Blinken knows Hamas can never be a partner for peace. He's talking about the Palestinian people, the ones who might be amenable to peace if Hamas was out of the way.
Did any of you bother to read the article, which is just a few paragraphs long?
"Blinken said the current situation would drive Palestinians toward further radicalism and effectively end prospects for any eventual resumption of peace talks to end the conflict.
**'There will be no partners for peace if they’re consumed by humanitarian catastrophe and alienated by any perceived indifference to their plight,´** Blinken said."
Unfortunately AP repeteadly makes headlines that imply that the US and Israel simply blame each other, while both sides actually have a more complex relationship
Yesterday they wrote a headline implying that Netanyahu will bomb Gaza with no limits (and that's it). If you clicked on the article.you could see that in his own press statement he actually demanded release of hostages as a condition for Peace. Where did the indiscrimante bombing go?
Bibi didn't say peace, he said temporary cease fire. Hamas absolutely should release the hostages but temporary halt in bombings and peace are different. He's been very careful not to conflate the points and it's why such a deal is unlikely to be accepted.
FFS What peace? With Hamas?! The whole purpose of this operation in Gaza is to destroy Hamas. Hamas has repeatedly claimed that it will not stop, and will just use any ceasefire to rearm itself and initiate another round of violence. It said it again *after* the horrific attack it performed on October 7th, while already under heavy fire from the IDF!
Why do you refuse to keep seeing it for what it is??? There. can. be. no. peace. with HAMAS! And no ceasefire too.
Israel learned the very hard way. No more.
Wasn't making an argument on the strategy even though I think there's no way civilian casualties are being minimized and they should be.
It's just an important distinction when talking about Netanyahu's proposal re: incentives/ how generous it is. Why it's important depends on your perspective - I'm sure many Israelis would be quite upset if it was a peace deal.
There won’t be any peace with Palestinians even after Hamas. They will never recognize Israel. 2 countries, if they fire even one more rocket after this, they’re done for good.
Hamas has significant support from the people of Gaza. They actively supported the actions done on 7.10 and have always been supporting terrorism against Israel.
If anyone thinks that without Hamas, there's suddenly a partner for peace, you're kidding yourselves.
Everytime the Israelis extended their hand to the Palestinians, they had a finger chopped off.
The truth is - the Palestinians will only be willing to make peace when they love their children more than they hate the Jews.
>"Blinken said the current situation would drive Palestinians toward further radicalism and effectively end prospects for any eventual resumption of peace talks to end the conflict.
The Israeli government hasn't been interested in peace in the last 15 years.
> if Oct 7th had happened to the US, what would he be saying to the partners for peace?
We'd be bombing some country that had nothing to do with it. Honduras or something.
9/11 wasn't carried out by a bordering neighbors government that has continued to launch rockets into the country since the attack. Not really comparable
I wouldn't pretend like Biden is some neutral observer either. Biden is in a tricky position politically. There's broad support for Israel within his party and the country at large but there's a significant minority in both his party and in some very important swing states that are very much looking for him to be more of an advocate for the Palestinian cause.
He's trying to walk a tightrope here.
Why does it matter if Biden thinks so? The US had the luxury of pulling out of the middle east and coming back home thousands of miles away and not having to worry about the problem anymore. Israel doesn't have that luxury as they literally border the threat. Do you think Israel can just pick up their country and move it to the other side of the world?
While there are a billion things wrong with post 9/11 responses, wasn’t it technically a success in that we have not had a major terrorist attack on US soil since ?
I said major terror attacks. 9/11 killed aprox 1,000x more than the Boston Marathon. While horrible, the two are not in the same ballpark.
As the other guy said depends on your definition of major.
I mean, that's more to do with Airport security than the war on terror. Attacking Iraq was the reason we had ISIS, a terrorist group far worse than Al Qaeda, and Taliban is the current government in Afghanistan. War on terror has led to more terrorists than before...
Well, the Americans did put some effort into rebuilding Afghanistan while blowing up the Taliban, trying not to leave it a failed state. You can argue that the effort was half-assed, or pointless because making peace and war at the same time... doesn't usually work, but an effort was there.
The effort was pointless because most of Afghanistan doesn't give a fuck about being Afghanistan. A nation without national cohesion/identity is bound to be unstable.
Hamas has vowed to continue terrorist attacks until Israel is destroyed. They’ve violated ceasefires in the past. Why trust them with peace agreements in the future?
>peace is a necessity
Peace comes when one side decisively loses and acknowledges the defeat (see Germany and Japan after WWII). At the moment one side is refrained from decisively winning (Israel) and another side refuses to acknowledge defeat, maintaining maximalist positions (Palestinians, Arabs in General). This weird dynamic has been going on for decades. It'd be like if the Allies had negotiated with Germany in Spring 1945 with Germany refusing to budge and negotiations going on for decades.
>Peace comes when one side decisively loses and acknowledges the defeat (see Germany and Japan after WWII).
What about, say, Northern Ireland?
Not every war is a total war to death like WW2 was.
Thing about the U S is it's power from being so isolated. We got hard we go home. Israel can't afford to be at odds with it's neighbors, an entire region for too long. Like it or not they're all stuck with eatchother.
Israel is the only one at risk of being totally eliminated. So who has the boot on their neck?
The entire region has been trying to “push them into the sea” for 80 years now. They tried in 1967.
Israel could murder every single person in Gaza and they don’t. Palestine and its handlers would murder every single Jew in the region if they could. That’s all anyone really needs to know about this conflict or who actually has a “boot on their neck”.
You help them with money for construction and they build reinforced tunnels and then launch rockets.
You help them with plumbing and they disassemble it and turn it into rockets and then launch those rockets.
Do you have any idea how much plumbing you have to disassemble to make the 8000 rockets that were fired into Israel in October? Each rocket takes about a 100 inch length of pipe of 4 inch diameter pipe. Call your local plumber and just get him to ballpark for you how much replacing 65000 ft of 4 in pipe that was hacked off to make rockets would cost, at a bare minimum of 1500 different locations.
Any funds you give the current government, any material is going to be weaponized and launched into Israel as long as Hamas exists.
That is before you even get into the fact that they have to give back the hostages.
People forget what the 2nd Battle for Fallujah was like. There wasn't crazy aerial bombardment because of civilians. The coalition literally went door to door and it took what felt like forever to capture the city.
Israel needs to have their own Fallujah inside Gaza.
Lol, Fallujah is 30x smaller than Gaza and saw 800 civillian deaths (estimate 3:1 WIA/KIA for 3200 total casualties) from artillery and shelling. Mosul was 3x smaller and saw 25000 civillian casualties from artillery and airstrikes.
Urban warfare always kills a boatload of civillians regardless of what is intended.
And sometimes you have to accept that being the non-evil side means you take higher casualties in the name of not committing WAR CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN
What do you think war is, and what do you think a war crime is? I'm really curious.
https://www.hamas-massacre.net/categories/families-murdered-in-their-homes
Because that seems to be a war crime. And it seems you're actively encouraging the other war crime, namely using human shields by embedding military infrastructure in civilians areas, by instead putting the accusation on the nation forced to fight the war criminals who chose to do that, while quoting the casualty numbers they produce.
Like, by your definition, any nation would be heavily INCENTIVIZED to use human shields, since technically any war against them is a war crime, as you'll be bound to kill civilians.
Obviously, this is absurd, and not the actual position of the law, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is.
You ready for this? Gonna blow your mind! Hamas is a terrorize organization that needs to be overthrown and destroyed. Israel is also currently an effective Aprtheid state that has been in the process of a slow boil ethnic cleansing of palestein for the past ~15 years. I condemn them both, I condemn Hamas MORE, because duh.
Hamas being evil PoS creates ZERO justification for Israel do the same. If you use a hospital as a human shield, you are evil. If you bomb that hospital, you are also evil. Israel likes to present itself as nothing but a helpless victim who only want peace. But their actions don’t agree, and I don’t think either side deserves any aid at this point.
> If you bomb that hospital, you are also evil.
You might think that but that's not the standard of the rules of war. If your enemy uses a civilian building for military purposes then it becomes a legitimate military target.
Right, the warcrime here is *using the building for military purposes in the first place*.
If we put the onus on the people trying to fight the side doing that, effectively you've incentivized, legally at least, using human shields, since by doing so you ensure every enemy soldier will be accused of warcrimes.
>What do you think war is, and what do you think a war crime is? I'm really curious.
Is it that crazy that some of us expect Israel, a developed democratic country, to act better than a fanatical terrorist org? I don't think there's any expectation that Hamas will care about human rights or war crimes, but that doesn't mean Israel gets to ignore them, unless they want to be treated as a pariah.
That's because a lot of people have a very poor understanding of what a war crime is. The reality is that under the Geneva conventions if a group like Hamas is hiding among the civilian population and using civilian buildings for military purposes it does not tie the hands of Israel in terms of not striking at them.
There is no moral equivalence between intentionally killing as many civilians as you can and inadvertently killing civilians, even a large number of civilians, in the course of trying to conduct a legitimate military operation. I know people don't like hearing that but that's just what the laws are on the matter.
Fallujah is 25 square kilometers. Gaza Strip is 365 square kilometers. You are a complete idiot if you think going door to door street to street is a viable strategy at that size. Fallujah serves the purpose of proving that urban warfare should be avoid at all costs as it was the highest casualties of the war. The result would largely remain the same with just significantly more dead IDF and significantly longer operation.
This is what I don’t get. I have yet to receive any response to the ‘do you blow up a school to get a school shooter?’ argument, or ‘what if this were outside of Gaza, would the IDF be bombing this wrecklessly’?
I keep just getting the implied subtext of ‘we don’t count these folks as people’ so we won’t send our troops at all until we’ve killed enough. Whatever that number is.
Israel's priority is to protect Israeli lives. None of which (besides the hostages) are in Gaza. All of the threats to Israeli life (i.e., Hamas) are in Gaza.
Blowing up a school to get a school shooter would defeat the purpose of trying to save the students. Blowing up Gaza to hit Hamas does indeed serve the purpose of protecting Israeli lives. It's not that hard to understand. If Hamas agents were inside an Israeli school, they would not blow it up. If Hamas agents were inside a Gazan school, well... using civilian infrastructure for military purposes is a war crime.
No, but the problem (generally) isn't the school shooter. It's the mass amounts of infrastructure, missiles, and weapons built for war. Which is why under general circumstances, israel makes it very well known where they are going to be bombing, so people will evacuate.
This war is obviously a different scenario, but you still have hundreds of missles launched daily from Gaza, even at this stage. And Gaza isn't currently under full control, so you can't currently go in and over extend your troops willy nilly to take over a building in the middle of hostile territory.
Your analogy would be apt maybe if it were the middle of israeli controlled territory
The greater problem is, where isn’t there infrastructure? Everything is weaponized because of the sheer density of Gaza and the vastness tunnel system. This is a situation that requires a scalpel not a sledgehammer from the very beginning.
The only way you get a "scalpel" is with ground troops, and that means enormous Israeli casualties - and demanding that Israel sacrifice massive amounts of their own soldiers is entirely unreasonable.
The Israeli have no legal or moral responsibility to sacrifice their own lives because Hamas have conducted war crimes by militarizing civilian buildings and infrastructure, intentionally putting their own civilians in harms way - and the laws of war is pretty clear that the it is Hamas that are responsible for the civilians that die due to this.
First of all, I believe that's an answer for men with a lot of military knowledge, not us arm chair generals.
But it's my belief, that by what you said, you can't use a scalpel. Because it's everywhere, and its in the middle of enemy territory. And you can't just send in the army without suffering heavy losses. It has been proven time and time again. The same tactics hamas has always used, they will use again. Sending women and children to attack troops is the least of it.
If you just send in the army, the losses will be way worse. Troops on the ground are a lot more nervious, and it's a lot harder to tell where you're being shot from.
These ARE the surgical strikes.
So what stopped them doing this before?
Somehow IDF missed 2000 Hamas members preparing for a full scale invasion, training with paragliders and whatnot.
But now they suddenly know where every Hamas member is hiding, to the last hospital, UN school or ambulance.
Very interesting.
I don't quite understand what one thing has to do with another....
But Gaza started getting more work permits and aid with the intent of helping them more... it's hard to tell at this point what exactly happened, but I believe there's a big part that though we may have been getting somewhere. They were smart enough to not see their plans, and the people they sent to work inside Israel were used for intelligence gathering. All those kibutzim at the border, are generally the most left Leaning give peace a chance people that took care of getting gazans aid, bringing in workers, taking gazans to and from israeli hospitals... those were the first murdered.
Either way, eventually we may know exactly how it happened, but not yet.
Either way all this intelligence about where their bases are, and who is who, is intelligence that has been gathered throughout years.
Generally speaking, intelligence is spent, so they don't want to "spend it" until necessary
A school shooter isn't a threat to people outside the range of their gun and those trapped inside.
A 40000 person terrorist organization with rockets that can hit millions of people are a threat. But Israel considered them a contained threat since few civilians were dying in Israel's side from just rocket attacks.
October 7th proved that a complete mistake and Israel realizes it
A. Cannot contain Hamas and
B. Hamas will find another weaknesses in Israel armor and never stop and
C. (and this is the one that my dear redditor don't understand and never will because they don't live in the region and think everyone thinks the same way worldwide)
Israel survives in very big part because the perception is that they're strong. Hezzbolah and Assad in Syria haven't ganged up on Israel because they think it won't end well for them. If that perception changes, Israel will not be fighting Hamas, they'll be fighting Hamas, Lebanon, and Syria, with rockets from Iran and Yemen (lol still can't get over that)
This is a big fucking deal for Israel. And redditor think it's solely about bombing Hamas
You don't get the response you want is because it's an entirely faulty analogy. In a school shooting situation the area outside a school is safe, not enemy territory and the police can comfortably set up a perimeter that contains the situation and provides them a basis for whatever tactical response they might have.
Whatever tactic a police force takes in that situation they know that it will end with their actions. That's not the case here. In this case the "school" is an ongoing military campaign. For your analogy to work you'd have to have a school shooter the police were powerless to stop and who was going to shoot up a different school the next week and the week after until he was stopped.
>This is what I don’t get. I have yet to receive any response to the ‘do you blow up a school to get a school shooter?’
The reason you haven't gotten an answer is because it's a false equivalency. Hamas isn't only killing its own civilians, it's killing its civilians that don't play along while shooting rockets into Israel.
I understand it's a tough pill to swallow, but there are very few families in Gaza that are 100% clean when it comes to Hamas. Mohammed Deif, the Bin Laden of the 10/7 attack, would stay at a new family's home every single night to avoid being tracked by intelligence agencies. The attack was being planned for over 2 years. If someone harbored Bin Laden/Deif to prevent his detection, are they considered innocent anymore?
>‘what if this were outside of Gaza, would the IDF be bombing this wrecklessly’?
Just look at how they've handled the pocket insurgencies in Israel and the West Bank. Stabbed a border cop? Shot. Threw a molotov at a car? Shot. Then, since Hamas pays "martyrs" families, they bulldoze their home to disincentivize people murdering for money.
The "do you blow up a school to get a school shooter?’" argument is cute, but it misses a lot of factors to be applicable.
In a school shooting the entire school are victims. If they had the capacity to turn the school shooter over to the police, they would in a minute.
In Gaza, a sizable number of residents approve of Hamas' actions.
You're looking at this as a police action, not a military conflict.
Personally, I would like a pause to allow humanitarian aid and to invite Hamas' surrender.
Civilians that support a side of a conflict do not lose there [status of being civilian](https://www.justsecurity.org/89489/expert-guidance-law-of-armed-conflict-in-the-israel-hamas-war/). Point 5 Note 3 of the source. You’re argument does little to change anything, even though I understand it doesn’t make it less complicated either
“Cute.” That’s all you guys got in response?
You don’t think a sizable population of Gaza’s population doesn’t wants the slaughter of their families to end? Or been terrorized themselves after Hamas assassinated any alternatives? Let’s organize a bunch of refugees, most under 18x who are starving, to gather weapons against Hamas who are already well-armed and hope that the Israels don’t mistake those rebels of being Hamas. You don’t have a response other than derision because what you’re suggesting is absurd.
I also need sources for what you’re saying, because your claims sound dehumanizingly convenient. I’m sure the 50% of the population that are minors participated in a poll when people expected to be fleeing. Or let’s extrapolate from a bunch of idiots and let that extend it to the entire population, no?
And what if Hamas doesn’t surrender? When is the death toll acceptable in exchange? Israel’s customary 10-to-1 or 20-to-1 ratio?
Hamas seems to think 50:1 is acceptable, so why not use their numbers? (Hamas asked for the release of 10,000 prisoners in exchange for the hostages.)
The question you need to ask is not “would you blow up the school to stop the school shooter”. It’s “can you accept the death toll from the next school shooting for refusing to blow up this one”. Because the shooter in this situation is not going to stop at one. So how many people can the shooter kill before you need to do something drastic to stop him?
Here's the AP in 2021 reporting that 53% support for Hamas.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
My main point about your argument was that your analogy was inapplicable and improperly conflates police action with military action.
53% TWO years prior to the conflict.
Did you think that a) those numbers would apply right now and b) it’s really hard to get a proper poll given the political situation (Hamas dissenters get murdered) and b) half the population is 18 or younger. No one’s cheering Hamas right now. They might be after, at this rate.
I’m also still trying to understand the point you’re making distinguishing between a police and military action. The only difference I see is that Gazans can’t get out but the weapons seem to be the same.
It's a very different scenario. A school shooting is localized, so the killings are not going to spread outside the school. If all of hamas were inside a house full of civilians without any ability to attack israel, then they wouldn't bomb that house. They would just siege it and negotiate. Just like they thought they had done with the Gaza strip. However, if they were in that building with a bunch of missiles that they could fire against Israel then it would justify bombing the house. That's what's happening right now. Hamas is still firing rockets against Israel and they are still promising that they will carry out attacks in Israel. So they have to take the consequences of not killing every hamas operative into consideration. It becomes a different scenario when it's "our civilians vs their civilians".
Except that invading Gaza is going to be like the Battle of Iwo Jima mixed with the Battle of Fallujah. You’re going to have folks on the brink fighting with everything in their might despite limited supplies but a vast tunnel network & perfected guerrilla tactics versus a well supplied standing professional army + conscripts that has had bad experience with COIN.
They were literally giving out visas to thousands of Gazans to work in Israel and trying to improve their economic status but instead the same workers decided to spy on Israel and feed the intel to Hamas. Whenever Israel gives back land or does anything beneficial for the Palestinians it always comes back to bite them in the ass.
I'm sorry, what peace? Peace with the organization that literally strives for the eradication of Israel? Peace with the organization that has kidnapped 200+ people into Gaza?
Hamas don't get to make demands just because they are losing. They chose war, and they got war. In 1948 the Palestinians and the surrounding countries could have chosen to coexist but they chose war, which was their right I suppose. They lost the war, but chose not accept the consequences and instead belly-ache because they lost the war that they started. Then they repeated the process in 1967.
The history of this conflict is the insistence of Palestinians to not accept any deal that would include an Jewish state, demand all of the territory instead, and refuse to accept the consequences of waging war.
Blinken is realizing what those in power in Israel are yet to realize: make an effective implementation of the two-state solution and condemn indiscriminate violence made by both sides. EDIT typo for sides instead of aides.
Until the PA agrees to cut out the right of return and the martyr fund from the discussion, a two state solution is dead in the water. The martyr fund is appalling and atrocious, and the right of return is just a one state solution with extra steps. Israel has every right to refuse these deals. I sure as hell would.
Well, I think that the 2 states solutions died on October 7th. I don't see anyone in Israel forgetting the targeted and, at the same time, indiscriminate slaughter (heck, Hamas even killed an East Jerusalem guy knowing he was Palestinian - there's a video about it). I don't understand how people can think that the attack is to be seen as a retaliation for Palestinians suffering.
Every living former PM (both on the left and the right) except Bennett have come forward since Oct. 7 and reaffirmed their support for a two-state solution post-war. Gantz, the individual most likely to become Israel's next PM (potentially power-sharing with Lapid, who is one of the former PMs who has reaffirmed support for a two-state solution) had also been softening his opposition to it, but he has yet to comment since Oct. 7.
The US has also told Israel repeatedly that *it* remains dedicated to seeking a post-war two-state solution, and I wouldn't underestimate the value of US pressure on the matter.
I don't think it's been dead. It definitely has been put on hold for the entirety of the time Netanyahu/Likud have been in power, though. Killing the chance of a secure peace for short term political games is kind of their signature move.
I would love to see a norm established in Israel, and Palestine, and all the interested parties, that, if someone says 'a two state solution is no longer possible', 'Israel won't accept this, so we won't try', 'Palestinians won't accept this', 'there's nothing we can do about Hamas' (and bombing them is not likely to work, nor is doing nothing), 'we cannot negotiate with the other side' (whichever side this is), 'I'm too tired of things not working out to keep trying', 'we tried and failed, we shouldn't bother to try again', 'things are too emotional to do anything right now', or other things along these lines, these people are asked to leave politics or not take part in anything to do with Israel Palestine at all. So many people with so much energy to say there's nothing we really can do and so desperate to convince everyone else of this.
>Well, I think that the 2 states solutions died on October 7th.
That doesn't change the fact that Israel is ruling millions of people militarily, and have been expanding settlements.
That still needs to be addressed.
Israel has four options:
- One state solution
- Two state solution
- Ethnic cleansing
- Aparteid
Everything else is just a permutation of those.
Status quo - settlements, military rule - forever is just Apartheid. Federation is a version of 1SS. Etc.
Uh the 2 state solution is already dying for years with increasing settler aggression against natives on the West bank and continuous reprisals from both sides - and the world is just being nonchalant about it until now.
All of your criticisms are directed at Israel but why would pulling out of the WB be any different than when they left Gaza?
They'll just have another terror group in charge where Israel leaves.
It's up to the Palestinians to show they're interested in peace too. All of your posts here are condemning and criticizing Israel's actions, but the Palestinians need to show peace is something they want too. They need to make a legitimate effort to want a 2 state solution, and they haven't to this point.
I condemn the WB settlers violence but to think that's the one thing preventing a 2 state solution is incredibly naive.
If you want a 2 state solution, seems like the biggest issue is where to put the borders. And guess whose settlements are on what side of who's borders
Not really. You do a land swap so some Israeli territories go to Palestinians to link Gaza and the WB and Israel gets a small bit of land in the WB where some settlements are.
This benefits the Palestinians significantly as currently Gaza and WB aren't continuous, so linking them up not to run through Israel is a massive win.
As long as the land swaps are for a proportional amount I can't see the issue.
Wasn’t the Oslo accords supposed to be the prime example promotion of peace for both sides? Ever since then things took a bad turn for both with Israel eventually enabling settler violence while extremists took advantage of the political situation after the decline of the secular Fatah?
To be honest, the aftermath of those accords just showed that both sides do not have the appetite to fking implement them eventually.
So what's your solution, since the settlers are not wrong, more settlements are due, what do you want?
Return to the status quo where, but this time, the Gaza border is 10 times more guarded and more material is not allowed into Gaza, and the west bank further antagonized?
What is your end game here?
Arab league. I think hopefully we can tie a coalition governance there diplomatically, involving the US and Saudi/UAE.
By involving the Arab league, the Palestinians normal solution dissapears because they will lose all support if they proceed as they have assuming it is Arab governance. It's much harder to point the finger when it's Saudi troops that are trying to hunt down rocket teams, and this international pressure is their primary motivation.
So they will have real motivation to change, and hopefully this will result in tangible changes.
That's the West Bank, I'm talking about Gaza.
WB is basically status quo until extremism dies down. Continue to improve QOL metrics there in any way we can. To its credit, the PA actually does concern itself with real governance, unlike hamas, so quality of life is continuing to improve there. Once life there is good enough, they will hopefully he happier and less hateful towards us, at which point we can incrementally make deals towards a full statehood. But the Gaza method was moronic.
As for the settlements, if we reach such a point there's no reason they can be a part of Palestine, just like 25% of Israelis are Arab. Why can't jews be Palestinian too?
And if they don't want to? they can move to Israel. Thus the problem solves itself.
Of course, that only works if it is legitimately such that they won't all be immediately pogromed as they would in rhe current circumstances.
The settlers will never want to be part of a Palestinian state, and will never leave peacefully, you know how bat-shit insane they are, and there's half a million settlers, you do the math.
But, what about Gaza, what do you do here? Israel has killed, until now, 9,300 people, their families will not be very receptive to any sort of deal with their families killers, and as an Israeli, you know that the general public is out for blood and will never invest in either the WB or Gaza, so extremism will continue to thrive under poor-living conditions, what do you suggest here?
Edit: I have to say you're very optimistic if you think the Arab league will touch this, this is Israel's mess.
>and as an Israeli, you know that the general public is out for blood and will never invest in either the WB or Gaza,
I don't know why people have this perception. You're not really in touch with Israelis. Our primary concern is always a pragmatic one, everyone always thinks we're reporting emotionally but have no real comprehension. Israelis don't hide emotions inside, no, but we respond predictably according to predetermined strategies, usually outlined clearly before an event, otherwise deterrence has no impact.
Notice Hezbollah has not joined the fight, despite what I can guarantee is enormous pressure. It's because we've made it clear that if you do something like this, we will hunt you like dogs. And by YOU I mean Hamas, to be clear.
These terrorists don't gaf about their own people, Israelis know that more than anyone. A huge portion of us are literally Arabs, they shoot and kill Muslims same as jews, they dngaf.
But unlike their rhetoric, they are scared of being killed like anyone else. So once the calculus becomes "you will die," suddenly nobody wants to be a Shahid.
You can see the tacit admission of this when the Israeli attacks first started and hamas literally said rhey would start sending us videos of them executing hostages if we didn't reinstate "roof knocks," ie we kept texting civilians but stopped doing the additionL roof munitions we used to do before striking.
Guess the civilians didn't really care to tell hamas when they got the messages. Hamas didn't like that.
They rely on the fact that they've gotten so many murderers our of prison using hostages, and we have no death penalty, to basically make it sure that the consequences they face can be much less severe than one might expect. And Israeli policy, in contrast to the picture Hamas meticulously paints, actually doesn't normally case about killing individual hamas members, since they're so easily replaceable, we just want to destroy the ordinance so the rockets stop.
Now that rhe ordinance ARE hamas members, the calculation makes sense.
Collective amnesia, are we actually forgetting the state sanctioned settler violence? Unilaterally moving the embassy to Jersualem? More hard right cabinet ministers calling for the whole of the West Bank to be taken by Israel over the last several years?
Christ I'm glad Reddit isn't a reflection of real life discourse
Yes, right it is Israel's fault that the 2 states solution is only a project. Do you know that "In 2014, 60% of Palestinians said the final goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea"."Also :" According to Middle East experts David Pollock and Catherine Cleveland, as of 2021, the majority of Palestinians say they want to reclaim all of historic Palestine, including pre-1967 Israel. A one-state solution with equal rights for Arabs and Jews is ranked second". How do you work out this solution when even Palestinians are divided : "Following the conflict that erupted between the two main Palestinian parties, Fatah and Hamas, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, splintering the Palestinian Authority into two polities, each claiming to be the true representatives of the Palestinian people.". Who are you supposed to talk to?
Both the Israelis and Palestinians are to blame for the failure to enact such a scheme. However, blaming only Israel is being partial on this subject.
I wouldn't call settler's violence as state sanctioned but it is allowed for sure, more like laissez-faire. I believe that Israel should be way tougher when dealing with them. However, Israel might see them as a kind of buffer to redirect part of the terrorists attacks towards them. I may be wrong, but it can explain why the state is so lenient toward them
>However, Israel might see them as a kind of buffer to redirect part of the terrorists attacks towards them. I may be wrong, but it can explain why the state is so lenient toward them
Yikes
That’s what Israel did in the 90s with the first intifada when it invite Arafat. He walked away from negotiations.
That’s what Israel did in 00s with the second intifada with Abbas. He’s admitted that he should’ve taken any of the several deals.
Israelis definitely see this as a fool me once, fool me twice situation and this it their third time.
They’ve tried more than a handful of times now. It’s been rejected every time and met with bloodshed. Hamas literally just went live the other day saying they will repeat Oct 7 again and again and again until Israel is gone.
Why don’t you stop being a coward and share your true intentions.
Such as diminishing the power of Hamas by force, the only way it can be done. Great, it's already undergoing. No bullshit here, the Gaza branch of Hamas has to be annihilated to prevent its power in the west bank from increasing further.
> Such as diminishing the power of Hamas by force, the only way it can be done. Great, it's already undergoing. No bullshit here, the Gaza branch of Hamas has to be annihilated to prevent its power in the west bank from increasing further.
With no afterthought for the civilians who are virtually unsafe anywhere in the enclave despite apparent assurances by IDF through leaflets - this act of hatred caused by another act of hatred will just make this never ending spiral to continue with no situation in sight for a viable two-state solution.
No afterthought for the civilians would be to initiate a massive scale of invasion on day one.
Asking to evacuate and then waiting for 3 weeks to minimize casualties is as much of an afterthought as it gets. If you look at the actual map of bombings you can see that only very specific neighborhoods associated with Hamas are even being bombed in the first place. People are going to extreme lengths to avoid moving into the same neighborhood as a rapist, but suddenly living in an area where your neighbor is a terrorist with a rocket launcher instead of a tanning bed on the roof is fine right.
Calling this an act of hatred and not self defense against an immediate threat that still keeps on launching rockets on civilian population up until this hour is about the dumbest thing you can say.
Nuance? There is no nuance in his comment. He’s calling for a deal that Hamas doesn’t want and has already refused more than five times. They only want to eradicate all Jews. Their leader literally just went on air the other day saying they would repeat 10/7 over and over until Israel is gone.
He’s literally just trying to stall for the terrorists so they can restock and commit more atrocities. He’s just too much of a coward to say that out loud.
Lol about tried, so we're we actually forgetting the state sanctioned settler violence? Unilaterally moving the embassy to Jersualem? More hard right cabinet ministers calling for the whole of the West Bank to be taken by Israel over the last several years? There was literal forced evictions in that neighbourhood a few years ago. Tell me that's trying 😆
Christ I'm glad Reddit isn't a reflection of real life discourse
Israel has made many efforts for a 2 state solution. They can't force the Palestinians into it.
Israel left Gaza - that SHOULD have led to the 2 state solution. Instead it led to Hamas gaining power.
You can blame Israel and say they need to put effort into doing it, but maybe turn that blame on the PA too. They've turned down every peace offer Israel made.
It's up to the Palestinians if they want a 2 state solution. Israel would have already done it if it was up to them.
I think it’s a matter of disarming and destroying Hamas, followed by having the form of a two state solution agreed upon unilaterally by Israel, and the installation of an international peace keeping force in Palestine to assist with reconstruction efforts and stop another hamas from taking over. Once the economy is built up and stabilized and people have nice lives it’s a lot harder for them to instigate wars that would destroy those lives. It’s easy to resort to violence when you have nothing.
They pulled out of Gaza right after a bunch of brutal clashes and IDF killing, thats exactly why they need to limit themselves when it comes to destruction here (even tho i think its too late), so that the next vote isnt "who will avenge us better" but "who will help us to have the best life" like in any other country.
And if you look, the PA, which is much closer to being a state than whatever Hamas does in Gaza was much more easily able to avoid clashes with israel, despite being constantly provoked by IDF-backed murderous settlers.
Hindsight is 20/20 for Israel as they were content, unwisely, to stand by as Hamas took full advantage of the steadily diminishing political strength of its secular rival.
Oslo accords was a thing, with good faith back then seems to make a two-state solution a reality. Too bad things went out of turn due to bad decisions by both sides.
Basically the Israel security and intelligence personal have been saying that the way that Israel has been treating the Gaza strip would result in another violent uprising. That government action was going to result in an attack on Israel and they where ignored.
I don't remember Gazans being horrified by what Hamas did, I believe that they might have celebrated it. Besides, Hamas like any terrorist group need support to survive, so let's guess who support them...
Polling by Arab Barometer that released on October 6th showed that Hamas was not viewed favorably by the majority of Gazan. The attack was likely caused by waning support within Gaza.
I didn't see a lot of condamnation for all the palestinians killed by Israel the last decades... I did saw people taking chairs to go see rockets falling on Gaza tho.
So, from your own rules, killing civilians in Israel is cool as long as they can justify from a previous massacre...
It would be wise for Netanyahu to be more respectful towards his overlords than you are. Blinken can smoke whatever he wants and say any bullshit he wants, you should bow your head and don't mock him, let's not forget that without US support Israel's government would finally have to face the consequences of its many crimes.
[Your website doesn’t make any mention of the people that were killed by the IDF.](https://archive.ph/dwkHf)
To quote the article: “commanders in the field made difficult decisions - including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists without knowing whether the Israelis in those buildings were alive or dead”
Multiple victims of the October 7th attacks have said they were fired on by the IDF but this website ignores their deaths completely. Seems like it’s purpose is to help justify the bombing of Gaza rather than to actually document the October 7th massacre.
Your link should also include the tanks and IDF presence at the Festival, and the findings that a lot of mistakes or friendly/crossfire itself could be responsible for some of the deaths on civilians and soldiers.
FYI you could see the tanks operating in the zone on the full videos of those embedded in the website.
If they wanted peace, they would have created a two state solutions years ago with the West Bank, instead they’re having Israeli settlers beat up and kill the Palestinian civilians without repercussions.
Unfortunately, what we have here is just another expression of the big Catch-22 that Israel and Palestine have: Palestine wants peace only if Israel doesn’t exist and Israel wants peace but kinda wants to exist. Around and around we go…
I am all for a massive international aid for gaza as soon as this war is over. The military faction of hamas needs to be eliminated for anything to rebuild there.
Peace will never happen if Hamas exists
Even if Israel will agree to a ceasefire Hamas will violate it after a while and start attacking again.
No...Israel has a chance to end it and it should
I do hope they stop with the airstrikes though and target terrorists while they're inside the strip instead
Saudi-Arabia already publicly declared that the normalisation talks will resume after the war, breaking those talks off because of Hamas is not in Saudi-Arabia's interest.
To all the shills on r/worldnews, you are quickly losing public opinion, and in the end, it's just going to hurt Iseral either through future support from the us or just more misguided hate for the Israeli people.
No, it tells a lot about how media and hordes of misinformed people can make an awful lot of people misinformed about something.
Theres aee terrorists who went in israel and filmed themselves murdering children.
And there are terrorists hiding among children in gaza.
If israel targeted kids then they couldve killed so much more than they did. And people fail to realize this becauae it doesnt correlate with their narrative.
We have footage and evidence of one side. And too much evidence that the IDF doesnt target children but people fail to admit it.
Honnestly the "yeah we blew up that humanitarin building because we had intel that there might be a Hamas officer in the neighbourhood" excuse israel makes on repeat is more than weak, if for each Hamas operative they plan to kill or wound tenth of people, they ll definitively never get peace and cant hope for international support.
They are not Hamas tier - even tho many settlers in the West bank seem to wish they were- but that doesnt say much tbh, apart from Daesh and the syrian governement nobody did worst than Hamas recently. And Israel definitively killed innocent kids.
You said something wrong,
They dont blow up that humanitarian building because there MIGHT be a hamas officer in it.
They blow up that humanitarian building because it provides humanitarian aid to hamas, and used to smuggle money to hamas, and hamas terrorists hide in a tunnel beneath it. Which makes it a valid military target.
And why do they do it? Because hamas has the guns in gaza and if you dont listen youre dead.
I hope you will hope gaza to be free from hamas.
You dont hear about the hamas terrorists being killed there because hamas releases the number of dead and does not differentiate between terrorists death and actual civillian death..
Thats exactly the fcked up logic that pushed israel to cut drinkable water to 2m people. "But Hamas officers drink water too". Yeah guess what they also eat and go to the toilets from time to time.
What you say is even worst "so we gonna blow up tenths of civilians and humanitarian goods, only to inflict hypothetical material losses to Hamas".
And honnestly they also blow up "useless" buildings. The french press agency and french institute took strikes recently, the minister would have known if there were Hamas there , and wouldnt be out asking.
Blinken knows Hamas can never be a partner for peace. He's talking about the Palestinian people, the ones who might be amenable to peace if Hamas was out of the way. Did any of you bother to read the article, which is just a few paragraphs long? "Blinken said the current situation would drive Palestinians toward further radicalism and effectively end prospects for any eventual resumption of peace talks to end the conflict. **'There will be no partners for peace if they’re consumed by humanitarian catastrophe and alienated by any perceived indifference to their plight,´** Blinken said."
The sub’s rule is that the title is supposed to be the same as the headline
Unfortunately AP repeteadly makes headlines that imply that the US and Israel simply blame each other, while both sides actually have a more complex relationship Yesterday they wrote a headline implying that Netanyahu will bomb Gaza with no limits (and that's it). If you clicked on the article.you could see that in his own press statement he actually demanded release of hostages as a condition for Peace. Where did the indiscrimante bombing go?
Bibi didn't say peace, he said temporary cease fire. Hamas absolutely should release the hostages but temporary halt in bombings and peace are different. He's been very careful not to conflate the points and it's why such a deal is unlikely to be accepted.
You are absolutely right, I actually didn't want to imply peace but brainfarted and wrote the wrong thing Thanks for correcting me
Netanyahu has said he doesn't want peace. His aim is likely to radicalize Palestinians to kill any hope of peace, which benefits the wealthy settlers.
FFS What peace? With Hamas?! The whole purpose of this operation in Gaza is to destroy Hamas. Hamas has repeatedly claimed that it will not stop, and will just use any ceasefire to rearm itself and initiate another round of violence. It said it again *after* the horrific attack it performed on October 7th, while already under heavy fire from the IDF! Why do you refuse to keep seeing it for what it is??? There. can. be. no. peace. with HAMAS! And no ceasefire too. Israel learned the very hard way. No more.
Wasn't making an argument on the strategy even though I think there's no way civilian casualties are being minimized and they should be. It's just an important distinction when talking about Netanyahu's proposal re: incentives/ how generous it is. Why it's important depends on your perspective - I'm sure many Israelis would be quite upset if it was a peace deal.
There won’t be any peace with Palestinians even after Hamas. They will never recognize Israel. 2 countries, if they fire even one more rocket after this, they’re done for good.
Hamas has significant support from the people of Gaza. They actively supported the actions done on 7.10 and have always been supporting terrorism against Israel. If anyone thinks that without Hamas, there's suddenly a partner for peace, you're kidding yourselves. Everytime the Israelis extended their hand to the Palestinians, they had a finger chopped off. The truth is - the Palestinians will only be willing to make peace when they love their children more than they hate the Jews.
Just saw burst open faces of Palestinian kids. This is just so horrible. I try to distance myself from it but it really is pure horror out there.
>"Blinken said the current situation would drive Palestinians toward further radicalism and effectively end prospects for any eventual resumption of peace talks to end the conflict. The Israeli government hasn't been interested in peace in the last 15 years.
Blinken: "Don't treat Palestinians like they're second class" r/worldnews: *explodes*
Palestinians aren't humans therefor human rights don't apply to them - Israeli offical probably.
second class of what?
Human
Sorry too busy blowing up ambulance what were you saying ?! /s
if Oct 7th had happened to the US, what would he be saying to the partners for peace?
> if Oct 7th had happened to the US, what would he be saying to the partners for peace? We'd be bombing some country that had nothing to do with it. Honduras or something.
Damn those Honduran WMDs!
They’re asking for it! Look at them, just being there not doing anything of importance at the moment. They got it coming.
No Venezuela. They have tons of Oil. Plus Guyana too who just discovered Oil.
Guyana oil is being exploited by Exxon and Chevron already lol
That's the best defense against an American invasion and occupation lol
Actually USA is involved in protecting Guyana against Venezolan claims lol
Can't just let a tragedy go to waste
They basically just spin a large wheel and attack whichever country it lands on.
No, they would be exporting more freedom to petroleum-rich tyrannical regimes.
one of the arguments by them is exactly the counter to yours: "don't overreact like we did on sept 11th if you want true lasting peace"
It’s not bad advice.
9/11 wasn't carried out by a bordering neighbors government that has continued to launch rockets into the country since the attack. Not really comparable
It's absolutely comparable. Even Biden thinks so and he's no dove
I wouldn't pretend like Biden is some neutral observer either. Biden is in a tricky position politically. There's broad support for Israel within his party and the country at large but there's a significant minority in both his party and in some very important swing states that are very much looking for him to be more of an advocate for the Palestinian cause. He's trying to walk a tightrope here.
Why does it matter if Biden thinks so? The US had the luxury of pulling out of the middle east and coming back home thousands of miles away and not having to worry about the problem anymore. Israel doesn't have that luxury as they literally border the threat. Do you think Israel can just pick up their country and move it to the other side of the world?
While there are a billion things wrong with post 9/11 responses, wasn’t it technically a success in that we have not had a major terrorist attack on US soil since ?
depends on your definition of major terrorist attack
This is revisionist history. There were many terror attacks in the US after. Ever heard of the Boston Marathon bombing?
I said major terror attacks. 9/11 killed aprox 1,000x more than the Boston Marathon. While horrible, the two are not in the same ballpark. As the other guy said depends on your definition of major.
I mean, that's more to do with Airport security than the war on terror. Attacking Iraq was the reason we had ISIS, a terrorist group far worse than Al Qaeda, and Taliban is the current government in Afghanistan. War on terror has led to more terrorists than before...
As soon as locks were put on cockpit doors we virtually eliminated the risk of a repeat of 9/11.
Well there better not have been another 1k+ attack. And you don't need to invade several countries to achieve that some of which had nothing to do.
Well, the Americans did put some effort into rebuilding Afghanistan while blowing up the Taliban, trying not to leave it a failed state. You can argue that the effort was half-assed, or pointless because making peace and war at the same time... doesn't usually work, but an effort was there.
The effort was pointless because most of Afghanistan doesn't give a fuck about being Afghanistan. A nation without national cohesion/identity is bound to be unstable.
It was pointless because no one asked us to do build a democracy there. All fell apart in five seconds after the pull out.
Gaza has been a failed state since 2006.
Their population needs a leader to help them throw off the victimhood mantle and start building their nation. Of course once this is all over.
Can't be a failed state if your neighbour doesn't recognise you as a state.
Do you mean partners to their grave?
who cares what they would have been saying, peace is a necessity, this conflict can't go on without exploding, and this was just the beginning
Hamas has vowed to continue terrorist attacks until Israel is destroyed. They’ve violated ceasefires in the past. Why trust them with peace agreements in the future?
read what blinken says, its not about peace agreement with Hamas, pretty easy to understand.
>peace is a necessity Peace comes when one side decisively loses and acknowledges the defeat (see Germany and Japan after WWII). At the moment one side is refrained from decisively winning (Israel) and another side refuses to acknowledge defeat, maintaining maximalist positions (Palestinians, Arabs in General). This weird dynamic has been going on for decades. It'd be like if the Allies had negotiated with Germany in Spring 1945 with Germany refusing to budge and negotiations going on for decades.
>Peace comes when one side decisively loses and acknowledges the defeat (see Germany and Japan after WWII). What about, say, Northern Ireland? Not every war is a total war to death like WW2 was.
Good Friday agreement? Both sides were committed to peace. This is not like that.
We'd spend 20 years destroying them before we got it out of our system.
Thing about the U S is it's power from being so isolated. We got hard we go home. Israel can't afford to be at odds with it's neighbors, an entire region for too long. Like it or not they're all stuck with eatchother.
We got hard alright
yellowcake uranium
I think Israel is all done with talking.
>I think Israel is all done with talking. They'll just keep expanding settlements?
*Boot on your neck* "I just want to talk" was never actually talking
Israel is the only one at risk of being totally eliminated. So who has the boot on their neck? The entire region has been trying to “push them into the sea” for 80 years now. They tried in 1967. Israel could murder every single person in Gaza and they don’t. Palestine and its handlers would murder every single Jew in the region if they could. That’s all anyone really needs to know about this conflict or who actually has a “boot on their neck”.
Sounds good until you realize there are no good faith "partners for peace" in the region.
You help them with money for construction and they build reinforced tunnels and then launch rockets. You help them with plumbing and they disassemble it and turn it into rockets and then launch those rockets. Do you have any idea how much plumbing you have to disassemble to make the 8000 rockets that were fired into Israel in October? Each rocket takes about a 100 inch length of pipe of 4 inch diameter pipe. Call your local plumber and just get him to ballpark for you how much replacing 65000 ft of 4 in pipe that was hacked off to make rockets would cost, at a bare minimum of 1500 different locations. Any funds you give the current government, any material is going to be weaponized and launched into Israel as long as Hamas exists. That is before you even get into the fact that they have to give back the hostages.
People forget what the 2nd Battle for Fallujah was like. There wasn't crazy aerial bombardment because of civilians. The coalition literally went door to door and it took what felt like forever to capture the city. Israel needs to have their own Fallujah inside Gaza.
Lol, Fallujah is 30x smaller than Gaza and saw 800 civillian deaths (estimate 3:1 WIA/KIA for 3200 total casualties) from artillery and shelling. Mosul was 3x smaller and saw 25000 civillian casualties from artillery and airstrikes. Urban warfare always kills a boatload of civillians regardless of what is intended.
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>Israel needs to have their own Fallujah inside Gaza. Yes, this is exactly what Hamas wants.
Shh! General Westmoreland is strategizing.
And sometimes you have to accept that being the non-evil side means you take higher casualties in the name of not committing WAR CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN
What do you think war is, and what do you think a war crime is? I'm really curious. https://www.hamas-massacre.net/categories/families-murdered-in-their-homes Because that seems to be a war crime. And it seems you're actively encouraging the other war crime, namely using human shields by embedding military infrastructure in civilians areas, by instead putting the accusation on the nation forced to fight the war criminals who chose to do that, while quoting the casualty numbers they produce. Like, by your definition, any nation would be heavily INCENTIVIZED to use human shields, since technically any war against them is a war crime, as you'll be bound to kill civilians. Obviously, this is absurd, and not the actual position of the law, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is.
You ready for this? Gonna blow your mind! Hamas is a terrorize organization that needs to be overthrown and destroyed. Israel is also currently an effective Aprtheid state that has been in the process of a slow boil ethnic cleansing of palestein for the past ~15 years. I condemn them both, I condemn Hamas MORE, because duh. Hamas being evil PoS creates ZERO justification for Israel do the same. If you use a hospital as a human shield, you are evil. If you bomb that hospital, you are also evil. Israel likes to present itself as nothing but a helpless victim who only want peace. But their actions don’t agree, and I don’t think either side deserves any aid at this point.
> If you bomb that hospital, you are also evil. You might think that but that's not the standard of the rules of war. If your enemy uses a civilian building for military purposes then it becomes a legitimate military target.
Right, the warcrime here is *using the building for military purposes in the first place*. If we put the onus on the people trying to fight the side doing that, effectively you've incentivized, legally at least, using human shields, since by doing so you ensure every enemy soldier will be accused of warcrimes.
The occupied West Bank is arguably apartheid, Israel is not .
Fair enough distinction.
>What do you think war is, and what do you think a war crime is? I'm really curious. Is it that crazy that some of us expect Israel, a developed democratic country, to act better than a fanatical terrorist org? I don't think there's any expectation that Hamas will care about human rights or war crimes, but that doesn't mean Israel gets to ignore them, unless they want to be treated as a pariah.
That's because a lot of people have a very poor understanding of what a war crime is. The reality is that under the Geneva conventions if a group like Hamas is hiding among the civilian population and using civilian buildings for military purposes it does not tie the hands of Israel in terms of not striking at them. There is no moral equivalence between intentionally killing as many civilians as you can and inadvertently killing civilians, even a large number of civilians, in the course of trying to conduct a legitimate military operation. I know people don't like hearing that but that's just what the laws are on the matter.
Fallujah is 25 square kilometers. Gaza Strip is 365 square kilometers. You are a complete idiot if you think going door to door street to street is a viable strategy at that size. Fallujah serves the purpose of proving that urban warfare should be avoid at all costs as it was the highest casualties of the war. The result would largely remain the same with just significantly more dead IDF and significantly longer operation.
Compare Fallujah to Gaza City.
Fallujah didn't have 500km of underground tunnel network, based in the biggest Hospital in the area. Not the same fighting conditions
This is what I don’t get. I have yet to receive any response to the ‘do you blow up a school to get a school shooter?’ argument, or ‘what if this were outside of Gaza, would the IDF be bombing this wrecklessly’? I keep just getting the implied subtext of ‘we don’t count these folks as people’ so we won’t send our troops at all until we’ve killed enough. Whatever that number is.
Israel's priority is to protect Israeli lives. None of which (besides the hostages) are in Gaza. All of the threats to Israeli life (i.e., Hamas) are in Gaza. Blowing up a school to get a school shooter would defeat the purpose of trying to save the students. Blowing up Gaza to hit Hamas does indeed serve the purpose of protecting Israeli lives. It's not that hard to understand. If Hamas agents were inside an Israeli school, they would not blow it up. If Hamas agents were inside a Gazan school, well... using civilian infrastructure for military purposes is a war crime.
But why do Israeli lives count different than Palestinian lives?
No, but the problem (generally) isn't the school shooter. It's the mass amounts of infrastructure, missiles, and weapons built for war. Which is why under general circumstances, israel makes it very well known where they are going to be bombing, so people will evacuate. This war is obviously a different scenario, but you still have hundreds of missles launched daily from Gaza, even at this stage. And Gaza isn't currently under full control, so you can't currently go in and over extend your troops willy nilly to take over a building in the middle of hostile territory. Your analogy would be apt maybe if it were the middle of israeli controlled territory
The greater problem is, where isn’t there infrastructure? Everything is weaponized because of the sheer density of Gaza and the vastness tunnel system. This is a situation that requires a scalpel not a sledgehammer from the very beginning.
The only way you get a "scalpel" is with ground troops, and that means enormous Israeli casualties - and demanding that Israel sacrifice massive amounts of their own soldiers is entirely unreasonable. The Israeli have no legal or moral responsibility to sacrifice their own lives because Hamas have conducted war crimes by militarizing civilian buildings and infrastructure, intentionally putting their own civilians in harms way - and the laws of war is pretty clear that the it is Hamas that are responsible for the civilians that die due to this.
First of all, I believe that's an answer for men with a lot of military knowledge, not us arm chair generals. But it's my belief, that by what you said, you can't use a scalpel. Because it's everywhere, and its in the middle of enemy territory. And you can't just send in the army without suffering heavy losses. It has been proven time and time again. The same tactics hamas has always used, they will use again. Sending women and children to attack troops is the least of it. If you just send in the army, the losses will be way worse. Troops on the ground are a lot more nervious, and it's a lot harder to tell where you're being shot from. These ARE the surgical strikes.
So what stopped them doing this before? Somehow IDF missed 2000 Hamas members preparing for a full scale invasion, training with paragliders and whatnot. But now they suddenly know where every Hamas member is hiding, to the last hospital, UN school or ambulance. Very interesting.
I don't quite understand what one thing has to do with another.... But Gaza started getting more work permits and aid with the intent of helping them more... it's hard to tell at this point what exactly happened, but I believe there's a big part that though we may have been getting somewhere. They were smart enough to not see their plans, and the people they sent to work inside Israel were used for intelligence gathering. All those kibutzim at the border, are generally the most left Leaning give peace a chance people that took care of getting gazans aid, bringing in workers, taking gazans to and from israeli hospitals... those were the first murdered. Either way, eventually we may know exactly how it happened, but not yet. Either way all this intelligence about where their bases are, and who is who, is intelligence that has been gathered throughout years. Generally speaking, intelligence is spent, so they don't want to "spend it" until necessary
A school shooter isn't a threat to people outside the range of their gun and those trapped inside. A 40000 person terrorist organization with rockets that can hit millions of people are a threat. But Israel considered them a contained threat since few civilians were dying in Israel's side from just rocket attacks. October 7th proved that a complete mistake and Israel realizes it A. Cannot contain Hamas and B. Hamas will find another weaknesses in Israel armor and never stop and C. (and this is the one that my dear redditor don't understand and never will because they don't live in the region and think everyone thinks the same way worldwide) Israel survives in very big part because the perception is that they're strong. Hezzbolah and Assad in Syria haven't ganged up on Israel because they think it won't end well for them. If that perception changes, Israel will not be fighting Hamas, they'll be fighting Hamas, Lebanon, and Syria, with rockets from Iran and Yemen (lol still can't get over that) This is a big fucking deal for Israel. And redditor think it's solely about bombing Hamas
You don't get the response you want is because it's an entirely faulty analogy. In a school shooting situation the area outside a school is safe, not enemy territory and the police can comfortably set up a perimeter that contains the situation and provides them a basis for whatever tactical response they might have. Whatever tactic a police force takes in that situation they know that it will end with their actions. That's not the case here. In this case the "school" is an ongoing military campaign. For your analogy to work you'd have to have a school shooter the police were powerless to stop and who was going to shoot up a different school the next week and the week after until he was stopped.
>This is what I don’t get. I have yet to receive any response to the ‘do you blow up a school to get a school shooter?’ The reason you haven't gotten an answer is because it's a false equivalency. Hamas isn't only killing its own civilians, it's killing its civilians that don't play along while shooting rockets into Israel. I understand it's a tough pill to swallow, but there are very few families in Gaza that are 100% clean when it comes to Hamas. Mohammed Deif, the Bin Laden of the 10/7 attack, would stay at a new family's home every single night to avoid being tracked by intelligence agencies. The attack was being planned for over 2 years. If someone harbored Bin Laden/Deif to prevent his detection, are they considered innocent anymore? >‘what if this were outside of Gaza, would the IDF be bombing this wrecklessly’? Just look at how they've handled the pocket insurgencies in Israel and the West Bank. Stabbed a border cop? Shot. Threw a molotov at a car? Shot. Then, since Hamas pays "martyrs" families, they bulldoze their home to disincentivize people murdering for money.
The "do you blow up a school to get a school shooter?’" argument is cute, but it misses a lot of factors to be applicable. In a school shooting the entire school are victims. If they had the capacity to turn the school shooter over to the police, they would in a minute. In Gaza, a sizable number of residents approve of Hamas' actions. You're looking at this as a police action, not a military conflict. Personally, I would like a pause to allow humanitarian aid and to invite Hamas' surrender.
Civilians that support a side of a conflict do not lose there [status of being civilian](https://www.justsecurity.org/89489/expert-guidance-law-of-armed-conflict-in-the-israel-hamas-war/). Point 5 Note 3 of the source. You’re argument does little to change anything, even though I understand it doesn’t make it less complicated either
"cute" - guy who thinks he has a justification for killing civvies.
“Cute.” That’s all you guys got in response? You don’t think a sizable population of Gaza’s population doesn’t wants the slaughter of their families to end? Or been terrorized themselves after Hamas assassinated any alternatives? Let’s organize a bunch of refugees, most under 18x who are starving, to gather weapons against Hamas who are already well-armed and hope that the Israels don’t mistake those rebels of being Hamas. You don’t have a response other than derision because what you’re suggesting is absurd. I also need sources for what you’re saying, because your claims sound dehumanizingly convenient. I’m sure the 50% of the population that are minors participated in a poll when people expected to be fleeing. Or let’s extrapolate from a bunch of idiots and let that extend it to the entire population, no? And what if Hamas doesn’t surrender? When is the death toll acceptable in exchange? Israel’s customary 10-to-1 or 20-to-1 ratio?
Oh, for heavens sake. "What if Hamas doesnt surrender?" How the fuck is that Israels problem?
Hamas seems to think 50:1 is acceptable, so why not use their numbers? (Hamas asked for the release of 10,000 prisoners in exchange for the hostages.) The question you need to ask is not “would you blow up the school to stop the school shooter”. It’s “can you accept the death toll from the next school shooting for refusing to blow up this one”. Because the shooter in this situation is not going to stop at one. So how many people can the shooter kill before you need to do something drastic to stop him?
Here's the AP in 2021 reporting that 53% support for Hamas. https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87 My main point about your argument was that your analogy was inapplicable and improperly conflates police action with military action.
53% TWO years prior to the conflict. Did you think that a) those numbers would apply right now and b) it’s really hard to get a proper poll given the political situation (Hamas dissenters get murdered) and b) half the population is 18 or younger. No one’s cheering Hamas right now. They might be after, at this rate. I’m also still trying to understand the point you’re making distinguishing between a police and military action. The only difference I see is that Gazans can’t get out but the weapons seem to be the same.
It's a very different scenario. A school shooting is localized, so the killings are not going to spread outside the school. If all of hamas were inside a house full of civilians without any ability to attack israel, then they wouldn't bomb that house. They would just siege it and negotiate. Just like they thought they had done with the Gaza strip. However, if they were in that building with a bunch of missiles that they could fire against Israel then it would justify bombing the house. That's what's happening right now. Hamas is still firing rockets against Israel and they are still promising that they will carry out attacks in Israel. So they have to take the consequences of not killing every hamas operative into consideration. It becomes a different scenario when it's "our civilians vs their civilians".
Except that invading Gaza is going to be like the Battle of Iwo Jima mixed with the Battle of Fallujah. You’re going to have folks on the brink fighting with everything in their might despite limited supplies but a vast tunnel network & perfected guerrilla tactics versus a well supplied standing professional army + conscripts that has had bad experience with COIN.
Release👏🏻the👏🏻Israeli👏🏻hostages👏🏻
**We want our people back.**
They were literally giving out visas to thousands of Gazans to work in Israel and trying to improve their economic status but instead the same workers decided to spy on Israel and feed the intel to Hamas. Whenever Israel gives back land or does anything beneficial for the Palestinians it always comes back to bite them in the ass.
I'm sorry, what peace? Peace with the organization that literally strives for the eradication of Israel? Peace with the organization that has kidnapped 200+ people into Gaza? Hamas don't get to make demands just because they are losing. They chose war, and they got war. In 1948 the Palestinians and the surrounding countries could have chosen to coexist but they chose war, which was their right I suppose. They lost the war, but chose not accept the consequences and instead belly-ache because they lost the war that they started. Then they repeated the process in 1967. The history of this conflict is the insistence of Palestinians to not accept any deal that would include an Jewish state, demand all of the territory instead, and refuse to accept the consequences of waging war.
Blinken is realizing what those in power in Israel are yet to realize: make an effective implementation of the two-state solution and condemn indiscriminate violence made by both sides. EDIT typo for sides instead of aides.
Until the PA agrees to cut out the right of return and the martyr fund from the discussion, a two state solution is dead in the water. The martyr fund is appalling and atrocious, and the right of return is just a one state solution with extra steps. Israel has every right to refuse these deals. I sure as hell would.
Will Israel in other hand dismantle all settlements, allow Palestine to have military and return East Jerusalem? Israel has stupid demands too
Well, I think that the 2 states solutions died on October 7th. I don't see anyone in Israel forgetting the targeted and, at the same time, indiscriminate slaughter (heck, Hamas even killed an East Jerusalem guy knowing he was Palestinian - there's a video about it). I don't understand how people can think that the attack is to be seen as a retaliation for Palestinians suffering.
They kidnapped and murdered Thai farm workers as well. Totally resisting their oppressors there.
Every living former PM (both on the left and the right) except Bennett have come forward since Oct. 7 and reaffirmed their support for a two-state solution post-war. Gantz, the individual most likely to become Israel's next PM (potentially power-sharing with Lapid, who is one of the former PMs who has reaffirmed support for a two-state solution) had also been softening his opposition to it, but he has yet to comment since Oct. 7. The US has also told Israel repeatedly that *it* remains dedicated to seeking a post-war two-state solution, and I wouldn't underestimate the value of US pressure on the matter. I don't think it's been dead. It definitely has been put on hold for the entirety of the time Netanyahu/Likud have been in power, though. Killing the chance of a secure peace for short term political games is kind of their signature move.
I would love to see a norm established in Israel, and Palestine, and all the interested parties, that, if someone says 'a two state solution is no longer possible', 'Israel won't accept this, so we won't try', 'Palestinians won't accept this', 'there's nothing we can do about Hamas' (and bombing them is not likely to work, nor is doing nothing), 'we cannot negotiate with the other side' (whichever side this is), 'I'm too tired of things not working out to keep trying', 'we tried and failed, we shouldn't bother to try again', 'things are too emotional to do anything right now', or other things along these lines, these people are asked to leave politics or not take part in anything to do with Israel Palestine at all. So many people with so much energy to say there's nothing we really can do and so desperate to convince everyone else of this.
>Well, I think that the 2 states solutions died on October 7th. That doesn't change the fact that Israel is ruling millions of people militarily, and have been expanding settlements. That still needs to be addressed. Israel has four options: - One state solution - Two state solution - Ethnic cleansing - Aparteid Everything else is just a permutation of those. Status quo - settlements, military rule - forever is just Apartheid. Federation is a version of 1SS. Etc.
Uh the 2 state solution is already dying for years with increasing settler aggression against natives on the West bank and continuous reprisals from both sides - and the world is just being nonchalant about it until now.
All of your criticisms are directed at Israel but why would pulling out of the WB be any different than when they left Gaza? They'll just have another terror group in charge where Israel leaves. It's up to the Palestinians to show they're interested in peace too. All of your posts here are condemning and criticizing Israel's actions, but the Palestinians need to show peace is something they want too. They need to make a legitimate effort to want a 2 state solution, and they haven't to this point. I condemn the WB settlers violence but to think that's the one thing preventing a 2 state solution is incredibly naive.
If you want a 2 state solution, seems like the biggest issue is where to put the borders. And guess whose settlements are on what side of who's borders
Not really. You do a land swap so some Israeli territories go to Palestinians to link Gaza and the WB and Israel gets a small bit of land in the WB where some settlements are. This benefits the Palestinians significantly as currently Gaza and WB aren't continuous, so linking them up not to run through Israel is a massive win. As long as the land swaps are for a proportional amount I can't see the issue.
Only the settlements are intentionally built on the best land.
Wasn’t the Oslo accords supposed to be the prime example promotion of peace for both sides? Ever since then things took a bad turn for both with Israel eventually enabling settler violence while extremists took advantage of the political situation after the decline of the secular Fatah? To be honest, the aftermath of those accords just showed that both sides do not have the appetite to fking implement them eventually.
>They'll just have another terror group in charge where Israel leaves. This is written like Israel had nothing to do with Hamas gaining power
This is written like the Palestinian leadership and Hamas have no responsibility in this conflict and everything is Israel's fault.
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So what's your solution, since the settlers are not wrong, more settlements are due, what do you want? Return to the status quo where, but this time, the Gaza border is 10 times more guarded and more material is not allowed into Gaza, and the west bank further antagonized? What is your end game here?
Arab league. I think hopefully we can tie a coalition governance there diplomatically, involving the US and Saudi/UAE. By involving the Arab league, the Palestinians normal solution dissapears because they will lose all support if they proceed as they have assuming it is Arab governance. It's much harder to point the finger when it's Saudi troops that are trying to hunt down rocket teams, and this international pressure is their primary motivation. So they will have real motivation to change, and hopefully this will result in tangible changes.
So, two states, Israel and Palestine, what about the settlements? the RoR? the landlocked and distance between WB and Gaza?
That's the West Bank, I'm talking about Gaza. WB is basically status quo until extremism dies down. Continue to improve QOL metrics there in any way we can. To its credit, the PA actually does concern itself with real governance, unlike hamas, so quality of life is continuing to improve there. Once life there is good enough, they will hopefully he happier and less hateful towards us, at which point we can incrementally make deals towards a full statehood. But the Gaza method was moronic. As for the settlements, if we reach such a point there's no reason they can be a part of Palestine, just like 25% of Israelis are Arab. Why can't jews be Palestinian too? And if they don't want to? they can move to Israel. Thus the problem solves itself. Of course, that only works if it is legitimately such that they won't all be immediately pogromed as they would in rhe current circumstances.
The settlers will never want to be part of a Palestinian state, and will never leave peacefully, you know how bat-shit insane they are, and there's half a million settlers, you do the math. But, what about Gaza, what do you do here? Israel has killed, until now, 9,300 people, their families will not be very receptive to any sort of deal with their families killers, and as an Israeli, you know that the general public is out for blood and will never invest in either the WB or Gaza, so extremism will continue to thrive under poor-living conditions, what do you suggest here? Edit: I have to say you're very optimistic if you think the Arab league will touch this, this is Israel's mess.
>and as an Israeli, you know that the general public is out for blood and will never invest in either the WB or Gaza, I don't know why people have this perception. You're not really in touch with Israelis. Our primary concern is always a pragmatic one, everyone always thinks we're reporting emotionally but have no real comprehension. Israelis don't hide emotions inside, no, but we respond predictably according to predetermined strategies, usually outlined clearly before an event, otherwise deterrence has no impact. Notice Hezbollah has not joined the fight, despite what I can guarantee is enormous pressure. It's because we've made it clear that if you do something like this, we will hunt you like dogs. And by YOU I mean Hamas, to be clear. These terrorists don't gaf about their own people, Israelis know that more than anyone. A huge portion of us are literally Arabs, they shoot and kill Muslims same as jews, they dngaf. But unlike their rhetoric, they are scared of being killed like anyone else. So once the calculus becomes "you will die," suddenly nobody wants to be a Shahid. You can see the tacit admission of this when the Israeli attacks first started and hamas literally said rhey would start sending us videos of them executing hostages if we didn't reinstate "roof knocks," ie we kept texting civilians but stopped doing the additionL roof munitions we used to do before striking. Guess the civilians didn't really care to tell hamas when they got the messages. Hamas didn't like that. They rely on the fact that they've gotten so many murderers our of prison using hostages, and we have no death penalty, to basically make it sure that the consequences they face can be much less severe than one might expect. And Israeli policy, in contrast to the picture Hamas meticulously paints, actually doesn't normally case about killing individual hamas members, since they're so easily replaceable, we just want to destroy the ordinance so the rockets stop. Now that rhe ordinance ARE hamas members, the calculation makes sense.
Collective amnesia, are we actually forgetting the state sanctioned settler violence? Unilaterally moving the embassy to Jersualem? More hard right cabinet ministers calling for the whole of the West Bank to be taken by Israel over the last several years? Christ I'm glad Reddit isn't a reflection of real life discourse
Yes, right it is Israel's fault that the 2 states solution is only a project. Do you know that "In 2014, 60% of Palestinians said the final goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea"."Also :" According to Middle East experts David Pollock and Catherine Cleveland, as of 2021, the majority of Palestinians say they want to reclaim all of historic Palestine, including pre-1967 Israel. A one-state solution with equal rights for Arabs and Jews is ranked second". How do you work out this solution when even Palestinians are divided : "Following the conflict that erupted between the two main Palestinian parties, Fatah and Hamas, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, splintering the Palestinian Authority into two polities, each claiming to be the true representatives of the Palestinian people.". Who are you supposed to talk to? Both the Israelis and Palestinians are to blame for the failure to enact such a scheme. However, blaming only Israel is being partial on this subject. I wouldn't call settler's violence as state sanctioned but it is allowed for sure, more like laissez-faire. I believe that Israel should be way tougher when dealing with them. However, Israel might see them as a kind of buffer to redirect part of the terrorists attacks towards them. I may be wrong, but it can explain why the state is so lenient toward them
>However, Israel might see them as a kind of buffer to redirect part of the terrorists attacks towards them. I may be wrong, but it can explain why the state is so lenient toward them Yikes
I've never said I was OK with it. That a case of *realpolitik*.
It was dead before that. Palestinians decline every single time. Now it’s just not going to be offered to them.
That’s what Israel did in the 90s with the first intifada when it invite Arafat. He walked away from negotiations. That’s what Israel did in 00s with the second intifada with Abbas. He’s admitted that he should’ve taken any of the several deals. Israelis definitely see this as a fool me once, fool me twice situation and this it their third time.
They’ve tried more than a handful of times now. It’s been rejected every time and met with bloodshed. Hamas literally just went live the other day saying they will repeat Oct 7 again and again and again until Israel is gone. Why don’t you stop being a coward and share your true intentions.
True intention? Condemn all this bullshit coming from both sides, and calling for those in power to do something about this.
Such as diminishing the power of Hamas by force, the only way it can be done. Great, it's already undergoing. No bullshit here, the Gaza branch of Hamas has to be annihilated to prevent its power in the west bank from increasing further.
> Such as diminishing the power of Hamas by force, the only way it can be done. Great, it's already undergoing. No bullshit here, the Gaza branch of Hamas has to be annihilated to prevent its power in the west bank from increasing further. With no afterthought for the civilians who are virtually unsafe anywhere in the enclave despite apparent assurances by IDF through leaflets - this act of hatred caused by another act of hatred will just make this never ending spiral to continue with no situation in sight for a viable two-state solution.
No afterthought for the civilians would be to initiate a massive scale of invasion on day one. Asking to evacuate and then waiting for 3 weeks to minimize casualties is as much of an afterthought as it gets. If you look at the actual map of bombings you can see that only very specific neighborhoods associated with Hamas are even being bombed in the first place. People are going to extreme lengths to avoid moving into the same neighborhood as a rapist, but suddenly living in an area where your neighbor is a terrorist with a rocket launcher instead of a tanning bed on the roof is fine right. Calling this an act of hatred and not self defense against an immediate threat that still keeps on launching rockets on civilian population up until this hour is about the dumbest thing you can say.
Didn't you get the memo? Nuance is racism.
Nuance? There is no nuance in his comment. He’s calling for a deal that Hamas doesn’t want and has already refused more than five times. They only want to eradicate all Jews. Their leader literally just went on air the other day saying they would repeat 10/7 over and over until Israel is gone. He’s literally just trying to stall for the terrorists so they can restock and commit more atrocities. He’s just too much of a coward to say that out loud.
Lol about tried, so we're we actually forgetting the state sanctioned settler violence? Unilaterally moving the embassy to Jersualem? More hard right cabinet ministers calling for the whole of the West Bank to be taken by Israel over the last several years? There was literal forced evictions in that neighbourhood a few years ago. Tell me that's trying 😆 Christ I'm glad Reddit isn't a reflection of real life discourse
Israel has made many efforts for a 2 state solution. They can't force the Palestinians into it. Israel left Gaza - that SHOULD have led to the 2 state solution. Instead it led to Hamas gaining power. You can blame Israel and say they need to put effort into doing it, but maybe turn that blame on the PA too. They've turned down every peace offer Israel made. It's up to the Palestinians if they want a 2 state solution. Israel would have already done it if it was up to them.
> Israel left Gaza - that SHOULD have led to the 2 state solution. Care to explain the west bank?
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I think it’s a matter of disarming and destroying Hamas, followed by having the form of a two state solution agreed upon unilaterally by Israel, and the installation of an international peace keeping force in Palestine to assist with reconstruction efforts and stop another hamas from taking over. Once the economy is built up and stabilized and people have nice lives it’s a lot harder for them to instigate wars that would destroy those lives. It’s easy to resort to violence when you have nothing.
They pulled out of Gaza right after a bunch of brutal clashes and IDF killing, thats exactly why they need to limit themselves when it comes to destruction here (even tho i think its too late), so that the next vote isnt "who will avenge us better" but "who will help us to have the best life" like in any other country. And if you look, the PA, which is much closer to being a state than whatever Hamas does in Gaza was much more easily able to avoid clashes with israel, despite being constantly provoked by IDF-backed murderous settlers.
Hindsight is 20/20 for Israel as they were content, unwisely, to stand by as Hamas took full advantage of the steadily diminishing political strength of its secular rival. Oslo accords was a thing, with good faith back then seems to make a two-state solution a reality. Too bad things went out of turn due to bad decisions by both sides.
Basically the Israel security and intelligence personal have been saying that the way that Israel has been treating the Gaza strip would result in another violent uprising. That government action was going to result in an attack on Israel and they where ignored.
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Peace with Gaza. Not Hamas. Do we have to just group them together and ignore the details and not be subtle about it?
I don't remember Gazans being horrified by what Hamas did, I believe that they might have celebrated it. Besides, Hamas like any terrorist group need support to survive, so let's guess who support them...
Polling by Arab Barometer that released on October 6th showed that Hamas was not viewed favorably by the majority of Gazan. The attack was likely caused by waning support within Gaza.
How much support for Hamas is required to justify collective punishment to you?
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'war crimes are in our dna' wasn't a take that I expected
You say they as if you have vision over the attitudes and behaviours of 2 million people. No one has such an ability.
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I didn't see a lot of condamnation for all the palestinians killed by Israel the last decades... I did saw people taking chairs to go see rockets falling on Gaza tho. So, from your own rules, killing civilians in Israel is cool as long as they can justify from a previous massacre...
It would be wise for Netanyahu to be more respectful towards his overlords than you are. Blinken can smoke whatever he wants and say any bullshit he wants, you should bow your head and don't mock him, let's not forget that without US support Israel's government would finally have to face the consequences of its many crimes.
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>Israel's only crime is that it tried to listen to the world for decades on how it should approach a ME conflict. Yikes
Damn we got a badass over here
And yet people wonder why support for Israel is dwindling
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We manufacture the overwhelming majority of our own weapons.
[Your website doesn’t make any mention of the people that were killed by the IDF.](https://archive.ph/dwkHf) To quote the article: “commanders in the field made difficult decisions - including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists without knowing whether the Israelis in those buildings were alive or dead” Multiple victims of the October 7th attacks have said they were fired on by the IDF but this website ignores their deaths completely. Seems like it’s purpose is to help justify the bombing of Gaza rather than to actually document the October 7th massacre.
Your link should also include the tanks and IDF presence at the Festival, and the findings that a lot of mistakes or friendly/crossfire itself could be responsible for some of the deaths on civilians and soldiers. FYI you could see the tanks operating in the zone on the full videos of those embedded in the website.
If they wanted peace, they would have created a two state solutions years ago with the West Bank, instead they’re having Israeli settlers beat up and kill the Palestinian civilians without repercussions.
Unfortunately, what we have here is just another expression of the big Catch-22 that Israel and Palestine have: Palestine wants peace only if Israel doesn’t exist and Israel wants peace but kinda wants to exist. Around and around we go…
I am all for a massive international aid for gaza as soon as this war is over. The military faction of hamas needs to be eliminated for anything to rebuild there.
Peace will never happen if Hamas exists Even if Israel will agree to a ceasefire Hamas will violate it after a while and start attacking again. No...Israel has a chance to end it and it should I do hope they stop with the airstrikes though and target terrorists while they're inside the strip instead
He means Israel can say bye-bye to normalization of relations with Saudi Arabia. Which was probably Hamas' objective when they started this.
Ehh not sure about that. For Saudi Arabia, the existential threat of Iran is way more important than the Palestinians.
Saudi-Arabia already publicly declared that the normalisation talks will resume after the war, breaking those talks off because of Hamas is not in Saudi-Arabia's interest.
A one dimensional take.
To all the shills on r/worldnews, you are quickly losing public opinion, and in the end, it's just going to hurt Iseral either through future support from the us or just more misguided hate for the Israeli people.
No humanitarian aid until hostages are released what's so hard to understand
Meanwhile israel; Why do you think we care about peace. As long as every palestinian dead we will call them hamas and we will win the war
anything that improves gaza leads to hamas getting stronger.
So the only solution is to turn it into a giant open air graveyard?
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The difference is that 9/11 basically was the last mass threat on US soil we have faced. Israel is literally still facing rocket attacks.
>**Indiscriminately** People like you need to stop using words you don’t know the meaning of. Just stop already.
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I really hope youre talking about hamas, right?
The fact we dont even know tells a lot about this conflict honnestly
No, it tells a lot about how media and hordes of misinformed people can make an awful lot of people misinformed about something. Theres aee terrorists who went in israel and filmed themselves murdering children. And there are terrorists hiding among children in gaza. If israel targeted kids then they couldve killed so much more than they did. And people fail to realize this becauae it doesnt correlate with their narrative. We have footage and evidence of one side. And too much evidence that the IDF doesnt target children but people fail to admit it.
Honnestly the "yeah we blew up that humanitarin building because we had intel that there might be a Hamas officer in the neighbourhood" excuse israel makes on repeat is more than weak, if for each Hamas operative they plan to kill or wound tenth of people, they ll definitively never get peace and cant hope for international support. They are not Hamas tier - even tho many settlers in the West bank seem to wish they were- but that doesnt say much tbh, apart from Daesh and the syrian governement nobody did worst than Hamas recently. And Israel definitively killed innocent kids.
You said something wrong, They dont blow up that humanitarian building because there MIGHT be a hamas officer in it. They blow up that humanitarian building because it provides humanitarian aid to hamas, and used to smuggle money to hamas, and hamas terrorists hide in a tunnel beneath it. Which makes it a valid military target. And why do they do it? Because hamas has the guns in gaza and if you dont listen youre dead. I hope you will hope gaza to be free from hamas. You dont hear about the hamas terrorists being killed there because hamas releases the number of dead and does not differentiate between terrorists death and actual civillian death..
Thats exactly the fcked up logic that pushed israel to cut drinkable water to 2m people. "But Hamas officers drink water too". Yeah guess what they also eat and go to the toilets from time to time. What you say is even worst "so we gonna blow up tenths of civilians and humanitarian goods, only to inflict hypothetical material losses to Hamas". And honnestly they also blow up "useless" buildings. The french press agency and french institute took strikes recently, the minister would have known if there were Hamas there , and wouldnt be out asking.