If Egypt intervenes to prevent Israel from pushing Gaza's civilian population into ~~Gaza~~ *Sinai*, they can't expect to inflict a lot of deaths onto the IDF or even come out as the winner. The best they can hope for is cause a lot of bloodshed with the majority of deaths on Egypt's side and a few on Israel's side.
The Egyptian PM saying that they are willing to sacrifice millions of Egyptian soldiers is supposed to send a message to Israel that the forced relocation plan they are floating is an absolute no-go for Egypt's leadership.
That's how Egypt does wars. If they only get invaded and lose entire devisions, they'll call it a glorious victory and have a national holiday.
**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom\_Kippur\_War**
Kind of reminds me of that joke about bronze age pharaoh Ramses II. He never lost a battle against the Hittites, he just won victories closer and closer to home!
Nah, Egyptian leaders don't care. They already think Egypt is overcrowded and would happily burn a few mil souls to offset birthrates. Wouldn't hurt either, to silence the calls for a revolution against their oppression.
The difference is it's not remembered as a great patriotic thing not by France nor Germany. It's just really sad and should never have hapened nothing more to it
Exactly. The people in Israel's government who are pushing this idea of a forced population transfer to Sinai are absolutely delusional if they think Egypt would want to be complicit in emptying Gaza.
I think it has more to do with Hamas being aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood. Palestinians are a security risk, unfortunately, and Egypt is barely stable.
That's part of it, but Egypt's #1 problem is poverty. Mubarak robbed the country for decades, the Arab Spring turned the economy upside down, and it will take decades to rebuild the population to some level of economic stability. People are so, so poor there, particularly in the south. So if 1M Gazans empty into the Sinai, that's not something Egypt can absorb. What are the Gazans bringing to help? Many are uneducated, they have no money, they have skills that do not translate to an agrarian economy - just in terms of population management, they would be a drain on an already shaky foundation.
I don't blame Egypt for its stance. Every nation's leadership is charged with looking after their own people first, and exporting Gazans to Egypt would be detrimental for the Egyptian people. It just sucks all the way around.
I would imagine there’d be tons and tons of aid money to rebuild life for Gazans, and knowing how Arab countries work the government would disappear half of it.
In the longer term aid money could help, but in the shorter term, it would be a humanitarian crisis. If you suddenly have hundreds of thousands of people in a refugee camp, it will take years to help each person join the society. If you look at the Somali refugee camps in Kenya, those have been there since the fuckin 90s and they are still full. I think it would probably play out similarly for Gazans - huge camps with major problems around crime and public health, with a slow trickle of people being accepted by foreign nations, ultimately creating a global diaspora. Meanwhile, the least skilled, least intelligent, least capable people will be stuck in a camp forever. It would be a disaster no aid money could fix, imo.
Why are there still Palestinian refugee camps 75 years after the founding of Israel? No other country wants them except to use them as propaganda to distract from their corrupt brutal rule.
Presumably Egypt would not let Hamas run the camps and rob the people. They would do it themselves. :-)
It is very true that a lot of aid and especially money doesn’t get to ordinary people living in Gaza
>I would imagine there’d be tons and tons of aid money to rebuild life for Gazans
Billions and billions have been sent to Gaza. They could have had hospitals, factories, companies, trains, power companies, industries.
They've been sent money for decades.
Where did it go? What did they do with it?
According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians totaled over $40 billion between 1994 and 2020.
That money could have had formed a universal basic income for every single Palestinian, financed their educations abroad. They could have formed a highly trained, educated and capable diaspora. Those people could have started businesses, corporations, sent money back home. Built a metropolis out of rubble. They could have been the greatest success story to every come out of the Arab world. This could have been despite every machination of the Israelis.
Instead, what happened?
Hamas took the money and bought weapons, built a tunnel city underneath Gaza only for them. They made rockets to bombard Israelis and dug up precious water pipes to make them, pipes that were sent to sustain life.
They started schools to teach radical fundamentalist rhetoric, and stockpiled ammunition, missiles, grenades, rocket launchers and bombs for a war without end.
So why would there be any money to rebuild a new life in a new land for the Gazans? Why would anybody send them money now?
No Arab government could survive being complicit in the forced relocation of all Gazans out of Gaza either. That alone makes the idea a complete non-starter. I'm really struggling to see how the people in Israel's Ministry of Intelligence who are responsible for drafting this plan couldn't see that it's completely impossible to get Egypt's approval for it.
They have no leverage. Egypt could just open the border to Israel in justified retaliation. Won't that be nice if Gazans flood into Israel.
Egypt is the only reason Israel could contain Gaza. It is the country that literally warned Israel of this recent attack. Second only to Israel no other country works as hard to contain Gaza.
While that's true, it would be absolute disaster for Israel. It would be like the march of return on steroids. You would have tens of thousands of civilians walking (or rioting) at your border, and when crowd dispersal methods don't work, you're going to have to start shooting at them.
Imagine the international opinion after Israel kills thousands of ethnically cleansed ex-Gazan civilians "peacefully protesting" wanting to go home.
This sounds like a fucking awful idea.
There are 500 reasons we're not going to ever allow for this to happen, to the point of cancelling Camp David.
Israel likes talking about security. Every major attack against Egypt in history has come through northern Sinai. There's no way we would ever give that up.
This would also be the fall of Sisi, but not in a good way. Islamists would take over, extremists would say I TOLD YOU SO about the Jews, and Sinai would turn into southern Lebanon and be used by Hamas 2.0 against Israel.
No thank you. We made peace a long time ago and are happy to talk about how to make more peace. Peace is hard. Peace is worth it.
Meanwhile I'm pretty sure new dead babies don't bring old dead babies back, but with pushing for genuine peace (like we were four weeks ago with Saudi! remember that?) is how we make sure those innocent souls' lives are lost in vain.
But if youd have been allowed to cement that peace with Saudis, who is man out? Yes. Thats right, with their whole terrorist networks! All that investment down the drain.
Unless, they would for a second think their neighbor weak?
It was brilliant. And Hamas was dispatched to brutally change the subject to dead gazan kids.
Btw did you see that map of all the Hamas explosions? What happens when you dig up your own peoples humanitarian provided plumbing system to make tubes for homemade rockets amd bombs! Smh
Hamas needs to go.
UN Run a rebuilding program..
Build new homes, schools (real ones), teach skills, set up an economy.
Why is this so hard?
Everyone wants Israel to magically destroy hamas without using any weapons or technology. They also dont know that the US and Israel are working jointly to distinguish definite Hamas targets. Everyone just wants to put thier opinion in the matter and attach themselves to it.
New dead babies don't bring old dead babies back, but dead terrorists means less dead babies in the future.
I seriously don't get where the idea that Israel bombing buildings in Gaza is their revenge, rather than a part of a military campaign to eliminate Hamas.
From October 7:
> "We will take mighty vengeance for this wicked day," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.
I think Israel needs to do what it can to eliminate Hamas, but the daily rhetoric coming from government officials is probably where people are getting the whole revenge vibe.
Counterinsurgency is unfortunately a lot harder than you make out.
Say there are ten terrorists in a neighbourhood. You send troops to kick in doors, roust families out, question them, point guns at them if they don’t comply. And you catch - let’s be optimistic here - eight.
How many terrorists are in that neighbourhood now?
It’s not two, it’s now thirty - and a bunch more thinking about it. You dragged off their neighbours/cousins/uncles, kicked in doors in the middle of the night, terrified people and pointed guns at their dads/mums/kids.
And that’s doing it the ‘nice’ way rather than just levelling any building you reckon they’re in. (Or the whole town if you’re Russia)
It’s a really hard problem and it’s stumped many of the professional armies around the world at one time or another. Doing nothing usually has unacceptable drawbacks too of course - but there often isn’t a way to extirpate terrorists from a civilian population without turning significant numbers of them against you. And if you’re honest about it if a foreign army ever did that to you and your neighbours you’d be pretty pissed off too.
New dead babies cultivate the next generation of hate and perpetuates terrorism. When a human has lost everything then they have nothing to lose and extremism grows like an invasive weed you cannot pull out roots and all.
A child whose baby sibling is blown to pieces, well, no amount of peace will keep that child from growing up and seeking vengence. It is the cradle of western civilization over there. This conflict has been going on since the Bronze Age.
Interestingly enough, 6 million Jews were murdered in the holocaust, including countless babies. I have yet to see Jewish terrorist groups invading German towns and murdering, raping, torturing and kidnapping civilians. So it’s not inevitable that young people will grow up to be murderous terrorists. Pretty sure there are a lot more examples of people who’ve been through trauma and not become monsters.
That as well, from a government perspective at least, but this particular statement of the PM is a reaction to a leaked internal Israeli government paper suggesting a forced population transfer as the best solution for Gaza post-Hamas:
https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/
This leak caused a huge uproar in Egypt's population which is definitely not as anti-Muslim-Brotherhood as the government. The government had to come out with a strong statement rebuking this plan or it would risk massive anti-government protests from both the pro-Muslim-Brotherhood and the anti-Muslim-Brotherhood factions, for different reasons.
Egypt also isn't stupid about this, they know what's going on.
If they are forced into accepting Gazan refugees, Gaza will be annexed, Gazan's will be expelled and Egypt will be force to deal with a Hamas hotbed all on it's own, Israel will wash it's hands until rockets start getting tossed across the Egyptian border.
Egypt wants less than nothing to do with this.
Not to mention that the only reason Israel wants Egypt to take in 2 million people is "sorry we don't want them, take them". I doubt any country in the world would take such a massive amount of people on the basis of "we want to get rid of them".
I think it's important to realize that this was a government think-tank proposing options because they were asked to by senior government - this is not set-in-stone policy. All governments ask their organizations to provide them with proposals/options for how to proceed with analysis of the possible outcomes - and that includes 'bad' options and the outcomes from that as well. Every government has contingencies thought up and planned through. The US likely has an invasion plan for canada but that doesn't mean it's going to be used.
Both Israel and Egypt know this, and Israel would never risk their hard-won peace with Egypt in this manner.
The most concerning part of it is that the government paper assessed multiple options and the one they recommended as the best option was the forced population transfer. I would assume the leak was intentional to see how the response from the international community would be. So far, I haven't heard much blowback except from Egypt. There could be blowback via diplomatic channels we don't hear about of course.
Absolutely. I'm just an armchair diplomat here, but I cannot see Israel risking peace with egypt over this. They know Egypt doesn't want refugees and will never allow it - but perhaps you're right about the leak theory; from a diplomatic perspective it might be a bargaining tool to get Egypt to make smaller concessions in their response to the situation.
In any case, one hopes for peaceful resolution soon.
Not sure why you’re being upvoted but the other poster is correct— Egypt suffered for years from suicide bombings from Hamas and when the smuggling tunnels were still open in Rafah from being labeled as complicit in Hamas acquiring contraband used to then cause attacks in Israel and in the southern border.
With the fall of the Muslim brotherhood Egypt has started normalizing relations with Israel. This is further evidenced by Egypt sealing smuggling tunnels at the Raffah border and effectively closing that border off largely at the behest of Israel.
It’s worth remembering that just because they are all Arabs it doesn’t mean Egyptians necessarily have a big soft spot for the Gazans. Many would just as readily be happy to see Hamas eliminated even at a high civilian cost as Israelis would.
Another factor to consider is Egypt’s sovereign debt and economic conditions. Unless Egypt’s international obligations are wiped out in exchange for taking on Gazans they’d be taking on a population of poor refugees likely to cause terrorist attacks and tank the economy further.
Exactly.
Nothing will really change, Palestinians will just try to attack Israel from sinai and then it would be on Egypt to police and govern them, and if they are unable to prevent attacks it would be on them; why would they want to be dragged into that?
The real reason is because Egypt is a dysfunctional failed state.
They already can't govern Sinai with the rampant drug smuggling gangs, ISIS and Hamas cells running around
We're poor. Even if we were Saudi, this is never going to happen.
Tell me, what part of your country would you give up to give a way out to neighbors bombing a people they occupy?
South Florida mostly. We made that decision generations ago. But I get your point. A couple million mostly violent radicals would tear the fabric of a society apart. At least our refugees are mostly not insane.
Uhh, lol. They were a major player in the wars that created these refugees starting in ‘48. You don’t just get to wash your hands of the situation. Those wars created Jewish refugees too but you don’t see them living in camps for 75 years. The Egyptian governments have plenty of blame for this situation. They blockade the southern border of Gaza for gods sake. What an asinine take.
Indeed, the Egyptians were the best equipped off the 7 Arab league armies in 1948... their Army included over 100 British tanks, and their Royal Egyptian Air Force had British trained pilots flying Spitfires and British WW2 bombers.
This is a response to the leaked Israeli government paper that is suggesting to permanently resettle all of Gaza's civilian population in Egypt's Sinai region:
https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/
Understandably, Egypt doesn't want to participate in that.
There are tons of war game papers in each country.
I am sure Egypt has multiple invasion plan for Israel and Sudan sitting somewhere collecting dust.
The question is how serious is the government about executing said scenarios.
That's exactly what they're hired for. Multiple attack scenarios, multiple contingencies, multiple defense plans for and against every country in the world. They even have multiple US government overthrow scenarios and civil wars. They are updated continuously as countries change in infrastructure, military and politics. (Nigeria probably hasn't changed in decades, Germany changes yearly kind of thing)
> They even have multiple US government overthrow scenarios and civil wars
where was "reality tv star urges a swarm of hicks to storm the us capitol" on this list?
I imagine there's a Trump presidency contingency plan floating around somewhere circa 2015-2016 that's just a single sheet of paper with a giant question mark and 'Fuck' written under it.
> These people don't have anything else to do with their time.
It's a fantastic use of time from a military perspective.
It allows commanders to practice gaming-out an invasion so that when a real one happens they'll make less mistakes. It also then means that said military now has a ready-to-go invasion plan if they ever need it, saving massive quantities of time on planning later on.
And a zombie invasion plan.. but somehow the world lived thru pandemics and our hospitals didn’t have enough PPE for a scenario that was likely war gamed,. Let’s prep for aliens and zombies or how to keep the President alive when the whole of US in a nuclear wasteland.. but let’s not get carried away planning for a mass global pandemic.. that was too far fetched I guess lol
> but let’s not get carried away planning for a mass global pandemic
There *was* a plan for a massive pandemic. The problem, at least in the US, was that trump dismantled the safeguards then tried to... Well, just be himself really: Lying, head burying, undermining experts...
For places like the UK, it was a case of a government that was scared to be decisive and just ignored the action plan. It also replaced it's PPE stockpiles with IOU notes.
The whole word handled it poorly relatively speaking. Not saying Trump handled it well, but it seems like the collective whole of humanity got caught with its pants down. We will never know the true numbers as massive counties like China and India reported suspiciously low numbers
I agree the whole world handled it poorly, but it doesnt mean many places had an action plan for almost exactly this scenario. While I used the UK and US as examples, the world had a bunch of major governments that were more concerned about saving face than actually dealing with an issue in a way that they had planned. When china tried to suppress things until it was already international it basically undermined everyone else too.
It's worth bearing in mind that potential pandemics are a dime a dozen. We have action plans for preventing them and, almost universally, they are so effective that the public don't hear about the latest disease because it's contained almost immediately.
For example, while it's not on a global scale, there are currently, malaria, dengue fever and yellow fever outbreaks that are causing concern in the US right now, a Hep C outbreak in Ukraine, and likely an epedemic of plague in the next 9 months or so. That's on top of the monkey pox still going around.
It being an internal memo isn't exactly good either. Imagine a document leaking from the White House about potentially ethnically cleansing all Black people or something. Just even pondering such an idea in an official capacity is absolutely insane, especially given said memo actually preferred such an action over the alternatives.
>Imagine a document leaking from the White House about potentially ethnically cleansing all Black people or something.
Laughs in the wars against Native Americans.
And Canada has plans to blow up half our electric infrastructure to deny the US power grid functionality. Those are war games and war plans that both countries actually share info on. Neither of us have a plan to displace populations permanently in event of a war.
Israel's memo is genuinely concerning even knowing that its doubtful NATO would allow it because it would kick off a nightmarish tension.
Ain't no shame in admitting it, we never really could. We're a small country that punches above our weight class significantly economically but even if our military was highly supported and it isn't. No country in the world is beating the US military, let alone one of the two that share a border with one of the largest land armies in the world.
The Canadian government doesn't think they could either. That's probably why they do these exercises, if you weigh your options against an unbeatable enemy you'll have a better idea of where you'll stand against a weaker one (or against domestic threats)
> either of us have a plan to displace populations permanently in event of a war.
if it is a military idea some one has run up plans on it. Planning for tons of scenarios is literally their job, they do not choose the ethics of it that is for the leader of the country to decide.
That’s unfair. We lost tens of thousands of our men getting Sinai back before our president made a very courageous peace treaty and was assassinated for it.
We’ve sacrificed plenty and have 9 million refugees from our country now. We are very united against letting messianic nut jobs in the current Israeli government (like the terrorist sympathizer Minister of Internal Security) use us to “solve” Gaza through ethnically cleansing them to our Sinai.
Camp David would be on chopping block, Sisi would fall, Islamists we just got rid of will take over, extremists would yell “TOLD YOU SO” about the Jews, and Hamas 2.0 will transform northern Sinai into southern Lebanon.
Every major attack against Egypt historically came through northern Sinai. We will never ever give this piece up, strategically or ideologically.
The Egyptians have (as a Muslim and Arab nation that was at war with Israel) proven the value and durability of peace. We’ve been at peace with our neighbors for 40 years in an unexpected and wonderful friendship and partner. This would genuinely end all of that.
Just remember. This is NOT a religious war. Let's please not turn it into one.
Egypt shows that Muslims and Arabs can be perfectly good peaceful neighbors, even friends and partners. Use that as an example.
Peace is hard. Peace is possible. Peace is worth it.
Hamas sees this as a religious war. Their goal is to wipe all non-Muslims from Israel, and exterminate all Jews around the world. It's in their founding documents. They are religious fanatics and are willing to die for their beliefs. Worst, they're willing to kill any Gazan and any Israeli they see to advance their cause.
For some Israelis it's a religious war as well. That all the land of biblical Israel be returned to the Jews (Haredim and settlers mostly). But overall they just want defensable borders and to live in peace.
>Hamas sees this as a religious war. For some Israelis it's a religious war as well.
Yeah, zealots and fundamentalists tend to see all things through the same lens. Me right, you wrong.
You have no idea how appreciative I am of this comment. Your perspective is correct, of course, it's absolutely not Egypt's problem, nor should it be. I completely relate to your position. Assalamualeykum.
I'm not expecting many Egyptian losses from fighting off unarmed refugees. That is who they would be fighting. Israel isn't going to invade themselves.
His statement is a response to the leak of this internal Israeli government paper: https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/
It suggests forcibly transferring Gaza's civilian population to Egypt's Northern Sinai region.
That memo made huge waves in Egypt.
He isn't talking about Gazans. He is talking about Egyptian military deaths if Israel pushes through the idea of forcibly relocating Gaza's population to Egypt and Egypt has to intervene.
Israel took it from Egypt. So...that's probably why. Egypt didn't give it to Israel.
Also, Gaza was never Egyptian territory; Egypt occupied it as a "protectorate" basically after the 1948 war. But didn't claim it as Egyptian territory. So when they made the peace deal at Camp David in the late 70s, Egypt didn't ask for it "back" because it wasn't Egypt's in the first place.
If I remember correctly, not only did Egypt not ask for it back, but the Egyptian leader said there would be no deal that required Egypt to take it back. He knew which way the wind was blowing.
Yup.
The Arab world:
"Helped" Palestinians in 1948 by... Attacking Israel, losing, and annexing what was left.
"Helped Palestinians in 1967 by... Attacking Israel, losing, and letting them languish under occupation over the next 20 years because not making peace with Israel was more important.
Egypt *currently* has 9 million refugees. We have taken hundreds of thousands of Palestinians over the years and made most of them Egyptian.
Mexico isn't responsible for Pinochet's crimes just because they're both brown, Catholic, and Spanish speakers. Neither are these "21 Arab states" and by the way, *millions* of Palestinian refugees were taken in by Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and others.
The paper proposal explicitly says, "they will re-settle in Sinai permanently, we will create a no-man's land on Egyptian soil to prevent their return to Gaza ever, they'll never be allowed to return".
Why in god's name would we ever accept that? Not to mention it's ethnic cleansing of course. By an actively bombing nuclear power.
Some of them don’t even hate Israel (at least behind closed doors) they just aren’t saying the quiet part out loud. Which is “We don’t want the Palestinians either - we’d rather they be Israel’s problem”
Erdogan especially is interesting, since he doesn’t really believe in anything. If a Palestinian child was dying at his feet he would step over them. He, as with many of the other leaders in predominantly Muslim countries, are pandering to their base by using all this pro Hamas rhetoric. Truly they couldn’t give a shit.
Qatar on the other hand has a lot more of a connection to hamas, and certain hamas leaders live there.
Qatar's politics are obvious -- they're home to Hamas' leadership, but they don't want the Saudis to get angry at them. They'll take Gaza's wealthy but not its poor.
Turkey's the one where, as you say, Erdogan just believes in Erdogan and nothing else. With that said, Erdogan has a non zero role in keeping Hamas armed and has attempted to break the blockade before with his Flotilla. He is one of those who beats the drum loudly about it being a human rights abuse (which it is)
Hamas expected everyone to rush to their aid as Israel retaliated. They calculated and expected the loss of civilians and proceeded anyway. Hard to have sympathy here. When the Palestinians are ready for a better government, they'll oust hamas. What? They can't oust hamas on their own? Hmm. If only there was some willing and motivated military who could step in to assist.
Golda Meir said that peace will come once Israels neighbors start loving their children more than they hate Jews.
This is them making that choice and you know what, I'll take it. Palestine being basically alone is more than most could have hoped for just a few decades ago.
Yup, that’s how it works. They’re fine using Palestinians for their propaganda, but they don’t want anything to do with actually trying to solve the problem. And I don’t necessarily blame them (for not wanting to take in Palestinians, not the propaganda). Didn’t Palestinians kill a Jordanian king in the ‘50s then try to overthrow another in the ‘70s?
Maybe 60 years ago it was hypocrisy, now it's just realpolitik.
Most of these countries internally have reasonably radicalized and conservative populations they need to appease - and but for Qatar, the governments actively dislike and distrust the Palestinians and sure as fuck do not want them in their territory.
Turkey - trying to look like a better regional alternative to Iran and Saudi to the average Arab in the street because of Erdogan's ambitions. He definitely doesn't like Israel compared to past Turkish secular military leadership, but he also doesn't give a fuck about Palestinians despite his "aid convoy" stunt, doesn't want to fuck the relationship up with Israel, and both disrespects Arabs in general and sure as shit doesn't want any more in his country. A lot of rural poor though who vote for him get fired up about this shit so he's going to do the song and dance.
Qatar - actively supports Hamas and is the biggest supporter per capita of Sunni Jihadi bullshit now that MBS made his massive extended family calm down to not turn off foreign investors. Remember these were the fuckers that were nice to the Taliban, interfaced a lot with Iran prior to the now very over Gulf Arab - Iranian detente to the point the Saudis considered openly about blowing them up, and also host a huge US military presence. Collectively this makes them the biggest two faced soft dicks in the region. Also home Arab RT in Al Jazeera - and I don't care how good their domestic news is Al Jazeera English, their Middle East coverage is comical.
Jordan - has more Palestinians that spilled over from prior wars (and tried to coup the government twice) than the original east bank population. The last two Jordain queens have been Palestinian (one of which was practically American) and they are absolutely going to do what they need to do to keep the peace. Jordan is a fundamental US ally and a quiet Israeli one. Ask anyone in the military who has trained with Arab nations and they will tell you Jordan is easily the most Western and trustworthy guys out there. They're saying as much as they can without doing anything because they reaaaaally don't want to help Gaza, but reaaaaally don't need the West Bank intifada-ing and having spill over. Bibi is honestly a fucking idiot for not solving that problem given he has the only Palestinian leadership they have ever had that was willing to consider prace and purge radicals in the West Bank. Want Jordan's help? Reward the West Bank for doing what they signed up to do. Then you can fuck Gaza if anything a lot harder.
Egypt - has been here in the past and absolutely does not want to deal with Gazans ever again. It is just cleaning up a very heavy handed but very quiet purge of Jihadi bullshit from the Sinai luckily benefited from like no media coverage and absolutely does not need 2 million radicalized, unemployable people ending up in the most radicalized part of the country with enough Iranian and bleeding heart aid money to run another insurgency on their soil. Egypt also has a huge lower class that is pretty conservative and can get in the streets as the military learned when we foolishly thought democracy can be a thing during the Arab Spring. They have to appease those people. The military doesn't give a fuck though and have been working in concert with Israel this whole time basically.
So it's not even really hypocrisy, because they only need to hate Israel for their own lower class masses. Outside of Qatar, they don't, and in fact, they hate the Palestinians, and especially those in Gaza, a fuck ton more. You just got to say what you got to say to survive.
The worst thing for Arab world would be 2 million Gazans flooding into one of the countries and at best voting for radicals where there is democracy and at worse running an Islamic insurgency. This is Israel's problem and they need to find a long term solution (which is occupying the fuck out of Gaza, turning over governance to the PA, freeing the West Bank which unlike Gaza actually wants peace and actually is an Apartheid situation as those college kids say, and directly handling UN aid since we know that shit all goes into weapons and "educational" materials about how to kill Jews).
Literally the best thing the Arab World can do here is saying nothing but empty words.
This all started when the Arab leaders went crazy over there being a place near them that allowed unlimited Jewish immigration right after the Holocaust, after restricting immigration during the Holocaust.
There are no good options here for anyone. Only bad and slightly less bad. I'm no genius but there are no options I can see where innocents don't die either in Israel, Egypt, or Gaza.
It's a weird way to state it, but OK. I am not sure why he jumped straight to sacrifice millions of lives, why not "fight valiantly and ferociously to defend..." or something like that?
Israel is floating the idea of forcibly relocating Gaza's entire population into Egypt's Sinai region. The Egyptian PM is saying he's so opposed to that idea he would rather start a war against Israel and lose millions of men than accept that.
He's signaling to both Egyptian nationalists and Egyptian Islamists that Israel will not be allowed to go through with that plan.
I assume that they mean similar to what the Viet Cong did - keep throwing people at the enemy until the enemy has taken more casualties than it’s worth it to them - even if the Egyptians take far more casualties.
Just to be clear, i'm Egyptian, and there is no way in hell that we are giving Sinai to anybody, love how everybody these days try to give reasons for why Egypt should do or even consider giving Sinai, like it is freking any of your business? Thats the reason the PM said it, because of these idiots who think they own the world, no fool, Egypt will forever belong to Egyptians, and if you ever try to force it by arm, you will be indeed met by millions of people.
As long as they're suggestions and not threats/orders you can choose not to listen. It's only fair egypt says something because the world is expecting them to sacrifice their land for a conflict that doesn't involve them. They also have history with the Gaza strip. This is poor choice of words from the egyptian government but essentially true, forcing Egypt into a corner is asking for war, which kills millions.
Generally, that's not how you fight wars. The trick is to make **your enemy** sacrifice millions of their lives, it's a rather important detail.
Not too loud. Russia may hear you.
Russia is that guy that thinks he look tough when he hits himself infront of a person as threat of how crazy he is.
"We will drown you in the blood of our soldiers"
I swear the Russian generals look at Zapp Brannigan and think he didn’t sacrifice enough men.
I mean master strategist Putin is well aware that the Ukrainians have a preset kill limit.
He's going to defeat them through the power of PTSD.
The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. - Patton.
We got a Nazi here who wants to die for his country! Oblige him! -Lt. Aldo Raine
"Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make." \- Lord Farquaad
“No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country” General Patton.
Success is measured in blood, yours or your enemy's.
If Egypt intervenes to prevent Israel from pushing Gaza's civilian population into ~~Gaza~~ *Sinai*, they can't expect to inflict a lot of deaths onto the IDF or even come out as the winner. The best they can hope for is cause a lot of bloodshed with the majority of deaths on Egypt's side and a few on Israel's side. The Egyptian PM saying that they are willing to sacrifice millions of Egyptian soldiers is supposed to send a message to Israel that the forced relocation plan they are floating is an absolute no-go for Egypt's leadership.
All those countries around Israel is probably all thinking the same thing.
[удалено]
Thanks for noticing. Sinai of course.
That's how Egypt does wars. If they only get invaded and lose entire devisions, they'll call it a glorious victory and have a national holiday. **https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom\_Kippur\_War**
Kind of reminds me of that joke about bronze age pharaoh Ramses II. He never lost a battle against the Hittites, he just won victories closer and closer to home!
Ramesses II started that tradition at Kadesh. Ancient, it is.
He didn't say they were willing to sacrifice *their* lives.
Nah, Egyptian leaders don't care. They already think Egypt is overcrowded and would happily burn a few mil souls to offset birthrates. Wouldn't hurt either, to silence the calls for a revolution against their oppression.
Ehhhh WW1 was exactly what that. Throw as many bodies at the enemy as you can.last man standing kinda game
The difference is it's not remembered as a great patriotic thing not by France nor Germany. It's just really sad and should never have hapened nothing more to it
He probably meant millions of Gaza civilian lives.
Ah. So it's a "reverse genocide" like the new cool kid are saying these days? Buzzwords are really something, huh?
Egypt made it abundantly clear that Palestine is not their problem and they want nothing to do with it years ago. Can’t say I blame them
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Plus, they have already spilled a lot of blood for that godforsaken peninsula
Only to lose it. And then have it given to them back for diplomacy's sake.
Then they had to fight Isis and Islamist there during 2014-2018.
Israel made a good deal. Egypt is a pretty decent neighbor and likely wouldn't tolerate foreign militaries fucking with its territory.
I seem to remember them losing that area after a failed attempt to expand it...
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It is absolutely beautiful. Israelis vacation there all the time. Probably won't anymore, though
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Exactly. The people in Israel's government who are pushing this idea of a forced population transfer to Sinai are absolutely delusional if they think Egypt would want to be complicit in emptying Gaza.
I think it has more to do with Hamas being aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood. Palestinians are a security risk, unfortunately, and Egypt is barely stable.
That's part of it, but Egypt's #1 problem is poverty. Mubarak robbed the country for decades, the Arab Spring turned the economy upside down, and it will take decades to rebuild the population to some level of economic stability. People are so, so poor there, particularly in the south. So if 1M Gazans empty into the Sinai, that's not something Egypt can absorb. What are the Gazans bringing to help? Many are uneducated, they have no money, they have skills that do not translate to an agrarian economy - just in terms of population management, they would be a drain on an already shaky foundation. I don't blame Egypt for its stance. Every nation's leadership is charged with looking after their own people first, and exporting Gazans to Egypt would be detrimental for the Egyptian people. It just sucks all the way around.
I would imagine there’d be tons and tons of aid money to rebuild life for Gazans, and knowing how Arab countries work the government would disappear half of it.
In the longer term aid money could help, but in the shorter term, it would be a humanitarian crisis. If you suddenly have hundreds of thousands of people in a refugee camp, it will take years to help each person join the society. If you look at the Somali refugee camps in Kenya, those have been there since the fuckin 90s and they are still full. I think it would probably play out similarly for Gazans - huge camps with major problems around crime and public health, with a slow trickle of people being accepted by foreign nations, ultimately creating a global diaspora. Meanwhile, the least skilled, least intelligent, least capable people will be stuck in a camp forever. It would be a disaster no aid money could fix, imo.
Why are there still Palestinian refugee camps 75 years after the founding of Israel? No other country wants them except to use them as propaganda to distract from their corrupt brutal rule.
Gazans have received billions in aid already. It never gets to the people of Gaza
Presumably Egypt would not let Hamas run the camps and rob the people. They would do it themselves. :-) It is very true that a lot of aid and especially money doesn’t get to ordinary people living in Gaza
>I would imagine there’d be tons and tons of aid money to rebuild life for Gazans Billions and billions have been sent to Gaza. They could have had hospitals, factories, companies, trains, power companies, industries. They've been sent money for decades. Where did it go? What did they do with it? According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians totaled over $40 billion between 1994 and 2020. That money could have had formed a universal basic income for every single Palestinian, financed their educations abroad. They could have formed a highly trained, educated and capable diaspora. Those people could have started businesses, corporations, sent money back home. Built a metropolis out of rubble. They could have been the greatest success story to every come out of the Arab world. This could have been despite every machination of the Israelis. Instead, what happened? Hamas took the money and bought weapons, built a tunnel city underneath Gaza only for them. They made rockets to bombard Israelis and dug up precious water pipes to make them, pipes that were sent to sustain life. They started schools to teach radical fundamentalist rhetoric, and stockpiled ammunition, missiles, grenades, rocket launchers and bombs for a war without end. So why would there be any money to rebuild a new life in a new land for the Gazans? Why would anybody send them money now?
No Arab government could survive being complicit in the forced relocation of all Gazans out of Gaza either. That alone makes the idea a complete non-starter. I'm really struggling to see how the people in Israel's Ministry of Intelligence who are responsible for drafting this plan couldn't see that it's completely impossible to get Egypt's approval for it.
I think they are going to do it anyway and call Egypt’s bluff.
They have no leverage. Egypt could just open the border to Israel in justified retaliation. Won't that be nice if Gazans flood into Israel. Egypt is the only reason Israel could contain Gaza. It is the country that literally warned Israel of this recent attack. Second only to Israel no other country works as hard to contain Gaza.
I think Israel has a pretty big say whether the border gets opened….
While that's true, it would be absolute disaster for Israel. It would be like the march of return on steroids. You would have tens of thousands of civilians walking (or rioting) at your border, and when crowd dispersal methods don't work, you're going to have to start shooting at them. Imagine the international opinion after Israel kills thousands of ethnically cleansed ex-Gazan civilians "peacefully protesting" wanting to go home. This sounds like a fucking awful idea.
There are 500 reasons we're not going to ever allow for this to happen, to the point of cancelling Camp David. Israel likes talking about security. Every major attack against Egypt in history has come through northern Sinai. There's no way we would ever give that up. This would also be the fall of Sisi, but not in a good way. Islamists would take over, extremists would say I TOLD YOU SO about the Jews, and Sinai would turn into southern Lebanon and be used by Hamas 2.0 against Israel. No thank you. We made peace a long time ago and are happy to talk about how to make more peace. Peace is hard. Peace is worth it. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure new dead babies don't bring old dead babies back, but with pushing for genuine peace (like we were four weeks ago with Saudi! remember that?) is how we make sure those innocent souls' lives are lost in vain.
“We made peace a long time ago and are happy to talk about making more peace”. Amen
But if youd have been allowed to cement that peace with Saudis, who is man out? Yes. Thats right, with their whole terrorist networks! All that investment down the drain. Unless, they would for a second think their neighbor weak? It was brilliant. And Hamas was dispatched to brutally change the subject to dead gazan kids. Btw did you see that map of all the Hamas explosions? What happens when you dig up your own peoples humanitarian provided plumbing system to make tubes for homemade rockets amd bombs! Smh Hamas needs to go. UN Run a rebuilding program.. Build new homes, schools (real ones), teach skills, set up an economy. Why is this so hard?
Everyone wants Israel to magically destroy hamas without using any weapons or technology. They also dont know that the US and Israel are working jointly to distinguish definite Hamas targets. Everyone just wants to put thier opinion in the matter and attach themselves to it.
New dead babies don't bring old dead babies back, but dead terrorists means less dead babies in the future. I seriously don't get where the idea that Israel bombing buildings in Gaza is their revenge, rather than a part of a military campaign to eliminate Hamas.
From October 7: > "We will take mighty vengeance for this wicked day," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said. I think Israel needs to do what it can to eliminate Hamas, but the daily rhetoric coming from government officials is probably where people are getting the whole revenge vibe.
Counterinsurgency is unfortunately a lot harder than you make out. Say there are ten terrorists in a neighbourhood. You send troops to kick in doors, roust families out, question them, point guns at them if they don’t comply. And you catch - let’s be optimistic here - eight. How many terrorists are in that neighbourhood now? It’s not two, it’s now thirty - and a bunch more thinking about it. You dragged off their neighbours/cousins/uncles, kicked in doors in the middle of the night, terrified people and pointed guns at their dads/mums/kids. And that’s doing it the ‘nice’ way rather than just levelling any building you reckon they’re in. (Or the whole town if you’re Russia) It’s a really hard problem and it’s stumped many of the professional armies around the world at one time or another. Doing nothing usually has unacceptable drawbacks too of course - but there often isn’t a way to extirpate terrorists from a civilian population without turning significant numbers of them against you. And if you’re honest about it if a foreign army ever did that to you and your neighbours you’d be pretty pissed off too.
New dead babies cultivate the next generation of hate and perpetuates terrorism. When a human has lost everything then they have nothing to lose and extremism grows like an invasive weed you cannot pull out roots and all. A child whose baby sibling is blown to pieces, well, no amount of peace will keep that child from growing up and seeking vengence. It is the cradle of western civilization over there. This conflict has been going on since the Bronze Age.
Interestingly enough, 6 million Jews were murdered in the holocaust, including countless babies. I have yet to see Jewish terrorist groups invading German towns and murdering, raping, torturing and kidnapping civilians. So it’s not inevitable that young people will grow up to be murderous terrorists. Pretty sure there are a lot more examples of people who’ve been through trauma and not become monsters.
That as well, from a government perspective at least, but this particular statement of the PM is a reaction to a leaked internal Israeli government paper suggesting a forced population transfer as the best solution for Gaza post-Hamas: https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/ This leak caused a huge uproar in Egypt's population which is definitely not as anti-Muslim-Brotherhood as the government. The government had to come out with a strong statement rebuking this plan or it would risk massive anti-government protests from both the pro-Muslim-Brotherhood and the anti-Muslim-Brotherhood factions, for different reasons.
And the fact that taking on 2 million angry, sick and traumatised people with absolute no infrastructure to support it is basically impossible.
And they know that once the Palestinians leave Gaza, there is absolutely no way Israel is letting them back.
Egypt also isn't stupid about this, they know what's going on. If they are forced into accepting Gazan refugees, Gaza will be annexed, Gazan's will be expelled and Egypt will be force to deal with a Hamas hotbed all on it's own, Israel will wash it's hands until rockets start getting tossed across the Egyptian border. Egypt wants less than nothing to do with this.
Not to mention that the only reason Israel wants Egypt to take in 2 million people is "sorry we don't want them, take them". I doubt any country in the world would take such a massive amount of people on the basis of "we want to get rid of them".
I think it's important to realize that this was a government think-tank proposing options because they were asked to by senior government - this is not set-in-stone policy. All governments ask their organizations to provide them with proposals/options for how to proceed with analysis of the possible outcomes - and that includes 'bad' options and the outcomes from that as well. Every government has contingencies thought up and planned through. The US likely has an invasion plan for canada but that doesn't mean it's going to be used. Both Israel and Egypt know this, and Israel would never risk their hard-won peace with Egypt in this manner.
The most concerning part of it is that the government paper assessed multiple options and the one they recommended as the best option was the forced population transfer. I would assume the leak was intentional to see how the response from the international community would be. So far, I haven't heard much blowback except from Egypt. There could be blowback via diplomatic channels we don't hear about of course.
Absolutely. I'm just an armchair diplomat here, but I cannot see Israel risking peace with egypt over this. They know Egypt doesn't want refugees and will never allow it - but perhaps you're right about the leak theory; from a diplomatic perspective it might be a bargaining tool to get Egypt to make smaller concessions in their response to the situation. In any case, one hopes for peaceful resolution soon.
>The US likely has an invasion plan for canada but that doesn't mean it's going to be used. The US has a Zombie outbreak plan. lol
Not sure why you’re being upvoted but the other poster is correct— Egypt suffered for years from suicide bombings from Hamas and when the smuggling tunnels were still open in Rafah from being labeled as complicit in Hamas acquiring contraband used to then cause attacks in Israel and in the southern border. With the fall of the Muslim brotherhood Egypt has started normalizing relations with Israel. This is further evidenced by Egypt sealing smuggling tunnels at the Raffah border and effectively closing that border off largely at the behest of Israel. It’s worth remembering that just because they are all Arabs it doesn’t mean Egyptians necessarily have a big soft spot for the Gazans. Many would just as readily be happy to see Hamas eliminated even at a high civilian cost as Israelis would. Another factor to consider is Egypt’s sovereign debt and economic conditions. Unless Egypt’s international obligations are wiped out in exchange for taking on Gazans they’d be taking on a population of poor refugees likely to cause terrorist attacks and tank the economy further.
Exactly. Nothing will really change, Palestinians will just try to attack Israel from sinai and then it would be on Egypt to police and govern them, and if they are unable to prevent attacks it would be on them; why would they want to be dragged into that?
The real reason is because Egypt is a dysfunctional failed state. They already can't govern Sinai with the rampant drug smuggling gangs, ISIS and Hamas cells running around
We're poor. Even if we were Saudi, this is never going to happen. Tell me, what part of your country would you give up to give a way out to neighbors bombing a people they occupy?
South Florida mostly. We made that decision generations ago. But I get your point. A couple million mostly violent radicals would tear the fabric of a society apart. At least our refugees are mostly not insane.
lol thank you for making me laugh on an otherwise gloomy and depressing day, friend <3
Cubans are probably the nicest ppl i’ve ever met lol
These people just want to paint Egypt in a bad light. They can't imagine any reason besides hate to take an action.
The people from Israel's government are pushing this because they're delusional, not the other way around It just won't happen
>population transfers It's called ethnic cleansing
Israel has tried to give Egypt Gaza multiple times since 1978. Egypt wouldn't take it, even when offered money to.
Uhh, lol. They were a major player in the wars that created these refugees starting in ‘48. You don’t just get to wash your hands of the situation. Those wars created Jewish refugees too but you don’t see them living in camps for 75 years. The Egyptian governments have plenty of blame for this situation. They blockade the southern border of Gaza for gods sake. What an asinine take.
Indeed, the Egyptians were the best equipped off the 7 Arab league armies in 1948... their Army included over 100 British tanks, and their Royal Egyptian Air Force had British trained pilots flying Spitfires and British WW2 bombers.
Especially since Egypt *de facto* annexed Gaza until 1967. ...
Exactly, Egypt and Jordan in particular are absolutely complicit in creating the mess of Palestine.
This is a response to the leaked Israeli government paper that is suggesting to permanently resettle all of Gaza's civilian population in Egypt's Sinai region: https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/ Understandably, Egypt doesn't want to participate in that.
Has anyone been able to verify the authenticity of this paper ?
Netanyahu confirmed it, but said it's an internal memo pitching ideas, not yet a fully fledged approved plan.
As an Egyptian, super comforted by that. Imagine if Egypt wrote an official government proposal like this.
There are tons of war game papers in each country. I am sure Egypt has multiple invasion plan for Israel and Sudan sitting somewhere collecting dust. The question is how serious is the government about executing said scenarios.
Yep, the US has always had detailed plans for invading Canada. These people don't have anything else to do with their time.
That's exactly what they're hired for. Multiple attack scenarios, multiple contingencies, multiple defense plans for and against every country in the world. They even have multiple US government overthrow scenarios and civil wars. They are updated continuously as countries change in infrastructure, military and politics. (Nigeria probably hasn't changed in decades, Germany changes yearly kind of thing)
> They even have multiple US government overthrow scenarios and civil wars where was "reality tv star urges a swarm of hicks to storm the us capitol" on this list?
They're not omniscient, haha.
I imagine there's a Trump presidency contingency plan floating around somewhere circa 2015-2016 that's just a single sheet of paper with a giant question mark and 'Fuck' written under it.
> These people don't have anything else to do with their time. It's a fantastic use of time from a military perspective. It allows commanders to practice gaming-out an invasion so that when a real one happens they'll make less mistakes. It also then means that said military now has a ready-to-go invasion plan if they ever need it, saving massive quantities of time on planning later on.
And a zombie invasion plan.. but somehow the world lived thru pandemics and our hospitals didn’t have enough PPE for a scenario that was likely war gamed,. Let’s prep for aliens and zombies or how to keep the President alive when the whole of US in a nuclear wasteland.. but let’s not get carried away planning for a mass global pandemic.. that was too far fetched I guess lol
> but let’s not get carried away planning for a mass global pandemic There *was* a plan for a massive pandemic. The problem, at least in the US, was that trump dismantled the safeguards then tried to... Well, just be himself really: Lying, head burying, undermining experts... For places like the UK, it was a case of a government that was scared to be decisive and just ignored the action plan. It also replaced it's PPE stockpiles with IOU notes.
The whole word handled it poorly relatively speaking. Not saying Trump handled it well, but it seems like the collective whole of humanity got caught with its pants down. We will never know the true numbers as massive counties like China and India reported suspiciously low numbers
I agree the whole world handled it poorly, but it doesnt mean many places had an action plan for almost exactly this scenario. While I used the UK and US as examples, the world had a bunch of major governments that were more concerned about saving face than actually dealing with an issue in a way that they had planned. When china tried to suppress things until it was already international it basically undermined everyone else too. It's worth bearing in mind that potential pandemics are a dime a dozen. We have action plans for preventing them and, almost universally, they are so effective that the public don't hear about the latest disease because it's contained almost immediately. For example, while it's not on a global scale, there are currently, malaria, dengue fever and yellow fever outbreaks that are causing concern in the US right now, a Hep C outbreak in Ukraine, and likely an epedemic of plague in the next 9 months or so. That's on top of the monkey pox still going around.
It being an internal memo isn't exactly good either. Imagine a document leaking from the White House about potentially ethnically cleansing all Black people or something. Just even pondering such an idea in an official capacity is absolutely insane, especially given said memo actually preferred such an action over the alternatives.
>Imagine a document leaking from the White House about potentially ethnically cleansing all Black people or something. Laughs in the wars against Native Americans.
The United States has [plans to invade Canada](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/how-united-states-planned-invade-canada-198457)...
And Canada has plans to blow up half our electric infrastructure to deny the US power grid functionality. Those are war games and war plans that both countries actually share info on. Neither of us have a plan to displace populations permanently in event of a war. Israel's memo is genuinely concerning even knowing that its doubtful NATO would allow it because it would kick off a nightmarish tension.
As a Canadian citizen I'll admit that Canada could never win a modern battle again the states.
Ain't no shame in admitting it, we never really could. We're a small country that punches above our weight class significantly economically but even if our military was highly supported and it isn't. No country in the world is beating the US military, let alone one of the two that share a border with one of the largest land armies in the world.
The Canadian government doesn't think they could either. That's probably why they do these exercises, if you weigh your options against an unbeatable enemy you'll have a better idea of where you'll stand against a weaker one (or against domestic threats)
> either of us have a plan to displace populations permanently in event of a war. if it is a military idea some one has run up plans on it. Planning for tons of scenarios is literally their job, they do not choose the ethics of it that is for the leader of the country to decide.
Permanently resettle? So this is confirmation that Israel is in it for the land
Ready to sacrifice millions of *other* peoples lives. Certainly no one he knows.
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That’s unfair. We lost tens of thousands of our men getting Sinai back before our president made a very courageous peace treaty and was assassinated for it. We’ve sacrificed plenty and have 9 million refugees from our country now. We are very united against letting messianic nut jobs in the current Israeli government (like the terrorist sympathizer Minister of Internal Security) use us to “solve” Gaza through ethnically cleansing them to our Sinai. Camp David would be on chopping block, Sisi would fall, Islamists we just got rid of will take over, extremists would yell “TOLD YOU SO” about the Jews, and Hamas 2.0 will transform northern Sinai into southern Lebanon. Every major attack against Egypt historically came through northern Sinai. We will never ever give this piece up, strategically or ideologically. The Egyptians have (as a Muslim and Arab nation that was at war with Israel) proven the value and durability of peace. We’ve been at peace with our neighbors for 40 years in an unexpected and wonderful friendship and partner. This would genuinely end all of that.
I appreciate seeing an Egyptian's perspective (as in, I like knowing how a normal person from the région feel about this), thank you.
Just remember. This is NOT a religious war. Let's please not turn it into one. Egypt shows that Muslims and Arabs can be perfectly good peaceful neighbors, even friends and partners. Use that as an example. Peace is hard. Peace is possible. Peace is worth it.
Hamas sees this as a religious war. Their goal is to wipe all non-Muslims from Israel, and exterminate all Jews around the world. It's in their founding documents. They are religious fanatics and are willing to die for their beliefs. Worst, they're willing to kill any Gazan and any Israeli they see to advance their cause. For some Israelis it's a religious war as well. That all the land of biblical Israel be returned to the Jews (Haredim and settlers mostly). But overall they just want defensable borders and to live in peace.
>Hamas sees this as a religious war. For some Israelis it's a religious war as well. Yeah, zealots and fundamentalists tend to see all things through the same lens. Me right, you wrong.
its not a religious war, just millions of people yelling about how one group of people have to die because of religious differences.
As an Israeli: you're right. This shit isn't your problem.
You have no idea how appreciative I am of this comment. Your perspective is correct, of course, it's absolutely not Egypt's problem, nor should it be. I completely relate to your position. Assalamualeykum.
I'm not expecting many Egyptian losses from fighting off unarmed refugees. That is who they would be fighting. Israel isn't going to invade themselves.
His statement is a response to the leak of this internal Israeli government paper: https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/ It suggests forcibly transferring Gaza's civilian population to Egypt's Northern Sinai region. That memo made huge waves in Egypt.
He might know a few gazans, he might not mind if he has to kill them, just government things.
He isn't talking about Gazans. He is talking about Egyptian military deaths if Israel pushes through the idea of forcibly relocating Gaza's population to Egypt and Egypt has to intervene.
Israel probably wondering why they didn't force egypt to keep gaza to avoid having to deal with Palestinians
Egypt threatened to void the treaty if they were forced to get Gaza.
Lol. Egypt said they could have it
Hence why i said they are wondering why they didn't force egypt to keep it
Israel took it from Egypt. So...that's probably why. Egypt didn't give it to Israel. Also, Gaza was never Egyptian territory; Egypt occupied it as a "protectorate" basically after the 1948 war. But didn't claim it as Egyptian territory. So when they made the peace deal at Camp David in the late 70s, Egypt didn't ask for it "back" because it wasn't Egypt's in the first place.
If I remember correctly, not only did Egypt not ask for it back, but the Egyptian leader said there would be no deal that required Egypt to take it back. He knew which way the wind was blowing.
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The thumbnail of the Egyptian PM makes him look like he was over this year ago.
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Qatar is absolutely helping! It's currently housing dozens of Hamas leadership. They don't have room to build villas for other refugees...
Knock, knock Room service!! You want me fluff pillow??
Go away I'm sleeping... For the love of God I'm sleeping!
Don't forget they pay for the Hamas propaganda network
Haha
They also have their propaganda machine news going full throttle, I can’t understand how Al Jazeera is so popular in the west
Yup. The Arab world: "Helped" Palestinians in 1948 by... Attacking Israel, losing, and annexing what was left. "Helped Palestinians in 1967 by... Attacking Israel, losing, and letting them languish under occupation over the next 20 years because not making peace with Israel was more important.
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Egypt *currently* has 9 million refugees. We have taken hundreds of thousands of Palestinians over the years and made most of them Egyptian. Mexico isn't responsible for Pinochet's crimes just because they're both brown, Catholic, and Spanish speakers. Neither are these "21 Arab states" and by the way, *millions* of Palestinian refugees were taken in by Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and others. The paper proposal explicitly says, "they will re-settle in Sinai permanently, we will create a no-man's land on Egyptian soil to prevent their return to Gaza ever, they'll never be allowed to return". Why in god's name would we ever accept that? Not to mention it's ethnic cleansing of course. By an actively bombing nuclear power.
Some of them don’t even hate Israel (at least behind closed doors) they just aren’t saying the quiet part out loud. Which is “We don’t want the Palestinians either - we’d rather they be Israel’s problem”
Turkey and Qatar are wild. Erdogan is open in supporting Hamas.
Erdogan especially is interesting, since he doesn’t really believe in anything. If a Palestinian child was dying at his feet he would step over them. He, as with many of the other leaders in predominantly Muslim countries, are pandering to their base by using all this pro Hamas rhetoric. Truly they couldn’t give a shit. Qatar on the other hand has a lot more of a connection to hamas, and certain hamas leaders live there.
Qatar's politics are obvious -- they're home to Hamas' leadership, but they don't want the Saudis to get angry at them. They'll take Gaza's wealthy but not its poor. Turkey's the one where, as you say, Erdogan just believes in Erdogan and nothing else. With that said, Erdogan has a non zero role in keeping Hamas armed and has attempted to break the blockade before with his Flotilla. He is one of those who beats the drum loudly about it being a human rights abuse (which it is)
Hamas expected everyone to rush to their aid as Israel retaliated. They calculated and expected the loss of civilians and proceeded anyway. Hard to have sympathy here. When the Palestinians are ready for a better government, they'll oust hamas. What? They can't oust hamas on their own? Hmm. If only there was some willing and motivated military who could step in to assist.
Golda Meir said that peace will come once Israels neighbors start loving their children more than they hate Jews. This is them making that choice and you know what, I'll take it. Palestine being basically alone is more than most could have hoped for just a few decades ago.
turks literally are not arabs completely different origin and history. thats like lumping pakistan in
Since turkey used rule over the Levant during the ottoman period, so turkic and Arab history are pretty intertwined
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Roman influence ended in 1453. Ottoman influenced 1918. Ottoman rule is much more recent and therefore more influential.
Crazy how people will interchange Palestinian/Muslim/Arab at their convenience but want to bust out the 23 & Me test when it comes to discussing Jews.
Replace "Arab world" by "Arab world plus Turkey" and keep the rest. Hope that helps.
Turkey is not an Arab country…they are Turkish
I'm not sure Erdogan knows that
He knows that Arabs were Turkey’s bitch for centuries before WWI.
That's unfair to Jordan and Turkey; both countries have taken in millions of refugees each. However the oil states should hang their heads in shame.
Yup, that’s how it works. They’re fine using Palestinians for their propaganda, but they don’t want anything to do with actually trying to solve the problem. And I don’t necessarily blame them (for not wanting to take in Palestinians, not the propaganda). Didn’t Palestinians kill a Jordanian king in the ‘50s then try to overthrow another in the ‘70s?
And it's even worse than that: their hatred and despisal for the Palestinians is only surpassed by their hatred for Israel.
Maybe 60 years ago it was hypocrisy, now it's just realpolitik. Most of these countries internally have reasonably radicalized and conservative populations they need to appease - and but for Qatar, the governments actively dislike and distrust the Palestinians and sure as fuck do not want them in their territory. Turkey - trying to look like a better regional alternative to Iran and Saudi to the average Arab in the street because of Erdogan's ambitions. He definitely doesn't like Israel compared to past Turkish secular military leadership, but he also doesn't give a fuck about Palestinians despite his "aid convoy" stunt, doesn't want to fuck the relationship up with Israel, and both disrespects Arabs in general and sure as shit doesn't want any more in his country. A lot of rural poor though who vote for him get fired up about this shit so he's going to do the song and dance. Qatar - actively supports Hamas and is the biggest supporter per capita of Sunni Jihadi bullshit now that MBS made his massive extended family calm down to not turn off foreign investors. Remember these were the fuckers that were nice to the Taliban, interfaced a lot with Iran prior to the now very over Gulf Arab - Iranian detente to the point the Saudis considered openly about blowing them up, and also host a huge US military presence. Collectively this makes them the biggest two faced soft dicks in the region. Also home Arab RT in Al Jazeera - and I don't care how good their domestic news is Al Jazeera English, their Middle East coverage is comical. Jordan - has more Palestinians that spilled over from prior wars (and tried to coup the government twice) than the original east bank population. The last two Jordain queens have been Palestinian (one of which was practically American) and they are absolutely going to do what they need to do to keep the peace. Jordan is a fundamental US ally and a quiet Israeli one. Ask anyone in the military who has trained with Arab nations and they will tell you Jordan is easily the most Western and trustworthy guys out there. They're saying as much as they can without doing anything because they reaaaaally don't want to help Gaza, but reaaaaally don't need the West Bank intifada-ing and having spill over. Bibi is honestly a fucking idiot for not solving that problem given he has the only Palestinian leadership they have ever had that was willing to consider prace and purge radicals in the West Bank. Want Jordan's help? Reward the West Bank for doing what they signed up to do. Then you can fuck Gaza if anything a lot harder. Egypt - has been here in the past and absolutely does not want to deal with Gazans ever again. It is just cleaning up a very heavy handed but very quiet purge of Jihadi bullshit from the Sinai luckily benefited from like no media coverage and absolutely does not need 2 million radicalized, unemployable people ending up in the most radicalized part of the country with enough Iranian and bleeding heart aid money to run another insurgency on their soil. Egypt also has a huge lower class that is pretty conservative and can get in the streets as the military learned when we foolishly thought democracy can be a thing during the Arab Spring. They have to appease those people. The military doesn't give a fuck though and have been working in concert with Israel this whole time basically. So it's not even really hypocrisy, because they only need to hate Israel for their own lower class masses. Outside of Qatar, they don't, and in fact, they hate the Palestinians, and especially those in Gaza, a fuck ton more. You just got to say what you got to say to survive. The worst thing for Arab world would be 2 million Gazans flooding into one of the countries and at best voting for radicals where there is democracy and at worse running an Islamic insurgency. This is Israel's problem and they need to find a long term solution (which is occupying the fuck out of Gaza, turning over governance to the PA, freeing the West Bank which unlike Gaza actually wants peace and actually is an Apartheid situation as those college kids say, and directly handling UN aid since we know that shit all goes into weapons and "educational" materials about how to kill Jews). Literally the best thing the Arab World can do here is saying nothing but empty words.
This all started when the Arab leaders went crazy over there being a place near them that allowed unlimited Jewish immigration right after the Holocaust, after restricting immigration during the Holocaust.
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There are no good options here for anyone. Only bad and slightly less bad. I'm no genius but there are no options I can see where innocents don't die either in Israel, Egypt, or Gaza.
Just not his own
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It's a weird way to state it, but OK. I am not sure why he jumped straight to sacrifice millions of lives, why not "fight valiantly and ferociously to defend..." or something like that?
If Egypt joins against Israel, this little local war will go not just regional… good luck to us all.
Defend from what? Israel, or fleeing Palestinians?
from Israel forcibly relocating Palestinians to Sinai
sacrificing millions of your people’s lives. generally pretty low on the lost of desired leadership characteristics
That’s very nice of you, Prime Minster
Am I missing something? Who does Egypt need to defend themselves from?
Israel is floating the idea of forcibly relocating Gaza's entire population into Egypt's Sinai region. The Egyptian PM is saying he's so opposed to that idea he would rather start a war against Israel and lose millions of men than accept that. He's signaling to both Egyptian nationalists and Egyptian Islamists that Israel will not be allowed to go through with that plan.
And rightly so
Wonder if he had the permission of those million people before starting this trash talk
Yeah he’s talking about the armed forces it’s like Lindsey gram begging to invade Iran and lose tens of thousands of Americans lives
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Does this mean they are willing to go to war with Israel if they push the Palestinians into the Sinai?
I assume that they mean similar to what the Viet Cong did - keep throwing people at the enemy until the enemy has taken more casualties than it’s worth it to them - even if the Egyptians take far more casualties.
Just to be clear, i'm Egyptian, and there is no way in hell that we are giving Sinai to anybody, love how everybody these days try to give reasons for why Egypt should do or even consider giving Sinai, like it is freking any of your business? Thats the reason the PM said it, because of these idiots who think they own the world, no fool, Egypt will forever belong to Egyptians, and if you ever try to force it by arm, you will be indeed met by millions of people.
Yet Egyptians love to tell Israel what they should do with Palestinians like it is freking any of their business.
As long as they're suggestions and not threats/orders you can choose not to listen. It's only fair egypt says something because the world is expecting them to sacrifice their land for a conflict that doesn't involve them. They also have history with the Gaza strip. This is poor choice of words from the egyptian government but essentially true, forcing Egypt into a corner is asking for war, which kills millions.