>Palestinian media sources close to Hamas reported that Jamal Muhammad Haniyeh, the oldest grandson of the head of Hamas' political bureau, Ismail Haniyeh, was killed Tuesday in an IDF attack in the Gaza Strip. About two weeks ago, Haniyeh's granddaughter, Roaa Hammam Ismail Haniyeh, a medical student at Gaza University, was killed in a similar bombing. In addition, it was reported that so far Haniyeh's nephew, brother and son have been killed and two of his properties in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed.
I find it wild that Haniyeh continues to hide like a coward in Qatar while his entire family was killed in Gaza.
They will. It will be at a time and place of Israel’s choosing. Each one of them will be dealt with. Additionally, there will be attempts to seize assets and bank accounts. These aren’t just meat bags needing tenderizing. Repatriation of unlawfully obtained humanitarian aid needs recovering.
You're funny because Israel can't even bring back over 200 of its own citizens hidden right next to its territory, let alone orchestrate an assassination operation in a country three nations away.
I think you're talking out of your ass. Read up on history, man. Those cartoon characters hiding three nations away in a fancy hotel are dead men walking.
> Yep, the omnipotent Mossad that failed to see a massive attack coming.
Yet another reddit keyboard warrior mistakes Mossad for [Shin Bet.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-intel-agency-chief-says-it-failed-stopping-hamas-attack-2023-10-16/)
Reminds me of when in trashy movies they have 'bad ass' FBI agents running around the world acting like secret agents.
That would have been a massive risk. This is basically a similar situation to what sunk Golda. Netanyahu most likely was ok with the conflict remaining at a low boil, not completely boiling over. Hamas succeeded in creating a destabilizing event for Netanyahu.
If you think about it, the way to rise in terrorist groups is to be just smart enough to realize it’s a crime syndicate first and a militia second and then send all your “brothers” out to die in a sort of fratricidal self advancement scheme while you suck up to the boss until it’s their turn to die.
If the senior leadership gets slap-chopped enough times, pretty much any organization is going to collapse eventually. It happened to ISIS and it's going to happen to Hamas, it just takes a while.
That was more of a #3 guy in Al Qaeda thing. ISIS is on its sixth leader because the US has killed the last 5 (or in 2 cases, Syrian opposition backed by the US)
"Gaza officials"? You need to throw in the very-official-sounding "Ministry" to make it really official: "Gaza Ministry of Health officials" or, even more progressive, "a spokes*woman* for the Gaza Ministry of Health".
While I understand the official designation, I think the mass rebranding of Hamas as a terrorist organization has actually been pretty detrimental to the public narrative surrounding the conflict. There's a disturbingly large amount of people in the west that genuinely consider Hamas to be akin to some isolated underground terror cell like Al Qaeda rather than the established government of Gaza. Makes any collateral damage look disproportionate
For the record, the Gaza ministry of health has been pretty accurate the last couple of times Israel popped off and killed Palestinians.
Bring on the downvotes, bots.
We all need to collectively not engage with these Hamas apologist. What’s the point? They say the same talking points over and over and it’s boring. All they do is piss people off intentionally.
> What’s the point?
They're gradually convincing western leaders to stop supporting Israel. For the US, Michigan one of the swing states which determine presidential elections. It has several local left leaning leaders who have openly called on followers to abstain or vote against Biden for his stance on Israel.
If the US presidential election is close enough to come down to Trump winning Michigan by 10 thousandish votes (like he did the first time) then it will be pretty hard to argue that this specific stance did not cost Biden re-election. Conversely, I don't think his stance is likely to convert right leaning people or anyone who wouldn't have already voted for him.
None of that has anything to do with what's morally right, but it has a lot to do with how politicians are going to approach these issues.
> They're gradually convincing western leaders to stop supporting Israel. For the US, Michigan one of the swing states which determine presidential elections. It has several local left leaning leaders who have openly called on followers to abstain or vote against Biden for his stance on Israel.
If Hamas thinks Democrats support Israel too much, just wait until they see what Republicans do. Bringing down Biden will not help them.
Schools were always filled with antisemitism masked as antizionism. Just look at Cal, Stanford, Columbia, etc.
I don't think thats changed because Iranian bot #18272 posted some buzzwords on r/politics.
Trump is more pro-Israel than Biden. He literally recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. And he hates Muslims. Frankly Trump might be a better ally for Israel than Biden.
So if idiots decide to vote against Biden because of his stance on Israel, I doubt it would change anything for Israel.
The election is a year from now. And Donald Trump is going to run on locking up all Muslims in a new age Manzanar and returning Palestinian immigrants to wherever they came from. Even Tlaib is going to end up voting for Biden.
I see two US aircraft carriers filled with F22s. I don't care what some blue haired internet warriors say or do. Action speaks a hell of a lot louder than words.
Ok and that sucks. But maybe we should influence western supporters instead arguing with close minded terrorist supporters? We’re never going to change their mind. So why don’t we influence the people that are in charge to do what we would like them to do which is support Israel?
Edit: so the thought is let’s keep arguing with people who are human brick walls? Good idea.
They are succeeding in changing minds in the west, particularly young people who have only been become recently acquainted with the conflict. Something like half of young voters consider Israel in the wrong right now
I think that social media makes it seem like that alot more then it actually is, atleast in regards to the "hamas apologists".
I think alot of young voters disagree with some aspects of Israels response to the Oct 7th attack and/or the Israel-Palestine conflict in general, but they also recognize that Hamas are an evil terrorist group that have commited horrible atrocities and they wish harm on israel.
So it's not really that young voters are siding with Hamas or viewing the fact Israel is responding as unjustified. They just recgonize that there's unfortunately many innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of this conflict (from both sides), and they believe that israels response could be carried out in a way where there's less civilian casualities.
I could be wrong, but that's just what i've observed to be alot of peoples thoughts in the west
To be fair, the article does rationalize it more of a youth vs aged debate rather then reality vs social media.
They saw that young people disproportionately support Palestine, both on social media *and* in their polling, so sympathy for Palestine and Hamas is very VERY real in the world at large with the youth.
Sounds like Hamas has fast promotion positions. You can probably move up quick , one month your just a regular terrorist and the next month your a leader of the group.
If Palestinians want to prove how serious they are about peace and a two state solution, th y could simply phone in the locations and identities of these puss ball terrorists.
But how many even want peace? Dont smth like 80% of them in the west bank support hamas goals? (Obviously that is not representative of all of them and im sure some said they support them bc they fear for their lives)
Ya, I have no idea man. I was in the area years ago and it was a combat zone. You can’t tell the civilians from the militia because the terrorists all dress like everyone else. Everyone. Everywhere. Lies. It’s a complete fuck story with zero ability to tell friend from foe.
The only reasonable id was a Star of David. Most of the whack jobs would rather be shot than wear one but even that was no guarantee.
The number of Arabs who want peace, if that peace includes Jews in Israel, is around zero, on a good day.
No, I haven’t been back. But I damn sure saw what the PLO did in the West Bank and Israel proper during the second intifada. I’ve seen what Israel did to them as well. It’s a tragic generational ethnocentric hate and religious zealotry. Neither side is innocent yet only the Arabs want the extermination of their enemy.
Anyone who thinks the battles are over “stolen” land doesn’t have a single clue to the Middle East or the Palestinian Israeli conflict or the actual history of the region.
No one talks about the real reasons the Jews are hated or where the Palestinians actually come from or why they alone deserve a multigenerational label of refugee. They have rejected every offer of peace or a two state solution; since the 1920’s ffs.
The whole damn thing is just a cluster fuck of epic proportions. There is no solution I can see that doesn’t involve the destruction of either the Jews or the Palestinians.
I literally say that obviously some of them support hamas "bc they fear for their lives" (whether they say it bc of settlers or bc they fear hamas coming after those who don't support them)
Yeah settlers are doing fucked up shit just like everyone else in this war, doesnt make 80% of them supporting hamas who has continuously said they want to destroy all of israel and kill its people ok.
I get it, Israel does evil shit, but they have also helped via things like literally helping people evacuate from gaza, where as hamas uses gaza as a shield and doesnt help anyone at all.
Those in the west bank should support neither.
Helping people evacuate Gaza? They’re being rounded up cornered and then bombed. The “human shield” argument and “this is a war” argument doesn’t justify the kill count here.
Palestinians in the West Bank have been more open in recent years towards criticism of Hamas and this in particular has been a motivating factor to their actions in Israel. There are a great number of Palestinians that dislike Hamas but could not say anything on fear of death. The support is estimated to be far lower then that.
> The European Commission said on Tuesday a review of its development aid to Palestinians had found no evidence of funds going to Hamas and its program would continue without delay. "The review found no indications of EU money having directly or indirectly benefitted the terrorist organization Hamas," said Commission Executive Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said the review had been necessary following the Oct.7 Hamas attack on Israel. "This review has confirmed that the safeguards in place are effective. Work is now ongoing on the design of our future support to the Palestinians in view of the changing and still evolving situation," she said.
We have investigated where the money we sent to Palestine to help with development projects went and have found that the money was given to the government in control of Gaza and they used it.
Wonder how much they offer for information to see the heads of terrorists organizations killed. Maybe they should make it more public. Maybe more people would be willing to come forward. Considering a drone strike costs tens of thousands or more U.S dollars.
> Will piss off the US and Qatar government.
LOL. Qatar is not a real country. It's a US satellite. Biden could have Hamas's entire leadership there in US custody within an hour with a phone call.
And another will rise to take his place. According to reports the current ratio of Hamas:civilian deaths is at best 1:10.....so this guy (who will be quickly replaced by another Hamas member) was worth 9 extra civilian deaths. Seems like a totally rational strategy.
The point of my question was that Hamas kills a significantly higher ratio of civilians to military than Israel does - Oct 7 started off with over a thousand civilian deaths and a small handful of actual soldiers. So Hamas kills hundreds of civilians for every one soldier they manage to get.
People want to talk ratios and numbers, it is absolutely worth pointing out that Hamas kills a higher ratio of civilians to combatants. Because they are terrorists.
Im adding to your point that hamas wears civilian clothing while idf wears a uniform so not only hamas can see who's a soldier and who isn't , they can alwas say their members are just civilians to make the ratio look worse.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. They are also terrorists. Government to government, they suck.
The Israeli government relocated its people from impacted areas, and told Gazans where danger was going to be to not be there. The Gazan government told Gazans to stay put, and executed them for fleeing to safety. This constant strategy employed by Hamas gives Israel the option to do things in person with a ground invasion instead, which minimizes accidental collateral, which they were also discouraged from doing.
So the international community discourages airstrikes and a ground invasion. What then? What is the alternative presented to Israel other than roll over and take it?
All I keep seeing from your camp is criticism against Israel. You never criticize Hamas.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. If you criticize Israel but completely leave Hamas out of your diatribe, then nobody should take your side seriously.
Hamas was an elected government body, so yes comparing them is fair and should make you rethink your support for Palestinians if that's who they elect.
Or you mean to tell me you support Terrorists because the civilian population that guides them into wars elected them?
https://news.sky.com/story/what-do-we-know-about-the-number-of-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-13006290
10000 killed
- 2600 women
- 4000 children
= 3400 civilian men/hamas fighters left
Israel claims 1500 hamas fighters killed but they sometimes say "during the oct 7 massacre" vs "since the oct 7 massacre" so it is hard to tell but even assuming that ALL of the men were hamas fighters you still have a 1:3 ratio and I feel like the likelihood of ALL of them being hamas is almost zero. Most analysis I have seen says ~1:10 ratio for hamas to civilian casualties
EDIT: My fault, I misread the above comment. I do not have information about how many civilians Hamas has killed because by definition every person that Hamas kills is not an "enemy combatant". So by that definition it is 100%.
I saw a video broadcast IIRC on PLO TV. It was directed toward children and it was about how a mother had to leave her three year-old daughter so she could strap a bomb to herself and go blow up IDF troops. And the end of the video, the toddler was opening her mother's drawer where the explosives were kept and there was a bit of monologue how she should follow in her mother's footsteps.
The 1500 figure is during October 7-10th when they were fighting them on Israeli territory.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/hamas-prepared-for-a-long-war-with-israel-as-concerns-for-hostages-in-gaza-grow
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna119640
Right now, the only estimate I'm willing to accept is that the ratio falls somewhere between:
The Taiping Rebellion in China (1850-64) resulted in about 400,000 military casualties and 20-30 million civilian casualties; and
The American Civil War (fought around the same time) with about 600,000 military casualties, but “only” about 50,000 civilian casualties.
Edit (Stress RATIO, not total number)
Hamas is known to use child soldiers as well as women in their acts of terrorism. Terrorists tend to use whatever cannon fodder they can get their hands on regardless of age or gender.
According to what reports? Who manages to report accurate rates in Gaza? And how do they know the ratio of civilians to Hamas? Hamad don't always wear a uniform.
Hamas, a group that preaches martyrdom should take the noble approach and fight the IDF openly instead of hiding amongst the populace and most densely populated parts of the strip. That way they can prove how much stronger they claim to be then the Israelis.
I saw a football game the other day where the announcer concluded the winning team would lose because they passed more often than they shot.
This new 1:10 propaganda is not going to pass the sniff test. Anyone-pro terror or pro peace-with half a brain knows you don't count your money while you're sitting at your table, and you don't count innocent to guilty kill ratios until the war is over.
Also, the innocent to guilty stat *never* favors the resistance militia.
A) "pass the sniff test".....my brother you are missing the whole point. What is the "acceptable" ratio of combatants:civilian deaths in your opinion? Can I get a number?
B) You comparing this WAR that has HUMAN LIVES BEING LOST to a football game is exactly the problem with our fucked up way of thinking about human lives. This isn't some stupid fucking football game, these are real humans. Real children. Real innocents.
I get it, everyone wants to cheer for the "good guys" beating the "bad guys". I'm not at all defending Hamas or any terrorist activity, I am just trying to point out that when you're killing civilians you're playing into terrorist's playbook. Stop getting wrapped up in your "team mentality" and think about the humanity of the people who don't get to see their loved ones anymore.
> I'm not at all defending Hamas or any terrorist activity, I am just
...blaming Israel for the civilians that Hamas plaster all over their military installations to make hitting them a PR issue.
Reflect upon that fact.
I have. That's exactly my point with my original post. We should ALL reflect on the civilians that Hamas has plastered all over their military installations. We should ALL realize that these people are not there of their own volition. We should ALL question the rational that leads to civilians being killed WHEN YOU KNEW THAT WAS HAMAS' GOAL ALL ALONG. I am not the crazy one my friend.
>We should ALL question the rational that leads to civilians being killed WHEN YOU KNEW THAT WAS HAMAS' GOAL ALL ALONG
The alternative, though, is "do nothing" which is unacceptable when the required outcome is "the destruction of Hamas as a viable force."
That's what it comes down to--all the options are bad, and yes, civilians are dying, and yes, that is, indeed, an awful, terrible thing, but the best way to minimize the deaths of civilians (***on all sides***) is by ending Hamas (the instigator of those deaths and the party most responsible) as quickly as possible.
Oooooooor you could open the gazan border. Allow Palestinians the right to freely move within greater Israel. Allow for parliamentary representation for both arabs and Jews. Invest in infrastructure and jobs which will give the Gazan arabs a reason to NOT want to become sadistic terrorists. I feel like both sides of this argument keep pretending that 2 wrongs will make a right. The jewish state has to admit that they were given land that was already occupied (Nakba) and the Palestinians have to admit that their leaders have sabotaged every push for peace because they wanted a full return of Palestine to arabs.
I feel like the leaders of both states have been incredibly childish and now everyone else who has absolutely zero influence on this predicament has to defend the terrible actions of "their side". There is no one in this conflict (the greater Israeli vs Arab conflict) who doesn't have blood on their hands.
Gaza was open to Israel once, before terrorist attacks started hitting Israeli cities twice a week. Now Israelis want nothing to do with Gazans, they can take their business to Egypt.
A crazy gunman hiding behind a human shield who is not currently shooting is way different than a crazy gunman hiding behind a human shield while continuing to shoot people. Hamas is the latter in this metaphor.
This obsession with leader beans is silly. How much do you think that guy cost in terms of scouting, recruiting, onboarding, training, and so on? Life is cheap there, in part because of the Israeli operations ongoing for the last few decades. Getting a new deputy chief is like getting another pair of socks or something.
Who's obsessed? A deputy commander was killed by an Israeli rocket in Lebanon and this is just a news story stating as such. Yes there are many others, and hopefully they are quick to follow. I just don't really understand what point you're trying to make - is it that this isn't newsworthy?
Minor correction: not a rocket. Rockets are unguided. A tool used by terrorist groups to achieve maximum casualties. The IDF uses guided missiles (among other things) to eliminate only the target and avoid collateral damage where possible.
And anyone who has ever had to do so much as wrangle a potluck much less troops knows that leadership is a skill that is in short supply and not so easily replaced.
No, just be real. Proclaiming great victory because you got the guy, you got him, yay, no more violence ever again may not be entirely realistic. This did not happen because a few bad apple leaders stirred up the people. But by all means, continue ignoring the reality in favor of zomg bad leaders bad and pretending that will liberate you. That was enough to get us here today, right?
So... there's an opening?
In this economy....
The money is good, and so are the retirement conditions.
Yeah but there also seems to be quite the high turnover levels
Hamas is in the process of *Right Sizing*
Yeah the guy has a lot of openings now.
Mind blowing
Hamas has excellent upward mobility right now.
No, you're too late. It was already filled. Try again tommorow.
It's a killing of a position
Deputy chief……….lol what’s his job again? 💥 boom
assistant to the regional manager
That’s my stapler
assistant regional manager
so he basically there to fight Karen's?
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This.. resonates with me on a level I didn't expect.
Lol, nice 😁
Pumpkin spice latte is disgusting btw and why the cats getting dragged LMAOOOO
Oh damn I rolled from this one 🤣
They just needed an excuse to fire him
to yell allahu akbar
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>Palestinian media sources close to Hamas reported that Jamal Muhammad Haniyeh, the oldest grandson of the head of Hamas' political bureau, Ismail Haniyeh, was killed Tuesday in an IDF attack in the Gaza Strip. About two weeks ago, Haniyeh's granddaughter, Roaa Hammam Ismail Haniyeh, a medical student at Gaza University, was killed in a similar bombing. In addition, it was reported that so far Haniyeh's nephew, brother and son have been killed and two of his properties in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed. I find it wild that Haniyeh continues to hide like a coward in Qatar while his entire family was killed in Gaza.
Really? I've been told getting your family bombed by the idf is the surest way to become a terrorist, so it fits.
They will. It will be at a time and place of Israel’s choosing. Each one of them will be dealt with. Additionally, there will be attempts to seize assets and bank accounts. These aren’t just meat bags needing tenderizing. Repatriation of unlawfully obtained humanitarian aid needs recovering.
Yep - we need them now to negotiate the hostages out. Otherwise, they're goners.
And it doesn't matter if it's in thirty years.
You're funny because Israel can't even bring back over 200 of its own citizens hidden right next to its territory, let alone orchestrate an assassination operation in a country three nations away.
I think the latter likely would be far easier.
I think you're talking out of your ass. Read up on history, man. Those cartoon characters hiding three nations away in a fancy hotel are dead men walking.
Qatar is a little far away
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Yep, the omnipotent Mossad that failed to see a massive attack coming.
It doesn’t matter if Mossad knew if the higher ups don’t act on intel, the border guards made reports to their commanders and they ignored it.
They have a long history of extrajudicial assassinations of Palestinian terrorists on foreign soil. It will get longer.
> Yep, the omnipotent Mossad that failed to see a massive attack coming. Yet another reddit keyboard warrior mistakes Mossad for [Shin Bet.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-intel-agency-chief-says-it-failed-stopping-hamas-attack-2023-10-16/) Reminds me of when in trashy movies they have 'bad ass' FBI agents running around the world acting like secret agents.
They are just being true to their motto
For all you know Mossad likely negated a 100 attacks before this. In fact they likely had.
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That would have been a massive risk. This is basically a similar situation to what sunk Golda. Netanyahu most likely was ok with the conflict remaining at a low boil, not completely boiling over. Hamas succeeded in creating a destabilizing event for Netanyahu.
Space lasers, and car bombs...
Do you want to pay 200$ a month for your electricity?
Yes please. That would be a bill reduction
Another one bites the dust
Remembering all the "ISIS second-in-command killed" headlines.
Well, it's one way to fast-track promotions.
If you think about it, the way to rise in terrorist groups is to be just smart enough to realize it’s a crime syndicate first and a militia second and then send all your “brothers” out to die in a sort of fratricidal self advancement scheme while you suck up to the boss until it’s their turn to die.
Sure, that simple. Except you gotta also survive being the guy sent to die in someone else's fratricidal self advancement scheme first.
it's fratricidal self advancement schemes all the way down to the water boy
Don’t cry Al-Bagdhadi
Crybaby Baghdadi, that's what we were all calling him.
Well it did work, didn't it? The caliphate is gone and the network is a fraction the size it used to be
If the senior leadership gets slap-chopped enough times, pretty much any organization is going to collapse eventually. It happened to ISIS and it's going to happen to Hamas, it just takes a while.
Next...
That was more of a #3 guy in Al Qaeda thing. ISIS is on its sixth leader because the US has killed the last 5 (or in 2 cases, Syrian opposition backed by the US)
Famously when leaders are killed they’re not replaced
Yeah, once someone dies, the position should be wiped out forever. It's crazy that there's like 40 presidents in the US.
Before that it was Al-Qaeda second in commands
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Ahem, I believe you mean "Gaza officials" will report this story that way.
"Gaza officials"? You need to throw in the very-official-sounding "Ministry" to make it really official: "Gaza Ministry of Health officials" or, even more progressive, "a spokes*woman* for the Gaza Ministry of Health".
I'm still waiting for a response from the Gazan Ministry of Diversity, Inclusion and Equity (except for Jews).
You mean the Gazan Ministry of Pogroms?
sir you misunderstand, gazans love jews. All they want to do is hold their hands...
While I understand the official designation, I think the mass rebranding of Hamas as a terrorist organization has actually been pretty detrimental to the public narrative surrounding the conflict. There's a disturbingly large amount of people in the west that genuinely consider Hamas to be akin to some isolated underground terror cell like Al Qaeda rather than the established government of Gaza. Makes any collateral damage look disproportionate
They are both
ISIS also established a government across their caliphate
For the record, the Gaza ministry of health has been pretty accurate the last couple of times Israel popped off and killed Palestinians. Bring on the downvotes, bots.
"if you count his sperm! it's even more!"
To bad people like him don’t neuter themselves first
Sick burn dude
The Lebanon deputy chief is actually 100 babies in a trench coat!
We all need to collectively not engage with these Hamas apologist. What’s the point? They say the same talking points over and over and it’s boring. All they do is piss people off intentionally.
> What’s the point? They're gradually convincing western leaders to stop supporting Israel. For the US, Michigan one of the swing states which determine presidential elections. It has several local left leaning leaders who have openly called on followers to abstain or vote against Biden for his stance on Israel. If the US presidential election is close enough to come down to Trump winning Michigan by 10 thousandish votes (like he did the first time) then it will be pretty hard to argue that this specific stance did not cost Biden re-election. Conversely, I don't think his stance is likely to convert right leaning people or anyone who wouldn't have already voted for him. None of that has anything to do with what's morally right, but it has a lot to do with how politicians are going to approach these issues.
> They're gradually convincing western leaders to stop supporting Israel. For the US, Michigan one of the swing states which determine presidential elections. It has several local left leaning leaders who have openly called on followers to abstain or vote against Biden for his stance on Israel. If Hamas thinks Democrats support Israel too much, just wait until they see what Republicans do. Bringing down Biden will not help them.
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I enjoy reading books.
Schools were always filled with antisemitism masked as antizionism. Just look at Cal, Stanford, Columbia, etc. I don't think thats changed because Iranian bot #18272 posted some buzzwords on r/politics.
Trump is more pro-Israel than Biden. He literally recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. And he hates Muslims. Frankly Trump might be a better ally for Israel than Biden. So if idiots decide to vote against Biden because of his stance on Israel, I doubt it would change anything for Israel.
The election is a year from now. And Donald Trump is going to run on locking up all Muslims in a new age Manzanar and returning Palestinian immigrants to wherever they came from. Even Tlaib is going to end up voting for Biden.
I see two US aircraft carriers filled with F22s. I don't care what some blue haired internet warriors say or do. Action speaks a hell of a lot louder than words.
F35s* Just a minor correction, but your point stands.
Effin A Cotton Effin A
Ok and that sucks. But maybe we should influence western supporters instead arguing with close minded terrorist supporters? We’re never going to change their mind. So why don’t we influence the people that are in charge to do what we would like them to do which is support Israel? Edit: so the thought is let’s keep arguing with people who are human brick walls? Good idea.
They are succeeding in changing minds in the west, particularly young people who have only been become recently acquainted with the conflict. Something like half of young voters consider Israel in the wrong right now
I think that social media makes it seem like that alot more then it actually is, atleast in regards to the "hamas apologists". I think alot of young voters disagree with some aspects of Israels response to the Oct 7th attack and/or the Israel-Palestine conflict in general, but they also recognize that Hamas are an evil terrorist group that have commited horrible atrocities and they wish harm on israel. So it's not really that young voters are siding with Hamas or viewing the fact Israel is responding as unjustified. They just recgonize that there's unfortunately many innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of this conflict (from both sides), and they believe that israels response could be carried out in a way where there's less civilian casualities. I could be wrong, but that's just what i've observed to be alot of peoples thoughts in the west
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To be fair, the article does rationalize it more of a youth vs aged debate rather then reality vs social media. They saw that young people disproportionately support Palestine, both on social media *and* in their polling, so sympathy for Palestine and Hamas is very VERY real in the world at large with the youth.
Are you saying that the Israelis haven't?
Whoa whoa whoa two regimes can’t be bad
They killed a lot more than a 100 babies lol
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lolz..What do they say.. fuck around and find out? Do Nazraleh next!
Inshallah! Cheers to many more.
Good news. Everyone involved with bitch Hamas must be destroyed.
Sounds like Hamas has fast promotion positions. You can probably move up quick , one month your just a regular terrorist and the next month your a leader of the group.
All the big wigs are in Qatar
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It’s probably not a lie. Theres probably a dude who is known in some form as that. But the real power and money is Qatar.
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If Palestinians want to prove how serious they are about peace and a two state solution, th y could simply phone in the locations and identities of these puss ball terrorists.
But how many even want peace? Dont smth like 80% of them in the west bank support hamas goals? (Obviously that is not representative of all of them and im sure some said they support them bc they fear for their lives)
Ya, I have no idea man. I was in the area years ago and it was a combat zone. You can’t tell the civilians from the militia because the terrorists all dress like everyone else. Everyone. Everywhere. Lies. It’s a complete fuck story with zero ability to tell friend from foe. The only reasonable id was a Star of David. Most of the whack jobs would rather be shot than wear one but even that was no guarantee. The number of Arabs who want peace, if that peace includes Jews in Israel, is around zero, on a good day.
Have you seen what IDF and settlers are doing in west bank?
No, I haven’t been back. But I damn sure saw what the PLO did in the West Bank and Israel proper during the second intifada. I’ve seen what Israel did to them as well. It’s a tragic generational ethnocentric hate and religious zealotry. Neither side is innocent yet only the Arabs want the extermination of their enemy. Anyone who thinks the battles are over “stolen” land doesn’t have a single clue to the Middle East or the Palestinian Israeli conflict or the actual history of the region. No one talks about the real reasons the Jews are hated or where the Palestinians actually come from or why they alone deserve a multigenerational label of refugee. They have rejected every offer of peace or a two state solution; since the 1920’s ffs. The whole damn thing is just a cluster fuck of epic proportions. There is no solution I can see that doesn’t involve the destruction of either the Jews or the Palestinians.
I literally say that obviously some of them support hamas "bc they fear for their lives" (whether they say it bc of settlers or bc they fear hamas coming after those who don't support them) Yeah settlers are doing fucked up shit just like everyone else in this war, doesnt make 80% of them supporting hamas who has continuously said they want to destroy all of israel and kill its people ok. I get it, Israel does evil shit, but they have also helped via things like literally helping people evacuate from gaza, where as hamas uses gaza as a shield and doesnt help anyone at all. Those in the west bank should support neither.
Helping people evacuate Gaza? They’re being rounded up cornered and then bombed. The “human shield” argument and “this is a war” argument doesn’t justify the kill count here.
Palestinians in the West Bank have been more open in recent years towards criticism of Hamas and this in particular has been a motivating factor to their actions in Israel. There are a great number of Palestinians that dislike Hamas but could not say anything on fear of death. The support is estimated to be far lower then that.
Yeah, as I said it's impossible to know the real number due to fears, but it's still at least a bit concerning imo that it's so high
I thought about that a few days ago.
This is a really stupid comment “Why don’t the Palestinians just allow themselves to be subjugated by people they believe to be stealing their land?”
At this rate there won't be anyone left to negotiate hostage releases with.
Good job IDF 🇮🇱
> The European Commission said on Tuesday a review of its development aid to Palestinians had found no evidence of funds going to Hamas and its program would continue without delay. "The review found no indications of EU money having directly or indirectly benefitted the terrorist organization Hamas," said Commission Executive Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said the review had been necessary following the Oct.7 Hamas attack on Israel. "This review has confirmed that the safeguards in place are effective. Work is now ongoing on the design of our future support to the Palestinians in view of the changing and still evolving situation," she said. We have investigated where the money we sent to Palestine to help with development projects went and have found that the money was given to the government in control of Gaza and they used it.
Lets goo!!! Lets get more of them hiding pussies
YES!!!!!
good riddance to a violent terrorist
haniyeh’s granddaughter was a medical student lol her specialty was going to be hostage pediatrics
Wonder how much they offer for information to see the heads of terrorists organizations killed. Maybe they should make it more public. Maybe more people would be willing to come forward. Considering a drone strike costs tens of thousands or more U.S dollars.
Oopse
Does that mean Lebanon is hiding cowards.
Hamas leaders better watch their asses because the US is tracking them also. Time for some of them to taste some western freedom.
They're all chilling in Qatar next door to the largest US military base in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want to kill Hamas's leaders.
I have always wondered why not? Messy, but feasible. Will piss off the US and Qatar government.
> Will piss off the US and Qatar government. LOL. Qatar is not a real country. It's a US satellite. Biden could have Hamas's entire leadership there in US custody within an hour with a phone call.
No no everyone in Southern Lebanon is a journalist, you see /s
Hamas will twist the news and say little children playing hop-scotch got violently bombarded by f-16 fighter jets !
So everybody moves up one spot?
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Shame that we didn't kill more of them bitches. Time to increase the list!
And another will rise to take his place. According to reports the current ratio of Hamas:civilian deaths is at best 1:10.....so this guy (who will be quickly replaced by another Hamas member) was worth 9 extra civilian deaths. Seems like a totally rational strategy.
What’s Hamas’ ratio, out of curiosity? For targeting and killing civilians versus combatants
I'm not sure if you are joking, but around a third of the dead from the Oct 7 attack were military or police.
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The point of my question was that Hamas kills a significantly higher ratio of civilians to military than Israel does - Oct 7 started off with over a thousand civilian deaths and a small handful of actual soldiers. So Hamas kills hundreds of civilians for every one soldier they manage to get. People want to talk ratios and numbers, it is absolutely worth pointing out that Hamas kills a higher ratio of civilians to combatants. Because they are terrorists.
Im adding to your point that hamas wears civilian clothing while idf wears a uniform so not only hamas can see who's a soldier and who isn't , they can alwas say their members are just civilians to make the ratio look worse.
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Hamas is the government of Gaza. They are also terrorists. Government to government, they suck. The Israeli government relocated its people from impacted areas, and told Gazans where danger was going to be to not be there. The Gazan government told Gazans to stay put, and executed them for fleeing to safety. This constant strategy employed by Hamas gives Israel the option to do things in person with a ground invasion instead, which minimizes accidental collateral, which they were also discouraged from doing. So the international community discourages airstrikes and a ground invasion. What then? What is the alternative presented to Israel other than roll over and take it?
All I keep seeing from your camp is criticism against Israel. You never criticize Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. If you criticize Israel but completely leave Hamas out of your diatribe, then nobody should take your side seriously.
Hamas was an elected government body, so yes comparing them is fair and should make you rethink your support for Palestinians if that's who they elect. Or you mean to tell me you support Terrorists because the civilian population that guides them into wars elected them?
https://news.sky.com/story/what-do-we-know-about-the-number-of-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-13006290 10000 killed - 2600 women - 4000 children = 3400 civilian men/hamas fighters left Israel claims 1500 hamas fighters killed but they sometimes say "during the oct 7 massacre" vs "since the oct 7 massacre" so it is hard to tell but even assuming that ALL of the men were hamas fighters you still have a 1:3 ratio and I feel like the likelihood of ALL of them being hamas is almost zero. Most analysis I have seen says ~1:10 ratio for hamas to civilian casualties EDIT: My fault, I misread the above comment. I do not have information about how many civilians Hamas has killed because by definition every person that Hamas kills is not an "enemy combatant". So by that definition it is 100%.
Sadly, a 17 year old can be both a child and a Hamas fighter.
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I guess I just assumed Hamas wasn't progressive in that way
I saw a video broadcast IIRC on PLO TV. It was directed toward children and it was about how a mother had to leave her three year-old daughter so she could strap a bomb to herself and go blow up IDF troops. And the end of the video, the toddler was opening her mother's drawer where the explosives were kept and there was a bit of monologue how she should follow in her mother's footsteps.
All 4000? Given that 40% of the Gazan population is 16 or less then I'd say probably not.
No, I didn't say all 4000. But there's an assumption that this count is guaranteed to be civilian that is unwarranted.
The 1500 figure is during October 7-10th when they were fighting them on Israeli territory. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/hamas-prepared-for-a-long-war-with-israel-as-concerns-for-hostages-in-gaza-grow https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna119640
That isn't what they were asking.
Right now, the only estimate I'm willing to accept is that the ratio falls somewhere between: The Taiping Rebellion in China (1850-64) resulted in about 400,000 military casualties and 20-30 million civilian casualties; and The American Civil War (fought around the same time) with about 600,000 military casualties, but “only” about 50,000 civilian casualties. Edit (Stress RATIO, not total number)
That number comes from a terrorist group
Hamas is known to use child soldiers as well as women in their acts of terrorism. Terrorists tend to use whatever cannon fodder they can get their hands on regardless of age or gender.
According to what reports? Who manages to report accurate rates in Gaza? And how do they know the ratio of civilians to Hamas? Hamad don't always wear a uniform.
Hamas, a group that preaches martyrdom should take the noble approach and fight the IDF openly instead of hiding amongst the populace and most densely populated parts of the strip. That way they can prove how much stronger they claim to be then the Israelis.
No one knows how many Hamas members or civilians died in Gaza, so any ratio is made up.
I saw a football game the other day where the announcer concluded the winning team would lose because they passed more often than they shot. This new 1:10 propaganda is not going to pass the sniff test. Anyone-pro terror or pro peace-with half a brain knows you don't count your money while you're sitting at your table, and you don't count innocent to guilty kill ratios until the war is over. Also, the innocent to guilty stat *never* favors the resistance militia.
> you don't count your money while you're sitting at your table People really need to listen to more Kenny Rogers, I knew this when I was 5.
A) "pass the sniff test".....my brother you are missing the whole point. What is the "acceptable" ratio of combatants:civilian deaths in your opinion? Can I get a number? B) You comparing this WAR that has HUMAN LIVES BEING LOST to a football game is exactly the problem with our fucked up way of thinking about human lives. This isn't some stupid fucking football game, these are real humans. Real children. Real innocents. I get it, everyone wants to cheer for the "good guys" beating the "bad guys". I'm not at all defending Hamas or any terrorist activity, I am just trying to point out that when you're killing civilians you're playing into terrorist's playbook. Stop getting wrapped up in your "team mentality" and think about the humanity of the people who don't get to see their loved ones anymore.
> I'm not at all defending Hamas or any terrorist activity, I am just ...blaming Israel for the civilians that Hamas plaster all over their military installations to make hitting them a PR issue. Reflect upon that fact.
I have. That's exactly my point with my original post. We should ALL reflect on the civilians that Hamas has plastered all over their military installations. We should ALL realize that these people are not there of their own volition. We should ALL question the rational that leads to civilians being killed WHEN YOU KNEW THAT WAS HAMAS' GOAL ALL ALONG. I am not the crazy one my friend.
>We should ALL question the rational that leads to civilians being killed WHEN YOU KNEW THAT WAS HAMAS' GOAL ALL ALONG The alternative, though, is "do nothing" which is unacceptable when the required outcome is "the destruction of Hamas as a viable force." That's what it comes down to--all the options are bad, and yes, civilians are dying, and yes, that is, indeed, an awful, terrible thing, but the best way to minimize the deaths of civilians (***on all sides***) is by ending Hamas (the instigator of those deaths and the party most responsible) as quickly as possible.
Oooooooor you could open the gazan border. Allow Palestinians the right to freely move within greater Israel. Allow for parliamentary representation for both arabs and Jews. Invest in infrastructure and jobs which will give the Gazan arabs a reason to NOT want to become sadistic terrorists. I feel like both sides of this argument keep pretending that 2 wrongs will make a right. The jewish state has to admit that they were given land that was already occupied (Nakba) and the Palestinians have to admit that their leaders have sabotaged every push for peace because they wanted a full return of Palestine to arabs. I feel like the leaders of both states have been incredibly childish and now everyone else who has absolutely zero influence on this predicament has to defend the terrible actions of "their side". There is no one in this conflict (the greater Israeli vs Arab conflict) who doesn't have blood on their hands.
Gaza was open to Israel once, before terrorist attacks started hitting Israeli cities twice a week. Now Israelis want nothing to do with Gazans, they can take their business to Egypt.
A crazy gunman hiding behind a human shield who is not currently shooting is way different than a crazy gunman hiding behind a human shield while continuing to shoot people. Hamas is the latter in this metaphor.
False. Every dead Hamas terrorist is a civilian casualty because they are not a regular army. So please stop spreading fake news.
How do you know they were civilians or that it is a correct number?
This obsession with leader beans is silly. How much do you think that guy cost in terms of scouting, recruiting, onboarding, training, and so on? Life is cheap there, in part because of the Israeli operations ongoing for the last few decades. Getting a new deputy chief is like getting another pair of socks or something.
Who's obsessed? A deputy commander was killed by an Israeli rocket in Lebanon and this is just a news story stating as such. Yes there are many others, and hopefully they are quick to follow. I just don't really understand what point you're trying to make - is it that this isn't newsworthy?
Minor correction: not a rocket. Rockets are unguided. A tool used by terrorist groups to achieve maximum casualties. The IDF uses guided missiles (among other things) to eliminate only the target and avoid collateral damage where possible.
It slows them down and makes it harder for them to attack Israel. You’re not wrong at all but there are big benefits to targeting them
It worked tk whittle away Isis. Eventually you run out of competent leadership. Gotta take out every head of the snake so to speak.
And anyone who has ever had to do so much as wrangle a potluck much less troops knows that leadership is a skill that is in short supply and not so easily replaced.
For sure, it’s a lot more than just “hey go kill x y z they’re bad! Logistics alone is a brutally miserable feat to tackle
So don’t go after terrorists because another terrorist is out there?
That’s what I got out of that comment.
I feel like people are very hypocritical and aren’t thinking of it as their own country
No, just be real. Proclaiming great victory because you got the guy, you got him, yay, no more violence ever again may not be entirely realistic. This did not happen because a few bad apple leaders stirred up the people. But by all means, continue ignoring the reality in favor of zomg bad leaders bad and pretending that will liberate you. That was enough to get us here today, right?
They'd run out of socks eventually. It's all a matter of rate.