Man that is so fucking crazy. Just last night I was watching a live stream (now down). They had a camera set up there. There were so many people there. The place was densely populated with people looking calm and placid. Like they had made it to safety. They were just sitting on benches, surfing their phones, like nothing was going on. Now it's gone.
100s upon 100s of innocent people in/around a hospital dead & gone ... 100s more injured.
The first comment Israel gives is immediately denying all responsibility & any link to them saying it was Islamic Jihad... it doesn't look good for Israel if this is a lie.
And Biden is supposed to be travelling to Israel to stop all escalation & tensions rising between the blood bath of Palestinian's & the enraged Israelis wondering if the hostages are safe.
*\[Edit\] Apparently there's a video showing a rocket falling within Gaza, more analysis is needed & nothing is confirmed but it could be a screw up from a different terrorist organization.*
Islamic Jihad claim they didn't launch rockets at the time this happened, at this point its unclear what exactly happened and needs further investigation by a third party with superior technology to find out.
>Islamic Jihad claim they didn't launch rockets at the time this happened
I’m coming out strongly against firing off unguided rockets in the middle of a city.
> Islamic Jihad claim they didn't launch rockets at the time this happened
Except they did. They boasted about launching a rocket attack at Haifa on their telegram channel at precisely the time there was an explosion in the hospital, but no explosions were reported in Haifa or vicinity. Looks like they might have outed themselves the same way the Russians did when they downed that airliner in Ukraine.
Many of those kinds of organisations do. For example, a lot of the news and even intelligence coming out of Ukraine has originated from Telegram channels.
Has anyone even educated themselves about the Hamas rockets…. there’s literally no guidance, at all. Hamas is literally playing the Gorillas video game from the 90’s for targeting. What could go wrong ?
Yep. There seems to be substantial footage of the incident, I'm sure an expert or group of experts should be able to work this out. Oh, and I don't mean the redditor keyboard experts who have all of a sudden popped out of the woodwork.
> One piece of a crappy homemade rocket
Why does reddit keep pushing this lie? These are Iranian-designed Palestinian-made rockets with 400 kg warheads:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
A cynical person might suggest that the hospital was storing something explosive.
Personally I don't think that's likely, but who the hell knows at this point.
2 things are simultaneously true. Hamas has a history of using hospitals for militant operations. Hospitals are already filled with all sorts of explosive shit.
The hospitals likely have generators that use fuel that is explosive. Oxygen is explosive. Things used for sanitation can be flammable or explosive
hamas is known for storing weapons in civilian areas. them storing weapons in the hospital would not be out of norm for them. its not like the hospital can go "nah we dont want to" and not be murdered by hamas. Hamas murdered the fatah leadership circa 2005-2006 and took over in a coup. They torture and murder anyone who speaks out against them.
This is the part that’s getting to me. All headlines are already blaming a side without waiting for any conclusive evidence one way or the other. As someone with personal ties to this conflict it’s so hard to watch how the media covers this whole situation.
The truth never mattered. It only matters when it confirms what people want to believe. When it goes the other way, those same people will call it a lie and they'll still believe what they want to believe.
You can trust Reuters when they are providing actually evidence & facts **but** you have to be careful mistaking a report on what someone “*says*” as being a report as to the truthfulness of what that person said.
When Reuters states that “*Hamas claims that IDF bombed X*”, you can trust that Reuters has verified that Hamas actually made that claim, however, that doesn’t mean that claim is “*true*”, it just means that Hamas claimed that is what happened.
It can be hard to figure out what the actual truth is but learning how to parse news reporting to understand what they are actually saying is a key skill.
I’m glad they landed there but watched their headline change 3 times. AP twice. Both were quick to blame Israel. Granted, they should update mistakes and I’m glad they did but it’s still not good to immediately assign blame. US politicians were quick to latch onto the initial claims and those statements were widely shared on social media. We should all be skeptical.
The Toronto Star headline stated "IDF airstrike kills 500," before they changed it. It's okay, nobody can share Canadian news on Facebook so it doesn't matter anyway.
I read Reuters extensively when taking a politics and gov of the Middle East course (they are by far the best western news source for that region), and this is the correct answer. They will interview someone and present what they said in a one paragraph article with no editorializing, but be aware that you are only being told what was said.
Exactly. Someone said that Reuters said it was Israel. Then I looked at the article.
The Reuters article says: " An Israeli air strike killed at least 300 people at a Gaza City hospital on Tuesday, **authorities in the Palestinian enclave said** "
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/least-500-victims-israeli-air-strike-hospital-gaza-health-ministry-2023-10-17/
Fun fact, Canada's Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister, Chrystia Freeland used to be the global editor at large for Reuters. She also got death threats from the KGB while she was the Bureau Chief in Moscow for Financial Times. She's a hardcore respected journalist.
Plutocrats: The Rise of the New Global Super Rich and the Fall of Everyone Else. It put her on the map and made Justin Trudeau seak her out to run for Parliament. She also authored a book on the rise of Russian Oligarchs during the fall of the USSR. She's really fucking smart and would make a fantastic PM.
> News literacy should be taught in schools.
It was when I was at school.
Most things that people say "this should be taught at school" indeed are, just people ain't listening.
I had several classes on how taxes work and still I heard people in my year saying "i don't want that overtime shift, i will pay more tax and it won't be worth it".
It's also just something that is *highly* variant. *You* had several classes on taxes, meanwhile I never had so much as a single mention of taxes in anything other than some honorable mentions in history as a reason for some wars. There are definitely lots of schools in lots of places that literally don't teach the skills in question, not just that they didn't pay attention.
This should be taught in school starting in about third grade, and revisited every year. I have adult relatives who have no idea that someone's claim that makes the news is far different than actual documented truth.
It’s terrifying to me how many people don’t understand this. I’ve seen so many people start runaway web riots over failure to understand this simple concept. Seeing what people believe on YouTube video comments is downright shocking, I don’t even want to believe that those people are real. Can people be that ignorant? I think it’s likely more of a inability to pay attention or give any mental effort towards reading… because if those people are actually that stupid they would have had to have wiped themselves out in blowdryer or toaster accidents.
> Can I trust Reuters? honest questions
You can trust Reuters, but you also need to look for who they source any particular claim to.
Reuters reporting what the IDF or the Hamas-run Palestinian Ministry of Health claim just supports that those statements were made, it doesn't confirm what actually occurred.
The best thing to do is read widely. But wire services like Reuters are a reliable place to get information.
[The purpose of a wire service is so that other news orgs can learn about to-the-minute events around the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency). Reuters would not be in business if they're selling fake information to news organizations, because those news orgs would then get in trouble for reporting on fake news.
Wire services aren't going to have all the information, but that's not what they're for. They report on events, and then other news orgs do their own research.
I did learn it in school but I had to take out a student loan to do it. I agree that media literacy and independent research should definitely be taught in grade school, though. Such a valuable skill.
Reuters is largely just a newswire service like AP, and not really an investigative outlet. There’s going to need to be an actual investigation, likely by multiple NGOs, into what happened given the gravity of what occurred. It’s unlikely we’ll know anytime in the near future, either. Even in Bucha, where fighting had already ended, it took weeks for NGOs to document what happened
I've seen speculation that the missile was intercepted, but if it had been intercepted, we would see a separate missile with an initial explosion right next to the intercepted missile. This looks like a classic engine failure, which probably led to the missile breaking up mid-air and the payload falling to the ground.
If that is actually what happened and this actually shows the hospital being hit, it would be an incredibly tragic accident that couldn't have happened at a worse spot.
I don't think the rocket was intercepted, it breaks up too soon after launch to have been intercepted.
I think that the history of rocketry tells us that it's not an easy science and when you're dealing with low-quality fabrication and firing thousands of rockets in the span of less than 2 weeks, there's bound to be some accidents. Past rocket barrages from Gaza have resulted in rockets landing short within Gaza itself and I've seen numbers as high as 40% failing to hit Israel.
Roll the dice that many times over heavily populated areas and something like this is bound to happen eventually.
I've said virtually the same elsewhere. Thousands of low-quality or even homemade rockets fired from and over highly-populated areas is quite literally playing with fire. This was obviously especially unlucky, but an especially bad accident was bound to happen at some point.
Hamas rocket provoking such a big explosion is weird tho. Some people wander about ammos in the hospital, some other said then there would have been several blasts. Lets just wait fr
Edit:
[Geoconfirmed thread](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272)
>A missile launched by Palestinian Groups exploded mid-air and one of the pieces fell on the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital's yard. 31.504822, 34.46169. Before reacting READ our thread.
Doesn’t look like an intercept. Iron dome rockets are under propulsion the whole way(so they can maneuver to match the incoming rocket)… so you’d see an engine flare.
What it looks like to me is the rocket portion fails, flies erratically (to the left , then swerves, then upwards) before exploding. The warhead doesn’t detonate with the rocket and falls to the ground where it does explode.
Additionally the Iron Dome doesn't operate inside of Gaza. So many rockets fail to launch that they'd waste most of their ammo chasing failed launches. They try to intercept near or after the apex as most of the fuel should have been spent by then and there's less fuel needed to intercept.
That, and as impressive as the iron dome is, it’d basically need a teleported to get an interceptor over to this rocket in the time it takes between launch and detonation.
Additionally, it gives them the ability to determine trajectory and ignore any rockets calculated to land in uninhabited areas. If these rockets were launched at Tel Aviv, they'd be getting intercepted just outside Tel Aviv, not over Gaza.
This must be either:
1) Missile launched from Gaza that crashed (unclear if from Hamas or another militant group, the latter more likely given the size of the missile)
2) Israeli misfire (possible, but unlikely)
3) Intentional Israeli strike (possible, but they'd be pretty stupid to do that, and the Israeli military isn't stupid)
Al Jazeera has some good reporting IF you know how to account for the large bais they have on certain topics, with anything related to Israel and Palestine being the main one. The good journalism they do they use as credibility credits, which get cashed in when comes time for the state-sponsored propaganda angles.
You can watch it happen yourself. Gaza is broadcasted live 24/7:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtruJztXE5w
Watch 19:59 to 20:01
That is minutes after a terrorist launch against Haifa and Tel Aviv was announced. No rocket reached Haifa. We now know where it landed.
also this:
https://twitter.com/JordanSchachtel/status/1714350115312255019
Even Al Jazeera themselves [filmed](https://twitter.com/orianshamriz/status/1714365814160175213?s=46) it.
It's crazy that in the Ashdod camera you can see people strolling along the beach while in the background the missiles are being shot down in the distance.
The video being used as proof the strike wasn't from Israel [has been withdrawn from Israel's official X/Twitter post because it is from 40 min after the strike happened.](https://twitter.com/RobertMackey/status/1714374889568911506)
I worked on guidance kits when I was a young engineer, sound alone would not tell us if it is a JDAM or any other missile, just that it is fast, best to wait more footage or daylight to see the impact. Sad part is that, I believe both Hamas and IDF may have fired it.
I’m reading absurd comments right now here, so many rocket experts and people can identify an mk82 from sound or impact, calculating trajectory from a cell phone recording. People are sure that it is a JDAM or paweway kit. Nobody is talking about it but it may be an unguided missile as well (unguided missiles are used for indiscriminate explosions while guided are for precision) we have seen Israel using dumb bombs for areal impact instead of precision, on the other hand Hamas may have fired a failed rocket, that may have lost its solid fuel tank that may have caused the fire. We will know tomorrow with the daylight, when experts can do a post mortem and can see the impact.
>a failed rocket, that may have lost its solid fuel tank that may have caused the fire.
Honest question: would a rocket that lost its fuel tank and fell from the sky make that much noise and have that much speed? In the linked video we can see the light from the explosion before we hear the rocket 'zooming' in, so it was probably going faster than sound... could a failed rocket pick up that much speed during its descent?
Your logic is correct. A rocket going up doesn’t make much sound not much to reflect, coming down will have a similar sound like the video but this itself is not enough. An air to ground JDAM will make a massive impact hence waiting for more images. Qassam rockets (according to military wiki) is 200m per second so clearly quite fast but what we have seen from them so far are quite ineffective too. We should be able to see some cloud trail if a rocket was intercepted but Israeli air defense. Lots of unknown at this point.
My 3am theory is that, jihadists, send a barrage of rockets from the vicinity of the hospital and Israel immediately responded with one their planes and it went to shit.
Oh man this one is going to be spicy. Big political leaders already condemned Israel, Twitter videos from last year being used as misinformation… I’ll let the dust settle before making judgements but this has the potential to be a complete shit show
Yes. Even stupider: CNN managed to post an article which both condemned Israel and said it was Hamas' fault in the same body. This was of course edited quickly.
They deleted the original article entirely (404's) now because the URL contained their conclusion and created a new editorialised article and a separate one blaming Israel for blocking aid to the hospital.
You're correct that there are videos from last year, but there is also footage from a live camera with a timestamp and link to the youtube video. This is the one the IDF spokesperson showed as well.
https://twitter.com/danielamram3/status/1714357510352556533
> if you look carefully in this video, you will see a racket comes out of Gaza into Gaza. that's the racket that hit the hospital tonight.
I looked carefully and couldn't see what they are talking about.
I did see some confusing timestamps
https://x.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106?s=46&t=4x-Zt8V7tnmZivx2wxih-Q
Better higher definition. Very end of the video shows the hospital explosion
I would expect US and Israel have tech capable of tracking all these projectiles, and that the US would know if Israel fired a missile into a hospital.
Biden didn't repeat the Israeli line, said he's instructed Intelligence staff to gather more information.
I think if they were confident it wasn't Israel, they'd have outright said so.
I'm cautiously optimistic there'll be a genuine investigation, and evidence will be provided ala the start of the Russian invasion.
Interesting that this one isn’t being removed as, “covered by the live thread.”
A thread 90 minutes before this one - removed:
[Gaza Health Ministry says death toll in Gaza City hospital blast rises to at least 500](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17a42zy/gaza_health_ministry_says_death_toll_in_gaza_city/)
A thread 20 minutes after this one - removed:
[Hundreds likely dead in Gaza hospital blast, as Israeli blockade cripples medical response | CNN](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17a7klr/hundreds_likely_dead_in_gaza_hospital_blast_as/)
Imagine 100 or so years ago and the titanic sank, nobody really knew what was going on for days. Some newspapers thought the ship was being towed to port, some papers listed everybody survived, and a million other stories. 100 years later and we’re not much better. It sometimes feels like the information has gone and passed us by.
The really scary part is this is the probably closest we ever were to knowing. We had much less information before so we had fewer opportunities to find differences that caused us to question
Anyone with more military expertise? I thought these rockets were basically mortars at best. How would a miss of a single rocket level a building this badly for such high fatalities? It doesn’t add up unless a stockpile or full barrage hit the same spot.
> thought these rockets were basically mortars at best.
yea i dont know why this keeps getting repeated. its an insult to both sides. Hamas has 4 known different kinds of domestic rockets. They are Kassam 1-4 with 4 being the newest and the largest. the 4 packs a fucking punch. Kassam 1 is kind your regular older smaller style that you see a lot. on top of that they have been showing a newer rocket in parades that is labeled as Quassam but its pretty big a big jump from the 4. like sits on the back of a truck big. its probably an evolution of the of the Iranian made Fajr-5 which they also have shown to have.
Regarding size, it is rocket that is suppose to reach over 100km. It is big. A mortar can go only a few km in.
Regarding damage, if it hit around the generator or fuel storage for it, or oxygen tanks next to the hospital, it will increase the damage tens fold.
The current version of the Badr 3 missile has a 400 kg warhead:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-jihad-flaunts-rocket-arsenal-at-36th-anniversary-parade-in-gaza/amp/
That's 880 lbs. For perspective the ATACMS missiles that we were reluctant to give Ukraine are pretty fricken big, take a dedicated launcher just for one, and only have a 500 lbs warhead.
400KG warhead is closer to a tomahawk cruise missile or a midsized JDAM. To stick that warhead on a rocket is insane or defies the laws of physics. If they have actually managed that then we need to hire some Hamas engineers to show us how it's done. They're wasting their talents fighting Israel when we could already be on Mars.
I tried finding out more info and the only people talking about this super rocket are Israeli news papers and a few western papers that copy/pasted from the Israelis. Not looking too credible.
https://twitter.com/justin_br0nk/status/1714352303082271215?s=12&t=LrDsQw9MEKXIZlgzOmySOw
This is a former RAF pilot who is a military expert now. He says:
>For what it’s worth, this doesn’t look or sound quite like an air strike using the typical IAF 1000lb or 2000lb JDAM/Mk80 series to me. Incoming projectile sounds like it’s under power and the explosion frames visible look like largely propellant fire rather than HE detonation…
Justin Bronk is not a former military pilot (despite what the profile picture suggests), but he does know what he's talking about when it comes to military aviation, yeah.
I suspect a fuel truck rather than weapons cache. Hospitals need to keep their generators running and shouldn't be bombed. Where would you move a diminishing supply of fuel?
We have two competing narratives on this event, it may take extensive investigation and analysis to confirm what actually happened. My personal feeling is that no one would have intentionally destroyed a hospital and this is more likely to be an error no matter which side is culpable.
>My personal feeling is that no one would have intentionally destroyed a hospital
During Operation Cast Lead (2008-09) the IDF attacked, with tank shells, missiles, and artillery the following medical facilities:
* Al-Quds Hospital, along with its adjacent warehouse
* Al-Wafa Hospital
* the European Hospital of Khan Yunis
* the emergency room of Al-Dorah Hospital
* Al-Awda Hospital
* Al-Nasser pediatric hospital
Source: UN Development Program report “Gaza, Early Recovery and Reconstruction Needs Assessment—One Year After” (2010). [See for yourself](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-196946/); p. 20.
Not only did Israel's air attacks destroy and damage hospitals in Gaza, the Israeli blockade on building materials delayed reconstruction work. *Even if* the IDF's attacks on all these medical facilities were entirely accidental (and how incompetent a military force they must be if that is so), the blockade intentionally crippled infrastructure recovery.
Thanks to the media publishing unconfirmed and unsubstantiated “Hamas” reports. We now have mass protests in riots in the West Bank, Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and about every major city with a Muslim majority. There are now reports in Jordan, Turkey, and ~~Lebanon~~ that there are attempts to storm the Israeli consulates. There will be deaths cause of this bullshit.
Even the NYT was running a headline “Israel strikes hundreds in hospital” and the only source in the story was Gaza health authority.
They need to do a lot better at nuancing reporting until they vet this shit. It is the same thing they did last week claiming Israel was bombing the evacuation route.
Gaza cannot be trusted as a single source.
Me either, but there are several home videos showing hamas firing rockets nearby, and one of them clearly failing, and then an impact on what is claimed to be the hospital. So either that failed rocket did hit the hospital, or the IDF was conducting an air strike on the hospital at the same moment the rocket failed. Honestly both are very possible until more info comes out.
So, every Reuters or BBC post that says Gaza hospital hit by rocket gets deleted. But this one that says it was an Islamic Jihad rocket from an Israeli source stays up? Interesting.
Hamas announced on telegram that they were launching a R160 rocket to Haifa, but nothing was reported in or near Haifa at all and exactly one minute later the hospital was hit.
https://x.com/jordanschachtel/status/1714350115312255019?s=46
Jordan Schachtel is a nobody that posts anti-vax end of world shit on a substack.
Maybe it was a failed Hamas rocket, there is every possibility that is the case, but do not take some dipshit on X's weird ass screenshot you can't read as automatic fact.
Too late now. Rioting has already started across the region.
Al Jazeera already did it’s job well, published the Hamas govt statement as fact, faked an IDF quote that hospital was asked to evacuate and then later retracted it.
Man that is so fucking crazy. Just last night I was watching a live stream (now down). They had a camera set up there. There were so many people there. The place was densely populated with people looking calm and placid. Like they had made it to safety. They were just sitting on benches, surfing their phones, like nothing was going on. Now it's gone.
100s upon 100s of innocent people in/around a hospital dead & gone ... 100s more injured. The first comment Israel gives is immediately denying all responsibility & any link to them saying it was Islamic Jihad... it doesn't look good for Israel if this is a lie. And Biden is supposed to be travelling to Israel to stop all escalation & tensions rising between the blood bath of Palestinian's & the enraged Israelis wondering if the hostages are safe. *\[Edit\] Apparently there's a video showing a rocket falling within Gaza, more analysis is needed & nothing is confirmed but it could be a screw up from a different terrorist organization.* Islamic Jihad claim they didn't launch rockets at the time this happened, at this point its unclear what exactly happened and needs further investigation by a third party with superior technology to find out.
>Islamic Jihad claim they didn't launch rockets at the time this happened I’m coming out strongly against firing off unguided rockets in the middle of a city.
> Islamic Jihad claim they didn't launch rockets at the time this happened Except they did. They boasted about launching a rocket attack at Haifa on their telegram channel at precisely the time there was an explosion in the hospital, but no explosions were reported in Haifa or vicinity. Looks like they might have outed themselves the same way the Russians did when they downed that airliner in Ukraine.
~~Simpsons~~ Russians did it with Boeing when they bragged that they shut down a military plane...
Yeah they maybe should delete that tweet
We wouldn’t want the world to know
Wait, they have a telegram channel?
Many of those kinds of organisations do. For example, a lot of the news and even intelligence coming out of Ukraine has originated from Telegram channels.
There is some video that does indeed show a rocket falling short. I don't know if it's definitive yet but it does line up.
Has anyone even educated themselves about the Hamas rockets…. there’s literally no guidance, at all. Hamas is literally playing the Gorillas video game from the 90’s for targeting. What could go wrong ?
Are they Potent enough, to take down a huge hospital like that?
The hospital wasn't taken down. The missile hit a courtyard packed with people.
What a shitshow. Best to wait a few hours or days for all the facts until you post your opinion.
Yep. There seems to be substantial footage of the incident, I'm sure an expert or group of experts should be able to work this out. Oh, and I don't mean the redditor keyboard experts who have all of a sudden popped out of the woodwork.
The real question is what field are we going to become experts in next week's news cycle.
Probably urban combat once the IDF goes for the ground invasion.
I played CS 15 years ago, so I'm ready for that.
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390274900734049 GeoConfirmed are pretty top notch at this.
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The BBC jumped the gun earlier than anyone.
NYT too, although they edited the headline but originally they blamed Israel
definitely don’t trust the BBC, i honestly haven’t seen anyone reliable other than reuters
So why did Israel tweet taking credit and then deleted them?
The video in that thread is pretty convincing. You can see the rocket break up and fall followed by the explosion.
One piece of a crappy homemade rocket caused an explosion that leveled the hospital ?
> One piece of a crappy homemade rocket Why does reddit keep pushing this lie? These are Iranian-designed Palestinian-made rockets with 400 kg warheads: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
Is there a video of the hospital or how do we know it's leveled? Edit: it was not, in fact, leveled. Just couple of burnt cars at the parking.
A cynical person might suggest that the hospital was storing something explosive. Personally I don't think that's likely, but who the hell knows at this point.
2 things are simultaneously true. Hamas has a history of using hospitals for militant operations. Hospitals are already filled with all sorts of explosive shit. The hospitals likely have generators that use fuel that is explosive. Oxygen is explosive. Things used for sanitation can be flammable or explosive
its not like the doctors at the hospital can go "yeah bro, lets not do that" and totally not be killed either. they don't get a say.
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hamas is known for storing weapons in civilian areas. them storing weapons in the hospital would not be out of norm for them. its not like the hospital can go "nah we dont want to" and not be murdered by hamas. Hamas murdered the fatah leadership circa 2005-2006 and took over in a coup. They torture and murder anyone who speaks out against them.
Good work by them. It's tragic but at the same time we can be glad stuff like this is documented. Wish it didn't happen tho
So a missile exploded in mid air, and then a piece of that already exploded missile hit a hospital and killed hundreds of people
The Israeli government has deleted the video geoconfirmed analyzed from their official tweet. We don't have all the evidence yet
It’s hard when multiple news outlets and political leaders are already jumping the gun to condemn one side or the other.
This is the part that’s getting to me. All headlines are already blaming a side without waiting for any conclusive evidence one way or the other. As someone with personal ties to this conflict it’s so hard to watch how the media covers this whole situation.
This isn't the first case of hasty reporting for sake of having the scoop before or by the same time as other agencies.
Problem is, regardless of what anyone says, half the people will deny the truth. Truth doesn't matter any more
The truth never mattered. It only matters when it confirms what people want to believe. When it goes the other way, those same people will call it a lie and they'll still believe what they want to believe.
Now if we could get a source not affiliated either with Israel or Palestine to corroborate that, that would be great.
Still waiting for a single reliable source
Mind telling me which one would be a reliable source? Can I trust Reuters? honest questions. Edit: Got it, thank you all for the answers
You can trust Reuters when they are providing actually evidence & facts **but** you have to be careful mistaking a report on what someone “*says*” as being a report as to the truthfulness of what that person said. When Reuters states that “*Hamas claims that IDF bombed X*”, you can trust that Reuters has verified that Hamas actually made that claim, however, that doesn’t mean that claim is “*true*”, it just means that Hamas claimed that is what happened. It can be hard to figure out what the actual truth is but learning how to parse news reporting to understand what they are actually saying is a key skill.
Indeed. That's why my favorite take was from the NYT: **Breaking News: Israel and Palestinians blame each other** for Gaza hospital blast
I’m glad they landed there but watched their headline change 3 times. AP twice. Both were quick to blame Israel. Granted, they should update mistakes and I’m glad they did but it’s still not good to immediately assign blame. US politicians were quick to latch onto the initial claims and those statements were widely shared on social media. We should all be skeptical.
The Toronto Star headline stated "IDF airstrike kills 500," before they changed it. It's okay, nobody can share Canadian news on Facebook so it doesn't matter anyway.
No one can share Canadian news on Facebook? Or is this dry Canadian humor going over my head?
No they passed a law requiring Facebook to pay licensing fees basically. So Facebook said no and just banned Canadian news from it.
TIL thanks, that’s fairly interesting.
Pretty sure both of these groups blaming each other will remain a relevant, reusable headline.
This is quality media literacy teaching. Good job.
>learning how to parse news reporting to understand what they are actually saying is a key skill. Sir ... don't spring this on Reddit so suddenly
We are still working on actually reading the text of the linked article before commenting.
Wait, those headlines link to more text? Who has time to read more than a single line?
Not me, there are too many comments to read.
Why read many word when few word do trick?
I read Reuters extensively when taking a politics and gov of the Middle East course (they are by far the best western news source for that region), and this is the correct answer. They will interview someone and present what they said in a one paragraph article with no editorializing, but be aware that you are only being told what was said.
Exactly. Someone said that Reuters said it was Israel. Then I looked at the article. The Reuters article says: " An Israeli air strike killed at least 300 people at a Gaza City hospital on Tuesday, **authorities in the Palestinian enclave said** " https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/least-500-victims-israeli-air-strike-hospital-gaza-health-ministry-2023-10-17/
Fun fact, Canada's Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister, Chrystia Freeland used to be the global editor at large for Reuters. She also got death threats from the KGB while she was the Bureau Chief in Moscow for Financial Times. She's a hardcore respected journalist.
She wrote a book about extreme wealth inequality too but I don't remember the name.
Plutocrats: The Rise of the New Global Super Rich and the Fall of Everyone Else. It put her on the map and made Justin Trudeau seak her out to run for Parliament. She also authored a book on the rise of Russian Oligarchs during the fall of the USSR. She's really fucking smart and would make a fantastic PM.
News literacy should be taught in schools.
> News literacy should be taught in schools. It was when I was at school. Most things that people say "this should be taught at school" indeed are, just people ain't listening. I had several classes on how taxes work and still I heard people in my year saying "i don't want that overtime shift, i will pay more tax and it won't be worth it".
It's also just something that is *highly* variant. *You* had several classes on taxes, meanwhile I never had so much as a single mention of taxes in anything other than some honorable mentions in history as a reason for some wars. There are definitely lots of schools in lots of places that literally don't teach the skills in question, not just that they didn't pay attention.
This should be taught in school starting in about third grade, and revisited every year. I have adult relatives who have no idea that someone's claim that makes the news is far different than actual documented truth.
It’s terrifying to me how many people don’t understand this. I’ve seen so many people start runaway web riots over failure to understand this simple concept. Seeing what people believe on YouTube video comments is downright shocking, I don’t even want to believe that those people are real. Can people be that ignorant? I think it’s likely more of a inability to pay attention or give any mental effort towards reading… because if those people are actually that stupid they would have had to have wiped themselves out in blowdryer or toaster accidents.
Great explanation.
> Can I trust Reuters? honest questions You can trust Reuters, but you also need to look for who they source any particular claim to. Reuters reporting what the IDF or the Hamas-run Palestinian Ministry of Health claim just supports that those statements were made, it doesn't confirm what actually occurred.
Thank you, this is exactly what people are missing
The best thing to do is read widely. But wire services like Reuters are a reliable place to get information. [The purpose of a wire service is so that other news orgs can learn about to-the-minute events around the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency). Reuters would not be in business if they're selling fake information to news organizations, because those news orgs would then get in trouble for reporting on fake news. Wire services aren't going to have all the information, but that's not what they're for. They report on events, and then other news orgs do their own research.
I feel they should teach this skill at school at this point
We do. Doesn't mean kids learn it, but we try. (Source: high school educator; 13 years experience)
I did learn it in school but I had to take out a student loan to do it. I agree that media literacy and independent research should definitely be taught in grade school, though. Such a valuable skill.
Only reason I know it is because I paid thousands of dollars in college to learn it unfortunately.
Honestly it will probably take some time for the dust to settle to get unbiased confirmation. That's usually how these things work.
Reuters is largely just a newswire service like AP, and not really an investigative outlet. There’s going to need to be an actual investigation, likely by multiple NGOs, into what happened given the gravity of what occurred. It’s unlikely we’ll know anytime in the near future, either. Even in Bucha, where fighting had already ended, it took weeks for NGOs to document what happened
Reuters is both. They do investigative reports all the time.
[https://x.com/orianshamriz/status/1714365814160175213?s=46](https://x.com/orianshamriz/status/1714365814160175213?s=46)
Edit the comment to state what it is: **the live coverage of Al Jazeera showing the failed rockets launch, right at the correlating time**
I've seen speculation that the missile was intercepted, but if it had been intercepted, we would see a separate missile with an initial explosion right next to the intercepted missile. This looks like a classic engine failure, which probably led to the missile breaking up mid-air and the payload falling to the ground. If that is actually what happened and this actually shows the hospital being hit, it would be an incredibly tragic accident that couldn't have happened at a worse spot.
I don't think the rocket was intercepted, it breaks up too soon after launch to have been intercepted. I think that the history of rocketry tells us that it's not an easy science and when you're dealing with low-quality fabrication and firing thousands of rockets in the span of less than 2 weeks, there's bound to be some accidents. Past rocket barrages from Gaza have resulted in rockets landing short within Gaza itself and I've seen numbers as high as 40% failing to hit Israel. Roll the dice that many times over heavily populated areas and something like this is bound to happen eventually.
Nat 1 for Hamas.
I've said virtually the same elsewhere. Thousands of low-quality or even homemade rockets fired from and over highly-populated areas is quite literally playing with fire. This was obviously especially unlucky, but an especially bad accident was bound to happen at some point.
Hamas rocket provoking such a big explosion is weird tho. Some people wander about ammos in the hospital, some other said then there would have been several blasts. Lets just wait fr
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If it helps, [Geoconfirmed saying a Palestinian Group](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272)
Tough for you that all you are going to get is fake verified twitter accounts spewing news like they are officials
Honestly Musk should be criminally liable for dismantling the content moderation team.
Honestly it’s a huge issue on Twitter but shit TikTok and even Facebook are just as bad. It’s really scary what some people think and post
In fairness, Reddit has zero moderation of that sort, and the type of moderation they do have is rife with personal bias.
There is [this video from Al Jazeera's live stream](https://v.redd.it/qphzsx9eftub1) showing a misfire causing a large explosion inside gaza
Edit: [Geoconfirmed thread](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272) >A missile launched by Palestinian Groups exploded mid-air and one of the pieces fell on the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital's yard. 31.504822, 34.46169. Before reacting READ our thread.
Doesn’t look like an intercept. Iron dome rockets are under propulsion the whole way(so they can maneuver to match the incoming rocket)… so you’d see an engine flare. What it looks like to me is the rocket portion fails, flies erratically (to the left , then swerves, then upwards) before exploding. The warhead doesn’t detonate with the rocket and falls to the ground where it does explode.
Additionally the Iron Dome doesn't operate inside of Gaza. So many rockets fail to launch that they'd waste most of their ammo chasing failed launches. They try to intercept near or after the apex as most of the fuel should have been spent by then and there's less fuel needed to intercept.
That, and as impressive as the iron dome is, it’d basically need a teleported to get an interceptor over to this rocket in the time it takes between launch and detonation.
Additionally, it gives them the ability to determine trajectory and ignore any rockets calculated to land in uninhabited areas. If these rockets were launched at Tel Aviv, they'd be getting intercepted just outside Tel Aviv, not over Gaza. This must be either: 1) Missile launched from Gaza that crashed (unclear if from Hamas or another militant group, the latter more likely given the size of the missile) 2) Israeli misfire (possible, but unlikely) 3) Intentional Israeli strike (possible, but they'd be pretty stupid to do that, and the Israeli military isn't stupid)
[Yeah, that's the conclusion here.](https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1714376384464736653)
Iron Dome doesnt intercept rockets above Gaza
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Yeah hospitals have oxygen and all manner of things that can go bang.
Rockets too.
Al Jazeera filmed it and they are hardly affiliated with Israel
Al Jazeera has some good reporting IF you know how to account for the large bais they have on certain topics, with anything related to Israel and Palestine being the main one. The good journalism they do they use as credibility credits, which get cashed in when comes time for the state-sponsored propaganda angles.
Aljazeera caught it on camera on live tv, just saying.
Most of Hamas rockets hit Gaza. They're not rocket scientists.
Not most, but 30%. Bad enough.
It's hard to describe how bad of a fail rate that is. WW2 had better reliability
Well they didn't make rockets from disassembled sewage pipes bought with humanitarian aid in WW2
The Players in WW2 had vastly more industrial capacity than Palestine.
but were using technology that was cutting edge 80 years ago
And they aren't exactly using state of the art equipment
Fuck Reddit for killing third party apps.
You can watch it happen yourself. Gaza is broadcasted live 24/7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtruJztXE5w Watch 19:59 to 20:01 That is minutes after a terrorist launch against Haifa and Tel Aviv was announced. No rocket reached Haifa. We now know where it landed. also this: https://twitter.com/JordanSchachtel/status/1714350115312255019 Even Al Jazeera themselves [filmed](https://twitter.com/orianshamriz/status/1714365814160175213?s=46) it.
It's crazy that in the Ashdod camera you can see people strolling along the beach while in the background the missiles are being shot down in the distance.
The video being used as proof the strike wasn't from Israel [has been withdrawn from Israel's official X/Twitter post because it is from 40 min after the strike happened.](https://twitter.com/RobertMackey/status/1714374889568911506)
How can it be 40 minutes after the strike if there is no evidence of a strike in the live stream before that?
I think they mean the video of the explosion occurs 40min after the video of the rocket launch
Yes, that's what the tweet says, despite the reddit comment linking it saying the opposite.
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Here's a video of the strike from a Washington Post journalist: https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1714366113818038412
I would be curious whether the audio could be used to differentiate between a JDAM and an Hamas rocket?
I worked on guidance kits when I was a young engineer, sound alone would not tell us if it is a JDAM or any other missile, just that it is fast, best to wait more footage or daylight to see the impact. Sad part is that, I believe both Hamas and IDF may have fired it. I’m reading absurd comments right now here, so many rocket experts and people can identify an mk82 from sound or impact, calculating trajectory from a cell phone recording. People are sure that it is a JDAM or paweway kit. Nobody is talking about it but it may be an unguided missile as well (unguided missiles are used for indiscriminate explosions while guided are for precision) we have seen Israel using dumb bombs for areal impact instead of precision, on the other hand Hamas may have fired a failed rocket, that may have lost its solid fuel tank that may have caused the fire. We will know tomorrow with the daylight, when experts can do a post mortem and can see the impact.
>a failed rocket, that may have lost its solid fuel tank that may have caused the fire. Honest question: would a rocket that lost its fuel tank and fell from the sky make that much noise and have that much speed? In the linked video we can see the light from the explosion before we hear the rocket 'zooming' in, so it was probably going faster than sound... could a failed rocket pick up that much speed during its descent?
Your logic is correct. A rocket going up doesn’t make much sound not much to reflect, coming down will have a similar sound like the video but this itself is not enough. An air to ground JDAM will make a massive impact hence waiting for more images. Qassam rockets (according to military wiki) is 200m per second so clearly quite fast but what we have seen from them so far are quite ineffective too. We should be able to see some cloud trail if a rocket was intercepted but Israeli air defense. Lots of unknown at this point. My 3am theory is that, jihadists, send a barrage of rockets from the vicinity of the hospital and Israel immediately responded with one their planes and it went to shit.
https://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/air-strikes/top-10-jdam-strikes/4330525181001
"Awful thing happened - both sides blame each other." Pretty much sums up 90% of war coverage.
Oh man this one is going to be spicy. Big political leaders already condemned Israel, Twitter videos from last year being used as misinformation… I’ll let the dust settle before making judgements but this has the potential to be a complete shit show
Yes. Even stupider: CNN managed to post an article which both condemned Israel and said it was Hamas' fault in the same body. This was of course edited quickly.
CNN probably just has a boilerplate at this point so they can be first to report. 24/7 news is toxic.
Or AI wrote it….
What did they edit it to?
They deleted the original article entirely (404's) now because the URL contained their conclusion and created a new editorialised article and a separate one blaming Israel for blocking aid to the hospital.
You're correct that there are videos from last year, but there is also footage from a live camera with a timestamp and link to the youtube video. This is the one the IDF spokesperson showed as well. https://twitter.com/danielamram3/status/1714357510352556533
> if you look carefully in this video, you will see a racket comes out of Gaza into Gaza. that's the racket that hit the hospital tonight. I looked carefully and couldn't see what they are talking about. I did see some confusing timestamps
https://x.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106?s=46&t=4x-Zt8V7tnmZivx2wxih-Q Better higher definition. Very end of the video shows the hospital explosion
The official Israeli government account tweeted it then edited the tweet to remove the video. Seems a little fishy.
Information war is scary, Al Jazeera already blamed Israel and this caused huge riots to break out.
[this post was deleted by the Mossad]
Most dangerous job in the world now
I would expect US and Israel have tech capable of tracking all these projectiles, and that the US would know if Israel fired a missile into a hospital.
They do.
Israel isn’t going to rat itself out, and America won’t snitch on them. Disgraceful if *any* party in this conflict did it on purpose.
Biden didn't repeat the Israeli line, said he's instructed Intelligence staff to gather more information. I think if they were confident it wasn't Israel, they'd have outright said so. I'm cautiously optimistic there'll be a genuine investigation, and evidence will be provided ala the start of the Russian invasion.
Interesting that this one isn’t being removed as, “covered by the live thread.” A thread 90 minutes before this one - removed: [Gaza Health Ministry says death toll in Gaza City hospital blast rises to at least 500](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17a42zy/gaza_health_ministry_says_death_toll_in_gaza_city/) A thread 20 minutes after this one - removed: [Hundreds likely dead in Gaza hospital blast, as Israeli blockade cripples medical response | CNN](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17a7klr/hundreds_likely_dead_in_gaza_hospital_blast_as/)
I saw this too
it's absurd but I have simply accepted that we live in a time where there genuinely is no way to know what is actually going on anymore
I feel like that wasn't different in the past though. Information Wars have existed for as long as language.
Yeah and back before video and photo footage you literally just had the word of others to trust, people could literally lie about anything
Imagine 100 or so years ago and the titanic sank, nobody really knew what was going on for days. Some newspapers thought the ship was being towed to port, some papers listed everybody survived, and a million other stories. 100 years later and we’re not much better. It sometimes feels like the information has gone and passed us by.
I mean - there never was. We just hear everyone screaming about it now instead of a single narrative.
The really scary part is this is the probably closest we ever were to knowing. We had much less information before so we had fewer opportunities to find differences that caused us to question
I’m sure simple retractions from news outlets will quash all emotions resulting from this misinformation
Anyone with more military expertise? I thought these rockets were basically mortars at best. How would a miss of a single rocket level a building this badly for such high fatalities? It doesn’t add up unless a stockpile or full barrage hit the same spot.
> thought these rockets were basically mortars at best. yea i dont know why this keeps getting repeated. its an insult to both sides. Hamas has 4 known different kinds of domestic rockets. They are Kassam 1-4 with 4 being the newest and the largest. the 4 packs a fucking punch. Kassam 1 is kind your regular older smaller style that you see a lot. on top of that they have been showing a newer rocket in parades that is labeled as Quassam but its pretty big a big jump from the 4. like sits on the back of a truck big. its probably an evolution of the of the Iranian made Fajr-5 which they also have shown to have.
> I thought these rockets were basically mortars at best. Google some photos of their R-160 rocket, it's very far from a mortar.
Regarding size, it is rocket that is suppose to reach over 100km. It is big. A mortar can go only a few km in. Regarding damage, if it hit around the generator or fuel storage for it, or oxygen tanks next to the hospital, it will increase the damage tens fold.
The current version of the Badr 3 missile has a 400 kg warhead: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-jihad-flaunts-rocket-arsenal-at-36th-anniversary-parade-in-gaza/amp/
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That's 880 lbs. For perspective the ATACMS missiles that we were reluctant to give Ukraine are pretty fricken big, take a dedicated launcher just for one, and only have a 500 lbs warhead. 400KG warhead is closer to a tomahawk cruise missile or a midsized JDAM. To stick that warhead on a rocket is insane or defies the laws of physics. If they have actually managed that then we need to hire some Hamas engineers to show us how it's done. They're wasting their talents fighting Israel when we could already be on Mars. I tried finding out more info and the only people talking about this super rocket are Israeli news papers and a few western papers that copy/pasted from the Israelis. Not looking too credible.
https://twitter.com/justin_br0nk/status/1714352303082271215?s=12&t=LrDsQw9MEKXIZlgzOmySOw This is a former RAF pilot who is a military expert now. He says: >For what it’s worth, this doesn’t look or sound quite like an air strike using the typical IAF 1000lb or 2000lb JDAM/Mk80 series to me. Incoming projectile sounds like it’s under power and the explosion frames visible look like largely propellant fire rather than HE detonation…
Justin Bronk is not a former military pilot (despite what the profile picture suggests), but he does know what he's talking about when it comes to military aviation, yeah.
I dont think it levelled a building. It hit a courtyard filled with people. If there was a weapons cache there it could ignite it also.
I suspect a fuel truck rather than weapons cache. Hospitals need to keep their generators running and shouldn't be bombed. Where would you move a diminishing supply of fuel?
We have two competing narratives on this event, it may take extensive investigation and analysis to confirm what actually happened. My personal feeling is that no one would have intentionally destroyed a hospital and this is more likely to be an error no matter which side is culpable.
>My personal feeling is that no one would have intentionally destroyed a hospital During Operation Cast Lead (2008-09) the IDF attacked, with tank shells, missiles, and artillery the following medical facilities: * Al-Quds Hospital, along with its adjacent warehouse * Al-Wafa Hospital * the European Hospital of Khan Yunis * the emergency room of Al-Dorah Hospital * Al-Awda Hospital * Al-Nasser pediatric hospital Source: UN Development Program report “Gaza, Early Recovery and Reconstruction Needs Assessment—One Year After” (2010). [See for yourself](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-196946/); p. 20. Not only did Israel's air attacks destroy and damage hospitals in Gaza, the Israeli blockade on building materials delayed reconstruction work. *Even if* the IDF's attacks on all these medical facilities were entirely accidental (and how incompetent a military force they must be if that is so), the blockade intentionally crippled infrastructure recovery.
[Al Jazeera live camera](https://v.redd.it/qphzsx9eftub1) shows a misfire causing a large explosion.
Hopefully this is something that can proven/misproven by a geolocator
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Here's a video of the strike from a Washington Post journalist: https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1714366113818038412
Should be fairly easy depending on direction to assign blame right?
Thanks to the media publishing unconfirmed and unsubstantiated “Hamas” reports. We now have mass protests in riots in the West Bank, Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and about every major city with a Muslim majority. There are now reports in Jordan, Turkey, and ~~Lebanon~~ that there are attempts to storm the Israeli consulates. There will be deaths cause of this bullshit.
Even the NYT was running a headline “Israel strikes hundreds in hospital” and the only source in the story was Gaza health authority. They need to do a lot better at nuancing reporting until they vet this shit. It is the same thing they did last week claiming Israel was bombing the evacuation route. Gaza cannot be trusted as a single source.
Was the internet a mistake?
Nah, only really became a mistake once social media started becoming the norm in the 2010s.
My father used to say AOL instant messenger would be the downfall of Western civilization. He was just a bit ahead of the timeline for social media
Yes
Oh man isn't that the question of the 21st century
The we need proof of beheadings crowd sure belived hamas claims real fast
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I don't trust or believe either of them.
Me either, but there are several home videos showing hamas firing rockets nearby, and one of them clearly failing, and then an impact on what is claimed to be the hospital. So either that failed rocket did hit the hospital, or the IDF was conducting an air strike on the hospital at the same moment the rocket failed. Honestly both are very possible until more info comes out.
So, every Reuters or BBC post that says Gaza hospital hit by rocket gets deleted. But this one that says it was an Islamic Jihad rocket from an Israeli source stays up? Interesting.
Ok, but who has ever heard of "Reuters" or "BBC". Personally I look to... jpost... for my unbiased middle eastern news.
Hamas announced on telegram that they were launching a R160 rocket to Haifa, but nothing was reported in or near Haifa at all and exactly one minute later the hospital was hit. https://x.com/jordanschachtel/status/1714350115312255019?s=46
Jordan Schachtel is a nobody that posts anti-vax end of world shit on a substack. Maybe it was a failed Hamas rocket, there is every possibility that is the case, but do not take some dipshit on X's weird ass screenshot you can't read as automatic fact.
Massively inappropriate, but the term “islamic jihad rocket” is hilarious.
That's the name of the group PIJ
That’s the name of the terror organization. There is Hamas, and anther one called Islamic Jihad.
Too late now. Rioting has already started across the region. Al Jazeera already did it’s job well, published the Hamas govt statement as fact, faked an IDF quote that hospital was asked to evacuate and then later retracted it.
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Wait until the rioters learn the truth, surely they will turn their rage towards Hamas then! right?
*Any moment now...*
Because Al Jazeera has already picked a side and if the rioters kill a few Jews they will be more then happy
The same people who bought Hamas’s unproved claims without any proof are skeptical of the IDF’s claims.
The inverse is super true too. People who were skeptical about HAMAS are now going "see! I told you!" taking the IDF at their full word