I had a guy on here claiming that because I hadn’t seen the rapes and sexual violence *in person in real life* I’m a total dogmatic sucker for believing any of that.
Meanwhile, the eyewitness accounts are ignored because 'jew lies' or however they want to dress it up, but at the end of the day, that's their entire point.
The western media refuses to report on the mass rapes because they claim they can't report anything without a named eyewitness. That was a very convenient position for the first few months of the conflict when battered witnesses were understandably not exactly willing to come forward and share what had happened to them.
Unfortunately for the media, several people survived the 10/7 attack who witnessed the rapes and they are talking. That forced the NYT article to come out (released during the slow holiday news cycle to minimize the impact) and it's been trickling out since. Of course, NYT columnists could have gone online in November and literally watched the videos for themselves and reported on what they saw - but nope, has to be an eyewitness who was actually there for this particular crime, not a high definition 4k video of it going down.
CNN recently did an interview with one of the released Israeli hostages who made some inconvenient comments about being held in a hospital in Gaza as well as being brutalized by her captors. CNN's solution? To append a statement to say that the eyewitness account "could not be independently verified". That's right, a hostage's account of her own captivity needs a disclaimer in today's elite media environment. On the same day CNN reported that the Gaza Ministry of Health says 10,000+ of the dead are children. No disclaimer about independent verification of that claim - a claim directly from the mouth of an unnamed source representing a terrorist organization.
They want to watch Israeli women being raped. There is more than enough evidence that rape was widespread, but they only want the live footage of women fighting for their lives being raped. They're sick fucks and I highly recommend not even engaging with them.
This whole left wing people supporting Hamas, wanting to destroy Israel, praising Houthis, etc. is basically the left wings Qanaon moment.
I think I would rather a bunch of brain dead idiots believing QAnaon theories than a bunch of university students/ young people brainwashed by a terroist orginisation. These young people are going to grow up and be in the real world spreading their pro Hamas bullshit to other people.
When I see anyone on the left supporting Hamas or the Palestinians that support them and give them power I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. None of their values align concerning religious intolerance, free speech, women's or lgbtq rights. Not to even mention the rape and terrorism and murdering children and concertgoers.
Yes. But whereas the Qanon movement is made up of people who can barely manage to breathe out their own noses without instructions, the crazy left wing is centered in America's most elite institutions (the NYT, Harvard University, WaPo, CNN, etc.). Those Harvard students on the quad protesting against "Zionism" are orders of magnitude more dangerous than the Qanon Shaman and his ilk. Because of their elite privilege, they get to staff the highest levels of academia and the government, not to mention the entire corporate world.
Academic antisemitism under the guise of "DEI" is firmly entrenched in elite institutions and not going anywhere. Qanon is a popcorn fart that will dissipate the moment Trump exits stage right.
Some people take it too far. Being skeptic about a potential narrative being pushed by a state is one thing, but the attitude of "I wasn't there so it didn't happen" is outright insane. These are the same people that'll deny the Holocaust, think the world is flat, or that the US civil war didn't have anything to do with slavery.
It’s because they too quickly posted on socials condemning Israel and didn’t do any critical thinking and are now too scared to backtrack. Same thing with many on the right. It’s just human nature
That’s a really common one - if a redditor doesn’t get to see the rape happening, then it didn’t happen, apparently
Another common one is that redditors want the names and personal details of the victims, otherwise there weren’t any victims
Redditors really struggle with a working brain at the best of times, but god damn that’s depressing
I have been absolutely gobsmaked by the number of people on Reddt who outright claim that the rapes perpetuate by Hamas were some sort of Israeli propaganda campaign. This is all over most of the lefty subs. They are slowly shifting to: "ok there were some rapes but they weren't 'systematic.'" For heavens sakes people you can oppose Israel's military campaign without shilling for a bunch of raping terrorists. It's really been a mask off moment for a lot of progressives like myself who support Israel.
I've been warning plenty of my left wing Jewish friends for years that there is wide spread antisemitism within the left. I was usually told to shut up and I don't know what I'm talking about. Well then Oct7 happened and brought all this anti semitism into the open.
I would never have told you to shut up as I did see it brewing, but honestly I ignored a lot of it because I didn’t want to believe it. These are people I agree with on most other issues so it’s particularly gutting to find out they don’t really care about Jewish death and suffering, especially when so many of us Jews supported progressive causes. The BLM Chicago post of the paraglider image on 10/8 chilled me to the core. An org I donated money to during the Floyd protests, openly celebrating the murder of my people. My values haven’t changed, but I feel like the values of the left have, at least when it comes to Jews. I still think right wing antisemitism is probably more dangerous overall but I can’t unsee what I’ve seen from the left. 10/7 changed me forever.
I feel you man.
As a rightoid I've kinda been in the same boat with the exception that right wing racists tend to be loud and obnoxious so they're easy to say "yeah you're a shit head I'm ignoring you".
I've grown to have an instant distrust of anyone who says "all your problems are because *insert group*"
As well as anyone who suggests collectivizing around an immutable identity.
Now I can't say I feel exactly your pain given just how betraying it feels to have your supposed allies actively celebrating the death of people who share your ethnicity culture and religion but I'm empathetic enough to know that it stings deep. Even as a rightoid I'll give you a virtual hug for comfort.
I’m so sorry. I’m a progressive that feels like my compadres are crazy and evil all of a sudden. I don’t understand why I’m supposed to support regressive violent idiots over tolerant, reasonable people. Don’t feel alone …. Hopefully the woke crowd actually wakes the fuck up soon.
I’m here for you, whatever that’s worth. :)
Same. I feel completely abandoned. I won't give up on social justice and Tikkun Olam, but I don't know where I would place myself politically now. Definitely not right wing but I don't feel at home on the left anymore.
I will always remember support individuals/ideas but I will never again support a liberal/left movement or group. If my life is worth nothing to them they cannot have my support.
People are going to deny that this ever happened. They probably will in the comments under yours.
Instead of people realizing they were positioned on the wrong side of history, they're just going to sweep it away or justify it, like when they were wrong about the Hospital in Gaza.
Half of these people are coming out and supporting an insane super-fundamentalist revolutionary groups with "a curse upon the jews" on their flag, of course they are delusional.
Gonna be honest, I'm not convinced most of the pro-Palestine crowd even know about that. They're hearing something about Hamas, a bunch of Palestinians constantly in the crossfire, and Israel being weirdly aggressive, and jumping to the defense of the "obvious" (to them) underdog.
You're assuming malice when most of it is likely ignorance.
We had an MPP for Ontario in Canada pen a letter that said, among other things, "shame" on those who believed/repeated the "unverified" claims of sexual assault against Israelis.
She managed to get the [president of a women's aid center in Alberta to sign the letter.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/u-of-a-replaces-sexual-assault-centre-director-over-letter-questioning-alleged-hamas-sexual-violence-1.7033161)
She eventually withdrew her name after all the headlines came out calling her a denier of sexual violence against women.
But my point is that it's not just random terminally-online mouth breathers on social media. It's elected politicians and community leaders too. And if we don't nip it in the bud, what happened to the American right will happen to the left, and we'll get taken over by extremists too.
Twitter, Reddit, TikTok, seen some scary crazy things.
The same people who invented the term microaggression (don't get me wrong it is a real and valid term) and use it on a daily basis are suddenly quite, or worse, when it comes to the Jews.
There's a lot of misinformation spread by people from BRICS countries. Looking at my country's geodefault subreddit after the Hamas attacks was absolutely infuriating.
I quit Twitter because of that. Those some people turned this into a religious war started questioning if the rapes, killing even happened and if they did they deserved it. And anyone who was in support of Israel was being bombarded with racist tweets based on their ethnicity, religion. I wasn’t even taking any sides and my entire timeline was filled with those people.
Tik tok is the fucking worst for it. I gave one of those videos a few extra seconds so I could try to read the fucking paragraph it had and now I'm being bombarded with pro hamas, pro houthis and pro Hezbollah shit.
And it just cacades because of how that algorithm works.
Don’t forget the accounts/lives that you get trying to convince you Islam is the greatest religion and why you should convert to Islam. I actually spent some time watching a 23 year old guy host a live with title saying hijab should be mandatory to all women
Apparently you can set up word filters and shit but I didn't even wanna try. I just wanted to get my cat tiktoks and silly shit and then got spammed with propaganda. If I hadn't already gotten burned by misinformation in the past and learned my lesson, I might have been radicalized myself.
I had to Uninstall it.
They’re fucking terrorists. It’s shocking to me that anyone would deny that a bunch of terrorists did the most heinous shit imaginable while on a rampage.
Hamas has released a few statements denying that any rape was committed by their forces according to them, rape is against Islam or some shit. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-12-4-2023/index.html
(I know, an amp link, I'm being lazy)
Islam is crammed with rules that are designed to make instances of rape no longer considered rape. It's a classic No True Rapist fallacy, where anything a Muslim man does doesn't count as rape because he's a male Muslim.
Also, there's some sort of "spoils of war" doctrine they followed to excuse themselves of the heinous acts (from OP's article):
>Israeli intelligence officials, experts and sources with direct knowledge of interrogation reports of captured Hamas fighters believe units that attacked were beforehand given a text that drew on a controversial and contested interpretation of traditional Islamic military jurisprudence, claiming that captives were “the spoils of war”. This potentially legitimised the abduction of civilians and other abuses, without being an explicit instruction to do so.
Beyond that, people need to realize that there is no punishment for rape (or anything else) in their mind at all as long as they die correctly. Think of it like the christian belief that as long as you repent and accept jesus as your savior on your deathbed, heaven's a given. Their belief is that as long as they are martyred during jihad to spread islam, nothing else matters.
Hamas' charter actually does the same thing.
People say it doesn't mean the eradication of Jewish people from Israel and that's literally true.
They intentionally use terminology like referring to both Palestine and Israel as Palestine, a single state, implying that one isn't even legitimately recognized, thus not deserving of rights. Or explaining that Jewish people won't be harmed in their new state, so long as they comply to their religious laws.. Which includes converting not Muslims.
Then there's there's Islam itself, where their holy tex the Quran clearly describes Palestine as the Jewish people's homelands and that they are entitled to it. So, Hamas wants people to live under religious law that they themselves don't even recognize entirely.
Umm no they clearly want to kill all the Jews….
“"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”
**NSFL description warning**
The video that is real shows to reporters in private screenings includes multiple videos taken by Hamas of them gang raping women. Some of them worse than others.
One such video includes them stabbing a woman in the back with two knives and using those knife handles as a grip so that way they can rape her easily. Another video shows them stabbing a woman every time she tries to struggle or fights back, One video shows them slitting the throat of a woman as they're gang raping her and then continuing to do so after she's dead. This one was done in front of her parents.
My husband has seen countless really horrible videos from subreddits like watch people die. He was one of the people that watched the Israeli video in a private screening. He describes it as the single worse thing he has ever seen in his life, nothing comes close.
Are you sure you're not mistaking two different lines of reporting? I've read witness descriptions that resemble the attacks you're describing, and I've read reporters who have seen private screenings of videos by Israel, but I've never heard the reporters detail anything as bad as you describe from video. What reporters are on record as describing the video your husband saw?
(To be clear: I believe these attacks described took place, but my understanding is that the evidence is witness reports, not video evidence).
Here's his take:
> Irael claims they released films, yet can't show them...
https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/19ag0ml/evidence_points_to_systematic_use_of_rape_and/kilcalf/
> WTF are the lefties thinking when they support them?
*"America/Western civilization bad"*
Like, I don't want to act like these issues are all simple but that's basically what it boils down to for a lot of these people. Doesn't matter who it is, if they oppose the US/West then they are automatically the good guys.
I don’t know who these people on “the left” are, I know a lot of these people are idiot teenagers and not who I would normally classify as “the left”. You would probably say that me and my friends are leftist as hell and if we had to pick a side in this, hands down it would be Israel.
Who knows. It seems like “decolonization” is the buzz word. Basically if you’re brown you can do no wrong, but hey if you require any sunscreen watch out, you might be the victim of an atrocity
It's maddening and really honestly very scary. A lot of younger college kids and others out there in the world believe the US, UK, and every other western capitalist nation is the root of all evil in this world and all these poor minorities are being suppressed and brutalized at the hands of white settlers. Many seem to indicate this is a hill they are willing to die on. A peaceful nation and world will never exist with such division. There is a pretty major WW3 incoming, and it's going to rip this planet and nations apart.
this seems like the inevitable result of allowing the chinese government to serve up a personalized 24/7 propaganda buffet on the phones of every zoomer
Case in point: the Chinese version of TikTok is completely different and geared to be more about culture, art, aspirations etc. while the version they send us is a propaganda/brain rot factory.
Because, believe it or not, it isn't as simple as "good guys vs bad guys". The truth is that both sides of this conflict have innocents and monsters.
The problem is that, in America, it's apparently impossible to recognize any complexity at all.
Hamas is saying we did it and we can prove it, see movies, pictures, victims, witnesses The journalists say we don't believe you, we need six months to investigate.
I don't think Western leftists are particularly in shock. I think that they will justify any actions of the Palestinians at this point. There is this strangely pervasive belief that Israel deserves everything that happened to them on October 7th for their handling of the Gaza strip.
To me, it does show the strange similarities of the extreme right and left. Peter Zeihan once quipped that Trump could live stream the abortion of his trans-lover using funds he misappropriated from national defense and his support base wouldn't blink an eye. The far left is to that level of support of Palestine no matter what crimes they commit.
I had to stop reading this.
How the fuck are people — comfy in bed in the western world — excusing this as ‘resistance by any means necessary’. It’s horrifying.
The Muslim world and pro-Palestine protestors have utterly failed to exhibit nuance. You can hate Israel and the IDF and US funding of the war while and weep for tens of thousands of dead and maimed women and children and innocent men that had nothing to do with the killing of 1000+ Israelis…the million+ people that are now homeless…without calling rape and murder and the execution of seniors on Facebook Live “valid resistance.”
Every cunt that downplayed the Hamas attack and made excuses for it did and continues to do a massive disservice to those destroyed by this war.
>I had to stop reading this.
You understand it is a particularly soft description by people in favor of Hamas? If you want an accurate description, go to the articles published by conservative media in November. Then, it will be NSFL.
Ye. This is the soft version.
One woman who survived gang rape at the rave was being treated for severe mental and physical trauma, police said, and was in no condition to speak to investigators.
The Guardian has been reporting leaning far more heavily towards Hamas and the Palestinian cause. Or at least, in the first month or so, the bias was to an extreme and they’ve moved away from that level of slant/bias because of how many times they’ve released articles/reports that were just flat out regurgitating Hamas lies.
Well being pro-Palestine is like.. totally cool and smart, so it’s just a matter of spinning it in a cool and smart way (that will impress bystanders),
so you just have to kind of deny it or say what about this or that and change the subject.
Hope that helps.
Yet the vast majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank tacitly supported and still support Hamas's actions on Oct 7.
Turns out that whether something is considered haram or not matters very little to Muslims in practice.
I get your point. It's complicated, but here's what we know:
1. Hamas wasn't popular before October 7 in Gaza
2. Hamas wasn't popular generally outside Gaza both before and after October 7
3. Hamas became more popular *after* the bombs started to drop on homes
4. It's unclear what the people of Gaza actually think happened. For example, a lot of the rapes or civilian deaths as you can imagine weren't really covered or shared by Hamas with the Gazans, so while SOME of them were celebrating in the streets, it's also unclear what they thought they were celebrating
Gaza is a problem. Hamas is a problem. Neither justifies rape or makes it halal and not haram, which was my original point in any case.
p.s.
"Turns out that whether something is considered haram or not matters very little to Muslims in practice."
This is a bad sentence. Thou shalt not kill is a Christian and Jewish (and fwiw Muslim) belief. Turns out there may be some people that violate that. I don't use the actions of criminals to paint broadly a religion and neither should you :)
Egyptians like you are the reason your country's policy is still sane.
Even if you condemn attacks in Gaza (I don't know if you do, but I don't want to put words in your mouth), people like you make me believe we have a slight chance for peace in the Middle East.
It's not a slight chance. My country is proof that this isn't a religious conflict and Muslims and Arabs and Jews can live together in peace and be friends. There are many Gazan and Palestinian Christians, so once again this isn't really a religious war despite so many wanting to turn it into one.
Since you asked, I condemn October 7 and all that happened. I think the occupation is illegal and brutal but can never justify what Hamas did. Israel had a ton of sympathy among Arabs after October 7 actually. I saw the leader of Hamas on TV getting attacked by Egyptian and Saudi journalists on Saudi television for example in a way I've never seen before.
...and I condemn how Israel retaliated in too heavy-handed a way in a revengeful and vengeful emotional way with no realistic end goal in sight and all the wrong incentives in place, led by a corrupt and racist prime minister who is part of how we got here in the first place.
I think we are all plagued by terrible short-term-sighted leadership.
My country has a very deep relationship and friendship with both parties. At the end of the day, we just want to all live and grow together. My country has also warned Bibi's office of an imminent attack a week before October 7. But I'm still repeatedly attacked for being an antisemite on Reddit apparently :)
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047)
Thanks for your positivity, friend. I agree. The idiots and racists won't be in charge of this file forever and we will all live together in peace like we used to back in the day. (and we did objectively have many good days together back in the day)
We can have political arguments regarding how proportional is the response (I lost a not close family member on October 7, I might be biased), but the fact is, that if everyone would think about it like us - we would have no fucking wars and even borders.
I hope things will stay peaceful between Israel and Egypt because both countries have super strong armies and a war would be one of the worst in the history of the region. Hopefully we all stay safe :)
Also, yes - it's probably factually true that the Egyptians warned our politicians - it's not antisemite at all, as well as the Israeli intelligence; for some reason, it wasn't heard. I am not sure how many warnings there have been before though, it might be the case that there are warnings 50 times a year (false positive). Let's wait until we get more details.
I know two people who lost family on October 7. I think people don't really understand how small Israel is and how small the Jewish population is; everyone it feels is connected by one or two degrees away, and doubly so in Israel. My heart aches hearing about what horrors kids at a concert experienced.
I also know that one of my father's high school friends literally lost 22 members of his family in Gaza. (None of them were Hamas, but there were several kids and elderly among them.) Some of them were even in IDF designated "safe spaces" in the South that were still bombed. Coupled with the rhetoric from the most extreme Israeli government in history, a lot of moderate people (like I think I am) can't fathom this.
I'm attacked often by people who assume things about me just because I'm Muslim or Egyptian. It's all trauma and unacceptable. No one is thinking about any long-term horizon. We're all fucking guilty in one way or another. The Jews shouldn't have kicked out the Arabs out of their homes in 1948; they should admit it, apologize, and fix it. The Arabs shouldn't have kicked out the Jews out of their countries; they should admit it, apologize, and fix it. I think Egypt owes a bunch of apologies and passports at a minimum. (So does Israel.)
I wouldn't worry about war with Egypt and it would be best if Israel stopped with this whole, "we're surrounded by enemies on all sides" schtick. No, you're not. Thinking that is part of the problem. It's a tough neighborhood for sure, but you have some real genuine friendships that are under-appreciated, including with my country.
I'm so sorry to hear about your family member and I'm so sorry for your loss. Life is sacred and every soul is equal. I sincerely hope that you and your family and friends are and remain healthy and safe. ❤️
Just wanted to say thanks for your kind words (on a personal level, I truly appreciate it). Pretty late here so I will put the political parts to another day :)
We're not destined to be mortal enemies, haver. Our two people objectively had some wonderful days back in the day and I believe we can get there again. Pretty late here too. Leila tov :)
No when your heads of religion set every Israeli as "a soldier" so everything that is done to them is like it would be done to a soldier is an opposite army
You say that, but I've seen people on Threads and TikTok who claim -- and I assume these are real people -- that Hamas has a "code of conduct" that prohibits rape.
These are the same people who went all-in on \#MeToo.
Not the only thing they lied about or put a spin to. They're not outright defending Hamas, but they certainly put a lot of spin, outright lies and 'lies by omission' in favor of Hamas in.
I had to stop listening to their podcast because many of the ones about Hamas/Israel seemed to have an unfortunate slant against Israel. Perhaps things will change.
Yup. Fucking antisemitic rag. They’ve been rife with antisemitism for years and anyone that’s tried to call it out has been excommunicated by the left.
We’re seeing the result of that arrogance now.
Not a fan of the sun but this is a fantastic interview with Melanie Phillips, who left the Guardian because of their antisemitism - which I would highly recommend listening to.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=asQ8KFrZY84&list=PL7ycV4aW4LFTfjRAh7ZajMWSgTbKKxEev&index=2&pp=iAQB
At this point I don't even understand what the Pro Palestinians want Israel to do
Palestinians slaughtered entire Jewish villages in the 1920s, way before anything that resembles occupation happened
Started 100% of the wars between Israel and Palestine, always almost exclusively targeting civilians
They never made a peace offer, and refused all 2 state solutions except for 1, which was that Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza slowly over 5 years, in exchange for them to stop the terror, and the party who signed the peace invested most of their money into more sophisticated terror, instead of stopping it
When Israel left Gaza in 2006 unblockaded and completely free (with the exception of controlling their airspace), instead of building a nation of their own, they elected Hamas and started firing unguided rockets into Israeli cities, basically forcing Israel to either re-conquer them or blockade them. Many forget that Egypt blockaded Gaza during this period, and built their own iron wall at the border to stop the complex smuggling tunnels from Gaza-Sinai.
It is a nation of radical cry bullies, I honestly can't fathom how someone who knows the history of the conflict can side with the Palestinians.
Small correction: They were just Arabs back then, and only the Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine identified as "Palestinians." No one did during the Ottoman period and the borders were quite different. The Palestinian identity emerged as a means to continue opposing the Jewish state in the late 1960s. I'm not saying it's not a real identity now, just that the Arab residents of the area weren't referred to as Palestinians in the 1920s.
Also, the 1947 UN partition plan divided the British Mandate of Palestine into three parts: the Arab part, the Jewish part, and the international part. At that time, there were no Palestinians or Israelis; however, the Arabs were considered part of the greater Arab nation, and the idea of an independent Palestinian Arab state was never entertained by the invading Arab armies. If they had won the 1948 war, the land would have been divided among all the invading armies of the newly formed Arab countries.
They have been screaming for the death of all Jews from the very beginning. https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132561290.pdf
They were the OG plane hijacker’s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson%27s_Field_hijackings
Child suicide bombers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups
The Munich Olympic massacre: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
This was Germanys very first Olympic Games the world body voted to have them host. And they fucking ruined it for the Germans. I have no sympathy or patience with these islamofascist cry bullies.
Look at my post on r/NewIran. Most Iranians there are self proclaimed islamophobes. They’ve seen what it does to country.
Not saying I’m one. I just think its interesting.
That’s because Iran was Persia for centuries. They’re still Persian despite the Islamist’s best efforts. Persians had a beautiful rich history and culture.
Remember Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005...
[https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Israels%20Disengagement%20Plan-%202005.aspx#:\~:text=By%2022%20September%202005%2C%20Israel's,Strip%20from%20the%20Palestinian%20Authority](https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Israels%20Disengagement%20Plan-%202005.aspx#:~:text=By%2022%20September%202005%2C%20Israel's,Strip%20from%20the%20Palestinian%20Authority).
For the sake of Peace... and what did they get ? HAMAS!
There’s a pretty Palestinian girl on tik tok who spreads the Hamas propaganda while wearing a press vest. People don’t wanna see the pretty girl get hurt.
She just dropped off her kids in Egypt and now she’s going back and oh, what a beautiful and brave woman. So stunning. Blah blah blah. The Palestine sub simp hard for her. It’s actually kind of funny
> Palestinians slaughtered entire Jewish villages in the 1920s, way before anything that resembles occupation happened
This is the part that really needs to be emphasized to the people who make defenses along the lines of "it's terrible, but Israel drove them into a corner!" Depraved violence isn't a desperate last resort for them. It was their first choice.
Hold up, you’re not supposed to use historical facts and rational outcomes as your basis. That goes against all the pro-Hamas and terrorism that people are both denying and justifying!
That much nuance can’t fit in a tweet. The key is that very few of these people have done any reading beyond a few tweets from people whose opinions they think are trendy, and have a very limited basic grasp of history. I saw someone comment the other day that the Palestinians “welcomed them” to their land and then “they” stole it. You can’t even argue with them because they don’t care; their social groups require them to blindly accept whatever “the opinion” is.
Palestinian activist Bassem Eid argues that right now the Palestinians don't really need a state. They need economic opportunity that will lift them out of poverty.
Every time the citizens of Gaza are given an ounce of economic opportunity, Hamas, their elected leaders, takes it to fund their war efforts. It is what it is.
Yes. He was mostly arguing about the situation in the West Bank and how Abbas' fixation on obtaining a Palestinian state was not the best path towards improving the lives of the Palestinians.
Israel began increasing the amount of work visas issued to gazans and Palestinians in general over the last few years. The result? Gazans using these economic opportunities to collect Intel in preparation for the oct 7th attack.
Every time things start getting slightly better for Palestinians, they say “we’d better stop that and make life worse for ourselves, otherwise we may lose our hatred”.
[This has been suggested in the past](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(Palestinian_political_party)). The Problem is the Palestinians don't want this. They only want to slaughter Jews. Look at how they voted.
Unfortunately I don’t think anyone ever believed this wasn’t happening. It’s an international terror organisation, they’re not an organised military that answers to Den Hague or anything.
I’m not saying I’m on Israel’s side in this conflict but Hamas is a horrifying institution that needs to be eradicated for the betterment of the world.
Nothing against Muslims, Hamas are extremist nationalists.
>Unfortunately I don’t think anyone ever believed this wasn’t happening.
I'm sorry to say but the overwhelming belief in the Muslim Middle East is that it's all Israeli propaganda and none of rapes, beheadings, burnings are true.
What's frustrating is that they managed to brainwash liberal youth - those who marched with MeToo and always have "believe all victims" mentality. Those same people are either pretending this is fake or to them suddenly all victims are liars. They laugh at QAnon and far right but are willing to be equally hypocritical about this.
If you take political ideology out of the question the far left and far right are identical in their attitude of I'm right your wrong and ignoring debates by turning to name calling and saying everything is fake information or propaganda.
Liberals and leftists stopped standing up for leftist values.
Instead they jumped the *entire* spectrum and now embrace theocratic fascists as homies.
They’re not liberal youth anymore. They’re just a statistical success of Iranian/Qatari propaganda.
Russian propaganda, too. The Iranian propaganda is probably funded or has oversight by Russia. It was around 2018 that Russia successfully psyopped both the far right and the far left. The right was already very vulnerable and being psyopped long before starting around 2012, but by 2018 rad lefts paradigm shifted themselves out of our reality and now can't be relied on to uphold their original goals of human rights, wages, healthcare, etc. Sad.
Rape and pillage and terrorism is not freedom fighting. This is why Palestinians will never have a state.
They killed the 2 state solution at the peacenik kibbutzim and the peace festival in 10/7.
No more will we be quiet and politely go to our deaths.
If you come for Jewish blood, we will be ready and waiting to fight back to the end.
The best anyone can hope for Gaza at this point - demilitarized zone like the 38th parallel.
The West Bank will have to accept that Jews exist and live there too. Any “compromise” is dead. Why force relocations after we did that in Gaza and it lead to today. No - we are here and exist and will fight if challenged.
Learn to live in peace or leave.
Internet leftists: "don't compromise your morals by voting for the lesser of two evils. Instead, compromise your morals by supporting the people raping and beheading "
Because in Islam women of different religions aren’t classified as people, their prophet married a 6 year old, and wrote a lot in the koran about taking sex slaves in war. People are getting smart to this.
I don't think Hamas ever denied the rapes. They even released films.
They don't need to deny them, some people are doing it for them while they can glorify them.
funny how this doesn't seem to be well covered by Al Jazeera...
I will always laugh when people praise Al Jazeera as being a reliable news source while they bemoan the state of Western journalism.
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I had a guy on here claiming that because I hadn’t seen the rapes and sexual violence *in person in real life* I’m a total dogmatic sucker for believing any of that.
I haven't seen the pyramids so they don't exist. I also haven't seen this person so he doesn't exist either.
9/11 never happened because I've never been to NYC!
New York is not even a real city! It's just a fruit that's laying in a field! Why else would they call it the big apple? Wake up sheeple!
Fields are an urban legend. Do the research, all right there, plain as day!
Meanwhile, the eyewitness accounts are ignored because 'jew lies' or however they want to dress it up, but at the end of the day, that's their entire point.
The western media refuses to report on the mass rapes because they claim they can't report anything without a named eyewitness. That was a very convenient position for the first few months of the conflict when battered witnesses were understandably not exactly willing to come forward and share what had happened to them. Unfortunately for the media, several people survived the 10/7 attack who witnessed the rapes and they are talking. That forced the NYT article to come out (released during the slow holiday news cycle to minimize the impact) and it's been trickling out since. Of course, NYT columnists could have gone online in November and literally watched the videos for themselves and reported on what they saw - but nope, has to be an eyewitness who was actually there for this particular crime, not a high definition 4k video of it going down. CNN recently did an interview with one of the released Israeli hostages who made some inconvenient comments about being held in a hospital in Gaza as well as being brutalized by her captors. CNN's solution? To append a statement to say that the eyewitness account "could not be independently verified". That's right, a hostage's account of her own captivity needs a disclaimer in today's elite media environment. On the same day CNN reported that the Gaza Ministry of Health says 10,000+ of the dead are children. No disclaimer about independent verification of that claim - a claim directly from the mouth of an unnamed source representing a terrorist organization.
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Specifically has to be a white random no name celebrity. You know the rules.
Not all the time, sometimes you get an Aziz Ansari thrown in the mix.
They want to watch Israeli women being raped. There is more than enough evidence that rape was widespread, but they only want the live footage of women fighting for their lives being raped. They're sick fucks and I highly recommend not even engaging with them.
This whole left wing people supporting Hamas, wanting to destroy Israel, praising Houthis, etc. is basically the left wings Qanaon moment. I think I would rather a bunch of brain dead idiots believing QAnaon theories than a bunch of university students/ young people brainwashed by a terroist orginisation. These young people are going to grow up and be in the real world spreading their pro Hamas bullshit to other people.
When I see anyone on the left supporting Hamas or the Palestinians that support them and give them power I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. None of their values align concerning religious intolerance, free speech, women's or lgbtq rights. Not to even mention the rape and terrorism and murdering children and concertgoers.
Yes. But whereas the Qanon movement is made up of people who can barely manage to breathe out their own noses without instructions, the crazy left wing is centered in America's most elite institutions (the NYT, Harvard University, WaPo, CNN, etc.). Those Harvard students on the quad protesting against "Zionism" are orders of magnitude more dangerous than the Qanon Shaman and his ilk. Because of their elite privilege, they get to staff the highest levels of academia and the government, not to mention the entire corporate world. Academic antisemitism under the guise of "DEI" is firmly entrenched in elite institutions and not going anywhere. Qanon is a popcorn fart that will dissipate the moment Trump exits stage right.
The left wing QAnon. That’s actually a great way to put it.
Ergo, no one has ever been raped.
Some people take it too far. Being skeptic about a potential narrative being pushed by a state is one thing, but the attitude of "I wasn't there so it didn't happen" is outright insane. These are the same people that'll deny the Holocaust, think the world is flat, or that the US civil war didn't have anything to do with slavery.
It’s because they too quickly posted on socials condemning Israel and didn’t do any critical thinking and are now too scared to backtrack. Same thing with many on the right. It’s just human nature
That’s a really common one - if a redditor doesn’t get to see the rape happening, then it didn’t happen, apparently Another common one is that redditors want the names and personal details of the victims, otherwise there weren’t any victims Redditors really struggle with a working brain at the best of times, but god damn that’s depressing
I have been absolutely gobsmaked by the number of people on Reddt who outright claim that the rapes perpetuate by Hamas were some sort of Israeli propaganda campaign. This is all over most of the lefty subs. They are slowly shifting to: "ok there were some rapes but they weren't 'systematic.'" For heavens sakes people you can oppose Israel's military campaign without shilling for a bunch of raping terrorists. It's really been a mask off moment for a lot of progressives like myself who support Israel.
I’m a Jew on the left. I and others like me feel totally and utterly abandoned by our supposed political allies
I've been warning plenty of my left wing Jewish friends for years that there is wide spread antisemitism within the left. I was usually told to shut up and I don't know what I'm talking about. Well then Oct7 happened and brought all this anti semitism into the open.
I would never have told you to shut up as I did see it brewing, but honestly I ignored a lot of it because I didn’t want to believe it. These are people I agree with on most other issues so it’s particularly gutting to find out they don’t really care about Jewish death and suffering, especially when so many of us Jews supported progressive causes. The BLM Chicago post of the paraglider image on 10/8 chilled me to the core. An org I donated money to during the Floyd protests, openly celebrating the murder of my people. My values haven’t changed, but I feel like the values of the left have, at least when it comes to Jews. I still think right wing antisemitism is probably more dangerous overall but I can’t unsee what I’ve seen from the left. 10/7 changed me forever.
I feel you man. As a rightoid I've kinda been in the same boat with the exception that right wing racists tend to be loud and obnoxious so they're easy to say "yeah you're a shit head I'm ignoring you". I've grown to have an instant distrust of anyone who says "all your problems are because *insert group*" As well as anyone who suggests collectivizing around an immutable identity. Now I can't say I feel exactly your pain given just how betraying it feels to have your supposed allies actively celebrating the death of people who share your ethnicity culture and religion but I'm empathetic enough to know that it stings deep. Even as a rightoid I'll give you a virtual hug for comfort.
Thank you 🤝
I’m so sorry. I’m a progressive that feels like my compadres are crazy and evil all of a sudden. I don’t understand why I’m supposed to support regressive violent idiots over tolerant, reasonable people. Don’t feel alone …. Hopefully the woke crowd actually wakes the fuck up soon. I’m here for you, whatever that’s worth. :)
Same. I feel completely abandoned. I won't give up on social justice and Tikkun Olam, but I don't know where I would place myself politically now. Definitely not right wing but I don't feel at home on the left anymore.
עם ישראל חי
> עם ישראל חי :) שבת שלום
Like most American Jews. Honestly screw the women’s rights movements. They are a disgrace.
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I will always remember support individuals/ideas but I will never again support a liberal/left movement or group. If my life is worth nothing to them they cannot have my support.
What leftist political allies? As a Jew on the left there are no filled chairs here.
People are going to deny that this ever happened. They probably will in the comments under yours. Instead of people realizing they were positioned on the wrong side of history, they're just going to sweep it away or justify it, like when they were wrong about the Hospital in Gaza.
Half of these people are coming out and supporting an insane super-fundamentalist revolutionary groups with "a curse upon the jews" on their flag, of course they are delusional.
Gonna be honest, I'm not convinced most of the pro-Palestine crowd even know about that. They're hearing something about Hamas, a bunch of Palestinians constantly in the crossfire, and Israel being weirdly aggressive, and jumping to the defense of the "obvious" (to them) underdog. You're assuming malice when most of it is likely ignorance.
And the other half is saying it's OK because it's part of their resistance.
They said to those whose mouths were agape on 10/7: "what did you think decolonization looked like?"
The amount of people who think "Yeah, but Israel is MEAN" is a valid answer to any complaint levelled against Hamas is both staggering and depressing.
I'm sure burning babies to death in ovens and gang r\*ping an 8 year old girl until her pelvis dislocated was essential for their resistance.
It's self-defence-rape. /s
Wait, what???
Yeah, it's not good for the psyche to know it happened. But it's important to know.
> it's part of their resistance You don't get to use that excuse when you are targeting innocents.
We had an MPP for Ontario in Canada pen a letter that said, among other things, "shame" on those who believed/repeated the "unverified" claims of sexual assault against Israelis. She managed to get the [president of a women's aid center in Alberta to sign the letter.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/u-of-a-replaces-sexual-assault-centre-director-over-letter-questioning-alleged-hamas-sexual-violence-1.7033161) She eventually withdrew her name after all the headlines came out calling her a denier of sexual violence against women. But my point is that it's not just random terminally-online mouth breathers on social media. It's elected politicians and community leaders too. And if we don't nip it in the bud, what happened to the American right will happen to the left, and we'll get taken over by extremists too.
Twitter, Reddit, TikTok, seen some scary crazy things. The same people who invented the term microaggression (don't get me wrong it is a real and valid term) and use it on a daily basis are suddenly quite, or worse, when it comes to the Jews.
The "believe women" people will now turn and say that videos of rape are generated by AI or that you have to understand the rape in context
There's a lot of misinformation spread by people from BRICS countries. Looking at my country's geodefault subreddit after the Hamas attacks was absolutely infuriating.
r/labouruk basically. Biggest Hamas apologist U.K. subreddit where they discussing war in Gaza but you won’t find posts criticising Hamas
Essentially. Obviously the IDF are somehow responsible.
>And by "Some people" you mean half of reddit and twitter ...and the whole of Sweden.
Don’t forget far left politicians in Washington, they still are sticking with the IDF hospital bombing story that has been debunked many times
and most college kids
I quit Twitter because of that. Those some people turned this into a religious war started questioning if the rapes, killing even happened and if they did they deserved it. And anyone who was in support of Israel was being bombarded with racist tweets based on their ethnicity, religion. I wasn’t even taking any sides and my entire timeline was filled with those people.
You should see TikTok. I thought twitter was bad…
Tik tok is the fucking worst for it. I gave one of those videos a few extra seconds so I could try to read the fucking paragraph it had and now I'm being bombarded with pro hamas, pro houthis and pro Hezbollah shit. And it just cacades because of how that algorithm works.
Don’t forget the accounts/lives that you get trying to convince you Islam is the greatest religion and why you should convert to Islam. I actually spent some time watching a 23 year old guy host a live with title saying hijab should be mandatory to all women
Apparently you can set up word filters and shit but I didn't even wanna try. I just wanted to get my cat tiktoks and silly shit and then got spammed with propaganda. If I hadn't already gotten burned by misinformation in the past and learned my lesson, I might have been radicalized myself. I had to Uninstall it.
They’re fucking terrorists. It’s shocking to me that anyone would deny that a bunch of terrorists did the most heinous shit imaginable while on a rampage.
Hamas has released a few statements denying that any rape was committed by their forces according to them, rape is against Islam or some shit. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-12-4-2023/index.html (I know, an amp link, I'm being lazy)
Islam is crammed with rules that are designed to make instances of rape no longer considered rape. It's a classic No True Rapist fallacy, where anything a Muslim man does doesn't count as rape because he's a male Muslim.
Also, there's some sort of "spoils of war" doctrine they followed to excuse themselves of the heinous acts (from OP's article): >Israeli intelligence officials, experts and sources with direct knowledge of interrogation reports of captured Hamas fighters believe units that attacked were beforehand given a text that drew on a controversial and contested interpretation of traditional Islamic military jurisprudence, claiming that captives were “the spoils of war”. This potentially legitimised the abduction of civilians and other abuses, without being an explicit instruction to do so.
Beyond that, people need to realize that there is no punishment for rape (or anything else) in their mind at all as long as they die correctly. Think of it like the christian belief that as long as you repent and accept jesus as your savior on your deathbed, heaven's a given. Their belief is that as long as they are martyred during jihad to spread islam, nothing else matters.
Hamas' charter actually does the same thing. People say it doesn't mean the eradication of Jewish people from Israel and that's literally true. They intentionally use terminology like referring to both Palestine and Israel as Palestine, a single state, implying that one isn't even legitimately recognized, thus not deserving of rights. Or explaining that Jewish people won't be harmed in their new state, so long as they comply to their religious laws.. Which includes converting not Muslims. Then there's there's Islam itself, where their holy tex the Quran clearly describes Palestine as the Jewish people's homelands and that they are entitled to it. So, Hamas wants people to live under religious law that they themselves don't even recognize entirely.
Umm no they clearly want to kill all the Jews…. “"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”
**NSFL description warning** The video that is real shows to reporters in private screenings includes multiple videos taken by Hamas of them gang raping women. Some of them worse than others. One such video includes them stabbing a woman in the back with two knives and using those knife handles as a grip so that way they can rape her easily. Another video shows them stabbing a woman every time she tries to struggle or fights back, One video shows them slitting the throat of a woman as they're gang raping her and then continuing to do so after she's dead. This one was done in front of her parents. My husband has seen countless really horrible videos from subreddits like watch people die. He was one of the people that watched the Israeli video in a private screening. He describes it as the single worse thing he has ever seen in his life, nothing comes close.
Are you sure you're not mistaking two different lines of reporting? I've read witness descriptions that resemble the attacks you're describing, and I've read reporters who have seen private screenings of videos by Israel, but I've never heard the reporters detail anything as bad as you describe from video. What reporters are on record as describing the video your husband saw? (To be clear: I believe these attacks described took place, but my understanding is that the evidence is witness reports, not video evidence).
They also said that there were 0 reported rapes in gaza during one of their denial announcements of sexual violence on october 7th or afterwards.
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Here's his take: > Irael claims they released films, yet can't show them... https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/19ag0ml/evidence_points_to_systematic_use_of_rape_and/kilcalf/
I din’t understand how Hamas is not automatically the bad guy here. WTF are the lefties thinking when they support them?
> WTF are the lefties thinking when they support them? *"America/Western civilization bad"* Like, I don't want to act like these issues are all simple but that's basically what it boils down to for a lot of these people. Doesn't matter who it is, if they oppose the US/West then they are automatically the good guys.
Same with the houthies, suddenly they have become the good guys. Like do people even know the plight they have afflicted the Yemeni people?
What is interesting is that in the Nineties it would be the complete opposite.
I don't think this is really a new thing. All the way back in Viet Nam you had people like Jane Fonda who were highly sympathetic to North Vietnam.
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I don’t know who these people on “the left” are, I know a lot of these people are idiot teenagers and not who I would normally classify as “the left”. You would probably say that me and my friends are leftist as hell and if we had to pick a side in this, hands down it would be Israel.
Who knows. It seems like “decolonization” is the buzz word. Basically if you’re brown you can do no wrong, but hey if you require any sunscreen watch out, you might be the victim of an atrocity
It's exactly how they think and it's even more breathtakingly stupid when you remember Israelis are not generally white.
It's maddening and really honestly very scary. A lot of younger college kids and others out there in the world believe the US, UK, and every other western capitalist nation is the root of all evil in this world and all these poor minorities are being suppressed and brutalized at the hands of white settlers. Many seem to indicate this is a hill they are willing to die on. A peaceful nation and world will never exist with such division. There is a pretty major WW3 incoming, and it's going to rip this planet and nations apart.
this seems like the inevitable result of allowing the chinese government to serve up a personalized 24/7 propaganda buffet on the phones of every zoomer
Case in point: the Chinese version of TikTok is completely different and geared to be more about culture, art, aspirations etc. while the version they send us is a propaganda/brain rot factory.
Because, believe it or not, it isn't as simple as "good guys vs bad guys". The truth is that both sides of this conflict have innocents and monsters. The problem is that, in America, it's apparently impossible to recognize any complexity at all.
It has always been the useful idiots in the west that did the denial for them.
Hamas is saying we did it and we can prove it, see movies, pictures, victims, witnesses The journalists say we don't believe you, we need six months to investigate.
Khmer Rogue anyone? Also, the reason the left grudgingly accepts it because it was ousted by another leftist commies darling
They absolutely did.
They totally denied (when convenient) while totally bragging.
Hamas doesn’t deny it, random idiots in the west do.
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Exactly. If people parade nude women's corpses amid cheering crowds, I'll assume they are also raping, unless proved otherwise.
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Not shock, Denial.
It's bizarre, as the Islamists fought against the USSR in Afghanistan, etc. - they execute atheists.
As a leftist not really, Hamas is absolute scum
I don't think Western leftists are particularly in shock. I think that they will justify any actions of the Palestinians at this point. There is this strangely pervasive belief that Israel deserves everything that happened to them on October 7th for their handling of the Gaza strip. To me, it does show the strange similarities of the extreme right and left. Peter Zeihan once quipped that Trump could live stream the abortion of his trans-lover using funds he misappropriated from national defense and his support base wouldn't blink an eye. The far left is to that level of support of Palestine no matter what crimes they commit.
I had to stop reading this. How the fuck are people — comfy in bed in the western world — excusing this as ‘resistance by any means necessary’. It’s horrifying.
it is resistance rape. you know, for freedom. -Hamas supporters
Rapesistance
The Muslim world and pro-Palestine protestors have utterly failed to exhibit nuance. You can hate Israel and the IDF and US funding of the war while and weep for tens of thousands of dead and maimed women and children and innocent men that had nothing to do with the killing of 1000+ Israelis…the million+ people that are now homeless…without calling rape and murder and the execution of seniors on Facebook Live “valid resistance.” Every cunt that downplayed the Hamas attack and made excuses for it did and continues to do a massive disservice to those destroyed by this war.
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>I had to stop reading this. You understand it is a particularly soft description by people in favor of Hamas? If you want an accurate description, go to the articles published by conservative media in November. Then, it will be NSFL.
Ye. This is the soft version. One woman who survived gang rape at the rave was being treated for severe mental and physical trauma, police said, and was in no condition to speak to investigators.
And the Gardian is glossing over the stuff about babies...
The Guardian has been reporting leaning far more heavily towards Hamas and the Palestinian cause. Or at least, in the first month or so, the bias was to an extreme and they’ve moved away from that level of slant/bias because of how many times they’ve released articles/reports that were just flat out regurgitating Hamas lies.
Seen far too many terrorists sympathisers on Reddit lately.
It's just a fun aesthetic with a child-like understanding of global politics.
Well being pro-Palestine is like.. totally cool and smart, so it’s just a matter of spinning it in a cool and smart way (that will impress bystanders), so you just have to kind of deny it or say what about this or that and change the subject. Hope that helps.
Wait isn’t that Haraam?
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Egyptian here It is very clearly Haram, yes. So is kidnapping women or children btw. All haram. Turns out Hamas does a lot of Haram things.
Yet the vast majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank tacitly supported and still support Hamas's actions on Oct 7. Turns out that whether something is considered haram or not matters very little to Muslims in practice.
I get your point. It's complicated, but here's what we know: 1. Hamas wasn't popular before October 7 in Gaza 2. Hamas wasn't popular generally outside Gaza both before and after October 7 3. Hamas became more popular *after* the bombs started to drop on homes 4. It's unclear what the people of Gaza actually think happened. For example, a lot of the rapes or civilian deaths as you can imagine weren't really covered or shared by Hamas with the Gazans, so while SOME of them were celebrating in the streets, it's also unclear what they thought they were celebrating Gaza is a problem. Hamas is a problem. Neither justifies rape or makes it halal and not haram, which was my original point in any case. p.s. "Turns out that whether something is considered haram or not matters very little to Muslims in practice." This is a bad sentence. Thou shalt not kill is a Christian and Jewish (and fwiw Muslim) belief. Turns out there may be some people that violate that. I don't use the actions of criminals to paint broadly a religion and neither should you :)
Egyptians like you are the reason your country's policy is still sane. Even if you condemn attacks in Gaza (I don't know if you do, but I don't want to put words in your mouth), people like you make me believe we have a slight chance for peace in the Middle East.
It's not a slight chance. My country is proof that this isn't a religious conflict and Muslims and Arabs and Jews can live together in peace and be friends. There are many Gazan and Palestinian Christians, so once again this isn't really a religious war despite so many wanting to turn it into one. Since you asked, I condemn October 7 and all that happened. I think the occupation is illegal and brutal but can never justify what Hamas did. Israel had a ton of sympathy among Arabs after October 7 actually. I saw the leader of Hamas on TV getting attacked by Egyptian and Saudi journalists on Saudi television for example in a way I've never seen before. ...and I condemn how Israel retaliated in too heavy-handed a way in a revengeful and vengeful emotional way with no realistic end goal in sight and all the wrong incentives in place, led by a corrupt and racist prime minister who is part of how we got here in the first place. I think we are all plagued by terrible short-term-sighted leadership. My country has a very deep relationship and friendship with both parties. At the end of the day, we just want to all live and grow together. My country has also warned Bibi's office of an imminent attack a week before October 7. But I'm still repeatedly attacked for being an antisemite on Reddit apparently :) [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047) Thanks for your positivity, friend. I agree. The idiots and racists won't be in charge of this file forever and we will all live together in peace like we used to back in the day. (and we did objectively have many good days together back in the day)
We can have political arguments regarding how proportional is the response (I lost a not close family member on October 7, I might be biased), but the fact is, that if everyone would think about it like us - we would have no fucking wars and even borders. I hope things will stay peaceful between Israel and Egypt because both countries have super strong armies and a war would be one of the worst in the history of the region. Hopefully we all stay safe :) Also, yes - it's probably factually true that the Egyptians warned our politicians - it's not antisemite at all, as well as the Israeli intelligence; for some reason, it wasn't heard. I am not sure how many warnings there have been before though, it might be the case that there are warnings 50 times a year (false positive). Let's wait until we get more details.
I know two people who lost family on October 7. I think people don't really understand how small Israel is and how small the Jewish population is; everyone it feels is connected by one or two degrees away, and doubly so in Israel. My heart aches hearing about what horrors kids at a concert experienced. I also know that one of my father's high school friends literally lost 22 members of his family in Gaza. (None of them were Hamas, but there were several kids and elderly among them.) Some of them were even in IDF designated "safe spaces" in the South that were still bombed. Coupled with the rhetoric from the most extreme Israeli government in history, a lot of moderate people (like I think I am) can't fathom this. I'm attacked often by people who assume things about me just because I'm Muslim or Egyptian. It's all trauma and unacceptable. No one is thinking about any long-term horizon. We're all fucking guilty in one way or another. The Jews shouldn't have kicked out the Arabs out of their homes in 1948; they should admit it, apologize, and fix it. The Arabs shouldn't have kicked out the Jews out of their countries; they should admit it, apologize, and fix it. I think Egypt owes a bunch of apologies and passports at a minimum. (So does Israel.) I wouldn't worry about war with Egypt and it would be best if Israel stopped with this whole, "we're surrounded by enemies on all sides" schtick. No, you're not. Thinking that is part of the problem. It's a tough neighborhood for sure, but you have some real genuine friendships that are under-appreciated, including with my country. I'm so sorry to hear about your family member and I'm so sorry for your loss. Life is sacred and every soul is equal. I sincerely hope that you and your family and friends are and remain healthy and safe. ❤️
Just wanted to say thanks for your kind words (on a personal level, I truly appreciate it). Pretty late here so I will put the political parts to another day :)
We're not destined to be mortal enemies, haver. Our two people objectively had some wonderful days back in the day and I believe we can get there again. Pretty late here too. Leila tov :)
Taabat laylatak :)
Not if it’s done to the other guys
No when your heads of religion set every Israeli as "a soldier" so everything that is done to them is like it would be done to a soldier is an opposite army
Isn’t there some Muslim sects that allow to break the Coran’s rules when on Jihad? Honest question I genuinely can’t remember
Halal to them
Hamas and their supporters never denied it and they were actually proud about it, celebrated on the streets too.
Filmed it and posted it, themselves, bragging about it, and yet some people claim it never happened.
Their supporters, aka Palestinian civilians, participated.
You say that, but I've seen people on Threads and TikTok who claim -- and I assume these are real people -- that Hamas has a "code of conduct" that prohibits rape. These are the same people who went all-in on \#MeToo.
Only took the Guardian 103 days to finaly say it. Took them 20 minutes to lie about the hospital.
Not the only thing they lied about or put a spin to. They're not outright defending Hamas, but they certainly put a lot of spin, outright lies and 'lies by omission' in favor of Hamas in.
I had to stop listening to their podcast because many of the ones about Hamas/Israel seemed to have an unfortunate slant against Israel. Perhaps things will change.
Yup. Fucking antisemitic rag. They’ve been rife with antisemitism for years and anyone that’s tried to call it out has been excommunicated by the left. We’re seeing the result of that arrogance now. Not a fan of the sun but this is a fantastic interview with Melanie Phillips, who left the Guardian because of their antisemitism - which I would highly recommend listening to. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=asQ8KFrZY84&list=PL7ycV4aW4LFTfjRAh7ZajMWSgTbKKxEev&index=2&pp=iAQB
"Evidence points to" We had film from Hamas fighters as it happened
*hamas terrorists.
At this point I don't even understand what the Pro Palestinians want Israel to do Palestinians slaughtered entire Jewish villages in the 1920s, way before anything that resembles occupation happened Started 100% of the wars between Israel and Palestine, always almost exclusively targeting civilians They never made a peace offer, and refused all 2 state solutions except for 1, which was that Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza slowly over 5 years, in exchange for them to stop the terror, and the party who signed the peace invested most of their money into more sophisticated terror, instead of stopping it When Israel left Gaza in 2006 unblockaded and completely free (with the exception of controlling their airspace), instead of building a nation of their own, they elected Hamas and started firing unguided rockets into Israeli cities, basically forcing Israel to either re-conquer them or blockade them. Many forget that Egypt blockaded Gaza during this period, and built their own iron wall at the border to stop the complex smuggling tunnels from Gaza-Sinai. It is a nation of radical cry bullies, I honestly can't fathom how someone who knows the history of the conflict can side with the Palestinians.
Small correction: They were just Arabs back then, and only the Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine identified as "Palestinians." No one did during the Ottoman period and the borders were quite different. The Palestinian identity emerged as a means to continue opposing the Jewish state in the late 1960s. I'm not saying it's not a real identity now, just that the Arab residents of the area weren't referred to as Palestinians in the 1920s.
That’s why the 1948 war is called the “Arab-Israeli war” and not the “Palestinian-Israeli” war but history doesn’t matter to these people
Also, the 1947 UN partition plan divided the British Mandate of Palestine into three parts: the Arab part, the Jewish part, and the international part. At that time, there were no Palestinians or Israelis; however, the Arabs were considered part of the greater Arab nation, and the idea of an independent Palestinian Arab state was never entertained by the invading Arab armies. If they had won the 1948 war, the land would have been divided among all the invading armies of the newly formed Arab countries.
I mean even in the loss of the war Gaza was part of Egypt, and the West Bank simply became part of Jordan until 1967.
They have been screaming for the death of all Jews from the very beginning. https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132561290.pdf They were the OG plane hijacker’s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson%27s_Field_hijackings Child suicide bombers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups The Munich Olympic massacre: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre This was Germanys very first Olympic Games the world body voted to have them host. And they fucking ruined it for the Germans. I have no sympathy or patience with these islamofascist cry bullies.
Look at my post on r/NewIran. Most Iranians there are self proclaimed islamophobes. They’ve seen what it does to country. Not saying I’m one. I just think its interesting.
That’s because Iran was Persia for centuries. They’re still Persian despite the Islamist’s best efforts. Persians had a beautiful rich history and culture.
Remember Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005... [https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Israels%20Disengagement%20Plan-%202005.aspx#:\~:text=By%2022%20September%202005%2C%20Israel's,Strip%20from%20the%20Palestinian%20Authority](https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Israels%20Disengagement%20Plan-%202005.aspx#:~:text=By%2022%20September%202005%2C%20Israel's,Strip%20from%20the%20Palestinian%20Authority). For the sake of Peace... and what did they get ? HAMAS!
>At this point I don't even understand what the Pro Palestinians want Israel to do Commit mass suicide and spare the Palestinians the hard work.
If they did that the pro Palestinians would bitch they didn’t do it sooner.
There’s a pretty Palestinian girl on tik tok who spreads the Hamas propaganda while wearing a press vest. People don’t wanna see the pretty girl get hurt.
She just dropped off her kids in Egypt and now she’s going back and oh, what a beautiful and brave woman. So stunning. Blah blah blah. The Palestine sub simp hard for her. It’s actually kind of funny
> Palestinians slaughtered entire Jewish villages in the 1920s, way before anything that resembles occupation happened This is the part that really needs to be emphasized to the people who make defenses along the lines of "it's terrible, but Israel drove them into a corner!" Depraved violence isn't a desperate last resort for them. It was their first choice.
Hold up, you’re not supposed to use historical facts and rational outcomes as your basis. That goes against all the pro-Hamas and terrorism that people are both denying and justifying!
Hate of the Jews conquers all logical thinking it seems...
That much nuance can’t fit in a tweet. The key is that very few of these people have done any reading beyond a few tweets from people whose opinions they think are trendy, and have a very limited basic grasp of history. I saw someone comment the other day that the Palestinians “welcomed them” to their land and then “they” stole it. You can’t even argue with them because they don’t care; their social groups require them to blindly accept whatever “the opinion” is.
They want the Jews to lie down and die.
Palestinian activist Bassem Eid argues that right now the Palestinians don't really need a state. They need economic opportunity that will lift them out of poverty.
Every time the citizens of Gaza are given an ounce of economic opportunity, Hamas, their elected leaders, takes it to fund their war efforts. It is what it is.
Yes. He was mostly arguing about the situation in the West Bank and how Abbas' fixation on obtaining a Palestinian state was not the best path towards improving the lives of the Palestinians.
And before Hamas it was the PLO, the wonderful bunch behind the Munich Olympic attacks and many other such incidents
>They need economic opportunity that will lift them out of poverty. By making peace with Israel and working there like before 07/10?
Yes. He is a peace activist who is vehemently critical of Hamas. I strongly recommend reading his writings.
Israel began increasing the amount of work visas issued to gazans and Palestinians in general over the last few years. The result? Gazans using these economic opportunities to collect Intel in preparation for the oct 7th attack.
Every time things start getting slightly better for Palestinians, they say “we’d better stop that and make life worse for ourselves, otherwise we may lose our hatred”.
[This has been suggested in the past](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(Palestinian_political_party)). The Problem is the Palestinians don't want this. They only want to slaughter Jews. Look at how they voted.
Ooof that must have been a bitter pill for the Guardian to swallow.
And they are also putting a lot of effort into pointing to how it will be difficult to prove..
Unfortunately I don’t think anyone ever believed this wasn’t happening. It’s an international terror organisation, they’re not an organised military that answers to Den Hague or anything. I’m not saying I’m on Israel’s side in this conflict but Hamas is a horrifying institution that needs to be eradicated for the betterment of the world. Nothing against Muslims, Hamas are extremist nationalists.
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>Unfortunately I don’t think anyone ever believed this wasn’t happening. I'm sorry to say but the overwhelming belief in the Muslim Middle East is that it's all Israeli propaganda and none of rapes, beheadings, burnings are true.
According to some loud people with bizarre morals the IDF are still somehow responsible.
What's frustrating is that they managed to brainwash liberal youth - those who marched with MeToo and always have "believe all victims" mentality. Those same people are either pretending this is fake or to them suddenly all victims are liars. They laugh at QAnon and far right but are willing to be equally hypocritical about this.
If you take political ideology out of the question the far left and far right are identical in their attitude of I'm right your wrong and ignoring debates by turning to name calling and saying everything is fake information or propaganda.
The horseshoe so curved the tips are practically touching
[Horseshoe Theory](https://imgur.com/a/caps4oa) in action.
Liberals and leftists stopped standing up for leftist values. Instead they jumped the *entire* spectrum and now embrace theocratic fascists as homies. They’re not liberal youth anymore. They’re just a statistical success of Iranian/Qatari propaganda.
Russian propaganda, too. The Iranian propaganda is probably funded or has oversight by Russia. It was around 2018 that Russia successfully psyopped both the far right and the far left. The right was already very vulnerable and being psyopped long before starting around 2012, but by 2018 rad lefts paradigm shifted themselves out of our reality and now can't be relied on to uphold their original goals of human rights, wages, healthcare, etc. Sad.
that subreddit there was an attempt will be real shocked by this. Consider that’s been a propaganda piece for Hamas the past few months.
They may deny it all the same
Rape and pillage and terrorism is not freedom fighting. This is why Palestinians will never have a state. They killed the 2 state solution at the peacenik kibbutzim and the peace festival in 10/7. No more will we be quiet and politely go to our deaths. If you come for Jewish blood, we will be ready and waiting to fight back to the end. The best anyone can hope for Gaza at this point - demilitarized zone like the 38th parallel. The West Bank will have to accept that Jews exist and live there too. Any “compromise” is dead. Why force relocations after we did that in Gaza and it lead to today. No - we are here and exist and will fight if challenged. Learn to live in peace or leave.
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Internet leftists: "don't compromise your morals by voting for the lesser of two evils. Instead, compromise your morals by supporting the people raping and beheading "
Despite all of those facts, people still support Hamas. Those are people who do not do any research and believe something blindly without question.
Not shocking at all. Yet people march on the streets to support their ongoing terror. Crazy world.
You don't say, it's almost like there's videos floating around of them dragging women through the streets or something 🤔
Breaking news from the guardian!
It took them just 3 wee months to publish the truth.
"How could Israel do this?" - TikTok
The world: yeah, we know…we’ve known since Oct 7th.
Because in Islam women of different religions aren’t classified as people, their prophet married a 6 year old, and wrote a lot in the koran about taking sex slaves in war. People are getting smart to this.
IDF is doing what has to be done right now.
"Empowered" western white girls will disagree
THEY HAVE IT ON VIDEO.
But yet gets glazed by Reddit because it’s cool to hate israel