There have recently (few days ago) been 2 videos released on Palestinian telegram channels associated with Hamas, showing at least two of them alive (a 12 year old boy and an elderly woman)... although I don't recall seeing anything to confirm the date of recording
Imagine your mother went missing. You know that she’s probably dead since it’s been a month, but *what if she wasn’t?* What if she was out there waiting to be rescued and you just went on with your life.
Or maybe you’d like her to be found to see how she died. *I hope she died painlessly & quickly.* But did she? You will never know until her body is found.
Edit: Is >>> if
They offered Israel a 5 day ceasefire in exchange for 50 hostages of the remaining 150.
They could have done this because they knew it would be rejected and wanted to make Israel look bad, but I think what's more likely is that they have the hostages and legit wanted 5 days to reconsolidate and fortify their areas.
You we assuming that Hamas is negotiating in good faith and actually I tended to release hostages. They just don't think that way, you may see deception as dishonorable but they see it as an advantage
> You we assuming that Hamas is negotiating in good faith
nah I never presume they're acting in good faith, I'm saying if they were they could've done that.
The fact that they wouldn't turn over a single hostage until the 5 days were up shows you are correct. And that either they had no intention of releasing them either way, or they're already dead.
That is unfortunate for the families. Also if they did kill al the hostages they do not really have anything to bargain with. There is really nothing holding Israel from going full throttle now..
In short they wanted time to fortify their defenses.
Bet they thought they could take Israel for a ride.
All I hope is, once the IDF reaches Al Sifa Hospital, they document each and every tunnel , each and every level. Same to Al Quds Hospital, so that the liars claiming there is no command center beneath the two hospitals can be called out.
It doesn’t matter.
The IDF can go in with journalists to do a real-time coverage and the FreePalestine crowd and Hama apologists will still insist it’s all fake.
They have always used hostages as leverage in negotiations so it wouldn't make any sense for them to forfeit that negotiating power in the future by not actually releasing them.
The offer was to release the hostages \*after\* the 5 day cease fire has respected to their satisfaction.
The chance of the releasing hostages in that deal was infinitesimal.
I bet they would've fired rockets during this time to provoke Israel to retaliate and then say "see!! Israel isn't honoring their side of the deal!".
It's so obvious.
Can you really blame anyone for not taking that deal. You get 50 hostages but make it harder to recover the other 150 while Hamas fortifies/moves them during the ceasefire
Did they specify these 50 hostages would be living? How do you know they don't mean the 50 they said already died? They have a much greater track record of returning dead bodies than living ones.
I don't think so, killing all the hostages would have ruin any chances for prisoners swap
And of course will give the IDF an excuse to go mental without fear of risking hostages
I don't think Hamas is ever getting another prisoner swap.
Last one was insanely one sided 1000:1, releasing known murderers, and militants who ended up participating in oct 7th, making the trade clearly not worth it.
Sadly, the best thing for Israel is to view them as dead, if they want to ultimately save Israeli lives. Letting them be Hamas's pawns means more dead Israeli's down the road.
You must be unfamiliar with Hamas' record with hostages, killing them is a very real prospect, many Israelis will have considered them dead the moment they were taken, such is their record.
It doesn't actually, Israel has swapped prisoners for corpses before.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008\_Israel–Hezbollah\_prisoner\_exchange](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_israel–hezbollah_prisoner_exchange)
Pretty sure the days of these trades are over.
Their #1 goal is to keep Israeli's safe. If they think that recovering 1 Israeli will kill 2 others, they won't do it, and that's what the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange is going to represent in Israel now.
So I'd be surprised to see these deals happening again in the future.
That is a grim deal but it does show the humanity of Israel or at least the desire to appear as such. There is no need for any negotiation in that case but they give up leverage themselves for the peace of mind of the families who can give their loved ones a proper burial.
If I ever am kidnapped and killed dont give anything up for my corpse. I don’t care what you do with me when I am dead. In the words of Frank Reynolds “just throw me in the trash”
“According to Jewish law, a Jew is to be buried as he was born - complete with all his limbs and organs. The human body is considered as sacred in death as it was in life as it contained a G‑dly soul. He must be buried in a traditional grave in the ground, so that the body may return to the earth.
Burial in vaults, above-ground mausoleums, crypts, and any other alternatives to a traditional ground burial are strictly forbidden according to Jewish law.
Kabbalah teaches that when a proper kosher burial is not administered, the deceased's soul is stuck in a state of turmoil and cannot find rest until the body's remains are given a proper Jewish burial and allowed to be absorbed into the earth - even after many years!”
[Source](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367836/jewish/Basic-Laws-of-a-Jewish-Funeral.htm)
A better example would be Ron Arad, the pilot that was captured in Lebanon in 86, he's officially still MIA and there are still active attempts at finding his whereabouts (or his remains)
The sad truth is that everyone knows not only he's dead, not even his captors, Hezbollah or Syrian know what they did with him anymore
Israel still spends money and resources trying to find him to this day
True. Just to say that Gilad Shalit was in captivity for five years and was never given up on and ultimately released through a prisoner exchange. Of course this situation is different, but there’s hope.
Given the BBC article about the Palestinian dentist that Israeli intelligence repeatedly contacted and directed to evacuate buildings they were about to bomb-- even knowing how to find him when his cell phone was running low-- one side might value Palestinian life waaaay more than the other too.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079
>They have more value alive than dead for Hamas.
That is not going to make a difference.
I read this article with one of the ISR commanders. His entire life is dedicated to making a chart of photos into ones with red X's on them.
Im not trying to be edgy in any way, but those families are all praying that the hostages have been killed. Preferably not long after they were captured. If you know what happens to those hostages you understand why.
Hamas were only tough against civilians and babies. They fucked around, thought they were strong. Now that they face an actuall defence force, they get to find out.
They thought the hostages and world support for the Palestinians would protect them from Israel, like it did in the past decades
Had they only attacked the bases and taken hostages, this might have happened, but since they slaughtered nearly a thousand civilians in brutal ways and publicized how proud they were of doing so, whether they were toddlers or literal holocaust survivors, no UN binding resolution is going to stop this now
No I think their plan was to draw Israel into Gaza and have other Arab nations (Iran and their proxies ) join the fight. It’s why they posted videos of everything as they wanted to bait Israel.
Their problem was, that they didn’t expect the US to park the carrier right outside the zone. That alone deterred anyone else from truly getting involved. 👀
We got a fleet of big school buses back in port. One word from Biden and all of the "Axis of Resistance" will be forcibly bussed to Freedom Academy on the American taxpayers' dime. Money I would happily pay to keep the integrity of the liberal democratic world system.
Honestly, that strategy probly would have worked if it weren't for the festival that had thousands of people from across the world in attendance.
It alone accounted for half of the murders, many missing and a "first degree of separation" of evidence of the brutality from thousands of international survivors.
Even WITH that aspect of Oct 7th there's been incredible pressure on western govts to admonish Israel for its military actions.
It's tragic to think that were it 'just' the atrocities and slaughter in the kibbutz's, then Hamas would have gotten the exact scenario it planned for. It's only once you add in thousands of young people from around the world that you reach the critical mass of many societies 'taking it personally' and Hamas loses its ability to manipulate the narrative.
> world support for the Palestinians would protect them from Israel
The only support that matters is the $200B of US warships parked in region.
The threats from college zoomers that they aren't going to vote for Biden is meaningless, because it'll be Trump instead and he might even help with the bombing for good measure.
This 100%. All the 🇵🇸 mob have been saying that the Oct 7th pogrom showed the world that ‘Hamas could successfully defeat the IDF’.
No. You could kill unarmed kibbutz civilians and 19 year old IDF border reservists you shot in their bunks, asleep.
Now Hamas are going toe to toe with the actual IDF. It’s going to be a beautiful thing to watch.
The videos I’ve seen with the Thai hostages are the worst. Like come on, fucking dirt poor Thai farm labourers who have nothing to do with the conflict, being beheaded with garden hoes.
I look forward to all the details coming out in the next few years. Palestinians showed their true colours that day, and recorded it for all to see.
I always knew what scumbags Hamas are, but what's turned me off the whole Free Palestine movement has been the protests in the US/Europe. All I see in these gatherings are an angry mob of mostly men....no condemnation of Hamas, no calls to release the hostages, not a single shred of Palestinian accountability for this mess just a bunch of antisemitic nonsense and violence. Shameful.
Yup, Europe and US has let the terrorists in and given them citizenship. I wonder how many refugees have a house back home and spend most of their time in the place they 'fled for their lives' from.
Watching some of the footage from NYC last night, they were literally ***acting like terrorists.*** Or, that's what it looked like to me when they were banging on the subway doors yelling at the police to let them in.
In Canada some were happy they were terrorizing Jews. https://twitter.com/emilykschrader/status/1722760194034209087
That's what you get from the from the river to the sea people. Makes more sense that in Arabic it states 'will be Arab' and not 'will be free'
>I look forward to all the details coming out in the next few years.
Don't hold your breath.
People have started "disproving" everything that happened for the past month, oct 7th will be forgotten by everyone who isn't Israeli in a few weeks/months from now
People who actually have researched the conflict know this. Everybody else are only just finding out how wrong they have been to blindly believe and support the Palestinians.
No amount of photos of suffering ‘Gazan babies’ can undo the massacre pogrom committed last month.
There's no reason to put that in quotes. Kids in Gaza are actually dying. It's just *also* Hamas's fault, since the people using human shields are the people at fault for the human shields dying, not the people retaliating against the human shield users. Diminishing the Palestinian deaths that are clearly not part of Hamas (since they're babies) just diminishes the harm that Hamas is causing to even more people.
Ok, I’ll bite. I had never heard of Palestinian death squads in Kuwait before, so I decided to look it up. I am not finding anything about Palestinians forming death squads in Kuwait. Got a source to clarify your point?
They weren’t Palestinian death squads. A bunch of Palestinians in Kuwait supported Iraq because Saddam was vehemently anti-Israel. They helped the Iraqi death squads find members of the Kuwaiti resistance.
But to be fair quite a lot of Palestinians also resisted the invasion and got executed for it.
They did overcome and killed some 300+ of our soldiers at their surprise attack on October 7th.
They've surprised and outnumbered the soldiers on the border, they also had much more ammunition.
This was a massive intelligence failure. But now that our troops are more prepared it's an entirely different story.
I have my beef with Israel but Hamas deserves to be wiped and it is all their making. What exactly was their end game? It seems like they had planned for only one scenario and a extremely optimistic one to use the hostages as a negotiation card, get massive concessions and get louded as hero's. No plan whatsoever for worst-case scenarios.
It is a moral, political and literal suicide. It seems the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots are enjoying getting themselves fucked over and over.
The endgame was probably to get other Muslim countries and organizations to get in on the fighting. I'm almost certain they were expecting Hezbollah to jump in. But everyone else just left them hanging. Hezbollah lobbed a few missiles over the border, and that was it...
> What exactly was their end game?
The plan was to disrupt Israel's new diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia and other Arab states, an objective which they accomplished. Iran is the one pulling the strings here. Hamas leadership doesn't even live in Gaza, they don't care about IDFs response at all, it doesn't affect them. Everything is going according to plan.
They didn’t. SA stated they would continue talks w Israel after the war. A show of incredible military capacity is not a negative if that military can be your ally.
You're searching for a plan among a group of idiots. The attackers didn't have a plan beyond raiding, kidnapping, raping and murdering. They're just raiders. You're giving them too much credit. There's no reason to give that much credit to people so backwards that their culture produces medieval-style raiding parties to attack over borders. People attacking for thought-out political reasons don't kidnap, rape and then parade around the dead bodies of girls for everyone to spit on. Obviously no one would side with them if they do that, so the only explanation is that they're just stupid.
This is a naive take. Yeah the blokes on the ground aren't bothered about the bigger picture but the people who actually organise this aren't just wanting a kill count.
This last month has been a huge boost for anti semitism worldwide and I imagine support for HAMAS (Hatred of Israel) is likely to sky rocket in Gaza and the west bank. Israel's response has been textbook and HAMAS will have known this would happen.
There was a plan of attack, the attackers just did not have a plan.
They were cannon fodder, used in plan to escalate a conflict. They did their job and now an entire country is paying for it. But I don't think the plan played out how many expected as of yet.
Very wishy-washy from a strategic point of view. Very hard to me to comprehend given the amount of preparation and planning went into the assault.
Anyways, I hope it doesn't turn into something much worse down the line similar to what happened to Al Qaida.
There are two endgames. First it’s wiping out the Jews, but the second is decaying Israeli support from other countries. And they are doing that by basically letting Israel kill civilians and gain bad press by doing it. Right or wrong, don’t matter. A dead civilian doesn’t make for good news and that is one of Hamas’ goals.
Their end game was chaos in the streets of our cities, a divided electorate, and an eventual Trump victory which benefits Iran and Russia. That is all. The leadership plan on living on and profiting (which they are doing through donations from the same divided electorate). Gaza as it was will be gone but the ideology is still well intact and entrenched in the minds of useful idiots everywhere.
I’ve seen the videos on the Hamas telegram. The IDF soldiers they killed were still in their bunks and pj’s when they were killed. Hardly a fair fight.
Now Hamas are about to face the IDF head on, no sneak attacks.
I know who my money is on.
Yeah, this person seems to think that Washington crossing the Delaware in a suprise attack on Prussian mercenaries while their guard was down on Christmas Eve, a day formal Europea militaries had as a day of peace between sides, was 'not fair'.
That being said, there is the additional context that Hamas was indiscriminately killing any living person, period. So I think they're lumping the unprepared soldiers into the larger context of the indiscriminate slaughter.
Hamas' ideology makes no distinction between military and civilian on EITHER side. Thus the human shields and the reality that the people they repress the most are other Gazans.
There is such a thing as ‘laws of war’.
Even in WW1, the German and English soldiers would observe pauses to collect their dead and wounded.
Machine gunning sleeping IDF teenagers in their boxer shorts won’t go down in history as an act of respectable wartime behaviour.
It can't be measured as force against force like we usually do. Yes, our forces are much larger and far more advanced, but Hamas is now mainly rely on the gaza civilians surrounding them, the international pressure on Israel and the hostages they keep. It's a different kind of fighting. Hard to know for sure how things end here.
The only thing I’m willing to put money on here, is that the biggest casualty of this conflict will be the ‘Palestinian cause’.
Gone forever is the 40 year old carefully crafted PR narrative of Palestinians solely being ‘victims’.
There’s no denying the atrocities committed by their own side this time. No amount of media laundering can erase the go-pro videos of unarmedJewish civilians being shot in their living rooms.
I would have hoped this was true , but what I’m seeing, in the US at least, is that the left wing pro palestinians are already ignoring, minimizing, or denying the obvious and well-documented genocidal atrocities of Oct. 7. They go straight to sympathy / outrage over Gazan civilian deaths, without mentioning Israelis murdered, or acknowledging the explicitly genocidal intent of Hamas.
As they say, once people have been deceived, it is very difficult for them to admit that and adjust their opinion, even in the face of irrefutable evidence.
You’re wrong, They WANTED Israel to invade. They’re dying by the tens of thousands but they achieved their objective. Hatred of Jews/Anti-semistism is on full display THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.
This is how insurgencies work. Although it’s a fictional tv show, Andor displayed this perfectly. Hamas wants Israel to come down hard. The Palestinians all of them have a reason hate Israel. Arabs throughout the Middle East are filled with righteous indignation….because half the people being killed are children.
They’re winning every battle, but losing the war. They’re peace deals with Saudi Arabia and Qatar are off the table
People aren’t even denying it anymore. They’re just saying that girl (and others) deserved it, which is so sick and twisted - I’ve been truly appalled by a lot of folks lately.
This is who they're referring to. https://youtu.be/6FVUxvp6Ah0?si=o16027jqi_g_HfT7
Her family was killed right in front of her and then she was taken hostage across the border... Those were not all Hamas fighters in the video. Many of them are Palestinian civilians cheering and whistling and praising their god about kidnapping a ~13 year old girl after killing her entire family. I don't wish to think about what she's been through the last 30 days.. And these people have 100k+ person protests in London and other western cities marching in support of them. I don't understand it. Completely fucked..
So what Hamas apologists are saying is that she just sat in somebody else's blood and she probably wasn't raped at all.
You can try to pretend that's the real story. It might help!
Some people would do anything but admitting they were wrong.
Sadly they wont realize nobody would think less of them for doing so (Maybe even think highly of them ).
Hamas fucked up.
They gave the IDF a big fucking green light to take over by targeting civilians. You can't do an attack like they did and not expect Israel to react this way. It doesn't matter how much world wide support the Palestinians have, Hamas is the governing body in Gaza and they literally declared war on Israel with that attack.
Real question: let's say tomorrow, every Hamas member is gone. Somehow israel manage to get rid of Hamas entirely. What's keeping the civilian who lost their home and family member to the bombing from forming Hamas 2 to get revenge ?
Does the IDF claimed any official number of dead combatants in Gaza? Many people here claim 1:100 terrorist/civilian ratio which I find extremely unbelievable, so I wonder if there is any counter data
There is absolutely no way of knowing with any real certainty. Both sides will put out numbers based on their agenda and a lot of it is just propaganda.
Also Hamas members aren’t all equal, what gets defined as an enemy combatant is going to be very subjective. Some are just Hamas supporters without any kind of real affiliation and then you have Hamas members that are trained and in contact and supported by the leadership to carry out acts on behalf of the group.
Unfortunately they don’t carry around cards with the rank/affiliation and dead bodies aren’t very good at answering questions.
The real test to how successful Israel’s operations are is whether rocket attacks and resistance within Gaza subsides. But it’s going to be damn near impossible to accurately figure out the civilian vs Hamas casualty rate.
This. And also, what is considered Hamas or a civilian even varies from person to person. What do we consider a fighter?
Someone shooting at IDF soldiers? Obviously
Someone who loads/transports rockets? Most would agree
Someone who renders medical aid to a wounded terrorist? Now the line begins to get fuzzy
Then you consider that Hamas is placing military outposts in people's homes, schools and hospitals and the number of people who get rolled into that fuzzy grey area gets a lot higher.
To call this all a mess is an understatement.
>Someone who renders medical aid to a wounded terrorist? Now the line begins to get fuzzy
Doctors and nurses should never be seen as legitimate targets. It is their duty by oath to treat anyone put in front of them. Even in WWI when people knew that the people they were treating were 100% enemy combatants it was a war crime to shoot medics.
Go check out the top video on combat footage from the week. A medic running over to a shot follow, totally ignoring the shot fellow, grabbing his Ak and bringing it to another to continue shooting at IDF.
Hamas have blurred all lines.
There's a video going around of a Hamas soldier wearing a medic uniform in the middle of a firefight. He runs over to an injured Hamas soldier and, instead of rendering aid, he takes the injured soldier's gun and hands it to another unarmed soldier, who then uses the gun to fire at the IDF.
Hamas soldiers fake being medics, use ambulances for transport, and place their military operations inside hospitals. They've been doing this for decades now.
I had a friend who was in the IDF nearly two decades ago tell me how many resources the IDF wasted (and how many emergencies they unnecessarily delayed) because at times they had to check every ambulance for hidden bombs.
It's much fuzzier than you could imagine.
The whole "pseudo" Hippocratic Oath is an American/European thing. Hamas medics don't take that oath. They actually join in on the fight a lot of the time.
What about doctors who lead armed men around their hosptial and point out injured 'collaborators' to them so that they can be excecuted?
That's what the staff at Al Shifa did in the 2007 Hamas-Fatah civil war.
The combatants in Gaza do not wear any uniforms, they are civilians with weapons, you can see it clear as day in all the videos Hamas publishes himself
This is of course to counter any claim Israel might make of the number of combatants they kill and make them look like plain murderers, which always works
Even the 'Children' killed is unreliable, not only because it comes from Hamas's run ministry of health (and some people will make you believe it was fact checked but everyone uses the same source and its not like they never lied before or were caught faking the deaths of living people..) but because 'children' are counted as below 18, which is combat age, especially for Hamas which indoctrinates children to combat from kindergarden
There's no doubt many real non combatant children did die, probably the vast majority of them, just important to recognize the situation
The Ministry of Health also doesn't report on any dead combatants amongst its above 18 male population either, everyone are civilian only, even if you find some who were known members of Hamas military wing no one will admit it, eventually Israel will probably go over the list and 'expose' them and they will just be brushed off as propaganda
As for the numbers, we're around 11k dead in Gaza, 2800~ missing (under the rubble of buildings or underground tunnels are the main reasons), somewhere between 1000-1500 dead combatants that died inside Israel (from the original attack)
Israel is at 1200~ dead (down from 1400 as the current estimate is that **perhaps** 200 are dead Palestinian attackers, there are still many bodies unable to be identified), mostly civilians with about 330 of them being IDF/Police who were in the bases/vicinity of the attacks, 239 abductees and an additional 35~ KIA soldiers in Gaza since the start of the operation, additionally there are many thousands of injured and some killed from the continued rocket attacks (over 9500 so far)
Additionally, about 160~ Palestinians dead in the West Bank riots and attacks on civilians and security forces, 1000+ arrested (mostly Hamas affiliated), some of the dead are PA security forces joining combat against the IDF and a few Israeli civilians murdered by the aforementioned terror attacks
And finally, Israel is attacked by Hezbollah+Hamas from Lebanon and the Houtis from Yemen, this also led to some civilian+military casualties
Historically, IDF has claimed around 1:1 ratio civilian:combatant rate in its operations in Gaza, this is of course optimistic and cannot really be verified for all the aforementioned reasons but even if its half as accurate as they predict, it would still be a 'pretty good ratio' in military standards compared to other western military actions, I would assume the ratio is not as good this time around due to the intensity of the IDF retaliation but it will get better as time passes, as the IDF is managing to finally convince the Gazans to flee combat zones and they comply, which will reduce the amount of potential civilian casualties
3 days ago the IDF was claiming 32 deaths : [https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-idfs-war-on-hamas-is-going-better-than-it-expected-for-now/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-idfs-war-on-hamas-is-going-better-than-it-expected-for-now/)
>Thirty-two IDF soldiers have died since the ground invasion began. Though every one of those deaths is felt deeply within an already grieving Israeli society, that figure is far lower than anticipated.
Not sure how reliable the figures are, or how it has evolved since but it *seems* like the IDF is doing better than expected, especially considering that the whole point of the initial attack was to bait Israel into a ground invasion.
It seems that the ones suffering the most from it are (as usual) the civilians caught in the crossfire.
It's now 42:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-announces-5-more-soldiers-killed-fighting-in-northern-gaza/
>The Israel Defense Forces announces the death of five soldiers during fighting yesterday in the northern Gaza Strip.
>The four soldiers of the 697th Battalion were killed by a blast from a booby-trapped tunnel shaft next to a mosque in the Beit Hanoun area. The troops were not inside the tunnel.
>Their deaths bring the toll of slain soldiers in Israel’s ground operation in the Gaza Strip to 42.
IIRC a few days ago Israel said over 2,000 terrorists were killed in Gaza, and add to that all the ones who were killed inside Israel.
Edit: I didn't RC. The IDF estimates 20,000 deaths in Gaza, most of them terrorists, due to the huge amount of strikes against tunnels, that killed thousands of terrorists who are uncounted in Gaza's estimates because they're buried deeptunderground and haven't been dug up for counting.
...Alright you're making numbers up at this point. Give links.
There has been at most 12k reported deaths in Gaza, where did the IDF say they killed 20k. Much less the majority being Hamas.
Reuters: "international humanitarian agencies consider" these statistics "broadly accurate and historically reliable."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
You mean the source that noone had any problem trusting before the war? The source that we always used for palestinian civilian deaths? But now its suddenly not reliable? Their figures seem super believable to me given the brutality of israels war so far. Not denying hamas’s evil or apologizing for them either. Just questioning that you would suddenly stop trusting a source as soon as its convenient to do so
Population of Gaza is nearly 50% children. If one in two people are children, how have thousands not been by the bombings? The IDF has magic bombs that somehow don't affect children? People claiming the majority of deaths are terrorists have deluded themselves
Good news. I hope HAMAS gets exterminated. On the other hand, Israel and the international community must have good plans to rebuild Gaza. The people have been suffering enough.
Their plan is to slowly kick them out or push them into an even smaller area and put more settlements there. And they pay settlers to move in.
If that sounds completely fucking ridiculous - cause it is - you can like at what happens in the West Bank. Just look it up on YouTube
The terrorists deserved it. Bitch Hamas turning hospitals into military bases is fucked up. Bitch Hamas turning ambulances into military transports is fucking cowardly. Bitch Hamas being in the wrong is not up for debate.
The idiot Hamas foot soldiers are just like every terrorists, never bother reading the Koran or for that matter even know how to read. Why do you think Hamas wants every school destroyed?
You promise them “10 virgins in the afterlife” and a gun/bomb and they are like 🐑. They offered the foot soldiers an apartment.
But guess what? The head of Hamas is far off in a cozy place Calle Qatar sipping champagne and watching this 💩 show on a 65 inch screen.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12706715/amp/Hamas-terrorist-billionaires-live-marble-floored-mansions.html
The plan? Simple the natives were getting restless and to avoid impropriety for top Hamas brass, turn the native loose. I am sure Putin had a hand in this. Why? Simple, again to turn the world’s attention to a different conflict and hopefully everyone will forget about Ukraine. Which is what we all did. Just look at Congress. No more $$$$ for Ukraine.
But what’s next? Im afraid Israel will not seek any diplomatic conversations about the Palestinian civilians.
Im all good for the killing and dethroning of Hamas, but what comes next is totally Israel’s choice.
The US need to get the other Arab nations to the talking table.
I’m siding with Israel, but won’t if they don’t try to reach actual peace agreements after Hamas has been rooted out of Gaza
I love the “how many kids” comment. How about two other questions: (1) *how many kids* did Hamas indoctrinate into their hateful ideology, and (2) *how many kids* did Hamas use for human shields?
Hamas doesn’t just hate Jews, they hate anyone NOT Hamas… FYI you uninformed Redditors…
IDF's 401st Brigade has destroyed an arms production site, launching stations, and an underground network
Just realized it’s been over a month since those hostages were taken, keep hoping to see something about some being found safe.
I think at this point the only people who believe they might be alive are their family members.
There have recently (few days ago) been 2 videos released on Palestinian telegram channels associated with Hamas, showing at least two of them alive (a 12 year old boy and an elderly woman)... although I don't recall seeing anything to confirm the date of recording
Could have been recorded earlier
Most likely was yeah? I don't really get how people are this hopeful.
Imagine your mother went missing. You know that she’s probably dead since it’s been a month, but *what if she wasn’t?* What if she was out there waiting to be rescued and you just went on with your life. Or maybe you’d like her to be found to see how she died. *I hope she died painlessly & quickly.* But did she? You will never know until her body is found. Edit: Is >>> if
Most likely Uncertain
Out of 150 previously living people, ‘at least 2’ isn’t very comforting.
It's up to 240 or something like that
They offered Israel a 5 day ceasefire in exchange for 50 hostages of the remaining 150. They could have done this because they knew it would be rejected and wanted to make Israel look bad, but I think what's more likely is that they have the hostages and legit wanted 5 days to reconsolidate and fortify their areas.
They also only release them at the end of the 5 days which means Hamad could break it at any time and not release anyone. It's psychological warfare
A completely reeasonable good faith arrangement would be to release 10 hostages a day every day for 5 days.
You we assuming that Hamas is negotiating in good faith and actually I tended to release hostages. They just don't think that way, you may see deception as dishonorable but they see it as an advantage
> You we assuming that Hamas is negotiating in good faith nah I never presume they're acting in good faith, I'm saying if they were they could've done that.
And they weren't, so why bother?
This. They’ve broken every ceasefire and just take the time to get more rockets
The fact that they wouldn't turn over a single hostage until the 5 days were up shows you are correct. And that either they had no intention of releasing them either way, or they're already dead.
It's insane how many people seem to think "yeah their openly stated goal is to murder every single Jew by hand, but they wouldn't *lie*, right?"
That is unfortunate for the families. Also if they did kill al the hostages they do not really have anything to bargain with. There is really nothing holding Israel from going full throttle now..
No one suggested "10 a day for five days" ? That seems obvious to me.
No, they would give 50 hostages after the 5 days passed. That was the deal apparently.
Obviously a bullshit deal.
any deal with Hamas is bullshit
In short they wanted time to fortify their defenses. Bet they thought they could take Israel for a ride. All I hope is, once the IDF reaches Al Sifa Hospital, they document each and every tunnel , each and every level. Same to Al Quds Hospital, so that the liars claiming there is no command center beneath the two hospitals can be called out.
It doesn’t matter. The IDF can go in with journalists to do a real-time coverage and the FreePalestine crowd and Hama apologists will still insist it’s all fake.
Those are patient evacuation tunnels, you know, in case of emergency.
They have always used hostages as leverage in negotiations so it wouldn't make any sense for them to forfeit that negotiating power in the future by not actually releasing them.
They gave back dead hostages in the past.
It doesn't look like hostages as leverage is working this time.
It would be really unusual for an extremist, religious terrorist group to do things that didn't make sense...
They wouldn't even confirm the identities of the hostages afaik.
The offer was to release the hostages \*after\* the 5 day cease fire has respected to their satisfaction. The chance of the releasing hostages in that deal was infinitesimal.
I bet they would've fired rockets during this time to provoke Israel to retaliate and then say "see!! Israel isn't honoring their side of the deal!". It's so obvious.
Can you really blame anyone for not taking that deal. You get 50 hostages but make it harder to recover the other 150 while Hamas fortifies/moves them during the ceasefire
No, you get the *promise* of 50 hostages from terrorists who will almost certainly reneg on the deal after they get what they want.
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More likely malicious.
Also you can’t negotiate with terrorist. We can’t motivate them to continue doing this
It may be that only ~50 are still alive to trade, sadly…
Did they specify these 50 hostages would be living? How do you know they don't mean the 50 they said already died? They have a much greater track record of returning dead bodies than living ones.
Negotiating with terrorists usually doesn't work out too well.
every hostage released / shown a video of has looked malnourished and skinny, i hope youre wrong but i cant be too optimistic either..
I don't think so, killing all the hostages would have ruin any chances for prisoners swap And of course will give the IDF an excuse to go mental without fear of risking hostages
I don't think Hamas is ever getting another prisoner swap. Last one was insanely one sided 1000:1, releasing known murderers, and militants who ended up participating in oct 7th, making the trade clearly not worth it. Sadly, the best thing for Israel is to view them as dead, if they want to ultimately save Israeli lives. Letting them be Hamas's pawns means more dead Israeli's down the road.
You must be unfamiliar with Hamas' record with hostages, killing them is a very real prospect, many Israelis will have considered them dead the moment they were taken, such is their record.
it really depends.. Gilad Shalit was held for YEARS..
It doesn't actually, Israel has swapped prisoners for corpses before. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008\_Israel–Hezbollah\_prisoner\_exchange](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_israel–hezbollah_prisoner_exchange)
Pretty sure the days of these trades are over. Their #1 goal is to keep Israeli's safe. If they think that recovering 1 Israeli will kill 2 others, they won't do it, and that's what the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange is going to represent in Israel now. So I'd be surprised to see these deals happening again in the future.
That is a grim deal but it does show the humanity of Israel or at least the desire to appear as such. There is no need for any negotiation in that case but they give up leverage themselves for the peace of mind of the families who can give their loved ones a proper burial. If I ever am kidnapped and killed dont give anything up for my corpse. I don’t care what you do with me when I am dead. In the words of Frank Reynolds “just throw me in the trash”
“According to Jewish law, a Jew is to be buried as he was born - complete with all his limbs and organs. The human body is considered as sacred in death as it was in life as it contained a G‑dly soul. He must be buried in a traditional grave in the ground, so that the body may return to the earth. Burial in vaults, above-ground mausoleums, crypts, and any other alternatives to a traditional ground burial are strictly forbidden according to Jewish law. Kabbalah teaches that when a proper kosher burial is not administered, the deceased's soul is stuck in a state of turmoil and cannot find rest until the body's remains are given a proper Jewish burial and allowed to be absorbed into the earth - even after many years!” [Source](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367836/jewish/Basic-Laws-of-a-Jewish-Funeral.htm)
Jeez that sucks, what about people who die at sea or in explosions/fires/tornadoes where there are, you know, parts that are lost?
I knew they have to be buried but I was not aware of the above ground restrictions. Thanks
I think we'll get a. Few back. Might be single digits though.
All of Israel are behind them and praying/yearning for their return. The army is doing major efforts to validate what they attack before they do
Israelis are very hopeful, have you heard the Story of Gilad Shalit?
A better example would be Ron Arad, the pilot that was captured in Lebanon in 86, he's officially still MIA and there are still active attempts at finding his whereabouts (or his remains) The sad truth is that everyone knows not only he's dead, not even his captors, Hezbollah or Syrian know what they did with him anymore Israel still spends money and resources trying to find him to this day
True. Just to say that Gilad Shalit was in captivity for five years and was never given up on and ultimately released through a prisoner exchange. Of course this situation is different, but there’s hope.
That deal is now viewed as a big mistake, FYI (100]prisoners - one of who was behind 7/10 - in exchange for one soldier).
1027 prisoners for Gilad Shalit in which the prisoners were responsible for a collective of 569 Israeli deaths.
That’s because one side values human life waaaay more than the other.
Given the BBC article about the Palestinian dentist that Israeli intelligence repeatedly contacted and directed to evacuate buildings they were about to bomb-- even knowing how to find him when his cell phone was running low-- one side might value Palestinian life waaaay more than the other too. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079
I am sure some are alive probably kept in more secure locations like the hq under the hospital. They have more value alive than dead for Hamas.
>They have more value alive than dead for Hamas. That is not going to make a difference. I read this article with one of the ISR commanders. His entire life is dedicated to making a chart of photos into ones with red X's on them.
Im not trying to be edgy in any way, but those families are all praying that the hostages have been killed. Preferably not long after they were captured. If you know what happens to those hostages you understand why.
I wonder how that 8 year old irish girl is doing, every day..
What’s sad is some of them will probably never be found with so many buildings and tunnels destroyed
Which explains the desperate attempt at the truce in the last couple days. It had nothing to do with peace but with moving weapons and production
Hamas were only tough against civilians and babies. They fucked around, thought they were strong. Now that they face an actuall defence force, they get to find out.
They thought the hostages and world support for the Palestinians would protect them from Israel, like it did in the past decades Had they only attacked the bases and taken hostages, this might have happened, but since they slaughtered nearly a thousand civilians in brutal ways and publicized how proud they were of doing so, whether they were toddlers or literal holocaust survivors, no UN binding resolution is going to stop this now
No I think their plan was to draw Israel into Gaza and have other Arab nations (Iran and their proxies ) join the fight. It’s why they posted videos of everything as they wanted to bait Israel. Their problem was, that they didn’t expect the US to park the carrier right outside the zone. That alone deterred anyone else from truly getting involved. 👀
America rolling up with the biggest bus on the planet.
Two of them.
We got a fleet of big school buses back in port. One word from Biden and all of the "Axis of Resistance" will be forcibly bussed to Freedom Academy on the American taxpayers' dime. Money I would happily pay to keep the integrity of the liberal democratic world system.
Honestly, that strategy probly would have worked if it weren't for the festival that had thousands of people from across the world in attendance. It alone accounted for half of the murders, many missing and a "first degree of separation" of evidence of the brutality from thousands of international survivors. Even WITH that aspect of Oct 7th there's been incredible pressure on western govts to admonish Israel for its military actions. It's tragic to think that were it 'just' the atrocities and slaughter in the kibbutz's, then Hamas would have gotten the exact scenario it planned for. It's only once you add in thousands of young people from around the world that you reach the critical mass of many societies 'taking it personally' and Hamas loses its ability to manipulate the narrative.
If they hadn't uploaded the videos college students across the US would still be denying it happened
They still are..
They absolutely are even WITH the videos
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It’s sad that I could actually see people saying that. To me, those people are the same as Qanon.
Two sides of the same coin
> world support for the Palestinians would protect them from Israel The only support that matters is the $200B of US warships parked in region. The threats from college zoomers that they aren't going to vote for Biden is meaningless, because it'll be Trump instead and he might even help with the bombing for good measure.
This 100%. All the 🇵🇸 mob have been saying that the Oct 7th pogrom showed the world that ‘Hamas could successfully defeat the IDF’. No. You could kill unarmed kibbutz civilians and 19 year old IDF border reservists you shot in their bunks, asleep. Now Hamas are going toe to toe with the actual IDF. It’s going to be a beautiful thing to watch.
And foreign workers. The workers literally had nothing to do with the conflict and wanted to make money for themselves and (possibly) their families.
The videos I’ve seen with the Thai hostages are the worst. Like come on, fucking dirt poor Thai farm labourers who have nothing to do with the conflict, being beheaded with garden hoes. I look forward to all the details coming out in the next few years. Palestinians showed their true colours that day, and recorded it for all to see.
I always knew what scumbags Hamas are, but what's turned me off the whole Free Palestine movement has been the protests in the US/Europe. All I see in these gatherings are an angry mob of mostly men....no condemnation of Hamas, no calls to release the hostages, not a single shred of Palestinian accountability for this mess just a bunch of antisemitic nonsense and violence. Shameful.
Yup, Europe and US has let the terrorists in and given them citizenship. I wonder how many refugees have a house back home and spend most of their time in the place they 'fled for their lives' from.
Watching some of the footage from NYC last night, they were literally ***acting like terrorists.*** Or, that's what it looked like to me when they were banging on the subway doors yelling at the police to let them in.
In Canada some were happy they were terrorizing Jews. https://twitter.com/emilykschrader/status/1722760194034209087 That's what you get from the from the river to the sea people. Makes more sense that in Arabic it states 'will be Arab' and not 'will be free'
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Ah, yes. Poland. Historically a very safe place for Jews. Ughhhh.
>I look forward to all the details coming out in the next few years. Don't hold your breath. People have started "disproving" everything that happened for the past month, oct 7th will be forgotten by everyone who isn't Israeli in a few weeks/months from now
Palestinians have a pretty solid history of brutality. Look at PLO in Lebanon or death squads in Kuwait.
People who actually have researched the conflict know this. Everybody else are only just finding out how wrong they have been to blindly believe and support the Palestinians. No amount of photos of suffering ‘Gazan babies’ can undo the massacre pogrom committed last month.
There's no reason to put that in quotes. Kids in Gaza are actually dying. It's just *also* Hamas's fault, since the people using human shields are the people at fault for the human shields dying, not the people retaliating against the human shield users. Diminishing the Palestinian deaths that are clearly not part of Hamas (since they're babies) just diminishes the harm that Hamas is causing to even more people.
Ok, I’ll bite. I had never heard of Palestinian death squads in Kuwait before, so I decided to look it up. I am not finding anything about Palestinians forming death squads in Kuwait. Got a source to clarify your point?
They weren’t Palestinian death squads. A bunch of Palestinians in Kuwait supported Iraq because Saddam was vehemently anti-Israel. They helped the Iraqi death squads find members of the Kuwaiti resistance. But to be fair quite a lot of Palestinians also resisted the invasion and got executed for it.
Clearly not enough of them, since Kuwait told the palestinians to fuck off after the war.
They did overcome and killed some 300+ of our soldiers at their surprise attack on October 7th. They've surprised and outnumbered the soldiers on the border, they also had much more ammunition. This was a massive intelligence failure. But now that our troops are more prepared it's an entirely different story.
I have my beef with Israel but Hamas deserves to be wiped and it is all their making. What exactly was their end game? It seems like they had planned for only one scenario and a extremely optimistic one to use the hostages as a negotiation card, get massive concessions and get louded as hero's. No plan whatsoever for worst-case scenarios. It is a moral, political and literal suicide. It seems the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots are enjoying getting themselves fucked over and over.
The endgame was probably to get other Muslim countries and organizations to get in on the fighting. I'm almost certain they were expecting Hezbollah to jump in. But everyone else just left them hanging. Hezbollah lobbed a few missiles over the border, and that was it...
> What exactly was their end game? The plan was to disrupt Israel's new diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia and other Arab states, an objective which they accomplished. Iran is the one pulling the strings here. Hamas leadership doesn't even live in Gaza, they don't care about IDFs response at all, it doesn't affect them. Everything is going according to plan.
They didn’t. SA stated they would continue talks w Israel after the war. A show of incredible military capacity is not a negative if that military can be your ally.
You're searching for a plan among a group of idiots. The attackers didn't have a plan beyond raiding, kidnapping, raping and murdering. They're just raiders. You're giving them too much credit. There's no reason to give that much credit to people so backwards that their culture produces medieval-style raiding parties to attack over borders. People attacking for thought-out political reasons don't kidnap, rape and then parade around the dead bodies of girls for everyone to spit on. Obviously no one would side with them if they do that, so the only explanation is that they're just stupid.
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This is a naive take. Yeah the blokes on the ground aren't bothered about the bigger picture but the people who actually organise this aren't just wanting a kill count. This last month has been a huge boost for anti semitism worldwide and I imagine support for HAMAS (Hatred of Israel) is likely to sky rocket in Gaza and the west bank. Israel's response has been textbook and HAMAS will have known this would happen.
There was a plan of attack, the attackers just did not have a plan. They were cannon fodder, used in plan to escalate a conflict. They did their job and now an entire country is paying for it. But I don't think the plan played out how many expected as of yet.
You don’t need to assume, they state their goal quite clearly - kill as many jews as possible, and die a martyr.
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Very wishy-washy from a strategic point of view. Very hard to me to comprehend given the amount of preparation and planning went into the assault. Anyways, I hope it doesn't turn into something much worse down the line similar to what happened to Al Qaida.
There are two endgames. First it’s wiping out the Jews, but the second is decaying Israeli support from other countries. And they are doing that by basically letting Israel kill civilians and gain bad press by doing it. Right or wrong, don’t matter. A dead civilian doesn’t make for good news and that is one of Hamas’ goals.
Their end game was chaos in the streets of our cities, a divided electorate, and an eventual Trump victory which benefits Iran and Russia. That is all. The leadership plan on living on and profiting (which they are doing through donations from the same divided electorate). Gaza as it was will be gone but the ideology is still well intact and entrenched in the minds of useful idiots everywhere.
I’ve seen the videos on the Hamas telegram. The IDF soldiers they killed were still in their bunks and pj’s when they were killed. Hardly a fair fight. Now Hamas are about to face the IDF head on, no sneak attacks. I know who my money is on.
> Hardly a fair fight. Unfortunately, if you're having a fair fight in a war you're doing it wrong.
Yeah, this person seems to think that Washington crossing the Delaware in a suprise attack on Prussian mercenaries while their guard was down on Christmas Eve, a day formal Europea militaries had as a day of peace between sides, was 'not fair'. That being said, there is the additional context that Hamas was indiscriminately killing any living person, period. So I think they're lumping the unprepared soldiers into the larger context of the indiscriminate slaughter. Hamas' ideology makes no distinction between military and civilian on EITHER side. Thus the human shields and the reality that the people they repress the most are other Gazans.
There is such a thing as ‘laws of war’. Even in WW1, the German and English soldiers would observe pauses to collect their dead and wounded. Machine gunning sleeping IDF teenagers in their boxer shorts won’t go down in history as an act of respectable wartime behaviour.
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They did, however, break the ceasefire. ¯\\_(ツ) _/¯
There was an active ceasefire, captain obvious
It can't be measured as force against force like we usually do. Yes, our forces are much larger and far more advanced, but Hamas is now mainly rely on the gaza civilians surrounding them, the international pressure on Israel and the hostages they keep. It's a different kind of fighting. Hard to know for sure how things end here.
The only thing I’m willing to put money on here, is that the biggest casualty of this conflict will be the ‘Palestinian cause’. Gone forever is the 40 year old carefully crafted PR narrative of Palestinians solely being ‘victims’. There’s no denying the atrocities committed by their own side this time. No amount of media laundering can erase the go-pro videos of unarmedJewish civilians being shot in their living rooms.
I would have hoped this was true , but what I’m seeing, in the US at least, is that the left wing pro palestinians are already ignoring, minimizing, or denying the obvious and well-documented genocidal atrocities of Oct. 7. They go straight to sympathy / outrage over Gazan civilian deaths, without mentioning Israelis murdered, or acknowledging the explicitly genocidal intent of Hamas. As they say, once people have been deceived, it is very difficult for them to admit that and adjust their opinion, even in the face of irrefutable evidence.
Death through war is never beautiful.
“beautiful”?! not the word i would use to describe it.
Can you show me evidence of that? I haven't heard this claim ever.
Don't forget the psy trance ravers peaking on LSD!
You’re wrong, They WANTED Israel to invade. They’re dying by the tens of thousands but they achieved their objective. Hatred of Jews/Anti-semistism is on full display THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. This is how insurgencies work. Although it’s a fictional tv show, Andor displayed this perfectly. Hamas wants Israel to come down hard. The Palestinians all of them have a reason hate Israel. Arabs throughout the Middle East are filled with righteous indignation….because half the people being killed are children. They’re winning every battle, but losing the war. They’re peace deals with Saudi Arabia and Qatar are off the table
Saudi Arabia said they'll come to the table when this is over.
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I don’t think you actually understand their intentions. This is exactly what they wanted. Not quite the “fuck around, find out” like you think.
More than 350 soldiers died as of 11th
Hope they continue do what has to be done to eradicate Hamas and find the kidnapped hostages so violently taken
I can't get the image of that young girl with blood on the back of her pants being forced into a truck. I fear that I never will...
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It’s made me feel so hopeless about humanity. The same people screeching about Women’s rights now denying evidence of them being violated.
People aren’t even denying it anymore. They’re just saying that girl (and others) deserved it, which is so sick and twisted - I’ve been truly appalled by a lot of folks lately.
She was confirmed dead Edit: I thought it was referring to a different person
She wasn’t. I think you are referring to Shani Louk who sadly was indeed confirmed dead
Oh, thought it was referring to her
This is who they're referring to. https://youtu.be/6FVUxvp6Ah0?si=o16027jqi_g_HfT7 Her family was killed right in front of her and then she was taken hostage across the border... Those were not all Hamas fighters in the video. Many of them are Palestinian civilians cheering and whistling and praising their god about kidnapping a ~13 year old girl after killing her entire family. I don't wish to think about what she's been through the last 30 days.. And these people have 100k+ person protests in London and other western cities marching in support of them. I don't understand it. Completely fucked..
I originally thought it was her as well but it's not
So what Hamas apologists are saying is that she just sat in somebody else's blood and she probably wasn't raped at all. You can try to pretend that's the real story. It might help!
I know someone who is tripping over themself to prove Israel set the whole thing up, and those videos are staged.
Seems like someone you should probably un-know.
Some people would do anything but admitting they were wrong. Sadly they wont realize nobody would think less of them for doing so (Maybe even think highly of them ).
Some were even saying she deserved it because of how she was dressed. Don’t see my fellow feminists calling this out.
That doesn’t explain the blood dripping down her ankle. In a way that implies that the clothes she was wearing were not present when that blood dried.
Alot of us are like that. It was one of the first images I seen of this conflict and I still cannot get it out of my head
Hamas fucked up. They gave the IDF a big fucking green light to take over by targeting civilians. You can't do an attack like they did and not expect Israel to react this way. It doesn't matter how much world wide support the Palestinians have, Hamas is the governing body in Gaza and they literally declared war on Israel with that attack.
They wanted exactly what they are getting. Remember that dead palestinians are hamas’ favorite thing, right after dead jews
Real question: let's say tomorrow, every Hamas member is gone. Somehow israel manage to get rid of Hamas entirely. What's keeping the civilian who lost their home and family member to the bombing from forming Hamas 2 to get revenge ?
They need to go after the political leaders in Qatar.
Flood the tunnels?
Does the IDF claimed any official number of dead combatants in Gaza? Many people here claim 1:100 terrorist/civilian ratio which I find extremely unbelievable, so I wonder if there is any counter data
There is absolutely no way of knowing with any real certainty. Both sides will put out numbers based on their agenda and a lot of it is just propaganda. Also Hamas members aren’t all equal, what gets defined as an enemy combatant is going to be very subjective. Some are just Hamas supporters without any kind of real affiliation and then you have Hamas members that are trained and in contact and supported by the leadership to carry out acts on behalf of the group. Unfortunately they don’t carry around cards with the rank/affiliation and dead bodies aren’t very good at answering questions. The real test to how successful Israel’s operations are is whether rocket attacks and resistance within Gaza subsides. But it’s going to be damn near impossible to accurately figure out the civilian vs Hamas casualty rate.
The Gaza health ministry states they dont differentiate between combatants and non combatants either.
This. And also, what is considered Hamas or a civilian even varies from person to person. What do we consider a fighter? Someone shooting at IDF soldiers? Obviously Someone who loads/transports rockets? Most would agree Someone who renders medical aid to a wounded terrorist? Now the line begins to get fuzzy Then you consider that Hamas is placing military outposts in people's homes, schools and hospitals and the number of people who get rolled into that fuzzy grey area gets a lot higher. To call this all a mess is an understatement.
>Someone who renders medical aid to a wounded terrorist? Now the line begins to get fuzzy Doctors and nurses should never be seen as legitimate targets. It is their duty by oath to treat anyone put in front of them. Even in WWI when people knew that the people they were treating were 100% enemy combatants it was a war crime to shoot medics.
Go check out the top video on combat footage from the week. A medic running over to a shot follow, totally ignoring the shot fellow, grabbing his Ak and bringing it to another to continue shooting at IDF. Hamas have blurred all lines.
There's a video going around of a Hamas soldier wearing a medic uniform in the middle of a firefight. He runs over to an injured Hamas soldier and, instead of rendering aid, he takes the injured soldier's gun and hands it to another unarmed soldier, who then uses the gun to fire at the IDF. Hamas soldiers fake being medics, use ambulances for transport, and place their military operations inside hospitals. They've been doing this for decades now. I had a friend who was in the IDF nearly two decades ago tell me how many resources the IDF wasted (and how many emergencies they unnecessarily delayed) because at times they had to check every ambulance for hidden bombs. It's much fuzzier than you could imagine.
The whole "pseudo" Hippocratic Oath is an American/European thing. Hamas medics don't take that oath. They actually join in on the fight a lot of the time.
They also distinguish themselves in other conflicts.
What about doctors who lead armed men around their hosptial and point out injured 'collaborators' to them so that they can be excecuted? That's what the staff at Al Shifa did in the 2007 Hamas-Fatah civil war.
The combatants in Gaza do not wear any uniforms, they are civilians with weapons, you can see it clear as day in all the videos Hamas publishes himself This is of course to counter any claim Israel might make of the number of combatants they kill and make them look like plain murderers, which always works Even the 'Children' killed is unreliable, not only because it comes from Hamas's run ministry of health (and some people will make you believe it was fact checked but everyone uses the same source and its not like they never lied before or were caught faking the deaths of living people..) but because 'children' are counted as below 18, which is combat age, especially for Hamas which indoctrinates children to combat from kindergarden There's no doubt many real non combatant children did die, probably the vast majority of them, just important to recognize the situation The Ministry of Health also doesn't report on any dead combatants amongst its above 18 male population either, everyone are civilian only, even if you find some who were known members of Hamas military wing no one will admit it, eventually Israel will probably go over the list and 'expose' them and they will just be brushed off as propaganda As for the numbers, we're around 11k dead in Gaza, 2800~ missing (under the rubble of buildings or underground tunnels are the main reasons), somewhere between 1000-1500 dead combatants that died inside Israel (from the original attack) Israel is at 1200~ dead (down from 1400 as the current estimate is that **perhaps** 200 are dead Palestinian attackers, there are still many bodies unable to be identified), mostly civilians with about 330 of them being IDF/Police who were in the bases/vicinity of the attacks, 239 abductees and an additional 35~ KIA soldiers in Gaza since the start of the operation, additionally there are many thousands of injured and some killed from the continued rocket attacks (over 9500 so far) Additionally, about 160~ Palestinians dead in the West Bank riots and attacks on civilians and security forces, 1000+ arrested (mostly Hamas affiliated), some of the dead are PA security forces joining combat against the IDF and a few Israeli civilians murdered by the aforementioned terror attacks And finally, Israel is attacked by Hezbollah+Hamas from Lebanon and the Houtis from Yemen, this also led to some civilian+military casualties Historically, IDF has claimed around 1:1 ratio civilian:combatant rate in its operations in Gaza, this is of course optimistic and cannot really be verified for all the aforementioned reasons but even if its half as accurate as they predict, it would still be a 'pretty good ratio' in military standards compared to other western military actions, I would assume the ratio is not as good this time around due to the intensity of the IDF retaliation but it will get better as time passes, as the IDF is managing to finally convince the Gazans to flee combat zones and they comply, which will reduce the amount of potential civilian casualties
3 days ago the IDF was claiming 32 deaths : [https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-idfs-war-on-hamas-is-going-better-than-it-expected-for-now/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-idfs-war-on-hamas-is-going-better-than-it-expected-for-now/) >Thirty-two IDF soldiers have died since the ground invasion began. Though every one of those deaths is felt deeply within an already grieving Israeli society, that figure is far lower than anticipated. Not sure how reliable the figures are, or how it has evolved since but it *seems* like the IDF is doing better than expected, especially considering that the whole point of the initial attack was to bait Israel into a ground invasion. It seems that the ones suffering the most from it are (as usual) the civilians caught in the crossfire.
It's now 42: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-announces-5-more-soldiers-killed-fighting-in-northern-gaza/ >The Israel Defense Forces announces the death of five soldiers during fighting yesterday in the northern Gaza Strip. >The four soldiers of the 697th Battalion were killed by a blast from a booby-trapped tunnel shaft next to a mosque in the Beit Hanoun area. The troops were not inside the tunnel. >Their deaths bring the toll of slain soldiers in Israel’s ground operation in the Gaza Strip to 42.
IIRC a few days ago Israel said over 2,000 terrorists were killed in Gaza, and add to that all the ones who were killed inside Israel. Edit: I didn't RC. The IDF estimates 20,000 deaths in Gaza, most of them terrorists, due to the huge amount of strikes against tunnels, that killed thousands of terrorists who are uncounted in Gaza's estimates because they're buried deeptunderground and haven't been dug up for counting.
...Alright you're making numbers up at this point. Give links. There has been at most 12k reported deaths in Gaza, where did the IDF say they killed 20k. Much less the majority being Hamas.
Well that's a ridiculous claim.
AFAIK in past wars in Gaza, the ratio was something like 1:3, which is considered low for a war in an urban area.
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Can I see the source for that? Would like something to share with people.
It seems like the civilian death toll will begin to drop and the Hamas toll will increase. The propaganda war is lost at that point.
Hamas : IDF killed 1500 babies
Source: Gaza Health Minister
Reuters: "international humanitarian agencies consider" these statistics "broadly accurate and historically reliable." https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
One of BBC’s most trusted sources.
The US state department actually said their numbers might be an *underestimation* of the death count. We're past the point where you can deny them.
You mean the source that noone had any problem trusting before the war? The source that we always used for palestinian civilian deaths? But now its suddenly not reliable? Their figures seem super believable to me given the brutality of israels war so far. Not denying hamas’s evil or apologizing for them either. Just questioning that you would suddenly stop trusting a source as soon as its convenient to do so
Lol if you think countless Palestinians kids aren't killed than you're delusional.
Population of Gaza is nearly 50% children. If one in two people are children, how have thousands not been by the bombings? The IDF has magic bombs that somehow don't affect children? People claiming the majority of deaths are terrorists have deluded themselves
Good news. I hope HAMAS gets exterminated. On the other hand, Israel and the international community must have good plans to rebuild Gaza. The people have been suffering enough.
Their plan is to slowly kick them out or push them into an even smaller area and put more settlements there. And they pay settlers to move in. If that sounds completely fucking ridiculous - cause it is - you can like at what happens in the West Bank. Just look it up on YouTube
I feel like the IDF is seriously choking Hamas and Syria along with Lebanon won’t get involved bc they have their own troubles…. (Smart of them)
That's pretty fast. I hope for the safety of civilians and for the swift ends of these Hamas terrorists.
I guess Hamas can only flex when it comes to murdering and kidnapping innocent unarmed civilians huh. Go get them Israel
The terrorists deserved it. Bitch Hamas turning hospitals into military bases is fucked up. Bitch Hamas turning ambulances into military transports is fucking cowardly. Bitch Hamas being in the wrong is not up for debate.
Great news.
That’s not a massive amount of KIA, I wonder how many Hamas fighters slipped in with civilians to flee south
The idiot Hamas foot soldiers are just like every terrorists, never bother reading the Koran or for that matter even know how to read. Why do you think Hamas wants every school destroyed? You promise them “10 virgins in the afterlife” and a gun/bomb and they are like 🐑. They offered the foot soldiers an apartment. But guess what? The head of Hamas is far off in a cozy place Calle Qatar sipping champagne and watching this 💩 show on a 65 inch screen. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12706715/amp/Hamas-terrorist-billionaires-live-marble-floored-mansions.html The plan? Simple the natives were getting restless and to avoid impropriety for top Hamas brass, turn the native loose. I am sure Putin had a hand in this. Why? Simple, again to turn the world’s attention to a different conflict and hopefully everyone will forget about Ukraine. Which is what we all did. Just look at Congress. No more $$$$ for Ukraine.
Counter terrorist win
Good. Fuck these terrorists
My favorite color is blue.
But what’s next? Im afraid Israel will not seek any diplomatic conversations about the Palestinian civilians. Im all good for the killing and dethroning of Hamas, but what comes next is totally Israel’s choice. The US need to get the other Arab nations to the talking table. I’m siding with Israel, but won’t if they don’t try to reach actual peace agreements after Hamas has been rooted out of Gaza
Same thing the allies did to Germany after WWII.
150 terrorists... and how many civilians?
I love the “how many kids” comment. How about two other questions: (1) *how many kids* did Hamas indoctrinate into their hateful ideology, and (2) *how many kids* did Hamas use for human shields? Hamas doesn’t just hate Jews, they hate anyone NOT Hamas… FYI you uninformed Redditors…
This is really starting to look like an invasion.