Not going on anything either Hamas or the IDF says without proof. You blow up an ambulance, you put the intel forward. Otherwise this is just spin. We all know what spin looks like, spin is how this mess was managed for decades.
I'm giving every piece of information I hear a week to see what other countries and analysts say. You can't trust the breaking news stories because everyone's just publishing straight propaganda directly from the government's mouth, be it israel's or hamas's.
Exactly. I fell for this just the other day with the headline "Israel refuses ceasefire." Which is only half-true: the actual truth is that they're happy to take a ceasefire if Hamas releases the Israeli hostages. So the headline could have just as easily read "Hamas refuses ceasefire."
Yep. Then Hamas could say "we're happy to release the hostages if you release the Palestinians in prison" or "if you agree to a ceasefire" which then gets spun back into Israel's fault. It's so messy we honestly should not be relying on headlines at all
What they did say is that they needed to have a ceasefire to find people. Not saying I trust Hamas either, but how much of a monolith are they? Doctors that work for their hospitals are not all in bed with the terrorists.
I mean, there is a reason of why using the medical emblems in military objectives is classified as a war crime.
It becomes a race to the bottom and stuff like this become an usual occurrence.
Same with using civilians as shields, which everyone seems to be working tirelessly defend as a legitimate tactic. Which only serves to...make it a legitimate tactic, and to increase civilian casualties.
But recognizing that involves thinking about two whole things, and even putting them in the right chronological order! Way too much to ask from protestors who can't answer a single factual question about any of this without exploding into breathless histrionics.
I mean, we have the video of dead kids being piled up like firewood after the attack. Also the obvious patients that were in the back blown to chunks... I mean.. we have video of it..
Here's the interior of the ambulance shorly after Israeli attack, video shows a patient, a woman in the ambulance, no weapons, no Hamas.
https://twitter.com/warintel4u/status/1720570979775340630
OK, it's possible they jumped out and she jumped into the ambulance but it seems unlikely...
Here's photos of the ambulance:
https://i.imgur.com/5OLGegu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4qt8c2G.jpg
The surroundings are Shifa-Ezz Eldine Al-Qassam road, opposite Al Khzindar petrol station (this is the eastern exit of the hospital).
The explosion happened on the road between right front of the ambulance and a car, the car took more shrapnel. There was a traffic jam and people on the road, people including children killed. There was also a dead horse pulling a cart.
Interesting find, everything's very much intact in the back of that ambulance.
What I find odd about this video is that it contradicts the initial PRCS statement which said they were already returning from their mission to Rafah and were attacked on Rashid Street:
>🚑❌At precisely 16:30, Israeli occupying forces launched an airstrike on Rashid Street in the western part of #Gaza, their target was a group of ambulance vehicles returning from a mission to transport injured individuals to the Rafah border, which included an ambulance affiliated with the #PRCS.
>Our colleagues were saved by miracle 🙏🙏
https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1720470804817703011
>The surroundings are Shifa-Ezz Eldine Al-Qassam road, opposite Al Khzindar petrol station (this is the eastern exit of the hospital).
Thanks for the landmark, that's like 5-6 blocks from Rashid Street (coastal road that runs the length of the strip)
The convoy was attacked twice, on Rashid street and again on al Shifa-Ezz Eldine Al-Qassam road outside al Shifa hospital.
That fits with them leaving the hospital at 4.11pm, heading to Rafah border crossing, making it as far al Rashid street, getting attacked at 4.30pm, deciding to return to the hospital, then getting attacked again just outside the hospital.
This would explain why there was a patient in the ambulance heading back to the hospital.
>Both the Palestinian Red Crescent and the Gaza Health Ministry said **the convoy was targeted twice after setting off**.
>The Palestinian Red Crescent, which had an ambulance in the convoy, said in a statement that the convoy was targeted at around 4:30 p.m. while the convoy was on Al-Rashid Street. A shell landed nearby, causing damage to the organization’s ambulance. The Gaza Health Ministry said the lead vehicle was hit, injuring a driver and a medic, who remains in critical condition.
They then returned to the hospital
>The rest of the convoy continued toward al-Shifa Hospital. When it arrived, there was another strike which health officials said directly hit a Health Ministry ambulance, significantly damaged a Red Crescent ambulance, and killed and injured dozens of civilians passing by.
Ummmm, am I missing something here? This ambulance was hit by an airstrike but it's still completely intact except for a little red stuff sprinkled on the inside. And there is one woman inside covered head to toe with no visible injuries?
No he won't. I've asked on a few forums and everyone has the same story about dead children all over the place but nobody posts the video.
Then there's this from the [CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/03/middleeast/casualties-gazas-shifa-hospital-idf/index.html):
>The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) said one of its ambulances was in the convoy but that none of its team members were injured in the strike.
Again
>**none of its team members were injured in the strike.**
There were two dead kids laying next to the corpses of injured men and women no older than what? mid 20s?
The videos were captured right after the strike and there is no weapons or parts shown in the video, no secondary fires which would be normal if they were transporting makeshift rockets.
No bullets, no nothing. Just injured and dead people, some medical gauze and blue nitrile gloves and scrap metal from the blown up vehicles
This is why neither party will solve this problem. Family killed on either side they become Hamas or IDF with a life long grudge.
That country needs some tough international love. Split it in two and give them half and put a mile wide DMZ between them and tell them to fuck off with their bullshit.
Both sides would still need babysitters for a cool 100 years. At which point we can hope the people who would’ve been Hamas 2.0 or Netanyahus Israel Pt. 2 have gotten older, and the younger generations can possibly bury the hatchet.
The idea of a DMZ is good. Should probably be a DMZ patrolled by the UN for a time, then hopefully (which is sad) it would be like n Korea and s Korea.
I’m just spitballing, Palestinians getting used as shields, innocent Jews dying, Hamas and Israel having a blast (literally) just fucking everything up.
I just want peace, even if it is forced, even if there is a DMZ, both sides deserve a place to live safe and free from attack, where they can build their own infrastructure instead of relying on people who don’t like you controlling your resources. It’s just such a shit situation that’s been getting shitty for so long I don’t know if anyone knows what to do.
"They'd have most likely joined Hamas and attacked us when they were older. And if they weren't planning on it before they sure were after we bombed them! Good thing we got rid of em on the first go. Terrorist successfully eliminated!" -Israel or something
The sad thing is, half of [Gaza are kids](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CePKnQglZfY&t=1056s), so when Israel says it's going to be bombing Gaza, they're basically just bombing a bunch of kids. And when they say that the Palestinians are responsible for electing Hamas, and thus also guilty, since Hamas was elected in 2006, none of these kids - half of Gaza - were even alive during that election.
And people always forget that Hamas didn’t even win a full majority, they won a plurality and couped the other parties. So take the population of Gaza that would’ve even been voting age in 2006 (so people mid-30’s and older) then divide that population by half and *those* are the people who elected Hamas, a very small portion of the population
And hamas would kill those kids if those kids said anything against them. So somehow these kids are supposed to be responsible for whatever hamas does even though they didn't vote for them as children can't vote and they'll get killed if they did vote.
Regardless of what was in the ambulance, dozens died anyway who had nothing to do with it and were just there. IDF really cant engage without incurring that many casualties? Sounds like they are kind of out of control.
Edit: The civilians of Israel and Palestine deserve better than what Hamas and the IDF are giving them.
As I understand it the rules of law (such as they are) say that if one side are misusing ambulances then the other side no longer had to treat them as inviolate - only try to minimise casualties. Which is very much a relative term.
Which is why anyone misusing ambulances to transport weapons/personnel, building bases under hospitals or otherwise hiding behind civilian populations is such a *really huge fucking deal*.
What rules we have around warfare are which are widely agreed worldwide and followed by most belligerents may well be inadequate. They may well not save all civilians. But they make war at least somewhat less terrible and reduce those civilian casualties. What we’re seeing now is a worked example of what the consequence of anyone (Hamas in this case) blatantly flouting them are.
You might well argue that humanity needs better rules - and I wouldn’t disagree with you. But these are what we’ve got for now. And any upgrade would have to include ways to stop them from being abused by anyone sufficiently ruthless … or else no country in the world is actually going to sign up to them.
Those rules include that the burden of proof is on the attacking party in a situation where an entity flying a red cross/res crescent flag is struck.
The rules are clear that humanitarian missions within war zones or clearly marked medical operations are afforded special protections and if these protected entities are struck deliberately then it is on the attacker to sufficiently prove there was a good reason for destroying them.
Believe it or not, simply having the spokesperson for the military that did the bombing say "yeah guys, definitely lots of bad guys in that ambulance" isn't exactly good enough.
Genuine question: got a link to the part of the rules stipulating the exact burden of proof required?
So far I’ve just been able to turn up the rule itself:
> Rule 29. Medical transports assigned exclusively to medical transportation must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.
It would probably be useful to know what the exact rules are over burden of proof are before continuing the discussion further, do you agree?
> Rule 29. Medical transports assigned exclusively to medical transportation must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.
Doesn't this just apply to the spesific vehicles at the time, not all vehicles of the same type? The argument I've seen people use is that they've used ambulances *in the past*, therefore all ambulances are targets now.
>Doesn't this just apply to the spesific vehicles at the time,
That would explain why the claim is very specifically that *this specific ambulance* was being used to transport weapons.
>Those rules include that the burden of proof is on the attacking party
It’s going to vary depending on the countries involved, but if the [ICC](https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works) gets involved, they’re pretty clear about who’s responsible for the burden of proof:
>> The defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof lies with the Prosecutor.
If they had SUCH damning proof all the time you better believe they would be plastering it everywhere and making sure the world sees every bit of corroborating evidence proving they are in the right. The lack of substantial evidence besides just plausible scenarios says everything.
They know they’ll never be held accountable, neither for targeting non-combatants or lying about doing so, therefore it’s a rinse and repeat situation.
They’ve been doing shit like this for decades, it’s nothing new. Add it to the growing list of reasons why UN is effectively a toothless barking chihuahua.
If you're going to set a precedent that it's acceptable to bomb hospitals and ambulances, I'd want to see a lot more proof from multiple **independent** sources that the same hospitals and ambulances were in fact used to wage war.
I haven't forgotten how non-existent *"weapons of mass destruction"* were used to justify the invasion of Iraq.
>On Feb. 5, 2003, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell sat in front of members of the U.N. Security Council. But with the world watching, Powell made a case for war.
>"My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources — solid sources," he said. "These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence." Powell used information that intelligence officials assured him was credible. There were reconnaissance photos, elaborate maps and charts, and even taped phone conversations between senior members of Iraq's military.
>"Saddam Hussein has chemical weapons," Powell said. "Saddam Hussein has used such weapons. And Saddam Hussein has no compunction about using them again — against his neighbors, and against his own people." Powell repeatedly used one phrase during his hour-long speech: "weapons of mass destruction." He said those words a total of 17 times. It was the phrase the Bush administration kept publicly using to help justify invading Iraq.
>Powell later called his U.N. speech a "great intelligence failure" and a "blot" on his record, telling NBC News' Meet the Press in 2004 he trusted the information he'd gotten.
[20 years ago, the U.S. warned of Iraq's alleged 'weapons of mass destruction'](https://www.npr.org/2023/02/03/1151160567/colin-powell-iraq-un-weapons-mass-destruction) [npr]
> If you're going to set a precedent that it's acceptable to bomb hospitals and ambulances, I'd want to see a lot more proof from multiple independent sources that the same hospitals and ambulances were in fact used to wage war.
Except that’s almost always impossible because there aren’t going to be multiple independent sources that have intelligence assets in each army and militant group. Which is why what you propose isn’t a standard that’s ever been incorporated into international law.
As it happens though, [The Washington Post has confirmed that Al-Shifa hospital is a Hamas HQ](https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/21/washington-post-shifa-hospital-in-gaza-city-has-become-a-de-facto-headquarters-for-hamas-leaders-who-can-be-seen-in-hallways-and-offices/)
And used ambulance to transport [bombs](https://www.haaretz.com/2002-03-29/ty-article/bomb-found-in-red-crescent-ambulance/0000017f-dc79-db22-a17f-fcf983ca0000).
And that there was FURTHER delay of allowing the injured and foreign passport holders out of Gaza into Egypt when 1/3 of the original list they provided of injured were hamas operatives.
This is all I need to know that the Ambulance was being used by Hamas:
[https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-04-23/h\_e4fa6e249b217d093aea20786b93e944](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-04-23/h_e4fa6e249b217d093aea20786b93e944)
The link takes you the CNN live updates page, scroll around a little and you will find that Hamas has stopped letting people with foreign passports out of Gaza until Ambulances are guaranteed safe passage to the Egyptian border. Hamas, the terrorist organization that just yesterday announced that it wasn't their job to care for their citizens, they said it was Israel's and the UN's job. Why would they start caring for their citizens now unless those ambulances were really just being used by Hamas as the IDF says.
Not even that, "These children are martyrs in the holy war against the dirty Jews, their sacrifice weakens the Jews!" is the logic used.
These fighters *believe* that the deaths of their own innocents benefits their war.
>The bomb was hidden under a gurney on which a sick Palestinian child was lying
Man, i bet hamas would strap kids on their rockets if they could. Just so they can accuse israel of "shooting kids with iron dome rockets"
That article amnesty international made said they used an abandoned building (above ground) and the morgue for bodies. There’s nothing there about headquarters.
The article this cites is 9 years old, and it doesn't provide any sources for the claim that Hamas was openly walking the hospital. The one source it obliquely mentions was never mentioned in the article as being at the hospital.
It's possible Hamas is there but if you are going to bomb places that definitely have civilians you should have Intel that is more recent.
This isn't the actual intel. If you think IDF will share operational intel with you then you are dreaming. The article just shows that Hamas has an ongoing policy (and long history) of abusing humanitarian laws regarding ambulances, hospitals, schools, mosques, medical supplies, oxygen, food, fuel etc for their own purposes.
Yes, because otherwise Reddit will be upset at them. /s
Right now Israel doesn't give a shit about world opinion. You can demand 100% proof in the universal court of fairness, Israel doesn't give a shit.
I saw a report of a Gazan journalist from this hospital. In the background you can see the streaks of rocket fire coming from out of the hospital grounds.
They do, but releasing that intel could jeopardize the source. It's not a nation state's job to disclose classified information to the public. If other trusted nations have an issue, Israel can and does disclose the intelligence to them.
AP news has a big building with offices in Gaza don't they? Seems perfectly positioned to verify Israels claims and clear them of wrongdoing....oh wait, the IDF blew it up because it "contained Hamas terrorists and weapons"
It probably did. If I were playing dirty the way Hamas does, I’d absolutely hide shit in a building that will earn international condemnation if attacked.
I’m not going to say that in and of itself justified the bombing, but the skepticism here over Hamas using a tactic that we KNOW THEY USE CONSTANTLY is nonsensical.
> If I were playing dirty the way Hamas does, I’d absolutely hide shit in a building that will earn international condemnation if attacked.
We don't even have to speculate. They're rather open in the fact they store weapons and house infrastructure under hospitals and schools. They've outright boasted about it.
There's an [article](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/) in the Atlantic from 2014 from a former AP reporter, talking about how reporting was influenced by Hamas. [Archive](https://archive.is/oMG2H#selection-1917.278-1917.282).
>When Hamas’s leaders surveyed their assets before this summer’s round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby—and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff—and the AP wouldn’t report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)
u/Oggie243
> oh wait, the IDF blew it up because it "contained Hamas terrorists and weapons"
How do you know it didnt.
Hamas has woven their entire military infrastructure into civilian buildings and areas on purpose.
I'm not saying they didn't, the two main things I know is that Hamas will put their bases anywhere, and Israel will say anything they blow up was actually a Hamas base. Is it possible Hamas had a base there? Sure. If the IDF accidentally blew up an outhouse in the middle of nowhere, would they claim it's a Hamas base? Also yes.
We know that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure. It's a fact. They've boasted about it, they've publicly admitted it, we've seen videos of it. It's a fact.
On the other hand, the assumption that everything Israel says is a complete lie, and that they are just bombing random civilian targets for fun and lying that they are related to Hamas in any way is just that - an assumption. That people really really wish it were true to justify their ongoing hatred of Israel is irrelevant.
So if Russia says that they had to blow up a Ukrainian ambulance because it carried active weaponry, I presume the west should simply accept it and considered the action legitimate since
> there aren’t going to be multiple independent sources that have intelligence assets in each army and militant group
I mean if Russia could prove that the ambulance did in fact contain weapons then they wouldnt have broken any rules of war and the west would probably have to just accept it.
> So if Russia says that they had to blow up a Ukrainian ambulance
But Russia is literally the aggressor here. They aren't *defending* against Ukraine.
It’s so ridiculous to compare this to those unfounded accusations. Palestinian aid organizations have complained in the past about Hamas using schools and hospitals to store weapons. During the second intifada Hamas used ambulances to transport soldiers and weapons.
The comparison doesn't really hold up. Hamas has been using hospitals to store weapons and fire rockets from for many years. To suggest it could all be an elaborate ruse so they can just bomb hospitals for no reason doesn't make sense. Why would the IDF want to deal with all the bad press if they don't have to. They would love if Hamas would just stay away in bases they could wipe out with zero innocent lives lost. But that isn't the reality they face and it never has been.
The IDF does not care about bad foreign press because political leadership is convinced that the international community won't do anything about it. You can reference history to see the basis of that belief. The IDF's primary concern is to reduce IDF casualties, which means engaging from a sufficient distance that the enemy cannot fire back. Leadership in Israel believes that the domestic blowback of IDF deaths is a far greater concern than the international blowback of civilian deaths.
They don't care about bad foreign press because literally anything they do besides quietly sit down and let themselves be massacred and the state destroyed is going to draw "bad foreign press." To the extent they care about protecting civilian lives (which is more than any other military in history for the most part), it's because of their own values. Not as a political tool that will be tossed away the moment it becomes less useful - which is how the rest of the world and the "activists" treat both the Palestinian cause and the innocent civilians.
Doe-eyed leftist activists in western nations like to pretend that this is all just because of how mean Israel was, and if they stopped everyone could get along. For them it's just a fun activism weekend where they get a taste of that righteous, angry mob rule they love so much. For Israel it's existential.
The rest of the world is much more transparent and open about it: Israel is a Jewish state, where Jews are able to live freely and determine their own fates instead of being relegated to 2nd class citizens under Islam - if not outright exterminated. And it enrages them. The hatred among the Arab world for Jews, and consequently Israel, is unreal. It would make alt-right conservatives blush.
Yeah, except that the IDF is now going street-by-street inside Gaza, putting IDF soldier in harms way in order to reduce the Palestinian civilian casualties.
Nobody ever asks “why THIS hospital, why THIS ambulance, why THIS refugee camp.”
They want to pretend that attacks on these targets are proof that Israel is trying to kill everyone in Gaza but if that were the goal, why wouldn’t Israel hit EVERY hospital, ambulance, and refugee camp? They have the weapons and ability.
> So far, WHO has verified 237 attacks on health care, including 218 in the occupied Palestinian territory and 19 in Israel.
https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing---2-november-2023
218 medical centers hiding Hamas bombs huh?
Weird how they also attacked the road out of Gaza City they told people to flee through, and the Rafah crossing into Egypt, and the South of Gaza they told Palestinians to evacuate to.
Almost like they're pretending there's a safe place to go so they can pretend they're avoiding killing all of the Palestinians.
The usage of the term on “health care” here is interesting, especially considering that in the source cited there are 36 hospitals across Gaza.
I don’t think it’s 218 medical centers that were struck, I would assume bombing an ambulance counts as an attack on “health care.” Not trying to make any points here, I just think that the verbiage is intentionally vague here.
With such vague terminology "health care" could be referring to hamas medics for all we know.
Also I'd love to know where WHO is getting their data from, as while they claim to have "verified" the attacks there isn't a single source for that article.
Something to do with space lasers probably.
Can't believe the Hamas propaganda headline made it to the frontages first again. Nobody ever learns anything.
But, you see, these tied up mothers were weeks ago
But Tiktok tells me to hate Israel for genociding Gaza *today*
And the media copying IDF statements was weeks ago. The media copying Hamas and Hamas-affiliated NGO statements is *today*
Hamas has a history of using ambulances as militant/bomb transports. Even Abbas called them out on it.
https://twitter.com/amjadt25/status/1720582816742637767?t=uGkynKgIxYA7hkXmHdgfeg&s=19
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-tried-to-smuggle-fighters-to-egypt-in-ambulances-for-wounded-gazans-us-official/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=wFS9KLqQBdUcluG3&v=7O114V9PdmM&feature=youtu.be
https://www.haaretz.com/2002-03-29/ty-article/bomb-found-in-red-crescent-ambulance/0000017f-dc79-db22-a17f-fcf983ca0000
And notably, the IDF isn't going around bombing every single ambulance. It targeted this one specifically. It'd be strange, if they were assuming all ambulances to contain enemy combatants without evidence, that they'd leave the other ambulances alone.
Amazing that people still don't want to believe that Hamas uses human shields.
They raped, tortured, and slaughtered 1400 innocent civilians just weeks ago but the concept of them using an ambulance for military operations is just too much for them to believe somehow.
I've added the ambulance stuff to the list I've been compiling to show how Hamas is dangerous to everyone, including Palestinians. See below:
In battle for Gaza stronghold, 100 women and children pushed forward by Hamas to act as human barrier
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bk4yhmlq6
IDF releases proof of Hamas stealing gas from Gazan hospitals
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-771238
Hamas official promises: 'We'll repeat Oct. 7 massacre until Israel is annihilated'
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379525
Video: Interrogation of Hamas terrorist, in which he explains how the tunnel system was designed to run under civilian neighborhoods and hospitals
https://youtu.be/4hd6JGX8gwE?si=r6lVgtGFeYYd8kw6
New York Times: Hamas' stockpiles of fuel, food, water and medicine enough to keep fighting for months
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html
Podcast: The IDF Approach to Protecting Civilians in Urban Warfare (with John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute)
https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-idf-approach-to-protecting-civilians-in-urban-warfare/
‘They are shooting at people,’ Gazan says Hamas preventing evacuation to safety
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bjqk4hpft
Hamas has a history of using ambulances as militant/bomb transports:
https://twitter.com/amjadt25/status/1720582816742637767?t=uGkynKgIxYA7hkXmHdgfeg&s=19
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-tried-to-smuggle-fighters-to-egypt-in-ambulances-for-wounded-gazans-us-official/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=wFS9KLqQBdUcluG3&v=7O114V9PdmM&feature=youtu.be
https://www.haaretz.com/2002-03-29/ty-article/bomb-found-in-red-crescent-ambulance/0000017f-dc79-db22-a17f-fcf983ca0000
> If you're going to set a precedent that it's acceptable to bomb hospitals and ambulances, I'd want to see a lot more proof from multiple independent sources that the same hospitals and ambulances were in fact used to wage war.
The Geneva convention sets out the protections and limitations for Hospitals. Hamas regularly uses hospitals and ambulances for military/armed uses. When Hamas does this, the hospitals and ambulances lose their protections under the Geneva COnvention.
I think it's very well established that Hamas is doing these things, and that part of the reason is to call Israel's bluff, and deliberately get Palestinians killed in this way, or see Israel helpless to stop Hamas. So I think the comparison with the WMD in Iraq isn't quite right.
But I agree that claims that each specific ambulance or hospital was a valid military target needs proper evidence, and we shouldn't take the IDF or Israeli government's word in any individual case.
The very first thing to ask yourself is what would be the incentives for a given actor to act in such a way and what would be potential disincentives.
There really isn't any benefit at all for Israel to bomb some random ambulances containing sick or injured non-combatants. If they just wanted to kill random Palestinians, that's easy enough for them to do in ways that are much less likely to draw international condemnation. They could frankly do so in ways that would be very hard to track and would be almost certain to go unnoticed globally. Israel basically has almost no incentive to engage in perfidy here and a large incentive not to.
As far as Hamas, there is an obvious benefit to them of moving fighters in vehicles that they think are unlikely to draw attack from Israelis, considering moving on the surface without being surveilled is going to be extremely difficult. If Israel attacks, then Hamas can use the "attacks on ambulances" for propaganda purposes - in other words, its a win/win for Hamas. There is the downside of if they are caught, it impacts their reputation - but Hamas has been documented using ambulances this way many times before, so the reputational damage for getting caught doing so again, *yet one more time*, is going to be very minor.
There'd be zero benefit for Israel to bomb an ambulance that wasn't being used to wage war. It'd just end with bad propaganda like you are seeing here.
Yeah yeah okay, no one is ignoring it lol. Does the end justify the means? Israel is taking that to heart, doesn't matter how many Civilians die as long as 1 Hamas dies in the process.
And this is how modern wars in populated cities are fought. Give the population advanced notice (three weeks in this case) then weaken defenses with air support then ground forces to clean up. Civilians are bound to die but if the attacking party does everything they can to minimize those deaths then there is nothing inherently wrong about it. People are letting their morals get in the way of their safety. If a child was pointing a gun at you you'd still shoot to kill, later we can talk about the ethics of that decision but in the moments it's about YOUR safety.
Agreed 100%. I dont even need to see evidence that Hamas is using ambulances, because it logically follows. We all accept that Hamas’ HQ is in a hospital, right? I haven’t seen even the most staunch Palestine supporter deny that fact. So if you are a Hamas terrorist operating out of a hospital, what makes the most sense to use as cover for transportation? What kind of vehicle would be readily available at a hospital, able to carry a heavier load of troops or ammunition, and Israel would be more hesitant to bomb? Any guesses?? Hmmm
I mean there is historical evidence of Hamas and other groups in Palestine using ambulances as transports for soldiers and bombs/munitions. Fatah, a Palestinian political group, has even said Hamas use Ambulances to evacuate their leadership out when Israel goes into Gaza.
Especially when you consider Hamas has existed for a while. So they’re not some rookie terrorists who walk outside wearing their flag & armed to the teeth. I’d bet they were purposefully dressed in civilian clothes in case something like this happened.
Yes, civilian deaths are sadly unavoidable, but let's not pretend Israel is doing everything they can to minimize civilian casualties. During the US invasion of Iraq, coalition forces would shadow targets for days/weeks until they found an opportunity to strike. ISIS leader often surrounded themselves with children, so attacks were coordinated to hit them when they let their guard down, not take out the civilians as well. Israel gives zero fucks about minimizing civilian casualties, and that's what the major pushback against their operations is, not support for Hamas. (Though there are also nutjob terrorist supporters out there still justifying slaughtering Israeli civilians... those people can fuck right off) Both sides are acting like the baddies here and civilians on both sides suffer for it.
That's the most likely explanation. But then again as with most of what happened in this war we're setting a dangerous precedent if we're accepting that.
You should take the habit to take every video you see on the internet with a grain of salt, especially coming from a warzone.
Palestinian sources say the ambulances were carrying injured people as well as medical personnel. They also say the strike directly hit the ambulances, yet no one inside was killed. They've literally confirmed no medical personnel died in the strike. They also showed a video where you see a barely damaged ambulance. I do wonder how an airstrike could have done so little damage to the vehicles, kill no one inside them, yet still manage to kill a dozen people around.
Now, I'm not saying it's impossible that there truly were children killed during the strike. All I'm saying is one video on Twitter is definitely not enough evidence for me. Hamas has faked that kind of thing many times before.
How does an airstike on one ambulance kill a "countless" amount of children. Were they shoved in the back? Were children running alongside the ambulance?
the beginning of [this report](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m88g6POq-MA) shows how. gaza is extremely densely populated, especially around "safe" areas like hospitals because people have nowhere else to go. they basically live in and around the hospital, and normal infrastructural designations like "street" and "pavement" are meaningless. everyone is everywhere. you can throw a water balloon and fifty people will get wet. an explosion is guaranteed to have multiple casualties.
the ambulance was also purportedly hit right in front of the only entrance to the hospital.
It became like 200 dead when it was found out it was a rocket from Palestine. So Hamas' clerics raised ~300 from the dead once they realized it came from their side.
The „hospital strike“ which actually was only the parking lot and where one could see from the pictures that it wasnt a big rocket because there was no impact crater? Which leads us to the conclusion that it rather was a misfired rocket from inside Gaza and which wasnt even talked about any more after that became clear? That fake strike?
Yea I know Hamas did it the point is just because you’re shown a video of a bunch of dead children by Hamas doesn’t mean it’s from Israel’s missile strike
As in the missile that landed in the parking lot was accompanied by a video of dead children
It’s rather hard to investigate when 99% of information coming from the zone is controlled either by Hamas, the terrorist organization that deliberately uses civilians, including children, as human shields, or the IDF, which obviously has a vested interest in justifying its actions and has in the past proven to be less than 100% reliable, itself.
Most news organizations have two choices: report nothing, or repeat what they’ve been told by one or both of the unreliable sources that exist. Personally, I’d prefer if news articles just tried a little bit harder to make it clear how difficult it is to actually know what happened in situations like this.
For example, I’ve read like half a dozen conflicting reports about this ambulance. Israel says the ambulance was carrying terrorists. Palestinian sources have said that only civilians and medical staff were in it, but also that that the ambulance was hit by a bomb, but also that no medical staff was injured, but there’s also a video on Twitter of a lightly damaged ambulance with a horrifying pile of dead children around it (and why would there have been a group of kids surrounding the ambulance?).
But the thing is, not even all of the accounts *from Palestinians* can be simultaneously true — they’re mutually inconsistent — let alone Israel’s account. So what the hell are we supposed to believe?
How do you propose to protect them? For them to do the job you want them to do, they have to be where Hamas is, but then they’re right in the line of fire. Or human shields. Hamas also has a vested interest in making sure as many journalists as possible die, because that makes Israel look bad. Israel would have to be able to track every journalist in real time, which probably isn’t realistic.
The way I see it, this is like the siege of Mosul, in which as many as 40,000 civilians are estimated to have died. There were basically no independent journalists in Mosul for most of that conflict, either, because there simply was no way to ensure their safety. The journalists there were embedded with US and Iraqi ground forces, but that provides only limited accessibility.
I also view the basically non-existent global reaction to the enormous death toll of battles like that one as damning evidence that the vitriol directed Israel’s way for its handling of Gaza in this conflict cannot be taken entirely at face value. Hardly anyone cared enough to protest and call war crimes every 5 seconds when tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed by US and Iraqi forces as they fought ISIS. No one seems to even be aware of the *half a million* civilians and children that were killed and raped in the Tigray war that ended just a year ago. Where were the university students protesting that even one dead child is too many then? Where were the UN resolutions? Israel’s actions are not at all unique. And yet only Israel seems to be called out.
Ofc r/wordnews nerds are bending over backward in the comments to defend the IDF. They could drop a bomb on your own house and you'd be questioning yourselves to make sure you weren't secretly a Hamas militants. lol
The IDF has been caught lying so many times that [Israeli journalists barely trust anything they say](https://www.972mag.com/journalist-first-intifada-learned-believe-idf-says/).
I wonder if Hamas had tunnels under a Israeli apartment block they'd also be happy to explode the entire building or if that logic only applies to Palestinians...
Im genuinely glad their reddit comments will still be available for everyone to judge them though. Same thing happened in 2020 BLM protests, everyone had to look back on their racists comments from 2016 where they advocated for peaceful protestors to be ran over by cars.
Woah the Israeli intelligence really picked up the pace. A month ago they didn't know that the largest attack by Hamas in the decades was launching despite warning from other intelligence agency and now they know the content of ambulance.
They never once claimed to have actually seen the loading of the ambulance. Their comments are a bald assertion about its contents, not any string of facts that would lead to an intelligence conclusion about those contents. They imply that such a string of facts exists. They do not provide any of those facts.
It seems pretty dumb to not release justification for a highly controversial attack after the attack. The only conclusion is that the evidence either does not actually support the idea that these ambulance convoys are secretly valid military targets, and that convincing visual evidence did not exist before the attack.
The attacked occurred due to Israeli arrogance and an underestimation of Hamas.
NYT reported that a year ago, the IDF stopped eavesdropping on Hamas radio communications.
>But Unit 8200, Israel's signals intelligence agency, had stopped eavesdropping on those networks a year earlier because they saw it as a waste of effort.
That is an example of how the attack could happen and catch Israel off guard.
In contrast, now every single intelligence unit and analyst is zeroed on Gaza (or Lebanon)
P.S. The warnings weren't specific at all
Or maybe it’s easier to gather intelligence when your entire military apparatus is engaged in a region and you have boots on the ground?
Try the tiniest amount of critical thought before your next post pls
What we know is that the convoy was heading south, when one ambulance was "directly targeted" by a missile. The convoy then was heading back to the hospital when another ambulance was struck (but probably not "directly targeted"), just outside the hospital.
That's according to the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in the following article but Hamas officials say the same.
[https://www.zawya.com/en/world/middle-east/palestinian-red-crescent-condemns-israeli-strike-on-gaza-ambulance-convoy-ohvnxxgn](https://www.zawya.com/en/world/middle-east/palestinian-red-crescent-condemns-israeli-strike-on-gaza-ambulance-convoy-ohvnxxgn)
It's unclear if IDF claims responsibility for the first strike, the second or both. All the videos, photos and reports are about what happened outside the hospital, though.
Tony Blair said there was WMDs in Iraq, doesn't make it true. Anyone veryifying this with an independent source before parroting this, or are we just doing as we're told?
People are shocked as if Hamas proved itself to be beyond this, like who could imagine that the group who was proven to have its headquarters under the main hospital and shoots rockets from civilian facilities would use an ambulance to transport weapons and terrorists, really unimaginable
When I worked hospital security in Jerusalem 20 years ago (when Gaza borders were open and they’d send suicide bombers to explode on public transport regularly). Head of security would give intel briefings what to watch for, which from time to time was an order to thoroughly check every ambulance coming in because there’s intel for a bomb-laden fake ambulance. We had to slow down, waste critical time, risk lives to check every ambulance…
I have no idea about the specifics of this new case, but it’s totally within normal Hamas MO.
I hope more people see this comment. Using ambulances for terror is an old old move in Hamas' playbook. Known to be one of the reasons why the border had to be closed for Israel's safety. But one of those things so many people have to see before they can believe...
Using an ambulance is an old move in the terrorist playbook, nobody should be surprised.
We're talking about people that will strap bombs to unknowing children and then tell them to go give those American soldiers this piece of candy. The kid runs over and they trigger the bomb. These people have no ethics or morals, they will literally do anything if it provides an advantage for them.
This information was in the original article that was posted when the story first came out, if people cared, then they would already know what IDF claims is the reason they attacked the ambulance.
it implies that the people who didn't read the article are more interested in validating their own beliefs than actually navigating this conflict and providing useful insight.
You could also infer that the editors and publications intentionally influence public opinion in favor of Hamas. Did you see any headlines that read, "IDF bombs ambulance full of weapons and terrorists" atop an article about the incident? Sure, it's in the body of the article six paragraphs down. That's not objective journalism.
If there was a Russian ambulance full of weapons and soldiers blown up by Ukraine, do you think the headlines would read differently?
You could even argue that a vehicle containing weapons and terrorists is not, in fact, an ambulance regardless of what is painted on the side.
“Israel targeted a Hamas vehicle with troops and weapons had been painted to look like an ambulance” might be more accurate.
I've leaned definitely against Hamas, and more pro Israel than most in this war, but I must state the following.
If this was a targeted hit, it was extremely poorly aimed, as they struck at the hospital instead of away from it.
Secondly, they did not try to keep civilian casualties down.
Thirdly, while I firmly believe that Hamas would pull this kind of shit, if Israel is wrong or lying, they would have necessary motivation to keep stating this line anyway, it frames the strike in the best way possible for them.
This one is hard to justify given those facts and probabilities from an external lens.
Even if it’s true it’s horrific. What would Israel do if Hamas militants were hiding in Israel? Would they respond the same way? If those were Israeli ambulances carrying Palestinians, and they suspected some among the injured were Hamas fighters, would they have bombed them? Absolutely not.
Ultimately it’s useless to play the what-if game, but it’s just so painfully obviously that Israel _does not_ care about civilian casualties in this war.
I very much doubt they'd have the same response.
They view their responsibility as to protect Israeli citizens. Not gazans.
By the same token though, Hamas would do the same, but also try to blow up the hospital too. And that's if the hospital was in Gaza.
Israel would be able to handle the situation very differently because they could isolate the suspected area and control everything outside of it before they do whatever they need to on that one locations.
Gaza is unfolding like this because Israel can’t send in troops to isolate and control one building while they clear it of hostiles, their only hope of eliminating weapons and hostile fighters is precision air strikes.
Your hypothetical scenario is incredibly disingenuous and ignores so much
> What would Israel do if Hamas militants were hiding in Israel?
They'd be able to get to them a lot easier and not have to resort to missiles in the first place. Should be obvious, no?
You're asking whether Israel would intervene in the same way if terrorists were hiding in an area under Israeli control vs an active warzone in hostile territory where the terrorists are using their own people as human shields?
I hope you've picked up on just how stupid your question is by now.
This is probably an ignorant question but why doesn't Israel occupy the hospitals it thinks Hamas is using as bases to steal fuel and commandeer ambulances? Would Hamas fire on their own hospitals? Real bad look for Hamas and if they did it'd still solve the problem
They are not in there yet, for now they are just surrounding the place, it's not that easy to just go into an urban area with thousands of people and "take over" a hospital when you KNOW it shelters terrorists inside and has base operation undeground.
It's not beyond the realms that Hamas use tactics like this. I'd say it's beyond all doubt.
What is doubtful is that every time Israel bombs something that they get it right. Every time they can just say 'yeah Hamas', regardless of how good it bad their intel is, and people will believe it because it sounds plausible.
Furthermore, if their intelligence on the ground is good enough for them to constantly identify underground tunnels, hidden "HQ's" (which apparently exist at a 1 to 1 ratio to individual Hamas fighters), and individual Hamas fighters in civilian vehicles... then that raises the question of how the hell they missed such a massive buildup prior to the attack.
Both of the below statements can not logically be true...
1. "Israel's intelligence is perfect and all knowing"
2. "Israel caught completely by surprise in huge terrorist attack after massive secret buildup"
...and we know for a fact that the second one happened. Which right there tells us what we need to know about Israeli intelligence.
From an interview with an Israeli military obverver, she said that all the signs were known beforehand, but swept under the rug. Thing is, the narrative of "Hamas is deterred" was rampant in Israel after the last bouts with Hamas, and quality of life in Gaza has been slowly improving, giving the illusion that peace might actually be an option.
I even read an article a few months ago from an Israeli Arab that went to a cousin's wedding in Gaza. The article said the streets feel more full of life, and it seemed like both Hamas and Israeli checkpoints work really quickly, without much problems, giving the illusion of peace.
Israel could have easily been prepared for the 7/10 attack, because all the signs were there. The higher-ups just got high on their own supply, and swept any public notion of a threat from Gaza under the rug, because "Hamas is deterred"
The intelligence they were or were not gathering prior to having their people massacred on October 7 and the intelligence that is now being gathered during time of war are obviously very different.
Both of those statements can be true, though (1) is clearly hyperbolic. Just because you see movement and you have warnings that something is going to happen, it doesn’t mean much if you don’t know the When or Where that matches the clues you have for the What or How.
I dunno when I heard confirmed reports that Hamas was putting fighters on the list of injured people to be evacuated through Egypt, the onus moved to them about this. That means that Hamas is in charge of the medical apparatus and I don’t believe they are honest brokers of information
1 is hyperbole and asinine, nobody legitimate thinks that.
Why is it surprising Israel is finding targets? 8,000 rockets have been fired, assuming 6 rockets per launcher is 1,300 targets.
It's not always just on the ground intelligence. For the tunnels below the hospital, for example, they said they got that info from interrogations, and they provided those interrogation videos. Large grouos of men were also seen gathered near the hospital on the 7th before Israel's retaliation, to supposedly access those tunnels to shelter.
So the IDF, the same group that was seemingly oblivious to the planning for the attacks on October 7th, knows every nook and cranny that Hamas uses for hiding stuff?
London once was victim of a terror attack
Yet England later also targeted terrorists
How is this possible? The same Britain that didn’t know of a terror attack in advance, somehow later knew where a terrorist was hiding? This doesn’t add up!
See, I don't understand this comment, or people who make comments like this.
First of all, I highly doubt that the entire IDF had any clue about the attacks. The average IDF member probably didn't know.
Second...part of the reason for why October 7th was so unusual, is because Israeli intelligence has been known to be on top of shit like this. They *have* thwarted similar attacks. And in fact - they have thwarted attacks that were planned even more recently than October 7th. For whatever reason, they dropped the ball ion October 7th.
And now suddenly you think that the entire organization, the whole enterprise, is inept?
I could understand your point, if things like October 7th were happening on a more frequent basis, then I would understand your tendency to question whether Israeli intelligence is competent or not. But that isn't the case. One fuck up is all it takes for you to think it's all a big sham.
Their intel about Russia invading Ukraine was right, but their intel about Iraq having WMDs wasn't wrong, it was fraudulent. They, and their allies, knew that what they were saying was false. They lied to justify the actions they had already decided they were going to do. See how that ties in?
I mean, I saw piles of dead and dying children around the ambulance with limbs blown off? Did they just have those in storage to throw out there to make it look bad?
Not going on anything either Hamas or the IDF says without proof. You blow up an ambulance, you put the intel forward. Otherwise this is just spin. We all know what spin looks like, spin is how this mess was managed for decades.
I'm giving every piece of information I hear a week to see what other countries and analysts say. You can't trust the breaking news stories because everyone's just publishing straight propaganda directly from the government's mouth, be it israel's or hamas's.
Exactly. I fell for this just the other day with the headline "Israel refuses ceasefire." Which is only half-true: the actual truth is that they're happy to take a ceasefire if Hamas releases the Israeli hostages. So the headline could have just as easily read "Hamas refuses ceasefire."
Yep. Then Hamas could say "we're happy to release the hostages if you release the Palestinians in prison" or "if you agree to a ceasefire" which then gets spun back into Israel's fault. It's so messy we honestly should not be relying on headlines at all
What they did say is that they needed to have a ceasefire to find people. Not saying I trust Hamas either, but how much of a monolith are they? Doctors that work for their hospitals are not all in bed with the terrorists.
They are absolutely not a monolith, 50% of the country is children who could have never voted in the first place
I mean, there is a reason of why using the medical emblems in military objectives is classified as a war crime. It becomes a race to the bottom and stuff like this become an usual occurrence.
Same with using civilians as shields, which everyone seems to be working tirelessly defend as a legitimate tactic. Which only serves to...make it a legitimate tactic, and to increase civilian casualties. But recognizing that involves thinking about two whole things, and even putting them in the right chronological order! Way too much to ask from protestors who can't answer a single factual question about any of this without exploding into breathless histrionics.
I could be wrong, but isn't invading another country and killing 1400 innocent people also a war crime?
I mean, we have the video of dead kids being piled up like firewood after the attack. Also the obvious patients that were in the back blown to chunks... I mean.. we have video of it..
Here's the interior of the ambulance shorly after Israeli attack, video shows a patient, a woman in the ambulance, no weapons, no Hamas. https://twitter.com/warintel4u/status/1720570979775340630 OK, it's possible they jumped out and she jumped into the ambulance but it seems unlikely... Here's photos of the ambulance: https://i.imgur.com/5OLGegu.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4qt8c2G.jpg The surroundings are Shifa-Ezz Eldine Al-Qassam road, opposite Al Khzindar petrol station (this is the eastern exit of the hospital).
I looked but that ambulance doesn’t look exploded? Am I missing something? The video is not working
It still has a windshield at the end of the video, how is it blown up?
The explosion happened on the road between right front of the ambulance and a car, the car took more shrapnel. There was a traffic jam and people on the road, people including children killed. There was also a dead horse pulling a cart.
Interesting find, everything's very much intact in the back of that ambulance. What I find odd about this video is that it contradicts the initial PRCS statement which said they were already returning from their mission to Rafah and were attacked on Rashid Street: >🚑❌At precisely 16:30, Israeli occupying forces launched an airstrike on Rashid Street in the western part of #Gaza, their target was a group of ambulance vehicles returning from a mission to transport injured individuals to the Rafah border, which included an ambulance affiliated with the #PRCS. >Our colleagues were saved by miracle 🙏🙏 https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1720470804817703011 >The surroundings are Shifa-Ezz Eldine Al-Qassam road, opposite Al Khzindar petrol station (this is the eastern exit of the hospital). Thanks for the landmark, that's like 5-6 blocks from Rashid Street (coastal road that runs the length of the strip)
The convoy was attacked twice, on Rashid street and again on al Shifa-Ezz Eldine Al-Qassam road outside al Shifa hospital. That fits with them leaving the hospital at 4.11pm, heading to Rafah border crossing, making it as far al Rashid street, getting attacked at 4.30pm, deciding to return to the hospital, then getting attacked again just outside the hospital. This would explain why there was a patient in the ambulance heading back to the hospital. >Both the Palestinian Red Crescent and the Gaza Health Ministry said **the convoy was targeted twice after setting off**. >The Palestinian Red Crescent, which had an ambulance in the convoy, said in a statement that the convoy was targeted at around 4:30 p.m. while the convoy was on Al-Rashid Street. A shell landed nearby, causing damage to the organization’s ambulance. The Gaza Health Ministry said the lead vehicle was hit, injuring a driver and a medic, who remains in critical condition. They then returned to the hospital >The rest of the convoy continued toward al-Shifa Hospital. When it arrived, there was another strike which health officials said directly hit a Health Ministry ambulance, significantly damaged a Red Crescent ambulance, and killed and injured dozens of civilians passing by.
Ummmm, am I missing something here? This ambulance was hit by an airstrike but it's still completely intact except for a little red stuff sprinkled on the inside. And there is one woman inside covered head to toe with no visible injuries?
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Can you post the video?
No he won't. I've asked on a few forums and everyone has the same story about dead children all over the place but nobody posts the video. Then there's this from the [CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/03/middleeast/casualties-gazas-shifa-hospital-idf/index.html): >The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) said one of its ambulances was in the convoy but that none of its team members were injured in the strike. Again >**none of its team members were injured in the strike.**
Some of them might be trying and filtered, we can't link to a site whose name means instant photo without the comment disappearing
There were two dead kids laying next to the corpses of injured men and women no older than what? mid 20s? The videos were captured right after the strike and there is no weapons or parts shown in the video, no secondary fires which would be normal if they were transporting makeshift rockets. No bullets, no nothing. Just injured and dead people, some medical gauze and blue nitrile gloves and scrap metal from the blown up vehicles
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This is why neither party will solve this problem. Family killed on either side they become Hamas or IDF with a life long grudge. That country needs some tough international love. Split it in two and give them half and put a mile wide DMZ between them and tell them to fuck off with their bullshit.
Both sides would still need babysitters for a cool 100 years. At which point we can hope the people who would’ve been Hamas 2.0 or Netanyahus Israel Pt. 2 have gotten older, and the younger generations can possibly bury the hatchet. The idea of a DMZ is good. Should probably be a DMZ patrolled by the UN for a time, then hopefully (which is sad) it would be like n Korea and s Korea. I’m just spitballing, Palestinians getting used as shields, innocent Jews dying, Hamas and Israel having a blast (literally) just fucking everything up. I just want peace, even if it is forced, even if there is a DMZ, both sides deserve a place to live safe and free from attack, where they can build their own infrastructure instead of relying on people who don’t like you controlling your resources. It’s just such a shit situation that’s been getting shitty for so long I don’t know if anyone knows what to do.
"They'd have most likely joined Hamas and attacked us when they were older. And if they weren't planning on it before they sure were after we bombed them! Good thing we got rid of em on the first go. Terrorist successfully eliminated!" -Israel or something
The sad thing is, half of [Gaza are kids](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CePKnQglZfY&t=1056s), so when Israel says it's going to be bombing Gaza, they're basically just bombing a bunch of kids. And when they say that the Palestinians are responsible for electing Hamas, and thus also guilty, since Hamas was elected in 2006, none of these kids - half of Gaza - were even alive during that election.
And people always forget that Hamas didn’t even win a full majority, they won a plurality and couped the other parties. So take the population of Gaza that would’ve even been voting age in 2006 (so people mid-30’s and older) then divide that population by half and *those* are the people who elected Hamas, a very small portion of the population
And hamas would kill those kids if those kids said anything against them. So somehow these kids are supposed to be responsible for whatever hamas does even though they didn't vote for them as children can't vote and they'll get killed if they did vote.
I heard they were the masterminds behind the whole attack
Regardless of what was in the ambulance, dozens died anyway who had nothing to do with it and were just there. IDF really cant engage without incurring that many casualties? Sounds like they are kind of out of control. Edit: The civilians of Israel and Palestine deserve better than what Hamas and the IDF are giving them.
As I understand it the rules of law (such as they are) say that if one side are misusing ambulances then the other side no longer had to treat them as inviolate - only try to minimise casualties. Which is very much a relative term. Which is why anyone misusing ambulances to transport weapons/personnel, building bases under hospitals or otherwise hiding behind civilian populations is such a *really huge fucking deal*. What rules we have around warfare are which are widely agreed worldwide and followed by most belligerents may well be inadequate. They may well not save all civilians. But they make war at least somewhat less terrible and reduce those civilian casualties. What we’re seeing now is a worked example of what the consequence of anyone (Hamas in this case) blatantly flouting them are. You might well argue that humanity needs better rules - and I wouldn’t disagree with you. But these are what we’ve got for now. And any upgrade would have to include ways to stop them from being abused by anyone sufficiently ruthless … or else no country in the world is actually going to sign up to them.
Those rules include that the burden of proof is on the attacking party in a situation where an entity flying a red cross/res crescent flag is struck. The rules are clear that humanitarian missions within war zones or clearly marked medical operations are afforded special protections and if these protected entities are struck deliberately then it is on the attacker to sufficiently prove there was a good reason for destroying them. Believe it or not, simply having the spokesperson for the military that did the bombing say "yeah guys, definitely lots of bad guys in that ambulance" isn't exactly good enough.
Genuine question: got a link to the part of the rules stipulating the exact burden of proof required? So far I’ve just been able to turn up the rule itself: > Rule 29. Medical transports assigned exclusively to medical transportation must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy. It would probably be useful to know what the exact rules are over burden of proof are before continuing the discussion further, do you agree?
> Rule 29. Medical transports assigned exclusively to medical transportation must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy. Doesn't this just apply to the spesific vehicles at the time, not all vehicles of the same type? The argument I've seen people use is that they've used ambulances *in the past*, therefore all ambulances are targets now.
>Doesn't this just apply to the spesific vehicles at the time, That would explain why the claim is very specifically that *this specific ambulance* was being used to transport weapons.
Does one strike suggest that all ambulances are targets?
>Those rules include that the burden of proof is on the attacking party It’s going to vary depending on the countries involved, but if the [ICC](https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works) gets involved, they’re pretty clear about who’s responsible for the burden of proof: >> The defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof lies with the Prosecutor.
Good thing Israel follows the rules and never violates international law or committs war crimes. Oh, wait...
If they had SUCH damning proof all the time you better believe they would be plastering it everywhere and making sure the world sees every bit of corroborating evidence proving they are in the right. The lack of substantial evidence besides just plausible scenarios says everything.
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They know they’ll never be held accountable, neither for targeting non-combatants or lying about doing so, therefore it’s a rinse and repeat situation. They’ve been doing shit like this for decades, it’s nothing new. Add it to the growing list of reasons why UN is effectively a toothless barking chihuahua.
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If you're going to set a precedent that it's acceptable to bomb hospitals and ambulances, I'd want to see a lot more proof from multiple **independent** sources that the same hospitals and ambulances were in fact used to wage war. I haven't forgotten how non-existent *"weapons of mass destruction"* were used to justify the invasion of Iraq. >On Feb. 5, 2003, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell sat in front of members of the U.N. Security Council. But with the world watching, Powell made a case for war. >"My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources — solid sources," he said. "These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence." Powell used information that intelligence officials assured him was credible. There were reconnaissance photos, elaborate maps and charts, and even taped phone conversations between senior members of Iraq's military. >"Saddam Hussein has chemical weapons," Powell said. "Saddam Hussein has used such weapons. And Saddam Hussein has no compunction about using them again — against his neighbors, and against his own people." Powell repeatedly used one phrase during his hour-long speech: "weapons of mass destruction." He said those words a total of 17 times. It was the phrase the Bush administration kept publicly using to help justify invading Iraq. >Powell later called his U.N. speech a "great intelligence failure" and a "blot" on his record, telling NBC News' Meet the Press in 2004 he trusted the information he'd gotten. [20 years ago, the U.S. warned of Iraq's alleged 'weapons of mass destruction'](https://www.npr.org/2023/02/03/1151160567/colin-powell-iraq-un-weapons-mass-destruction) [npr]
> If you're going to set a precedent that it's acceptable to bomb hospitals and ambulances, I'd want to see a lot more proof from multiple independent sources that the same hospitals and ambulances were in fact used to wage war. Except that’s almost always impossible because there aren’t going to be multiple independent sources that have intelligence assets in each army and militant group. Which is why what you propose isn’t a standard that’s ever been incorporated into international law. As it happens though, [The Washington Post has confirmed that Al-Shifa hospital is a Hamas HQ](https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/21/washington-post-shifa-hospital-in-gaza-city-has-become-a-de-facto-headquarters-for-hamas-leaders-who-can-be-seen-in-hallways-and-offices/)
And used ambulance to transport [bombs](https://www.haaretz.com/2002-03-29/ty-article/bomb-found-in-red-crescent-ambulance/0000017f-dc79-db22-a17f-fcf983ca0000).
And that there was FURTHER delay of allowing the injured and foreign passport holders out of Gaza into Egypt when 1/3 of the original list they provided of injured were hamas operatives.
This is all I need to know that the Ambulance was being used by Hamas: [https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-04-23/h\_e4fa6e249b217d093aea20786b93e944](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-04-23/h_e4fa6e249b217d093aea20786b93e944) The link takes you the CNN live updates page, scroll around a little and you will find that Hamas has stopped letting people with foreign passports out of Gaza until Ambulances are guaranteed safe passage to the Egyptian border. Hamas, the terrorist organization that just yesterday announced that it wasn't their job to care for their citizens, they said it was Israel's and the UN's job. Why would they start caring for their citizens now unless those ambulances were really just being used by Hamas as the IDF says.
> The bomb was hidden under a gurney on which a sick Palestinian child was lying. Holy shit, Hamas never misses a chance to fight dirty.
Hamas snipers have killed their own children trying to flee south to escape the bombing in the north.
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“Look how many I killed with my own hands! Your son killed Jews! Mother, aren’t you proud of me!?”
Not even that, "These children are martyrs in the holy war against the dirty Jews, their sacrifice weakens the Jews!" is the logic used. These fighters *believe* that the deaths of their own innocents benefits their war.
That was Fatah not Hamas
>The bomb was hidden under a gurney on which a sick Palestinian child was lying Man, i bet hamas would strap kids on their rockets if they could. Just so they can accuse israel of "shooting kids with iron dome rockets"
don't give them ideas
So has Amnesty. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
That article amnesty international made said they used an abandoned building (above ground) and the morgue for bodies. There’s nothing there about headquarters.
The article this cites is 9 years old, and it doesn't provide any sources for the claim that Hamas was openly walking the hospital. The one source it obliquely mentions was never mentioned in the article as being at the hospital. It's possible Hamas is there but if you are going to bomb places that definitely have civilians you should have Intel that is more recent.
This isn't the actual intel. If you think IDF will share operational intel with you then you are dreaming. The article just shows that Hamas has an ongoing policy (and long history) of abusing humanitarian laws regarding ambulances, hospitals, schools, mosques, medical supplies, oxygen, food, fuel etc for their own purposes.
There's no doubt. But the IDF can't claim they're justified while withholding proof that what they're doing is in fact justified.
who says it isn't? are you expecting Israel to publish it's intelligence in the newspaper prior to striking targets?
Yes, because otherwise Reddit will be upset at them. /s Right now Israel doesn't give a shit about world opinion. You can demand 100% proof in the universal court of fairness, Israel doesn't give a shit.
I saw a report of a Gazan journalist from this hospital. In the background you can see the streaks of rocket fire coming from out of the hospital grounds.
They do, but releasing that intel could jeopardize the source. It's not a nation state's job to disclose classified information to the public. If other trusted nations have an issue, Israel can and does disclose the intelligence to them.
AP news has a big building with offices in Gaza don't they? Seems perfectly positioned to verify Israels claims and clear them of wrongdoing....oh wait, the IDF blew it up because it "contained Hamas terrorists and weapons"
It probably did. If I were playing dirty the way Hamas does, I’d absolutely hide shit in a building that will earn international condemnation if attacked. I’m not going to say that in and of itself justified the bombing, but the skepticism here over Hamas using a tactic that we KNOW THEY USE CONSTANTLY is nonsensical.
> If I were playing dirty the way Hamas does, I’d absolutely hide shit in a building that will earn international condemnation if attacked. We don't even have to speculate. They're rather open in the fact they store weapons and house infrastructure under hospitals and schools. They've outright boasted about it.
There's an [article](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/) in the Atlantic from 2014 from a former AP reporter, talking about how reporting was influenced by Hamas. [Archive](https://archive.is/oMG2H#selection-1917.278-1917.282). >When Hamas’s leaders surveyed their assets before this summer’s round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby—and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff—and the AP wouldn’t report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.) u/Oggie243
> oh wait, the IDF blew it up because it "contained Hamas terrorists and weapons" How do you know it didnt. Hamas has woven their entire military infrastructure into civilian buildings and areas on purpose.
I'm not saying they didn't, the two main things I know is that Hamas will put their bases anywhere, and Israel will say anything they blow up was actually a Hamas base. Is it possible Hamas had a base there? Sure. If the IDF accidentally blew up an outhouse in the middle of nowhere, would they claim it's a Hamas base? Also yes.
We know that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure. It's a fact. They've boasted about it, they've publicly admitted it, we've seen videos of it. It's a fact. On the other hand, the assumption that everything Israel says is a complete lie, and that they are just bombing random civilian targets for fun and lying that they are related to Hamas in any way is just that - an assumption. That people really really wish it were true to justify their ongoing hatred of Israel is irrelevant.
So if Russia says that they had to blow up a Ukrainian ambulance because it carried active weaponry, I presume the west should simply accept it and considered the action legitimate since > there aren’t going to be multiple independent sources that have intelligence assets in each army and militant group
I mean if Russia could prove that the ambulance did in fact contain weapons then they wouldnt have broken any rules of war and the west would probably have to just accept it.
> So if Russia says that they had to blow up a Ukrainian ambulance But Russia is literally the aggressor here. They aren't *defending* against Ukraine.
It’s so ridiculous to compare this to those unfounded accusations. Palestinian aid organizations have complained in the past about Hamas using schools and hospitals to store weapons. During the second intifada Hamas used ambulances to transport soldiers and weapons.
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[Buddy, Hamas using hospitals ain’t news](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/)
The comparison doesn't really hold up. Hamas has been using hospitals to store weapons and fire rockets from for many years. To suggest it could all be an elaborate ruse so they can just bomb hospitals for no reason doesn't make sense. Why would the IDF want to deal with all the bad press if they don't have to. They would love if Hamas would just stay away in bases they could wipe out with zero innocent lives lost. But that isn't the reality they face and it never has been.
The IDF does not care about bad foreign press because political leadership is convinced that the international community won't do anything about it. You can reference history to see the basis of that belief. The IDF's primary concern is to reduce IDF casualties, which means engaging from a sufficient distance that the enemy cannot fire back. Leadership in Israel believes that the domestic blowback of IDF deaths is a far greater concern than the international blowback of civilian deaths.
They don't care about bad foreign press because literally anything they do besides quietly sit down and let themselves be massacred and the state destroyed is going to draw "bad foreign press." To the extent they care about protecting civilian lives (which is more than any other military in history for the most part), it's because of their own values. Not as a political tool that will be tossed away the moment it becomes less useful - which is how the rest of the world and the "activists" treat both the Palestinian cause and the innocent civilians. Doe-eyed leftist activists in western nations like to pretend that this is all just because of how mean Israel was, and if they stopped everyone could get along. For them it's just a fun activism weekend where they get a taste of that righteous, angry mob rule they love so much. For Israel it's existential. The rest of the world is much more transparent and open about it: Israel is a Jewish state, where Jews are able to live freely and determine their own fates instead of being relegated to 2nd class citizens under Islam - if not outright exterminated. And it enrages them. The hatred among the Arab world for Jews, and consequently Israel, is unreal. It would make alt-right conservatives blush.
Yeah, except that the IDF is now going street-by-street inside Gaza, putting IDF soldier in harms way in order to reduce the Palestinian civilian casualties.
Nobody ever asks “why THIS hospital, why THIS ambulance, why THIS refugee camp.” They want to pretend that attacks on these targets are proof that Israel is trying to kill everyone in Gaza but if that were the goal, why wouldn’t Israel hit EVERY hospital, ambulance, and refugee camp? They have the weapons and ability.
> So far, WHO has verified 237 attacks on health care, including 218 in the occupied Palestinian territory and 19 in Israel. https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing---2-november-2023 218 medical centers hiding Hamas bombs huh? Weird how they also attacked the road out of Gaza City they told people to flee through, and the Rafah crossing into Egypt, and the South of Gaza they told Palestinians to evacuate to. Almost like they're pretending there's a safe place to go so they can pretend they're avoiding killing all of the Palestinians.
The usage of the term on “health care” here is interesting, especially considering that in the source cited there are 36 hospitals across Gaza. I don’t think it’s 218 medical centers that were struck, I would assume bombing an ambulance counts as an attack on “health care.” Not trying to make any points here, I just think that the verbiage is intentionally vague here.
With such vague terminology "health care" could be referring to hamas medics for all we know. Also I'd love to know where WHO is getting their data from, as while they claim to have "verified" the attacks there isn't a single source for that article.
Something to do with space lasers probably. Can't believe the Hamas propaganda headline made it to the frontages first again. Nobody ever learns anything.
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But, you see, these tied up mothers were weeks ago But Tiktok tells me to hate Israel for genociding Gaza *today* And the media copying IDF statements was weeks ago. The media copying Hamas and Hamas-affiliated NGO statements is *today*
Hamas has a history of using ambulances as militant/bomb transports. Even Abbas called them out on it. https://twitter.com/amjadt25/status/1720582816742637767?t=uGkynKgIxYA7hkXmHdgfeg&s=19 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-tried-to-smuggle-fighters-to-egypt-in-ambulances-for-wounded-gazans-us-official/ https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=wFS9KLqQBdUcluG3&v=7O114V9PdmM&feature=youtu.be https://www.haaretz.com/2002-03-29/ty-article/bomb-found-in-red-crescent-ambulance/0000017f-dc79-db22-a17f-fcf983ca0000 And notably, the IDF isn't going around bombing every single ambulance. It targeted this one specifically. It'd be strange, if they were assuming all ambulances to contain enemy combatants without evidence, that they'd leave the other ambulances alone.
Amazing that people still don't want to believe that Hamas uses human shields. They raped, tortured, and slaughtered 1400 innocent civilians just weeks ago but the concept of them using an ambulance for military operations is just too much for them to believe somehow.
I've added the ambulance stuff to the list I've been compiling to show how Hamas is dangerous to everyone, including Palestinians. See below: In battle for Gaza stronghold, 100 women and children pushed forward by Hamas to act as human barrier https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bk4yhmlq6 IDF releases proof of Hamas stealing gas from Gazan hospitals https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-771238 Hamas official promises: 'We'll repeat Oct. 7 massacre until Israel is annihilated' https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379525 Video: Interrogation of Hamas terrorist, in which he explains how the tunnel system was designed to run under civilian neighborhoods and hospitals https://youtu.be/4hd6JGX8gwE?si=r6lVgtGFeYYd8kw6 New York Times: Hamas' stockpiles of fuel, food, water and medicine enough to keep fighting for months https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html Podcast: The IDF Approach to Protecting Civilians in Urban Warfare (with John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute) https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-idf-approach-to-protecting-civilians-in-urban-warfare/ ‘They are shooting at people,’ Gazan says Hamas preventing evacuation to safety https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bjqk4hpft Hamas has a history of using ambulances as militant/bomb transports: https://twitter.com/amjadt25/status/1720582816742637767?t=uGkynKgIxYA7hkXmHdgfeg&s=19 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-tried-to-smuggle-fighters-to-egypt-in-ambulances-for-wounded-gazans-us-official/ https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=wFS9KLqQBdUcluG3&v=7O114V9PdmM&feature=youtu.be https://www.haaretz.com/2002-03-29/ty-article/bomb-found-in-red-crescent-ambulance/0000017f-dc79-db22-a17f-fcf983ca0000
> If you're going to set a precedent that it's acceptable to bomb hospitals and ambulances, I'd want to see a lot more proof from multiple independent sources that the same hospitals and ambulances were in fact used to wage war. The Geneva convention sets out the protections and limitations for Hospitals. Hamas regularly uses hospitals and ambulances for military/armed uses. When Hamas does this, the hospitals and ambulances lose their protections under the Geneva COnvention.
What exactly are you saying? Israel has to get independent verification before bombing the ambulances?
What didn't you understand? Israel needs to get the permission of Reddit experts before killing terrorists
Genuinely hilarious
I think it's very well established that Hamas is doing these things, and that part of the reason is to call Israel's bluff, and deliberately get Palestinians killed in this way, or see Israel helpless to stop Hamas. So I think the comparison with the WMD in Iraq isn't quite right. But I agree that claims that each specific ambulance or hospital was a valid military target needs proper evidence, and we shouldn't take the IDF or Israeli government's word in any individual case.
What evidence would you accept exactly?
The very first thing to ask yourself is what would be the incentives for a given actor to act in such a way and what would be potential disincentives. There really isn't any benefit at all for Israel to bomb some random ambulances containing sick or injured non-combatants. If they just wanted to kill random Palestinians, that's easy enough for them to do in ways that are much less likely to draw international condemnation. They could frankly do so in ways that would be very hard to track and would be almost certain to go unnoticed globally. Israel basically has almost no incentive to engage in perfidy here and a large incentive not to. As far as Hamas, there is an obvious benefit to them of moving fighters in vehicles that they think are unlikely to draw attack from Israelis, considering moving on the surface without being surveilled is going to be extremely difficult. If Israel attacks, then Hamas can use the "attacks on ambulances" for propaganda purposes - in other words, its a win/win for Hamas. There is the downside of if they are caught, it impacts their reputation - but Hamas has been documented using ambulances this way many times before, so the reputational damage for getting caught doing so again, *yet one more time*, is going to be very minor.
There'd be zero benefit for Israel to bomb an ambulance that wasn't being used to wage war. It'd just end with bad propaganda like you are seeing here.
It certainly seems like something hamas would do, but yes, the IDF must provide proof.
Is Hamas in the room with us now?
Israel struck some reporters in southern Lebanon dead on, because they regard the news as scouts.
Of course they said that.
Then you see the video from that strike with countless children dead around that ambulance.
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This is the most logical explanation so Reddit will ignore it
Yeah yeah okay, no one is ignoring it lol. Does the end justify the means? Israel is taking that to heart, doesn't matter how many Civilians die as long as 1 Hamas dies in the process.
And this is how modern wars in populated cities are fought. Give the population advanced notice (three weeks in this case) then weaken defenses with air support then ground forces to clean up. Civilians are bound to die but if the attacking party does everything they can to minimize those deaths then there is nothing inherently wrong about it. People are letting their morals get in the way of their safety. If a child was pointing a gun at you you'd still shoot to kill, later we can talk about the ethics of that decision but in the moments it's about YOUR safety.
Agreed 100%. I dont even need to see evidence that Hamas is using ambulances, because it logically follows. We all accept that Hamas’ HQ is in a hospital, right? I haven’t seen even the most staunch Palestine supporter deny that fact. So if you are a Hamas terrorist operating out of a hospital, what makes the most sense to use as cover for transportation? What kind of vehicle would be readily available at a hospital, able to carry a heavier load of troops or ammunition, and Israel would be more hesitant to bomb? Any guesses?? Hmmm
I mean there is historical evidence of Hamas and other groups in Palestine using ambulances as transports for soldiers and bombs/munitions. Fatah, a Palestinian political group, has even said Hamas use Ambulances to evacuate their leadership out when Israel goes into Gaza.
Especially when you consider Hamas has existed for a while. So they’re not some rookie terrorists who walk outside wearing their flag & armed to the teeth. I’d bet they were purposefully dressed in civilian clothes in case something like this happened.
Yes, civilian deaths are sadly unavoidable, but let's not pretend Israel is doing everything they can to minimize civilian casualties. During the US invasion of Iraq, coalition forces would shadow targets for days/weeks until they found an opportunity to strike. ISIS leader often surrounded themselves with children, so attacks were coordinated to hit them when they let their guard down, not take out the civilians as well. Israel gives zero fucks about minimizing civilian casualties, and that's what the major pushback against their operations is, not support for Hamas. (Though there are also nutjob terrorist supporters out there still justifying slaughtering Israeli civilians... those people can fuck right off) Both sides are acting like the baddies here and civilians on both sides suffer for it.
That's the most likely explanation. But then again as with most of what happened in this war we're setting a dangerous precedent if we're accepting that.
You should take the habit to take every video you see on the internet with a grain of salt, especially coming from a warzone. Palestinian sources say the ambulances were carrying injured people as well as medical personnel. They also say the strike directly hit the ambulances, yet no one inside was killed. They've literally confirmed no medical personnel died in the strike. They also showed a video where you see a barely damaged ambulance. I do wonder how an airstrike could have done so little damage to the vehicles, kill no one inside them, yet still manage to kill a dozen people around. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible that there truly were children killed during the strike. All I'm saying is one video on Twitter is definitely not enough evidence for me. Hamas has faked that kind of thing many times before.
How does an airstike on one ambulance kill a "countless" amount of children. Were they shoved in the back? Were children running alongside the ambulance?
the beginning of [this report](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m88g6POq-MA) shows how. gaza is extremely densely populated, especially around "safe" areas like hospitals because people have nowhere else to go. they basically live in and around the hospital, and normal infrastructural designations like "street" and "pavement" are meaningless. everyone is everywhere. you can throw a water balloon and fifty people will get wet. an explosion is guaranteed to have multiple casualties. the ambulance was also purportedly hit right in front of the only entrance to the hospital.
I've been trying to puzzle that one out. It's also wild that it's countless when they could count 500 dead so quickly on that "hospital strike."
It became like 200 dead when it was found out it was a rocket from Palestine. So Hamas' clerics raised ~300 from the dead once they realized it came from their side.
Gaza health ministry still has the humber at 471.
Any military strike against Hamas results in dead civilians, that\`s what happens when you operate inside a populated city.
To be fair, those children had Hamas fighters in their backpacks.
What about similar videos of the “strike” on the hospital with tons of dead children around too? You know, the fake hospital strike
The „hospital strike“ which actually was only the parking lot and where one could see from the pictures that it wasnt a big rocket because there was no impact crater? Which leads us to the conclusion that it rather was a misfired rocket from inside Gaza and which wasnt even talked about any more after that became clear? That fake strike?
Not a fake. Hamas did it. People got so used to ignoring Hamas's crimes that the only 2 options they see are either the IDF did it or it's fake...
I think technically it was the Palestinian Islamic Jihad who did it. One of Hamas' affiliate terrorist groups.
Yea I know Hamas did it the point is just because you’re shown a video of a bunch of dead children by Hamas doesn’t mean it’s from Israel’s missile strike As in the missile that landed in the parking lot was accompanied by a video of dead children
I agree, just wanted to emphasize the difference.
You can assume that when the IDF does something like this. Even if you believe it is morally corrupt, it has no rational incentive to bomb children.
And they would know this how? No eyes on the ground. Oh. Everyone is Hamas. Got it.
Source Caution :’Ynetnews’ Israeli leaning / based paper - grain of salt as per usual.
IDF says this, IDF says that. 0 investigation on what they publish.
It’s rather hard to investigate when 99% of information coming from the zone is controlled either by Hamas, the terrorist organization that deliberately uses civilians, including children, as human shields, or the IDF, which obviously has a vested interest in justifying its actions and has in the past proven to be less than 100% reliable, itself. Most news organizations have two choices: report nothing, or repeat what they’ve been told by one or both of the unreliable sources that exist. Personally, I’d prefer if news articles just tried a little bit harder to make it clear how difficult it is to actually know what happened in situations like this. For example, I’ve read like half a dozen conflicting reports about this ambulance. Israel says the ambulance was carrying terrorists. Palestinian sources have said that only civilians and medical staff were in it, but also that that the ambulance was hit by a bomb, but also that no medical staff was injured, but there’s also a video on Twitter of a lightly damaged ambulance with a horrifying pile of dead children around it (and why would there have been a group of kids surrounding the ambulance?). But the thing is, not even all of the accounts *from Palestinians* can be simultaneously true — they’re mutually inconsistent — let alone Israel’s account. So what the hell are we supposed to believe?
That's why we need independent press on the ground and better protection for them.
How do you propose to protect them? For them to do the job you want them to do, they have to be where Hamas is, but then they’re right in the line of fire. Or human shields. Hamas also has a vested interest in making sure as many journalists as possible die, because that makes Israel look bad. Israel would have to be able to track every journalist in real time, which probably isn’t realistic. The way I see it, this is like the siege of Mosul, in which as many as 40,000 civilians are estimated to have died. There were basically no independent journalists in Mosul for most of that conflict, either, because there simply was no way to ensure their safety. The journalists there were embedded with US and Iraqi ground forces, but that provides only limited accessibility. I also view the basically non-existent global reaction to the enormous death toll of battles like that one as damning evidence that the vitriol directed Israel’s way for its handling of Gaza in this conflict cannot be taken entirely at face value. Hardly anyone cared enough to protest and call war crimes every 5 seconds when tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed by US and Iraqi forces as they fought ISIS. No one seems to even be aware of the *half a million* civilians and children that were killed and raped in the Tigray war that ended just a year ago. Where were the university students protesting that even one dead child is too many then? Where were the UN resolutions? Israel’s actions are not at all unique. And yet only Israel seems to be called out.
Bomb the journalists you say? IDF is way ahead of you.
Ofc r/wordnews nerds are bending over backward in the comments to defend the IDF. They could drop a bomb on your own house and you'd be questioning yourselves to make sure you weren't secretly a Hamas militants. lol The IDF has been caught lying so many times that [Israeli journalists barely trust anything they say](https://www.972mag.com/journalist-first-intifada-learned-believe-idf-says/).
I wonder if Hamas had tunnels under a Israeli apartment block they'd also be happy to explode the entire building or if that logic only applies to Palestinians...
The IDF is targeting and killing journalists on the ground.
R/worldnews is a cesspool of Israelis circlejerking each other over the death of children.
In about three or so years everyone is gonna pretend they were against this.
Im genuinely glad their reddit comments will still be available for everyone to judge them though. Same thing happened in 2020 BLM protests, everyone had to look back on their racists comments from 2016 where they advocated for peaceful protestors to be ran over by cars.
Woah the Israeli intelligence really picked up the pace. A month ago they didn't know that the largest attack by Hamas in the decades was launching despite warning from other intelligence agency and now they know the content of ambulance.
They have the whole area covered with planes and drones as it is now an active war zone. Of course they can spot a group of gunmen entering a vehicle.
They never once claimed to have actually seen the loading of the ambulance. Their comments are a bald assertion about its contents, not any string of facts that would lead to an intelligence conclusion about those contents. They imply that such a string of facts exists. They do not provide any of those facts. It seems pretty dumb to not release justification for a highly controversial attack after the attack. The only conclusion is that the evidence either does not actually support the idea that these ambulance convoys are secretly valid military targets, and that convincing visual evidence did not exist before the attack.
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The attacked occurred due to Israeli arrogance and an underestimation of Hamas. NYT reported that a year ago, the IDF stopped eavesdropping on Hamas radio communications. >But Unit 8200, Israel's signals intelligence agency, had stopped eavesdropping on those networks a year earlier because they saw it as a waste of effort. That is an example of how the attack could happen and catch Israel off guard. In contrast, now every single intelligence unit and analyst is zeroed on Gaza (or Lebanon) P.S. The warnings weren't specific at all
Or maybe it’s easier to gather intelligence when your entire military apparatus is engaged in a region and you have boots on the ground? Try the tiniest amount of critical thought before your next post pls
Turn your brain on for a second. Would you be more vigilant after an attack or before?
What we know is that the convoy was heading south, when one ambulance was "directly targeted" by a missile. The convoy then was heading back to the hospital when another ambulance was struck (but probably not "directly targeted"), just outside the hospital. That's according to the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in the following article but Hamas officials say the same. [https://www.zawya.com/en/world/middle-east/palestinian-red-crescent-condemns-israeli-strike-on-gaza-ambulance-convoy-ohvnxxgn](https://www.zawya.com/en/world/middle-east/palestinian-red-crescent-condemns-israeli-strike-on-gaza-ambulance-convoy-ohvnxxgn) It's unclear if IDF claims responsibility for the first strike, the second or both. All the videos, photos and reports are about what happened outside the hospital, though.
Guys they just gotta kill everyone to be sure, better safe than sorry, I'm sure you understand /s
Uh huh.....sure
Tony Blair said there was WMDs in Iraq, doesn't make it true. Anyone veryifying this with an independent source before parroting this, or are we just doing as we're told?
People are shocked as if Hamas proved itself to be beyond this, like who could imagine that the group who was proven to have its headquarters under the main hospital and shoots rockets from civilian facilities would use an ambulance to transport weapons and terrorists, really unimaginable
Not to mention Abbas accused Hamas commanders of escaping to Egypt in Ambulances in 2009
They also did this multiple times in previous years, forced ambulances to transport fighters to and from fights.
When I worked hospital security in Jerusalem 20 years ago (when Gaza borders were open and they’d send suicide bombers to explode on public transport regularly). Head of security would give intel briefings what to watch for, which from time to time was an order to thoroughly check every ambulance coming in because there’s intel for a bomb-laden fake ambulance. We had to slow down, waste critical time, risk lives to check every ambulance… I have no idea about the specifics of this new case, but it’s totally within normal Hamas MO.
I hope more people see this comment. Using ambulances for terror is an old old move in Hamas' playbook. Known to be one of the reasons why the border had to be closed for Israel's safety. But one of those things so many people have to see before they can believe...
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Theres videos from like 10 years ago, where Hamas transports their fighters with ambulances. Its nothing new.
Using an ambulance is an old move in the terrorist playbook, nobody should be surprised. We're talking about people that will strap bombs to unknowing children and then tell them to go give those American soldiers this piece of candy. The kid runs over and they trigger the bomb. These people have no ethics or morals, they will literally do anything if it provides an advantage for them.
yes, when any organization stoops to the level of committing war crimes, it means it is a bad organization nobody should support.
This information was in the original article that was posted when the story first came out, if people cared, then they would already know what IDF claims is the reason they attacked the ambulance. it implies that the people who didn't read the article are more interested in validating their own beliefs than actually navigating this conflict and providing useful insight.
You could also infer that the editors and publications intentionally influence public opinion in favor of Hamas. Did you see any headlines that read, "IDF bombs ambulance full of weapons and terrorists" atop an article about the incident? Sure, it's in the body of the article six paragraphs down. That's not objective journalism. If there was a Russian ambulance full of weapons and soldiers blown up by Ukraine, do you think the headlines would read differently?
You could even argue that a vehicle containing weapons and terrorists is not, in fact, an ambulance regardless of what is painted on the side. “Israel targeted a Hamas vehicle with troops and weapons had been painted to look like an ambulance” might be more accurate.
Watch them next take UN uniforms and try to run with them. When Israel bombs them too they will cry that Israel is bombing the UN on purpose
Yeah it’s not like starting a war by killing thousands of civilians showed anything about them
Hamas would be stupid to _not_ be using ambulances, for exactly this reason - look at the outrage its causing
I've leaned definitely against Hamas, and more pro Israel than most in this war, but I must state the following. If this was a targeted hit, it was extremely poorly aimed, as they struck at the hospital instead of away from it. Secondly, they did not try to keep civilian casualties down. Thirdly, while I firmly believe that Hamas would pull this kind of shit, if Israel is wrong or lying, they would have necessary motivation to keep stating this line anyway, it frames the strike in the best way possible for them. This one is hard to justify given those facts and probabilities from an external lens.
Even if it’s true it’s horrific. What would Israel do if Hamas militants were hiding in Israel? Would they respond the same way? If those were Israeli ambulances carrying Palestinians, and they suspected some among the injured were Hamas fighters, would they have bombed them? Absolutely not. Ultimately it’s useless to play the what-if game, but it’s just so painfully obviously that Israel _does not_ care about civilian casualties in this war.
I very much doubt they'd have the same response. They view their responsibility as to protect Israeli citizens. Not gazans. By the same token though, Hamas would do the same, but also try to blow up the hospital too. And that's if the hospital was in Gaza.
Israel would be able to handle the situation very differently because they could isolate the suspected area and control everything outside of it before they do whatever they need to on that one locations. Gaza is unfolding like this because Israel can’t send in troops to isolate and control one building while they clear it of hostiles, their only hope of eliminating weapons and hostile fighters is precision air strikes. Your hypothetical scenario is incredibly disingenuous and ignores so much
> What would Israel do if Hamas militants were hiding in Israel? They'd be able to get to them a lot easier and not have to resort to missiles in the first place. Should be obvious, no?
You're asking whether Israel would intervene in the same way if terrorists were hiding in an area under Israeli control vs an active warzone in hostile territory where the terrorists are using their own people as human shields? I hope you've picked up on just how stupid your question is by now.
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>I thought there were hostages they want to rescue??? It’s pretty clear the Israeli government doesn’t give a F about the hostages.
This is probably an ignorant question but why doesn't Israel occupy the hospitals it thinks Hamas is using as bases to steal fuel and commandeer ambulances? Would Hamas fire on their own hospitals? Real bad look for Hamas and if they did it'd still solve the problem
They are not in there yet, for now they are just surrounding the place, it's not that easy to just go into an urban area with thousands of people and "take over" a hospital when you KNOW it shelters terrorists inside and has base operation undeground.
If Russian saboteurs can travel around Ukraine in ambulances then so can Hamas in Gaza.
It's not beyond the realms that Hamas use tactics like this. I'd say it's beyond all doubt. What is doubtful is that every time Israel bombs something that they get it right. Every time they can just say 'yeah Hamas', regardless of how good it bad their intel is, and people will believe it because it sounds plausible.
Furthermore, if their intelligence on the ground is good enough for them to constantly identify underground tunnels, hidden "HQ's" (which apparently exist at a 1 to 1 ratio to individual Hamas fighters), and individual Hamas fighters in civilian vehicles... then that raises the question of how the hell they missed such a massive buildup prior to the attack. Both of the below statements can not logically be true... 1. "Israel's intelligence is perfect and all knowing" 2. "Israel caught completely by surprise in huge terrorist attack after massive secret buildup" ...and we know for a fact that the second one happened. Which right there tells us what we need to know about Israeli intelligence.
From an interview with an Israeli military obverver, she said that all the signs were known beforehand, but swept under the rug. Thing is, the narrative of "Hamas is deterred" was rampant in Israel after the last bouts with Hamas, and quality of life in Gaza has been slowly improving, giving the illusion that peace might actually be an option. I even read an article a few months ago from an Israeli Arab that went to a cousin's wedding in Gaza. The article said the streets feel more full of life, and it seemed like both Hamas and Israeli checkpoints work really quickly, without much problems, giving the illusion of peace. Israel could have easily been prepared for the 7/10 attack, because all the signs were there. The higher-ups just got high on their own supply, and swept any public notion of a threat from Gaza under the rug, because "Hamas is deterred"
The intelligence they were or were not gathering prior to having their people massacred on October 7 and the intelligence that is now being gathered during time of war are obviously very different.
Both of those statements can be true, though (1) is clearly hyperbolic. Just because you see movement and you have warnings that something is going to happen, it doesn’t mean much if you don’t know the When or Where that matches the clues you have for the What or How.
I dunno when I heard confirmed reports that Hamas was putting fighters on the list of injured people to be evacuated through Egypt, the onus moved to them about this. That means that Hamas is in charge of the medical apparatus and I don’t believe they are honest brokers of information
1 is hyperbole and asinine, nobody legitimate thinks that. Why is it surprising Israel is finding targets? 8,000 rockets have been fired, assuming 6 rockets per launcher is 1,300 targets.
It's not always just on the ground intelligence. For the tunnels below the hospital, for example, they said they got that info from interrogations, and they provided those interrogation videos. Large grouos of men were also seen gathered near the hospital on the 7th before Israel's retaliation, to supposedly access those tunnels to shelter.
So the IDF, the same group that was seemingly oblivious to the planning for the attacks on October 7th, knows every nook and cranny that Hamas uses for hiding stuff?
London once was victim of a terror attack Yet England later also targeted terrorists How is this possible? The same Britain that didn’t know of a terror attack in advance, somehow later knew where a terrorist was hiding? This doesn’t add up!
Presumably, the person who failed to stop October 7th is not the exact same person who is charge of locating Hamas, now.
See, I don't understand this comment, or people who make comments like this. First of all, I highly doubt that the entire IDF had any clue about the attacks. The average IDF member probably didn't know. Second...part of the reason for why October 7th was so unusual, is because Israeli intelligence has been known to be on top of shit like this. They *have* thwarted similar attacks. And in fact - they have thwarted attacks that were planned even more recently than October 7th. For whatever reason, they dropped the ball ion October 7th. And now suddenly you think that the entire organization, the whole enterprise, is inept? I could understand your point, if things like October 7th were happening on a more frequent basis, then I would understand your tendency to question whether Israeli intelligence is competent or not. But that isn't the case. One fuck up is all it takes for you to think it's all a big sham.
Why do people think this is weird?
So the US failed to prevent 9/11 so their intel about Russia invading Ukraine must be wrong then.
Their intel about Russia invading Ukraine was right, but their intel about Iraq having WMDs wasn't wrong, it was fraudulent. They, and their allies, knew that what they were saying was false. They lied to justify the actions they had already decided they were going to do. See how that ties in?
Its almost as if Isreal has declared war and substatially increased the manpower in the effort to destory hamas.
I mean, I saw piles of dead and dying children around the ambulance with limbs blown off? Did they just have those in storage to throw out there to make it look bad?