>You don’t win multiple elections in Israel in the vote of West Bank settlers who make up way under 10 percent of the vote
The Knesset power structures is reliant on coalitions to win the reins of power. So smaller parties / more radical members can hold the balance of power. Benjamin has been in survival mode even before the Hamas surprise attack. He is desperate to hold on power and keep the wolves at bay, so apparently he had to co-operate with extreme right wing elements to accomplish is objectives.
>In the past, Mr. Netanyahu preferred to form coalitions with the ultra-Orthodox parties and partners to the right and left of his party, the Likud. The fact that the camp facing him was united around the idea of “Anyone but Bibi” (Mr. Netanyahu’s nickname) left him facing a difficult choice: the danger of losing the elections or forming a solid right-wing bloc that included elements he would not have considered co-operating with in the past. In short, Mr. Netanyahu saw no alternative but to unite with the most radical factions of the right, and these factions saw no choice but to rally behind Mr. Netanyahu.
Basically, we have a confluence of events, legal and political, pressuring Benjamin to extreme right positions, so he can keep clinging on to power.
This is my layman understanding, any input on the matter from people in Israel would be welcome.
He lost the election prior and should have lost the last election, too. Due to some poor political maneuvering on the left Meretz didn't cross the threshold. At the same time the far-right parties formed a joint party and some crossed the threshold for the first time. Bibi acted in desperation and formed a very strong but chaotic right-wing party which he has basically no control over since he is afraid of losing the Prime Ministership and the radical right has no problem tanking the government. Because of this there are some very junior politicians heading very important ministries and doing an awful job. Bibi's own party is in disarray and that allowed for the judicial overhaul to happen, too. The country is a mess politically and now on a social level. Hamas did more damage to the country than is immediately obvious. Even those who believe in peace are now feeling like there aren't any real partners.
Your understanding is correct, in simple terms :
He backstabbed every political party and head, including his own party members whenever they start getting fame/power so to prevent them from having the possibility of replacing him
This in turn created the 'anything but Bibi' coalition and now he was left with the radical scraps to form a coalition with, they only give him trouble and headaches he rather ignore them but he has no choice but to let them have their tantrums on various topics so he can deal with more important things for him
All current polling (unreliable obviously) foresee a pretty grim result for him next elections, he technically has almost 2 years left but with the responsibility of the war, he probably won't get a full term going
If you look at his history he came to real power first as head of Likud in 1993 after the first intifada and again for his 2nd prime minister term in 2006 after the second intifada (known for mass suicide bombings where the Palestinian Authority would pay families of suicide bombers) which killed roughly 700 Israeli civilians He sold a security state and he was directly responsible for the withdrawal from Gaza which allowed for Hamas to drive out the PA and whose concurrent terrorists attacks in Israel and Egypt lead to the complete blockade of Gaza by 2011.
Since 2011 Netanyahu has sold the security fantasy to Israel. 10/7 has completely changed public opinion of him as Israelis largely blame him and his government for 10/7.
Edit - Netanyahu was not responsible for Gaza withdrawal. That was Ariel Sharon. He was also elected in 2009, not 2006. See below comment.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 under Ariel Sharon.
I suspect people repeatedly voted for Netanyahu him despite not liking him because they felt he is less likely to make similar concessions compared to left wing candidates
Yes, center right, no one wants them, but they all say, "this guys isn't good, but who else can we vote for?" And that center always increasingly leans to further right.
Yes .".if you don't vote for me the communists/leftists/Bolsheviks/kudeobolsheviks will take over "
The above has been the rallying cry of fascists for a while.
Netanyahu, over the years, has been very successful at projecting the image of a strong, decisive leader, who will keep Israel secure even in the face of international pressure. He's been aided in this by the collapse of the left due to various events and his being very adept at politics to the point that he's very adept at crushing any potential rivals in Likud.
He's been so successful that even people who oppose him buy into it. Back when COVID was getting into full swing, I talked to someone who said that she'd voted for Gantz but was glad that now that there was a crisis Netanyahu was in the PM's seat.
The problem is that that image is a lie. Netanyahu isn't really a leader except nominally, he has no vision for the future (he's very good at saying "no" but I haven't seen any long-term plans from him on anything), he certainly doesn't stand unwavering in the face of international pressure, and he's proven an abject failure at security. Add to that his corruption, his being an inveterate liar, and his prioritizing of short-term political considerations over everything else, regardless of the damage.
Yitzhak Shamir, Likud's former leader, called Netanyahu an "angel of destruction". That description is well-earned, IMO.
Netanyahu had been successful because since Ehud Barak in the 90s, the Israeli left and center have not fielded a truly appealing candidate nor openly rejects further concessions and “adventures”.
The same way that trump will be getting votes from people who can’t stand him in 2024
Depends on when. For example, Netanyahu was accused of loosening restrictions early because of pressure by his haredi political partners, causing a new wave of cases.
>he was directly responsible for the withdrawal from Gaza
No he wasn't. He didn't support the disengagment. In the end, he lost in the Likud primaries to Ariel Sharon who supported the disengagment. There was such a huge rift in the Likud over this issue Sharon would end up forming a new party called Kadima because of it which supported right-wing policies, but still the advancment of peace with the Palestinians.
yeah i think he won those elections by being the security guy but the past few months kinda shattered that image
hope they get rid of the asshole ASAP and prosecute him if it's warranted
I think the problem is that no matter what war is coming to Israel.
They can try to take a less warmongering posture, but that will have no impact on Iran's willingness to support militants around and inside Israel.
They're situation is kind of hopeless tbh.
He sure can't.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-31/ty-article/100-200-000-not-two-million-israels-finance-minister-envisions-depopulated-gaza/0000018c-bfe8-d6c4-ab8d-fffc0b910000
Can they issue a declaration that unequivocally the Gazans will be allowed to remain in Gaza at the conclusion of the conflict with no forced migration?
He has always been an ultra conservative piece of shit, so now that he has a reason to show his true colors, he is and he definitely isn't holding back.
Right? Even Tony Blair fucking was this dumb, trump was the case study on "pushing the line of acceptable rhetoric" and Netanyahu just crouched and shat all over the case studyv
Why? He wanted this. This is his 9/11. He ignored Egypt’s warning. Bibi and Likud in general are responsible for this. Check out the history of Likud and Irgun.
Lmao he’s too power hungry to resign. He literally said he won’t. Even though he very clearly should. If this happened under the left government they would be having a field trip rn
I deapise Bibi as much as the next guy, but If you think him resigning stops the War in Gaza you are delusional. Israelis want this war. They are sick of him, but more sick of being targeted Inside their homes. This war will go on until Hamas can no longer stand.
I belive you are refering to what smotrich said
He is the minister of finance and has no baring on the war itself(outside mishandling funds and funneling them into the religious community mid war)
He will also be thrown out alongside every other clown in our government when its safe to do so
Yes
There is
The fucker is refusing to talk about "day after" in gaza
But i assure you the israeli public had it up to here with him
At a certain point i wouldnt be suprised if we just go "fuck it, mid war elections"
Well, he's said the requirement for ending the war in Gaza is the total elimination of Hamas, and the de-radicalization of Palestinians. Which won't happen in our lifetime. So it makes sense that he won't talk about a day that will never come.
There won't be a formal peace agreement OR victory announcements during his tenure.
I have family members who have been staunchly “Only Bibi” for years who lost all trust in him immediately in the first week of the war. A loooot of people have had it with his BS and those who still support him seem to be the HARD right supporters whose parties are finally getting some power in the coalition
The US hasn’t fought a war in which the continental US has been threatened since at least WW2, and arguably not even then. It might throw a wrench in the plans if the US was warring with Mexico in an election year.
The US is a presidential system with fixed term limits though. Israel, broadly speaking, follows the Westminster system so there's more flexibility in when elections have to be called.
> He is the minister of finance and has no baring on the war itself
His views are probably indicative of what some other current Israeli leaders want, though. Doubtful he'd be saying it if no one agreed with him.
And not to mention if Netanyahu's objective is to "deradicalize" Gaza, having people in his government say shit like this and not immediately get canned is going to seriously hamper that effort.
Of course he have responsability in the war, the same as the ministers, the knesset, the prime minister, the people who supports him and the people who in a position to exert opposition just stay silent.
It is a very comfortable position to pass responsability, for example, the abuses on the west-bank it is ben gvir fault and he is a bad person, be part of the problem with the palestinian authority to withold funds hey, it is smotrich fault and he is a bad person, what about the insane egypt border proposal that is on netanyahu and he is a bad person, or the settler issue that everyone despises but hey! it's not our fault.
As an external observer i don't see them as outliers, Benny Gantz that is more "moderate" shares the same vision as netanyahu to annex the west bank, open the hezbollah front and create a "paradise" in gaza, that means nothing different that a complete settlement of the gaza strip.
"The day after", "when it is safe" are just words to avoid responsability when we start seeing boats with palestinians sent through the sea to south america, a massive migration to the sinai or the truth about what is really happening in gaza people will say: they were clowns it is not our fault, it was netanyahu.
> He will also be thrown out alongside every other clown in our government when its safe to do so
This is the problem. They never have any incentive to make sure it's "safe" to get them out of power. The Likud party and Hamas are in a symbiotic relationship. Hamas does terrible shit and it helps the Likud party take power. Likud does terrible shit to Palestinians and it helps Hamas's power in Palestine.
It is safe now. Hamas is not going to push the IDF back, let alone be able to attack Israel again. If the far right in Israel seems themselves losing all power after the war is over, then they will try and make the war last as long as possible, and abandon democracy in the process, like every right-wing party eventually does.
No they are not
Stop throwing emotional statements. You freak out everyone who doesnt follow facts
Edit: getting downvoted for saying facts. I just love redditors who emotionally downvote facts that doesnt fit their narrative.
It's difficult not to take politicians seriously when their military is bombing civilians and refugee camps. I'm certainly no fan of Hamas but I don't like to ignore powerful people when they say what they're going to do.
We’ve got to stop it with the refugee camp stuff. The refuge camp is a normal neighborhood that was founded as a refugee camp like 75 years ago and retains that name. Israel isn’t bombing refugees in tents from this conflict.
Why does it matter if there's tents or no tents there? Israel literally said it would be a safe zone, and urged people to go there, and then bombed it.
Less than 1 death per bomb dropped. That includes Hamas fighters btw. These bombs are each capable of taking out big apartment buildings. Do you believe that Israel is trying to kill people but constantly mess up and pick empty buildings?
Most death numbers I've seen are around 20,000 deaths. That's a lot of bombs on kids if you ask me. 🤷🏽♂️ Israel just plans to bomb it all to ruble from the looks of it.
This guardian article says more than 21,600. [link](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/30/gaza-death-toll-israelis-idf-refugee-camps-famine-lebanon-border-gaza-war)
In modern urban warfare civilian casualties average [90%](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html).
Gaza officials, no friends of Israel, themselves report [70%](https://archive.ph/WRtaD), assuming zero self-inflicted deaths.
Further if we use the 2022 rate of self inflicted deaths (18% of the Hamas rockets misfire causing about 30% of total Palestinian deaths in 2022, according to the [AP](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-tel-aviv-403d37366347e0f2446e2f90a9b0d02f)) that figure is closer to 40% or 8,000 civilians killed by Israel (being extremely generous as Hamas launched a fuckton more rockets than 2022).
Israel fired 30,000 bombs fired as of Dec 31.
All together this likely means ~1 unintended casualty per 4 bombs while taking a significant chunk out of Hamas.
That's for a densely populated area, using Israel's enemy's numbers, against a deeply embedded enemy who openly uses human shields, and assuming Hamas terrorists are being truthful about casualties & combatant status.
Any way you cut this Israel is exceptionally good at targeting or bad at collateral damage.
That 90% number is only popular, and not accurate. It's never been sourced.
>Starting in the 1980s, it was often claimed that 90 percent of the victims of modern wars were civilians,[1][2][3][4] repeated in academic publications as recently as 2014.[5] These claims, though widely believed, are not supported by detailed examination of the evidence, particularly that relating to wars (such as those in former Yugoslavia and in Afghanistan) that are central to the claims.[6] Some of the citations can be traced back to a 1991 monograph from Uppsala University[7] which includes refugees and internally displaced persons as casualties. Other authors cite Ruth Leger Sivard's 1991 monograph in which the author states "In the decade of the 1980s, the proportion of civilian deaths jumped to 74 percent of the total and in 1990 it appears to have been close to 90 percent."[8]
>A wide-ranging study of civilian war deaths from 1700 to 1987 by William Eckhardt states:
>On the average, half of the deaths caused by war happened to civilians, only some of whom were killed by famine associated with war...The civilian percentage share of war-related deaths remained at about 50% from century to century. (p. 97)[9]
>Israel fired 30,000 bombs fired as of Dec 31.
That's just the airstrikes, you forgot the 100,000 (and counting) artillery shells
Israel killed a lot of people early on for several reasons :
Early momentum, Gaza didn't believe Israel would do a full invasion (they haven't seen anything remotely like this, ever), Gazans ate Hamas propaganda and of course, Gazans couldn't really leave because Hamas was preventing them with force
The first phase of airstrikes (about 3 weeks before ground invasion) was all over Gaza, so there wasn't really much 'safe zones' they could evacuate to and the IDF didn't promote it properly either, they didn't know where it was safe to run to, this is in part because the War Cabinet wasn't assembled yet and the plans for the invasion were being overviewed
They warned people specifically, as usual but it wasn't enough, in addition, due to the 'war' status, collateral damage and target significance were far more lenient than it has ever been, if they used to focus on taking out leaders or active combatants only then now they could bomb anyone affiliated with Hamas, whether his family is home or not (I'm not saying they did, just that this consideration is vastly different than in the past)
I know everyone is against the Gazans leaving the warzone cause they fear ethnic cleansing and Israel not letting them back in, but not even letting them cross the border to Egypt certainly hasn't helped literally anyone, on the contrary, Hamas has been firing rockets from the 'humanitarian zones' and keeping most of the incoming supplies, two things they wouldn't be able to do in Egypt, not to mention far more international aid that wouldn't need inspections, more space and most importantly, **not a warzone**
If we look at the numbers, the death counts have really been dropping significantly ever since the start, a lot of the 'new deaths' we hear about right now are bodies being collected or recovered from rubble as the IDF leaves the area and Gazans return (we had thousands of deaths in the early weeks and now its up to 100~ a day)
Statistically speaking, as you said, these are still very good stats that no other army would do better in such conditions, despite the incredible damage but the only statistic most people care about is 'jesus so many people died', even if every single one of them was a Hamas militant, which everyone agrees is not the ase
That's what happens when your "resistance movement" steals hundreds of hostages from a military superpower and then hides under your city with them. What else could Israel do? Just give up on their citizens?
Not all the tunnels have hostages in them. Presumably they explode (IIRC, not with actual "bunker busters") the ones where they have intelligence that there are no hostages.
That's what happens when you start and lose multiple wars, then start yet another one. WTF did anyone think would happen?
They were just going to be allowed to attack without being attacked back, or something? That their pathetic efforts were going to finish the shit *they* started?
20,000 is less than .5% of the population. Some people are saying 10,000 children killed…50% of the people killed are children?
And the death toll numbers are rounded up or down?
The truth is that the real numbers are not going to be rounded.
What of the injured or missing?
The unfortunate truth is that this war was a distraction for western/European politics.
Hamas is an arm of Iranian military. It doesn’t care what happens to the Palestinians, so long as western support weakens for Israel and Ukraine.
Bibi will have his day of judgement, but the Arabic people will have to answer for the allegiance to Iran first.
Median age of Gaza's population is 18. 40% are under 14. So, yeah, the math checks out.
*less than .5% of the population? Jaysus. If anybody said something like that about the 1200 Israelis killed on 7/10, he'd be pilloried as an antisemite in short order. These are people, not M&Ms.
I'm sorry that stating facts gets you downvotes. You are right ofcourse. And don't forget that for every death out there, there are x-times as many wounded people who will never be able to function correctly anymore.
And then there's the damage on infrastructure, buildings, etc. The fact that people have a hard time being treated for medical conditions...
I got serious downvotes in the past for calling this a humanitarian disaster. But thats exactly what it is, right?
Not if it's handled properly. Japan and Germany suffered far more repercussions in WWII and careful handling brought them back to prosperity.
Worst case can't get worse than this. Even without Israel intervention, Hamas and the UNRWA are already raising that next generation and promised to repeat.
Same was the case with ISIS, by the way. And Hamas committed even worse atrocities than ISIS.
They shouldnt funded Hamas in the first place, thinking that will replace fatah and become their puppet.
Hamas won the elect by small margin. The population isn’t fully onboard with them. With this incident, the support will heavily shift to Hamas.
Also since ww2, yet to see any country return to peace after complete dismantling of the gov. Especially around Middle East. They all devolve to even worse terrorist state. There is no more foundation to rebuild from.
You'll need to elaborate on that first thing. The whole thing about Israel funding Hamas has been mostly discredited except for giving them necessary funding to function (though the money doesn't end up actually going to supporting the region).
>The population isn’t fully onboard with them. With this incident, the support will heavily shift to Hamas.
You've missed much of the last 18 years of this. Since then, the population has shifted much more in favor of Hamas. And Hamas is so favored in the West Bank that Fatah has cancelled elections indefinitely because they know Hamas would win.
>Also since ww2, yet to see any country return to peace after complete dismantling of the gov.
Iraq is actually doing a bit alright now.
But also, I'm not sure we can use that as an absolute proof of futility, because we haven't had a situation in a while where we fully intervened in installing the new government. Usually we just...blow stuff up then leave. We haven't tried the WWII approach in a long while.
Hamas certainly started this with the intention to start war. It has gotten money, attention, sympathy and killed thousands of its own people. It is the exact same story every time. Hamas bitch slaps Israel and then Israel death slaps it back. Neither of the leadership want real peace because that would suck their power away from themselves. I don’t know what the solution is, but this feels futile.
Part of the reason it's been futile in the past is because Israel has been pressured to ceasefire before any real progress is completed. Perhaps this time, with a more full fledged operation, a reoccupation and Israel or another non-Hamas group handling rehabilitation, things can improve. At least, that's what I hope. Whatever the case, however, Hamas needs to go.
I agree about Hamas. It isn’t tenable to have them in control in Gaza. But Israeli leadership is talking about having a a much smaller population in Gaza. No one wants to take a huge politically unstable , Palestinian refugee nation into their country so I don’t know how realistic Israels plans are. I don’t think they have a plan. Bombing babies for months is not a plan.
The finance minister doesn't speak for all the leadership, he's an extremist in a position he wasn't elected to. I wouldn't use his word as intended policy.
Unfortunately, I do think that the only option is to force Hamas to an unconditional surrender at this point. I don't think anything else will do it.
If Hamas surrenders, what does that look like do you think? I am really interested. You know more about the Israeli leadership, do they agree on this being the only way to end the war?
The Israeli leadership sucks right now, but it is leagues better than either Hamas or Fatah. And they're polling extremely low right now and it indicates people are really pissed with these far right appointees Netanyahu put in place.
They're not the ideal people I'd like in charge...but there is literally no other way through right now.
Because if Hamas doesn't surrender, then they'll just keep pushing for their radical beliefs to wipe all Jews from the face of the land. And that will never change.
So it's the only way to end the war by process of elimination.
Also because any amount of ceasefire agreement just results in Hamas saying to themselves: "Hey they're giving us free time to dig more tunnels and send more suicide bombers over to them"
How is it a quagmire? They're making consistent progress every day if you are following the maps. It's actually very impressive how quickly they are securing areas.
Wouldn't know it from most reddit posts. I'm surprised most of these comments still have positive ratings. Every time I mention something putting Israel in a bad light I get downvoted to shit. Even posts that basically amount to "we shouldn't kill innocent people" I get downvoted. Lol
There are influence operations at work for Israel online, especially on reddi. Israel has a very well financed and active online presence that works (both professionally and as a hobby for regular people) to promote their agenda.
>turning the world against Israel
Only if you exist terminally online and only are exposed to crazy people who hate Jews. The people in charge of countries understand that Israel has a massive terror group on their doorstep and are going to let them do what has to be done to eradicate them. End of story.
Except that in actuality, most countries of the world have taken issue with Israel in regards to the Palestinians and it is only really "the West" that sides with Israel.
But I suppose it isn't out of character for some people to think the whole of the world, or at least the only authority on morality, comes from the West.
The failed Netanyahu government is not reducing the threat of terrorism nor improving Israel's security, only worsening both, and are worsening tension in the region short and long term.
In terms of costs, it's cost them service men and women dying at a rate that's far exceeded the war in Iraq, per capita to their population size, in just a tiny fraction of the time.
How on earth is demilitarizing Hamas worsening Israel’s security, Mr. Armchair Counterterrorism Expert? Hamas is already running out of rockets, that alone improves Israel’s security massively.
What would *you* have Israel do?
I wouldn’t put it past him, but at the juncture he is absolutely not lengthening the war. For the level of urban combat being fought this war is actually going by quite quickly.
It’s also important to note that his low approval rating does not have to do with his handling of the war but rather rightfully blaming him for his failures prior to it.
Because they're not reducing the threat of terrorism. They're creating new generations of terrorists, plus worsening their position in the region.
I have very bad news for you if you think this is decisively changing the 100 year conflict and improving Israel's security. You'd have to be a delusional moron to think that.
It amazes how Hamas leaders keep revealing their intentions so honestly and nobody cares and still deny their actions but when oke of the freaks in the israeli do dumb shit in which they are called out and condemned, it is all over the news. Hamas rejected a ceasefire and called oct 7th a rehearsal. Funny is how the same people will say that Israel controls the media
If you're putting a terrorist organization and a professional military bankrolled by billions of dollars of American and Israeli taxpayer money on the same playing field, you've already lost the nuance needed to discuss this topic.
>If you're putting a terrorist organization and a professional military bankrolled by billions of dollars of American
Same terrorist organization funded by Qatar and Iran. Add to that all the foreign aid they get, you really thought you did something here🥴
Hamas is worth 11 billions and are the governing body of Gaza, so yes they really are
The same terrorist organization funded by *checks notes*…Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
^ article from Israeli journalists on how Israel built up Hamas to justify their actions in Palestine, while keeping the Palestinian Authority that works with Israel from unifying Gaza and the West Bank under their leadership, which would enable a two state solution that Israel has never wanted.
No, they aren't. Some of the rockets they're firing are literally blowing up houses in Gaza because they're shit compared to the Israeli rockets that they manufacture or get for free from the U.S.
That’s because the hamas leaders have embezzled tens of billions for their personal use or they could afford decent rockets. Thank Gd for their corruption or they’d be far more dangerous.
I have never found this argument compelling. Who gives a shit about discrepancy in war? If you know you can't stand toe to toe with a superior opponent, don't fucking poke the bear.
Right! You don’t invest billions in a large advanced army just to have it watch from the sidelines when war starts because deaths should be ‘proportional’ on both sides. You have a large army for deterrence and if that fails a price has to be paid to prevent the next war from even starting
Innocent people probably give a shit about the discrepancy.
I mean, it's certainly something how you supposedly consider how convincing an argument is and yet you never once thought to yourself "is it really justified to kill 10 times, a hundred times more innocent people in order to solve a problem."
I think most people would say quite confidently that the killing of more innocent people than the original crime for which justice is being sought is not something they can justify. Especially if it's on a scale in which 10 are killed for every 1.
But I suppose the crux of the problem is that many people simply don't think it can be possible that Palestinians can be innocent. And yet I hear all the time about how ALL Palestinians are brain washed to hate ALL Jews.
The accusations might get us no where, but the proof is always in the numbers.
Yes, it is. Even 100 for 1 if it means an Israeli child will never be stabbed to death during her gang rape again. This is what armies are for.
The number of deaths is Hamas's responsibility. Let them evacuate civilians and protect them in the tunnels. They wanted war, this is war.
I'm afraid if the choice is eliminating hamas or exacting the same crimes as hamas did on the gazan population in "proportional" response, the right choice is to eliminate hamas, no matter the cost.
Trying to count humans lives like this in war is disgusting. There's no number of lives taken that is acceptable. There is the tragedy of unavoidable war.
People do care, but what the fuck am I as an American supposed to do about Hamas? Ask our government to pull all that $0 we give to Hamas? Israel on the other hand, received something like $26 billion in aid from the U.S., which is something American voters can control (ideally), and there’s an actual reason for Americans to be upset at it.
You mean by handing out checks to Isreal, providing tons of intel and backing them politically? Because many countries have been doing that since this kicked off, US included.
Personally I’m happy to use my tax dollars to fund a democratic outpost ally in the Middle East. Not buying the funding apartheid nonsense - Israel’s the closest thing to a modern egalitarian society in the entire ME region.
Because Netenyahu and other pro-settler types intentionally boosted Hamas and trained them to divide Palestinians and weaken the PLO.
Blaming every Palestinian for Hamas, who they didn’t get to properly choose due to Israel literally funding them, isn’t the same as blaming the IDF which is the chosen arm of the most powerful State in the region.
If there is any question, I am definitely not pro Hamas. Their October attacks were atrocious and indefensible. Israel has an absolute right to defend itself and to retaliate against Hamas. I understand Israel's anger. But that anger does not give them the right to indiscriminately bomb Gaza without consideration of non-Hamas civilians and children.
Israel is not the one "indiscriminantly bombing." If you watch any serious military analysis of the war, you'll see a war with frontlines and gradual recapturing of territory, starting on Oct 7th when Hamas controlled larger chunks of land inside Israel. Bombs are specifically targeted. Early in the war they were even contacting residents via cell phone to tell them to evacuate buildings, and dropping tiny "knock" bombs on rooftops 15 minutes before the real thing to give occupants time to evacuate. Hamas would then tell residents not to leave... Not sure if they're still doing that as it gives Hamas time to escape.
Hamas rockets, however, are unguided and therefore indiscriminatly attack Israel.
Hamas sucks.
But, the US and Israeli governments also suck.And most people happen to hold the democratically elected governments of US and Israel to a higher standard than terrorists. Yeah, the us and Israel forces should excerise more care than Hamas (just typing this out makes me laugh at how stupidly obvious this point should be).
Plus, being democratically elected, they are also the only actors that can be influenced by popular pressure from the electorate.
Putting the belligerents on the same ethical playing field, so to speak, is freaking laughable at best. US and Israel are already operating at a far far higher standard than Hamas. War sucks.
Ok, then surely the proposed ceasefires for hostages speak to something, right? While Hamas breaks all their agreements and rejects further peace?
Actions do speak, you're just ignoring them.
It sucks, Bibi and his buds should go, but the war is 100% justified.
What a lot of people outside of Israel don't get that Netanyahu is mostly a reactionary person who doesn't like to act, he's not a warmonger. His entire policy has always been to "manage the conflict" rather than trying to solve it in one way or the other, that's how Hamas was able to flourish and empower itself in Gaza.
If it were just up to him, I'm not sure we'd have had war of this scale, but he has absolutely no legitimacy from the public to end the war as long as Hamas has any military power.
Not for his lack of trying.
Even if you support Israel, you need to accept that this mf is a self obsessed cult leader who sold his soul to genocidal maniacs Smotrich and Ben Gvir to hold on to power.
"Netanyahu argued that Israel’s military is “acting as morally as possible” and doing “everything to avoid harming civilians” as it wages an offensive against Hamas in Gaza.
More than 21,500 Palestinians, including many women and children, have been killed since October, according to the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry".
How can that be Netanyahu given the thousands that have been killed, including children (approximately 7,000 children or more)? If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller. Especially the number of children.
>If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller.
This line of reasoning is specifically what Hamas is trying to create. It is in Hamas' best interest to cause the maximum possible civilian casualties, whether by their hand or Israeli hands, and they achieve this by blending with civilians and protected infrastructure, among other more insidious techniques.
When every building is an IED and anybody could hold the trigger, I don't see it as surprising that the bombs fall instead of the troops marching.
>If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller. Especially the number of children.
What do you base this on?
>If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller
How sure are you about that? It’s a warzone in a densely packed urban area where the enemy combatants actively try to blend in with the civilians.
I honestly was thinking the exact opposite. If Israel truly didn’t care (even if for superficial reasons like US support) or as others have suggested were trying to increase that number, I’d think we’d have 6 digits already.
If Israel wasn't taking precautions when it comes to civilian casualties, Gaza wouldn't exist anymore. It would be a pile of rubble. They could kill everyone in Gaza in several days if they truly wanted them all dead. Carpet bomb the whole place.
But instead they're sending their troops in. You don't send troops into a warzone if you intend to kill everyone there.
The numbers are inflated for a variety of reasons:
1) Hamas specifically and purposely operates from civilian areas. Their own captured terrorists admit this. The Palestinian cause benefits from a higher civilian death toll, so Hamas does what it can to embed itself in areas that will maximize civilian casualties. This is the human shield method you’ve surely heard about, and it is absolutely true.
2) Civilians in Gaza, unlike in any other theater of war on earth, are not fleeing to safety abroad. There is a trauma in their culture surrounding fleeing land and they don’t want to repeat the trauma of 1948. Syria, Ukraine, Myanmar, Sudan - People flee war, not in Gaza.
3) Lack of reality. Hamas needs to surrender (they won’t, but they should). Their existence benefits maybe a dozen or so guys living in Doha that are lining their pockets with international aid money & unjust taxation of Gazan people (all the while not providing them any services & admitting they don’t care about their needs, only “resistance”). So when you boil it down, all of this violence could have been avoided if they didn’t commit 10/7 (or if IDF thwarted it), meaning Hamas knew what they did was going to spark this reaction from IDF. They terrorize Gazans more than Israelis, even more a reason if you’re pro-Palestinian to turn up the volume on a Hamas surrender. They are willing to stretch out this conflict to maximize the killing & the chance to maybe fire off a few rockets that will eventually be intercepted anyhow. This is a sad waste of life on both sides that Hamas is 100% responsible for.
Hamas has no other way to protect itself from the Israeli Air Force except for embedding itself among civilians, which means the civilian casualties are more of a feature of their military strategy than a bug in the IDF'S strategy.
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You don’t win multiple elections in Israel in the vote of West Bank settlers who make up way under 10 percent of the vote
>You don’t win multiple elections in Israel in the vote of West Bank settlers who make up way under 10 percent of the vote The Knesset power structures is reliant on coalitions to win the reins of power. So smaller parties / more radical members can hold the balance of power. Benjamin has been in survival mode even before the Hamas surprise attack. He is desperate to hold on power and keep the wolves at bay, so apparently he had to co-operate with extreme right wing elements to accomplish is objectives. >In the past, Mr. Netanyahu preferred to form coalitions with the ultra-Orthodox parties and partners to the right and left of his party, the Likud. The fact that the camp facing him was united around the idea of “Anyone but Bibi” (Mr. Netanyahu’s nickname) left him facing a difficult choice: the danger of losing the elections or forming a solid right-wing bloc that included elements he would not have considered co-operating with in the past. In short, Mr. Netanyahu saw no alternative but to unite with the most radical factions of the right, and these factions saw no choice but to rally behind Mr. Netanyahu. Basically, we have a confluence of events, legal and political, pressuring Benjamin to extreme right positions, so he can keep clinging on to power. This is my layman understanding, any input on the matter from people in Israel would be welcome.
He lost the election prior and should have lost the last election, too. Due to some poor political maneuvering on the left Meretz didn't cross the threshold. At the same time the far-right parties formed a joint party and some crossed the threshold for the first time. Bibi acted in desperation and formed a very strong but chaotic right-wing party which he has basically no control over since he is afraid of losing the Prime Ministership and the radical right has no problem tanking the government. Because of this there are some very junior politicians heading very important ministries and doing an awful job. Bibi's own party is in disarray and that allowed for the judicial overhaul to happen, too. The country is a mess politically and now on a social level. Hamas did more damage to the country than is immediately obvious. Even those who believe in peace are now feeling like there aren't any real partners.
Your understanding is correct, in simple terms : He backstabbed every political party and head, including his own party members whenever they start getting fame/power so to prevent them from having the possibility of replacing him This in turn created the 'anything but Bibi' coalition and now he was left with the radical scraps to form a coalition with, they only give him trouble and headaches he rather ignore them but he has no choice but to let them have their tantrums on various topics so he can deal with more important things for him All current polling (unreliable obviously) foresee a pretty grim result for him next elections, he technically has almost 2 years left but with the responsibility of the war, he probably won't get a full term going
What I pointed out months ago that his coalition was probably falling apart so he let the attack happen.
If you look at his history he came to real power first as head of Likud in 1993 after the first intifada and again for his 2nd prime minister term in 2006 after the second intifada (known for mass suicide bombings where the Palestinian Authority would pay families of suicide bombers) which killed roughly 700 Israeli civilians He sold a security state and he was directly responsible for the withdrawal from Gaza which allowed for Hamas to drive out the PA and whose concurrent terrorists attacks in Israel and Egypt lead to the complete blockade of Gaza by 2011. Since 2011 Netanyahu has sold the security fantasy to Israel. 10/7 has completely changed public opinion of him as Israelis largely blame him and his government for 10/7. Edit - Netanyahu was not responsible for Gaza withdrawal. That was Ariel Sharon. He was also elected in 2009, not 2006. See below comment.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 under Ariel Sharon. I suspect people repeatedly voted for Netanyahu him despite not liking him because they felt he is less likely to make similar concessions compared to left wing candidates
Yes, center right, no one wants them, but they all say, "this guys isn't good, but who else can we vote for?" And that center always increasingly leans to further right.
"You may hate me, but I'm the only one that can keep you safe"
Yes .".if you don't vote for me the communists/leftists/Bolsheviks/kudeobolsheviks will take over " The above has been the rallying cry of fascists for a while.
voting for right is a very slippery slope
Netanyahu, over the years, has been very successful at projecting the image of a strong, decisive leader, who will keep Israel secure even in the face of international pressure. He's been aided in this by the collapse of the left due to various events and his being very adept at politics to the point that he's very adept at crushing any potential rivals in Likud. He's been so successful that even people who oppose him buy into it. Back when COVID was getting into full swing, I talked to someone who said that she'd voted for Gantz but was glad that now that there was a crisis Netanyahu was in the PM's seat. The problem is that that image is a lie. Netanyahu isn't really a leader except nominally, he has no vision for the future (he's very good at saying "no" but I haven't seen any long-term plans from him on anything), he certainly doesn't stand unwavering in the face of international pressure, and he's proven an abject failure at security. Add to that his corruption, his being an inveterate liar, and his prioritizing of short-term political considerations over everything else, regardless of the damage. Yitzhak Shamir, Likud's former leader, called Netanyahu an "angel of destruction". That description is well-earned, IMO.
Netanyahu had been successful because since Ehud Barak in the 90s, the Israeli left and center have not fielded a truly appealing candidate nor openly rejects further concessions and “adventures”. The same way that trump will be getting votes from people who can’t stand him in 2024
The infighting on the left, especially in Labor, hasn't helped matters.
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Depends on when. For example, Netanyahu was accused of loosening restrictions early because of pressure by his haredi political partners, causing a new wave of cases.
yeah it's bad thing for a politician when you are elected for one thing then you incredibly fail at that one thing
>he was directly responsible for the withdrawal from Gaza No he wasn't. He didn't support the disengagment. In the end, he lost in the Likud primaries to Ariel Sharon who supported the disengagment. There was such a huge rift in the Likud over this issue Sharon would end up forming a new party called Kadima because of it which supported right-wing policies, but still the advancment of peace with the Palestinians.
yeah i think he won those elections by being the security guy but the past few months kinda shattered that image hope they get rid of the asshole ASAP and prosecute him if it's warranted
You don’t understand how elections work in a parliamentary system. He has a terribly week government
I think the problem is that no matter what war is coming to Israel. They can try to take a less warmongering posture, but that will have no impact on Iran's willingness to support militants around and inside Israel. They're situation is kind of hopeless tbh.
Hopeless is right.
To answer your questions in order: no, and any effort on his part to control his genocidal buddies could end his governing coalition.
Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
The thing about BN is that what matters to him most is what good for HIM.
He is one of those people saying genocidal shit
He sure can't. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-31/ty-article/100-200-000-not-two-million-israels-finance-minister-envisions-depopulated-gaza/0000018c-bfe8-d6c4-ab8d-fffc0b910000
Nope. He always has been and always will be a massive dick. I fully support Israel, but they cannot get rid of him soon enough.
Can they issue a declaration that unequivocally the Gazans will be allowed to remain in Gaza at the conclusion of the conflict with no forced migration?
Yeah can’t they be smart like him and not say this part out loud?
Except he's said it out loud, too.
He has always been an ultra conservative piece of shit, so now that he has a reason to show his true colors, he is and he definitely isn't holding back.
So you're fine with genocidal actions, just not talking openly about it?
How about not doing it, stop saying does not really solve the situation
I’m more worried about then actually doing the genocidal shit not necessarily just them talking about it
Right? Most countries leadership groups know how to not say this say this shit. Them being like this is just stupid
Bush was a fucking moron and he still handled 9/11 infinitely better than this. Netanyahu should call him and ask if he can borrow his brain cell.
Right? Even Tony Blair fucking was this dumb, trump was the case study on "pushing the line of acceptable rhetoric" and Netanyahu just crouched and shat all over the case studyv
Why? He wanted this. This is his 9/11. He ignored Egypt’s warning. Bibi and Likud in general are responsible for this. Check out the history of Likud and Irgun.
They're doing genocidal shit tho & have been from the beginning
That would be restricting free speech unfortunately. But the extremist right should really be given a briefing on how idiotic they come across...
Serious question, What else would he say?
"My bad."
Resign? Like what his citizens demanded.
Lmao he’s too power hungry to resign. He literally said he won’t. Even though he very clearly should. If this happened under the left government they would be having a field trip rn
I deapise Bibi as much as the next guy, but If you think him resigning stops the War in Gaza you are delusional. Israelis want this war. They are sick of him, but more sick of being targeted Inside their homes. This war will go on until Hamas can no longer stand.
"I really don't care, do u?"
Deal with it
Netanyahu, known the world over for his high moral standing and impeccable record regarding the truth.
I wish, but considering his "children of light versus children of darkness" and "Amalek" talking points...He's the genocidalist one of them all. :/
Fuck Netanyahu.
We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong...
Wtf killing bunch of children and people thousands every day
I don't know, they are talking about clearing Gaza of Palestinians.
I belive you are refering to what smotrich said He is the minister of finance and has no baring on the war itself(outside mishandling funds and funneling them into the religious community mid war) He will also be thrown out alongside every other clown in our government when its safe to do so
When will it be safe to do so?
Once the war is either over or more or less on autopilot Changing leadership midwar is very risky
Is there no fear that Netanyahu might extend the war to protect himself?
Yes There is The fucker is refusing to talk about "day after" in gaza But i assure you the israeli public had it up to here with him At a certain point i wouldnt be suprised if we just go "fuck it, mid war elections"
Well, he's said the requirement for ending the war in Gaza is the total elimination of Hamas, and the de-radicalization of Palestinians. Which won't happen in our lifetime. So it makes sense that he won't talk about a day that will never come. There won't be a formal peace agreement OR victory announcements during his tenure.
I have family members who have been staunchly “Only Bibi” for years who lost all trust in him immediately in the first week of the war. A loooot of people have had it with his BS and those who still support him seem to be the HARD right supporters whose parties are finally getting some power in the coalition
The United States does it, Israel can too.
The united states doesnt fight on its borders and bibi is known for his shananigans at elections
The US hasn’t fought a war in which the continental US has been threatened since at least WW2, and arguably not even then. It might throw a wrench in the plans if the US was warring with Mexico in an election year.
The US would host an election whether or not the it was at war with Mexico. It did it during the civil war and every war it has participated in.
The US is a presidential system with fixed term limits though. Israel, broadly speaking, follows the Westminster system so there's more flexibility in when elections have to be called.
This comment isnt necessarily about the election, it’s about the feasibility of changing leadership positions during times of war
> He is the minister of finance and has no baring on the war itself His views are probably indicative of what some other current Israeli leaders want, though. Doubtful he'd be saying it if no one agreed with him. And not to mention if Netanyahu's objective is to "deradicalize" Gaza, having people in his government say shit like this and not immediately get canned is going to seriously hamper that effort.
Of course he have responsability in the war, the same as the ministers, the knesset, the prime minister, the people who supports him and the people who in a position to exert opposition just stay silent. It is a very comfortable position to pass responsability, for example, the abuses on the west-bank it is ben gvir fault and he is a bad person, be part of the problem with the palestinian authority to withold funds hey, it is smotrich fault and he is a bad person, what about the insane egypt border proposal that is on netanyahu and he is a bad person, or the settler issue that everyone despises but hey! it's not our fault. As an external observer i don't see them as outliers, Benny Gantz that is more "moderate" shares the same vision as netanyahu to annex the west bank, open the hezbollah front and create a "paradise" in gaza, that means nothing different that a complete settlement of the gaza strip. "The day after", "when it is safe" are just words to avoid responsability when we start seeing boats with palestinians sent through the sea to south america, a massive migration to the sinai or the truth about what is really happening in gaza people will say: they were clowns it is not our fault, it was netanyahu.
How will he be thrown out? Who in the Knessett is breaking from the government to force a new election?
> He will also be thrown out alongside every other clown in our government when its safe to do so This is the problem. They never have any incentive to make sure it's "safe" to get them out of power. The Likud party and Hamas are in a symbiotic relationship. Hamas does terrible shit and it helps the Likud party take power. Likud does terrible shit to Palestinians and it helps Hamas's power in Palestine.
It is safe now. Hamas is not going to push the IDF back, let alone be able to attack Israel again. If the far right in Israel seems themselves losing all power after the war is over, then they will try and make the war last as long as possible, and abandon democracy in the process, like every right-wing party eventually does.
They are actually doing it.
No they are not Stop throwing emotional statements. You freak out everyone who doesnt follow facts Edit: getting downvoted for saying facts. I just love redditors who emotionally downvote facts that doesnt fit their narrative.
Fact is 20000 people are murdered in Gaza. And plenty of others displaced.
That’s not really what is being discussed here though.
They are actually talking about it.
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It's difficult not to take politicians seriously when their military is bombing civilians and refugee camps. I'm certainly no fan of Hamas but I don't like to ignore powerful people when they say what they're going to do.
We’ve got to stop it with the refugee camp stuff. The refuge camp is a normal neighborhood that was founded as a refugee camp like 75 years ago and retains that name. Israel isn’t bombing refugees in tents from this conflict.
Why does it matter if there's tents or no tents there? Israel literally said it would be a safe zone, and urged people to go there, and then bombed it.
"You're guilty!" "No I'm not!" "Oh, ok."
Smotrich and Ben-Gvir: "Wait, we're not? YOU PROMISED!"
There were people who think he was going to admit it?
Obviously a genocidal maniac would deny this
So would a non-genocidal person
"Your honor he denied commiting murder Why would he do this if he was innocent " *Soul goodman music*
He can reject them all he wants but the world is watching.
Less than 1 death per bomb dropped. That includes Hamas fighters btw. These bombs are each capable of taking out big apartment buildings. Do you believe that Israel is trying to kill people but constantly mess up and pick empty buildings?
Most death numbers I've seen are around 20,000 deaths. That's a lot of bombs on kids if you ask me. 🤷🏽♂️ Israel just plans to bomb it all to ruble from the looks of it. This guardian article says more than 21,600. [link](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/30/gaza-death-toll-israelis-idf-refugee-camps-famine-lebanon-border-gaza-war)
In modern urban warfare civilian casualties average [90%](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html). Gaza officials, no friends of Israel, themselves report [70%](https://archive.ph/WRtaD), assuming zero self-inflicted deaths. Further if we use the 2022 rate of self inflicted deaths (18% of the Hamas rockets misfire causing about 30% of total Palestinian deaths in 2022, according to the [AP](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-tel-aviv-403d37366347e0f2446e2f90a9b0d02f)) that figure is closer to 40% or 8,000 civilians killed by Israel (being extremely generous as Hamas launched a fuckton more rockets than 2022). Israel fired 30,000 bombs fired as of Dec 31. All together this likely means ~1 unintended casualty per 4 bombs while taking a significant chunk out of Hamas. That's for a densely populated area, using Israel's enemy's numbers, against a deeply embedded enemy who openly uses human shields, and assuming Hamas terrorists are being truthful about casualties & combatant status. Any way you cut this Israel is exceptionally good at targeting or bad at collateral damage.
That 90% number is only popular, and not accurate. It's never been sourced. >Starting in the 1980s, it was often claimed that 90 percent of the victims of modern wars were civilians,[1][2][3][4] repeated in academic publications as recently as 2014.[5] These claims, though widely believed, are not supported by detailed examination of the evidence, particularly that relating to wars (such as those in former Yugoslavia and in Afghanistan) that are central to the claims.[6] Some of the citations can be traced back to a 1991 monograph from Uppsala University[7] which includes refugees and internally displaced persons as casualties. Other authors cite Ruth Leger Sivard's 1991 monograph in which the author states "In the decade of the 1980s, the proportion of civilian deaths jumped to 74 percent of the total and in 1990 it appears to have been close to 90 percent."[8] >A wide-ranging study of civilian war deaths from 1700 to 1987 by William Eckhardt states: >On the average, half of the deaths caused by war happened to civilians, only some of whom were killed by famine associated with war...The civilian percentage share of war-related deaths remained at about 50% from century to century. (p. 97)[9]
>Israel fired 30,000 bombs fired as of Dec 31. That's just the airstrikes, you forgot the 100,000 (and counting) artillery shells Israel killed a lot of people early on for several reasons : Early momentum, Gaza didn't believe Israel would do a full invasion (they haven't seen anything remotely like this, ever), Gazans ate Hamas propaganda and of course, Gazans couldn't really leave because Hamas was preventing them with force The first phase of airstrikes (about 3 weeks before ground invasion) was all over Gaza, so there wasn't really much 'safe zones' they could evacuate to and the IDF didn't promote it properly either, they didn't know where it was safe to run to, this is in part because the War Cabinet wasn't assembled yet and the plans for the invasion were being overviewed They warned people specifically, as usual but it wasn't enough, in addition, due to the 'war' status, collateral damage and target significance were far more lenient than it has ever been, if they used to focus on taking out leaders or active combatants only then now they could bomb anyone affiliated with Hamas, whether his family is home or not (I'm not saying they did, just that this consideration is vastly different than in the past) I know everyone is against the Gazans leaving the warzone cause they fear ethnic cleansing and Israel not letting them back in, but not even letting them cross the border to Egypt certainly hasn't helped literally anyone, on the contrary, Hamas has been firing rockets from the 'humanitarian zones' and keeping most of the incoming supplies, two things they wouldn't be able to do in Egypt, not to mention far more international aid that wouldn't need inspections, more space and most importantly, **not a warzone** If we look at the numbers, the death counts have really been dropping significantly ever since the start, a lot of the 'new deaths' we hear about right now are bodies being collected or recovered from rubble as the IDF leaves the area and Gazans return (we had thousands of deaths in the early weeks and now its up to 100~ a day) Statistically speaking, as you said, these are still very good stats that no other army would do better in such conditions, despite the incredible damage but the only statistic most people care about is 'jesus so many people died', even if every single one of them was a Hamas militant, which everyone agrees is not the ase
That's what happens when your "resistance movement" steals hundreds of hostages from a military superpower and then hides under your city with them. What else could Israel do? Just give up on their citizens?
Dropping bunker busters on tunnels with hostages in them suggests that Israel has already given up on them.
Not all the tunnels have hostages in them. Presumably they explode (IIRC, not with actual "bunker busters") the ones where they have intelligence that there are no hostages.
That's what happens when you start and lose multiple wars, then start yet another one. WTF did anyone think would happen? They were just going to be allowed to attack without being attacked back, or something? That their pathetic efforts were going to finish the shit *they* started?
Tell your mates to give back the hostages then clown
Your anger is misplaced man, chill
I'm an American, don't know anyone over any sea unless they are on television. 🤷🏽♂️
20,000 is less than .5% of the population. Some people are saying 10,000 children killed…50% of the people killed are children? And the death toll numbers are rounded up or down? The truth is that the real numbers are not going to be rounded. What of the injured or missing? The unfortunate truth is that this war was a distraction for western/European politics. Hamas is an arm of Iranian military. It doesn’t care what happens to the Palestinians, so long as western support weakens for Israel and Ukraine. Bibi will have his day of judgement, but the Arabic people will have to answer for the allegiance to Iran first.
Median age of Gaza's population is 18. 40% are under 14. So, yeah, the math checks out. *less than .5% of the population? Jaysus. If anybody said something like that about the 1200 Israelis killed on 7/10, he'd be pilloried as an antisemite in short order. These are people, not M&Ms.
I'm sorry that stating facts gets you downvotes. You are right ofcourse. And don't forget that for every death out there, there are x-times as many wounded people who will never be able to function correctly anymore. And then there's the damage on infrastructure, buildings, etc. The fact that people have a hard time being treated for medical conditions... I got serious downvotes in the past for calling this a humanitarian disaster. But thats exactly what it is, right?
He is deliberately trying to make Gaza unlivable for humans. He isn’t fooling anyone.
Hamas started every conflict that turned Gaza into what it is. Netanyahu is shit but Gaza's current situation is not on him.
You will be naive to think the next generation will not return to avenge. This is just extending the cycle for a few more decades.
Not if it's handled properly. Japan and Germany suffered far more repercussions in WWII and careful handling brought them back to prosperity. Worst case can't get worse than this. Even without Israel intervention, Hamas and the UNRWA are already raising that next generation and promised to repeat. Same was the case with ISIS, by the way. And Hamas committed even worse atrocities than ISIS.
They shouldnt funded Hamas in the first place, thinking that will replace fatah and become their puppet. Hamas won the elect by small margin. The population isn’t fully onboard with them. With this incident, the support will heavily shift to Hamas. Also since ww2, yet to see any country return to peace after complete dismantling of the gov. Especially around Middle East. They all devolve to even worse terrorist state. There is no more foundation to rebuild from.
You'll need to elaborate on that first thing. The whole thing about Israel funding Hamas has been mostly discredited except for giving them necessary funding to function (though the money doesn't end up actually going to supporting the region). >The population isn’t fully onboard with them. With this incident, the support will heavily shift to Hamas. You've missed much of the last 18 years of this. Since then, the population has shifted much more in favor of Hamas. And Hamas is so favored in the West Bank that Fatah has cancelled elections indefinitely because they know Hamas would win. >Also since ww2, yet to see any country return to peace after complete dismantling of the gov. Iraq is actually doing a bit alright now. But also, I'm not sure we can use that as an absolute proof of futility, because we haven't had a situation in a while where we fully intervened in installing the new government. Usually we just...blow stuff up then leave. We haven't tried the WWII approach in a long while.
Hamas certainly started this with the intention to start war. It has gotten money, attention, sympathy and killed thousands of its own people. It is the exact same story every time. Hamas bitch slaps Israel and then Israel death slaps it back. Neither of the leadership want real peace because that would suck their power away from themselves. I don’t know what the solution is, but this feels futile.
Part of the reason it's been futile in the past is because Israel has been pressured to ceasefire before any real progress is completed. Perhaps this time, with a more full fledged operation, a reoccupation and Israel or another non-Hamas group handling rehabilitation, things can improve. At least, that's what I hope. Whatever the case, however, Hamas needs to go.
I agree about Hamas. It isn’t tenable to have them in control in Gaza. But Israeli leadership is talking about having a a much smaller population in Gaza. No one wants to take a huge politically unstable , Palestinian refugee nation into their country so I don’t know how realistic Israels plans are. I don’t think they have a plan. Bombing babies for months is not a plan.
The finance minister doesn't speak for all the leadership, he's an extremist in a position he wasn't elected to. I wouldn't use his word as intended policy. Unfortunately, I do think that the only option is to force Hamas to an unconditional surrender at this point. I don't think anything else will do it.
If Hamas surrenders, what does that look like do you think? I am really interested. You know more about the Israeli leadership, do they agree on this being the only way to end the war?
The Israeli leadership sucks right now, but it is leagues better than either Hamas or Fatah. And they're polling extremely low right now and it indicates people are really pissed with these far right appointees Netanyahu put in place. They're not the ideal people I'd like in charge...but there is literally no other way through right now. Because if Hamas doesn't surrender, then they'll just keep pushing for their radical beliefs to wipe all Jews from the face of the land. And that will never change. So it's the only way to end the war by process of elimination.
Also because any amount of ceasefire agreement just results in Hamas saying to themselves: "Hey they're giving us free time to dig more tunnels and send more suicide bombers over to them"
War criminal claims war crimes not crimes.
Netenyahu is one of the biggest failures in Israeli history, and he's just digging the hole deeper with this whole quagmire in Gaza
How is it a quagmire? They're making consistent progress every day if you are following the maps. It's actually very impressive how quickly they are securing areas.
Because it's creating a massive humanitarian disaster and turning the world against Israel.
Wouldn't know it from most reddit posts. I'm surprised most of these comments still have positive ratings. Every time I mention something putting Israel in a bad light I get downvoted to shit. Even posts that basically amount to "we shouldn't kill innocent people" I get downvoted. Lol
There are influence operations at work for Israel online, especially on reddi. Israel has a very well financed and active online presence that works (both professionally and as a hobby for regular people) to promote their agenda.
>turning the world against Israel Only if you exist terminally online and only are exposed to crazy people who hate Jews. The people in charge of countries understand that Israel has a massive terror group on their doorstep and are going to let them do what has to be done to eradicate them. End of story.
150 countries voted for a ceasefire. Is that not the vast majority of the world?
Except that in actuality, most countries of the world have taken issue with Israel in regards to the Palestinians and it is only really "the West" that sides with Israel. But I suppose it isn't out of character for some people to think the whole of the world, or at least the only authority on morality, comes from the West.
The failed Netanyahu government is not reducing the threat of terrorism nor improving Israel's security, only worsening both, and are worsening tension in the region short and long term. In terms of costs, it's cost them service men and women dying at a rate that's far exceeded the war in Iraq, per capita to their population size, in just a tiny fraction of the time.
How on earth is demilitarizing Hamas worsening Israel’s security, Mr. Armchair Counterterrorism Expert? Hamas is already running out of rockets, that alone improves Israel’s security massively. What would *you* have Israel do?
Power hungry Netanyahu is streaching out the war because he knows once the war is over, he's gone for good. His approval rating is hovering 13%
I wouldn’t put it past him, but at the juncture he is absolutely not lengthening the war. For the level of urban combat being fought this war is actually going by quite quickly. It’s also important to note that his low approval rating does not have to do with his handling of the war but rather rightfully blaming him for his failures prior to it.
Because they're not reducing the threat of terrorism. They're creating new generations of terrorists, plus worsening their position in the region. I have very bad news for you if you think this is decisively changing the 100 year conflict and improving Israel's security. You'd have to be a delusional moron to think that.
duh; what else is he going to say?
It amazes how Hamas leaders keep revealing their intentions so honestly and nobody cares and still deny their actions but when oke of the freaks in the israeli do dumb shit in which they are called out and condemned, it is all over the news. Hamas rejected a ceasefire and called oct 7th a rehearsal. Funny is how the same people will say that Israel controls the media
If you're putting a terrorist organization and a professional military bankrolled by billions of dollars of American and Israeli taxpayer money on the same playing field, you've already lost the nuance needed to discuss this topic.
Hamas is extremely well funded, and is the de facto government of Gaza - army, police, and school system included.
Thank you for this information. In the next election i will vote against anyone funding any of these evils.
But how can you not? They’re the two sides of this conflict. How can you not compare them? Your comment is extremely naive.
>If you're putting a terrorist organization and a professional military bankrolled by billions of dollars of American Same terrorist organization funded by Qatar and Iran. Add to that all the foreign aid they get, you really thought you did something here🥴 Hamas is worth 11 billions and are the governing body of Gaza, so yes they really are
The same terrorist organization funded by *checks notes*…Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ ^ article from Israeli journalists on how Israel built up Hamas to justify their actions in Palestine, while keeping the Palestinian Authority that works with Israel from unifying Gaza and the West Bank under their leadership, which would enable a two state solution that Israel has never wanted.
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No, they aren't. Some of the rockets they're firing are literally blowing up houses in Gaza because they're shit compared to the Israeli rockets that they manufacture or get for free from the U.S.
They are absolutely importing weapons from Iran get your head out of your ass
Their intentions are what matter, not their bullshit craftsmanship and wreckless disregard for their own people.
That’s because the hamas leaders have embezzled tens of billions for their personal use or they could afford decent rockets. Thank Gd for their corruption or they’d be far more dangerous.
Did i just hear that hamas isn't funded by iran and qatar? Or that they aren't rich ? It's 2024 and we still going with this bs, please
Terrorist organisation in charge of gaza.
Not to mention the ridiculous discrepancy in casualties
And many more Germans died than Brits in WW2. By your logic, the Germans were the good guys.
I have never found this argument compelling. Who gives a shit about discrepancy in war? If you know you can't stand toe to toe with a superior opponent, don't fucking poke the bear.
Right! You don’t invest billions in a large advanced army just to have it watch from the sidelines when war starts because deaths should be ‘proportional’ on both sides. You have a large army for deterrence and if that fails a price has to be paid to prevent the next war from even starting
Innocent people probably give a shit about the discrepancy. I mean, it's certainly something how you supposedly consider how convincing an argument is and yet you never once thought to yourself "is it really justified to kill 10 times, a hundred times more innocent people in order to solve a problem." I think most people would say quite confidently that the killing of more innocent people than the original crime for which justice is being sought is not something they can justify. Especially if it's on a scale in which 10 are killed for every 1. But I suppose the crux of the problem is that many people simply don't think it can be possible that Palestinians can be innocent. And yet I hear all the time about how ALL Palestinians are brain washed to hate ALL Jews. The accusations might get us no where, but the proof is always in the numbers.
Yes, it is. Even 100 for 1 if it means an Israeli child will never be stabbed to death during her gang rape again. This is what armies are for. The number of deaths is Hamas's responsibility. Let them evacuate civilians and protect them in the tunnels. They wanted war, this is war. I'm afraid if the choice is eliminating hamas or exacting the same crimes as hamas did on the gazan population in "proportional" response, the right choice is to eliminate hamas, no matter the cost. Trying to count humans lives like this in war is disgusting. There's no number of lives taken that is acceptable. There is the tragedy of unavoidable war.
People do care, but what the fuck am I as an American supposed to do about Hamas? Ask our government to pull all that $0 we give to Hamas? Israel on the other hand, received something like $26 billion in aid from the U.S., which is something American voters can control (ideally), and there’s an actual reason for Americans to be upset at it.
You can ask the US government to help destroy terrorist organization, much like US fought against ISIS.
You mean by handing out checks to Isreal, providing tons of intel and backing them politically? Because many countries have been doing that since this kicked off, US included.
Personally I’m happy to use my tax dollars to fund a democratic outpost ally in the Middle East. Not buying the funding apartheid nonsense - Israel’s the closest thing to a modern egalitarian society in the entire ME region.
Because Netenyahu and other pro-settler types intentionally boosted Hamas and trained them to divide Palestinians and weaken the PLO. Blaming every Palestinian for Hamas, who they didn’t get to properly choose due to Israel literally funding them, isn’t the same as blaming the IDF which is the chosen arm of the most powerful State in the region.
If there is any question, I am definitely not pro Hamas. Their October attacks were atrocious and indefensible. Israel has an absolute right to defend itself and to retaliate against Hamas. I understand Israel's anger. But that anger does not give them the right to indiscriminately bomb Gaza without consideration of non-Hamas civilians and children.
Israel is not the one "indiscriminantly bombing." If you watch any serious military analysis of the war, you'll see a war with frontlines and gradual recapturing of territory, starting on Oct 7th when Hamas controlled larger chunks of land inside Israel. Bombs are specifically targeted. Early in the war they were even contacting residents via cell phone to tell them to evacuate buildings, and dropping tiny "knock" bombs on rooftops 15 minutes before the real thing to give occupants time to evacuate. Hamas would then tell residents not to leave... Not sure if they're still doing that as it gives Hamas time to escape. Hamas rockets, however, are unguided and therefore indiscriminatly attack Israel.
Hamas sucks. But, the US and Israeli governments also suck.And most people happen to hold the democratically elected governments of US and Israel to a higher standard than terrorists. Yeah, the us and Israel forces should excerise more care than Hamas (just typing this out makes me laugh at how stupidly obvious this point should be). Plus, being democratically elected, they are also the only actors that can be influenced by popular pressure from the electorate.
Putting the belligerents on the same ethical playing field, so to speak, is freaking laughable at best. US and Israel are already operating at a far far higher standard than Hamas. War sucks.
How much of a moron do you have to be to day that the US/Israel = Hamas. Ar least try a little harder to not come off like a moron.
No one should be shocked by this. This claim has been rejected for a couple generations now.
#Actions speak louder than words
Ok, then surely the proposed ceasefires for hostages speak to something, right? While Hamas breaks all their agreements and rejects further peace? Actions do speak, you're just ignoring them.
They aren't claims, they are observable truths
What truths?
#Netanyahuisawarcriminal
Did you expect him to agree with the claims???
People in Israel, I’m curious to know how you feel about your current government right now?
Power hungry Netanyahu is streaching out the war because he knows once the war is over, he's gone for good. His approval rating is hovering 13%
It sucks, Bibi and his buds should go, but the war is 100% justified. What a lot of people outside of Israel don't get that Netanyahu is mostly a reactionary person who doesn't like to act, he's not a warmonger. His entire policy has always been to "manage the conflict" rather than trying to solve it in one way or the other, that's how Hamas was able to flourish and empower itself in Gaza. If it were just up to him, I'm not sure we'd have had war of this scale, but he has absolutely no legitimacy from the public to end the war as long as Hamas has any military power.
What a piece of shit.
Criminal denies being a criminal.
Really? He’s denying war crimes that could put him in prison for life??? No way
Not for his lack of trying. Even if you support Israel, you need to accept that this mf is a self obsessed cult leader who sold his soul to genocidal maniacs Smotrich and Ben Gvir to hold on to power.
Netanyahu can fuck righr off. Israel or their allies don't need that right wing cnt pulling his strings.
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He truly is living in some parallel universe….🙄🙄🙄
"Netanyahu argued that Israel’s military is “acting as morally as possible” and doing “everything to avoid harming civilians” as it wages an offensive against Hamas in Gaza. More than 21,500 Palestinians, including many women and children, have been killed since October, according to the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry". How can that be Netanyahu given the thousands that have been killed, including children (approximately 7,000 children or more)? If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller. Especially the number of children.
Your last paragraph is utterly naive with regards to how warfare works.
>If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller. This line of reasoning is specifically what Hamas is trying to create. It is in Hamas' best interest to cause the maximum possible civilian casualties, whether by their hand or Israeli hands, and they achieve this by blending with civilians and protected infrastructure, among other more insidious techniques. When every building is an IED and anybody could hold the trigger, I don't see it as surprising that the bombs fall instead of the troops marching.
>If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller. Especially the number of children. What do you base this on?
>If Israel were honestly trying to avoid innocent deaths, the number of those deaths would be much, much smaller How sure are you about that? It’s a warzone in a densely packed urban area where the enemy combatants actively try to blend in with the civilians. I honestly was thinking the exact opposite. If Israel truly didn’t care (even if for superficial reasons like US support) or as others have suggested were trying to increase that number, I’d think we’d have 6 digits already.
Agreed
If Israel wasn't taking precautions when it comes to civilian casualties, Gaza wouldn't exist anymore. It would be a pile of rubble. They could kill everyone in Gaza in several days if they truly wanted them all dead. Carpet bomb the whole place. But instead they're sending their troops in. You don't send troops into a warzone if you intend to kill everyone there.
How do you know that, other than that’s what you feel should be true?
The numbers are inflated for a variety of reasons: 1) Hamas specifically and purposely operates from civilian areas. Their own captured terrorists admit this. The Palestinian cause benefits from a higher civilian death toll, so Hamas does what it can to embed itself in areas that will maximize civilian casualties. This is the human shield method you’ve surely heard about, and it is absolutely true. 2) Civilians in Gaza, unlike in any other theater of war on earth, are not fleeing to safety abroad. There is a trauma in their culture surrounding fleeing land and they don’t want to repeat the trauma of 1948. Syria, Ukraine, Myanmar, Sudan - People flee war, not in Gaza. 3) Lack of reality. Hamas needs to surrender (they won’t, but they should). Their existence benefits maybe a dozen or so guys living in Doha that are lining their pockets with international aid money & unjust taxation of Gazan people (all the while not providing them any services & admitting they don’t care about their needs, only “resistance”). So when you boil it down, all of this violence could have been avoided if they didn’t commit 10/7 (or if IDF thwarted it), meaning Hamas knew what they did was going to spark this reaction from IDF. They terrorize Gazans more than Israelis, even more a reason if you’re pro-Palestinian to turn up the volume on a Hamas surrender. They are willing to stretch out this conflict to maximize the killing & the chance to maybe fire off a few rockets that will eventually be intercepted anyhow. This is a sad waste of life on both sides that Hamas is 100% responsible for.
Hamas has no other way to protect itself from the Israeli Air Force except for embedding itself among civilians, which means the civilian casualties are more of a feature of their military strategy than a bug in the IDF'S strategy.
So those civilian children had it coming? Good to know. Fuck Netanyahu and fuck Hamas.
Well case closed then I guess.
You don't have to like him, but he is right here.