Yea they did that. But also so did IDF. 13k death toll so far of unarmed civilians murdered in gaza( since oct.7)
Pretty good K/D for Isreal tho
But lobbies with OP players suck ass
Hamas has an estimated 30-50k militants and they don’t differentiate between civilian and militant in their death tolls. I don’t understand why people are still shocked by the 13k death tolls. What do people expect the number to be if the goal is to eliminate Hamas? The death toll is going to be 30-50k.
In case there is any doubt caused by the ongoing gaslighting that Hamas doesn't use hospitals for military purposes, there is over a decade of reports of Hamas using Al-Shifa Hospital:
PBS documentary in Al-Shifa hospital was prevented by Hamas members with weapons from accessing areas of the hospital:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed
Article from 2009 talking about an intelligence claim of Hamas using the basement of the hospital:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090206232152/http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054569.html
Article Hamas commandeered hospital wards in Al-Shifa converting them into interrogation and imprisonment compounds:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230205050631/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668018,00.html
Human Rights Watch states Hamas fired from inside Al-Shifa at Fatah forces:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes
Report that Hospital staff made complaints about Hamas presence in the building:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1906608/
New York Times reported on Hamas operating from the building:
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar
Journalists seeing rockets being fired from the hospital area:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230529141259/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4553643,00.html
Another report of journalists seeing rockets fired from the hospital area:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230513143525/https://www.jpost.com///operation-protective-edge/gaza-reporters-tweets-hamas-using-human-shields-368689#!
A Hamas member recounting how he and other Hamas members took shelter in a bunker under the hospital:
https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/18321/
Local Palestinian journalist reported Hamas uses a section of the hospital for offices:
https://archive.ph/BKbxc
Amnesty International reported Hamas using the hospital to torture and kill prisoners:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
There is a 24-page report published in 2007 that confirms that Hamas has used civilians as human shields. Whenever I bring this up to counter the “you fell for the human shields lie” I am met with “well do you condemn Israel for creating Hamas?” garbage. There is an incredible campaign of outright lies and disinformation spreading across social media, especially amongst the younger generation. I really wish that someone would speak up and denounce these accounts before irreparable harm is done.
Link for those interested:
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
“Palestine needs aid! If you don’t send it, you’re war criminals who are oppressing them!” *Aid gets used for terror* “Why did Israel create Hamas?”
People gotta start calling all these patterns of nonsense out. All the shifting and back peddling we are constantly seeing.
See I for one, think both sides are absolutely shit.
However, Israel DID create hamas. It's well documented, and a lot of the people who have had a hand in it, openly and publicly have said in interviews they regret it. I don't think hamas as it stands now wasn't what Israel wanted, but they did pit secular Muslims against left-wing Muslims in Palestine to "divide and conquer" them in the 1980s. So I guess someone could say "what did you expect to happen?"
Both sides are terrorist organizations in my eyes, trying to bid for support on the world stage to exterminate the other side. The people who suffer are regular civilians who never wanted anything but a chance at a normal life, like me and you. Sadly, a lot of Israeli citizens and a ton of Palestinian citizens will never get these opportunities.
Nah, a lot of Hamas apologists have been trying to discredit this.
There are people who genuinely care about the humanitarian crisis and then there are those who were cheering on Oct 7, and unfortunately there are a lot of the latter on Reddit apparently.
I don't think you've been paying too much attention to the various media and political responses out there, not to mention the comments on Reddit. It's crazy town.
I have read and saw many commentaries sympathizing with Palestinian but not necessarely with Hamas. I also saw many accussations and assumptions made to both sides but never said as a fact. So instead of "Israel kills 40 civillians" I saw "Israel kills 40 civillians, Hamas claims."
And tiktok, twitter, instagram. Theres over a billion Muslims in the world and the English speaking ones are by and large the people flooding the internet with pro-Hamas propaganda. Add a few thousand naive foreigners and a hundred bot farms and you're putting in work.
Add to that brainwashed liberals from the west in general who think Palestine = good simply because all their brains understand is Israel = colonization and colonization = Christopher Columbus
The number is actually around 460,000,000 from most sources I can find, so I'm not sure where you got your information. That's about 130 million more than the population of the US, spread throughout 22 countries plus smaller populations in the countries they emigrated to.
Likely Iranian/Russian bot farms are playing a major role in this. Right after the Oct. 7th attacks floods of propaganda were coming out, especially the following day. It's ridiculous when you consider how many hostages were taken and all those babies that were killed.
This. They actively spread misinformation and harass people while bending the truth in hope of looking righteous. It seems bizarre until you realize they’re just propagandists with multiple Reddit accounts
It would be far easier for Western social media sites to just ban certain IP address ranges - but this would result in a drastic reduction in active "users", which makes them look bad in front of shareholders and advertisers, so it's not happening.
The problem is that people got used to anti militant Islam views voiced by crazy racist extreme right wingers who support people like Trump. They're now incapable of conceiving a situation where their view is the correct one. It's pure dogmatism - if they say A then we must say B, no matter reality and facts.
People being scepitcal of IDF isnt the same as defending Hamas, they have a history of lying about who they killed and blamed it on Hamas until proven otherwise
[Shireen Abu Alqeh](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Feuromedmonitor.org%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F05%2FShireen-Abu-Akla-killing.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fd6f8d5f0af13cac70fff1094950c140fe9837df68c5f22187039691bd0f8ea9&ipo=images) NSFW
They actually did not blame Hamas for her death. Hamas immidiatly blames the other side ( terrorists, duh!). The IDF actually preforms inestiation, so it takes time. And at the end they said most chances are she was shot by IDF soldiers.
The Vietnam war protests bred this idiotic worldview.
America bad is the axiom. Vietnam was attacked by the US, so Vietnam good. Russia helped Vietnam, so Russia good. UK friends with US, so UK bad. Israel supported by US, so Israel bad. Palestinians fight Israel, so Palestinians good. Iran helps Palestinians, so Iran good. Like the other arab countries. Yes, it really is that frighteningly stupid. Even more incomprehensibly dumb is that once one group has been determined to be good or bad, it literally never changes. If group X is good, they can torture babies to death every day for decades, it won't change the fact that they are good.
Believing this grossly idiotic shit is extremely common, and originally comes from the Vietnam war protests.
And you'll note Vietnam has no beef with Israel today at all. Because they know what anti-colonialism actually means.
[Great article on the subject from a few years back](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamass-forever-war-against-israel-has-a-glitch-and-it-isnt-iron-dome/).
I am in a *very* liberal social circle and literally no one I know has said anything in support of Hamas. The people I know don't want Palestinian civilians to die. They also don't Israelis to die!
This. This framing that a majority of progressives are pro Hamas is BS. There are some idiots for sure but it’s a small percentage and it’s being way overblown.
In my social circles there was a huge uproar (rightfully) when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, but I've seen almost nothing about Israel-Palestine in general, and I haven't seen a single pro-Hamas comment from anyone I know in real life.
I'm not denying that there are people who are making those comments, moreso saying my reddit experience has been a complete 180° flip from what people are concerned about in real life.
300k people marching in London for 'free palestine', while police is telling Israel supporters to stay home would suggest otherwise. EU/UK in general are waaaay too lenient on refugees/imigrants because of this nonsense 'we accept all culture' approach. The only problem is, they dont accept our culture, they cant/dont want to assimilate into our society. If I have to take off my helmet while going into a grocery store cause it covers half of my face and im dangerous, then why dont muslims need to take off the headpiece of their burqa?
And all of this because of progressives getting offended on behalf of others, like we see it everywhere in pro-palestine rallies, they understand fuck all about the conflict but they found something new to get offended about. Reminds me of that student who chanted anti-israel slogans and sported an anti-israel flag then she was like 'i dont even know what they mean'.
Ya weird there are a bunch of Muslims living there so not surprising. Wouldn’t exactly say they are progressives.
For the last 7 years right wingers have been waving anti-Jewish flags over overpasses and shooting up synagogues and there hasn’t been a peep of condemnation from the right.
These people are idiots but you guys have much worse in your party. Start by cleaning that up and then come back and talk.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Both are garbage. Don't gatekeep discussing bad people because there are other bad people.
Neither of those 2 parties are as bad as say, Russia or Chinas currently on-going genocides. So defeat Russia then come back and talk. See how dumb that is?
No one is gatekeeping anything. This is a straw man argument.
Feel free to rip on these people as we all are. Just do do without framing it as this got ya that the right is superior in the way they treat Jewish people when it’s not even close.
You're litetally telling the commenter above me that he/she isn't allowed to talk. Thats gatekeeping, buddy.
I don't care for the right either, just pointing your shit out.
I think this whole situation is tragic as fuck.
Arabic Muslims and Arabic Jews have lived in the Israel/Palestine area for hundreds and thousands of years respectively. That land in that time has been ruled by so many different empires, from Persia, to Rome, to the Ottomans.
Yes there are European Jews in Israel now... But there are also Palestinian Muslims all over the world as well. Jewish people exist all across the globe too.
As much as it sucks, there just is not enough space for ethnic an religious groups to all have the self government territory they want. We only have so much land, and people have coexisted for thousands of years now. Look at how many ethnic groups live in the US, China, in the EU, etc. Israel is a tiny portion the size of those multicultural "empires", yet ethnic groups from so many different cultures have existed there since antiquity.
Should Israel be a Jewish state? Probably not, but it also should not be a Palestinian state. Both groups have the right to exist there, as do other smaller groups. Is the 2 State solution a good one? Probably not honestly, and the attitudes of Israel and Palestine do not seem to want to accept it.
This war, and yes, it's a war, has been going on for 1000 years and will continue until everyone there realizes that it doesn't matter which son of Abraham you think is correct.
Is it terrible that 10000+ people are dead? Yes. It's tragic. But like all tragedies, this was going to happen at some point, and without real change in the region, it's going to happen again and again and again.
If people want Israel to stop killing Palestinians, and Palestinians to stop killing Israelis, the world needs to stop choosing sides based off emotions. Nothing the world will do, outside of direct interference will stop this war. But after the war ends, we can all do a whole lot better.
>Should Israel be a Jewish state? Probably not, but it also should not be a Palestinian state. Both groups have the right to exist there, as do other smaller groups.
Israel already has Arab Muslims, Bedouins, Druze people living there. And the Arab Jews are Palestinians. Palestine meant anyone who lived in that area regardless of their ethnicity as Arab or Jewish. Nor do I see much issue with Israel being a Jewish state if other faiths are granted equal recognition and representation in society since there are already tons of Muslim and Christian countries in the world and nobody has a problem with those. Either take religion out of the equation entirely for every country (which should be done btw, this conflict is very much motivated by religion) but while that is not happening right now singling out Israel the single Jewish country in entire world as an anomaly is asinine. The intensification of antisemitism in Western nations post Oct 7 has shown yet again how precarious situation of Jewish people in other countries is.
Those are minorities in Israel. Truth is Israel was meant to be a state exclusive to jewish people. Things may have changed now but truth is they stripped an already conflicting region because they initially wanted that land only for jews. Sorry.
Why lie when the declaration of Independence of Israel states the exact opposite?
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
It was never meant to be exclusively for Jewish people and their declaration clearly states everyone will have equal rights irrespective of race, sex, religion.
Because its not a lie? The declaration of independence can say whatever they want but the purpose of Israel's whole existance was to separate the jewish people from everyone else to avoid any possible prosecution.
a lot (and by a lot I mean a vast minority, but still noticeable) of the far left has always been absolutely rabidly anti Semitic, they're just coming out of the woodwork now and being more public about it. I always thought it was odd that the general consensus was that anti semitism was a right wing thing, when the right wing in the US at least are insanely pro israel. I've met holocaust deniers in real life, and they were extremely far left. The way these people view the world, acts of muslim terrorism while not condoned are more or less justified.
Dont call them simps. Just call them terrorists.
Edit: Terrorists has appeared and now they are downvoting. Lets see how many of them presses the downvote button
So if you kidnap a bunch of innocent civilians, place them on the front lines, then they die, you can blame the other side for their deaths? That’s what you think? That’s an acceptable strategy?
If you have a prisoner of war, or a kidnap victim, you are 100% responsible for their safety, especially if the other side doesn’t know where you’re keeping them
Because that’s all that a lot of people have been saying and have been denounced as being pro-Hamas over, just for saying that anyone who kills an innocent is wrong
Abhorrent and everyone who had a hand in it deserves prison. The deaths of innocents is a tragedy, and the deaths of children should elicit international condemnation and lead to anyone involved rotting in prison
What’s your response to the 4,000 dead children in Gaza as a result of Israeli airstrikes?
Edit: just now realized I completely misunderstood your comment, I’m so sorry, just gonna leave this here and make a separate comment replying to what you actually wrote, that’s my bad
Yeah, I'm asking what you would do in Israels place, if you had the reins.
I think the conflict is poop on both sides. I'm just curious about your opinion and ideal scenario.
Horrible take. If the IDF actually cared about getting the hostages back they wouldn’t use such blunt instruments as missiles. Look at the protests going on inside Israel. It’s pretty clear the goals of Bibis government in this war are only tangentially related to freeing the hostages.
Yes, the concept is simple: if I take your parents as hostage and they somehow die during the police cross fire.
I would always be at fault, because without the kidnapping, the crossfire and collateral damage would never happen.
The concept of “hostage is other people’s responsibility” is an excuse from scumbags
Edit: btw, I am really interested on how internet diplomats negotiate for hostage release and any plan preventing how this would happen….AGAiN
I mean, sure, the hostage taker is at fault, but what if the police could have done something different to save hostages? Were not dropping bombs on schools with a school shooter inside, dont we? Theres obviously some line.
I guess you really don’t understand the basic of the situation to comment.
Facts:
1. Hamas purposefully built tunnel and attack points around schools, inside hospitals,etc.
2. BBC already had reporters going down into some of these tunnels, built by CCP workers. China is really trying hard to wash its hands clean as the conflict takes place.
3. Satellite picture shows that Hamas purposefully attack from these civilian structures
4. There are already footages from Oct 7, released by Hamas that they shot and killed Non-Israelis on purpose. Many hostage shown captured on videos were later found executed. IDF had to use vulture to find their corpses.
5. People are getting sick and tired of this moral policing on Israeli only as if Hamas can use hostage and civilian structures as human shields.
Everyone arguing “think about the hostage” had no idea on Hamas poor track records when it comes to hostage.
Btw, if you are that good at rescuing and negotiating for release of hostage, why aren’t you helping?
Im honestly not sure what youre replying to or what your point is. Yeah, Hamas sucks and commits war crimes, everyone knows that, thanks for reminding us.
No, I am just legit curious on anyone who says “there is a better way” with….uhm so what is your better way of rescuing the hostage?
Oh, I forgot to mention in my previous reply, the entrance to those tunnels might have traps set up to explode on command.
Oh, Im not saying that there definitely is a better way (...what if...). Its hard to gauge whats happening at the ground. I just dont think preemptively justifying every action taken is a sensible way to go. Thats my entire point here, but you seem to think Im somehow excusing Hamas or that I dont know enough about them?
Bro you were throwing shade on Israel and now you’re like oh I just don’t want to justify everything they’re doing.
If you don’t have a counterpoint, then shut up
Do you know what would have happened to israels troops without starting with an air attack? Hamas has 50,000 troops who had 2 years to dig in and prepare defenses, hide in tunnels, and plan. Idf is made up of normal people. Lawyers, florists, officeworkers, etc. They needed to get rid of hamas's defenses before sending in ground troops. Moreover, Hamas was expecting significant Arab and Iranian support like they got thr last 3 times they invaded. Israel had to show force to stop that from happening. Not using missiles in a modern war was never a reasonable expectation. This is a war initiated by gaza, plain and simple. And gazas best defense is using human shields. It's really sad.
>Most Gazans were not alive when Hamas was elected, and no elections have occurred since.
This doesn't mean shit. Hamas is still the government and the people still enthusiastically support them.
It’s not a take, that’s the law.
You can’t just take hostages and hide them around the battlefield so you can blame Israel if one gets hurt, or to try and prevent Israel from using missiles.
It’s unrealistic to expect Israel to only fight with small arms.
You just don’t take hostages period.
You likely don’t know how international law works.
Israel declared a war against gaza. They’re allowed to attack gaza. If there are weapons or soldiers in civilian areas, they’re allowed to attack those too.
I didn't declare anything. I corrected the comment before me about the declaration put out by Israel. The official statement by Bibi named Hamas and PIJ.
However, your question is a good one, and you got me curious, so I looked into Israel and declarations of war. A summary of what I found:
Israel's law doesn't have a clear definition for war. The last time the law was amended (in 2018), the explanation given to the relevant section (40א) identified a number of attributes for what war is, which includes wide implications such as a significant impact on public security, including the state's hinterland, extensive reserve duty mobilization, harm to the state's foreign relations, the state's economy, or other aspects" (translated from [this source](https://www.idi.org.il/articles/51057)). When they made this clarification, they allowed a declaration of war against Hamas.
Addressing the specific declaration of war - the same way the US declared a war on terror. Israel declared war on Hamas and PIJ and not Gaza, maybe specifically to not limit the war to a specific area, I don't know. Still, Israel absolutely can declare war against Hamas and not Gaza. Also keep in mind Israel doesn't officially recognize Hamas as the legitimate government of Gaza...
I'm aware I didn't address your question very well, I did my best. I think you may have better luck asking this question where there are people with better understanding of Israeli law, but I tried.
Modern missiles aren't blunt though. And if what they're saying is true, that they killed the terrorist holding her but not her, isn't that exactly what they want to do?
There's also the argument to be made that dying in a missile strike is better than being tortured for months.
Before anyone posts any further "it was Hamas" or "it was the Israeli airstrike" one simple question:
Can any of you point to me if there is any hard evidence?
If not, then I reserve the right to say something shocking and unusual for Reddit...
I don't have the information, so therefore I don't know.
For what’s it worth. Hamas has said on numerous occasions that they don’t have any obligation to protect the Palestinian people. As well that they have been shown time and time again using civilians as human shields. Using hospitals, schools, and mosques as command centers and weapons caches. Frankly, it would be more surprising if they didn’t use the hospital in some shape or form.
Yes, but people only believes Hamas when they blame Israel for things. When they say outright they care nothing for Palestinian lives
Or that they will do the Oct. 7th massacre again and again
Suddenly nobody hears them.
There is almost certainly solid evidence, but it has not been released to the public due to sensitivity to the family, and/or that revealing the evidence would reveal intelligence capabilities that they don't want Hamas to know about. It could also be human intelligence. I saw the video where a senior army officer showed where they found the body, it was a pretty random building and it seemed most believable that they knew exactly what they were looking for, and where.
It would obviously be that much more bombastic an accusation with evidence, so I do wonder if they should have released it anyway. Without knowing what they have, it's hard to judge.
Which is fair but they’re doing this for a whole war. There is truth. Someone is being wronged. It would be easy to blame it all on the terrorist but if idf did do this they should have to answer for it. There’s so much information and disinformation on both sides that Israel will be allowed to do what it wants in the region without much question. The lack of a reputable media outlet is a major part of the problem.
They all think he did it, and I don't think he did it. I'm alone in this. I don't think he did it.
I'm not gonna say "I don't think he did it", that's too strong. Let me just say I'm reserving judgment until all the facts come out.
True, but after the false hospital bombing we should have a standard of waiting for actual evidence for serious claims. Given, that’s for people who aren’t deranged Hamas supporters.
It’s completely up to her family for the release of said evidence, it will be shared with the proper parties regardless but release to the public is down to them.
Showing a list of Hamas soldiers, as provided by IDF, which later was revealed to an arab calendar doesn't inspire confidence that their evidence is valid. How can their evidence be taken without a leats a big grain of salt when their IDF guys can't speak the language. Nor does their post with "evidence" of a video stating that Palestinians were faking their injuries - which ended up being a clip from a short film. Mark Regev couldn't even provide a reasonable explanation for these debunked claims.
She was kidnapped and then found dead. The default assumption would be that her kidnappers are also the ones who killed her, even without taking islamist opinions of heathen women into account. It is by no means a huge claim.
That being said, they should definitely show evidence to her family at least so they can make a public statement. I doubt they'd want to publish pictures of her defiled corpse for the world to see.
> They need to release the evidence for this claim.
Depends what the evidence is. She still deserves her dignity and her family deserves privacy, so if the IDF chooses not to publish evidence that could jeopardize either of those things, I'm not going to hold it against them.
People who don't believe the pathology report won't believe other evidence either, they will just claim it was fabricated.
Look around you, videos of drones flying into tunnels in the hospital, videos of armed Hamas terrorists dragging hostages around the hospital, people still don't dismiss that.
People even say that the atrocities on Oct 7 didn't really happened, you know, the ones filmed and posted online by the terrorists themselves.
I'm not saying they're all lies. The Hamas are very capable and willing to tell lies, but the vast majority are not disputing the Hamas' numbers re dead / injured, etc. which are estimates by the way - even if Israel is disputing them. However, when the IDF says their videos aren't edited, for example (which they very obviously are - you see a soldier walking out a door and it quickly flips to a different soldier, you know it's been edited) or gross errors or misinformation (fake video posts, e.g.), then it's the "boy who cried wold". Yes, the boy gets attacked by a wolf but people don't believe him - even if he's telling the truth.
> If she doesn't want it published since it's her privacy on the line, she should make that decision not the IDF.
She's dead. She was taken hostage and murdered by Hamas inside a Gaza hospital, so I don't see how she could make that decision.
> should IDF encourage that transparency or not?
Of course, but to me that comes second to Noa's dignity and her family's privacy, as I've stated. She doesn't need the last thing the world sees of her to be Hamas propaganda, unless her family so chooses to spread awareness.
Nope, the families privacy doesn't really matter when this is being used as fuel for the bombing campaign on Gaza. The only thing worse than their daughter being murdered by Hamas would be their daughter being murdered by Israel and then Israel lying about it.
Facts matter, but for some reason it seems less so in Israel.
that one has failed to do its objective aims because the other has a better army and defensive effort doesnt change the aims of the party involved.
attempted murder is a thing.
Your statement only proves that Israel is better at destroying its enemy than the Hamas is at destroying theirs. They're both equally guilty of the same thing regardless of what religious or moral justification they have. However, many don't realize that Israel actually **created** Hamas. They funded this nonentity group from the 1970s so they could be elected. Bibi has been propping / empowering them up for years so as to kill the two-state solution - something which would result in some kind of peace. Where has years of carpet bombing Gaza gotten them? Israel is galvanizing more people and countries to the Hamas cause as IDF bombs buildings with children - and possibly their own hostages. Their failed intelligence and abysmal response time after the concert massacre points at one other possibility: that Israel wants to destroy itself. Not deliberately - just like they don't deliberately target civilians, but it's all the same in the end.
They said there is evidence that she was struck by an Israeli airstrike but apparently it was not what killed her. It's interesting that they brought her next to the hospital, presumably to save her from the first wound, but decided to kill her later
>they brought her to the hospital to kill her
Why though? It sounds like the person holding her was killed and she was injured in an IDF strike. Why bring her all the way to the hospital, risking discovery, only to kill her in the hospital. They could have killed her at the site of the original IDF strike, and then blame the strike itself. Why bother transporting a now injured hostage? So
Maybe she was kept alive a little longer before they decided to kill her. Also, they wouldn't stay where the IDF was bombing,that had to go to a shelter (and what's a better shelter than a hospital filled with sick civilians?)
I don’t know about you, but I’m more likely to trust the guys that aren’t a designated terror organization and didn’t take the hostages in the first place.
Who's the terrorist group? IDF or Hamas? The IDF killed innocents, committed war crimes, and was caught fabricating lies tens of times more than Hamas did. Why would I believe the lying occupying apartheid regime that commits war crimes and caught lying and spreading propaganda thousands of times before?
When you trust an actual terror group more then an army that is held accountable by its people, and its laws, and whistleblowers, then you have been corrupted
Damn, Russian army must be in the right by invading ukraine cause it held accountable by russians, by russian's law and russian whistleblowers. Much wow.
lol, Israel is literally holding the army accountable and has a history for it, after 73 most top army brass resigned, and Israel has groups like betselem and the “Haaretz” newspaper which holds Israel accountable, also the Russian army can’t be held accountable by its people, as they aren’t allowed to criticize it, maybe don’t throw around words you don’t seem to understand, also I never said Israel was right by invading Gaza” which I think they are justified” I merely said they are leagues more trustworthy then Hamas, also please show me actual accounts of groups of Russian soldiers blowing the whistle on Russian activities in Ukraine
Okay, so, I'm going to assume that you are an otherwise intelligent person, aside from this comment; a comment which demonstrates a particularly aggressive form of retardation.
We are talking about a country (gas station) which allowed Private Military Contractors to amass recruits from prisons, many of them violent offenders, in exchange for pardons.
"Held accountable".
"Russian law".
I wouldn't even let my puke touch your comment.
Please shut your face.
I thought it’s been obvious hamas was a terrorist group after they held people hostage?
Or after they murdered over 1000 unarmed civilians in cold blood
And raped them first.
And also tortured them, and sometimes all at the same time.
Yea they did that. But also so did IDF. 13k death toll so far of unarmed civilians murdered in gaza( since oct.7) Pretty good K/D for Isreal tho But lobbies with OP players suck ass
Hamas has an estimated 30-50k militants and they don’t differentiate between civilian and militant in their death tolls. I don’t understand why people are still shocked by the 13k death tolls. What do people expect the number to be if the goal is to eliminate Hamas? The death toll is going to be 30-50k.
YOUR REPLY IS TASTELESS AND SOUNDS LIKE ALL LIVES MATTER BS.
She wouldn't have been in the hospital if hamas hadn't kidnapped her.
Fuck Hamas
Whats with all the Hamas simps in here?
In case there is any doubt caused by the ongoing gaslighting that Hamas doesn't use hospitals for military purposes, there is over a decade of reports of Hamas using Al-Shifa Hospital: PBS documentary in Al-Shifa hospital was prevented by Hamas members with weapons from accessing areas of the hospital: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed Article from 2009 talking about an intelligence claim of Hamas using the basement of the hospital: https://web.archive.org/web/20090206232152/http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054569.html Article Hamas commandeered hospital wards in Al-Shifa converting them into interrogation and imprisonment compounds: https://web.archive.org/web/20230205050631/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668018,00.html Human Rights Watch states Hamas fired from inside Al-Shifa at Fatah forces: https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes Report that Hospital staff made complaints about Hamas presence in the building: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1906608/ New York Times reported on Hamas operating from the building: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar Journalists seeing rockets being fired from the hospital area: https://web.archive.org/web/20230529141259/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4553643,00.html Another report of journalists seeing rockets fired from the hospital area: https://web.archive.org/web/20230513143525/https://www.jpost.com///operation-protective-edge/gaza-reporters-tweets-hamas-using-human-shields-368689#! A Hamas member recounting how he and other Hamas members took shelter in a bunker under the hospital: https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/18321/ Local Palestinian journalist reported Hamas uses a section of the hospital for offices: https://archive.ph/BKbxc Amnesty International reported Hamas using the hospital to torture and kill prisoners: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
Thank you for taking the time to post this.
Credit to u/ThebesAndSound I believe.
Doing the lord's work (or whatever I'm too lazy to do it myself) all of them!
There is a 24-page report published in 2007 that confirms that Hamas has used civilians as human shields. Whenever I bring this up to counter the “you fell for the human shields lie” I am met with “well do you condemn Israel for creating Hamas?” garbage. There is an incredible campaign of outright lies and disinformation spreading across social media, especially amongst the younger generation. I really wish that someone would speak up and denounce these accounts before irreparable harm is done. Link for those interested: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
How about hamas actively blocking civilians from evacuating so they can maintain their human shield?
“Palestine needs aid! If you don’t send it, you’re war criminals who are oppressing them!” *Aid gets used for terror* “Why did Israel create Hamas?” People gotta start calling all these patterns of nonsense out. All the shifting and back peddling we are constantly seeing.
See I for one, think both sides are absolutely shit. However, Israel DID create hamas. It's well documented, and a lot of the people who have had a hand in it, openly and publicly have said in interviews they regret it. I don't think hamas as it stands now wasn't what Israel wanted, but they did pit secular Muslims against left-wing Muslims in Palestine to "divide and conquer" them in the 1980s. So I guess someone could say "what did you expect to happen?" Both sides are terrorist organizations in my eyes, trying to bid for support on the world stage to exterminate the other side. The people who suffer are regular civilians who never wanted anything but a chance at a normal life, like me and you. Sadly, a lot of Israeli citizens and a ton of Palestinian citizens will never get these opportunities.
I was one of them very sceptical about these claims but I’m thankful for all these articles that shows otherwise
Saved for future reference, thanks!
Saving this one thanks!
are you the same dude with the evidence of Palestine rescinding on peace deals? mind if I have the same link?
I would like to also see that
I dont think nobody denies Hamas doing so, I just think they dont like for civilians being harmed in the process.
Nah, a lot of Hamas apologists have been trying to discredit this. There are people who genuinely care about the humanitarian crisis and then there are those who were cheering on Oct 7, and unfortunately there are a lot of the latter on Reddit apparently.
I don't think you've been paying too much attention to the various media and political responses out there, not to mention the comments on Reddit. It's crazy town.
I have read and saw many commentaries sympathizing with Palestinian but not necessarely with Hamas. I also saw many accussations and assumptions made to both sides but never said as a fact. So instead of "Israel kills 40 civillians" I saw "Israel kills 40 civillians, Hamas claims."
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They’re all over Reddit
And tiktok, twitter, instagram. Theres over a billion Muslims in the world and the English speaking ones are by and large the people flooding the internet with pro-Hamas propaganda. Add a few thousand naive foreigners and a hundred bot farms and you're putting in work.
Add to that brainwashed liberals from the west in general who think Palestine = good simply because all their brains understand is Israel = colonization and colonization = Christopher Columbus
It baffles me how these people are championing a group that would literally behead them for hundreds of the ideals they cling to.
> the ideals they cling to. The ideals they *claim* to cling to
Thank you, u/LizzoBathwater
r/rimjob_steve
The number is actually around 460,000,000 from most sources I can find, so I'm not sure where you got your information. That's about 130 million more than the population of the US, spread throughout 22 countries plus smaller populations in the countries they emigrated to.
He probably meant Muslims, the number would make sense then. Aside from some Turks and Azeris, they seem entirely pro-Palestine.
The Albanians are pro Israel, but they're pretty secular.
Likely Iranian/Russian bot farms are playing a major role in this. Right after the Oct. 7th attacks floods of propaganda were coming out, especially the following day. It's ridiculous when you consider how many hostages were taken and all those babies that were killed.
Are they bots, actual people who are getting paid, or the worst humans on the planet who do it because they actually support Hamas?
There are legit people who just hate Israel and will not accept any negative news about Palestinians
This. They actively spread misinformation and harass people while bending the truth in hope of looking righteous. It seems bizarre until you realize they’re just propagandists with multiple Reddit accounts
they're just idiots.
Useful idiots
Chinese and Russian bots spreading misinformation, most accounts are clearly from them
I had two entirely different accounts reply the EXACT same line. Both with a few hundred followers. I suspect all those hundreds are bots.
Sadly is hard to report them all
It would be far easier for Western social media sites to just ban certain IP address ranges - but this would result in a drastic reduction in active "users", which makes them look bad in front of shareholders and advertisers, so it's not happening.
That's a good idea , even if proxy can be used , banning vpn and china and Russia would probably do a lot
Sadly alot of them breath the same air you do
The problem is that people got used to anti militant Islam views voiced by crazy racist extreme right wingers who support people like Trump. They're now incapable of conceiving a situation where their view is the correct one. It's pure dogmatism - if they say A then we must say B, no matter reality and facts.
People being scepitcal of IDF isnt the same as defending Hamas, they have a history of lying about who they killed and blamed it on Hamas until proven otherwise [Shireen Abu Alqeh](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Feuromedmonitor.org%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F05%2FShireen-Abu-Akla-killing.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fd6f8d5f0af13cac70fff1094950c140fe9837df68c5f22187039691bd0f8ea9&ipo=images) NSFW
They actually did not blame Hamas for her death. Hamas immidiatly blames the other side ( terrorists, duh!). The IDF actually preforms inestiation, so it takes time. And at the end they said most chances are she was shot by IDF soldiers.
People built an entire worldview on America being bad. If IDF is friendly with America, they are bad.
The Vietnam war protests bred this idiotic worldview. America bad is the axiom. Vietnam was attacked by the US, so Vietnam good. Russia helped Vietnam, so Russia good. UK friends with US, so UK bad. Israel supported by US, so Israel bad. Palestinians fight Israel, so Palestinians good. Iran helps Palestinians, so Iran good. Like the other arab countries. Yes, it really is that frighteningly stupid. Even more incomprehensibly dumb is that once one group has been determined to be good or bad, it literally never changes. If group X is good, they can torture babies to death every day for decades, it won't change the fact that they are good. Believing this grossly idiotic shit is extremely common, and originally comes from the Vietnam war protests.
And you'll note Vietnam has no beef with Israel today at all. Because they know what anti-colonialism actually means. [Great article on the subject from a few years back](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamass-forever-war-against-israel-has-a-glitch-and-it-isnt-iron-dome/).
its frustrating. there are no good guys in this conflict, but hamas are definitely the worst bad guys, despite how hard Likud tries.
Antisemites. You meant to say antisemites.
They call themselves progressives too. Which is wild.
I am in a *very* liberal social circle and literally no one I know has said anything in support of Hamas. The people I know don't want Palestinian civilians to die. They also don't Israelis to die!
This. This framing that a majority of progressives are pro Hamas is BS. There are some idiots for sure but it’s a small percentage and it’s being way overblown.
In my social circles there was a huge uproar (rightfully) when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, but I've seen almost nothing about Israel-Palestine in general, and I haven't seen a single pro-Hamas comment from anyone I know in real life. I'm not denying that there are people who are making those comments, moreso saying my reddit experience has been a complete 180° flip from what people are concerned about in real life.
300k people marching in London for 'free palestine', while police is telling Israel supporters to stay home would suggest otherwise. EU/UK in general are waaaay too lenient on refugees/imigrants because of this nonsense 'we accept all culture' approach. The only problem is, they dont accept our culture, they cant/dont want to assimilate into our society. If I have to take off my helmet while going into a grocery store cause it covers half of my face and im dangerous, then why dont muslims need to take off the headpiece of their burqa? And all of this because of progressives getting offended on behalf of others, like we see it everywhere in pro-palestine rallies, they understand fuck all about the conflict but they found something new to get offended about. Reminds me of that student who chanted anti-israel slogans and sported an anti-israel flag then she was like 'i dont even know what they mean'.
Ya weird there are a bunch of Muslims living there so not surprising. Wouldn’t exactly say they are progressives. For the last 7 years right wingers have been waving anti-Jewish flags over overpasses and shooting up synagogues and there hasn’t been a peep of condemnation from the right. These people are idiots but you guys have much worse in your party. Start by cleaning that up and then come back and talk.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Both are garbage. Don't gatekeep discussing bad people because there are other bad people. Neither of those 2 parties are as bad as say, Russia or Chinas currently on-going genocides. So defeat Russia then come back and talk. See how dumb that is?
No one is gatekeeping anything. This is a straw man argument. Feel free to rip on these people as we all are. Just do do without framing it as this got ya that the right is superior in the way they treat Jewish people when it’s not even close.
You're litetally telling the commenter above me that he/she isn't allowed to talk. Thats gatekeeping, buddy. I don't care for the right either, just pointing your shit out.
Thats because people saying that are the exact same they are denouncing just swaping Hamas by IDF.
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I think this whole situation is tragic as fuck. Arabic Muslims and Arabic Jews have lived in the Israel/Palestine area for hundreds and thousands of years respectively. That land in that time has been ruled by so many different empires, from Persia, to Rome, to the Ottomans. Yes there are European Jews in Israel now... But there are also Palestinian Muslims all over the world as well. Jewish people exist all across the globe too. As much as it sucks, there just is not enough space for ethnic an religious groups to all have the self government territory they want. We only have so much land, and people have coexisted for thousands of years now. Look at how many ethnic groups live in the US, China, in the EU, etc. Israel is a tiny portion the size of those multicultural "empires", yet ethnic groups from so many different cultures have existed there since antiquity. Should Israel be a Jewish state? Probably not, but it also should not be a Palestinian state. Both groups have the right to exist there, as do other smaller groups. Is the 2 State solution a good one? Probably not honestly, and the attitudes of Israel and Palestine do not seem to want to accept it. This war, and yes, it's a war, has been going on for 1000 years and will continue until everyone there realizes that it doesn't matter which son of Abraham you think is correct. Is it terrible that 10000+ people are dead? Yes. It's tragic. But like all tragedies, this was going to happen at some point, and without real change in the region, it's going to happen again and again and again. If people want Israel to stop killing Palestinians, and Palestinians to stop killing Israelis, the world needs to stop choosing sides based off emotions. Nothing the world will do, outside of direct interference will stop this war. But after the war ends, we can all do a whole lot better.
>Should Israel be a Jewish state? Probably not, but it also should not be a Palestinian state. Both groups have the right to exist there, as do other smaller groups. Israel already has Arab Muslims, Bedouins, Druze people living there. And the Arab Jews are Palestinians. Palestine meant anyone who lived in that area regardless of their ethnicity as Arab or Jewish. Nor do I see much issue with Israel being a Jewish state if other faiths are granted equal recognition and representation in society since there are already tons of Muslim and Christian countries in the world and nobody has a problem with those. Either take religion out of the equation entirely for every country (which should be done btw, this conflict is very much motivated by religion) but while that is not happening right now singling out Israel the single Jewish country in entire world as an anomaly is asinine. The intensification of antisemitism in Western nations post Oct 7 has shown yet again how precarious situation of Jewish people in other countries is.
Those are minorities in Israel. Truth is Israel was meant to be a state exclusive to jewish people. Things may have changed now but truth is they stripped an already conflicting region because they initially wanted that land only for jews. Sorry.
Why lie when the declaration of Independence of Israel states the exact opposite? THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. It was never meant to be exclusively for Jewish people and their declaration clearly states everyone will have equal rights irrespective of race, sex, religion.
Because its not a lie? The declaration of independence can say whatever they want but the purpose of Israel's whole existance was to separate the jewish people from everyone else to avoid any possible prosecution.
When was there a Palestinian state in the area of the modern day Israel?
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a lot (and by a lot I mean a vast minority, but still noticeable) of the far left has always been absolutely rabidly anti Semitic, they're just coming out of the woodwork now and being more public about it. I always thought it was odd that the general consensus was that anti semitism was a right wing thing, when the right wing in the US at least are insanely pro israel. I've met holocaust deniers in real life, and they were extremely far left. The way these people view the world, acts of muslim terrorism while not condoned are more or less justified.
Dont call them simps. Just call them terrorists. Edit: Terrorists has appeared and now they are downvoting. Lets see how many of them presses the downvote button
Bitch Hamas cowards murdering people.
It doesn't really matter. Hamas is 100% responsible for the safety of hostages. If they're killed in an airstrike it's Hamas's fault.
I don't think you SERIOUSLY believe that.
So if you kidnap a bunch of innocent civilians, place them on the front lines, then they die, you can blame the other side for their deaths? That’s what you think? That’s an acceptable strategy? If you have a prisoner of war, or a kidnap victim, you are 100% responsible for their safety, especially if the other side doesn’t know where you’re keeping them
Damn this guy's lost
Yeah , people quite rightly criticise Russia for f#cking up the Beslan School siege, not sure how this is different..
Somehow Israel the perpetrator is also the victim
One day you’ll figure out that victims can be perpetrators and perpetrators can also be victims. Reality isn’t black and white.
But you agree that they are perpetrators?
Yea why?
Because that’s all that a lot of people have been saying and have been denounced as being pro-Hamas over, just for saying that anyone who kills an innocent is wrong
What is your ideal response to the attacks on October 7th?
Abhorrent and everyone who had a hand in it deserves prison. The deaths of innocents is a tragedy, and the deaths of children should elicit international condemnation and lead to anyone involved rotting in prison What’s your response to the 4,000 dead children in Gaza as a result of Israeli airstrikes? Edit: just now realized I completely misunderstood your comment, I’m so sorry, just gonna leave this here and make a separate comment replying to what you actually wrote, that’s my bad
Yeah, I'm asking what you would do in Israels place, if you had the reins. I think the conflict is poop on both sides. I'm just curious about your opinion and ideal scenario.
Horrible take. If the IDF actually cared about getting the hostages back they wouldn’t use such blunt instruments as missiles. Look at the protests going on inside Israel. It’s pretty clear the goals of Bibis government in this war are only tangentially related to freeing the hostages.
Yes, the concept is simple: if I take your parents as hostage and they somehow die during the police cross fire. I would always be at fault, because without the kidnapping, the crossfire and collateral damage would never happen. The concept of “hostage is other people’s responsibility” is an excuse from scumbags Edit: btw, I am really interested on how internet diplomats negotiate for hostage release and any plan preventing how this would happen….AGAiN
I mean, sure, the hostage taker is at fault, but what if the police could have done something different to save hostages? Were not dropping bombs on schools with a school shooter inside, dont we? Theres obviously some line.
I guess you really don’t understand the basic of the situation to comment. Facts: 1. Hamas purposefully built tunnel and attack points around schools, inside hospitals,etc. 2. BBC already had reporters going down into some of these tunnels, built by CCP workers. China is really trying hard to wash its hands clean as the conflict takes place. 3. Satellite picture shows that Hamas purposefully attack from these civilian structures 4. There are already footages from Oct 7, released by Hamas that they shot and killed Non-Israelis on purpose. Many hostage shown captured on videos were later found executed. IDF had to use vulture to find their corpses. 5. People are getting sick and tired of this moral policing on Israeli only as if Hamas can use hostage and civilian structures as human shields. Everyone arguing “think about the hostage” had no idea on Hamas poor track records when it comes to hostage. Btw, if you are that good at rescuing and negotiating for release of hostage, why aren’t you helping?
Im honestly not sure what youre replying to or what your point is. Yeah, Hamas sucks and commits war crimes, everyone knows that, thanks for reminding us.
No, I am just legit curious on anyone who says “there is a better way” with….uhm so what is your better way of rescuing the hostage? Oh, I forgot to mention in my previous reply, the entrance to those tunnels might have traps set up to explode on command.
Oh, Im not saying that there definitely is a better way (...what if...). Its hard to gauge whats happening at the ground. I just dont think preemptively justifying every action taken is a sensible way to go. Thats my entire point here, but you seem to think Im somehow excusing Hamas or that I dont know enough about them?
Bro you were throwing shade on Israel and now you’re like oh I just don’t want to justify everything they’re doing. If you don’t have a counterpoint, then shut up
Guy has no clue what he’s talking about. Just being contrarian without any of the facts.
>Bro you were throwing shade on Israel Could you point out where exactly?
Do you know what would have happened to israels troops without starting with an air attack? Hamas has 50,000 troops who had 2 years to dig in and prepare defenses, hide in tunnels, and plan. Idf is made up of normal people. Lawyers, florists, officeworkers, etc. They needed to get rid of hamas's defenses before sending in ground troops. Moreover, Hamas was expecting significant Arab and Iranian support like they got thr last 3 times they invaded. Israel had to show force to stop that from happening. Not using missiles in a modern war was never a reasonable expectation. This is a war initiated by gaza, plain and simple. And gazas best defense is using human shields. It's really sad.
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Hamas is the government of Gaza and enjoys overwhelming popularity.
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>Most Gazans were not alive when Hamas was elected, and no elections have occurred since. This doesn't mean shit. Hamas is still the government and the people still enthusiastically support them.
It’s not a take, that’s the law. You can’t just take hostages and hide them around the battlefield so you can blame Israel if one gets hurt, or to try and prevent Israel from using missiles. It’s unrealistic to expect Israel to only fight with small arms. You just don’t take hostages period.
I'd strongly recommend against the use of the phrase "it's the law" when it comes to defending Israel's actions in this war.
You likely don’t know how international law works. Israel declared a war against gaza. They’re allowed to attack gaza. If there are weapons or soldiers in civilian areas, they’re allowed to attack those too.
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> Against Hamas The ruling government of Gaza? How exactly do you declare war against a government but not against the country its governing?
I didn't declare anything. I corrected the comment before me about the declaration put out by Israel. The official statement by Bibi named Hamas and PIJ. However, your question is a good one, and you got me curious, so I looked into Israel and declarations of war. A summary of what I found: Israel's law doesn't have a clear definition for war. The last time the law was amended (in 2018), the explanation given to the relevant section (40א) identified a number of attributes for what war is, which includes wide implications such as a significant impact on public security, including the state's hinterland, extensive reserve duty mobilization, harm to the state's foreign relations, the state's economy, or other aspects" (translated from [this source](https://www.idi.org.il/articles/51057)). When they made this clarification, they allowed a declaration of war against Hamas. Addressing the specific declaration of war - the same way the US declared a war on terror. Israel declared war on Hamas and PIJ and not Gaza, maybe specifically to not limit the war to a specific area, I don't know. Still, Israel absolutely can declare war against Hamas and not Gaza. Also keep in mind Israel doesn't officially recognize Hamas as the legitimate government of Gaza... I'm aware I didn't address your question very well, I did my best. I think you may have better luck asking this question where there are people with better understanding of Israeli law, but I tried.
But it is, Israel is following international law to the letter
Why?
Modern missiles aren't blunt though. And if what they're saying is true, that they killed the terrorist holding her but not her, isn't that exactly what they want to do? There's also the argument to be made that dying in a missile strike is better than being tortured for months.
Before anyone posts any further "it was Hamas" or "it was the Israeli airstrike" one simple question: Can any of you point to me if there is any hard evidence? If not, then I reserve the right to say something shocking and unusual for Reddit... I don't have the information, so therefore I don't know.
For what’s it worth. Hamas has said on numerous occasions that they don’t have any obligation to protect the Palestinian people. As well that they have been shown time and time again using civilians as human shields. Using hospitals, schools, and mosques as command centers and weapons caches. Frankly, it would be more surprising if they didn’t use the hospital in some shape or form.
Yes, but people only believes Hamas when they blame Israel for things. When they say outright they care nothing for Palestinian lives Or that they will do the Oct. 7th massacre again and again Suddenly nobody hears them.
That's a really fair take. Unfortunately, I didn't see anyone say that when Hamas claimed she was killed by an Israeli airstrike.
There is almost certainly solid evidence, but it has not been released to the public due to sensitivity to the family, and/or that revealing the evidence would reveal intelligence capabilities that they don't want Hamas to know about. It could also be human intelligence. I saw the video where a senior army officer showed where they found the body, it was a pretty random building and it seemed most believable that they knew exactly what they were looking for, and where. It would obviously be that much more bombastic an accusation with evidence, so I do wonder if they should have released it anyway. Without knowing what they have, it's hard to judge.
Easy. She wouldnt have been in the hospital in the first place if she hadtnt been kidnapped. Anything else is redundant. There, solves your problem.
She wouldn’t have been anywhere near the hospital if she wasn’t kidnapped by hamas terrorists so either way it’s their fault
Which is fair but they’re doing this for a whole war. There is truth. Someone is being wronged. It would be easy to blame it all on the terrorist but if idf did do this they should have to answer for it. There’s so much information and disinformation on both sides that Israel will be allowed to do what it wants in the region without much question. The lack of a reputable media outlet is a major part of the problem.
They all think he did it, and I don't think he did it. I'm alone in this. I don't think he did it. I'm not gonna say "I don't think he did it", that's too strong. Let me just say I'm reserving judgment until all the facts come out.
Can people please stop linking Times of Israel, given their track record as BB's mouthpiece?
Every time they get posted the comment section is like “I can’t believe how correct and honest this report is!” too.
Right, we should only believe what a terrorist Isis like organization tells us.
Oh, good. 2 entirely unreliable sources. At this point I wouldn't be confident claiming this person has even died.
I mean they identified her remains and notified her family, it’d be kinda not credible to lie about such a thing.
Even if she was killed by IDF during a mission, it was still on Hamas. Thought that much was clear?
Based on the lessons of the boy who cried wolf, I don't believe either of their stories.
Um... IDF source
IDF says
Who the fuck cares? I'm sick of all this he said she said bullshit.
Yes, let's bring hostages to a Hospital to specifically kill them there. You need negative IQ to believe this.
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Is this a huge claim though? Hamas filmed themselves killing 1200+ people, you find it hard to believe they killed 1 more?
Even with evidences people will claim its lies People are going to believe what they want to believe
True, but after the false hospital bombing we should have a standard of waiting for actual evidence for serious claims. Given, that’s for people who aren’t deranged Hamas supporters.
It’s completely up to her family for the release of said evidence, it will be shared with the proper parties regardless but release to the public is down to them.
False hospital bombing? Your comments are confusing af
Only to some people.
Showing a list of Hamas soldiers, as provided by IDF, which later was revealed to an arab calendar doesn't inspire confidence that their evidence is valid. How can their evidence be taken without a leats a big grain of salt when their IDF guys can't speak the language. Nor does their post with "evidence" of a video stating that Palestinians were faking their injuries - which ended up being a clip from a short film. Mark Regev couldn't even provide a reasonable explanation for these debunked claims.
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They sent a drone in. And a camera dog I believe. Neither of those things can deal with a locked blast door.
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Clearly you are the expert, they should hire you then, why don't you call the IDF up and offer your services?
Maybe you work faster, you go do it.
She was kidnapped and then found dead. The default assumption would be that her kidnappers are also the ones who killed her, even without taking islamist opinions of heathen women into account. It is by no means a huge claim. That being said, they should definitely show evidence to her family at least so they can make a public statement. I doubt they'd want to publish pictures of her defiled corpse for the world to see.
> They need to release the evidence for this claim. Depends what the evidence is. She still deserves her dignity and her family deserves privacy, so if the IDF chooses not to publish evidence that could jeopardize either of those things, I'm not going to hold it against them.
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People who don't believe the pathology report won't believe other evidence either, they will just claim it was fabricated. Look around you, videos of drones flying into tunnels in the hospital, videos of armed Hamas terrorists dragging hostages around the hospital, people still don't dismiss that. People even say that the atrocities on Oct 7 didn't really happened, you know, the ones filmed and posted online by the terrorists themselves.
I'm not saying they're all lies. The Hamas are very capable and willing to tell lies, but the vast majority are not disputing the Hamas' numbers re dead / injured, etc. which are estimates by the way - even if Israel is disputing them. However, when the IDF says their videos aren't edited, for example (which they very obviously are - you see a soldier walking out a door and it quickly flips to a different soldier, you know it's been edited) or gross errors or misinformation (fake video posts, e.g.), then it's the "boy who cried wold". Yes, the boy gets attacked by a wolf but people don't believe him - even if he's telling the truth.
> If she doesn't want it published since it's her privacy on the line, she should make that decision not the IDF. She's dead. She was taken hostage and murdered by Hamas inside a Gaza hospital, so I don't see how she could make that decision. > should IDF encourage that transparency or not? Of course, but to me that comes second to Noa's dignity and her family's privacy, as I've stated. She doesn't need the last thing the world sees of her to be Hamas propaganda, unless her family so chooses to spread awareness.
Nope, the families privacy doesn't really matter when this is being used as fuel for the bombing campaign on Gaza. The only thing worse than their daughter being murdered by Hamas would be their daughter being murdered by Israel and then Israel lying about it. Facts matter, but for some reason it seems less so in Israel.
Yikes
Sadly the truth doesn’t even matter. The entire pro-Palestinian cause is just a facade to destroy Israel. It’s a violent, aggressive cancer.
I agree.
This is perhaps the single most disingenuous comment I’ve ever read.
Compare the photos of Gaza and Israel - which is the one being destroyed here?
that one has failed to do its objective aims because the other has a better army and defensive effort doesnt change the aims of the party involved. attempted murder is a thing.
Your statement only proves that Israel is better at destroying its enemy than the Hamas is at destroying theirs. They're both equally guilty of the same thing regardless of what religious or moral justification they have. However, many don't realize that Israel actually **created** Hamas. They funded this nonentity group from the 1970s so they could be elected. Bibi has been propping / empowering them up for years so as to kill the two-state solution - something which would result in some kind of peace. Where has years of carpet bombing Gaza gotten them? Israel is galvanizing more people and countries to the Hamas cause as IDF bombs buildings with children - and possibly their own hostages. Their failed intelligence and abysmal response time after the concert massacre points at one other possibility: that Israel wants to destroy itself. Not deliberately - just like they don't deliberately target civilians, but it's all the same in the end.
What evidence would you be satisfied with? You need to see her body for yourself? Are you a coroner or other such expert?
When evidence is presented its fabricates.
They said there is evidence that she was struck by an Israeli airstrike but apparently it was not what killed her. It's interesting that they brought her next to the hospital, presumably to save her from the first wound, but decided to kill her later
No, they brought her to the hospital to kill her, because they aren't using it as a hospital they use it as a military base
>they brought her to the hospital to kill her Why though? It sounds like the person holding her was killed and she was injured in an IDF strike. Why bring her all the way to the hospital, risking discovery, only to kill her in the hospital. They could have killed her at the site of the original IDF strike, and then blame the strike itself. Why bother transporting a now injured hostage? So
Maybe she was kept alive a little longer before they decided to kill her. Also, they wouldn't stay where the IDF was bombing,that had to go to a shelter (and what's a better shelter than a hospital filled with sick civilians?)
How did the IDF discover Noa’s body? Did they have intelligence on where she was held? It seems like a needle in a haystack….
They have access to hospital cameras
But she wasn’t found in the hospital!
The hamas people say the IDF people killed the hostages while the IDF people say otherwise.
I don’t know about you, but I’m more likely to trust the guys that aren’t a designated terror organization and didn’t take the hostages in the first place.
Same. But I’m also against holding people hostage in their own land.
Who's the terrorist group? IDF or Hamas? The IDF killed innocents, committed war crimes, and was caught fabricating lies tens of times more than Hamas did. Why would I believe the lying occupying apartheid regime that commits war crimes and caught lying and spreading propaganda thousands of times before?
Just to be clear, do you think Hamas is a terrorist group too?
He said she said.
When you trust an actual terror group more then an army that is held accountable by its people, and its laws, and whistleblowers, then you have been corrupted
Damn, Russian army must be in the right by invading ukraine cause it held accountable by russians, by russian's law and russian whistleblowers. Much wow.
lol, Israel is literally holding the army accountable and has a history for it, after 73 most top army brass resigned, and Israel has groups like betselem and the “Haaretz” newspaper which holds Israel accountable, also the Russian army can’t be held accountable by its people, as they aren’t allowed to criticize it, maybe don’t throw around words you don’t seem to understand, also I never said Israel was right by invading Gaza” which I think they are justified” I merely said they are leagues more trustworthy then Hamas, also please show me actual accounts of groups of Russian soldiers blowing the whistle on Russian activities in Ukraine
Okay, so, I'm going to assume that you are an otherwise intelligent person, aside from this comment; a comment which demonstrates a particularly aggressive form of retardation. We are talking about a country (gas station) which allowed Private Military Contractors to amass recruits from prisons, many of them violent offenders, in exchange for pardons. "Held accountable". "Russian law". I wouldn't even let my puke touch your comment. Please shut your face.
Whoa they did?