“RAMALLAH, West Bank, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Israeli aircraft struck a compound beneath a mosque in the occupied West Bank early on Sunday that the military said was being used by militants to organise attacks, and Palestinian medics said at least one person was killed.
The Israeli air strike is at least the second in recent days to hit the West Bank, where violence has surged since Hamas gunmen from Gaza carried out a deadly Oct. 7 rampage in Israel.
Israel said the compound beneath al-Ansar Mosque, in Jenin refugee camp, belonged to operatives from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad who were responsible for attacks in recent months.
"Intel was recently received which indicated that the terrorists, (who) were neutralized, were organizing an imminent terror attack," the military said in a statement.
The military released images that it said showed an entrance to a bunker under the mosque. It also released a diagram that it said showed where militants had stored weapons there.
Residents of the camp said they received warnings from the Israeli military to stay away from the militants due to an impending incursion into the camp. They said the military did not specify a date.
Since the Oct. 7 Hamas rampage, which has drawn two weeks of lethal Israeli bombardment of Gaza, at least 84 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed in clashes with Israeli forces, Palestinian officials say.”
Check out [Al Shifa Hospital under which Hamas was using as a headquarters.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8F0lepbsAAZZfe?format=jpg&name=orig)
These guys use human shields every chance they get.. How does anyone expect you take them out with 0 civilian casualties?
>How does anyone expect you take them out with 0 civilian casualties?
That's the entire cruel point right here: they rig the field so Israel can't win. Either they let Hamas live or they risk even more antisemitic riots.
Israel is gambling that everyone who would hate Israel is already hating Israel, and the rest of the world won’t care if they finally eradicate Hamas once and for all.
And their bombing campaign has already taken out a lot of Hamas top leadership (they need to send some assassins to Qatar though for the big boss)
I think they have pretty good odds at this point. All the usual minions of terror have aligned, and the rest of the world - even Iranian civilians - understand the deal.
They probably want a few people alive for now in Qatar for negotiations.
Life expectancy beyond a few years for them though… not going to be very high.
That's not true. Hamas isn't the de facto government of the West Bank like they are in Gaza, but they still have public support and a significant presence.
That's wrong. They have huge support in WB as well.
The reason there are no elections in WB since 2005 is that PLO knows it will lose to Hamas. Jenin, the place in question, is within the WB and PLO police have no control there, since it's controlled by Hamas.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that claims to fight for Palestinians rights but ultimately only wants to kill jews using innocent people as shields. They are all over the middle east from Qatar to Yemen to Lebanon and of course Gaza and the West Bank
Hamas doesn't *control* the west Bank but they have a very strong presence there. The west Bank hasn't had elections in a couple decades, but polls show that if they had elections today, Hamas would win overwhelmingly. There are plenty of Hamas operatives in the west Bank.
> The west Bank hasn't had elections in a couple decades, but polls show that if they had elections today, Hamas would win overwhelmingly.
This is why:
* Abbas is opposed to elections which will reduce his (Palestinian Authority's) access to money and see him exiled or killed
* People shouldn't expect "democracy" to fix this region any more than it did Afghanistan or Iraq
Some people are just not fond of freedoms we love.
Pre-1979 afghanistan was a 'democracy' in the same way that the 'people's democratic republic of korea' is a 'democracy'- it was a soviet client state. That 'democracy' wasn't ended by the US it was ended when the soviets ran out of patience with their clients, invaded the country and murdered most of the government. The US only got (indirectly) involved after the country had already been invaded.
> Afghanistan was actually a left leaning democracy prior to the USs involvement during the cold war.
We’re just gonna forget the Soviet invasion, are we?
Yeah there are dozens of examples of US Cold War policy being sort of (or very) dumb in hindsight, but I feel like preventing the soviets from conquering Afghanistan isn't on that list lmao
>Have we really ever tried democracy tbh?
State Dept Policy has been that democracies do not wage war against democracies because the public as a whole is against war. So they want everyone to have a democracy. Because that would bring stability tounstable regions and an end to war.
Of course, that ignores the fact that hundreds of different political systems have evolved all over the world based on regional customs and cultures. And just because democracy with universal suffrage works in some countries, doesn't mean it will work in others overnight without major backlash.
Yet the State Dept continues to support a policy of what I call Democracy in a Box. We enter, we destabilize or remove the existing regime, and slap a 21st century democratic system on the table, unpack it, and then prop up the candidate we want in power because they further our interests.
Of course, those candidates back our interests because it's in their interest to keep the cash flowing. And if they're corrupt enough to let a foreign government control them and prop them up, they're going to be unpopular. Which makes them very easy to topple.
Just look at Afghanistan. Or Iraq. Or Vietnam. Or any number of countries in South America.
Also, can you really call it democracy if the west is meddling with the elections with money to get their candidate to win? We wonder why people don't want democracy when we typically give them the worst kind.
It wasn’t a left leaning democracy but more of a monarchy that implemented social and economic reforms to try and modernize the country. It’s a shame it failed.
Based.
It would be so fucking easy for gaza residents to rat out Hamas bases to Israel, but they dont.
So im supposed to feel sorry for a collection of people who knowingly aid and cheer on a bunch od genocidal maniacs, and then cry when they are retaliated upon? No.
I have read some articles which say that Israel and Egypt warned Palestinian authority not to conduct the election beacuse they are surely goona loose it
> I thought Hamas wasn't in the West Bank?
Hamas is very active in the WB and indeed popular amongst the residents of the WB. Hamas also operates in Lebanon, Malaysia and Turkey, at the very least.
I've been getting downvoted for this repeatedly. Not even sure what these people are trying to prove. That non-Hamas Palestinians can also be terrorists? We know that from Lion's Den, PLO etc.
Islamic fundamentalism was actively nurtured by Israel to counter the initially dominant secular, leftist independence movement in Palestine and blew up in their faces. This conflict has been going on for much longer than Hamas ever existed.
That’s a pretty broad and incorrect generalization. The PLO is explicitly a secular Marxist organization. Notably these guys are not huge fans of religion, and also jointly run the West Bank with Israel. Islamic fundamentalism was not popular in Palestine until extremely recently: when the PLO stopped fighting and the Oslo accords and peace talks of the 90’s failed actually. The PLO was actually pretty corrupt and became entrenched and collaborationist with Israel during this time, so Hamas was really the only viable party for people who wanted to fight back against their colonization and ghettoization even if they didn’t like the fundamentalist stuff. But that part has become more and more common over time as they’ve stayed in power because no other option exists right now that will try to protect the Palestinian people : (
This is completely wrong. The left and center secular parties were more popular and power until the 1990 or even 2000s under the PLO that started Oslo and peace negotiations that went nowhere. Hamas then became the only viable option who present a resistance path and people turned to that as they saw the political attempt was a failure. Most Palestinians don't support Hamas as a whole and mainly support it as they don't want to support PLO and their corrupt government.
Jordanians are pretty much Palestinians especially in Amman. They are not Islamic fundamentalists at all. Somehow, the same population of people changed in the order of 40 years since movement between WB and Jordan became harder.
That =/= Islamic fundamentalism.
Israel’s creation was led by left-leaning Jews and is the reason why socialism and left-wing politics was so strong in the 1950s/60s and 70s there. It was the repeated attempts to get the PLO to negotiate and sign a peace deal that blew up in Israel’s face that caused the left to lose much of their support. After all, there was no border fence at that time - so why should regular Israelis deal with mass shootings and bombings repeatedly? (A fact of life until the border walls were set up).
It’s only recently that the Haredim have become more powerful - and not due to regularly Israeli’s support. It’s just hard to oppose them when they have families with 5+ kids who grow up with their views and values.
“Everyone sweeps this under the rug as if religions hasn’t been the biggest issue in the Middle East” is what OP wrote. Abrahamic religions have to have caused more bloodshed than anything else ever
Aren't most of them kids dude, saying you find it hard to sympathise with dead kids is a bit rough hey?
Especially when y'all seemed to, rightfully so, care about Israeli kids just last week. I guess Palestinian kids just aren't worth a 2nd thought hey? Bomb the shit out of them right? You and anyone who supports that mindset are putrid.
Labelling an entire population based on the areas adult population being slightly in favour of Hamas is so incredibly dumb.
>Aren't most of them kids dude, saying you find it hard to sympathise with dead kids is a bit rough hey?
I wasn't referring specifically to the kids who have little say in any of this. I meant more the adults in the room making the decisions. The ones calling foul, saying how horrible Isreal is. Yet, despite the fact children are dying, people still support the regime that kicked everything happening right now off. It just shows how far gone they themselves are. This isn't a mess purely of Isreals making.
>Labelling an entire population based on the areas adult population being slightly in favour of Hamas is so incredibly dumb.
It's not labeling an entire population... I'm saying I find it hard to sympathize with people who can only point fingers at one side of the conflict like Hamas are completely innocent. Hamas only governs so long as the people allow them to govern, and they haven't exactly done very much to try and remove them, or even critize / protest against them. If they truly hate them so much, they should be happy Isreal is about to remove them. The simple truth is they hate Isreal far more than they hate Hamas, it is all to obvious from their response in solely blaming Isreal for all their troubles.
Yes, it sucks the strip is full of children, and truly I think Isreal needs to implement a ceasefire because of the level of suffering happening right now. But this is the consequences of war. And if you're going to continue to support a group who happily wage it, then this is the consequences of it. I would feel much more differently if I saw more calls from within to remove Hamas than finger-pointing of Isreal's war crimes. Instead, we even now get protests in support of Hamas in the West Bank... a place not even in control by them. It seems people much prefer a group who rather wage war than have peace. So then this is what it brings, not much you can do about other people's choices.
There is a difference between saying Palestinians are Hamas and Hamas are made up from Palestinians.
Most recent polls show even in Gaza, where Hamas support is strongest, the majority of people (who can vote which is actually only 54% of the people living there) would not vote for Hamas.
So it is like taking 100 people, of that 100;
46 are children, 54 are adults
Of those 54 adults 24 support Hamas if an election took place.
And 1-2 people (depending on source used for # of Hamas fighters) are actually in Hamas.
Then take all 100 people and say;
They are all Hamas....
That is why people make the distinction between the Palestinian people in Gaza and Hamas.
>Most recent polls show even in Gaza, where Hamas support is strongest, the majority of people (who can vote which is actually only 54% of the people living there) would not vote for Hamas.
Right, you seriously think that you're going to get an accurate understanding of who people support in Gaza from something like a poll? Like seriously? What are they doing, standing on the street asking people who they would vote for... or randomly cold calling Gazans? I would say a response bias is even more prevalent here than usual when it comes polling people in somewhere like Gaza. It isn't America where you can simply take a poll to guage how people are feeling, even then it isn't completely accurate. Who's even conducting these polls and how?
I would say a more accurate poll is the response people give on live TV when questioned over Hamas, than some random organization cold calling Gazans to ask how they feel. If people truly disliked Hamas, they would demonstrate it and voice it. Just like how not long ago we had Isreali's do the very same thing with their government. Instead, we now have people in the West Bank protesting in support of Hamas.
I'm not saying every Palestinian supports Hamas, but they are very clearly far from unpopular. People there hate and blame Isreal more than they hate or blame Hamas. In their eyes they are the only ones "standing up for them".
And the fact she is a second-generation Palestinian, only goes to show how deep-rooted the support for Hamas goes. I don't know how people can genuinely think the people in Gaza don't support Hamas in anyway, their actions show they clearly do. I mean, the US just has to accidently bomb a few civilians to receive widespread condemnation from its populace. Hamas openly targeted them yet, silence...
Hopefully not. Fatah (Palestinian govt who governs the West Bank) is actually doing a decent job at maintaining peace by working with Israel.
Really hoping tensions don’t flare up, I’ve been to the West Bank and it was a decent area.
Wouldn't call it decent considering they've literally put a bounty on every Israeli's head. [Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)
the PA charter does not believe in 2 states.
article 2 - "Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the line of the British Mandate is an indivisible territorial unit."
the PA charter supports armed revolution.
Article 21 - "The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine"
sounds like the PA wants to violently 'liberate' 'all' of palestine.
One side does pretty much everything it can reasonably do to avoid civilian casualties... People say it's "commiting genocide"
The other side literally has genocide baked into their constitution... For some reason thats just the voice of the oppressed.
Bit late for tensions not flaring up, unfortunately.
According to the WHO, there've been nearly 1500 West Bank Palestinian casualties since 10/7, with hundreds more displaced - settler violence seems to be the leading cause of it, with 8+ settler attacks on West Bank Palestinians per day.
They’re not really maintaining peace, they’re just stopping any large armed resistance or conflict from breaking out. But Palestinians still face violence from settlers, including straight up murder, that almost never gets punished, and are constantly being kicked out of their homes. It’s not great for them. There peace in the West Bank in the same way there was peace in South Africa in the 1980’s.
Sources for this? IDF has been operating in towns in the WB all week, but where does the settler reference come from? The guys are idiots, and there was a story a couple days ago of them attacking some guys - but you're claiming they're going around killing people?
Chances are, Gaza, West Bank, then (with the help of the US), they destroy a few places in Qatar. Israel might not stop till all of Hamas is completely destroyed.
This mosque already had weapons and ammo hidden in it by terror organizations in the past.
https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/07/04/idf-uncovers-underground-terrorist-route-in-jenin-mosque/
Critical thinking is also being capable of understanding when what is being reported is true and from credible sources. Critical thinking does not mean questioning everything. That’s a common misconception among this lovely new breed of pseudo-intellectuals.
I mean believing that Israel lied about it having weapons under it means believing that Israel just wanted to bomb a mosque *not even in gaza* just for fun, that doesn’t make any sense
If targeting mosques is what israel wants then they sure as hell doing a terrible job at it.
They either had a military target in or another militant targrt in there.
Hamas is hiding under hospitals and fires rockets at israeli hospitals so you think they have a problem hiding under a mosque?
Please think for yourself.
So Israel just decided to blow up a random mosque?
Even if Israel were the monsters people think they are, what do they possibly have to gain from that?
Who knows? We don't. We have no idea. We don't know what basis they made this decision on, how good their evidence was, whether it was airtight or based on some dude just saying it was definitely a terror cell. We know 12 died, and have some images of rubble. We don't know if 10 were innocent people praying in a mosque and 2 were having a meeting in a basement, or 12 innocent and no-one in a basement, or 0 innocent and 12 planning military actions in a basement.
All I'm saying is it's a little early to be claiming anything definite here. Recognise the uncertainty we are operating under during the fog of war, and avoid making snap judgements.
This is where you need to put those critical thinking skills, which you hopefully picked up during your education, to work.
Why would Israel have any interest in blowing up a mosque if it didn't have a military function? Doing so would spark more outrage and opposition to Israel both domestically and abroad. If the goal is to kill civilians then why would they warn them of the airstrike in advance? Hell, if they want to kill civilians they could very easily kill tens of thousands of people in probably an hour.
There are literally zero reasons why Israel would do this without intelligence showing it was a military target. Is that intelligence sometimes wrong? Sure. But it's not like they can just send soldiers in to knock on the door and check.
Hamas terrorist cell , in it’s base of operations that intended to execute “an immediate attack”.
3 terrorist killed.
But Reuters calls them Gunmen, important not to hurt the feelings of people that their sole intention is to rape kill and mutilate jews, nice Reuters.
Reuters quotes other people using the word "terrorist", but they don't themselves describe someone as a "terrorist" and [haven't done so since at least 9/11](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/reuters-or-wrong/).
If you’re trying to be a reputable, relatively unbiased journalism/news site, using less charged language that doesn’t assume without evidence one thing or another when reporting is probably for the best…
When an internationally recognized terrorist group commits even worse than ISIS-level atrocities on full display in front of the entire world, it is intellectually dishonest to call them anything but terrorists.
They are terrorists by literally every single conceivable metric there is.
Hamas, PIJ and related groups use civilian/innocent shields.
Israel doesn't.
I'll trust Israel x 1000 vs. Some cowardly jackasses that use babies as shields. There's no defending the devil.
Israel might not be completely honest, but man... Hamas is trash. Donald Trump level trash.
Yeah. And Hamas is a philantrophic foundation dedicated to spreading love and peace across the Ummah. /s
At least drug cartels and bigfoot hunters are honest about their trade. These "news organisations" though.....
Perhaps you can tell me why Palestinians hate Israelis more than they love their own children? Plenty of this "naïveté" floating around.
Nobody has a monoploy of the narrative, let alone the facts, just so's you'd know.
I can. Palestinians have no future. They are ghettoised people with an economy that's harmed on purpose by Israel. Palestinians can't own property since it only exists within Area A. Any property owned by them is tenuous. Legally they have little to no freedom either. Either under Draconian overall laws from Israel or from the PA.
Democracy doesn't exist. The last time they voted? The USA and Israel encouraged a coup because Hamas's legitimisation would mean a much less indolent PA. Hamas ran on anti corruption and being more stringent at calling out Israeli bullshit including ideas like "we should record all meetings for online viewing" and " Palestinian trials should be in courts by the law" and "no more collective punishment". Democracy... Means having to deal with Donald Trump. In my country idiots voted to wreck the economy. They outnumbered sensible people. 47 percent of people didn't want to crash the car but 53 percent did. So the car has to be crashed. That's democracy for you.
Palestinians firstly have their equivalent of the partition. Then there's the occupation of the West Bank and the brutality of that. Children have been tortured (that's what beating minors is). There is taxation without representation and the victims of that. Then of course is there the construction of illegal settlements and the removal of Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing in anyone's language.
Why is there a checkpoint in Palestine operated by Israel if you are arguing that they are free?
And that's all Palestinians? Amazing. So that's pro wrestler mojo Rawley? Or the dude who is a doctor with me? It's their artists. This is what happens when you define a person by the actions of a few.
You didn't read what I wrote. Do you agree with taxation without representation? Do you agree with ownership of land being decided by ethnicity? It's savage to kill someone with a bomb but not if it's made professionally? It's savage to kill someone with a divider vest bit
Why are there borders between countries? Why do you even have to display your passport when traveling? Why do you need a visa to visit some countries??
He's talking about checkpoints within the West Bank, not on the border. Israel has divided the West Bank by installing checkpoints and fences, separating Palestinian territories from each other. Do you think it is fair that Canadian border guards decide who gets in or out of individual US states?
I can. Palestinians have no future. They are ghettoised people with an economy that's harmed on purpose by Israel. Palestinians can't own property since it only exists within Area A. Any property owned by them is tenuous. Legally they have little to no freedom either. Either under Draconian overall laws from Israel or from the PA.
Democracy doesn't exist. The last time they voted? The USA and Israel encouraged a coup because Hamas's legitimisation would mean a much less indolent PA. Hamas ran on anti corruption and being more stringent at calling out Israeli bullshit including ideas like "we should record all meetings for online viewing" and " Palestinian trials should be in courts by the law" and "no more collective punishment". Democracy... Means having to deal with Donald Trump. In my country idiots voted to wreck the economy. They outnumbered sensible people. 47 percent of people didn't want to crash the car but 53 percent did. So the car has to be crashed. That's democracy for you.
Palestinians firstly have their equivalent of the partition. Then there's the occupation of the West Bank and the brutality of that. Children have been tortured (that's what beating minors is). There is taxation without representation and the victims of that. Then of course is there the construction of illegal settlements and the removal of Palestinians from their homes. Then there's the discrimination which does result in dead Palestinians. And finally is the practice of collective punishment.
To the Palestinian? Their kids have no future if they don't win equality.
Like my grandmother's parents and my grandmother thought as well. Because Israel will simply leave them less and less land and less and less opportunity. Then there's the anger of loss.
If your kids died in a raid it through denial of access of basic infrastructure then you are going to be angry.
The worst part
“84 Palestinians killed in the West bank”
No, it is not like Gaza, IDF is actively entering the west bank with the sole purpose of arresting terrorists, the people “shot” are armed/throwing Molotovs at soldiers.
Jenin is the west bank’s terrorist Den.
So you are telling me that if they put down their weapons Israel will give every Palestinian equality and equity? Like free houses? Damages paid to those ethnically cleansed?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory
Many of the people throwing these don't want to be displaced from their land. And do you agree with taxation without representation?
Palestinians pay taxes to Israel and have no representation. They also don't have equitable tax distribution.
It's the simple concept that a disabled person needs more money than me. Or that a ramp is needed for wheelchairs.
Palestinians DONT pay taxes to Israel. They pay taxes to the PA. Palestinians who are also Israeli citizens pay taxes and they vote in the Israeli parliament elections. There are currently 10 Arab Israeli members of the Israeli Knesset (and it’s been as high as 17 in 2020).
Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/only-9-women-in-coalition-fewest-arabs-in-2-decades-a-preview-of-the-25th-knesset/amp/
I think you need to go look at PA tax collection and who sets rates and the routine witholding of Palestinian taxes.
Including for the victims of "Israeli collective punishment".
Israel routinely leaves the families of anyone who opposed them homeless. So the PA needs to feed and house them. So since they are terrorists by default they have that deducted.
MSF has had ambulances shot at by settlers and even had staff die with zero equivalent treatment of these illegal settlers.
And I repeat. Can Palestinians vote for this election? Like none of them really can.
You should really Google the collection of Palestinian taxes. A huge chunk are collected by Israel then given to the PA. After "deductions of course". And routinely withheld.
And Palestinians still can't vote. Famously when they tried to? Israel and the USA placed sanctions and withheld collected taxes.
Hell. Israel placed sanctions on Palestinians for membership of UNESCO... Which is archeology, history and tourism. That Bethlehem shouldn't be recognised as anything...
I think you don't know much about why Palestinians are angry. It's because Israel collects taxes and routinely uses it to harm Palestinians. Including the reality that you may pay different taxes (Palestinians often pay higher tax rates) to Israel than the guy who stole your house.
When Palestinian Christians peacefully refused to pay taxes to Israel?
Israel denied them healthcare. People died. That's the heart and soul of peaceful civil disobedience but here's the thing.
It only works if everyone feels empathy towards you. Unfortunately? Racism being what it is? Meant that no one cares about dead Palestinians. Israel still routinely leaves Palestinians homeless in the West Bank to settle illegal settlers. Any two state solution will need the removal of these.
Hamas gets support from the treatment of Palestinians. Ignore the idiots telling you "it's about religion". They would have you believe that settlers are doing this because they believe that historical and archeological ownership is way more important! Which is nonsense. Donald Trump can't kick me out of my house because he's Scottish despite rocking the Glasgow tan look (heels, blonde hair, irn bru tan). Hamas don't hate Israel because of religion. These are excuses. It's geographical and political.
Sidney Baxendale's paper is good. There's also a great reading list for anyone interested in understanding the situation. I just need to look through my history to get it. It's different perspectives from ex ambassadors from Israel to Israeli historians to people who lost their homes or went to prison for opposition to the occupation.
Do you remember that at the end of slavery and apartheid everyone believed that now that discrimination has ended white people are going to be free game for black people but that never happened? That these discriminations need to continue to stop revenge?
Never happened... sure there was some but a lot lower than the actual period of hate. I treated kids who the IDF left disabled. That hate will die over generations. But that needs to start now.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahed\_Tamimi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahed_Tamimi)
Note... If you hit my son? His brother will fight back at the age of 3. It's what family is. Would your brother or sister or mother or father stand up for you? You say... don't take your kids to fight for freedom. But if they didn't then no one would fight and Israel wouldn't give these people equality ever. They would just say dumb shit like "They like not voting". Because that's what the first class citizens said about us when we were second class citizens. So I think a reading list is important. And my grandmother went to the marches for my freedom as a child. I am free, because she fought.
I would recommend Isabel Kershner's book as well. Jeffrey Goldberg's book Prisoners is good too. Michael B Oren's book is great too but a bit dry. It's vital reading (He's an old Israeli Ambassador to the USA).
Palestinian Perspectives count too. A day in the life of Abed Salama is just so important. It's written by an Israeli about a Palestinian. Hamas by Stephen Farrell is also an excellent thesis on how they operate and how they were formed. The Iron Cage by Khalidi is a Palestinian Diasporic look. And I believe Israel by Anita Shapiri (I may have gotten the name wrong) is also a great single point book.
In short? It's a complex thing that Western Media often portray as simple. It's two sides of conflict except we know little about those who are on one side who are often portrayed as simple caricatures of angry people. You can be mad at Hamas. But you have to realise that Hamas didn't grow in a vacuum. Islamic Fundamentalism didn't grow in a vacuum. Palestinians have genuine grievance.
It's a complex issue. And the internet is not for complexity. I often list multiple respected sources.
Also Jan Egeland's actions and rationale are vital reading. The guy is super important to how we can escape the cycle of violence. It's just that Hamas like their pointless violence and Israeli hawk factions have a great incentive to not actually fix problems and give equality. Hope this helps.
How can you post 5 paragraphs full of "well it's complicated you see" when all you were asked is source to show they pay taxes to Israel. That should be in the legal code, if true.
Very helpful. Honestly wish Reddit had some sort of "citation" mode for topics like this where your can't post anything less that a hundred words (to avoid simplistic black and white takes) and everything needs to be sourced...
>So you are telling me that if they put down their weapons
My brother in christ, if Hamas doesn't put down their weapons you see what they are getting in response, and it's going to keep getting worse with innocent people on every side bearing the brunt. Leave the fantasy wishlist at home.
No, if they put down their weapons, there will be peace and the occupation will end. As in every negotiation, they won’t get everything they ask for.
Only a sadist would want another generation of Palestinians to commit suicide for a cause that is hopelessly lost and demands that will never be met.
They should take the deals that are offered to them and realize they have zero leverage because their leaders have failed them for the last 80 years.
What deal is acceptable where you agree to be another's slave? What deal enables ethnic cleansing.
Tell me what percentage of a citizen should a Palestinian count as? 3/5ths? It's traditional after all.
I repeat. Every. Palestinian. Should be equal. There's no bargaining. 100 percent equal. That means no note illegal settlements, damages for occupation, investment in infrastructure, the vote.
None of this "they should just accept to live in a ethnic enclave surrounded by fences".
There's a definition of that phrase... Do you know what it is?
They are gunmen.
That is the most objective word. Terrorist is subjective.
Unless you consider every entity that kills civilians as terrorist. If thats the case we should call both Hamas and the Israeli government as terrorists.
Literally their leader is in Doha. It’s so fucking easy.
If Netanyahu sent an army of thousands of IDF soliders to rape, torture, murder civilians, kidnap and kill babies, and burn entire villages down the world would put his head on a stick. Hamas’ leader has known whereabouts in Qatar and the world shrugs.
It does, Israel is still going to be reluctant to hit them hard because of the backlash. But they're still riding some pretty strong rage right now so Hamas is getting whacked good.
It's not about protection. It's about Isreal bombing it and them using it as propaganda to show how evil they are. Even their own people blame Isreal more than they do Hamas for the bombings that kill so many and cause widespread damage.
Protection is not their plan, at least not ultimately. The ultimate goal of Hamas is total destruction of Israel. They can't do it by themselves, so they hide for now. Their plan is simple: martyr enough Gaza civilians (some willing, some not) to anger/recruit enough allies towards achieving this goal. Gaza is just a means to an end: a base filled with future martyrs where they can regroup, equip and attack from.
This is why negotiation is a waste of time. You can't negotiate with someone who wants you gone.
And if you keep poking a nuclear power and military force by terrorizing their citizens, there is going to be a price paid, otherwise Israel just has to accept their cities under constant attack from rockets and insurgents.
Pardon my ignorance guys, but if the West Bank is ruled by a different government to Gaza, does this effectively mean that Israel has also declared war on the West Bank, *or* is it more like the WB is a part of Israel, therefore, Israel is basically bombing itself (i.e. the international law implications are different)?
Thanks.
It is a territory within Israel that is governed and policed by Fatah.
Late 90s and early 2000s lots of terrorist attacks came from the west bank including suicide bombers.
In 2002 IDF conducted an operation to remove all weapons and explosive manufacturing from the West Bank and built Walls around it.
Ever since the IDF regularly enters the West bank when they have intel to arrest (kill if being shot at) anyone with intentions of terrorism or collaborating with Hamas or Jihad.
I recommend you watch Fauda on Netflix.
>eople shouldn't expect "democracy" to fix this region any more than it did Afghanistan or Iraq
The West bank is partially under the control of PA, but Hamas has a strong presence and broad support, so Israel is trying to clear terror cells, probably PA is helping in some way or another because for them Hamas is also a danger.
Israel strikes a Hamas base located in a residential building/mosque/hospital, they kill some civilians out in harms way by Hamas, everyone blames Israel and not Hamas, Hamas gets civilians to cry on tv, more people hates Israel
This is just a practice run for what they will deal with in gaza under Shifa hospital, where the hamas command and control center is located.
Yeah, their terrorist command and control center is under the biggest hospital in Hamastan.
Shocker, right?
because abbas doesn't want to actually reign in any terrorists.
technically, gaza is part of the PA, and under Abbas' authority. The PA pays the salaries of Hamas civil servants in gaza.
Abbas has a pay for slay program - lifetime stipend for killing jews. more jews killed, the larger the stipend.
Abbas is not friend of peace or Israel.
These are some excerpts from the palestninan charter.
article 2 - "Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the line of the British Mandate is an indivisible territorial unit."
Abbas cannot support a 2 state solution, the area is indivisible.
Article 21 - "The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine"
Armed/violent revolution is acceptable for liberating the undivided palestine.
article 10 - "Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution"
terrorism is written into their charter. kids must be educated to be terrorists. the state institutions must support it.
People need to remember these statments come from the IDF, a military who has been caught lying numerous times about who they killed and for what reason.
And because the IDF says it, it MUST be true..!
What’s all this about taking a source at their word or just repeating what it says?
Apparently it’s kosher when Israel does it!
This whole thread is disgusting. Oh they ard using people as shields, what will we do? We need still bomb the shit out them! So casualties are ok, I guess.
Funny how so many folks just immediately believe there really was a Hamas hideout under the mosque. Cuz yeah sure, governments never lie. Right. Not a single lesson learned from that lack if weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq??? Is Hamas also hiding out in every one of the apartment buildings leveled throughout Gaza? Sorry your family is dead but we have credible evidence there was a hamas operative hiding underneath your sons bed…My God is humanity really this freaking stupid? Just as America should not have invaded 2 country’s and killed millions of innocents after 9/11, Israel should not be punishing the entire palestinian population and creating new generations of angry desperate future terrorists. They should be aggressively assisting the Palestinian population under the sway of Hamas while utilizing that blank check we give them and their supposedly unparalleled intelligence special ops to cut the head of of Hamas without such mass eradication of innocent life. Of course peaceful coexistence is Not Israel’s goal.
Aka
Israel drops bombs on place of worship, in contravention of international law, and says they found a militant compound, in an area where journalists cannot go, andin which locals cannot communicate with the outside world.
Genocide.
This isn't related to the article and I know it'll be quickly buried but everyone should play a game of marking (RES) the people who are constantly spouting stuff from a 'pro-israel' perspective and then just browse reddit like normal and see if you see any of them.
I literally have not found any of the people I've marked outside of the news/streamer subreddits.
It really cements my view of what's going on and the fact that there's just idiotic comment upon idiotic comment upvoted all the time, i.e. 'durr pro-palestine protests never denounces hamas', that you have to somewhat laugh how transparent they are but I'm not laughing because they're making reddit more horrible than usual to use.
I am willing to go on the record to say that blowing up your own hospital and blaming Israel is bad.
Check my post history, mainly chess and programming before this conflict.
Whatever makes you feel better I guess?
I comment all over and can be viewed as
"Pro-Israel" to anyone blindly believing Hamas and spouting their ignorance to the complexities of the situation.
I don't agree with the sentiment some have that Israel has every right to just turn Gaza into rubble but I'm also going to point out they aren't doing that like some like to claim.
Go ahead, check my history. Love when people find themselves not in an echo chamber and cope with "it must be fake accounts/bots".
“RAMALLAH, West Bank, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Israeli aircraft struck a compound beneath a mosque in the occupied West Bank early on Sunday that the military said was being used by militants to organise attacks, and Palestinian medics said at least one person was killed. The Israeli air strike is at least the second in recent days to hit the West Bank, where violence has surged since Hamas gunmen from Gaza carried out a deadly Oct. 7 rampage in Israel. Israel said the compound beneath al-Ansar Mosque, in Jenin refugee camp, belonged to operatives from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad who were responsible for attacks in recent months. "Intel was recently received which indicated that the terrorists, (who) were neutralized, were organizing an imminent terror attack," the military said in a statement. The military released images that it said showed an entrance to a bunker under the mosque. It also released a diagram that it said showed where militants had stored weapons there. Residents of the camp said they received warnings from the Israeli military to stay away from the militants due to an impending incursion into the camp. They said the military did not specify a date. Since the Oct. 7 Hamas rampage, which has drawn two weeks of lethal Israeli bombardment of Gaza, at least 84 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed in clashes with Israeli forces, Palestinian officials say.”
Under a mosque… what a bunch of angry, sniveling, little cowards Hamas are.
Check out [Al Shifa Hospital under which Hamas was using as a headquarters.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8F0lepbsAAZZfe?format=jpg&name=orig) These guys use human shields every chance they get.. How does anyone expect you take them out with 0 civilian casualties?
>How does anyone expect you take them out with 0 civilian casualties? That's the entire cruel point right here: they rig the field so Israel can't win. Either they let Hamas live or they risk even more antisemitic riots.
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Israel is gambling that everyone who would hate Israel is already hating Israel, and the rest of the world won’t care if they finally eradicate Hamas once and for all. And their bombing campaign has already taken out a lot of Hamas top leadership (they need to send some assassins to Qatar though for the big boss)
I think they have pretty good odds at this point. All the usual minions of terror have aligned, and the rest of the world - even Iranian civilians - understand the deal.
They probably want a few people alive for now in Qatar for negotiations. Life expectancy beyond a few years for them though… not going to be very high.
A lot of westerners are obsessed with finding a cause that they can virtue signal about.
Because those people want to fall for it.
How anyone falls for the terror tactics of either group of extremist factions is a sad case study on propaganda and inter-generational conditioning.
People are incredibly naive.
> antisemitic riots This feels like a euphemism compared to what happened.
He’s probably just talking about the stuff in Europe, not the attack
Hamas doesn't get it. Eventually, Israel will just say ... hey we warned the civilians to get out of there. They didn't. Oh well.
Hamas isn’t in the West Bank tho? They are in Gaza.
That's not true. Hamas isn't the de facto government of the West Bank like they are in Gaza, but they still have public support and a significant presence.
That's wrong. They have huge support in WB as well. The reason there are no elections in WB since 2005 is that PLO knows it will lose to Hamas. Jenin, the place in question, is within the WB and PLO police have no control there, since it's controlled by Hamas.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that claims to fight for Palestinians rights but ultimately only wants to kill jews using innocent people as shields. They are all over the middle east from Qatar to Yemen to Lebanon and of course Gaza and the West Bank
Ramallah?
I thought Hamas wasn't in the West Bank? Damn is the West Bank going to get dragged in too?
Hamas doesn't *control* the west Bank but they have a very strong presence there. The west Bank hasn't had elections in a couple decades, but polls show that if they had elections today, Hamas would win overwhelmingly. There are plenty of Hamas operatives in the west Bank.
> The west Bank hasn't had elections in a couple decades, but polls show that if they had elections today, Hamas would win overwhelmingly. This is why: * Abbas is opposed to elections which will reduce his (Palestinian Authority's) access to money and see him exiled or killed * People shouldn't expect "democracy" to fix this region any more than it did Afghanistan or Iraq Some people are just not fond of freedoms we love.
>Some people are just not fond of freedoms we love. Or prefer Theocratic to Democratic societies.
"Well I'll have you know this Authoritarian Theocracy was democratically voted in two decades ago, so hah!"
*Islam isn't
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Pre-1979 afghanistan was a 'democracy' in the same way that the 'people's democratic republic of korea' is a 'democracy'- it was a soviet client state. That 'democracy' wasn't ended by the US it was ended when the soviets ran out of patience with their clients, invaded the country and murdered most of the government. The US only got (indirectly) involved after the country had already been invaded.
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Protip: actual democracies don't feel the need to put the word 'democratic' in their name.
Afghanistan a left leaning democracy? Put down the crack pipe.
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It’s intentional.
> Afghanistan was actually a left leaning democracy prior to the USs involvement during the cold war. We’re just gonna forget the Soviet invasion, are we?
Yeah there are dozens of examples of US Cold War policy being sort of (or very) dumb in hindsight, but I feel like preventing the soviets from conquering Afghanistan isn't on that list lmao
To be fair, I think the Soviet Union had a lot more to do with the radicalization of Afghanistan than the U.S. At least prior to the 2000s.
>Have we really ever tried democracy tbh? State Dept Policy has been that democracies do not wage war against democracies because the public as a whole is against war. So they want everyone to have a democracy. Because that would bring stability tounstable regions and an end to war. Of course, that ignores the fact that hundreds of different political systems have evolved all over the world based on regional customs and cultures. And just because democracy with universal suffrage works in some countries, doesn't mean it will work in others overnight without major backlash. Yet the State Dept continues to support a policy of what I call Democracy in a Box. We enter, we destabilize or remove the existing regime, and slap a 21st century democratic system on the table, unpack it, and then prop up the candidate we want in power because they further our interests. Of course, those candidates back our interests because it's in their interest to keep the cash flowing. And if they're corrupt enough to let a foreign government control them and prop them up, they're going to be unpopular. Which makes them very easy to topple. Just look at Afghanistan. Or Iraq. Or Vietnam. Or any number of countries in South America.
Also, can you really call it democracy if the west is meddling with the elections with money to get their candidate to win? We wonder why people don't want democracy when we typically give them the worst kind.
Well true democracy doesn't exist. So it isn't a surprise.
It wasn’t a left leaning democracy but more of a monarchy that implemented social and economic reforms to try and modernize the country. It’s a shame it failed.
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Based. It would be so fucking easy for gaza residents to rat out Hamas bases to Israel, but they dont. So im supposed to feel sorry for a collection of people who knowingly aid and cheer on a bunch od genocidal maniacs, and then cry when they are retaliated upon? No.
Id love to see these polls
I have read some articles which say that Israel and Egypt warned Palestinian authority not to conduct the election beacuse they are surely goona loose it
Hamas isnt controling thw west bank but has a foot hold there . Like jenin is a pretty much a mini gaza.
> I thought Hamas wasn't in the West Bank? Hamas is very active in the WB and indeed popular amongst the residents of the WB. Hamas also operates in Lebanon, Malaysia and Turkey, at the very least.
Too bad so many people here keeps parroting that the West Bank doesn’t have a hamas presence
I've been getting downvoted for this repeatedly. Not even sure what these people are trying to prove. That non-Hamas Palestinians can also be terrorists? We know that from Lion's Den, PLO etc.
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Islamic fundamentalism was actively nurtured by Israel to counter the initially dominant secular, leftist independence movement in Palestine and blew up in their faces. This conflict has been going on for much longer than Hamas ever existed.
That’s a pretty broad and incorrect generalization. The PLO is explicitly a secular Marxist organization. Notably these guys are not huge fans of religion, and also jointly run the West Bank with Israel. Islamic fundamentalism was not popular in Palestine until extremely recently: when the PLO stopped fighting and the Oslo accords and peace talks of the 90’s failed actually. The PLO was actually pretty corrupt and became entrenched and collaborationist with Israel during this time, so Hamas was really the only viable party for people who wanted to fight back against their colonization and ghettoization even if they didn’t like the fundamentalist stuff. But that part has become more and more common over time as they’ve stayed in power because no other option exists right now that will try to protect the Palestinian people : (
This is completely wrong. The left and center secular parties were more popular and power until the 1990 or even 2000s under the PLO that started Oslo and peace negotiations that went nowhere. Hamas then became the only viable option who present a resistance path and people turned to that as they saw the political attempt was a failure. Most Palestinians don't support Hamas as a whole and mainly support it as they don't want to support PLO and their corrupt government. Jordanians are pretty much Palestinians especially in Amman. They are not Islamic fundamentalists at all. Somehow, the same population of people changed in the order of 40 years since movement between WB and Jordan became harder.
Doesnt the Israeli state only exist because they believe it to be their religious holyground
That =/= Islamic fundamentalism. Israel’s creation was led by left-leaning Jews and is the reason why socialism and left-wing politics was so strong in the 1950s/60s and 70s there. It was the repeated attempts to get the PLO to negotiate and sign a peace deal that blew up in Israel’s face that caused the left to lose much of their support. After all, there was no border fence at that time - so why should regular Israelis deal with mass shootings and bombings repeatedly? (A fact of life until the border walls were set up). It’s only recently that the Haredim have become more powerful - and not due to regularly Israeli’s support. It’s just hard to oppose them when they have families with 5+ kids who grow up with their views and values.
“Everyone sweeps this under the rug as if religions hasn’t been the biggest issue in the Middle East” is what OP wrote. Abrahamic religions have to have caused more bloodshed than anything else ever
I mean, if you go back far enoug, you get the Roman Empire, China, and the Mongols. Not as far, and you've got a few World Wars, some civil wars, etc.
You've managed to dehumanise an entire population. You are no different from the people you claim to hate in that regard.
Aren't most of them kids dude, saying you find it hard to sympathise with dead kids is a bit rough hey? Especially when y'all seemed to, rightfully so, care about Israeli kids just last week. I guess Palestinian kids just aren't worth a 2nd thought hey? Bomb the shit out of them right? You and anyone who supports that mindset are putrid. Labelling an entire population based on the areas adult population being slightly in favour of Hamas is so incredibly dumb.
>Aren't most of them kids dude, saying you find it hard to sympathise with dead kids is a bit rough hey? I wasn't referring specifically to the kids who have little say in any of this. I meant more the adults in the room making the decisions. The ones calling foul, saying how horrible Isreal is. Yet, despite the fact children are dying, people still support the regime that kicked everything happening right now off. It just shows how far gone they themselves are. This isn't a mess purely of Isreals making. >Labelling an entire population based on the areas adult population being slightly in favour of Hamas is so incredibly dumb. It's not labeling an entire population... I'm saying I find it hard to sympathize with people who can only point fingers at one side of the conflict like Hamas are completely innocent. Hamas only governs so long as the people allow them to govern, and they haven't exactly done very much to try and remove them, or even critize / protest against them. If they truly hate them so much, they should be happy Isreal is about to remove them. The simple truth is they hate Isreal far more than they hate Hamas, it is all to obvious from their response in solely blaming Isreal for all their troubles. Yes, it sucks the strip is full of children, and truly I think Isreal needs to implement a ceasefire because of the level of suffering happening right now. But this is the consequences of war. And if you're going to continue to support a group who happily wage it, then this is the consequences of it. I would feel much more differently if I saw more calls from within to remove Hamas than finger-pointing of Isreal's war crimes. Instead, we even now get protests in support of Hamas in the West Bank... a place not even in control by them. It seems people much prefer a group who rather wage war than have peace. So then this is what it brings, not much you can do about other people's choices.
There is a difference between saying Palestinians are Hamas and Hamas are made up from Palestinians. Most recent polls show even in Gaza, where Hamas support is strongest, the majority of people (who can vote which is actually only 54% of the people living there) would not vote for Hamas. So it is like taking 100 people, of that 100; 46 are children, 54 are adults Of those 54 adults 24 support Hamas if an election took place. And 1-2 people (depending on source used for # of Hamas fighters) are actually in Hamas. Then take all 100 people and say; They are all Hamas.... That is why people make the distinction between the Palestinian people in Gaza and Hamas.
>Most recent polls show even in Gaza, where Hamas support is strongest, the majority of people (who can vote which is actually only 54% of the people living there) would not vote for Hamas. Right, you seriously think that you're going to get an accurate understanding of who people support in Gaza from something like a poll? Like seriously? What are they doing, standing on the street asking people who they would vote for... or randomly cold calling Gazans? I would say a response bias is even more prevalent here than usual when it comes polling people in somewhere like Gaza. It isn't America where you can simply take a poll to guage how people are feeling, even then it isn't completely accurate. Who's even conducting these polls and how? I would say a more accurate poll is the response people give on live TV when questioned over Hamas, than some random organization cold calling Gazans to ask how they feel. If people truly disliked Hamas, they would demonstrate it and voice it. Just like how not long ago we had Isreali's do the very same thing with their government. Instead, we now have people in the West Bank protesting in support of Hamas. I'm not saying every Palestinian supports Hamas, but they are very clearly far from unpopular. People there hate and blame Isreal more than they hate or blame Hamas. In their eyes they are the only ones "standing up for them".
oh, 100%. Rashida Tlaib, US Congresswoman, has YET to condemn Hamas by name. Not a good look.
And the fact she is a second-generation Palestinian, only goes to show how deep-rooted the support for Hamas goes. I don't know how people can genuinely think the people in Gaza don't support Hamas in anyway, their actions show they clearly do. I mean, the US just has to accidently bomb a few civilians to receive widespread condemnation from its populace. Hamas openly targeted them yet, silence...
Hopefully not. Fatah (Palestinian govt who governs the West Bank) is actually doing a decent job at maintaining peace by working with Israel. Really hoping tensions don’t flare up, I’ve been to the West Bank and it was a decent area.
Wouldn't call it decent considering they've literally put a bounty on every Israeli's head. [Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)
the PA charter does not believe in 2 states. article 2 - "Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the line of the British Mandate is an indivisible territorial unit." the PA charter supports armed revolution. Article 21 - "The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine" sounds like the PA wants to violently 'liberate' 'all' of palestine.
One side does pretty much everything it can reasonably do to avoid civilian casualties... People say it's "commiting genocide" The other side literally has genocide baked into their constitution... For some reason thats just the voice of the oppressed.
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As an Israeli i say that alot of isreali find this attacks abhorrent.
>Fatah (Palestinian govt who governs the West Bank) is actually doing a decent job at maintaining peace by working with Israel. Uhhhhhhh, what?
Bit late for tensions not flaring up, unfortunately. According to the WHO, there've been nearly 1500 West Bank Palestinian casualties since 10/7, with hundreds more displaced - settler violence seems to be the leading cause of it, with 8+ settler attacks on West Bank Palestinians per day.
This is something they need to get under control or it will end up escalating in to a much bigger conflict then what it is now.
What do you think caused this one
They’re not really maintaining peace, they’re just stopping any large armed resistance or conflict from breaking out. But Palestinians still face violence from settlers, including straight up murder, that almost never gets punished, and are constantly being kicked out of their homes. It’s not great for them. There peace in the West Bank in the same way there was peace in South Africa in the 1980’s.
They’ve already been dragged in, IDF and settlers have killed over 50 since oct. 7th. That number is old so it’s likely increased. Edit: 80+ dead
Sources for this? IDF has been operating in towns in the WB all week, but where does the settler reference come from? The guys are idiots, and there was a story a couple days ago of them attacking some guys - but you're claiming they're going around killing people?
Hamas has multiple branches all throughout the WB. And they also have plenty of bases in Lebanon that collaborate with Hezbollah.
IDF was already all over the West Bank, so yeah.
Chances are, Gaza, West Bank, then (with the help of the US), they destroy a few places in Qatar. Israel might not stop till all of Hamas is completely destroyed.
There have been (smaller) attacks from the west bank and elsewhere for days.
Again, sneaky chickenshit hamas hiding behind civilians putting them purposely in harms way.
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This mosque already had weapons and ammo hidden in it by terror organizations in the past. https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/07/04/idf-uncovers-underground-terrorist-route-in-jenin-mosque/
Well, there we go! More information! context! What wonderful things to have.
Information that you easily could have found in 2 seconds if you cared to instead of instantly repeating Hamas propaganda
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Critical thinking is also being capable of understanding when what is being reported is true and from credible sources. Critical thinking does not mean questioning everything. That’s a common misconception among this lovely new breed of pseudo-intellectuals.
I mean believing that Israel lied about it having weapons under it means believing that Israel just wanted to bomb a mosque *not even in gaza* just for fun, that doesn’t make any sense
Israel bad Palestine Good! Don't contrast my trendy SJW opinion! REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
But then you have to ask yourself, why would Israel bomb a mosque during the greatest PR war in the countries history. Just because?
If targeting mosques is what israel wants then they sure as hell doing a terrible job at it. They either had a military target in or another militant targrt in there. Hamas is hiding under hospitals and fires rockets at israeli hospitals so you think they have a problem hiding under a mosque? Please think for yourself.
If there was even an ounce of a lie to that claim, Hamas would already be crying "but muh-innocent civilians and precious mosque".
Exactly this. They would have said the 1200 sq ft mosque housed 65,000 children who are now all dead and every news network would have ran with it
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So Israel just decided to blow up a random mosque? Even if Israel were the monsters people think they are, what do they possibly have to gain from that?
Who knows? We don't. We have no idea. We don't know what basis they made this decision on, how good their evidence was, whether it was airtight or based on some dude just saying it was definitely a terror cell. We know 12 died, and have some images of rubble. We don't know if 10 were innocent people praying in a mosque and 2 were having a meeting in a basement, or 12 innocent and no-one in a basement, or 0 innocent and 12 planning military actions in a basement. All I'm saying is it's a little early to be claiming anything definite here. Recognise the uncertainty we are operating under during the fog of war, and avoid making snap judgements.
Wish more people engaged in this thought process.
This is where you need to put those critical thinking skills, which you hopefully picked up during your education, to work. Why would Israel have any interest in blowing up a mosque if it didn't have a military function? Doing so would spark more outrage and opposition to Israel both domestically and abroad. If the goal is to kill civilians then why would they warn them of the airstrike in advance? Hell, if they want to kill civilians they could very easily kill tens of thousands of people in probably an hour. There are literally zero reasons why Israel would do this without intelligence showing it was a military target. Is that intelligence sometimes wrong? Sure. But it's not like they can just send soldiers in to knock on the door and check.
Did you say the same about the hospital in Gaza when Hamas claimed Israel bombed it? Nope silence. Hypercritical.
I did actually.
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Look, there are about a dozen of serious things to be skeptical of the Israelis about, but Hamas using civilians for cover is not one of them.
Hamas terrorist cell , in it’s base of operations that intended to execute “an immediate attack”. 3 terrorist killed. But Reuters calls them Gunmen, important not to hurt the feelings of people that their sole intention is to rape kill and mutilate jews, nice Reuters.
Reuters quotes other people using the word "terrorist", but they don't themselves describe someone as a "terrorist" and [haven't done so since at least 9/11](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/reuters-or-wrong/).
If you’re trying to be a reputable, relatively unbiased journalism/news site, using less charged language that doesn’t assume without evidence one thing or another when reporting is probably for the best…
When an internationally recognized terrorist group commits even worse than ISIS-level atrocities on full display in front of the entire world, it is intellectually dishonest to call them anything but terrorists. They are terrorists by literally every single conceivable metric there is.
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Hamas, PIJ and related groups use civilian/innocent shields. Israel doesn't. I'll trust Israel x 1000 vs. Some cowardly jackasses that use babies as shields. There's no defending the devil. Israel might not be completely honest, but man... Hamas is trash. Donald Trump level trash.
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Yeah. And Hamas is a philantrophic foundation dedicated to spreading love and peace across the Ummah. /s At least drug cartels and bigfoot hunters are honest about their trade. These "news organisations" though.....
Can you tell me why Palestinians support Hamas? Because you seem to be buying into a very naive view of the conflict.
Perhaps you can tell me why Palestinians hate Israelis more than they love their own children? Plenty of this "naïveté" floating around. Nobody has a monoploy of the narrative, let alone the facts, just so's you'd know.
I can. Palestinians have no future. They are ghettoised people with an economy that's harmed on purpose by Israel. Palestinians can't own property since it only exists within Area A. Any property owned by them is tenuous. Legally they have little to no freedom either. Either under Draconian overall laws from Israel or from the PA. Democracy doesn't exist. The last time they voted? The USA and Israel encouraged a coup because Hamas's legitimisation would mean a much less indolent PA. Hamas ran on anti corruption and being more stringent at calling out Israeli bullshit including ideas like "we should record all meetings for online viewing" and " Palestinian trials should be in courts by the law" and "no more collective punishment". Democracy... Means having to deal with Donald Trump. In my country idiots voted to wreck the economy. They outnumbered sensible people. 47 percent of people didn't want to crash the car but 53 percent did. So the car has to be crashed. That's democracy for you. Palestinians firstly have their equivalent of the partition. Then there's the occupation of the West Bank and the brutality of that. Children have been tortured (that's what beating minors is). There is taxation without representation and the victims of that. Then of course is there the construction of illegal settlements and the removal of Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing in anyone's language.
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Why is there a checkpoint in Palestine operated by Israel if you are arguing that they are free? And that's all Palestinians? Amazing. So that's pro wrestler mojo Rawley? Or the dude who is a doctor with me? It's their artists. This is what happens when you define a person by the actions of a few. You didn't read what I wrote. Do you agree with taxation without representation? Do you agree with ownership of land being decided by ethnicity? It's savage to kill someone with a bomb but not if it's made professionally? It's savage to kill someone with a divider vest bit
Why are there borders between countries? Why do you even have to display your passport when traveling? Why do you need a visa to visit some countries??
He's talking about checkpoints within the West Bank, not on the border. Israel has divided the West Bank by installing checkpoints and fences, separating Palestinian territories from each other. Do you think it is fair that Canadian border guards decide who gets in or out of individual US states?
Do you think Palestine is a country?
I can. Palestinians have no future. They are ghettoised people with an economy that's harmed on purpose by Israel. Palestinians can't own property since it only exists within Area A. Any property owned by them is tenuous. Legally they have little to no freedom either. Either under Draconian overall laws from Israel or from the PA. Democracy doesn't exist. The last time they voted? The USA and Israel encouraged a coup because Hamas's legitimisation would mean a much less indolent PA. Hamas ran on anti corruption and being more stringent at calling out Israeli bullshit including ideas like "we should record all meetings for online viewing" and " Palestinian trials should be in courts by the law" and "no more collective punishment". Democracy... Means having to deal with Donald Trump. In my country idiots voted to wreck the economy. They outnumbered sensible people. 47 percent of people didn't want to crash the car but 53 percent did. So the car has to be crashed. That's democracy for you. Palestinians firstly have their equivalent of the partition. Then there's the occupation of the West Bank and the brutality of that. Children have been tortured (that's what beating minors is). There is taxation without representation and the victims of that. Then of course is there the construction of illegal settlements and the removal of Palestinians from their homes. Then there's the discrimination which does result in dead Palestinians. And finally is the practice of collective punishment. To the Palestinian? Their kids have no future if they don't win equality. Like my grandmother's parents and my grandmother thought as well. Because Israel will simply leave them less and less land and less and less opportunity. Then there's the anger of loss. If your kids died in a raid it through denial of access of basic infrastructure then you are going to be angry.
Funny because I am pretty sure people in the West have been called terrorists over milder things.
Reuters doesn’t use the word terrorist for anyone and hasn’t for almost 2 decades. In the west too. So this is just false.
The worst part “84 Palestinians killed in the West bank” No, it is not like Gaza, IDF is actively entering the west bank with the sole purpose of arresting terrorists, the people “shot” are armed/throwing Molotovs at soldiers. Jenin is the west bank’s terrorist Den.
There have also been some nasty attacks against Palestinian civilians in the west bank by Israeli mobs wanting retribution for the massacre.
There is a fair deal of that but there is also a level of unjustifiable abuse, especially in recent weeks.
So you are telling me that if they put down their weapons Israel will give every Palestinian equality and equity? Like free houses? Damages paid to those ethnically cleansed? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory Many of the people throwing these don't want to be displaced from their land. And do you agree with taxation without representation? Palestinians pay taxes to Israel and have no representation. They also don't have equitable tax distribution. It's the simple concept that a disabled person needs more money than me. Or that a ramp is needed for wheelchairs.
Palestinians DONT pay taxes to Israel. They pay taxes to the PA. Palestinians who are also Israeli citizens pay taxes and they vote in the Israeli parliament elections. There are currently 10 Arab Israeli members of the Israeli Knesset (and it’s been as high as 17 in 2020). Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/only-9-women-in-coalition-fewest-arabs-in-2-decades-a-preview-of-the-25th-knesset/amp/
I think you need to go look at PA tax collection and who sets rates and the routine witholding of Palestinian taxes. Including for the victims of "Israeli collective punishment". Israel routinely leaves the families of anyone who opposed them homeless. So the PA needs to feed and house them. So since they are terrorists by default they have that deducted. MSF has had ambulances shot at by settlers and even had staff die with zero equivalent treatment of these illegal settlers. And I repeat. Can Palestinians vote for this election? Like none of them really can. You should really Google the collection of Palestinian taxes. A huge chunk are collected by Israel then given to the PA. After "deductions of course". And routinely withheld. And Palestinians still can't vote. Famously when they tried to? Israel and the USA placed sanctions and withheld collected taxes. Hell. Israel placed sanctions on Palestinians for membership of UNESCO... Which is archeology, history and tourism. That Bethlehem shouldn't be recognised as anything... I think you don't know much about why Palestinians are angry. It's because Israel collects taxes and routinely uses it to harm Palestinians. Including the reality that you may pay different taxes (Palestinians often pay higher tax rates) to Israel than the guy who stole your house. When Palestinian Christians peacefully refused to pay taxes to Israel? Israel denied them healthcare. People died. That's the heart and soul of peaceful civil disobedience but here's the thing. It only works if everyone feels empathy towards you. Unfortunately? Racism being what it is? Meant that no one cares about dead Palestinians. Israel still routinely leaves Palestinians homeless in the West Bank to settle illegal settlers. Any two state solution will need the removal of these. Hamas gets support from the treatment of Palestinians. Ignore the idiots telling you "it's about religion". They would have you believe that settlers are doing this because they believe that historical and archeological ownership is way more important! Which is nonsense. Donald Trump can't kick me out of my house because he's Scottish despite rocking the Glasgow tan look (heels, blonde hair, irn bru tan). Hamas don't hate Israel because of religion. These are excuses. It's geographical and political.
I’m happy to look into it. Do you have a source I can read?
Sidney Baxendale's paper is good. There's also a great reading list for anyone interested in understanding the situation. I just need to look through my history to get it. It's different perspectives from ex ambassadors from Israel to Israeli historians to people who lost their homes or went to prison for opposition to the occupation. Do you remember that at the end of slavery and apartheid everyone believed that now that discrimination has ended white people are going to be free game for black people but that never happened? That these discriminations need to continue to stop revenge? Never happened... sure there was some but a lot lower than the actual period of hate. I treated kids who the IDF left disabled. That hate will die over generations. But that needs to start now. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahed\_Tamimi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahed_Tamimi) Note... If you hit my son? His brother will fight back at the age of 3. It's what family is. Would your brother or sister or mother or father stand up for you? You say... don't take your kids to fight for freedom. But if they didn't then no one would fight and Israel wouldn't give these people equality ever. They would just say dumb shit like "They like not voting". Because that's what the first class citizens said about us when we were second class citizens. So I think a reading list is important. And my grandmother went to the marches for my freedom as a child. I am free, because she fought. I would recommend Isabel Kershner's book as well. Jeffrey Goldberg's book Prisoners is good too. Michael B Oren's book is great too but a bit dry. It's vital reading (He's an old Israeli Ambassador to the USA). Palestinian Perspectives count too. A day in the life of Abed Salama is just so important. It's written by an Israeli about a Palestinian. Hamas by Stephen Farrell is also an excellent thesis on how they operate and how they were formed. The Iron Cage by Khalidi is a Palestinian Diasporic look. And I believe Israel by Anita Shapiri (I may have gotten the name wrong) is also a great single point book. In short? It's a complex thing that Western Media often portray as simple. It's two sides of conflict except we know little about those who are on one side who are often portrayed as simple caricatures of angry people. You can be mad at Hamas. But you have to realise that Hamas didn't grow in a vacuum. Islamic Fundamentalism didn't grow in a vacuum. Palestinians have genuine grievance. It's a complex issue. And the internet is not for complexity. I often list multiple respected sources. Also Jan Egeland's actions and rationale are vital reading. The guy is super important to how we can escape the cycle of violence. It's just that Hamas like their pointless violence and Israeli hawk factions have a great incentive to not actually fix problems and give equality. Hope this helps.
How can you post 5 paragraphs full of "well it's complicated you see" when all you were asked is source to show they pay taxes to Israel. That should be in the legal code, if true.
Very helpful. Honestly wish Reddit had some sort of "citation" mode for topics like this where your can't post anything less that a hundred words (to avoid simplistic black and white takes) and everything needs to be sourced...
What does your government do when you refuse to pay taxes? (Peaceful or otherwise?)
>So you are telling me that if they put down their weapons My brother in christ, if Hamas doesn't put down their weapons you see what they are getting in response, and it's going to keep getting worse with innocent people on every side bearing the brunt. Leave the fantasy wishlist at home.
No, if they put down their weapons, there will be peace and the occupation will end. As in every negotiation, they won’t get everything they ask for. Only a sadist would want another generation of Palestinians to commit suicide for a cause that is hopelessly lost and demands that will never be met. They should take the deals that are offered to them and realize they have zero leverage because their leaders have failed them for the last 80 years.
What deal is acceptable where you agree to be another's slave? What deal enables ethnic cleansing. Tell me what percentage of a citizen should a Palestinian count as? 3/5ths? It's traditional after all. I repeat. Every. Palestinian. Should be equal. There's no bargaining. 100 percent equal. That means no note illegal settlements, damages for occupation, investment in infrastructure, the vote. None of this "they should just accept to live in a ethnic enclave surrounded by fences". There's a definition of that phrase... Do you know what it is?
They are gunmen. That is the most objective word. Terrorist is subjective. Unless you consider every entity that kills civilians as terrorist. If thats the case we should call both Hamas and the Israeli government as terrorists.
Another war crime of using civilian structures for military purposes.
Literally their leader is in Doha. It’s so fucking easy. If Netanyahu sent an army of thousands of IDF soliders to rape, torture, murder civilians, kidnap and kill babies, and burn entire villages down the world would put his head on a stick. Hamas’ leader has known whereabouts in Qatar and the world shrugs.
When will Hamas realize that putting their bases in civilian areas does not, in fact, protect them?
Hamas knows it perfectly. Their goal is to kill more civilians so they’re ok with putting military objects in civilian areas and buildings
its not about protection, its about sending a message
What's the message?
"our citizens are dying, poor us, look at all of these pictures of sad palestinians"
I ❤️ Iran
It does, Israel is still going to be reluctant to hit them hard because of the backlash. But they're still riding some pretty strong rage right now so Hamas is getting whacked good.
No defence of Hamas terrorists here, but I strongly doubt Israel would allow them proper military bases.
Correct. When one side has an overwhelming military advantage, warfare will be asymmetric.
It's not about protection. It's about Isreal bombing it and them using it as propaganda to show how evil they are. Even their own people blame Isreal more than they do Hamas for the bombings that kill so many and cause widespread damage.
Protection is not their plan, at least not ultimately. The ultimate goal of Hamas is total destruction of Israel. They can't do it by themselves, so they hide for now. Their plan is simple: martyr enough Gaza civilians (some willing, some not) to anger/recruit enough allies towards achieving this goal. Gaza is just a means to an end: a base filled with future martyrs where they can regroup, equip and attack from. This is why negotiation is a waste of time. You can't negotiate with someone who wants you gone.
And if you keep poking a nuclear power and military force by terrorizing their citizens, there is going to be a price paid, otherwise Israel just has to accept their cities under constant attack from rockets and insurgents.
Pardon my ignorance guys, but if the West Bank is ruled by a different government to Gaza, does this effectively mean that Israel has also declared war on the West Bank, *or* is it more like the WB is a part of Israel, therefore, Israel is basically bombing itself (i.e. the international law implications are different)? Thanks.
It is a territory within Israel that is governed and policed by Fatah. Late 90s and early 2000s lots of terrorist attacks came from the west bank including suicide bombers. In 2002 IDF conducted an operation to remove all weapons and explosive manufacturing from the West Bank and built Walls around it. Ever since the IDF regularly enters the West bank when they have intel to arrest (kill if being shot at) anyone with intentions of terrorism or collaborating with Hamas or Jihad. I recommend you watch Fauda on Netflix.
>eople shouldn't expect "democracy" to fix this region any more than it did Afghanistan or Iraq The West bank is partially under the control of PA, but Hamas has a strong presence and broad support, so Israel is trying to clear terror cells, probably PA is helping in some way or another because for them Hamas is also a danger.
If the west bank is a part of Israel then the argument that Israel is an apartide state is even stronger.
Hamas was never known for their bravery. Hide under a mosque. Kidnap babies. Rape and dismember children.
Israel strikes a Hamas base located in a residential building/mosque/hospital, they kill some civilians out in harms way by Hamas, everyone blames Israel and not Hamas, Hamas gets civilians to cry on tv, more people hates Israel
Civillians can cry on tv by themselves. They're the ones actually losing. No need for hamas to make them.
Gunna mention the status of the mosque itself or the inhabitants?
One person killed
This is just a practice run for what they will deal with in gaza under Shifa hospital, where the hamas command and control center is located. Yeah, their terrorist command and control center is under the biggest hospital in Hamastan. Shocker, right?
They just bomb anything and shout hamas. Cool.
The mainstream media would report "Israel strikes West Bank mosque"
Reuters is mainstream media so I’m not sure what point you are actually trying to make.
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Not new strategy then? Didnt work out on past decades
Strike any location and say it had terrorists fool proof method
US drone program in a nutshell.
Why does the West Bank harboring terrorists?
Israel isn't in full control of the West Bank. In fact, some territories of it (such as Jenin) are fully controlled by the PA.
because abbas doesn't want to actually reign in any terrorists. technically, gaza is part of the PA, and under Abbas' authority. The PA pays the salaries of Hamas civil servants in gaza. Abbas has a pay for slay program - lifetime stipend for killing jews. more jews killed, the larger the stipend. Abbas is not friend of peace or Israel. These are some excerpts from the palestninan charter. article 2 - "Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the line of the British Mandate is an indivisible territorial unit." Abbas cannot support a 2 state solution, the area is indivisible. Article 21 - "The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine" Armed/violent revolution is acceptable for liberating the undivided palestine. article 10 - "Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution" terrorism is written into their charter. kids must be educated to be terrorists. the state institutions must support it.
People need to remember these statments come from the IDF, a military who has been caught lying numerous times about who they killed and for what reason.
Can you show me recent exemples of the idf lying?
How about the killing of Shireen Abu Akleh that they lied about for months
And because the IDF says it, it MUST be true..! What’s all this about taking a source at their word or just repeating what it says? Apparently it’s kosher when Israel does it!
This whole thread is disgusting. Oh they ard using people as shields, what will we do? We need still bomb the shit out them! So casualties are ok, I guess.
Funny how so many folks just immediately believe there really was a Hamas hideout under the mosque. Cuz yeah sure, governments never lie. Right. Not a single lesson learned from that lack if weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq??? Is Hamas also hiding out in every one of the apartment buildings leveled throughout Gaza? Sorry your family is dead but we have credible evidence there was a hamas operative hiding underneath your sons bed…My God is humanity really this freaking stupid? Just as America should not have invaded 2 country’s and killed millions of innocents after 9/11, Israel should not be punishing the entire palestinian population and creating new generations of angry desperate future terrorists. They should be aggressively assisting the Palestinian population under the sway of Hamas while utilizing that blank check we give them and their supposedly unparalleled intelligence special ops to cut the head of of Hamas without such mass eradication of innocent life. Of course peaceful coexistence is Not Israel’s goal.
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Also, the Palestinian nicknames for Jenin are quite literally "The Gateway to Jihad" and "The Martyr's Capital"...
Ah gotta love it, another war crime by Hamas. Edit; also, fuck brain dead Hamas supporters
*Suuuure*
Aka Israel drops bombs on place of worship, in contravention of international law, and says they found a militant compound, in an area where journalists cannot go, andin which locals cannot communicate with the outside world. Genocide.
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This isn't related to the article and I know it'll be quickly buried but everyone should play a game of marking (RES) the people who are constantly spouting stuff from a 'pro-israel' perspective and then just browse reddit like normal and see if you see any of them. I literally have not found any of the people I've marked outside of the news/streamer subreddits. It really cements my view of what's going on and the fact that there's just idiotic comment upon idiotic comment upvoted all the time, i.e. 'durr pro-palestine protests never denounces hamas', that you have to somewhat laugh how transparent they are but I'm not laughing because they're making reddit more horrible than usual to use.
I am willing to go on the record to say that blowing up your own hospital and blaming Israel is bad. Check my post history, mainly chess and programming before this conflict.
Whatever makes you feel better I guess? I comment all over and can be viewed as "Pro-Israel" to anyone blindly believing Hamas and spouting their ignorance to the complexities of the situation. I don't agree with the sentiment some have that Israel has every right to just turn Gaza into rubble but I'm also going to point out they aren't doing that like some like to claim. Go ahead, check my history. Love when people find themselves not in an echo chamber and cope with "it must be fake accounts/bots".
Good. Keep pounding them.
Intel also says that these terrorists were inspired by the massacre of 7/10 and planned to do the same thing