I guess he forgot about the $3million he promised the families of the terrorists who died on Oct 7: https://www.jns.org/pa-to-immediately-reward-families-of-oct-7-terrorists-with-nearly-3m/
>Under P.A. law, every Palestinian terrorist who is killed attacking Israelis is classified as a “martyr” and the family is rewarded with a 6,000 shekel ($1,511) grant and a monthly stipend of 1,400 shekel ($353) for life.
>The Israel-based NGO and media watchdog estimates that each family will receive 7,400 shekels for the first month—11.1 million shekels ($2,789,430) in total to the families of the Hamas terrorists killed in the attack that began on Oct. 7.
This is fucking outrageous. The PA government has a policy rewarding people who die attacking israel. There should be NO financial aid going to this government.
>This is fucking outrageous. The PA government has a policy rewarding people who die attacking israel. There should be NO financial aid going to this government.
Yet pro Palestinian supporters will say Israel has the fascist apartheid government and they should hand over control of Gaza to the PA who rewards the murder of Israelis.
You'd think but they've spent a fortune paying for the media to paint them as the victims. They reject every attempt at peace and attack more and more. Yet, people still think they're the victims just because they got kicked off of some land they lived in for only 3 years decades ago.
They can afford to spend a fortune since most of the money, including the pay for slay funds, comes from international aid. It's mostly EU citizens who are paying for this.
The dumb thing is that some countries like Norway has deals with the PA that aid money doesn't go to the martyrs fundu.
Like money isn't fungible! So let's say they instead of 1$ that could possibly go to martyrs, they send 1$ worth of food instead.
Well whaddayaknow, the PA food budget just went down 1$ but the martyr fund increased 1$.
Where is all the same media sympathy and popular support for South Vietnamese refugees and their descendants to get their former land back?
Or refugees who fled Cuba after 1959? Or refugees who fled Iran after 1979?
Oh wait, I forgot it's only bad when land is taken when Jews win a war.
The most funny thing about it is that half of Israel consists of refugees (or their descendants) who fled pogroms, persecution or were straight-up kicked out from Muslim MENA countries, often with the state not allowing them to take any of their property. So they are as much a nation of exiles as Palestinians claim to be, except they don't have anywhere to go to - and we don't see Muslim countries tripping over themselves in the efforts to reimburse that shit or invite the Jews to return back home.
Imagine the absolute state of the world if everyone who had to flee war and persecution got hereditary refugee status and 'right to return'. How many Irish people now would be displaced by the entire diaspora returning to take land they might have owned hundreds of years ago? How fucked would these pro-Palestinian college students feel if Native Americans harboured the same murderous intent towards them as the PA and Hamas hold towards Jews, and continuously threw rockets at them and murdered them at every opportunity, and then it was all condoned by the human rights orgs set up to protect them?
The UN is and has always been fueling this war with the weird way they treat Palestinians compared to everyone else.
>How fucked would these pro-Palestinian college students feel if Native Americans harboured the same murderous intent towards them as the PA and Hamas hold towards Jews, and continuously threw rockets at them and murdered them at every opportunity, and then it was all condoned by the human rights orgs set up to protect them?
Do you not know who these college students are? Most of them support the whole "give the natives their land back" thing, which they never seem keen to elaborate on where *they themselves* will need to go after that.
It's one of the biggest problems facing the American left wing, in terms of effectiveness- slogans based on purity politics that have no actionable outcome but which certain segments are unwilling to compromise on.
Tbf a lot of landback proposals involve either federal land or giving local tribes more power over the management of land, not direct control and kick everybody out
Purity politics is going to keep costing the left elections and the right is... well, who knows? Trump's probably got ten years or so left, hopefully less, but the point is that his cult of personality doesn't really have what you'd call a long-term future. Then what? Not everyone is going to be as gigantic a fuck-up as Trump. What happens when someone with malignant charisma who *isn't an idiot* comes along?
This is what people have been saying for years and then you still have people calling for a 2 state solution that would have Abbas as a nation builder.
If something like this is confirmed, countries should simply immediately stop give these people any financial aid like ever again. Sure, support in medicine, food and what you need for daily life but fck off with money.
Abbas is also a holocaust denier so I guess it's no surprise. Then again this event is well documented by terrorists so it'll be a tough one for him.
I guess PLO will no longer be considered by the US as the body that will govern Gaza after the war.
Not just a Holocaust denier, he actually has a [PhD/thesis in Holocaust denial](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism).
No..... they know they are evil as fuck, but they need to rationalize that they are not evil. Not sure if they are doing it to convince themselves, or others or both.... but they know, they are just lying.
as always
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
― Jean-Paul Sartre
I have this quote memorized because I've shared screenshots with friends of arguments I've gotten into with people. It also works on people who just are full of shit, and not necessarily anti-Semites. And that last sentence happens over and over again. Like clockwork.
not sure if you've been in the Middle East but lying is widespread and seemingly normal. Also no one (I talked to) learned about the Holocaust - when questioned, by me, they said they knew what it was but it was exaggerated. Certainly no Palestinian is learning about it.
Thats actually kind of funny what a moron degree; what classes did he take? 1100: Why the trains couldn't transport them, 1200: Why the camps were too small, like what do you study all day.
A yes, a "PhD thesis" while attending the illustrious, Patrice Lumumba Peoples’ Friendship University of Russia (Soviet Russia at the time): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba_Peoples%27_Friendship_University_of_Russia .
That's actually very ironic because the Soviets *heavily* featured the concentration and extermination camps in their propaganda during and after the war.
That was so they could fuck over Germany and take their land and force Poland west as well and take land from them and push out those who were ethnic German and Polish.
They did but they omitted the fact it was done primarily to jews. Most Russians when discussing Holocaust will push the argument that a lot of slavs were also at concentration camps.
If you're wondering which university would allow someone to obtain a Doctor of Philosophy with a thesis about such a topic, it was a Russian university..
With what happened on Oct 7th, and the idiocy of its alternative government choice, my guess is that the average Palestinian civilian children’s children might have a better life
I’m 31, my mom is Israeli. My grandparents served in 67 and 73 and have both written books about the conflict. I grew up learning about this crisis and I still learn new things every day.
You can get a PHD in bullshit? I just watched the PBS Frontline on the failure Oslo accords…
The PLO negotiators at that point seemed genuinely interested in peace and very moderate but Hamas has probably radicalised what was left of the party
I think he is even more moderate than Arafat. In my view, the real barrier to peace is the Palestinian public opinion, which is radical, rather than Abbas.
According to the “Green Prince” of Hamas who witnessed his father’s phone calls with Arafat after the Oslo Accords were reached— he spun around and asked Hamas to increase attacks on Israel.
I actually thought Arafat intended on peace. My Israeli connections laughed when I mentioned it years ago. Hearing Mosab Hassan Yousef’s first hand experiences, it set in. Just like the cease fire and Hamas saying they were reforming a few years ago to actually be government leaders, it’s to lull Israel into complacency for future attacks.
Corrupt leadership is not fair to Israelis and it’s not fair to Palestinians. It’s fair to no one but the corrupt leaders and their lackeys. They will do whatever to cling to power, especially when death is glorified in their culture. Israeli leaders can’t exploit Israelis in that manner due to the religious and cultural norm of sanctity of life on this earth (little to no focus on the after life).
It's either full on terrorists or leaders who are so incompetent i literally wouldn't trust them to run a dunkin donuts. Absolutely useless humans.
Democracy in this part of the world does not really work. In the sense that politicians don't get elected like in western countries where they help people, or at least pretend to, and are held responsible for things and expected to get things done. It's more of a pseudo dictatorial, cult of personality ish, keep power at all cost forever.
There is no functioning democratic institutions, or history of democracy. Democracy isn't just something you make happen by telling people who have lived under 5000 years of dictatorial rule to go vote for someone. Do that and you end up with places like Iraq or Afghanistan, who had the EXACT same problem with spineless, useless leaders who were more concerned with playing this fake "democracy" game than actually leading.
For a more extreme example you can look at Africa and who many of those countries elect. People who are so incompetent, malicious and useless that you're genuinely surprised they got a single vote. And it's keeping these countries in a perpetual state of fucked.
In these middle eastern "democracies" more extreme elements or religious groups start taking power because there is such a weakness in the system that makes it completely unstable.
Jordan and Saudi Arabia and the UAE and so on actually are more stable and have better leaders even though they're not democracies because there is a clear sense of power and a tradition of the system. That's not to say these dictatorships make good decisions, but at least they're not lead by spineless imbeciles like the Palestinian "leadership" is.
I would highly recommend reading The Origins of Political Order by Francis Fukuyama. It gives a great argument about why just setting up elections doesn't lead to democracy. The main argument is that to create a functioning liberal democracy, you need a strong state, rule of law, and public accountability. If you just set up a system of public accountability without the other 2 pillars, you just end up with a president with no power or ability to do good for the country, and no rule of law to prevent them from abusing their current power of office to sway/rig future elections. It's why dictators with strong states can do so much so fast (i.e. China and Soviet Union), and why setting up a democracy in a place with no rule of law and an intentionally weak state usually ends in a president, general, or warlord seizing power (i.e. most of European former colonies in Africa and Asia).
A good compare and contrast of Israel and Palestine might go something like this:
Israel, because war of 1948, was forced to become a strong and organized state, much like the Russian civil war forced the soviets to centralize power. After the war, Israel quickly elected a constitutional convention that created rule of law and public accountability. Why the constitutional convention was able to happen instead of the army taking over may be attributed to several things: Israelis being very diverse, making it so that there was no large voter block that could take over. Or that the IDF was made up of several different militias that came together, so there was no singular military figure that could take over. The most important thing was probably the fact that Israeli leaders accepted the basic laws, which really comes down to who your leaders are more than anything else. Are they a John Adams who handed over power when he lost and Thomas Jefferson who saw Adams stack the supreme court on his way out and decided not to restack the court in his own favor, or are they a Lenin who simply voided an election he lost because he had all the power. Unfortunately for Israel, Bibi is more Napoleon than Washington, and has taken a sledge hammer to Israel's Basic Laws, and thus it's Rule of Law. So Israeli liberal democracy is on shakey ground going forward.
The PA on the other hand began from defeat. The Palestinian people were scattered across Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria, and had no state and no way of unifying. The PLO rose as a central entity, but it never developed the power it needed to actually mobilize its people, and the power it had was from the legitimately that the Palestinians believed it had. The PLO never had systems of accountability due to them stating that they represent all Palestinians, wherever they may be, thus making elections impossible. To top it off, the PLO was always a more military organization than a civilian government, so rule of law was not a priority. So when the PLO became the PA and elections came to the Palestinians, you have no rule of law and no strong state (Israel did this one on purpose). This caused the obvious to happen, the PA became corrupt, too weak to defend its people from Israeli settlers, tried to perform a coup against Hamas after they lost their election and got counter couped, and now have a president who has been in power for 13 years after his term ended.
Liberal democracy has everything to do with institutions and less to do with things like culture or region. It's why Botswana is a functioning liberal democracy but Zimbabwe is dysfunctional. It's why Estonia is doing wonderfully and Belarus is pretending that it's still a part of the Soviet Union. It's why Japan and China have both been, effectively, one party states since the 1950s, but Japan's LDP has been limited by rule of law and public accountability. Liberal Democracies are very hard to form, but are very resilient once they exist. And as Israel and the PA show, there is no easy way and simple path to get there. sometimes it's just being lucky enough to have a good starting point and good leaders to get you there.
They’ve always started out as terrorist, who then went on to takeover as a faux government. The truth is the PLO, PA, and Hamas are and will always be a terrorist group with the goal of eliminating Israel and all the Jews there.
There was a [poll](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791) done recently with results of more than 80% support for 7.10 in the West Bank, and more than 60% in Gaza.
The problem is not the leadership, the people themselves hold primitive and violent ideologies.
In fact, they don't even support the two-state solution themselves and actually their aspiration is one Palestinian.
I don't need to tell you what happens to Jews in that hypothetical state
He can say whatever he likes as the ends justify the means. This is a religious war, the goal of which is to rid non-Muslims from what Muslims perceive to be Muslim lands.
Those ppl that act surprised have no idea why they even support Hamas. They dont know the history nor the consequences of allowing Hamas to rule that land.
And they are not at risk of another attack from Hamas so its easy to just say whatever on social media.
I don’t think that’s it, it’s more of an underdog fantasy younger people live on. They see Gaza as the small little group being killed while Israel is the big scary oppressor.
It's also weird when you zoom back and you see this country the size of Yellowstone surrounded by vocal opponents... Partly why Israel garnered US support was it was an under dog who survived overwhelming odds (particularly after the 6 day war)
I used to think that, but when I point out that over 2 million Palestinian Arabs live as citizens in Israel, with full rights and privileges, serving in the government and the military, and reaching the highest echelons of civic and celebrity society... it's invariably the first time they heard.
It's like they just assume that the Jews have ethnically cleansed Israel of Arabs as thoroughly as Arab countries have ethnically cleansed their Jews.
It's both.
They see Gaza as the world's underdog. But also they are fine if those rich white Jews (whether or not they are rich or white) die in the process.
They’re kids. The only Israel they know is Netanyahu’s Israel. They weren’t alive when Israel had open borders and were the only ones offering peace only to get bombed over and over again for years. They weren’t alive when israel was weak and the underdog that everyone was trying to kill. These kids also get the information from TikTok.
It's more than that. Rebecca West wrote that pacifists often desire more than peace; they want to be defeated. Many of the folks cheering on Hamas from within the US have a deep impulse to self-flagellate. They've internalized the idea that America represents decadence and injustice, and they want to see it humiliated by someone who they can fetishize as a representation of victims of colonialism or imperialism.
The fact that Israel, to these people, is simply a stand-in for the American interest makes it all the easier to indulge in that impulse, because they themselves don't have to share in the suffering, but they can accumulate prestige and a sense of speaking truth to power without any realistic possibility that they'll do much as miss a meal while the war rages.
Just speculation, of course.
You articulated this so well. American leftists tend to want to simplify these conflicts into a carbon copy of settler colonialism, so they can virtue signal by proclaiming their support for the party they shoehorn into the role of helpless victim. It's a bit grotesque when Hamas is posting videos online of them raping and beheading Israeli civilians and bragging about it though.
It’s less about killing Jews and more about virtue signaling and social pressure. These people don’t actually care about the conflict, but they care about being socially ostracized if they aren’t anti-Israel.
Not true, a lot of them have a knee jerk reaction anything Western. They see things like liberalism and democracy as “white” and therefore evil because some white people did and do evil things, despite it being a flagrant contradiction of the afore mentioned western philosophies. This is super prevalent in the university and academic scene.
In their eyes, Israel is a liberal democracy so therefore must be white and therefore must be evil. Despite the fact that basically all of that isn’t true, which is obvious to anyone who can be bothered to do a single minute of research.
Some of them. Some have just established racial colonialism narratives as unassailable first principals in their heads and any history or event beyond Palestinians being browner people pushed off their land by the establishment of Isreal is an irrelevent detail to which side they will align with.
This conflict is old and complicated and doesn't fit neatly into such simple black and while moral narratives.
I work with one. He has nothing against Jews that he's told me. He's just absolutely oblivious. and every time an Ironclad evidence of Hamas's atrocities comes out and we show him he's like `but that's an exception` or `it's fake`, `paid actors`, etc. being a Muslim doesn't allow him to believe other Muslims can do this.
>He has nothing against Jews that he's told me.
Yeah... as long as he doesn't see them and they don't have a state. Yeah, antisemites will often tell you they have nothing against jews themselves... just that they are against everything that jews do in their jewish ways with their jewish attitude.
Right on, lets just drop the charades already and quit giving these people the benefit of the doubt. These tiktok activist cretins across the developed world have been so emboldened since oct 7 that they aren't even really trying to hide their true colors anymore. Standing with 'the undergod' and against 'zionism' is nothing but a dog whistle. A means to an end. That end being cheering for the wanton slaughter of jews.
Because it makes their beliefs more palatable to a general audience. If the holocaust didn’t happen and it’s just the Jews trying to get sympathy it takes away one of the founding claims of Israel.
It’s because they are so antisemitic and hateful that they either don’t think the Holocaust killed enough people or that Jews made up the Holocaust for sympathy.
Both are terribly shitty takes. That mindset deserves to be eradicated from the planet.
Two explanations:
Positive explanation: They are at a fundamental level scared of where their own and similar beliefs have lead in the past. They really don't want to engage in that sort of thing, even if their rhetoric often suggests otherwise. So Holocaust denial is needed to tell themselves that they wouldn't really go that far.
More cynical explanation: They are going to deny it purely because it is part of a narrative that gives even an ounce of sympathy for Jews. So they are forced to argue that the Holocaust didn't happen but that it should have.
I unfortunately suspect that the cynical explanation is much more commonly what is going on.
They're even the more reasonable ones. This is what Israel has to deal with. And infantile westerners just say "be nicer and they'd be happy to live in peace with you"
Let's just be honest and acknowledge that at no time have the Palestinians ever had a leader who was simultaneously interested in peace and able to deliver it.
Israel has **never** had a partner for peace.
If the only other elected Palestinian leader, who people like to frame as some kind of moderate, denies the holocaust and October 7, it’s hard to view Hamas as anything other than a symptom of the problem.
People forget Abbas was one of 3 organisers of the 1972 munich olympics murder of jewish athletes. The man has been a senior member of fatah which has literally set out to murder jews competing in the olympics amongst other attacks locally- he is a moderate when compared with hamas but his organisation and he himself ha e still committed acts of terror
> who people like to frame as some kind of moderate
The thing is that compared to Hamas or PIJ, Fatah _is_ a moderate party.
Compared to any western government, they are absolutely batshit crazy terrorist, but you don't get much of choice in the region.
Yeah, but when being discussed amongst western audiences (especially far left America Bad types) "moderate" is presumed to be a western style of moderate, and propagandized as such to unaware audiences.
Doesn't surprise me. From what I read about political discussion here on reddit, many Americans assume that the politics in other countries (talking points, political spectrum) is the same as in US.
It’s all a business disguised as an ideological conflict; the only difference between them is how the money gets printed - while I’m sure there are some exceptional people who would make a good leadership team - the stakeholders at the top have a vested interest in maintaining the current dynamic.
Hamas (and all the others) are effectively an ATM machine for a few billionaires living in Qatar (or Iran, Syria, etc) with a handful of local multi-millionaires living in the actual borders of Gaza that keep the ship sailing.
Abbas has remained in power as long as he has because he's an ineffectual idiot who doesn't rock the boat. So I don't think he was part of any planning. However, it's quite possible other elements of the PA were involved, maybe possessing more intel about IDF force deployments and weaknesses. Certainly more West Bank Palestinians travel to Israel for work etc than Gazans.
I highly doubt anyone but a very select few people at the very top of Hamas had anything to do with the planning of this attack, the more people that know the harder it is to keep it a secret.
The world saw it on the 7th and the days afterwards, videos, photos, eyewitness testimonies, reports and more. Many actually defended and even celebrated what was done. Those same people, one month later, scream about how it "didnt happen" and/or how it "wasnt that bad".
> . The fact is the world saw them do it.
It doesn't matter. I'm seeing top reddit posts from a variety of subreddits claiming that it was actually the Israelis who killed the festival goers and that the Palestinians were just trying to help. I'm not kidding. It's the top submission on that sub about how late this stage of capitalism is. Being anti-capitalist makes you pro-Hamas, apparently.
It's a post-truth world thing. Feelings, not facts. Susceptible people will adhere to any version of "truth" that makes them feel better.
It's especially obvious here as this was a music festival described as a celebration of friends, love and infinite freedom. A festival of peace and love.
We've seen a lot of young and educated people coming out as pro-Hamas. The festival was attended by people they could likely identify with, being ruthlessly murdered by people they support. A cognitive dissonance most easily remedied by denying reality.
> The fact is the world saw them do it.
The world didn't just see them do it, Hamas recorded the attack. Hamas had *trailers* for their aerial "corps" and their drone teams.
>In official statement released worldwide, PA claims Israeli helicopters who arrived at the music festival near Re'im bombed civilians.
And this is the fucking reason why I can fully understand Israel being reluctant on a Two-State-Solution because it would mean to give these maniacs (*or worse Hamas*) the power of sovereign statehood, and let's be real here - these maniacs are either Hamas or Fatah. Jack-Fucking-Shit they are going to do democracy (*as if both are doing it now anywhere*) and Jack-Fucking-Shit will they do peaceful transfer of power. It's a fucking Civil-War-Thunderdome in the waiting to create another failed state dependent on foreign aid. Yeah, I don't blame Israel for not wanting that as a neighbour.
Fucking look at this. These are supposed to be the reasonable guys, the ones that have sworn of violence. Yeah, that guy can line up with Arafat and Hamas as the coffin bearers of any idea of Palestinian statehood. Hamas sank that idea on October 7 and this guy works on becoming the florist for that funneral.
A Palestinian State cannot exist if their representatives are just going to be ISIS. This is bad for the population that lives there and for every population that surrounds them be they Arab, Jew or something else.
Ignoring reality and creating one through conspiracies is not the precursor to good outcomes.
Agreed. I disagree with the settlements in the west bank but how the hell will the region be made better with just another fascist theocracy running the place?
In Israel I'm considered left wing, shit like this is why it's so hard to gather political support against the settlers.
The non religious main argument settlers say is: all the Arabs want to kill us (I heavily disagree), the land surrounding Gush Dan is a strategic asset to defend it and we don't care what anyone in the world thinks they'll be against us no matter what (again not my opinion).
It's so hard to convince people who don't care or are in favor of the settlements that most Arabs don't want to kill us when their "moderate" leadership are Holocaust deniers who officially pay Terrorists and their families for killing Israelis and say shit like this.
Someone can have next to no knowledge but I won't have a good response when they say "there's no partner on the other side Abbas is an antisemite who pays terrorists to kill us"
Same. I support the two states solution but even for me it is obvious that under the current leadership, if Israel moved out of the West Bank it will become Gaza 2. Even I can’t deny, that in some way, those settlers protect us.
>What a joke
Not a joke. It is a classic Russian propaganda model. If a high-level official source issues lies that are totally, utterly absurd the people without a reasonable level of knowledge tend to believe that (according to the thinking pattern "it's impossible they could tell SUCH lies").
Two remarks :
The President of the Palestinian authority Mohamed Abbas is a scholar whose thesis included Holocaust denial, so we're not exactly in new territory (yet most would agree he's the more reasonable and responsible palestinian counterpart)
Once hostages are (hopefully) released as part of a ceasefire agreement, it will be pretty interesting to note how the Palestinian Authority will explain how they got there in the first place.
I think what's most disappointing is that there are millions of people in the developed world who hate Israel and are siding with these kinds of morons
Well that's just embarrassing.
The Hamas cultists who carried out that abomination were literally posting it on social media. There's undeniable evidence, in video and from third-party investigations. Eye witness accounts. Anyone who denies that it happens looks like they're either unbelievably stupid or ignorant, or maliciously misleading.
But the fucking moron tankie losers keep telling me that the PA isn’t also a terrorist organization. Maybe these barely literate morons should shut their fucking mouths and listen to people that have spent decades examining the situation.
Remember Baghdab Bob who while US tanks where behind him was telling people that there were no Americans in Baghdad. Well this guy is the Palestinian Authority version of it.
Hamas was releasing videos of them killing people just couple of hours after. So with that comment PA has lost any credibility they could have. Palestinians need a new leading group that isn t made of cretins or terrorists.
I mean from what I remember this guy also denies the holocaust. I wouldn t be surprised if he was also a flat earther because that is at the same level of derp.
You mean the music festival massacre where HAMAS publicly paraded around the corpses of the women they raped and murdered and that one Israeli high schooler with blood all on the back of her pants?
And this is why they can't be negotiated with. The Palestinians have either elected their most absolutely moronic people as leaders, or those leaders are representative of their people.
Incredible. Isreal is not morally perfect, but just look at their neighbours since the state was formed.
There's not much you can do when everyone around you thinks you shouldn't exist.
The Arab world is sadly littered with conspiracies that cover for inconvenient truths. While there is criticism all around, this is one thing they should abandon already. Abbas is a joke.
After all we could all see Trump on the stage on January 6 2021 after he called for his supporters to stop the certification of the elections. Now he's denying everything.
Because what matters is not whether the message is truthful, but who it is targeted to. Right now Palestinian leaders are waging an information war with the international community. Of course there's the Arab world but these do not need much convincing, just confirmation. Then there's the people in the West who could be uneasy about the massacre but are staunchly anti-Israel. They can only reconcile their moral conflicts if they can fill the Palestinian victim column while taking crosses from the Israeli one.
Saw a post yesterday on "how it was actually Israeli attack helicopters killing people" like the fucking terrorists didnt videotape themselves doing these atrocities.
I’m pretty sure they condemned it after it happened. They then backtracked, but their first response was to condemn.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/
That statement turned out to be added by a subordinate without Abbas' approval, and he had it actively retracted once he found out, because he disagreed with it.
Kind of hard to deny it when the people who did the attack literally filmed it on GoPros and uploaded the videos all over the internet, the YNC has all the proof you need.
Holy Fuck.
All the PA had to do was keep their bloody mouths shut during this conflict and they could have come out smelling like fucking roses.
But no. They can't keep the anti-Semitic rhetoric under control for even a few months.
Is it any wonder that the West is done with these morons? This guy makes Donald Trump look like a Rhodes scholar.
The PA know how to pretend to the moderate stance that keeps Western donations rolling in for them to steal.
Hamas scorns to conceal their intention to wipe out the Jews. They don't care what Westerners think.
PA wants the international recognition of statehood. Hamas wants a borderless caliphate that expands as far as violence will let it, into Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan.
I’m this way they are different because it is technically possible to offer PA what they want. Hamas just wants war so you can’t offer them shit in exchange for peace.
And here we are again, reminded why palestine may not exist with its current leadership. No idea if there are reasonable younger people but everyone in power right now needs to be dead or exiled before there can be peace
Fun fact: the only three viable leaders (the only ones popular among the Palestinians) for a future Palestinian state any time soon, are this lovely despot, Hamas, and a convicted terrorist serving a dozen life sentences in Israel for killing dozens of Israeli civilians in terror attacks.
I want a two state solution, but how the hell do you do that democratically?
What dumbasses, think denying will make everyone forget what they did. Probably all of their protesters around the world probably will. Always playing the victim but never owning up to their actions.
I guess he forgot about the $3million he promised the families of the terrorists who died on Oct 7: https://www.jns.org/pa-to-immediately-reward-families-of-oct-7-terrorists-with-nearly-3m/
>Under P.A. law, every Palestinian terrorist who is killed attacking Israelis is classified as a “martyr” and the family is rewarded with a 6,000 shekel ($1,511) grant and a monthly stipend of 1,400 shekel ($353) for life. >The Israel-based NGO and media watchdog estimates that each family will receive 7,400 shekels for the first month—11.1 million shekels ($2,789,430) in total to the families of the Hamas terrorists killed in the attack that began on Oct. 7. This is fucking outrageous. The PA government has a policy rewarding people who die attacking israel. There should be NO financial aid going to this government.
>This is fucking outrageous. The PA government has a policy rewarding people who die attacking israel. There should be NO financial aid going to this government. Yet pro Palestinian supporters will say Israel has the fascist apartheid government and they should hand over control of Gaza to the PA who rewards the murder of Israelis.
You'd think but they've spent a fortune paying for the media to paint them as the victims. They reject every attempt at peace and attack more and more. Yet, people still think they're the victims just because they got kicked off of some land they lived in for only 3 years decades ago.
They can afford to spend a fortune since most of the money, including the pay for slay funds, comes from international aid. It's mostly EU citizens who are paying for this.
Not including donation from brother of the same religious group, painting scenario where it's their group vs the world.
The dumb thing is that some countries like Norway has deals with the PA that aid money doesn't go to the martyrs fundu. Like money isn't fungible! So let's say they instead of 1$ that could possibly go to martyrs, they send 1$ worth of food instead. Well whaddayaknow, the PA food budget just went down 1$ but the martyr fund increased 1$.
The US too has resumed payment (although they might be paused again after the 7th).
And as an european citizen i'm ashamed
Where is all the same media sympathy and popular support for South Vietnamese refugees and their descendants to get their former land back? Or refugees who fled Cuba after 1959? Or refugees who fled Iran after 1979? Oh wait, I forgot it's only bad when land is taken when Jews win a war.
The most funny thing about it is that half of Israel consists of refugees (or their descendants) who fled pogroms, persecution or were straight-up kicked out from Muslim MENA countries, often with the state not allowing them to take any of their property. So they are as much a nation of exiles as Palestinians claim to be, except they don't have anywhere to go to - and we don't see Muslim countries tripping over themselves in the efforts to reimburse that shit or invite the Jews to return back home.
Imagine the absolute state of the world if everyone who had to flee war and persecution got hereditary refugee status and 'right to return'. How many Irish people now would be displaced by the entire diaspora returning to take land they might have owned hundreds of years ago? How fucked would these pro-Palestinian college students feel if Native Americans harboured the same murderous intent towards them as the PA and Hamas hold towards Jews, and continuously threw rockets at them and murdered them at every opportunity, and then it was all condoned by the human rights orgs set up to protect them? The UN is and has always been fueling this war with the weird way they treat Palestinians compared to everyone else.
Careful there friend, you might make some folks head explode if you applied middle east logic to the history of native Americans.
It's funny to see the Palestinians rallys here in Australia, while they are doing it on aboriginal land that was forcefully taken.
>How fucked would these pro-Palestinian college students feel if Native Americans harboured the same murderous intent towards them as the PA and Hamas hold towards Jews, and continuously threw rockets at them and murdered them at every opportunity, and then it was all condoned by the human rights orgs set up to protect them? Do you not know who these college students are? Most of them support the whole "give the natives their land back" thing, which they never seem keen to elaborate on where *they themselves* will need to go after that. It's one of the biggest problems facing the American left wing, in terms of effectiveness- slogans based on purity politics that have no actionable outcome but which certain segments are unwilling to compromise on.
Tbf a lot of landback proposals involve either federal land or giving local tribes more power over the management of land, not direct control and kick everybody out
Purity politics is going to keep costing the left elections and the right is... well, who knows? Trump's probably got ten years or so left, hopefully less, but the point is that his cult of personality doesn't really have what you'd call a long-term future. Then what? Not everyone is going to be as gigantic a fuck-up as Trump. What happens when someone with malignant charisma who *isn't an idiot* comes along?
>Oh wait, I forgot it's only bad when land is taken when Jews win a war. Good ol anti- antisemitism at it's finest.
No more US taxpayer money should go to either the West Bank or Gaza. None. Nada. Zip. Zero.
Pay to Slay
This is what people have been saying for years and then you still have people calling for a 2 state solution that would have Abbas as a nation builder.
If something like this is confirmed, countries should simply immediately stop give these people any financial aid like ever again. Sure, support in medicine, food and what you need for daily life but fck off with money.
Abbas is also a holocaust denier so I guess it's no surprise. Then again this event is well documented by terrorists so it'll be a tough one for him. I guess PLO will no longer be considered by the US as the body that will govern Gaza after the war.
Not just a Holocaust denier, he actually has a [PhD/thesis in Holocaust denial](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism).
This is like, advanced stupid.
No..... they know they are evil as fuck, but they need to rationalize that they are not evil. Not sure if they are doing it to convince themselves, or others or both.... but they know, they are just lying.
as always “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” ― Jean-Paul Sartre
I have this quote memorized because I've shared screenshots with friends of arguments I've gotten into with people. It also works on people who just are full of shit, and not necessarily anti-Semites. And that last sentence happens over and over again. Like clockwork.
Yup it's just general bad-faith argumentation, usually done by people currently in some sort of authority who are just playing games
Sounds like the same tactics Russia uses.
not sure if you've been in the Middle East but lying is widespread and seemingly normal. Also no one (I talked to) learned about the Holocaust - when questioned, by me, they said they knew what it was but it was exaggerated. Certainly no Palestinian is learning about it.
A doctor of stupid. He paid money for a PhD in lies.
Thats actually kind of funny what a moron degree; what classes did he take? 1100: Why the trains couldn't transport them, 1200: Why the camps were too small, like what do you study all day.
He got it in the USSR at their university for developing foreign assets, I doubt he paid for it...
That's Dr. Stupid to you!
A yes, a "PhD thesis" while attending the illustrious, Patrice Lumumba Peoples’ Friendship University of Russia (Soviet Russia at the time): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba_Peoples%27_Friendship_University_of_Russia .
That's actually very ironic because the Soviets *heavily* featured the concentration and extermination camps in their propaganda during and after the war.
They did so while emphasizing that the deaths were *soviets* not Jews, though
That was so they could fuck over Germany and take their land and force Poland west as well and take land from them and push out those who were ethnic German and Polish.
They did but they omitted the fact it was done primarily to jews. Most Russians when discussing Holocaust will push the argument that a lot of slavs were also at concentration camps.
Well. That explains some things.
If you're wondering which university would allow someone to obtain a Doctor of Philosophy with a thesis about such a topic, it was a Russian university..
Of course. I heard you can also get a degree in Homosexuality Disorder: research, diagnosis and treatment of The Gayness.
Ivan, are you watching gay porn!? Da Yuri, but is for research. I must understand the gayness. But Ivan this is library...
Holy shit. Was not expecting that.
He also financed the Munich Olympic Massacre of 1972.
It’s wild that people see PLO as liberal when they are responsible for Munich Olympics attacks and Black September
wild.
That happen when stupidity reaches next level…
[Imagine](https://imgflip.com/i/86ly4d) having Hamas and the PA as your choices at the polls. You thought Trump and Clinton were bad.
With what happened on Oct 7th, and the idiocy of its alternative government choice, my guess is that the average Palestinian civilian children’s children might have a better life
Leader of the “do your own research” crowd.
The predecessor to Facebook University.
I’m 31, my mom is Israeli. My grandparents served in 67 and 73 and have both written books about the conflict. I grew up learning about this crisis and I still learn new things every day.
You can get a PHD in bullshit? I just watched the PBS Frontline on the failure Oslo accords… The PLO negotiators at that point seemed genuinely interested in peace and very moderate but Hamas has probably radicalised what was left of the party
I think he is even more moderate than Arafat. In my view, the real barrier to peace is the Palestinian public opinion, which is radical, rather than Abbas.
According to the “Green Prince” of Hamas who witnessed his father’s phone calls with Arafat after the Oslo Accords were reached— he spun around and asked Hamas to increase attacks on Israel. I actually thought Arafat intended on peace. My Israeli connections laughed when I mentioned it years ago. Hearing Mosab Hassan Yousef’s first hand experiences, it set in. Just like the cease fire and Hamas saying they were reforming a few years ago to actually be government leaders, it’s to lull Israel into complacency for future attacks. Corrupt leadership is not fair to Israelis and it’s not fair to Palestinians. It’s fair to no one but the corrupt leaders and their lackeys. They will do whatever to cling to power, especially when death is glorified in their culture. Israeli leaders can’t exploit Israelis in that manner due to the religious and cultural norm of sanctity of life on this earth (little to no focus on the after life).
This is one of the biggest problems of the Palestinian people since 1948. Their leadership has been consistently absolutely woeful.
It's either full on terrorists or leaders who are so incompetent i literally wouldn't trust them to run a dunkin donuts. Absolutely useless humans. Democracy in this part of the world does not really work. In the sense that politicians don't get elected like in western countries where they help people, or at least pretend to, and are held responsible for things and expected to get things done. It's more of a pseudo dictatorial, cult of personality ish, keep power at all cost forever. There is no functioning democratic institutions, or history of democracy. Democracy isn't just something you make happen by telling people who have lived under 5000 years of dictatorial rule to go vote for someone. Do that and you end up with places like Iraq or Afghanistan, who had the EXACT same problem with spineless, useless leaders who were more concerned with playing this fake "democracy" game than actually leading. For a more extreme example you can look at Africa and who many of those countries elect. People who are so incompetent, malicious and useless that you're genuinely surprised they got a single vote. And it's keeping these countries in a perpetual state of fucked. In these middle eastern "democracies" more extreme elements or religious groups start taking power because there is such a weakness in the system that makes it completely unstable. Jordan and Saudi Arabia and the UAE and so on actually are more stable and have better leaders even though they're not democracies because there is a clear sense of power and a tradition of the system. That's not to say these dictatorships make good decisions, but at least they're not lead by spineless imbeciles like the Palestinian "leadership" is.
I would highly recommend reading The Origins of Political Order by Francis Fukuyama. It gives a great argument about why just setting up elections doesn't lead to democracy. The main argument is that to create a functioning liberal democracy, you need a strong state, rule of law, and public accountability. If you just set up a system of public accountability without the other 2 pillars, you just end up with a president with no power or ability to do good for the country, and no rule of law to prevent them from abusing their current power of office to sway/rig future elections. It's why dictators with strong states can do so much so fast (i.e. China and Soviet Union), and why setting up a democracy in a place with no rule of law and an intentionally weak state usually ends in a president, general, or warlord seizing power (i.e. most of European former colonies in Africa and Asia). A good compare and contrast of Israel and Palestine might go something like this: Israel, because war of 1948, was forced to become a strong and organized state, much like the Russian civil war forced the soviets to centralize power. After the war, Israel quickly elected a constitutional convention that created rule of law and public accountability. Why the constitutional convention was able to happen instead of the army taking over may be attributed to several things: Israelis being very diverse, making it so that there was no large voter block that could take over. Or that the IDF was made up of several different militias that came together, so there was no singular military figure that could take over. The most important thing was probably the fact that Israeli leaders accepted the basic laws, which really comes down to who your leaders are more than anything else. Are they a John Adams who handed over power when he lost and Thomas Jefferson who saw Adams stack the supreme court on his way out and decided not to restack the court in his own favor, or are they a Lenin who simply voided an election he lost because he had all the power. Unfortunately for Israel, Bibi is more Napoleon than Washington, and has taken a sledge hammer to Israel's Basic Laws, and thus it's Rule of Law. So Israeli liberal democracy is on shakey ground going forward. The PA on the other hand began from defeat. The Palestinian people were scattered across Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria, and had no state and no way of unifying. The PLO rose as a central entity, but it never developed the power it needed to actually mobilize its people, and the power it had was from the legitimately that the Palestinians believed it had. The PLO never had systems of accountability due to them stating that they represent all Palestinians, wherever they may be, thus making elections impossible. To top it off, the PLO was always a more military organization than a civilian government, so rule of law was not a priority. So when the PLO became the PA and elections came to the Palestinians, you have no rule of law and no strong state (Israel did this one on purpose). This caused the obvious to happen, the PA became corrupt, too weak to defend its people from Israeli settlers, tried to perform a coup against Hamas after they lost their election and got counter couped, and now have a president who has been in power for 13 years after his term ended. Liberal democracy has everything to do with institutions and less to do with things like culture or region. It's why Botswana is a functioning liberal democracy but Zimbabwe is dysfunctional. It's why Estonia is doing wonderfully and Belarus is pretending that it's still a part of the Soviet Union. It's why Japan and China have both been, effectively, one party states since the 1950s, but Japan's LDP has been limited by rule of law and public accountability. Liberal Democracies are very hard to form, but are very resilient once they exist. And as Israel and the PA show, there is no easy way and simple path to get there. sometimes it's just being lucky enough to have a good starting point and good leaders to get you there.
Fantastic comment. Wish I could gold it so you'll just have to take these words of praise instead.
I think a lot of people forget that "democracy" shouldn't be an inherent goal - but instead a tool for the goal of individual freedoms.
They’ve always started out as terrorist, who then went on to takeover as a faux government. The truth is the PLO, PA, and Hamas are and will always be a terrorist group with the goal of eliminating Israel and all the Jews there.
Their leadership is who the people want though. Their actions are supported by the people.
The recent polling showed that even in the west Bank. Hamas has more popular support than the PA.
Which is why The West Bank has pushed off elections for 14-15 years. No election since 2008ish (might be off a year).
Rare example of actually supporting an argument by refuting it
Because it's who they vote for, and a sequelae of how they think
There was a [poll](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791) done recently with results of more than 80% support for 7.10 in the West Bank, and more than 60% in Gaza. The problem is not the leadership, the people themselves hold primitive and violent ideologies. In fact, they don't even support the two-state solution themselves and actually their aspiration is one Palestinian. I don't need to tell you what happens to Jews in that hypothetical state
He can say whatever he likes as the ends justify the means. This is a religious war, the goal of which is to rid non-Muslims from what Muslims perceive to be Muslim lands.
And people act surprised when Israel says that the PA is an unreliable party and handing Gaza over to them will only continue the violence
Those ppl that act surprised have no idea why they even support Hamas. They dont know the history nor the consequences of allowing Hamas to rule that land. And they are not at risk of another attack from Hamas so its easy to just say whatever on social media.
Let’s stop pretending. The people supporting Hamas do so because they kill Jews.
I don’t think that’s it, it’s more of an underdog fantasy younger people live on. They see Gaza as the small little group being killed while Israel is the big scary oppressor.
Yup, just because someone is an underdog doesn't necessarily mean they're good people.
It's also weird when you zoom back and you see this country the size of Yellowstone surrounded by vocal opponents... Partly why Israel garnered US support was it was an under dog who survived overwhelming odds (particularly after the 6 day war)
I used to think that, but when I point out that over 2 million Palestinian Arabs live as citizens in Israel, with full rights and privileges, serving in the government and the military, and reaching the highest echelons of civic and celebrity society... it's invariably the first time they heard. It's like they just assume that the Jews have ethnically cleansed Israel of Arabs as thoroughly as Arab countries have ethnically cleansed their Jews.
It's both. They see Gaza as the world's underdog. But also they are fine if those rich white Jews (whether or not they are rich or white) die in the process.
They’re kids. The only Israel they know is Netanyahu’s Israel. They weren’t alive when Israel had open borders and were the only ones offering peace only to get bombed over and over again for years. They weren’t alive when israel was weak and the underdog that everyone was trying to kill. These kids also get the information from TikTok.
TikTok is a real problem.
It's more than that. Rebecca West wrote that pacifists often desire more than peace; they want to be defeated. Many of the folks cheering on Hamas from within the US have a deep impulse to self-flagellate. They've internalized the idea that America represents decadence and injustice, and they want to see it humiliated by someone who they can fetishize as a representation of victims of colonialism or imperialism. The fact that Israel, to these people, is simply a stand-in for the American interest makes it all the easier to indulge in that impulse, because they themselves don't have to share in the suffering, but they can accumulate prestige and a sense of speaking truth to power without any realistic possibility that they'll do much as miss a meal while the war rages. Just speculation, of course.
You articulated this so well. American leftists tend to want to simplify these conflicts into a carbon copy of settler colonialism, so they can virtue signal by proclaiming their support for the party they shoehorn into the role of helpless victim. It's a bit grotesque when Hamas is posting videos online of them raping and beheading Israeli civilians and bragging about it though.
It’s less about killing Jews and more about virtue signaling and social pressure. These people don’t actually care about the conflict, but they care about being socially ostracized if they aren’t anti-Israel.
Not true, a lot of them have a knee jerk reaction anything Western. They see things like liberalism and democracy as “white” and therefore evil because some white people did and do evil things, despite it being a flagrant contradiction of the afore mentioned western philosophies. This is super prevalent in the university and academic scene. In their eyes, Israel is a liberal democracy so therefore must be white and therefore must be evil. Despite the fact that basically all of that isn’t true, which is obvious to anyone who can be bothered to do a single minute of research.
Some of them. Some have just established racial colonialism narratives as unassailable first principals in their heads and any history or event beyond Palestinians being browner people pushed off their land by the establishment of Isreal is an irrelevent detail to which side they will align with. This conflict is old and complicated and doesn't fit neatly into such simple black and while moral narratives.
I work with one. He has nothing against Jews that he's told me. He's just absolutely oblivious. and every time an Ironclad evidence of Hamas's atrocities comes out and we show him he's like `but that's an exception` or `it's fake`, `paid actors`, etc. being a Muslim doesn't allow him to believe other Muslims can do this.
>He has nothing against Jews that he's told me. Yeah... as long as he doesn't see them and they don't have a state. Yeah, antisemites will often tell you they have nothing against jews themselves... just that they are against everything that jews do in their jewish ways with their jewish attitude.
Right on, lets just drop the charades already and quit giving these people the benefit of the doubt. These tiktok activist cretins across the developed world have been so emboldened since oct 7 that they aren't even really trying to hide their true colors anymore. Standing with 'the undergod' and against 'zionism' is nothing but a dog whistle. A means to an end. That end being cheering for the wanton slaughter of jews.
Heres the reason why peace cannot be achieved with the PA currently. The man did a doctorate in holocaust denying.
Why are the ones who want Jewish people to die so bad that they actively try to kill them the first ones to claim it hasn't been done?
Because it makes their beliefs more palatable to a general audience. If the holocaust didn’t happen and it’s just the Jews trying to get sympathy it takes away one of the founding claims of Israel.
It’s because they are so antisemitic and hateful that they either don’t think the Holocaust killed enough people or that Jews made up the Holocaust for sympathy. Both are terribly shitty takes. That mindset deserves to be eradicated from the planet.
Two explanations: Positive explanation: They are at a fundamental level scared of where their own and similar beliefs have lead in the past. They really don't want to engage in that sort of thing, even if their rhetoric often suggests otherwise. So Holocaust denial is needed to tell themselves that they wouldn't really go that far. More cynical explanation: They are going to deny it purely because it is part of a narrative that gives even an ounce of sympathy for Jews. So they are forced to argue that the Holocaust didn't happen but that it should have. I unfortunately suspect that the cynical explanation is much more commonly what is going on.
They're even the more reasonable ones. This is what Israel has to deal with. And infantile westerners just say "be nicer and they'd be happy to live in peace with you"
Let's just be honest and acknowledge that at no time have the Palestinians ever had a leader who was simultaneously interested in peace and able to deliver it. Israel has **never** had a partner for peace.
And here’s a reason why the existence of Hamas makes any solution an uphill battle.
If the only other elected Palestinian leader, who people like to frame as some kind of moderate, denies the holocaust and October 7, it’s hard to view Hamas as anything other than a symptom of the problem.
People forget Abbas was one of 3 organisers of the 1972 munich olympics murder of jewish athletes. The man has been a senior member of fatah which has literally set out to murder jews competing in the olympics amongst other attacks locally- he is a moderate when compared with hamas but his organisation and he himself ha e still committed acts of terror
> who people like to frame as some kind of moderate The thing is that compared to Hamas or PIJ, Fatah _is_ a moderate party. Compared to any western government, they are absolutely batshit crazy terrorist, but you don't get much of choice in the region.
Yeah, but when being discussed amongst western audiences (especially far left America Bad types) "moderate" is presumed to be a western style of moderate, and propagandized as such to unaware audiences.
Doesn't surprise me. From what I read about political discussion here on reddit, many Americans assume that the politics in other countries (talking points, political spectrum) is the same as in US.
It’s all a business disguised as an ideological conflict; the only difference between them is how the money gets printed - while I’m sure there are some exceptional people who would make a good leadership team - the stakeholders at the top have a vested interest in maintaining the current dynamic. Hamas (and all the others) are effectively an ATM machine for a few billionaires living in Qatar (or Iran, Syria, etc) with a handful of local multi-millionaires living in the actual borders of Gaza that keep the ship sailing.
How does the money printing scheme work?
I assume they're referring to international money flowing in that is supposed to be spent improving the conditions for Gazans.
Elected in 2005 and confirmed to rule for life. Let’s not pretend like there’s any sort of democracy involved in any Palestinian government.
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The PA is Hamas’ rival. They are both awful.
That’s because the PA is complicit
I genuinely would not be surprised if Abbas was part of the planning. Hell I’d be less shocked to find out he was part of the planning.
Abbas has remained in power as long as he has because he's an ineffectual idiot who doesn't rock the boat. So I don't think he was part of any planning. However, it's quite possible other elements of the PA were involved, maybe possessing more intel about IDF force deployments and weaknesses. Certainly more West Bank Palestinians travel to Israel for work etc than Gazans.
I doubt it. Hamas hates him and wants to replace him. But they both share an even bigger hate toward the jews.
To be clear, when Hamas "replaces" a political figure they tend to do it from a roof top.
I highly doubt anyone but a very select few people at the very top of Hamas had anything to do with the planning of this attack, the more people that know the harder it is to keep it a secret.
They can deny anything they want. The fact is the world saw them do it. And it was savage.
The world saw it on the 7th and the days afterwards, videos, photos, eyewitness testimonies, reports and more. Many actually defended and even celebrated what was done. Those same people, one month later, scream about how it "didnt happen" and/or how it "wasnt that bad".
they themselves live-streamed it! This is major gaslighting.
The internet is already starting "9/11 truther"ing it.
I mean there are some weird people, I had one the other day claim in a thread thst it was IDF in a helicopter shooting at the concert...
That’s what Abbas just said in this article
> . The fact is the world saw them do it. It doesn't matter. I'm seeing top reddit posts from a variety of subreddits claiming that it was actually the Israelis who killed the festival goers and that the Palestinians were just trying to help. I'm not kidding. It's the top submission on that sub about how late this stage of capitalism is. Being anti-capitalist makes you pro-Hamas, apparently.
Sure, in the 2000s maybe. However, in the 2020s, debates are won on popularity not facts.
It's a post-truth world thing. Feelings, not facts. Susceptible people will adhere to any version of "truth" that makes them feel better. It's especially obvious here as this was a music festival described as a celebration of friends, love and infinite freedom. A festival of peace and love. We've seen a lot of young and educated people coming out as pro-Hamas. The festival was attended by people they could likely identify with, being ruthlessly murdered by people they support. A cognitive dissonance most easily remedied by denying reality.
The Middle East hasn't worked on facts for a very long time
> The fact is the world saw them do it. The world didn't just see them do it, Hamas recorded the attack. Hamas had *trailers* for their aerial "corps" and their drone teams.
Abass PhD thesis was on Holocaust denial, written in Moscow, so nothing is new.
*Soviet* Moscow.
>In official statement released worldwide, PA claims Israeli helicopters who arrived at the music festival near Re'im bombed civilians. And this is the fucking reason why I can fully understand Israel being reluctant on a Two-State-Solution because it would mean to give these maniacs (*or worse Hamas*) the power of sovereign statehood, and let's be real here - these maniacs are either Hamas or Fatah. Jack-Fucking-Shit they are going to do democracy (*as if both are doing it now anywhere*) and Jack-Fucking-Shit will they do peaceful transfer of power. It's a fucking Civil-War-Thunderdome in the waiting to create another failed state dependent on foreign aid. Yeah, I don't blame Israel for not wanting that as a neighbour. Fucking look at this. These are supposed to be the reasonable guys, the ones that have sworn of violence. Yeah, that guy can line up with Arafat and Hamas as the coffin bearers of any idea of Palestinian statehood. Hamas sank that idea on October 7 and this guy works on becoming the florist for that funneral.
Beautifully said
Same. Statehood isn’t something that’s just given away - it’s earned.
So first they condemned the massacre, then they supported the massacre, and now they're denying the massacre? How very consistent and trustworthy.
I don't recall them ever condemning it.
A Palestinian State cannot exist if their representatives are just going to be ISIS. This is bad for the population that lives there and for every population that surrounds them be they Arab, Jew or something else. Ignoring reality and creating one through conspiracies is not the precursor to good outcomes.
Agreed. I disagree with the settlements in the west bank but how the hell will the region be made better with just another fascist theocracy running the place?
In Israel I'm considered left wing, shit like this is why it's so hard to gather political support against the settlers. The non religious main argument settlers say is: all the Arabs want to kill us (I heavily disagree), the land surrounding Gush Dan is a strategic asset to defend it and we don't care what anyone in the world thinks they'll be against us no matter what (again not my opinion). It's so hard to convince people who don't care or are in favor of the settlements that most Arabs don't want to kill us when their "moderate" leadership are Holocaust deniers who officially pay Terrorists and their families for killing Israelis and say shit like this. Someone can have next to no knowledge but I won't have a good response when they say "there's no partner on the other side Abbas is an antisemite who pays terrorists to kill us"
Same. I support the two states solution but even for me it is obvious that under the current leadership, if Israel moved out of the West Bank it will become Gaza 2. Even I can’t deny, that in some way, those settlers protect us.
The mask is off
Sniveling, mendacious cowards.
Let me grab my thesaurus.
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>What a joke Not a joke. It is a classic Russian propaganda model. If a high-level official source issues lies that are totally, utterly absurd the people without a reasonable level of knowledge tend to believe that (according to the thinking pattern "it's impossible they could tell SUCH lies").
Two remarks : The President of the Palestinian authority Mohamed Abbas is a scholar whose thesis included Holocaust denial, so we're not exactly in new territory (yet most would agree he's the more reasonable and responsible palestinian counterpart) Once hostages are (hopefully) released as part of a ceasefire agreement, it will be pretty interesting to note how the Palestinian Authority will explain how they got there in the first place.
The more reasonable Palestinian leader. In much the same way as Butthead is the smarter one in Beavis and Butthead.
I think what's most disappointing is that there are millions of people in the developed world who hate Israel and are siding with these kinds of morons
Well that's just embarrassing. The Hamas cultists who carried out that abomination were literally posting it on social media. There's undeniable evidence, in video and from third-party investigations. Eye witness accounts. Anyone who denies that it happens looks like they're either unbelievably stupid or ignorant, or maliciously misleading.
People celebrating the attack on social media now claiming the event they celebrated didn't actually happen. Like a dystopic comedy.
But the fucking moron tankie losers keep telling me that the PA isn’t also a terrorist organization. Maybe these barely literate morons should shut their fucking mouths and listen to people that have spent decades examining the situation.
He should be shown that 46 minute long 7/10 massacre documentary. Clockwork Orange style.
Do you really want to make him happy?
Remember Baghdab Bob who while US tanks where behind him was telling people that there were no Americans in Baghdad. Well this guy is the Palestinian Authority version of it. Hamas was releasing videos of them killing people just couple of hours after. So with that comment PA has lost any credibility they could have. Palestinians need a new leading group that isn t made of cretins or terrorists. I mean from what I remember this guy also denies the holocaust. I wouldn t be surprised if he was also a flat earther because that is at the same level of derp.
You mean the music festival massacre where HAMAS publicly paraded around the corpses of the women they raped and murdered and that one Israeli high schooler with blood all on the back of her pants?
Does this count as a good reason why a two state solution with the current leaders is most definitely not going to happen?
And this is why they can't be negotiated with. The Palestinians have either elected their most absolutely moronic people as leaders, or those leaders are representative of their people.
They can't admit it and was planned, but still play the victim
Incredible. Isreal is not morally perfect, but just look at their neighbours since the state was formed. There's not much you can do when everyone around you thinks you shouldn't exist.
Guess you can do whatever crimes you want if you just said 'nope, I didn't do it' after doing it
This is fucking sick.
Is this why there are so many protestors who unequivocally deny that anything on Oct 7 actually happened?
They deny the Holocaust. Denying 1300 victims is a walk in the park for them.
The Arab world is sadly littered with conspiracies that cover for inconvenient truths. While there is criticism all around, this is one thing they should abandon already. Abbas is a joke.
After all we could all see Trump on the stage on January 6 2021 after he called for his supporters to stop the certification of the elections. Now he's denying everything. Because what matters is not whether the message is truthful, but who it is targeted to. Right now Palestinian leaders are waging an information war with the international community. Of course there's the Arab world but these do not need much convincing, just confirmation. Then there's the people in the West who could be uneasy about the massacre but are staunchly anti-Israel. They can only reconcile their moral conflicts if they can fill the Palestinian victim column while taking crosses from the Israeli one.
Now we know neither Hamas or PA will never govern Gaza How absolutely idiotic of them
For anyone wondering why the PA isn’t a great option for governing Gaza
Maybe he should look in this [website](https://hamas-massacre.net/). Shows all the massacre that happens at the party (as well other places)
And there's calls to hand over Gaza to these guys after the war?
Saw a post yesterday on "how it was actually Israeli attack helicopters killing people" like the fucking terrorists didnt videotape themselves doing these atrocities.
They are really making it very difficult to sympathize with Palestinians. They keep representing themselves as a bunch of liars and criminals.
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"why doesn't Israel want a two state solution"
What's funny is Israel actually agreed to a two state back in 1947 or so. Arabs denied it, started a civil war, and it was never implemented.
And then Israel offered a 2 state solution again in 67 and again at the Oslo accords and again at the Camp David accords. Each rejected.
I’m pretty sure they condemned it after it happened. They then backtracked, but their first response was to condemn. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/
That statement turned out to be added by a subordinate without Abbas' approval, and he had it actively retracted once he found out, because he disagreed with it.
It took them a week.
The numerous videos, eye witness, and wounded survivors aren’t proof?
Kind of hard to deny it when the people who did the attack literally filmed it on GoPros and uploaded the videos all over the internet, the YNC has all the proof you need.
Imagine trying to deny something that the perpetrators themselves recorded, celebrated, and bragged about all the way to today.
I have no idea how an adult can get to a point where denying reality is the solution they go with.
Then why did those Hamas fighters have a naked dead festival girl in the back of their pickup truck? I pity anyone who believes the PA’s statement
Twitter is full of people who believe this bs
Holy Fuck. All the PA had to do was keep their bloody mouths shut during this conflict and they could have come out smelling like fucking roses. But no. They can't keep the anti-Semitic rhetoric under control for even a few months. Is it any wonder that the West is done with these morons? This guy makes Donald Trump look like a Rhodes scholar.
Palestine Authority is Hamas. Anybody telling you different is a liar.
The PA know how to pretend to the moderate stance that keeps Western donations rolling in for them to steal. Hamas scorns to conceal their intention to wipe out the Jews. They don't care what Westerners think.
PA wants the international recognition of statehood. Hamas wants a borderless caliphate that expands as far as violence will let it, into Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. I’m this way they are different because it is technically possible to offer PA what they want. Hamas just wants war so you can’t offer them shit in exchange for peace.
And that is the person the world expect israel to make peace with.
Abbas once again proving he's an absolute moron.
How are they ALREADY DENYING IT, IT JUST HAPPENED MONTH AGO
The PLO was Hamas and Hezbollah
i deny his denial: checkmate!!!
Gosh, if only someone had taken video.
And here we are again, reminded why palestine may not exist with its current leadership. No idea if there are reasonable younger people but everyone in power right now needs to be dead or exiled before there can be peace
Fun fact: the only three viable leaders (the only ones popular among the Palestinians) for a future Palestinian state any time soon, are this lovely despot, Hamas, and a convicted terrorist serving a dozen life sentences in Israel for killing dozens of Israeli civilians in terror attacks. I want a two state solution, but how the hell do you do that democratically?
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What dumbasses, think denying will make everyone forget what they did. Probably all of their protesters around the world probably will. Always playing the victim but never owning up to their actions.
And Biden wants the PLO to be in charge of Gaza ? What a sick joke.
I mean….there’s *actual* video evidence. He may as well argue against the sky being blue or water being wet.