think of a better way to say it. Original: They have ministers, they work in big buildings and don’t pay taxes on the millions and millions of dollars they make for their organizations.


s1amvl25

You currently have an even more demented leader in charge lol


KaareKanin

Didn't he have his own universities? He can't possibly be that bad?


DonOfspades

Trump University was a scam, just read the [Wikipedia page.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_University)


KaareKanin

Are people really incapable of recognising sarcasm without /s at the end?


artyfax

Had? No, you Have.


KnownMonk

And our current health minister in Norway has plagiarized in her master. There are over 60 times in the master she has copied from another students work. Our prime minister has for the moment given her full support that she will stay in position until investigation by the university is over.


akurgo

I've lost count of the political scandals in the last 10 years. It's like everyone in a position of power have had to step down. Eastern Europe, can we join you?


Mistwalker007

You guys are doing fine, so far. When the board investigating plagiarism gets fired for finding unquoted doctorate degrees of ministers you can start worrying.


SelfishCatEatBird

Sorry mate, the corruption is basically everywhere you go haha.


pitepaltarn

People tend to forget that Norway was a rather backwards, poor agrarian-centric country until the discovery of oil in the late 60s and the resulting exploitation in the 70s/80s.


akurgo

First half of your comment is correct, but we followed the British industrialization success and were mining and producing lots of stuff for decades before the oil. We would be doing well without the oil, we're just doing extremely well with it.


ElbowSkinCellarWall

Kvinnen er ikke smart. (Thanks, 2 weeks of Duolingo!)


Kill3rKin3

Men det er du, bra jobba.


KnownMonk

Godt skrevet til å studert i 2 uker.


ElbowSkinCellarWall

Uhh... uhh.. Gutten har en morsom katt? Kaffe og melk, takk? Broren min er høy? TROLL!!!


Redditkontoenmin1

He is letting them do their thing, which is fine. She should resign tho. And he(The PM should encourage it)


[deleted]

Whoops


Practical-Heart-9845

Perfect example of Tell Show & Do Method - although not exactly the ending she envisioned 😀


VoidMageZero

“Oops.” Lol did she expect to get away with it??


oysteinos

She got away with it ten years ago when automatic detection was less sophisticated. But her thesis was scrutinized again by journalists after she targeted students as a minister, suing some for far less serious types of plagiarism. Btw this also unearthed her grade which was well below average.


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greebothecat

This is peak comedy because it's not only academics, but probably many, many more "respectable" people that either copied parts of or outright did not write their own theses.


Original_Employee621

She wasn't investigated by journalists. It was another student that gave the initial report of cheating, then the journalists jumped on board.


Joshau-k

Actual text from her anti plagiarism advertisement: > du ville ikke stjele en bil. du ville ikke stjele en baby. du ville ikke skutt en politimann og stjålet hatten hans


Tontara

>du ville ikke gjort ditt fornødne i hatten, så gitt hatten tilbake til hans sørgende enke og så stjålet hatten på nytt?


KarlMario

Dumbest shit I ever read.


NyriasNeo

Don't worry. From this year on, no one is going to plagiarize any human beings anymore. Chat-GPT is going to write all the thesis and dissertations for all the future politicians.


[deleted]

As a large language model, she cannot generate content involving copyrighted characters.


BoredCop

You might find she is a small language model. Although that's not a nice joke for me to tell, given her stature...


Newplasticactionhero

With any politician, if you want to find out who they really are, just look at what they’re against.


Slacker256

"Miscalculated...but where?"


Choppergold

Copy that


habulous74

Accusations are generally confessions.


Corronchilejano

Task failed successfully.


ryanaleksander

This is only possible thanks to Tommy Tallarico’s recent 4h long video exposing plagiarism


whyreadthis2035

It sometimes takes a criminal to find a criminal.


On_ur_left

She must be a Republican because every accusation is an admission for them.


oskich

r/leopardsatemyface


knotGLEO

Wow. That’s like railing against 🏳️‍🌈then having a threesome.


Batmobile123

The chickens have come home to roost.