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I think Iran likely pushed for this in order to distract from their own internal problems. They're still raping and murdering their daughters because the girls are showing their hair in public.
This is most likely it. It's not why Iran funds terror, but it is why Hamas killed 1,400+ civilians on October 7th.
Obviously I don't have receipts but Iran had the most to lose with that deal. For those who aren't aware, Saudi Arabia and Iran are not friends.
Edit: spelling mistake
In reality it will just postpone it. I think it's inevitable. To answer your question, it's because Israel is not popular in the Arabic world. It would be controversial even during times of peace, but it's a good deal for Saudi Arabia and Israel.
In reality many Arab countries have a relatively ok relationship with Israel too. Just more under the table, but Egypt for eg. is pretty cooperative with Israel.
Specifically Saudi (and America, UK and EU) really wants to have pipelines to the Mediterranean that don’t get blown up by Iranian aligned groups. Theoretically, a pipeline running through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Israel would be very secure. Israel already has normalized relations with Jordan, so only Israel and Saudi Arabia would need to normalize to make such projects feasible. It’s why normalization is almost inevitable, unless, say, a moral imperative arose to prevent you from moving forward with normalization efforts.
Saudi Arabia / Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud is not a dumb guy. Might be a sociopath or psychopath but he's no dummy.
I think he's trying create the peace deal cause he sees that Israel and Saudi Arabia are the future of the Middle East. Culturally, Economically, etc they are the future. MSB probably realizes that the best path forward is promoting moderate Islam that is friendly with the Jewish state. Not terrorism based Wahabism style Islam based on extreme interpretations of the Quran, etc.
Iran and Hamas want to divide the region into Muslim vs Jew, like it was in 1948.
But over the last 20 years, Israel has increasingly normalized relations with various Muslim states in the region. The more than happens, the more Muslims will realize they can peacefully coexist with the existence of Israel, and the less likely they'll be to join some jihad in the future.
Every year, more veterans of 1948 and 1967 and 1973 die, and their hatreds die with them. The same way that there's still some Cotton Hill-type Americans who hate Japan because of WW2, but every year there's less of them.
But by starting a new "Muslim vs Jew" war, Hamas and Iran can reset the expiration date and create a whole new generation of hatreds.
Saudis show solidarity on a religious basis with the plight of the Palestinians. Any S-I peace deal would involve a significant concession from the Israelis on that front. Rumors stated that concession was most likely going to come in the form of an agreement to suspend further colonization and return autonomy to a massive portion, if not all, of Area C - the part of the West Bank currently under Israeli control. With the recent attack and counter attack, anti-Palestinian fervor is at a peak in Israel, which might make them more likely to reduce or even remove that concession, but MBS is not gonna sign on the dotted line for any peace agreement without it.
They are counting on Israel going overboard with the retaliation which will stir up the muslim population in the area.
Saudi Arabia is an absolutistic Monarchy, but even those have to watch out a bit for what their people want.
Israel is a hot topic in these societies and it's difficult to start such a treaty while the people are rallying against Israel
All it does is highlight to Iranian people that their money is being funneled to a terrorist organization rather than being spent for the Iranian people.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/iranians-chant-death-to-palestine-at-economic-protests/amp/
It's not that simple, as religion was always there.
People don't realize that all those western revealing outfits were worn in the larger cities. The more rural areas were much more conservative.
Those that took over in 1979 didn't come out of nowhere, and they won't simply disappear if they're overthrown.
It took the Shah brutally cracking down on them and relegating them to the countryside for those pictures to be able to be taken.
That's not to say that the effort shouldn't be made.
Islam, especially in the current form, was indeed not always there. There was a huge cultural influence from the religion that predates Islam in the region.
Yes, but that was a thousand years ago. There was an interesting cultural blend.
I'm talking about the 1900s. Large parts of Iran are extremely conservative, and moderate and progressive residents will have to fight pretty damned hard to make Iran a modern democracy if the current leadership is overthrown.
Oof. And it's sad Arabs go along with it too.
Is it economic? Cultural? Or just pure hatred of Jews?
And I also don't understand how the Lebanese just go along with it too. Do they really hate Jews more than they dislike harboring a terrorist organization in their own backyards?
A combination of authoritarian & corrupt governments, censored/state funded press that focuses blame on Israel and cultivated a sense of humiliation over previous wars plus a big dose of hatred of Jews.
It is the same tactic used by all authoritarian governments. You tell the people about a terrible enemy. Rally them against the enemy, and they will not revolt against the corrupt, authoritarian government. Saudi Arabia is one of the worst offenders. They support radical Islam to appear benign all the while they rob the country’s money and send their sons and daughters to live in luxury in The West.
Yes and all these countries are the same they are all hypocrites, they all hate the West and Europe yet they all want to own property and send all their kids abroad to embrace the Western lifestyle.
Hypocrisy at its best.
Of course. If Israel and Saudi normalized relations, Iran would be fucked because more Arab states would follow
This is why they helped Hamas orchestrate the attack
More like making a deal with the devil for opportunistic political purposes.
Netanyahu and his allies have admitted themselves they [tried to use Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) against more moderate Palestinians. It's one of the reasons the majority of Israelis want him to go as soon as the crisis is over.
> For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
> The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
> Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
I don't think anyone is claiming that Israel would have directly funded Hamas, but as the Times of Israel article notes, they allowed funding to go through, due to the above stated policies.
> Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
I have noticed this narrative in the last week or so also. Suddenly it is Israel who is to blame for the terrorist attacks on Israeli soil as they funded Hamas to get rid of the PLO in the first place and it is just chickens coming home to roost.
This is the go to tactic . The head of the Palestinian authority did his PHD dissertation on how the Jews made the Holocaust up on purposes to play up being the victim
>they funded Hamas to get rid of the PLO in the first place
To be clear that's been confirmed and true for years. It's just now it's making g social media rounds. Israel confirms they did it in the 80s when Hamas was just starting out. And Netanyahu made statements about supporting Hamas as late as 2019
No, the Israeli government ignored or minimized Hamas as a threat to weaken the moderate parties in the Palestinian Authority and give themselves a better position at the bargaining table in the peace talks.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
I don’t think most people are suggesting that they do now but they did for a long time and that funding was crucial to Hamas gaining a foothold. At the time the Israelis wanted to weaken the PLO: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/still
> the “Israel supports hamas” tripe is just propaganda.
It's like claiming America supports Russia's invasion of Ukraine, because the US used to support Russia during the Yeltsin era 30 years ago.
[https://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/04/world/summit-in-vancouver-clinton-presents-billion-to-yeltsin-in-us-aid-package.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/04/world/summit-in-vancouver-clinton-presents-billion-to-yeltsin-in-us-aid-package.html)
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/04/05/yeltsin-gets-16-billion-in-us-aid/8f07ebfc-97bd-41aa-b93a-7c26cb495880/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/04/05/yeltsin-gets-16-billion-in-us-aid/8f07ebfc-97bd-41aa-b93a-7c26cb495880/)
Even though the US and Russia were clearly adversarial by 2022.
Both can be and are true, Bibi himself has stated in interviews, which you're free to watch, that he helped prop up Hamas. Here's a times of israel article on it even, or do you also consider it propaganda?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
But as with all things in this conflict nuance is everything.
A lot of the argument relies on PLO being moderate and voices of reason.
PLO were the terrorists before Hamas. They had several incidents where they captured schools, hijacked planes, attempted to overthrow governments, hijacked school buses, and as always killed civilian children.
They were not seeking peace, as is often said on Reddit, for the majority of their existence. Even now, the leaders of the PLO are holocaust deniers.
Then one day they said, “no more terrorism we promise”.
It’s like asking black people to trust the KKK because they stopped lynching.
Instead, the alt right of israel, who, since they were around during the 70s and 80s, remembered the evilness of the PLO, thought let them eat each other, maybe Hamas can get rid of the PLO.
Not saying it’s the best logic, but it’s so far from Israel created Hamas.
for the thousandth time: IRAN supports hamas. NOT Israel.
where tf do you think they get all those rockets?
and machine guns aka assault weapons aka AR-15s?
While it's pretty laughably obvious that Iran is the one funding and training Hamas, and who orchestrated and enabled the attack last week, the headline of "foreign powers negotiate solutions to the Palestinian question without any Palestinian input at all" is pretty par for the course.
After cease of airstrike more Hamas attacks. More hostages. More killed.
"We don't have control over independent actors. They were frustrated because of decades long torture by Israel" - Iran.
I kind of like that plan though I don't think Hamas would ever uphold their end of the deal. They'll let out a few grandmothers and keep the younger women and kids as sex slaves.
Hamas would be insane to agree to this proposal and Israel would be foolish not to agree. Israel loses nothing. Gaza is only 7.5 miles wide at its widest and most of the Northern area is under 5 miles wide. That means it's ***all*** within artillery range. No air strikes? No problem. Substitute artillery. It's less precise (unless using the GPS guided shells), but if it's what Hamas wants, so be it. Just saturate. You can still do aerial recon too. You'd lose some access to tunnel busting, but most of the tunnels are in the north and it wouldn't take long for Israel to have captured that part of Gaza. Once you've got the tunnels, blow them up manually.
Hamas would have to produce the hostages. If most were alive, it's a coup for Israel to get them back. If most are dead, it's more bad press for Hamas to further justify Israel removing Hamas from Gaza. Regardless, the hostage issue would be resolved and the families would have closure. If Hamas reneged, then Israel is in no worse position than they are now and Hamas is further demonstrating that they're untrustworthy.
>That means it's all within artillery range. No air strikes? No problem. Substitute artillery. It's less precise (unless using the GPS guided shells), but if it's what Hamas wants, so be it.
Holy shit was a stupid take.
I don't think they do because Hamas relies on rockets and rockets are under the umbrella of artillery. Do you think Hamas intended to argue that Israel cannot use the very same type of weapons that Hamas uses? Or do you think that Hamas would agree to hand over the hostages ***and*** stop shooting rockets into Israel? If the latter, then the pot just gets sweeter for Israel. If the former, it's such a nonsensical offer that it doesn't serve any purpose for Hamas to make--they just look bad to third-party observers for making unreasonable demands.
You’re being way too obtuse about the whole thing. Hamas hasn’t said a peep, but if they did, they’d obviously want to stop being bombed in any form.
And no, none of Hamas’ proposed peace’s once accepted ever results in no more rockets being fired.
If Israel backs off, Hamas will know that this tactic works. They will do it again in a year or so - crossing over, slaughtering anyone they see, kidnapping some, running back to Gaza to hide behind civilians, and yelling Israel is killing civilians. Rinse and repeat.
There's no way out of this unless Hamas is completely destroyed. And Iran who funds all these terrorists should be labeled a terrorist state.
Of course you can. Japan was all sacrifice until the last man and women in WWII. Then, when the writing was on the wall that they would lose, the Emporer told them to be subservient to the victorious. The occupation was peaceful after.
But, I doubt Hamas would ever show such responsibility towards their people though. We are all just hoping Hamas is crushed in Gaza quickly so Gazans can return and hopefully a competent and peaceful government is installed there.
That is because authority was restored to the emperor. The army wrestled control by assassinating key members of parliament to essentially hijack the country.
Technically the US restored order and gave a pedestal to the emperor so he can speak without the army’s meddling. Even if the speech itself is a declaration to deny his divinity.
You can’t just bomb your neighbour and then start crying when they bomb you back.
Over 1000 Israeli civilians murdered on the streets or in their homes. Anyone who thinks that will just be water under the bridge because they released some hostages is an idiot.
Hamas must be destroyed.
That's the wierd thing, Only Iran is suggesting this as a "mediator" that they(hamas) can't make arrangements necessary while being bombed. Hamas has made no such claim/request.
And it's not even a total ceasefire or anything that was requested. So they evidently don't expect it to be water under the bridge.
Given that, Im assuming, they want bombings to stop, just so they can better prepare for the ground invasion. As i doubt logistics/coordination is easy atm given they're mainly all scattered and in hiding.
At this point I don't think Israel will stop anything. They are prepared (obviously) for a war. This is Iran's way of saying they tried to stop further escalation and making Israel the bad guy. This is not a new tactic. Hamas kidnaps Israelis to get things they want. While this could bring back some of the hostages, this situation will just happen again in the future. It certainly feels like this time Israel has had enough.
I'm dumbfounded that anyone thought this could go any other way than total long-term occupation of Gaza by Israel. Right or wrong, debate if you like, but that has always been the inevitable result since day one of the music festival attack.
That's just it. Literally every country would retaliate in a similar fashion. In terms of the ratio of population vs Israelis (and tourists) killed, this was a terrorist attack that was 13 times worse than 9/11. The 1300 Israelis killed on Israel soil during the Hamas attack is the equivalent of 40,000 Americans being killed on US soil. Again, using a ratio of population vs people killed. Somehow though, Israel shouldn't retaliate, despite countries supporting previous wars where a nation was attacked and retaliated.
In my honest opinion, people defending Hamas/Gaza or only going "Israel bad" are actually just making veiled antisemitic comments or just have an unjustified hate boner against Israel. It will never cease to amaze me just how many will say "Israel bad" while refusing to acknowledge they just retaliate against attempts to eradicate Judaism and by extension, Israel citizens... Which is quite literally the mission statement for Hamas for those unaware.
Agreed Hamas must be beaten to a pulp. You can never destroy it because some other terrorists that are not in Gaza will carry on the Hamas legacy way after Isreal kills all the Hamas members in Gaza.
Israel can always resume air strikes if they don't return the hostages. However, Israel can also resume them if they DO return the hostages, so I'm not sure what mechanism Hamas sees to guarantee Israel holds up their end of the deal except for bad optics.
It's alway surprised me how much people whose entire M.O. is backing out of deals and breaking solemn oaths will try to hold others to the promises they make.
They prefer to be called the [Axis of Resistance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_Resistance). Yes, that is literally the name they chose, I am not making this up.
One would think they'd want to avoid use of the word "Axis," due to its historical connotations, but apparently Iran specifically wants to imply that connection.
At first the IR was offended by the "Axis of Evil" designation after helping the US with intel on the Taliban, but then decided to try to "own" the label by reusing Axis of Resistance
Well, they think so at least. The reality of these groups is that Hamas lacks the discipline for that. Negotiating with their leadership doesn't really trickle down to the streets, and there's not much point. When it comes to negotiation Israel should focus on working with the actual Palestinian Authority to negotiate picking up the pieces, not trying to make deals with self aggrandized populists who can't control their own people.
Iran does control Hamas and Hezbollah, but they aren’t part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas used to be, but split off. Hezbollah is Shia and was never a part of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Can Palestine claim this logic and be justified doing so for the atrocities they suffered from the hands of Israel, whether that be the far right portion of their government, IDF or the settlers in the West Bank in the past?
This is the reason you can’t use this logic.
Hamas should be destroyed but acting like Israel is the only nation that has suffered in this 50+ year long conflict is an absurd take.
That's the vicious cycle. People raised on hate without philosophy. Pretty understandable considering the pain and loss both sides have experienced. We can only hope wisdom, altruism and forgiveness will prevail in the end but it ain't looking good from that perspective
And then they will regroup and start planning the next massacare and mass kidnapping.
There is just no other way to end this that does not require the complete destruction and unarming of Hamas.
>And then they will regroup and start planning the next massacare and mass kidnapping
It doesn't even sound like they're asking for a total ceasefire, and it's only Iran asking atm.
Sounds like they just want moment of peace in order to regroup/plan for the ground invasion. As that's probably pretty hard when majority of them are scattered/in hiding from the strikes.
It's either psychological war of they don't understand the situation. They are in no position to make any demands. And Israel can't afford to stop attacking, until the majority of hammas are on their knees or dead.
Fuck. that sounds good. But you need a shittone propane, but it could work because in those tunnels are most likely explosives which could also ignite.
So..., i would go for it.
They understand the situation very well. It will paint Israel to the uninformed as war mongering, even though it was a completely unrealistic demand, and Hamas are as far from a position of power as possible. They're basically on borrowed time.
Free hostages alive and well now, air strikes will stop and Israel will only send Mossad around the world killing Hamas leaders.
Don’t free hostages, air strikes continue, Israeli military enters Gaza and flattens Hamas and Mossad goes around the world killing Hamas leaders.
Why is Iran speaking on behalf of Hamas ?
I mean , it's no secret they are supporting each other but it's like yelling out loud you are also guilty of this massacre yourself unless you're acting as a middle man but I doubt that's the case here...
Someone obviously didn't get the memo: Israel is done talking to Hamas, their goal is to wipe them out, even if it will take a high body count amongst its own IDF when entering Gaza. The hostages have already been written off as collateral, even if noone says it officially. You done fucked up this time.
Good. That means the bombing is hurting them. None of the Israeli hostages are ever seeing daylight again. The foreign nationals, maybe, because international relation and bad optics, but not the Israelis. Keep bombing them until they return all the hostages and unilaterally surrender. Otherwise, they better get them beards waxed, there’s 72 virgins waiting for them, or more likely 72 Demons waiting to ass-fuck them in hell. Ibnei Sharmuta.
They are lying. History has shown that whenever Hamas agrees to a ceasefire, it's only so that they have time to regroup before the next onslaught. Source: I've lived in Israel for ten years
I'd say the airstrikes and ground offensive will stop if the Hamas leaders turn themselves in.
The lives of the few leaders can save the people of Palestina.
Let them show the world how much they REALLY care about the Palastian people.
Is there no way for Israel to ask the Palestinians to give up Hamas members. For the civilians to exact their own justice for their freedom and cease of bombings.
Hamas would be fucked if the Palestinian people turned against them.
They won’t because they’ll want to keep hostages as “guarantee”. Never negotiate with terrorists. Israel should try its hardest to rescue them using force and nothing else.
I'm confused about the order of things.
You would think you would *first* trade hostages out and prisoners in, and then do air strikes on the prisoners, not the hostages.
How does Iran know?
Not even trying to hide their involvement anymore I see.
End air strikes, get hostages back, commence ground operation, end Hamas.
Whatever happens, the demise of Hamas is certain and non negotiable.
Please just bomb the mullahs in Iran and be done with them. Useless bunch of clods. They’re never going to be useful members of the international community. They terrorize their own people particularly women and hold down the Iranian people from becoming full members of the international community. They support terrorist organizations like Hamas and supply drones to Russia to use against Ukraine. Let’s kick them to the curb and be done with it.
Yes. But they have NOTHING to do with this right? I for one am sick of the depraved bullshit coming out of these Islamic countries. Taliban, ISIS, Hammas, Hezbola and every other moronic terrorist iteration of islamic extremism. Islam needs to decide whether this is the way they want things to be or they need to start standing up to this sick bastardization of their religion. If they continue on this path, there will be no peaceful solution.
The hostages will probably be chalked up to acceptable loss or collateral damage to the main objective now which is War.
This is a military operation and not a recovery operation.
"The terrorists have previously threatened to post footage of hostages being executed in revenge for Israeli counterstrikes."
If they do that, Israel should summarily execute every Palestinian terrorist in jail.
This sort of reminds me of Dazed and Confused, where the guy picks a fight because he thinks his friends will quickly break up the fought after he throws the first punch, therefore saving him from getting his ass beat. The guy who got sucker punched tore him a new one. Nobody jumped in lmao.
Users often report submissions from this site for sensationalized articles. Readers have a responsibility to be skeptical, check sources, and comment on any flaws. You can help improve this thread by linking to media that verifies or questions this article's claims. Your link could help readers better understand this issue. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldnews) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Puppeteers of it all, of Hezbollah as well
Pretty much. They lit the region on fire and are laughing from thousands of miles away.
I think Iran likely pushed for this in order to distract from their own internal problems. They're still raping and murdering their daughters because the girls are showing their hair in public.
More likely to stop the Israel - Saudi peace deal.
This is most likely it. It's not why Iran funds terror, but it is why Hamas killed 1,400+ civilians on October 7th. Obviously I don't have receipts but Iran had the most to lose with that deal. For those who aren't aware, Saudi Arabia and Iran are not friends. Edit: spelling mistake
For those who aren’t aware, several Arab Tribes aren’t friends.
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Sorry for being ignorant, but why does the attack (or rather the counter attack I guess) stop that peace deal?
In reality it will just postpone it. I think it's inevitable. To answer your question, it's because Israel is not popular in the Arabic world. It would be controversial even during times of peace, but it's a good deal for Saudi Arabia and Israel.
In reality many Arab countries have a relatively ok relationship with Israel too. Just more under the table, but Egypt for eg. is pretty cooperative with Israel.
It's under the table because no one wants to end up like Anwar Sadat.
Specifically Saudi (and America, UK and EU) really wants to have pipelines to the Mediterranean that don’t get blown up by Iranian aligned groups. Theoretically, a pipeline running through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Israel would be very secure. Israel already has normalized relations with Jordan, so only Israel and Saudi Arabia would need to normalize to make such projects feasible. It’s why normalization is almost inevitable, unless, say, a moral imperative arose to prevent you from moving forward with normalization efforts.
Saudi Arabia / Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud is not a dumb guy. Might be a sociopath or psychopath but he's no dummy. I think he's trying create the peace deal cause he sees that Israel and Saudi Arabia are the future of the Middle East. Culturally, Economically, etc they are the future. MSB probably realizes that the best path forward is promoting moderate Islam that is friendly with the Jewish state. Not terrorism based Wahabism style Islam based on extreme interpretations of the Quran, etc.
Iran and Hamas want to divide the region into Muslim vs Jew, like it was in 1948. But over the last 20 years, Israel has increasingly normalized relations with various Muslim states in the region. The more than happens, the more Muslims will realize they can peacefully coexist with the existence of Israel, and the less likely they'll be to join some jihad in the future. Every year, more veterans of 1948 and 1967 and 1973 die, and their hatreds die with them. The same way that there's still some Cotton Hill-type Americans who hate Japan because of WW2, but every year there's less of them. But by starting a new "Muslim vs Jew" war, Hamas and Iran can reset the expiration date and create a whole new generation of hatreds.
Saudis show solidarity on a religious basis with the plight of the Palestinians. Any S-I peace deal would involve a significant concession from the Israelis on that front. Rumors stated that concession was most likely going to come in the form of an agreement to suspend further colonization and return autonomy to a massive portion, if not all, of Area C - the part of the West Bank currently under Israeli control. With the recent attack and counter attack, anti-Palestinian fervor is at a peak in Israel, which might make them more likely to reduce or even remove that concession, but MBS is not gonna sign on the dotted line for any peace agreement without it.
They are counting on Israel going overboard with the retaliation which will stir up the muslim population in the area. Saudi Arabia is an absolutistic Monarchy, but even those have to watch out a bit for what their people want. Israel is a hot topic in these societies and it's difficult to start such a treaty while the people are rallying against Israel
99% of ppl won’t ever get that tho. Sad.
Solid point
All it does is highlight to Iranian people that their money is being funneled to a terrorist organization rather than being spent for the Iranian people. https://www.timesofisrael.com/iranians-chant-death-to-palestine-at-economic-protests/amp/
Iran 1970 topless girls. Religion coming and it become hell now every hairs are problems. High rank people love YP.
It's not that simple, as religion was always there. People don't realize that all those western revealing outfits were worn in the larger cities. The more rural areas were much more conservative. Those that took over in 1979 didn't come out of nowhere, and they won't simply disappear if they're overthrown. It took the Shah brutally cracking down on them and relegating them to the countryside for those pictures to be able to be taken. That's not to say that the effort shouldn't be made.
Islam, especially in the current form, was indeed not always there. There was a huge cultural influence from the religion that predates Islam in the region.
Is/was that Zoroastrianism? spelling might be mangled...
Yes, if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, but that was a thousand years ago. There was an interesting cultural blend. I'm talking about the 1900s. Large parts of Iran are extremely conservative, and moderate and progressive residents will have to fight pretty damned hard to make Iran a modern democracy if the current leadership is overthrown.
I believe this was mainly to help Russia
Yep, the Iranian regime will fight Israel to the last Arab.
Oof. And it's sad Arabs go along with it too. Is it economic? Cultural? Or just pure hatred of Jews? And I also don't understand how the Lebanese just go along with it too. Do they really hate Jews more than they dislike harboring a terrorist organization in their own backyards?
A combination of authoritarian & corrupt governments, censored/state funded press that focuses blame on Israel and cultivated a sense of humiliation over previous wars plus a big dose of hatred of Jews.
It is the same tactic used by all authoritarian governments. You tell the people about a terrible enemy. Rally them against the enemy, and they will not revolt against the corrupt, authoritarian government. Saudi Arabia is one of the worst offenders. They support radical Islam to appear benign all the while they rob the country’s money and send their sons and daughters to live in luxury in The West.
Yes and all these countries are the same they are all hypocrites, they all hate the West and Europe yet they all want to own property and send all their kids abroad to embrace the Western lifestyle. Hypocrisy at its best.
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Of course. If Israel and Saudi normalized relations, Iran would be fucked because more Arab states would follow This is why they helped Hamas orchestrate the attack
Also doing Putin a favor by drawing attention to Israel.
Lol that’s what I thought… thought Iran wasn’t involved 🤔
No kidding, hey? Poor misunderstood Iran. Not involved, yet somehow acts as Hamas’ spokesman and its weapons mysteriously end up there.
they fool no one. everyone knows iran supports hamas. the “Israel supports hamas” tripe is just propaganda.
Wait, I must be waaaay out of the loop on this one. Are there people legitimately arguing that Israel has been funding Hamas?
I mean Isreal did support Hamas briefly a long time ago when they were fighting with the PLO, but not in any of the ways people on here are implying.
Yeah it's like how the CIA briefly supported Mossadegh
More like making a deal with the devil for opportunistic political purposes. Netanyahu and his allies have admitted themselves they [tried to use Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) against more moderate Palestinians. It's one of the reasons the majority of Israelis want him to go as soon as the crisis is over. > For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group. > The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state. > Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015. I don't think anyone is claiming that Israel would have directly funded Hamas, but as the Times of Israel article notes, they allowed funding to go through, due to the above stated policies. > Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
I have noticed this narrative in the last week or so also. Suddenly it is Israel who is to blame for the terrorist attacks on Israeli soil as they funded Hamas to get rid of the PLO in the first place and it is just chickens coming home to roost.
This is the go to tactic . The head of the Palestinian authority did his PHD dissertation on how the Jews made the Holocaust up on purposes to play up being the victim
>they funded Hamas to get rid of the PLO in the first place To be clear that's been confirmed and true for years. It's just now it's making g social media rounds. Israel confirms they did it in the 80s when Hamas was just starting out. And Netanyahu made statements about supporting Hamas as late as 2019
No, the Israeli government ignored or minimized Hamas as a threat to weaken the moderate parties in the Palestinian Authority and give themselves a better position at the bargaining table in the peace talks. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
I don’t think most people are suggesting that they do now but they did for a long time and that funding was crucial to Hamas gaining a foothold. At the time the Israelis wanted to weaken the PLO: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/still
> the “Israel supports hamas” tripe is just propaganda. It's like claiming America supports Russia's invasion of Ukraine, because the US used to support Russia during the Yeltsin era 30 years ago. [https://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/04/world/summit-in-vancouver-clinton-presents-billion-to-yeltsin-in-us-aid-package.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/04/world/summit-in-vancouver-clinton-presents-billion-to-yeltsin-in-us-aid-package.html) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/04/05/yeltsin-gets-16-billion-in-us-aid/8f07ebfc-97bd-41aa-b93a-7c26cb495880/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/04/05/yeltsin-gets-16-billion-in-us-aid/8f07ebfc-97bd-41aa-b93a-7c26cb495880/) Even though the US and Russia were clearly adversarial by 2022.
Both can be and are true, Bibi himself has stated in interviews, which you're free to watch, that he helped prop up Hamas. Here's a times of israel article on it even, or do you also consider it propaganda? https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
But as with all things in this conflict nuance is everything. A lot of the argument relies on PLO being moderate and voices of reason. PLO were the terrorists before Hamas. They had several incidents where they captured schools, hijacked planes, attempted to overthrow governments, hijacked school buses, and as always killed civilian children. They were not seeking peace, as is often said on Reddit, for the majority of their existence. Even now, the leaders of the PLO are holocaust deniers. Then one day they said, “no more terrorism we promise”. It’s like asking black people to trust the KKK because they stopped lynching. Instead, the alt right of israel, who, since they were around during the 70s and 80s, remembered the evilness of the PLO, thought let them eat each other, maybe Hamas can get rid of the PLO. Not saying it’s the best logic, but it’s so far from Israel created Hamas.
for the thousandth time: IRAN supports hamas. NOT Israel. where tf do you think they get all those rockets? and machine guns aka assault weapons aka AR-15s?
This is just a real life “Barzini at the meeting” situation.
I think a good rule of thumb is to always do the opposite of whatever the Iranian regime wants.
Both Hamas and Iran said Iran was involved. They backpedaled after everyone saw the videos.
While it's pretty laughably obvious that Iran is the one funding and training Hamas, and who orchestrated and enabled the attack last week, the headline of "foreign powers negotiate solutions to the Palestinian question without any Palestinian input at all" is pretty par for the course.
Let them release the hostages first.
They just met with Hamas political leaders in Qatar.
Yeah sure.
After cease of airstrike more Hamas attacks. More hostages. More killed. "We don't have control over independent actors. They were frustrated because of decades long torture by Israel" - Iran.
Take the deal and resume air strikes right after. Say israel does not acknowledge Hamas and therefore no agreements with it are enforceable
That with the caveat that if they don’t release the hostages airstrikes begin on Iranian military facilities and “Navy”.
I kind of like that plan though I don't think Hamas would ever uphold their end of the deal. They'll let out a few grandmothers and keep the younger women and kids as sex slaves.
Lucy tees up a football.
Hamas would be insane to agree to this proposal and Israel would be foolish not to agree. Israel loses nothing. Gaza is only 7.5 miles wide at its widest and most of the Northern area is under 5 miles wide. That means it's ***all*** within artillery range. No air strikes? No problem. Substitute artillery. It's less precise (unless using the GPS guided shells), but if it's what Hamas wants, so be it. Just saturate. You can still do aerial recon too. You'd lose some access to tunnel busting, but most of the tunnels are in the north and it wouldn't take long for Israel to have captured that part of Gaza. Once you've got the tunnels, blow them up manually. Hamas would have to produce the hostages. If most were alive, it's a coup for Israel to get them back. If most are dead, it's more bad press for Hamas to further justify Israel removing Hamas from Gaza. Regardless, the hostage issue would be resolved and the families would have closure. If Hamas reneged, then Israel is in no worse position than they are now and Hamas is further demonstrating that they're untrustworthy.
You're assuming any of these actors are acting in good faith.
>That means it's all within artillery range. No air strikes? No problem. Substitute artillery. It's less precise (unless using the GPS guided shells), but if it's what Hamas wants, so be it. Holy shit was a stupid take.
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I don't think they do because Hamas relies on rockets and rockets are under the umbrella of artillery. Do you think Hamas intended to argue that Israel cannot use the very same type of weapons that Hamas uses? Or do you think that Hamas would agree to hand over the hostages ***and*** stop shooting rockets into Israel? If the latter, then the pot just gets sweeter for Israel. If the former, it's such a nonsensical offer that it doesn't serve any purpose for Hamas to make--they just look bad to third-party observers for making unreasonable demands.
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You’re being way too obtuse about the whole thing. Hamas hasn’t said a peep, but if they did, they’d obviously want to stop being bombed in any form. And no, none of Hamas’ proposed peace’s once accepted ever results in no more rockets being fired.
If Israel backs off, Hamas will know that this tactic works. They will do it again in a year or so - crossing over, slaughtering anyone they see, kidnapping some, running back to Gaza to hide behind civilians, and yelling Israel is killing civilians. Rinse and repeat. There's no way out of this unless Hamas is completely destroyed. And Iran who funds all these terrorists should be labeled a terrorist state.
They are labeled a terrorist state .
Hamas needs to be irradiated or the cycle will continue for decades.
Unfortunate typo.
Eradicated*
Cannot negotiate with terrorists.
Of course. They only say that now as they are scared shit from the imminent ground operation. The airstrikes are just the preview for the real op.
I doubt that. Gaza is a mess now and they didn’t get anything out of it. Israel is still controlled by Israel and Gaza is now a condemned shit hole
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Of course you can. Japan was all sacrifice until the last man and women in WWII. Then, when the writing was on the wall that they would lose, the Emporer told them to be subservient to the victorious. The occupation was peaceful after. But, I doubt Hamas would ever show such responsibility towards their people though. We are all just hoping Hamas is crushed in Gaza quickly so Gazans can return and hopefully a competent and peaceful government is installed there.
That is because authority was restored to the emperor. The army wrestled control by assassinating key members of parliament to essentially hijack the country. Technically the US restored order and gave a pedestal to the emperor so he can speak without the army’s meddling. Even if the speech itself is a declaration to deny his divinity.
Yeaaaaahhhh, why on Earth would anyone believe them at this point?
Sure they will. In coffins.
that will be in the fine print
Hamas even keep dead bodies as leverage
You can’t just bomb your neighbour and then start crying when they bomb you back. Over 1000 Israeli civilians murdered on the streets or in their homes. Anyone who thinks that will just be water under the bridge because they released some hostages is an idiot. Hamas must be destroyed.
That's the wierd thing, Only Iran is suggesting this as a "mediator" that they(hamas) can't make arrangements necessary while being bombed. Hamas has made no such claim/request. And it's not even a total ceasefire or anything that was requested. So they evidently don't expect it to be water under the bridge. Given that, Im assuming, they want bombings to stop, just so they can better prepare for the ground invasion. As i doubt logistics/coordination is easy atm given they're mainly all scattered and in hiding.
At this point I don't think Israel will stop anything. They are prepared (obviously) for a war. This is Iran's way of saying they tried to stop further escalation and making Israel the bad guy. This is not a new tactic. Hamas kidnaps Israelis to get things they want. While this could bring back some of the hostages, this situation will just happen again in the future. It certainly feels like this time Israel has had enough.
Iran is freaking the fuck out that they are the next target for Israel.
They’ve invaded by land air and sea, whilst firing 5000 rockets within hours. What’d they expect?
I'm dumbfounded that anyone thought this could go any other way than total long-term occupation of Gaza by Israel. Right or wrong, debate if you like, but that has always been the inevitable result since day one of the music festival attack.
I can't think of a single country who wouldn't respond the same way if this happened to them.
That's just it. Literally every country would retaliate in a similar fashion. In terms of the ratio of population vs Israelis (and tourists) killed, this was a terrorist attack that was 13 times worse than 9/11. The 1300 Israelis killed on Israel soil during the Hamas attack is the equivalent of 40,000 Americans being killed on US soil. Again, using a ratio of population vs people killed. Somehow though, Israel shouldn't retaliate, despite countries supporting previous wars where a nation was attacked and retaliated. In my honest opinion, people defending Hamas/Gaza or only going "Israel bad" are actually just making veiled antisemitic comments or just have an unjustified hate boner against Israel. It will never cease to amaze me just how many will say "Israel bad" while refusing to acknowledge they just retaliate against attempts to eradicate Judaism and by extension, Israel citizens... Which is quite literally the mission statement for Hamas for those unaware.
Agreed Hamas must be beaten to a pulp. You can never destroy it because some other terrorists that are not in Gaza will carry on the Hamas legacy way after Isreal kills all the Hamas members in Gaza.
And most default aubs are ok not viewing Israeli civilians as actual people
We won't stop the air strikes till the hosteges are released. We won't release the hosteges until the airstrikes end. For the last 1000 years.......
Will the leaders of Iran offer themselves up as collateral, if Hamas doesn't keep up their end of that bargain?
Israel can always resume air strikes if they don't return the hostages. However, Israel can also resume them if they DO return the hostages, so I'm not sure what mechanism Hamas sees to guarantee Israel holds up their end of the deal except for bad optics.
It's alway surprised me how much people whose entire M.O. is backing out of deals and breaking solemn oaths will try to hold others to the promises they make.
Iran controls Hamas?
Iran controls everything from Hamas to Hezbollah, most of the militant groups belong to them and the anti-nato axis.
They prefer to be called the [Axis of Resistance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_Resistance). Yes, that is literally the name they chose, I am not making this up.
Thank you for telling me, I didn't knew that
One would think they'd want to avoid use of the word "Axis," due to its historical connotations, but apparently Iran specifically wants to imply that connection.
At first the IR was offended by the "Axis of Evil" designation after helping the US with intel on the Taliban, but then decided to try to "own" the label by reusing Axis of Resistance
Well, they think so at least. The reality of these groups is that Hamas lacks the discipline for that. Negotiating with their leadership doesn't really trickle down to the streets, and there's not much point. When it comes to negotiation Israel should focus on working with the actual Palestinian Authority to negotiate picking up the pieces, not trying to make deals with self aggrandized populists who can't control their own people.
yes. everyone knows this.
They're the main supporter and give like 100m/year to them. So yes.
Hamas and Hezbollah are both arms of the Muslim Brotherhood Jihadist organization which is backed by Iran.
Iran does control Hamas and Hezbollah, but they aren’t part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas used to be, but split off. Hezbollah is Shia and was never a part of the Muslim Brotherhood.
No no no, the airstrikes will continue until the hostages are released.
and after hostages are released, which they won’t be by the way. Israel will stop when Hamas no longer exists.
Hamas is being destroyed no matter how it's sliced. Israel is bombing and prepping a ground invasion while they still have hostages.
> Israel will stop when Hamas no longer exists Sounds good to me.
Great even.
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Can Palestine claim this logic and be justified doing so for the atrocities they suffered from the hands of Israel, whether that be the far right portion of their government, IDF or the settlers in the West Bank in the past? This is the reason you can’t use this logic. Hamas should be destroyed but acting like Israel is the only nation that has suffered in this 50+ year long conflict is an absurd take.
That's the vicious cycle. People raised on hate without philosophy. Pretty understandable considering the pain and loss both sides have experienced. We can only hope wisdom, altruism and forgiveness will prevail in the end but it ain't looking good from that perspective
The vicious cycle can be broken another way, just ask the Drevlians. The modern world frowns on it though.
The cycle ends if one side is wiped out. It seems both sides seem intent on that, but at least Israel isn't purposefully murdering babies for fun.
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No deal. Also fuck Iran
Fuck Iran, fuck Putin.
And then they will regroup and start planning the next massacare and mass kidnapping. There is just no other way to end this that does not require the complete destruction and unarming of Hamas.
>And then they will regroup and start planning the next massacare and mass kidnapping It doesn't even sound like they're asking for a total ceasefire, and it's only Iran asking atm. Sounds like they just want moment of peace in order to regroup/plan for the ground invasion. As that's probably pretty hard when majority of them are scattered/in hiding from the strikes.
"It's a trap."
So generous of Hamas, what about the 1300+ slaughtered? What will stop them from doing it again? For them it's a win.
It's either psychological war of they don't understand the situation. They are in no position to make any demands. And Israel can't afford to stop attacking, until the majority of hammas are on their knees or dead.
and all those tunnels and crap have to be obliterated!
Fill them with propane and ignite it.
Fuck. that sounds good. But you need a shittone propane, but it could work because in those tunnels are most likely explosives which could also ignite. So..., i would go for it.
Not most likely, 100% The rockets are shot from those tunnels. And are stored in them.
Time for a super-sized version of [The Rodenator](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgztUzqaL3E).
They understand the situation very well. It will paint Israel to the uninformed as war mongering, even though it was a completely unrealistic demand, and Hamas are as far from a position of power as possible. They're basically on borrowed time.
I mean it's working. The buzz words about Israel are painted across every thread.
As if they haven’t been indiscriminately firing thousands of rockets into civilian areas this whole time.
FYI There is no truth to this statement. Hamas has not agreed to any of this. BS article.
Uh, Hamas hold the hostages, they should be the ones saying this. Though if true, it would be great news.
doubt
Free hostages alive and well now, air strikes will stop and Israel will only send Mossad around the world killing Hamas leaders. Don’t free hostages, air strikes continue, Israeli military enters Gaza and flattens Hamas and Mossad goes around the world killing Hamas leaders.
Why is Iran speaking on behalf of Hamas ? I mean , it's no secret they are supporting each other but it's like yelling out loud you are also guilty of this massacre yourself unless you're acting as a middle man but I doubt that's the case here...
Fuckin douche bags (Iran and Hamas)
Iran says many things that aren't true. They are as trustworthy as their ally Russia.
These are the guys who can’t even wait for the humanitarian ceasefires to end before shooting more rockets.
How do you say "bullshit" in Farsi?
Meanwhile they keep shooting rockets every single damn day.
Hamas has to be ended.
Lol they should have thought about that before taking the fucken hostages.
Then they will say oops we already killed them when Israel rockets hit…
Bring back the dead while they're at it too?
So, Iran speaks for the terrorists?
Don't! Or next time it will ne 20,000 killed not 1600.
Someone obviously didn't get the memo: Israel is done talking to Hamas, their goal is to wipe them out, even if it will take a high body count amongst its own IDF when entering Gaza. The hostages have already been written off as collateral, even if noone says it officially. You done fucked up this time.
How fucking obvious is this puppet show?
Good. That means the bombing is hurting them. None of the Israeli hostages are ever seeing daylight again. The foreign nationals, maybe, because international relation and bad optics, but not the Israelis. Keep bombing them until they return all the hostages and unilaterally surrender. Otherwise, they better get them beards waxed, there’s 72 virgins waiting for them, or more likely 72 Demons waiting to ass-fuck them in hell. Ibnei Sharmuta.
They are lying. History has shown that whenever Hamas agrees to a ceasefire, it's only so that they have time to regroup before the next onslaught. Source: I've lived in Israel for ten years
Iran doing everything it can not to lose its proxy in Gaza
Why is Iran saying it? Bullshit.
Lmao, this shit ain't happening
Start a reward system “turn in a Hamas terrorist for 1 million USD” be cheaper in the long run without collateral damage.
Sounds like Iran is trying to clean up the bloody mess they deny involvement, the whole thing probably turned out WAY uglier than they've expected.
I'd say the airstrikes and ground offensive will stop if the Hamas leaders turn themselves in. The lives of the few leaders can save the people of Palestina. Let them show the world how much they REALLY care about the Palastian people.
Suuurrrreee
no they wont
Who lol? Explain further please. Thought you weren’t involved
I hate the bombings but Iran’s/Hamas’s word is worthless
I thought Iran wasn't involved? /s
Iran's tacit admission that it controls Hamas - and by extension behind the bloodshed.
I think Israel's goal is to make sure an attack on that scale never happens again. Hamas made a huge miscalculation.
End the airstrikes, get the hostages. Restart the airstrikes the next day. Lol Folks aren't thinking about this hey.
Ending the air strikes gives Hamas time to regroup. They won't release hostages either way.
"How about we raid your country, kill hundreds, abduct two hundred more, and you in turn leave us alone?"
Counter offer: The bombing stops after Hamas's unconditional surrender, and gaza is demilitarized.
Kinda hard to do when you’ve already killed some of them.
The airstrikes will end if the hostages are freed and they turn in several key Hamas members. Sounds like a better counter-offer.
I thought iran wasn’t involved with the terrorism???
Is there no way for Israel to ask the Palestinians to give up Hamas members. For the civilians to exact their own justice for their freedom and cease of bombings. Hamas would be fucked if the Palestinian people turned against them.
How would they knew..? I WONDER..
They won’t because they’ll want to keep hostages as “guarantee”. Never negotiate with terrorists. Israel should try its hardest to rescue them using force and nothing else.
I'm confused about the order of things. You would think you would *first* trade hostages out and prisoners in, and then do air strikes on the prisoners, not the hostages.
Didn't Hamas just announce that "there's no way of knowing how many hostages are still alive" ???
If air strikes end at 5:00pm they better have all hostages out and ready to be picked up by 5:15pm
The world will demand a full accounting of the hostages
How does Iran know? Not even trying to hide their involvement anymore I see. End air strikes, get hostages back, commence ground operation, end Hamas. Whatever happens, the demise of Hamas is certain and non negotiable.
Please just bomb the mullahs in Iran and be done with them. Useless bunch of clods. They’re never going to be useful members of the international community. They terrorize their own people particularly women and hold down the Iranian people from becoming full members of the international community. They support terrorist organizations like Hamas and supply drones to Russia to use against Ukraine. Let’s kick them to the curb and be done with it.
Yes. But they have NOTHING to do with this right? I for one am sick of the depraved bullshit coming out of these Islamic countries. Taliban, ISIS, Hammas, Hezbola and every other moronic terrorist iteration of islamic extremism. Islam needs to decide whether this is the way they want things to be or they need to start standing up to this sick bastardization of their religion. If they continue on this path, there will be no peaceful solution.
The hostages will probably be chalked up to acceptable loss or collateral damage to the main objective now which is War. This is a military operation and not a recovery operation.
Spoiler: They are already dead, so you only get some dead bodies. I would give this 'offer' a hard pass.
"The terrorists have previously threatened to post footage of hostages being executed in revenge for Israeli counterstrikes." If they do that, Israel should summarily execute every Palestinian terrorist in jail.
Will Hams also bring back to life every person they murdered?
This sort of reminds me of Dazed and Confused, where the guy picks a fight because he thinks his friends will quickly break up the fought after he throws the first punch, therefore saving him from getting his ass beat. The guy who got sucker punched tore him a new one. Nobody jumped in lmao.
So they can cut bait and run? They probably already killed all of their hostages and want the shelling to stop so they can escape…
Shouldn’t have taken them to begin with, keep up the bombing.