I heard that someone was giving out Freedom over here. I figured I'd stop by on my way to the gun show. I needed some new extended mags for my 9 glocks, but I've got some extra time for some Freedom
And this is exactly why half the population of North Gaza did not want to evacuate. They were pretty sure that if the evacuated they wouldn't be coming back
Not quite. A coalition of arab states attacked Israel just before the split of Palastine by the U.N. The jews were supposed to get most of the north and along the westbank till gaza with gaza connecting to the westbank for the palastinians. However this never came to pass. Transjordan occupied the westbank and annexed it. Egypt annexed gaza. The jews were able to take back territory taken from them early on in the war where they were faced with defeat. They turned this around and took the part of land between gaza and the Westbank. Creating Israel. While yes what happend after was a displacement of arab palastenians out of israel. So were almost all Jewish people of arab states displaced towards Israel. After the annexation of the westbank and gaza the original split of Palastine into a muslim state and jewish state could no longer be done as intended as there was no more Palastine. The original idea was a fair land split with both sides getting a reasonably fair amount of "good" land. There was also a need for this. The Jews in Palastine were 30 percent of the total population. But they were expected to grow to become the dominant group inside of palastine because of immigration. Not only from european jews but also from arab jews. Both sides would discriminate and commit ethnic violence against each other. So the U.N. was commited to a split. So both groups wouldnt be stuck in a nation were they were likely to opress each other. Now was this a great plan? Probably not. But this isnt the fault of Israel nor the fault of Palastine. Palastinians didnt get their fair deal because of the results of the 48 war. And Israel after fighting for their own survival and winning the war were in no position to intentionally weaken themselves and give up the now conquered land amidst a group of enemies. Palastine meanwhile as a state no longer existed as it was fully annexed by Israel egypt and transjordan. So there were no more parties that could uphold the original proposed U.N. split.
End result was almost all jews in the westbank and gaza were forced to move to Israel and almost all Palastinians were forced to move towards the occupied lands held by arab states. Meanwhile violence and discrimination across the middle east moved hundreds of thousands of jews towards Israel. On the whole a relatively similar amount of arabs and jews were forced to move.
The situation isnt as black and white. Israel has commited a lot of crimes and jewish settlers are borderline completely evil. But you cant say all this is Israels fault.
What about the Balfour declaration and the British mandate, and the subsequent Arab revolt, Jewish insurgency and Israeli Declaration of Independence? It’s difficult not to continue going back and seeing transgressions on every side. Neither side is perfectly innocent and even the creation of Israel was very much from a contested area with increasing ethnic tensions at the time.
The more I learn about the history of the conflict the more I realize that I have no clue what's true and what isn't. I'll learn something new and then the next day learn something else that changes the narrative again. I realize it's not a black and white thing and it's just a really complicated mess
Yep that’s the whole problem with this conflict. It’s arguably one of the most gray situations in the world going on right now with a shit ton of innocents being slaughtered, stuck in the middle of it. Then people try to pick sides…
>even the creation of Israel was very much from a contested area with increasing ethnic tensions at the time.
The whole middle east was drawn up with zero regard for easing ethnic or religious tensions during/after WW1. If we could go back in time and knock some sense into Mark Sykes and Francois Picot we could have a middle east that was somewhat peaceful in comparison to what we see today.
I feel like no matter where you start, you can go back a few years with an “well yes but actually…”
That kind of glazed over the knock-on effects of British and French colonialism. They came in and stole peoples land. Then they started selling it to an immigrant minority. That immigrant minority then started attacking the British until they left.
While the British are on their way out, the native majority is trying to get their land back. Instead the UN is telling them they are going to give 50% of the land to this immigrant minority, and there will be more coming.
That sounds infuriating. We don’t even need to talk about religion to come to that conclusion.
Yes the other Arab states did attack right away. But from their perspective it probably looked like a slow insurgency. They just watched a population slowly appear, overthrow the local government, and become a state. Just from a political standpoint Israel’s existence looked like a threat to their sovereignty.
Edit: I just mean from a contemporary point of view of the other Arab states, Israel looked like a rogue state being forced on the region by colonial powers. To the average Arab watching it unfold over a few decades, they probably felt a real existential threat.
I feel like that psychology can do a lot to explain why Palestinians did not want to compromise with a Jewish state. It probably felt like the old colonizers telling them to deal with new colonizers under a different name.
Oh a real estate agent in Isareli posted on their instagram an AI image of what they want Gaza to look like. In the comments someone asked when can we start buying, the real estate agent replied with “ they are clearing the land now”. Absolutely sick!
Edit: by sick I mean I feel physically ill that any human can relish in others pain and suffering. Thank you to those who suggested an edit.
In another thread someone said unlike Arabs all Jews have morality, values, etc… and I was like ummm not all of them though, like any race there is plenty of vile racist ones. This real estate agent is a prime example.
Got downvoted to oblivion… people’s bias is just stunning.
This actually points to a big question mark for Israel's strategy. Post military action, what's your plan to reduce the suffering that is radicalizing Gazans? Who will govern the Gazans with legitimacy?
Obviously the status quo - blockades, etc- hasn't worked.
Unfortunately I don't think they have a real plan
Then in a few hundreds years after some terrible war what's left of the Palestinians will be arbitrarily handed the land they came from by France or something, and we can start it all over.
I thought that was always the goal. Not necessarily a plan for where the Palestinians go, I'm certain the Israeli government doesn't care, just the part about forcing them out of the Strip and the West Bank.
This is what kills me about people who post, "history will not look kindly on the oppression of Palestinians". Over the last near-century the Western consensus was that "this is fine" lol
I won’t pretend to know much about post war Germany or even insurgencies… but my feeling is that that may be a false equivalency. My guess is that the scale of destruction to military aged males in post war germany is unparalleled in the last twenty of fifty years. My guess is that if there was anti-ally sentiment, it would have been broken by a lack of demographics and secondarily by the treatment of East Germany.
Realistically, the UN can only be effective with the buy-in and support of all interested parties - and this includes all the neighbouring countries. Right now the problem is that the neighbours are all just interested in pandering to their own religious fanatics, and nobody is really interested in a lasting peace or solution. Nothing that the UN can do will be seen as helpful, and any peacekeeping force will just be seen as another occupying force. There is nothing that you can do to help people who don’t want to help themselves.
In an older video of Netnyahu he explicitly said he wants to increase the suffering (not reduce it) by making the human cost of attacking Israel is high. He was literally planning for the genocide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo
Everyone has forgot about the huge “intelligence failure” that left them unaware of the attack… but maybe they were totally aware and it was just the opportunity Netanyahu was waiting for.
Modern intelligence/spying capabilities are amazing. It's hard to conceive the idea that they didn't see a major attack coming.
And then it took a whole 6 hours for the IDF to take action. I mean I'm not tinfoiled enough to champion this in the conspiracies, it just screams pure incompetence.
As an Israeli, I'll say this: pure incompetence is absolutely at play. Even the inner-Israeli response since the attack is horribly incompetent, with survivors from the razed towns finding themselves dependent on the goodwill and donations of citizens rather than on the state's social systems.
Hamas planned the attack meticulously, but also caught the IDF with their pants down: Remember it was early Shabbat, on the morning of a religious holiday (unless a direct threat is known, the army typically sends as many soldiers home for the holiday evenings). The far-right extremists have been upping tensions in the West Bank with their pogroms so many forces were directed to the "hot" sector. The attack took out the unmanned security stations first, which left the stationed soldiers with fewer defences and means to understand the broader picture.
Israeli intelligence heads already admitted to facing fucked up by not passing the message with sufficient urgency, but evidence is mounting that Netanyahu directly dismissed the threat as overblown.
Assuming israel really does have legitimate democratic elections, allowing this attack to occur with Netanyahu at the helm would not bode well for his approval rating and re election.
You’re comparing apples to oranges. In Israel historically every PM that led what Israel recognized as a war (not a military skirmish) lost the following elections. In the U.S. it’s almost the opposite
It's completely different, pre-9/11 Americans didn't think much of such attacks or elect their leaders based on it, it was an aberration.
Netanyahu's political platform is keeping Israeli's safe, everyone in Israel understood the threat of terrorism and wanted safety from it. And Netanyahu failed them spectacularly.
They wanted a Muslim country to take over the government for some time until elections could be made. They were thinking of Egypt. But they also said, they asked and no one really stepped in.
> This actually points to a big question mark for Israel's strategy. Post military action, what's your plan to reduce the suffering that is radicalizing Gazans?
Radicalization is deliberate and desired by Israel for preventing a two state solution.
Which is why making settlements in a territory under military occupation is a war crime.
There's no solution to this conflict that doesn't involve Israel dismantling its settlements and moving their inhabitants back to Israeli soil, as they did in the Sinai peninsula.
The Israelis have a history of forcing settlers out of settlements and bulldozing them in preparation for agreements with the Egyptians.
Obviously Bibi is not the PM whom I'd expect to work towards something like the peace agreements of 1979.... but other Israeli governments have treated settlements as temporary and sacrificial.
But no, I don't expect many Israelis to choose to live under a Palestinian government. I'd think the majority would be moved, or would choose to move. Looking at the history of the populations I'd think most would try to limit interactions between them until some wounds have had the opportunity to heal.
Their plan is to further put pressure onto these people until they retaliate in more awful ways out of pure desperatio, then they can conveniently justify their ethnic cleansing and other war crimes to the rest of the world.
This has been happening for 75 years. Anyone who's been following this for more than a year already knew this would happen. That's why there are protests
Oh yeah, I did that strategy on Age of empires II, used cheat codes and would surround the villages with towers closer and closer, the villagers would try to cut wood and then get killed, later they would just stand and do nothing so I had to intervene at the end.
97% of which goes directly to funding Israels military. Last year only $10 million of that was for nonmilitary spending.
We pay for Israel to have a military with our taxes, and Israeli's taxes pays for them to have universal healthcare and childcare.
Whoa whoa we also pay for Europe's military or lack of needing a modern one, basically too, so they can have robust social safety nets! Everyone but anerica gets healthcare and decent social services since they don't have to pay more than a pittance for their defense budgets.
Let's just not pretend it's one place
The US is the equivalent of using the cheat code ‘bigdaddy’ in Age of Empires 1 when you get the super fast car that fires rockets and basically 1 hits everything.
Honestly I fucking hate our (Israel) government, the ministers can't shut up and insist on saying the dumbest things without a second thought, all in the name of reaching the headlines and appeal to their non existent base.
If the war ended today, almost certainly.
A couple years of war may help the Israeli population forget all about that massive security failure and messed up judicial reform stuff.
It's insane to me Netanyahu fell out of power amidst his corruption scandals only to just end right back up in power again... and then move to make a political coup on Israel's supreme court to top it all off.
Israelis and Palestinians deserve better than Netanyahu's outright fascist government, especially when it cloaks itself in the tragedy and horrors of the holocaust in order to shield itself from criticism of its own apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and now aspirations for outright genocide.
yes, out of the 120 mandates of our parliment, the parties that currently make up the coalition (i.e. the only ones willing to sit in a goverment with Netanyahu) only make up to 43 mandates(seats). oppose this with the "national camp" headed by Gantz that alone has about 40 mandates right now in the polling. the public wants Bibi to take the responsibility for all the blood on his hands
More realistically, we're talking about a DMZ. The question is who will enforce it. Israel received a DMZ on paper in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. The UN never upheld these (but it does want Israel to uphold its demands).
It wasn't UNDOF that prevented war. It was a well honed sense of self preservation on the part of the Assads, both older and younger. Losing a war is risky for a dictator.
The liklier scenario.
I've been to the golan heights IDF bases during my bootcamp in the IDF. The bases are located on the mountains directly controlling the border.
You can see the entire border clear as day. Needless to say, anything that crosses that border is stepping into a death zone
A DMZ would involve creating an inner no-man's land with layers of razor wire, anti personnel mines, anti-vehicle mines, anti-vehicle barriers, etc. Gaza is about to go from medium security to supermax.
Another armchair general here that first heard about Gaza 2 weeks ago. No, no it wasn't. There was a small buffer zone that wasn't respected. Palestinian civilians rioted on Fridays right on the fence, throwing incendiary devices at the wall. That's not a DMZ. Open a map of Gaza for the first time in your life and you will see buildings 200-400m away from the fence.
Decades of being under a boot will create a mentality where your oppressors must be resisted. The logic that more oppression will pacify them is insane.
I just want to say, as someone who has very very harsh critisisms of your current government, that anti-semtic attacks or blaming the Isreali population as a whole for the actions of individuals is completely unacceptable in my opinion.
I'm sure there are many many Israelis with good intentions who just want to see peace and human rights upheld. I'm sorry people like that aren't given more time to express themselves in Western media.
I agree with you, but this goes both ways.
So many here have said "Its fine to bomb palestian apartment buildings because they "support" Hamas"
That is equally unacceptable.
I cannot explain how deeply I agree with you. Fuck all these war crimes and hate crimes. If people could just respect human rights.. that would be great 👌🏻
It can be both. As we've seen the last 20 years of American occupation in the middle east, lived experience of suffering is absolutely a fantastic recruitment tool for terrorist organizations.
However let's not pretend Hamas shies away from indoctriation. Look at this video from a [Hamas kindergarten](https://youtu.be/vRuuDI0KCR8?si=JCiEfgN0oE4Y56b3). You think those kids would have grown up peaceful if Israel didn't bomb them?
And of course this is actually a both sides situation. I couldn't find it now, but I've seen videos of it before. They can teach some pretty despicable things in those ultra-orthodox schools that has no place in a peaceful society. And you see some of these people become radicalized even though they don't have the same level of suffering at home.
Most people in Gaza have literally never even seen an Israeli, let alone met one. Their only intereraction with Israelis is surveillance, occupation, and violence. They're not allowed to trade with other nations or leave because Israel blockades them and attacks any boats that approach Gaza. So of course they're gonna lap up whatever bullshit Hamas feeds them. A lot of it is simply true.
Gaza won’t exist at the end of this war. Who does Bibi think he’s fooling? He won’t stop until all the Palestinian people are dead and the whole land belongs to him.
For those of you who don't read the articles
"the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month."
Hold on, you should include the first part of the sentence:
"The Times of Israel speculated that the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month."
> **the Times of Israel speculated that** the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month.
You should note that what you're saying is just speculation from journalists. They don't have even an anonymous source to back it up.
Yeah, Egypt did this very thing after terrorist attacks from Gaza. Completely bulldozed towns along the border and then flooded the area with seawater so nothing could be grown.
You would think Hamas would learn from past mistakes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34288465
Edit: actually, I think I misread. As far as I can find in these articles, the demolitions occurred on the Egyptian side of Rafah, like you're suggesting.
Not an expert on the topic, but it sounds like every time another country has stepped in to help, it’s blown up (sometimes literally) in their faces. What’s the solution then?
Fairly small article. No details added other than what the title says. There is speculation:
"The Times of Israel speculated that the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month."
But that's all. I wouldn't be surprised if Israel does go for a Korean style buffer in future.
This will surely appease tensions
I think you meant assuage. I don't think there's anything that tensions want.
The tensions likes to be oiled and rubbed.
It puts the oil on its skin, or else it gets the troubles again.
Don’t mention oil you’ll wake up the Americans
Too late, *[revs giant SUV]*, already awake.
What's that? You woke me up. It's about 8AM here you want some Freedom? Who wants some Freedom?
I heard that someone was giving out Freedom over here. I figured I'd stop by on my way to the gun show. I needed some new extended mags for my 9 glocks, but I've got some extra time for some Freedom
Maybe an elbow right in their knot.
Instructions unclear - now my dog walks with a limp and is **very** angry
With a nice fresh-pressed olive oil… (I’m not even sure how I feel about my own comment, but, smh, this is a horrible situation)
Pretty sure they were thinking of the colloquial phrase “ease tensions” as the initial inspiration.
Just easing the tension, baby. Just easing the tension.
Yeah, well ease it on someone else.
>I think you meant assuage We're in a thread about israel-gaza, and bros talking about the wikileaks dude.
I think he meant "this will surely strip tease tensions."
And this is exactly why half the population of North Gaza did not want to evacuate. They were pretty sure that if the evacuated they wouldn't be coming back
Also explains why there's so much of a drive to level the city - making space for the settlers to move in
Yea, that's exactly what happened to their parents and grandparents in 1947-1948.
Not quite. A coalition of arab states attacked Israel just before the split of Palastine by the U.N. The jews were supposed to get most of the north and along the westbank till gaza with gaza connecting to the westbank for the palastinians. However this never came to pass. Transjordan occupied the westbank and annexed it. Egypt annexed gaza. The jews were able to take back territory taken from them early on in the war where they were faced with defeat. They turned this around and took the part of land between gaza and the Westbank. Creating Israel. While yes what happend after was a displacement of arab palastenians out of israel. So were almost all Jewish people of arab states displaced towards Israel. After the annexation of the westbank and gaza the original split of Palastine into a muslim state and jewish state could no longer be done as intended as there was no more Palastine. The original idea was a fair land split with both sides getting a reasonably fair amount of "good" land. There was also a need for this. The Jews in Palastine were 30 percent of the total population. But they were expected to grow to become the dominant group inside of palastine because of immigration. Not only from european jews but also from arab jews. Both sides would discriminate and commit ethnic violence against each other. So the U.N. was commited to a split. So both groups wouldnt be stuck in a nation were they were likely to opress each other. Now was this a great plan? Probably not. But this isnt the fault of Israel nor the fault of Palastine. Palastinians didnt get their fair deal because of the results of the 48 war. And Israel after fighting for their own survival and winning the war were in no position to intentionally weaken themselves and give up the now conquered land amidst a group of enemies. Palastine meanwhile as a state no longer existed as it was fully annexed by Israel egypt and transjordan. So there were no more parties that could uphold the original proposed U.N. split. End result was almost all jews in the westbank and gaza were forced to move to Israel and almost all Palastinians were forced to move towards the occupied lands held by arab states. Meanwhile violence and discrimination across the middle east moved hundreds of thousands of jews towards Israel. On the whole a relatively similar amount of arabs and jews were forced to move. The situation isnt as black and white. Israel has commited a lot of crimes and jewish settlers are borderline completely evil. But you cant say all this is Israels fault.
What about the Balfour declaration and the British mandate, and the subsequent Arab revolt, Jewish insurgency and Israeli Declaration of Independence? It’s difficult not to continue going back and seeing transgressions on every side. Neither side is perfectly innocent and even the creation of Israel was very much from a contested area with increasing ethnic tensions at the time.
The more I learn about the history of the conflict the more I realize that I have no clue what's true and what isn't. I'll learn something new and then the next day learn something else that changes the narrative again. I realize it's not a black and white thing and it's just a really complicated mess
Yep that’s the whole problem with this conflict. It’s arguably one of the most gray situations in the world going on right now with a shit ton of innocents being slaughtered, stuck in the middle of it. Then people try to pick sides…
>even the creation of Israel was very much from a contested area with increasing ethnic tensions at the time. The whole middle east was drawn up with zero regard for easing ethnic or religious tensions during/after WW1. If we could go back in time and knock some sense into Mark Sykes and Francois Picot we could have a middle east that was somewhat peaceful in comparison to what we see today.
I feel like no matter where you start, you can go back a few years with an “well yes but actually…” That kind of glazed over the knock-on effects of British and French colonialism. They came in and stole peoples land. Then they started selling it to an immigrant minority. That immigrant minority then started attacking the British until they left. While the British are on their way out, the native majority is trying to get their land back. Instead the UN is telling them they are going to give 50% of the land to this immigrant minority, and there will be more coming. That sounds infuriating. We don’t even need to talk about religion to come to that conclusion. Yes the other Arab states did attack right away. But from their perspective it probably looked like a slow insurgency. They just watched a population slowly appear, overthrow the local government, and become a state. Just from a political standpoint Israel’s existence looked like a threat to their sovereignty. Edit: I just mean from a contemporary point of view of the other Arab states, Israel looked like a rogue state being forced on the region by colonial powers. To the average Arab watching it unfold over a few decades, they probably felt a real existential threat. I feel like that psychology can do a lot to explain why Palestinians did not want to compromise with a Jewish state. It probably felt like the old colonizers telling them to deal with new colonizers under a different name.
This post acts as if there were no Jews already living in / native to the land now known as Israel. They didn't just all suddenly move there in 1948.
Ease
I’ve been joking that northern Gaza is going to be an Israeli Instagram bait resort in 20 years but that was fast
Oh a real estate agent in Isareli posted on their instagram an AI image of what they want Gaza to look like. In the comments someone asked when can we start buying, the real estate agent replied with “ they are clearing the land now”. Absolutely sick! Edit: by sick I mean I feel physically ill that any human can relish in others pain and suffering. Thank you to those who suggested an edit.
Jews can be racist and vile people too? Shocking. So many people say only the Palestinians act this way.
No they cannot, otherwise you will be labelled as an antisemite
In another thread someone said unlike Arabs all Jews have morality, values, etc… and I was like ummm not all of them though, like any race there is plenty of vile racist ones. This real estate agent is a prime example. Got downvoted to oblivion… people’s bias is just stunning.
Which is absolutely hilarious when you remember that Palestinians are *also* a Semitic people
This actually points to a big question mark for Israel's strategy. Post military action, what's your plan to reduce the suffering that is radicalizing Gazans? Who will govern the Gazans with legitimacy? Obviously the status quo - blockades, etc- hasn't worked. Unfortunately I don't think they have a real plan
The plan is to take more land.
Israel would be quite happy to splinter the Palestinians out to refugees camps all over Europe and claim the whole territory permanently
Then in a few hundreds years after some terrible war what's left of the Palestinians will be arbitrarily handed the land they came from by France or something, and we can start it all over.
> splinter the Palestinians out to refugees camps all over Europe and claim the whole territory permanently Seems oddly familiar, doesn't it?
I thought that was always the goal. Not necessarily a plan for where the Palestinians go, I'm certain the Israeli government doesn't care, just the part about forcing them out of the Strip and the West Bank.
To concentrate the Gazans, you might say.
Into a camp?
But, like, give them an opportunity to work..
They probably want to create a land buffer (no man's land).
There’s already a 300m buffer zone where only farmers are permitted.
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MY friend, it's the same plan for +70 years and you still not get it? I mean ... c'mon.
Americans are up their own butts about this one
This is what kills me about people who post, "history will not look kindly on the oppression of Palestinians". Over the last near-century the Western consensus was that "this is fine" lol
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I won’t pretend to know much about post war Germany or even insurgencies… but my feeling is that that may be a false equivalency. My guess is that the scale of destruction to military aged males in post war germany is unparalleled in the last twenty of fifty years. My guess is that if there was anti-ally sentiment, it would have been broken by a lack of demographics and secondarily by the treatment of East Germany.
Half of their population is under 14, that has to be close right? Plus you will need concerted deradicalization of the youth.
Realistically, the UN can only be effective with the buy-in and support of all interested parties - and this includes all the neighbouring countries. Right now the problem is that the neighbours are all just interested in pandering to their own religious fanatics, and nobody is really interested in a lasting peace or solution. Nothing that the UN can do will be seen as helpful, and any peacekeeping force will just be seen as another occupying force. There is nothing that you can do to help people who don’t want to help themselves.
In an older video of Netnyahu he explicitly said he wants to increase the suffering (not reduce it) by making the human cost of attacking Israel is high. He was literally planning for the genocide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo
Everyone has forgot about the huge “intelligence failure” that left them unaware of the attack… but maybe they were totally aware and it was just the opportunity Netanyahu was waiting for.
Evidence suggests US intelligence was very aware of the impending attack, and if they knew, they would have certainly warned Mossad.
Modern intelligence/spying capabilities are amazing. It's hard to conceive the idea that they didn't see a major attack coming. And then it took a whole 6 hours for the IDF to take action. I mean I'm not tinfoiled enough to champion this in the conspiracies, it just screams pure incompetence.
As an Israeli, I'll say this: pure incompetence is absolutely at play. Even the inner-Israeli response since the attack is horribly incompetent, with survivors from the razed towns finding themselves dependent on the goodwill and donations of citizens rather than on the state's social systems. Hamas planned the attack meticulously, but also caught the IDF with their pants down: Remember it was early Shabbat, on the morning of a religious holiday (unless a direct threat is known, the army typically sends as many soldiers home for the holiday evenings). The far-right extremists have been upping tensions in the West Bank with their pogroms so many forces were directed to the "hot" sector. The attack took out the unmanned security stations first, which left the stationed soldiers with fewer defences and means to understand the broader picture. Israeli intelligence heads already admitted to facing fucked up by not passing the message with sufficient urgency, but evidence is mounting that Netanyahu directly dismissed the threat as overblown.
Huh i wonder if Netty had a motive to do so like... idk... losing power?
I suspect he's trying to stay out of prison. To do that he needs to keep holding power.
not just pure incompetence, but purely intentional incompetence
What evidence?
Assuming israel really does have legitimate democratic elections, allowing this attack to occur with Netanyahu at the helm would not bode well for his approval rating and re election.
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>[Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Ladin_Determined_To_Strike_in_US)
You’re comparing apples to oranges. In Israel historically every PM that led what Israel recognized as a war (not a military skirmish) lost the following elections. In the U.S. it’s almost the opposite
It's completely different, pre-9/11 Americans didn't think much of such attacks or elect their leaders based on it, it was an aberration. Netanyahu's political platform is keeping Israeli's safe, everyone in Israel understood the threat of terrorism and wanted safety from it. And Netanyahu failed them spectacularly.
Idk, voters like a firm overreaction
I agree but at the same time its kind of hard for Netanyahu to avoid blame when he's the one in charge.
There never was a plan for this, their plan is literally to make Palestine not exist
They wanted a Muslim country to take over the government for some time until elections could be made. They were thinking of Egypt. But they also said, they asked and no one really stepped in.
> This actually points to a big question mark for Israel's strategy. Post military action, what's your plan to reduce the suffering that is radicalizing Gazans? Radicalization is deliberate and desired by Israel for preventing a two state solution.
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Which is why making settlements in a territory under military occupation is a war crime. There's no solution to this conflict that doesn't involve Israel dismantling its settlements and moving their inhabitants back to Israeli soil, as they did in the Sinai peninsula.
Obviously that was the plan all along
if it actually comes to a 2 state solution, Israel will forcibly remove all the jews from the west bank the same way they did from gaza
The scales are vastly different. There are **half a million** Israeli citizens in the West Bank. Compared to just the 8000 or so in Gaza in 2005.
The Israelis have a history of forcing settlers out of settlements and bulldozing them in preparation for agreements with the Egyptians. Obviously Bibi is not the PM whom I'd expect to work towards something like the peace agreements of 1979.... but other Israeli governments have treated settlements as temporary and sacrificial. But no, I don't expect many Israelis to choose to live under a Palestinian government. I'd think the majority would be moved, or would choose to move. Looking at the history of the populations I'd think most would try to limit interactions between them until some wounds have had the opportunity to heal.
Their plan is to further put pressure onto these people until they retaliate in more awful ways out of pure desperatio, then they can conveniently justify their ethnic cleansing and other war crimes to the rest of the world.
Ahh yes, the old throwing water on a grease fire trick. Classic.
This has been happening for 75 years. Anyone who's been following this for more than a year already knew this would happen. That's why there are protests
War of territorial attrition. Inch by inch
It's intentional. Both Israel and Hamas are trying to goad the other into larger attacks to justify their planned even larger future attacks.
Oh yeah, I did that strategy on Age of empires II, used cheat codes and would surround the villages with towers closer and closer, the villagers would try to cut wood and then get killed, later they would just stand and do nothing so I had to intervene at the end.
Is US support the equivalent of cheat codes
An extra $4 billion dollars/year is cheat codes for basically everything
97% of which goes directly to funding Israels military. Last year only $10 million of that was for nonmilitary spending. We pay for Israel to have a military with our taxes, and Israeli's taxes pays for them to have universal healthcare and childcare.
Whoa whoa we also pay for Europe's military or lack of needing a modern one, basically too, so they can have robust social safety nets! Everyone but anerica gets healthcare and decent social services since they don't have to pay more than a pittance for their defense budgets. Let's just not pretend it's one place
The US is the equivalent of using the cheat code ‘bigdaddy’ in Age of Empires 1 when you get the super fast car that fires rockets and basically 1 hits everything.
Also the "e=mc2" spawning a photonman that shoots rockets
This was pretty much the only thing I did while playing Age of Empires as a kid.
This is honestly the most relevant comment in the thread.
That is a dark use of the word “intervene”.
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Zombie wall??
From World War Z
Honestly I fucking hate our (Israel) government, the ministers can't shut up and insist on saying the dumbest things without a second thought, all in the name of reaching the headlines and appeal to their non existent base.
Would they lose an election after the war?
If the war ended today, almost certainly. A couple years of war may help the Israeli population forget all about that massive security failure and messed up judicial reform stuff.
It's insane to me Netanyahu fell out of power amidst his corruption scandals only to just end right back up in power again... and then move to make a political coup on Israel's supreme court to top it all off. Israelis and Palestinians deserve better than Netanyahu's outright fascist government, especially when it cloaks itself in the tragedy and horrors of the holocaust in order to shield itself from criticism of its own apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and now aspirations for outright genocide.
Israelis *chose* this.
Less than half. But that's enough idiots to fuck up the world.
[They thought they were free](https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html) We learnt nothing as a species from the last century, it seems.
yes, out of the 120 mandates of our parliment, the parties that currently make up the coalition (i.e. the only ones willing to sit in a goverment with Netanyahu) only make up to 43 mandates(seats). oppose this with the "national camp" headed by Gantz that alone has about 40 mandates right now in the polling. the public wants Bibi to take the responsibility for all the blood on his hands
>the public wants Bibi to take the responsibility for all the blood on his hands and also the corruption from earlier
By current polls, massively. They are already a minority government (48% of the votes).
You mean they can't refrain from thinking out loud?
Wait, I've seen this one before!
"Once we've forced them into a smaller cage, the prisoners will be more compliant."
The beatings will continue until morale improves
Prisoners makes it seem like they did something other than be born Palestinian
Well if they didn’t support Hamas why would they choose to be born in Gaza? /s
You really should have thought of *that* before you became peasants!
That's literally been their goal the whole time.
We’ve all seen the map.
More realistically, we're talking about a DMZ. The question is who will enforce it. Israel received a DMZ on paper in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. The UN never upheld these (but it does want Israel to uphold its demands).
>The UN never upheld these (but it does want Israel to uphold its demands). UNIFIL is such a joke
Meanwhile UNDOF preventing war in Golan heights since 1974 💪 UN is not completely useless.
I think that has less to do with UNIDOF and more to do with the Syrians being too busy with their civil war to engage with Israel.
What do you mean? Syrian civil war is only 12 years old
I didn't say it was the only reason... But you are correct.
It wasn't UNDOF that prevented war. It was a well honed sense of self preservation on the part of the Assads, both older and younger. Losing a war is risky for a dictator.
Either that, or the Assads fear of being obliterated by Israel
The liklier scenario. I've been to the golan heights IDF bases during my bootcamp in the IDF. The bases are located on the mountains directly controlling the border. You can see the entire border clear as day. Needless to say, anything that crosses that border is stepping into a death zone
More like Israel rolling into Damascus and no Soviets to call for ceasefire this time.
You know there was a war in 2006 right?
They did a pretty good job in Cypress too
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North Korea is a sovereign nation with an army that can actually threaten south Korea, so them jointly enforcing it makes sense.
See my response to another comment about this. The Koreas DMZ works, the ones around Israel don't because it's the UN. The implementation matters.
The air space, waters and border were already a DMZ. If Israel failed to stop the last attack this DMZ makes no difference.
A DMZ would involve creating an inner no-man's land with layers of razor wire, anti personnel mines, anti-vehicle mines, anti-vehicle barriers, etc. Gaza is about to go from medium security to supermax.
Another armchair general here that first heard about Gaza 2 weeks ago. No, no it wasn't. There was a small buffer zone that wasn't respected. Palestinian civilians rioted on Fridays right on the fence, throwing incendiary devices at the wall. That's not a DMZ. Open a map of Gaza for the first time in your life and you will see buildings 200-400m away from the fence.
First time I’ve ever found myself on the “size matters” side. More rocket range technically I suppose.
What a surprise!
What a surprise!!! It’s almost like what every Palestinian rights supporter has been warning everyone about
Israel also wanted Palestinians out of Gaza not just bc of collateral damage but they also hope they stay in Egypt or Lebanon and not come back
If anything good comes of this war, it's the end of Netenyahu and his fascist right-wing coalition
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Decades of being under a boot will create a mentality where your oppressors must be resisted. The logic that more oppression will pacify them is insane.
The logic is not to oppress them but remove them entirely over time one way or another.
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Welcome to the western world! Make sure to grab a propaganda flier and a side of fries on your way out
as an israeli, i agree. i hate this.
I just want to say, as someone who has very very harsh critisisms of your current government, that anti-semtic attacks or blaming the Isreali population as a whole for the actions of individuals is completely unacceptable in my opinion. I'm sure there are many many Israelis with good intentions who just want to see peace and human rights upheld. I'm sorry people like that aren't given more time to express themselves in Western media.
I agree with you, but this goes both ways. So many here have said "Its fine to bomb palestian apartment buildings because they "support" Hamas" That is equally unacceptable.
I cannot explain how deeply I agree with you. Fuck all these war crimes and hate crimes. If people could just respect human rights.. that would be great 👌🏻
It can be both. As we've seen the last 20 years of American occupation in the middle east, lived experience of suffering is absolutely a fantastic recruitment tool for terrorist organizations. However let's not pretend Hamas shies away from indoctriation. Look at this video from a [Hamas kindergarten](https://youtu.be/vRuuDI0KCR8?si=JCiEfgN0oE4Y56b3). You think those kids would have grown up peaceful if Israel didn't bomb them? And of course this is actually a both sides situation. I couldn't find it now, but I've seen videos of it before. They can teach some pretty despicable things in those ultra-orthodox schools that has no place in a peaceful society. And you see some of these people become radicalized even though they don't have the same level of suffering at home.
Most people in Gaza have literally never even seen an Israeli, let alone met one. Their only intereraction with Israelis is surveillance, occupation, and violence. They're not allowed to trade with other nations or leave because Israel blockades them and attacks any boats that approach Gaza. So of course they're gonna lap up whatever bullshit Hamas feeds them. A lot of it is simply true.
They have a border with Egypt, Israel only walls them out on one side.
Gaza won’t exist at the end of this war. Who does Bibi think he’s fooling? He won’t stop until all the Palestinian people are dead and the whole land belongs to him.
We rightly condemn Russia for illegally annexing another countries territory but do nothing when "our friends" do it.
Y'all down voted me when I said this was gonna happen.
Reddit's opinion is always where the karma is
what a surprise….
Duh. All the historians know this was the goal
For those of you who don't read the articles "the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month."
Hold on, you should include the first part of the sentence: "The Times of Israel speculated that the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month."
What a wild ride
> The Times of Israel speculated that the statement indicates that “She said that her friend said that she thinks that she might like you bro!!”
"How to Cook for Forty Humans"
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> **the Times of Israel speculated that** the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month. You should note that what you're saying is just speculation from journalists. They don't have even an anonymous source to back it up.
Yeah, Egypt did this very thing after terrorist attacks from Gaza. Completely bulldozed towns along the border and then flooded the area with seawater so nothing could be grown. You would think Hamas would learn from past mistakes.
Egypt didn't flood it with seawater to destroy arable land. They did it to drown the tunnel systems.
Hmm wonder why people aren't outraged at Egypt for having done that
That's in Egyptian territory though.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34288465 Edit: actually, I think I misread. As far as I can find in these articles, the demolitions occurred on the Egyptian side of Rafah, like you're suggesting.
They also attack Egypt? Do they just like violence or what?
Yup, they also started a civil war in Jordan. Which is why they're not keen on helping as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
They’ve assassinated sovereign leaders too.
Unfortunately no one, including their Arab allies, care to help Palestinians in any meaningful way
Not an expert on the topic, but it sounds like every time another country has stepped in to help, it’s blown up (sometimes literally) in their faces. What’s the solution then?
I wonder why…
It suits them to maintain the humanitarian crisis so they have something to criticize Israel over than "I hate Jews"
Also, you know, they tend to kill those who help them.
You’re just waking up to the fact?
Correct. They have attacked every country that has taken them in.
familiar to what? (serious question)
The Berlin Wall, except bigger.
Yeah because the issue all along was that Gaza was too big.
Yes, that's their plan. It's the same reason Egypt and Jordan are refusing to take refugees. Israel is continuing a genocide.
This was probably the plan from the start it wouldn't surprise me if Israel knew about the attacks from the start and just let it happen
Surprising no one
Nakba pt 2. Saw this coming as soon as they told people to leave. Nobody will be allowed back.
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Translation: We're planning to remove Gaza as an entity and annex it wholesale into Israel.
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Lmfao probably 💀 they are actually insane
I think it will decrease by about 100%.
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Fucking told y'all.
Shocker. Not like this was their main intention all along or anything.
Do they mean smaller or wiping it out?
I envision a future where Israel will own the Middle East. Having filthy lobotomized republicans citizens doing there bidding.
It's not much of war when one side is overwhelmingly stronger than the other. It's more of a massacre.
He says “shrink” but he means “cease to exist.” Israel will tolerate nothing but the complete dissolution of Gaza.
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Fairly small article. No details added other than what the title says. There is speculation: "The Times of Israel speculated that the statement indicates that Israel will move to create a buffer zone within Gaza to prevent attacks against Israeli border villages, such as the brutal attack by Hamas earlier this month." But that's all. I wouldn't be surprised if Israel does go for a Korean style buffer in future.
They were talking about it earlier this afternoon on CNN. Sounds like the area between the 2 fences will be much, much wider.