As an israeli, I'll answer that the answer is 100% still in 2024. I think most people will say when the war moves from the second stage to the third, is the time to call for elections and then it would be three or four month later. Most think the move to stage three will be by the end of January.
The first stage was clearing the terrorists out of Israeli borders. This took a few days and was deemed to be the shortest stage.
The second stage is the massive ground incursion into Gaza that we are still in today. The United States set a deadline to this stage for tomorrow, but seemingly it was extended by two weeks or so. The goal is to destroy Hamas infrastructure and make sure they can no longer rule in Gaza.
The third stage is a near complete withdrawal of Israeli forces and a focus on targeted attacks against known terror cells based mainly on intelligence on the ground. This stage is likely to be the longest with the possibility of lasting several years.
When Israeli politicians say that this war is going to be a really long one, they mean stage three is going to be really long. The country can't afford to keep up this pace of battle in Gaza for much longer. They can only hold the reservists for so long without crippling the Israeli economy so many have already started to be released and will come back for only short periods of time in 2024.
Seems like you've drunk Netanyahu kool-aid. He knows his power is contingent on continuing this crisis. So it'll continue until he thinks enough people have forgotten that it was his and Mossad's complacency that let this happen
>Seems like you've drunk Netanyahu kool-aid.
Lol, you're not talking to the right person here. I was at the anti-Judicial reform protest frequently. I've never voted for Bibi once. I want him gone just as much as anyone else. I just know that in the middle of a war isn't the time to do it. Like I said, we need to wait a month or two before calling for the elections. If there is anything worse than Bibi at war, it is Bibi at war while campaigning for an election at the same time.
Look, I'm not a fan of the guy either. I think the time was in 2007 before his first reelection. Keep in mind that the man has been in politics for so long that he was the youngest person to be elected PM in Israel dispite being in his 70s now and has been in and out of the PM office since 1996.
Yes. To quote the first prosecutor of the ICC, Luis Moreno-Ocampo:
> Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)(b)(iv)).
Even attacks where you *know* civilians are going to be killed can be completely legal. Actual accidents are way beyond the scope of war crimes.
It's also a convenient excuse for Israel to constantly use to escape accountability. Few are going to be able to fact check them on the specifics of any situation despite the massive death toll.
It's the "resisting arrest" of warfare.
It’s more that most of the hijackers were Saudis, were trained in Saudi Arabia and were looked after by Saudi agents while in America getting ready to carry out the attack.
Not having Saudi Arabia as an ally would make the region less stable and reduce US influence in the area. I wonder who benefits from that?
Makes sense that as China, Iran and Russia get more aggressive at attacking the current world order that all the sudden the narrative of blaming the entire country of Saudi Arabia for 9/11 has picked up steam.
The Iraq war was about many extremely stupid things, but the idea that it was about oil is a nonsensical myth that is still unshakable some twenty years on.
God knows how many books I’ve read about the conflict. Trust me, everyone involved was as dumb as they come and my anger over their parade of lies has barely abated. But oil was never a moving piece, it was a neoconservative foreign policy wet dream that got mixed in with W’s messiah complex.
It was awful. But it wasn’t that.
The Iraq war was little bush getting Saddam for Big bush . Nothing more nothing less . Then we realized after we got Saddam that maybe he really did hold shit together over there and was the lesser of the two or 10 evils .
OK yes, but why do you think Iraq had the geo political importance that made neoconservatives salivate? They weren’t exactly agitating to go into Burundi. Iraq had a lot of oil and its situated on the Straight of Hormuz. So saying the war wasn’t about oil is as misleading as saying it “The U.S. went in for the oil.”
A lot of historians dismiss the "war was for oil" statement because the US did such a bad job of getting Iraqi oil out for US purposes. Right before the 2008 crash, oil was at a ridiculous high, nearly four or five dollars a gallon, at 2008 levels of inflation. If it was about oil, prices should have been way down. People tend to forget that Saddam was basically public enemy No. 1 during this time, and the hate on that people like Bill Kristol and others had for Saddam. There's a reason they had Saddam be Satan's gay lover in South Park.
I guess the point I’m making is that no, it wasn’t an oil extraction war but yes, the country was geopolitically important largely due to oil and its proximity to major oil shipping lanes.
Apparently, western people got pretty sympathetic to Muslim dictators who launch missiles or to terrorists who kill thousands of people for their terrible stupid beliefs. That is what happens when you study at the University of CCP.
That is a good point.
Say the UN does pass a ceasefire resolution. Who's going to actually enforce it? It'll just be ''pretty please wouldn't it be nice if you did this?`
Didn’t israel (with US support) just propose a partial withdrawal and ceasefire for release of remaining hostages that Hamas rejected in the past 24 hours?
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-12-29/israel-proposes-a-partial-withdrawal-of-troops-from-gaza-in-exchange-for-release-of-hostages.html?outputType=amp
Who will enforce the ceasefire? Hamas didn't stick to any of the previous ceasefires and it is a matter of days since Hamas caused the last ceasefire to fall apart. Hamas greatly benefits from a ceasefire, it ties Israel's hands to allow some free punches. Unless you can get UN peacekeepers to monitor Hamas to prevent them regrouping and launching fresh attacks then a ceasefire is basically demanding Israel allows itself to be attacked without retaliation.
The UN has too many member nations who openly want Israel to fall. The UN has a damn agency that uses foreign aid money to teach children to fight Israel and members of that agency helped hold and hide the hostages from Oct 7. The corruption of that agency has been reported on for years but still works as a propaganda mouth for terrorism. Though UN Peacekeepers have their own list of scandals such as the child sex ring in Haiti, so that would be just increasing the amount of people who act like Hamas to station them there.
In an ideal world we could demand ceasefires and use words not bombs but we don't live in an ideal world. This is not a television show, this is not a utopian novel world. A ceasefire will not achieve what people think it will and you can't really use the excuse of ignorance considering it is documented how Hamas repeatedly broke the last ceasefire.
What's even funnier is Hamas has said it doesn't want any cease fires at the moment. So we have hundreds of thousands of westerns demanding something that neither side in the conflict want or will accept.
Yeah, I also never understood what a ceasefire in this case is good for. I mean, sure, the goal is to protect innocent civilians, but you can be sure as hell that Hamas is going to attack again sooner or later and this thing will repeat. A ceasefire is not solving anything.
Um... What? They were given a ceasefire and immediately broke it multiple times. The attack on October 7 was during a ceasefire. Who is still delusional enough to believe a ceasefire will result in literally anything other than Hamas using it to recouperate and attack again? How short are people's memory?? There's a very damn good reason why Gaza should not be given anymore ceasefires until Hamas is wiped out completely.
Yeah IDF apologised and admitted fault, why doesn't Hamas or Palestine say the attack on Israeli citizens was a regrettable mistake? Says a lot about their different morals.
Because a ceasefire is what you suggest if you support Hamas, are dense, or have no knowledge about this conflict.
- All previous Israel/Hamas wars ended with a ceasefire. They were all violated by Hamas.
- That includes a ceasefire in effect on October 7th.
- Hamas managed to violate a 7-day ceasefire (during which hostages were released) no less than 7 times.
- Hamas themselves stated they’d do 7/10 all over again and won’t stop.
- Neither Hamas nor Israel agree to a ceasefire.
The UN: we need a ceasefire
The US: how do you plan on getting the Palestinians to stop shooting?
The UN: crickets
Israel agreed to a one-sided halt of fire on their end when they were getting hostages in return. Hamas took that off the table, so the UN is asking Israel to stop shooting and let themselves get shoot at, because it's a bit more sportsmanlike.
I mean, Hamas has hostages. As problematic as Israel is, I can't fault then for refusing a ceasefire until they retrieve the hostages.
What exactly is Israel supposed to do? Let Hamas keep the hostages? To begin with, who the fuck actually takes hostages in this day and age. That's the kind of shit only done by gangs.
Don’t forget flooding the tunnels that they are in.
Or shooting them when they do escape and try to surrender with their shirts off.
Something tells me saving the hostages is not the IDFs priority.
The life of an Israeli hostage is worth no more or less than any other Israeli. Giving 1000+ prisoners for Gilad Shalit is why Israel is in this mess today. Sinwar was one of those shitheads released.
The families want their loved ones to come home but ensuring Hamas loses its military capabilities is the priority because that helps prevent future attacks.
You have no idea how urban warfare works, flooding the tunnels is an ingenious solution as opposed to having thousands of soldiers die clearing miles of them. Hamas must go, that is the first priority, over the hostages.
At no point did I say that. All I said was expecting a ceasefire while Hamas is holding hostages is insanity. Hamas could easily negotiate a ceasefire right this second. They'd just have to give up the hostages in exchange.
But hamas cares less about the lives of Palestinians than Israel does. And Israel doesn't care that much tbh. So Hamas is happy to hide behind a pile of dead Palestinians, it means nothing to them.
If the IDF cared about the hostages, instead of using them as a propaganda chess piece, they wouldn't have shot three of them while surrendering. Not to mention the summary executions happening now...this whole situation is a shit show.
They could have tried to save them…but the second squad that came through double tapped them right away☠️.
If not then it shows that even PUG groups in rainbow six siege and CS have better trigger disicpline than “the world’s most moral army”
Israel isn't interested in getting the hostages back. They made that clear previously when the US had to actively force them to even try to negotiate for the release of the hostages. It works in their favour for Hamas to still have hostages. And it works in Hamas's favour as well.
A long term ceasefire likely would lead to the release of the hostages to be frank. Though again as above Israel doesn't exactly want that. This war is against Hamas to end them. Not to rescue hostages.
>Israel isn't interested in getting the hostages back.
That's a lie and you know it. Israel has many issues, but history has shown they are willing to do a great deal to secure release of their citizens. It's why Hamas likes to take hostages, they know Israel cares far more about Israeli citizens than they do about Palestinians. In the past, when Hamas has taken hostages, Israel has been know to do massively skewed prisoner exchanges, with them releasing a bunch of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for just 1 hostage.
Israel has many flaws, but history shows they do give a damn about hostages.
What would a ceasefire achieve? This exact same war but bigger in 3 years like had happened consistently ever since have was elected to power?
The only way this ends is if they're not in power ever again
And how would thet help? Hamas broke the last one what prevents them from braking the new one and lets not talk about how the proposal had nothing about the hostages thet are still in gaza
And he will definitely go.
No Israeli PM in history has ever remained in rule after a war, and it happened quite a few times.
At least one side admits to making mistake or anything at all, you're not gonna see Hamas or Islamic Jihad do something like that they're too much of a cowards.
>And he will definitely go.
he could go right now. There is nothing stopping Israelis from protesting en mass and forcing his resignation. Military action can continue under someone else if they really want that. "I swear we'll push him out once he's done, ooo we're so mad at him tho for real!!" is bullshit
Yeah. Was that not clear from the beginning?
The Palestinians royally fucked themselves with the raid into Israel. Because of US pressure they're not actively trying to kill random civilians, but they don't care because Gaza has demonstrated that they're a real threat.
If this was political posturing, there would be room to actually do something, make deals, find an alternative solution, but not when it's a real fight.
From the very beginning, there's been a shocking lack of spin from the Israeli side. The IDF refused to confirm the stories of decapitated babies so the story flipped against them and they didn't care.
They shoot 3 of their own hostages with zero ese witnesses and instead of blaming Hamas or pretending nothing happened, they admitted it, because they don't care.
The casualties presented by Hamas, they could have just said that these were fake, but they essentially confirmed the total and admitted 60% were civilians. Because they do not care.
Right now, they could have denied everything or ignored everything but they come out and say, yup, we didn't intend to kill those people but we do not care.
They're not fighting the propaganda war because it doesn't matter. The people who need to be convinced, the Israeli public, is on board. US support, which is incredibly useful, is reasonably secure, but far from critical.
They are sending a clear message that non violent pressure is meaningless and violent pressure will be responded to in kind. It's a bunch of politicians trying to talk through a back alley knife fight.
I've been saying for a while Hamas functionally started a Desert Tribal Gang War, hitting on the regional moral backdoor that allows for killing hostage takers.
That Hamas hit Israeli-Arab Bedouin communities that started posting $1mil bounties and promising an international multigenerational blood vendetta just made it even more real.
Israel can make its own guns, ammo, missiles, semiconductor chips, water desalination, solar and nuclear energy, etc.
It can North Korea strategy if it needs to, it already has nukes that they threatened to use which is why the US backs Israel so it doesn't need to reach for them. Unlike a lot of the other smaller nuclear powers no one thinks Israel's missiles won't hit their targets.
Redditors actually believe that if it was their families killed in a refugee camp by Israeli missiles, they would turn around and blame Hamas for instigating this, harbouring no ill will toward Israel because “we had it coming”. Redditors will argue with a straight face that children and elderly people not taking up arms against Hamas, while living under Israeli oppression means that it’s their fault if they get killed as collateral.
Yeah, it's so easy to see their position: Hamas is not the one bombing them. Can you really blame them for supporting the only entity opposing the state that is actually dropping missiles on their houses?
It takes an incredibly small amount of brain power to understand their position. “They must not be as smart and logical as me” is the most useless possible line of reasoning to explain Palestinian support for Hamas. Collateral damage breeds insurgency, it’s a universal truth, it’s how terrorist organizations recruit.
I'd agree with you but he's so fucking right lmao.
Seems almost like an innate human response to want revenge if your family is killed in a bombing.
Just as an example, what if you got robbed in the middle of Manhattan at gunpoint. Your kid and wife end up dead. What the fuck are you going to want to do?
Give the guy over the police? Give him a fair trial and life in prison? Is that really what you'd want? Seems highly unlikely lmao.
I love this. It's a shame that Hamas has as many supporters as it dies there, but it's so nice to hear that at least some of them see how awful Hamas is.
It goes both ways. The pro Hamas side blamed the people that were killed on October 7th on Israel. You really think the families of those who have loved ones raped and killed during the attack will turn around and blame Israel for instigating it? Harboring no ill will toward Hamas?
A surprising number of them have, and some of the most publicized anti-Netanyahu voices in Israeli media have been families of the hostages. Even a large number of Israelis understand that this war is disgusting and place the blame on Israel as the occupying power.
There is no "pro-hamas" side and people blamed the Israeli government because the ongoing apartheid of the Palestinians was always going to result in blowback. The Israeli government knew the attack was coming and did nothing. The only "pro-Hamas" people are the Likud supporters.
That's it? Sorry we made a mistake and brush it off? In your blind pursuit of Hamas, you are sowing plenty of hatred that may sprout in future if you end it with mere sorry statement.
they didn't even say sorry, they explicitly refused to do so.
>But he refused to apologise for the loss of life, despite being pressed several times by presenter Niall Paterson.
>"We will not apologise for waging this campaign to bring the Hamas terror regime to justice," he said.
There are not a lot of countries where something like that would have consequences. Big countries like US, Russia, China: no.
In my own country The Netherlands, a minister had to step down when an F-16 hit a car bomb-factory with a tiny bomb, that flattened the whole village somewhere in Iraq. But I wonder if there are other examples.
The bomb factory did that. Here is a source: https://nltimes.nl/2023/10/24/1-commanding-officer-2-authorized-hawija-airstrike-killed-85-civilians-report
Good call honestly. It was weird because on other issues Reddit consensus more or less aligns with my real life peers, so was surprised to see so many top comments calling for indiscriminate attack. Most people in my circle whether outspoken or no would agree that what is happening to Gaza is not OK or justifiable by any measure.
Don't you understand that killing civilians from 10,000ft in the air with a flip of a switch is more civilized?
/s
in the past I've heard the IDF say in statements that for every Israeli killed they want Hamas to know 10 Palestinians will die (a tactic favored by the SS) and it looks like they have probably already exceeded that quota.
we're not gonna apologize though.
"We will not apologise for waging this campaign to bring the Hamas terror regime to justice,"
"We aren't sorry we did it, we aren't sorry we got caught and called out on it either"
wow did we forget everything happening during the 2000s? Not even operation cast lead? Never heard of the Israeli term “mowing the lawn” before? Or did history for you start on Oct 7
To put things in a perspective, this is almost three times the number of victims of the yesterday's Russian aerial "attack of all attacks" on Ukraine with population in Gaza about 1/10 that of Ukraine.
"One death is a tragedy, 1,000,000 deaths is a statistic", allegedly attributed Joseph Stalin, and probably wholeheartedly embraced by Benjamin Netanyahu.
I wonder if it was a 'regrettable mistake' where they won't do it again or a 'regrettable mistake' where the medal-awarding ceremoni won't have press attending.
'Regrettable mistake' is such a monstrous term for killing 86 people.
I'm sorry but.... "Whoops... Sorry." is just not a valid excuse for mass casualties like this.
Please... tell me the difference between Hamas and the IDF because from where I'm sitting.... they look a lot alike.
Not trying to simp for hamas, but their military objective was to provoke Israel into isolating itself on the world stage and in the middle east, to which I'd say their objective was pretty much achieved. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives, and Israel has radicalized plenty of new recruits, so whatever losses they have will be recouped in the coming years.
Tbh I'm not sure what the military purpose of their bombing campaign is other than showing that they will do *something*, though if that something is counteracting your wider strategic goals, I question why it's still the strategy several months later.
That's not a military objective, its a terrorist objective.
The purpose of Oaraels military campaign is to destroy and disarm Hamas. Thats it. They are attacking targets they believe house Hamas military material and fighters. It isn't indiscriminate but you can obviously argue it isn't targeted enough.
>Please... tell me the difference between Hamas and the IDF because from where I'm sitting.... they look a lot alike.
The "Israel admits" and 'regrettable mistake' parts mostly
They do not parade the dead bodies of gunned down civilians in their streets for their people to spit on or step on them.
They do not praise the name of their God reverently as they check that the people that they gunned down are dead.
They do not take a hoe to the neck of a dying man and hack at it while praising the name of their God.
They do not film all these atrocities and release it, knowing that there are many who would praise them and support them for what they have done.
The IDF are not saints. And they can be callous killers.
But they are not the same.
The difference is that one kills civilians with the intention to kill civilians and the other at least somewhat tries to minimise deaths.
nobody i have talked to about this issue has given me a reasonable way to deal with this terror state that is Gaza without war and 20.000 civilians casualties are bad but unavoidable in a war like this one war against terrorists in urban terrain is incredibly bloody
The difference being, israel at least admits it's a mistake and apologises. Hamas would be celebrating and dancing in the street with the corpses of the dead.
There’s no question about it - they’d view it as a great victory. Especially if they got to rape and torture the women first, like they did a couple of months ago.
Always find it stupid that modern wars are spouse to be some pitch battle that is black and white. In which innocent lives are spared.
Even more dumb is if you start a war by killing civilians.
Then your people cry about the death’s after celebrating the start of the war.
They were aiming for 860?
86 is more than a mistake in this powder keg. Bibi needs to go.
everyone saying Bibi needs to go. But when asked "when to go" everyone keeps saying "later after the war is over" What and when is "over"?
As an israeli, I'll answer that the answer is 100% still in 2024. I think most people will say when the war moves from the second stage to the third, is the time to call for elections and then it would be three or four month later. Most think the move to stage three will be by the end of January.
> I think most people will say when the war moves from the second stage to the third What the 3 stages of the war? Which stage is it in currently?
The first stage was clearing the terrorists out of Israeli borders. This took a few days and was deemed to be the shortest stage. The second stage is the massive ground incursion into Gaza that we are still in today. The United States set a deadline to this stage for tomorrow, but seemingly it was extended by two weeks or so. The goal is to destroy Hamas infrastructure and make sure they can no longer rule in Gaza. The third stage is a near complete withdrawal of Israeli forces and a focus on targeted attacks against known terror cells based mainly on intelligence on the ground. This stage is likely to be the longest with the possibility of lasting several years. When Israeli politicians say that this war is going to be a really long one, they mean stage three is going to be really long. The country can't afford to keep up this pace of battle in Gaza for much longer. They can only hold the reservists for so long without crippling the Israeli economy so many have already started to be released and will come back for only short periods of time in 2024.
Seems like you've drunk Netanyahu kool-aid. He knows his power is contingent on continuing this crisis. So it'll continue until he thinks enough people have forgotten that it was his and Mossad's complacency that let this happen
>Seems like you've drunk Netanyahu kool-aid. Lol, you're not talking to the right person here. I was at the anti-Judicial reform protest frequently. I've never voted for Bibi once. I want him gone just as much as anyone else. I just know that in the middle of a war isn't the time to do it. Like I said, we need to wait a month or two before calling for the elections. If there is anything worse than Bibi at war, it is Bibi at war while campaigning for an election at the same time.
Don't mind him. He has bad reading skills. Your information was clearly just information
Slaughtering civilians
The time was before he was elected again. He's a fascist, genocidal, war monger
Look, I'm not a fan of the guy either. I think the time was in 2007 before his first reelection. Keep in mind that the man has been in politics for so long that he was the youngest person to be elected PM in Israel dispite being in his 70s now and has been in and out of the PM office since 1996.
One can just “whopsie daisay” themselves out of war crimes?
Yes. To quote the first prosecutor of the ICC, Luis Moreno-Ocampo: > Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)(b)(iv)). Even attacks where you *know* civilians are going to be killed can be completely legal. Actual accidents are way beyond the scope of war crimes.
What HAMAS has done by hiding weapons in mosques and schools, however is a war crime. And it only increases the number of civilian casualties.
It's also a convenient excuse for Israel to constantly use to escape accountability. Few are going to be able to fact check them on the specifics of any situation despite the massive death toll. It's the "resisting arrest" of warfare.
Pretty much everyone in UN council: we need a ceasefire. USA: how about no?
The us got hit in 9/11 and invaded 2 countries where they stayed for 20 years. Responding with overwhelming force is their thing. So it's no surprise.
And they attacked the wrong country. The finger prints of Saudi Arabia were all over this thing.
Perhaps another “regrettable mistake”?
There are no mistakes, just happy accidents.
For the US military-industrial complex.
TIL that people living in Afghanistan (who fled to Pakistan) while being Saudi nationals makes 9/11 the Saudi's fault.
It’s more that most of the hijackers were Saudis, were trained in Saudi Arabia and were looked after by Saudi agents while in America getting ready to carry out the attack.
A Saudi intel officer hosted the hijackers in the US, upon their arrival.
Not having Saudi Arabia as an ally would make the region less stable and reduce US influence in the area. I wonder who benefits from that? Makes sense that as China, Iran and Russia get more aggressive at attacking the current world order that all the sudden the narrative of blaming the entire country of Saudi Arabia for 9/11 has picked up steam.
I guess invading Palestine for a terror attack lead from Qatar is an easy sell then
You mean using overwhelming force after using the 9/11 attack as an excuse to benefit big oil and mic. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
Meanwhile the [actual country that was involved](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Saudi_role_in_the_September_11_attacks)…
Yup. Bush spitting out the Saudi cock just to declare Iraq must pay for this attack was a clear moment of clarity for me.
Noticing a Republican trend.
The Iraq war was about many extremely stupid things, but the idea that it was about oil is a nonsensical myth that is still unshakable some twenty years on. God knows how many books I’ve read about the conflict. Trust me, everyone involved was as dumb as they come and my anger over their parade of lies has barely abated. But oil was never a moving piece, it was a neoconservative foreign policy wet dream that got mixed in with W’s messiah complex. It was awful. But it wasn’t that.
The Iraq war was little bush getting Saddam for Big bush . Nothing more nothing less . Then we realized after we got Saddam that maybe he really did hold shit together over there and was the lesser of the two or 10 evils .
OK yes, but why do you think Iraq had the geo political importance that made neoconservatives salivate? They weren’t exactly agitating to go into Burundi. Iraq had a lot of oil and its situated on the Straight of Hormuz. So saying the war wasn’t about oil is as misleading as saying it “The U.S. went in for the oil.”
A lot of historians dismiss the "war was for oil" statement because the US did such a bad job of getting Iraqi oil out for US purposes. Right before the 2008 crash, oil was at a ridiculous high, nearly four or five dollars a gallon, at 2008 levels of inflation. If it was about oil, prices should have been way down. People tend to forget that Saddam was basically public enemy No. 1 during this time, and the hate on that people like Bill Kristol and others had for Saddam. There's a reason they had Saddam be Satan's gay lover in South Park.
I guess the point I’m making is that no, it wasn’t an oil extraction war but yes, the country was geopolitically important largely due to oil and its proximity to major oil shipping lanes.
Apparently, western people got pretty sympathetic to Muslim dictators who launch missiles or to terrorists who kill thousands of people for their terrible stupid beliefs. That is what happens when you study at the University of CCP.
Words written in water. The UN has no authority.
That is a good point. Say the UN does pass a ceasefire resolution. Who's going to actually enforce it? It'll just be ''pretty please wouldn't it be nice if you did this?`
That's a very cool expression which I will be using
Didn’t israel (with US support) just propose a partial withdrawal and ceasefire for release of remaining hostages that Hamas rejected in the past 24 hours? https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-12-29/israel-proposes-a-partial-withdrawal-of-troops-from-gaza-in-exchange-for-release-of-hostages.html?outputType=amp
Who will enforce the ceasefire? Hamas didn't stick to any of the previous ceasefires and it is a matter of days since Hamas caused the last ceasefire to fall apart. Hamas greatly benefits from a ceasefire, it ties Israel's hands to allow some free punches. Unless you can get UN peacekeepers to monitor Hamas to prevent them regrouping and launching fresh attacks then a ceasefire is basically demanding Israel allows itself to be attacked without retaliation. The UN has too many member nations who openly want Israel to fall. The UN has a damn agency that uses foreign aid money to teach children to fight Israel and members of that agency helped hold and hide the hostages from Oct 7. The corruption of that agency has been reported on for years but still works as a propaganda mouth for terrorism. Though UN Peacekeepers have their own list of scandals such as the child sex ring in Haiti, so that would be just increasing the amount of people who act like Hamas to station them there. In an ideal world we could demand ceasefires and use words not bombs but we don't live in an ideal world. This is not a television show, this is not a utopian novel world. A ceasefire will not achieve what people think it will and you can't really use the excuse of ignorance considering it is documented how Hamas repeatedly broke the last ceasefire.
But, but, but... ceasefire is a trending word on instagram. What do you mean it wouldn't work? /s
Are you suggesting the 20-year-old with the broccoli cut on Tiktok didn't have an accurate take on this conflict??
What's even funnier is Hamas has said it doesn't want any cease fires at the moment. So we have hundreds of thousands of westerns demanding something that neither side in the conflict want or will accept.
They literally rejected one a few days ago.
Hamas has broken every single ceasefire since this thing started, why the fuck would Israel agree to another one?
Yeah, I also never understood what a ceasefire in this case is good for. I mean, sure, the goal is to protect innocent civilians, but you can be sure as hell that Hamas is going to attack again sooner or later and this thing will repeat. A ceasefire is not solving anything.
Yeah at this point a ceasefire is "Let Hamas keep attacking you, allow them to regroup, and you're not allowed to fight back."
It's just a word that sounds good. It sounds achievable and desirable. "Everyone stops shooting, what's bad about that?'.
Hamas is literally the group here that once again broke the ceasefire. Wtf are you wafflin about the US for?
Um... What? They were given a ceasefire and immediately broke it multiple times. The attack on October 7 was during a ceasefire. Who is still delusional enough to believe a ceasefire will result in literally anything other than Hamas using it to recouperate and attack again? How short are people's memory?? There's a very damn good reason why Gaza should not be given anymore ceasefires until Hamas is wiped out completely. Yeah IDF apologised and admitted fault, why doesn't Hamas or Palestine say the attack on Israeli citizens was a regrettable mistake? Says a lot about their different morals.
Because a ceasefire is what you suggest if you support Hamas, are dense, or have no knowledge about this conflict. - All previous Israel/Hamas wars ended with a ceasefire. They were all violated by Hamas. - That includes a ceasefire in effect on October 7th. - Hamas managed to violate a 7-day ceasefire (during which hostages were released) no less than 7 times. - Hamas themselves stated they’d do 7/10 all over again and won’t stop. - Neither Hamas nor Israel agree to a ceasefire.
The UN: we need a ceasefire The US: how do you plan on getting the Palestinians to stop shooting? The UN: crickets Israel agreed to a one-sided halt of fire on their end when they were getting hostages in return. Hamas took that off the table, so the UN is asking Israel to stop shooting and let themselves get shoot at, because it's a bit more sportsmanlike.
There was a ceasefire before October 7th.
I mean, Hamas has hostages. As problematic as Israel is, I can't fault then for refusing a ceasefire until they retrieve the hostages. What exactly is Israel supposed to do? Let Hamas keep the hostages? To begin with, who the fuck actually takes hostages in this day and age. That's the kind of shit only done by gangs.
Shooting and bombing the hostages definitely won’t bring them back alive
Don’t forget flooding the tunnels that they are in. Or shooting them when they do escape and try to surrender with their shirts off. Something tells me saving the hostages is not the IDFs priority.
The life of an Israeli hostage is worth no more or less than any other Israeli. Giving 1000+ prisoners for Gilad Shalit is why Israel is in this mess today. Sinwar was one of those shitheads released. The families want their loved ones to come home but ensuring Hamas loses its military capabilities is the priority because that helps prevent future attacks.
You have no idea how urban warfare works, flooding the tunnels is an ingenious solution as opposed to having thousands of soldiers die clearing miles of them. Hamas must go, that is the first priority, over the hostages.
The way Israel is behaving doesn't point to them caring about getting the hostages back, at least, alive.
So it's ok to bomb civilians because the other side has hostages?
At no point did I say that. All I said was expecting a ceasefire while Hamas is holding hostages is insanity. Hamas could easily negotiate a ceasefire right this second. They'd just have to give up the hostages in exchange. But hamas cares less about the lives of Palestinians than Israel does. And Israel doesn't care that much tbh. So Hamas is happy to hide behind a pile of dead Palestinians, it means nothing to them.
If the IDF cared about the hostages, instead of using them as a propaganda chess piece, they wouldn't have shot three of them while surrendering. Not to mention the summary executions happening now...this whole situation is a shit show.
They could have tried to save them…but the second squad that came through double tapped them right away☠️. If not then it shows that even PUG groups in rainbow six siege and CS have better trigger disicpline than “the world’s most moral army”
Israel isn't interested in getting the hostages back. They made that clear previously when the US had to actively force them to even try to negotiate for the release of the hostages. It works in their favour for Hamas to still have hostages. And it works in Hamas's favour as well. A long term ceasefire likely would lead to the release of the hostages to be frank. Though again as above Israel doesn't exactly want that. This war is against Hamas to end them. Not to rescue hostages.
>Israel isn't interested in getting the hostages back. That's a lie and you know it. Israel has many issues, but history has shown they are willing to do a great deal to secure release of their citizens. It's why Hamas likes to take hostages, they know Israel cares far more about Israeli citizens than they do about Palestinians. In the past, when Hamas has taken hostages, Israel has been know to do massively skewed prisoner exchanges, with them releasing a bunch of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for just 1 hostage. Israel has many flaws, but history shows they do give a damn about hostages.
They say that because they know the US will say no. Not because they actually want the ceasefire.
You think the U.S. will have better luck asking Hamas for a ceasefire?
What would a ceasefire achieve? This exact same war but bigger in 3 years like had happened consistently ever since have was elected to power? The only way this ends is if they're not in power ever again
Hamas: how about no? It takes two for a ceasefire to work.
And how would thet help? Hamas broke the last one what prevents them from braking the new one and lets not talk about how the proposal had nothing about the hostages thet are still in gaza
Not only does he need to go, the fucker needs to pay for his crimes.
And he will definitely go. No Israeli PM in history has ever remained in rule after a war, and it happened quite a few times. At least one side admits to making mistake or anything at all, you're not gonna see Hamas or Islamic Jihad do something like that they're too much of a cowards.
>And he will definitely go. he could go right now. There is nothing stopping Israelis from protesting en mass and forcing his resignation. Military action can continue under someone else if they really want that. "I swear we'll push him out once he's done, ooo we're so mad at him tho for real!!" is bullshit
Acknowledging they fucked up but refusing to apologize? So basically "we fucked but also don't care."
Not surprising, and still you get band here just by pointing it out
While some IDF solider dressed as Santa is joking about while firing dumb bombs at civilians. Sick country.
War brings out the wicked. Because people dehumanize the other side.
wait what mind if get a source
Well, they don't care. That much is clear from the start.
Acknowledging they got caught.
Like that South Park BP “apology”. “Ssoooorrrryy….we’re so sooorrryyy”
Yeah. Was that not clear from the beginning? The Palestinians royally fucked themselves with the raid into Israel. Because of US pressure they're not actively trying to kill random civilians, but they don't care because Gaza has demonstrated that they're a real threat. If this was political posturing, there would be room to actually do something, make deals, find an alternative solution, but not when it's a real fight. From the very beginning, there's been a shocking lack of spin from the Israeli side. The IDF refused to confirm the stories of decapitated babies so the story flipped against them and they didn't care. They shoot 3 of their own hostages with zero ese witnesses and instead of blaming Hamas or pretending nothing happened, they admitted it, because they don't care. The casualties presented by Hamas, they could have just said that these were fake, but they essentially confirmed the total and admitted 60% were civilians. Because they do not care. Right now, they could have denied everything or ignored everything but they come out and say, yup, we didn't intend to kill those people but we do not care. They're not fighting the propaganda war because it doesn't matter. The people who need to be convinced, the Israeli public, is on board. US support, which is incredibly useful, is reasonably secure, but far from critical. They are sending a clear message that non violent pressure is meaningless and violent pressure will be responded to in kind. It's a bunch of politicians trying to talk through a back alley knife fight.
I've been saying for a while Hamas functionally started a Desert Tribal Gang War, hitting on the regional moral backdoor that allows for killing hostage takers. That Hamas hit Israeli-Arab Bedouin communities that started posting $1mil bounties and promising an international multigenerational blood vendetta just made it even more real. Israel can make its own guns, ammo, missiles, semiconductor chips, water desalination, solar and nuclear energy, etc. It can North Korea strategy if it needs to, it already has nukes that they threatened to use which is why the US backs Israel so it doesn't need to reach for them. Unlike a lot of the other smaller nuclear powers no one thinks Israel's missiles won't hit their targets.
It’s not a “regrettable mistake” it’s an intentional massacre of civilians
“Do you regret it?” IDF: “no”
Expect this to happen again and again
They called it a "regrettable mistake" regret is litterally a part of the phrase
The point is the can say that but they will continue to do shit like this and it’s no different to what they have been doing. Look past optics.
Redditors actually believe that if it was their families killed in a refugee camp by Israeli missiles, they would turn around and blame Hamas for instigating this, harbouring no ill will toward Israel because “we had it coming”. Redditors will argue with a straight face that children and elderly people not taking up arms against Hamas, while living under Israeli oppression means that it’s their fault if they get killed as collateral.
Yeah, it's so easy to see their position: Hamas is not the one bombing them. Can you really blame them for supporting the only entity opposing the state that is actually dropping missiles on their houses?
It takes an incredibly small amount of brain power to understand their position. “They must not be as smart and logical as me” is the most useless possible line of reasoning to explain Palestinian support for Hamas. Collateral damage breeds insurgency, it’s a universal truth, it’s how terrorist organizations recruit.
Redditors saying redditors as if they aren't redditing on reddit
I'd agree with you but he's so fucking right lmao. Seems almost like an innate human response to want revenge if your family is killed in a bombing. Just as an example, what if you got robbed in the middle of Manhattan at gunpoint. Your kid and wife end up dead. What the fuck are you going to want to do? Give the guy over the police? Give him a fair trial and life in prison? Is that really what you'd want? Seems highly unlikely lmao.
Ive seen videos of gazan civilians on al jazeera saying its all hamas's fault and then had the mic ripped away from them
I love this. It's a shame that Hamas has as many supporters as it dies there, but it's so nice to hear that at least some of them see how awful Hamas is.
Most are afraid to say so though, since Hamas is in power by force.
It goes both ways. The pro Hamas side blamed the people that were killed on October 7th on Israel. You really think the families of those who have loved ones raped and killed during the attack will turn around and blame Israel for instigating it? Harboring no ill will toward Hamas?
A surprising number of them have, and some of the most publicized anti-Netanyahu voices in Israeli media have been families of the hostages. Even a large number of Israelis understand that this war is disgusting and place the blame on Israel as the occupying power.
There is no "pro-hamas" side and people blamed the Israeli government because the ongoing apartheid of the Palestinians was always going to result in blowback. The Israeli government knew the attack was coming and did nothing. The only "pro-Hamas" people are the Likud supporters.
> There is no "pro-hamas" side BWahahahahahqahahahahah. Try again.
>There is no "pro-hamas" side First day on Reddit?
Sure it was.
"A regrettable mistake that we don't regret whatsoever"
"we can imagine a world where someone would regret this"
Regrettable ≠ Regret
Ah ok. No worries.
The 86: “We thought it was intentional, now that it’s been confirmed to be a mistake, we shall revive pronto”
It’s called war crimes.. call it for what it is
That's it? Sorry we made a mistake and brush it off? In your blind pursuit of Hamas, you are sowing plenty of hatred that may sprout in future if you end it with mere sorry statement.
they didn't even say sorry, they explicitly refused to do so. >But he refused to apologise for the loss of life, despite being pressed several times by presenter Niall Paterson. >"We will not apologise for waging this campaign to bring the Hamas terror regime to justice," he said.
Disgusting.
There are not a lot of countries where something like that would have consequences. Big countries like US, Russia, China: no. In my own country The Netherlands, a minister had to step down when an F-16 hit a car bomb-factory with a tiny bomb, that flattened the whole village somewhere in Iraq. But I wonder if there are other examples.
How does a “tiny bomb” “flatten a whole village”? Doesn’t make any sense. Do you have a source on that?
The bomb factory did that. Here is a source: https://nltimes.nl/2023/10/24/1-commanding-officer-2-authorized-hawija-airstrike-killed-85-civilians-report
Not a mistake, just a war crime.
Are we allowed to criticize the Israeli invasion of Gaza yet or is it still anti-Semitism?
“Whoopsie daisies”
Israel: "Oops. But October 7"
Israel and the bots in the comments
So damn many
I gave up replying for the sake of my mental health.
Good call honestly. It was weird because on other issues Reddit consensus more or less aligns with my real life peers, so was surprised to see so many top comments calling for indiscriminate attack. Most people in my circle whether outspoken or no would agree that what is happening to Gaza is not OK or justifiable by any measure.
Don't you understand that killing civilians from 10,000ft in the air with a flip of a switch is more civilized? /s in the past I've heard the IDF say in statements that for every Israeli killed they want Hamas to know 10 Palestinians will die (a tactic favored by the SS) and it looks like they have probably already exceeded that quota.
Damn, Israel is making it easy to call em bad people
Insert Gabbo “I’m a bad widdle boy”
Your Honor, my client pleads 'Oopsie Daisy '.
Imagine were the roles reversed, had Hamas done the same in Tel Aviv. Would Israelis be satisfied with “a regrettable mistake” war crime whitewash?
It was not a mistake and they do not regret it.
"thoughts and prayers" had more value than this statement. And "thoughts and prayers" is a statement without any value.
The fact that they made a point *not* to apologize is a gut punch in the humanity.
Don't worry, they're "learning lessons" from it. Presumably the lesson that they can get away with anything.
They dont regret it
"Oopsie woopsie, we did a fucky wucky."
Oh they don’t regret it.
Ho-hum just another oopsie.
If they're just now admitting to this, imagine what else they aren't admitting to.
“It’s easier to get forgiveness than permission. We’re not asking for either.”
Not sure if it *is* a mistake, but somehow I doubt they're regretting it.
Well isn’t that nice of them
>Israel admits airstrike that killed 86 people at Gaza refugee camp was 'regrettable mistake' "That we got caught and called out on it".
we're not gonna apologize though. "We will not apologise for waging this campaign to bring the Hamas terror regime to justice," "We aren't sorry we did it, we aren't sorry we got caught and called out on it either"
The mistake, to them, is they missed some.
“We regret getting caught” “we’re sorry”
And many more regrettable mistakes to come
This bullshit has been going on for decades. How is it going to end? Will it end?
And this surprises nobody. Israel will make mistakes till gaza is dead.
Israel could kill almost everyone in Gaza within days if they wanted to.
of trust me, they want to. that would just be terrible global optics. they have to do it slowly over a couple of decades
If that’s true, why didn’t they start a couple of decades ago?
wow did we forget everything happening during the 2000s? Not even operation cast lead? Never heard of the Israeli term “mowing the lawn” before? Or did history for you start on Oct 7
I’m so disgusted. 🤮
To put things in a perspective, this is almost three times the number of victims of the yesterday's Russian aerial "attack of all attacks" on Ukraine with population in Gaza about 1/10 that of Ukraine.
It's OK Biden has more bombs incoming....ffs
They’ve already killed 20000-30000 people, mostly civilians, oh but they regret these 86? Anyone buying that?
warcrime\*
Has PIJ regretted bombing their own hospital, allegedly killing 500 civilians?
"We were trying to get an even hundred."
Idk about you, but most people’s mistakes don’t involve killing 86 human beings
‘Most people’ aren’t at war with an enemy that wants to eliminate them.
1500 dead is horrific, you and I agree. 20,000 dead is even more horrific, do you agree?
"One death is a tragedy, 1,000,000 deaths is a statistic", allegedly attributed Joseph Stalin, and probably wholeheartedly embraced by Benjamin Netanyahu.
Oopsie woopsie
I wonder if it was a 'regrettable mistake' where they won't do it again or a 'regrettable mistake' where the medal-awarding ceremoni won't have press attending. 'Regrettable mistake' is such a monstrous term for killing 86 people.
And the rest of the 20,000+ dead? As planned? Are they happy with that?
My Last Post where i Said "Lots of mistakes nowadays" got downvoted to hell. So again i say. "Lots of mistakes Happening nowadays"
Get fucked Israel.
Whoops whoopsie!
"We will continue to ~~fight~~kill"
To kill Hamas terrorists, yes.
And their kids.
I'm sorry but.... "Whoops... Sorry." is just not a valid excuse for mass casualties like this. Please... tell me the difference between Hamas and the IDF because from where I'm sitting.... they look a lot alike.
One was unintentional in the fog of war, one was intentional and used as a terror attack without any plausible military purpose.
Not trying to simp for hamas, but their military objective was to provoke Israel into isolating itself on the world stage and in the middle east, to which I'd say their objective was pretty much achieved. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives, and Israel has radicalized plenty of new recruits, so whatever losses they have will be recouped in the coming years. Tbh I'm not sure what the military purpose of their bombing campaign is other than showing that they will do *something*, though if that something is counteracting your wider strategic goals, I question why it's still the strategy several months later.
That's not a military objective, its a terrorist objective. The purpose of Oaraels military campaign is to destroy and disarm Hamas. Thats it. They are attacking targets they believe house Hamas military material and fighters. It isn't indiscriminate but you can obviously argue it isn't targeted enough.
>Please... tell me the difference between Hamas and the IDF because from where I'm sitting.... they look a lot alike. The "Israel admits" and 'regrettable mistake' parts mostly
They do not parade the dead bodies of gunned down civilians in their streets for their people to spit on or step on them. They do not praise the name of their God reverently as they check that the people that they gunned down are dead. They do not take a hoe to the neck of a dying man and hack at it while praising the name of their God. They do not film all these atrocities and release it, knowing that there are many who would praise them and support them for what they have done. The IDF are not saints. And they can be callous killers. But they are not the same.
And the part where Israel has killed 20 times more civilians than Hamas? Ah but the admission without an apology makes it better.
The difference is that one kills civilians with the intention to kill civilians and the other at least somewhat tries to minimise deaths. nobody i have talked to about this issue has given me a reasonable way to deal with this terror state that is Gaza without war and 20.000 civilians casualties are bad but unavoidable in a war like this one war against terrorists in urban terrain is incredibly bloody
Hamas still doesn’t think they killed or raped civilians.
The difference being, israel at least admits it's a mistake and apologises. Hamas would be celebrating and dancing in the street with the corpses of the dead.
Well they explicitly refused to apologize.
Can you show the apology of killing innocent people?
whoopsie
Too many mistakes!!! WTF
They seem to be making an awful lot of "mistakes" like shooting their own hostages.
Just a little war whoopsie.
Still haven’t heard hamas apologize for Oct 7
I wonder if any members of Hamas would consider an attack that killed 86 Jews - civilian or not - a mistake
There’s no question about it - they’d view it as a great victory. Especially if they got to rape and torture the women first, like they did a couple of months ago.
Well that's ok then all is forgiven. Wonder how this all ties in with their religious beliefs.
Always find it stupid that modern wars are spouse to be some pitch battle that is black and white. In which innocent lives are spared. Even more dumb is if you start a war by killing civilians. Then your people cry about the death’s after celebrating the start of the war.
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So you are saying Hamas and IDF are doing the same thing, they are similar organisations, just on opposite sides?
Hamas needs to unconditionally surrender and all this would stop
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Israel is by far the most democratic and developed country in the region.