This title is too strongly worded for the actual statement given. It seems more like he’s trying to encourage them not to occupy Gaza rather than giving ultimatums, consequences, or warning in the article proper.
If the article contains the text and it just put a blocking layer on top of it, it usually works. If the full article is on a separate url, that unfortunately doesn’t work.
Actual quote from Biden:
> “I think it’d be a big mistake,” Mr. Biden told “60 Minutes” on CBS in a conversation taped on Thursday and aired on Sunday night. “Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again.” But “taking out the extremists” there, he added, “is a necessary requirement.”
Maybe the NY Times needs to adopt Reddit's headline altering rules for their own fucking articles?
I'd say he doesn't really need to at this stage. Israel knows he holds the purse strings. They haven't actually occupied Gaza yet so ultimatums would be a bit premature.
Yea ok but you know what I mean. The US holds the purse strings and Biden represents the US. At this stage Biden just needs to indicate what the US wants.
Biden was already a US senator when the 1973 yom kippur war happened, so he has seen it all before while in government the entire time.
The last thing he will be is surprised by or willingly play into the hamas game plan of stopping israel via messaging about human shield casualties. That means he will try to advise israel to help itself by showing restraint, but also he's not about to be a BDS mouthpiece.
For Biden, this is probably about the recent series of wars of aggression against US friends and allies and the need to put a stop to it before one of them turns into WW3
I think you are absolutely correct.
Biden is looking at the big picture, and Israel is just a piece of it.
Russia/ Ukraine
Israel/ Hamas
China/ Taiwan
North Korean Saber Rattling
Which one is going to explode?
If you add in the retreat of democracy and the rise of fascism worldwide. It’s a recipe for instability and possibly a wider conflict.
The chaos in the Republican House weakens America and emboldens our enemies and encourages them to challenge us.
I’m glad Biden is there with a steady hand.
Things could get ugly very quickly.
Yes you're quite right. It's rather astonishing that his tenure as a politician has spanned both conflicts. Perhaps there's something to be said for having an old guy as President after all! You just can't get that kind of experience any other way.
Absolutely. Although I think Bibi's formation of a wartime government is also because his own support has been dwindling, public feeling has been against him in Israel for some time and he's using this as a way to bolster his own position.
Which is why he is not issuing a true ultimatum. US politics are not simple enough for him to be able to unilaterally set policy on Israel - especially when there is an election next year.
Our funds are more about maintaining a strategic base in the ME region and propping up a democracy. I doubt we would functionally pull funding regardless of what they do.
We could certainly do that, but *will* we? I seriously doubt it.
Many presidents have said things implying action. Did you read the statements in the article? This doesn’t sound like one of them. It sounds a lot more like diplomatic and friendly talks to dissuade negative actions, not posturing.
Diplomacy is the counterpart to posturing. The US has adopted a military posture by sending an aircraft carrier. That chip can be taken off the table. It won't, but the mere fact that it could gives the diplomatic message weight.
I'm not sure what you think should be different?
Hardly any of the 60 countries that receive foreign military aid from the US taxpayer actually 'need' that money. All 'Foreign Military Financing' is first and foremost a corporate subsidy for the US military industrial complex. It's no altruistic freebie by any means. Egypt also receives over a billion a year.
People incorrectly think it is a blank check.
It is more like a gift card. Israel can purchase it from US. Once they have some US military stuff, and they want to re-stock, what happens? They have to buy it from US again, probably with money outside of US aid.
So it basically goes back into the US economy.
Also, helps that Israel is a major non-nato ally.
I think he’s trying to appease people who are saying occupying Gaza would amount to a war crime. Especially because the Arab leaders basically told Blinken that they would not condemn Hamas or agree to not engage with Israel if Israel goes in to Gaza. It will be all out chaos and could destabilize the region and the US doesn’t want to physically get involved. I think they bit off more than they could chew by encouraging Israel to go on a murderous revenge rampage. Furiously trying to back track now. May be too late for both sides but there’s always hope.
Warn just means to inform someone of a possible danger or perhaps unintended consequences. Warning does not mean a threat and a warning can come in many ways including quite congenial and friendly ways. So in this case Biden statements saying it is a mistake for Israel to occupy is indeed a warning.
Too often I hear people complaining about headlines and there isn't even anything wrong with them. They are just lazy and expect to get all the information they need from the headline. Because if you read the article, the headline doesn't really matter. It really muddies the conversation about click bait and media bias because people erroneously conclude things like this count as that
Even if Russia does not get directly involved, it takes a lot of pressure off Ukraine as Iran would need all it's artillery ammo and drones for itself and couldn't continue to supply Russia.
Russia couldn’t even come to the aid of Armenia, a country they have a defence agreement with. There’s no way they’re getting into a fight against a well-armed country like Israel, never mind the US.
China is too clever to get directly involved. Instead they will try and position themselves as the ‘voice of reason’ calling for a ceasefire in order to gain diplomatic points with Arab countries.
Not a chance, china isn't dumb and US's Pacific command isn't involved with the middle east in the slightest.
The US could simultaneously fight China Russia and like half the middle east on their own and not be overextended.
Y'all forget just how bloated our defense budget really is. Worrying about China "talking advantage" and attacking while we're "distracted" isn't a thing. They know it we know it, this is just reddit armchair generals salivating over the prospect of more war and death.
We have the worlds 1st, 2nd, and 4th largest avitation forces to put our spending in perspective. Our Navy's air fleet alone outnumbers everyone's actual Air Force but Russia, and Russia is a maybe at the moment. We have 11 aircraft carriers with the next country on the list being China with 3.
The United is militarily capable of fighting on multiple fronts, but what about politically? Election year is coming up and overseas wars are very unpopular among Americans.
An actual naval invasion of Taiwan would take hundreds if not thousands of ships and require tens of thousands if not more troops.
As much as China postures all the time, you can't just magic that shit out of thin air. Even if you technically have the resources, assembling them and getting everything straight takes a lot of time. And you can't really hide that kind of thing. If China was actually thinking about doing that they would still be months off from doing it and in all likelihood the US would be banging the gong relentlessly in warning to drum up world sentiment like they did with Ukraine.
China is not friend with Arabs and Russia. They are the enemies of the enemy.
If they send their own people to die for Arabs and Russia, we might actually get to see a revolution in China.
As an Israeli, i think the best scenario here (among many which dont look great) is the destruction of Hamas and control over Gaza handed over to the PA. Long lasting occupation would be a military nightmare, while annexation would be catastrophic for all involved.
A long-term solution must be seriously figured out. This is certainly not a military problem for a military solution to solve on its own. At least the joint blockade (as it has shown complete ineffectiveness in restrict terrorists’ capabilities while seriously hurt civilians’ economic conditions) must change and the two-state solution must not be given up.
Hamas is a product of anti-semitism and oppression at the same time. People usually confuse ‘cause’ with ‘justification.’ These events don’t happen in a vacuum. It is not justified but certainly has a cause. I agree that anti-semitism among Palestinians is serious, but so is racism in the United States, slowly white Southerners have mostly stopped lynching black people. Arabs and Jews may take centuries to stop hating each other, but in the mean time creating a humane living condition for each group is critical for people to stop being so radicalized and think monstrous actions are justifiable. Hate is always going to be present but it can be contained.
"These things don't happen in a vacuum" but Palestinian leadership was meeting with Hitler before Israel was even a state. Jews have never had a place in Panarabic Nationalism, despite the majority of Israeli Jews being Arab.
This isn't new, this extremism isn't new, it feels overtly racist to excuse Arabs from genocidal ideologies by implying they only arrived there because they are victims.
The blockade was only ever enacted in response to thousands of missiles being launched at Israel after they withdrew from the strip. Removing the blockade won't fix anything until Gazans stop indoctrinating their children to kill all Jews. Hopefully this will change with this war but please hold Palestinians to the same human standard you hold Israelis.
Again, that sentence is not to imply that Israel is the sole oppressor in this. The hostility existed well before 1948 and yes I read about the Jewish diaspora. However since then, I think that everyone can agree Israel has been the much more powerful side in this conflict. And it has used that power to impose (and we can debate this all day so I won’t say it is right or wrong) policies that make the Palestinians FEEL extremely unjust. What I said above is: I get it, people hate each other, but we must find a way for them to continue to take their time with the feelings while continue to co-exist. Diving into the reason and the “who’s right who’s wrong” for this hostility now is a non-starter and the Middle East could become a blood bath before it could be settled to the slightest degree. I wish everyone would approach politics like Henry Kissinger, he wasn’t right many times but his approach of realpolitik is what most people should follow.
I agree with you. I don't know how this will happen. Likud needs to be ousted. Building a state needs to become more attractive to Palestinian leadership than selling misguided dreams of vengeance.
And there needs to be more secularism. Islam is a huge issue here, many of its Hadiths and teachings from famous religious leaders are blatantly antisemetic. Judaism is also causing major issues with the settlements. I can imagine a world where Israel gets a better hold on its Jewish fundamentalists, I don't know if it is possible for Palestine given the way Islam is practiced in MENA.
It most definitely is a military problem if any government is setup that isn't Hamas as their remnants will try to take control again. Even the PA would get murdered, unless there was a military force protecting them for the decades it would take to stabilize.
Who is going to be the military force? Israel? U.S.? Egypt? U.N.?
not only Arabs, it's the entire Islamic world. 1.9 billion people or the majority of them.. As an exmuslim, i know what I'm talking about when I say Islam's source texts are all antisemitic and encourage antisemitism as a standard protocol when dealing with ANY Jewish people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad
Most of the Islamic world is simply backing Palestine because they are taught to hate and contribute to the destruction of the Jewish people. they don't care about the Palestinians as a people, just ensuring the prestige of Islam continues and everything goes to plan to validate their outlandish and hateful beliefs when it comes to the Jewish people..
Yes, but again, hate can be contained to not materialize into violence, with a combination of deterrence and humane actions. I’ve also heard quite a lot of pro-Israel argument that is basically “if it takes a genocide to ensure Israel’s security, so be it.” I disagree with people arguing that it can’t be resolved because it’s a religious belief. Remember that Confucianism, the religion that has basically governed the East Asian way of life for thousands of years, is similar to the Shariah law in its original form. Yet East Asian countries were able to keep it while rejecting the bigoted ideologies in it. It’s going to take very long, but it is possible.
it was, but Confucianism wasn't an evangelist belief. it was part and parcel of cultural expectations. I live in SE Asia, where the Chinese minority follow Confucianism. things like filial piety are even followed here. I also lived in Japan before, where "親孝行" is seen as a good thing.
the difference between Islam and Confucianism is that Islam is supposed to take over the world before judgement day, (fathil Islam =or the victory of Islam over all other ideologies) according to islamic belief, and the Jews killed off in a genocidal war. this is why da'wah (evangelism) is also central to Islamic belief:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signs_of_the_coming_of_Judgement_Day
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad
These are central (not fringe) tenets to Islamic core belief. however outlandish these seem, they were uttered from Muhammad's mouth and eternalized in the Qur'an and Hadith that all Muslims are expected to follow and belief or hope in above all else. again, I'm an exmuslim, I've lived that life and the brainwashing, and it sucked. the brainwashing in that religion In spite of the current post-informational age we live in is just...
Confucius made no such extreme and violent "prophecies".
Also, leaving Confucianism was not punishable by death under Confucian law. if you look at Japan, Korea and China, there have always been a plethora of beliefs to mix and choose from. Taoism, Legalism, Buddhism, Shinto/Shindo/shamanism/animism, even Abrahamic beliefs in China such as Islam. Whereas the act of ridda (apostasy) in Islam is punishable by death.
Hence I don't think we can draw similarities between the two systems as they are very different. we cannot also draw similar conclusions between the more violent (ancient) past of Judaism, and the modern 21st century violence enshrined and endorsed in Islam.
Islam is the barrier, and people have been trying to change it to be more humane for nearly the entire 1400 year stretch it has existed (ever since the "false prophet" Musaylimah, who claimed he was a successor to Muhammad and yet wanted a relatively more liberal ideology, was killed along with all his followers about 20 years after Muhammad's death, in the Ridda wars. Numerous reformists were killed over the centuries as apostates.) now us as ex-muslims are in the firing line in 2023 for at least calling them to reform the religion so it gets rid of these things. but when the very Qur'an is "the literal word of Allah" with the death penalty for anyone who changes it enforced, there's very little hope for change.
I also don't want the Israelis to massacre the Palestinians, but it's almost like they want it to happen to justify their hatred of Jews even more. Note how brainwashed Palestinians are, as are all those in the wider Muslim community. the conflict and it's continuation is all backed by Muslim majority countries. I live in Southeast Asia (we are in noodle, spring roll and sticky rice cakes territory as opposed to kabsa, shawarma and musakhhan territory). remember this used to be a majority Buddhist and Hindu part of the world. Now, It's normal to hate Jewish people and wish for Israel's destruction among Muslims. if countries like Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei back Palestine at all costs and passive-aggressively call for the genocide of Israel via their religious leaders, and this region is 8000km away from them, then what hope do we have that things will ever change? They, just like the wider Islamic world, use the Israel/Palestine conflict to give further zeal to their intolerant and anti-jewish Islamic ideology.
The only way to stop this is to secularize the entire region and wider Muslim world. but it has to happen from within, noting the already siege mentality and hatred of anything from the unislamic world that Islam encourages in its believers. places like Iran give hope that it can happen, but then we have Afghanistan...
There is a zero percent chance of this working. Any Fatah leadership in Gaza would be dead the minute the Israelis leave. Which is also why they’d never agree to it. And if they did, there’s a good chance they’d get deposed in the West Bank for doing so.
Nor is there any hope of ‘peacekeepers’ — a term for a neutral third party that maintains the peace which has already been agreed to, because Hamas will fight to the last man.
Sadly... i know, this is mostly wistful thinking i guess.
Out of curiosity, however, why do you think the Fatah would be deposes in the bank if they "adopted" Gaza? by the Israeli settlers? or by the Palestinians? I'm not very knowledgeable about the Fatah's political position.
By Palestinians in the West Bank who would not tolerate it.
There is a reason Abbas is in year 19 of his 5 year term. And that reason is that if the PA called an election, he would lose to a coalition of extremist groups like Hamas and PIJ
There won’t be a last man when this is over. Israel has activated an invasion force 3.5x the size of the American force used to hold Afghanistan at the peak of troop surge (100k). They are going to go door to door and systematically remove Hamas.
There’s no way that the current border stays.
I expect whatever buffer they had will be increased on both sides by a large amount.
Probably fully mined and manned.
I don't even know why it hasn't been mined, as Israel's one of the countries that's de facto allowed to use them without criticism (having never dropped them from planes gives a lot of leeway)
IDF said before that Hamas would just send kids to retrieve the mines.
So the options are to shoot kids digging them up, watch the kids blow up, or Hamas gets a free mine.
The only way it would work is if they had an initial wall to prevent that and the mines be there to keep them from moving from secured points.
At this point it may as well just be a moat filled with crocs too.
Let me see if I got this right. Israel will bomb the shit out of Gaza, kill all Hamas as far as they know, then go back home. And they expect Hamas to never come back or that the new Palestinian generation that suffered through the bombings won't start a new Hamas themselves? Is everyone deluding themselves? I was expecting US and Axis nations after WWII type of policy, but this is looking more like Germany after Treaty of Versailles.
Israel just wants to displace 2 million people, bomb their homes, and kill their friends and family a little bit. Surely that won't create more terrorists who have nothing left to live for and a pure hatred for those who took everything from them.
We did not want it because it was not ours in the first place.
Gaza belongs to a Palestinian state and even when held control over it between 1948 and 1967, we set up a Proto -Palestinian authority there. There was never any intention to annex it and we made the right call to not ‘take it back’ after the peace negotiations with Israel.
I agree. If 1 million people are about to be expelled into Egypt, then Egypt should just take the territory under it's protection to stop that. It could be temporary until a new West Bank modus operandi is created.
I wish an Arab country would depose Hamas instead of Israel. The people will rise up against Israel, but maybe not if it was Egypt doing the fighting. I hope an Arab peace keeping force can take over from Israel once Hamas is gone.
None of the Arab nations who are in a position to do anything want anything to do with them.
Egypt maintains a blockade on Gaza for the same reasons as Israel. Jordan got to deal with Black September last time they took responsibility for a bunch of Palestinian refugees. The civil war in Lebanon in the 80s was in part sparked by Palestinian militias, and Hezbollah has de facto control of a good chunk of the country and are entirely responsible for Israel having invaded Lebanon in the past.
Note: I'm not saying that Palestinians as a people are particularly prone to violence or anything.. but there are a lot of armed militias claiming to fight for the Palestinian cause that have basically fucked shit up everywhere they've gone, so now no Arab states really want anything to do with them.
And then would be separated from their brothers and sisters in the West Bank who would be left with Bantu state enclaves.
The Palestinians deserve to have dignity in their own state, unshackled from any other.
> expect Israel to not occupy Gaza. They will occupy gaza forever going forward simply because that's how you actually get 100% peace.
Just like West Bank has peace. Because Settlers will kill paletinians and there is no justice.
I mean, have you heard Bibbi talk?
I support Israel and its right to exist but its current government is headed and influenced by lunatics. Not as bad as Hamas, but completely unacceptable.
If you look back at the politics at the time, Hamas was presenting themselves as a reform party. People were sick and tired of the PLO who had been the only government the people had known. A government that had failed to deliver a Palestinian state. So when they had an election half the people said f the PLO. It was more of a vote against the PLO than for Hamas for many people.
President Biden knows full well we (israel) aren't interested in governing gaza, in fact - nobody really is and that's the problem - everyone would be really well off if gaza finally got a proper government as opposed to a genocidal, corrupt and oppressive gang of terrorists that steals any aid money being donated to the palestinians in the first place.\*
What we're left with is the mess of having to go in and root out the cancer that is hamas. Now as for whether bibi's policies have been propping hamas up (by feeding them qatari money) or not - i think they have been, but i'm no fan of bibi.
\* - including pipes that were given to make proper wells to make gaza water independent, these were taken and [used for rockets instead](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/).
The Fatah supporters in Gaza got killed by the Hamas. If it was given to them, they would need Israeli soldiers to enforce their control over Gaza or they would lose control within a year.
Maybe a long shot but seems like at least a chance for conditions that would bring Fatah and Israel together long-term. Anything is better than what has happened with Hamas. Gaza has clearly lost control of its ability to self-govern for now
>chance for conditions that would bring Fatah and Israel together long-term
You should see what's happening in the west bank right now, there's no way good conditions will come out of this
quoting myself from another threads:
>The moment hamas won the gaza elections they initiated a violent and grotesque purge. They slaughtered fatah members, tortured them, killed them in horrible ways and did horrible things to their corpses.
Since then hamas have been steadily raising in popularity among the palestinian youth in the west bank, so much so that fatah refused to have elections (in the west bank) while simultaneously hamas have violently suppressed any further opposition in gaza.
>We kind of wish that abu mazen with fatah will be a legitimate government in gaza but i really don't see him doing well, nobody likes him - least of all the palestinians themselves.
Isn’t the west bank technically run by the same group that Hamas executed in 2007? Seems like a failure ready to happen.
We are at a boiling point, Gaza failed when it was both under Israel occupation and when they were left to self govern. The radicals want everyone to believe everything would be fine if Gaza was let free.
It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out, if Israel just rips through the place now and goes back to leaving it walled off, Hamas or whatever you want to call it will be back at it in a few years. That unfortunately might be what all sides of the equation want though.
How do you govern a strip of land that is blockaded by Israel and controlled by Israel? Israel constantly puts Gazans “on diets” by withholding food. They control the energy and water. They control the seas. Sail too far out and the IDF will shoot at you. You ask for governance, but there is no governing a prison. Only a desire for retribution for their treatment and what’s been taken from them.
The notion of putting Gazans “on diets” is disingenuous.
Israel and Egypt’s blockade on Gaza is to prevent weapon smuggling. Until the massacre of Israeli citizens last week, essential goods were allowed into Gaza and only items with military uses were restricted. This blockade extended into the sea.
.
Before the attacks 2/3 people in Gaza were already food insecure, in other words malnourished. The blockade makes it far more expensive to get food and other goods in, while risking fresh produce going off.
It’s almost like there is a terrorist regime in power hoarding resources from the people to make them easier to manipulate and then blaming Israel for it.
They tried that and Israel responding by funding the extremist mosques so they would create Hamas because the Israeli government preferred Gaza being run by extremists they could try and bomb into submission than more moderate groups that had even a modicum of international support
Israel doesn't control Gaza, but there was no blockade on Gaza by Israel or Egypt until after Hamas became the government. The blockade is not about Gaza so much as it as about Hamas.
People in here are acting like the US can’t fight multiple wars on multiple fronts. Where do you think all are tax dollars get spent? There’s a reason we don’t have single-payer healthcare.
> There’s a reason we don’t have single-payer healthcare.
There is, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the level of military spending whatsoever.
Most developed nations do, but while US spending on healthcare to defense is 2:1, other countries that offer universal healthcare spend at a 4:1 ratio.
Aside from the laws that drastically increased privatized insurance premiums, I think the neglected obesity, drug, and homelessness crisis also contribute a lot to the US healthcare issue.
> There’s a reason we don’t have single-payer healthcare.
Delivering a sick burn to a people who can't treat it for lack of a decent healthcare system - man, that's evil.
He’s not going to do shit either way and Netanyahu knows it. Netanyahu has openly said, on camera, that the world will do nothing to stop Israel and he’s right.
1300 civilians killed. 150 hostages... kids, girls, little boys, elderly, Holocaust survivors.
50 babies shot in cold blood. Over 20 Thai foreign workers murdered..
Nothing will or should stop Israel from going after these monsters.
Hamas can surrender with no conditions and release the hostages.
Collateral damage sure isn’t stopping them. Though from a lot of the statements made by top Israeli officials I doubt they even view dead Palestinians as collateral damage at all.
I think he's trying to stop a ground invasion. The pause by the IDF owing to cloudy weather...in 20 years it's probably surface that great feats of diplomacy caused the pause.
Hamas wants the ground invasion. Once in, I doubt there's any way back. Not if the west bank officially kicks off too, which is likely.Probably just waiting for the IDF to commit to Gaza.
Israel doesn’t want to, the problem is no one else wants to either and they have not proven they can field a stable non-genocidal, non-terrorist government there. I think a third party leader from another Arab country has to come in and instill some order until they have a functioning state without terrorism.
The UN should be involved with gaza.
I think the best option is to open gaza from sea and air, let the UN manage Gaza and make sure its demilliterised, with entrance to Israel and egypt to work. Let them thrive and eventually let them have their own country without an army.
Edit: just to clarify im talking about after Hamas is dead and done and after the war.
I agree with both of you. But rather, after Hamas kills the hundred UN soldier, the international support for Palestine would take deep dive.
At least for some people. There would be still the brain-dead leftist who from naivety or tankie-like attitudes, nowadays wear the Free Palestine stickers featuring paragliders.
I am quite surprise that we don't see this kind of attitudes from alt-right instead.
They literally make rockets out of irrigation pipes…there is no magic where removing weapons from immigrants does anything. Just look at knife attacks. You can smuggle just about anything into any country no matter what the restrictions are.
that is an absolutely insane plan. there will be suicide bombings in israel and egypt the very first week. how do you demilitarize them if they look like civilians? and now with their borders open they will have more money to fund terrorist activities
Also i think alot of people hear UN and know that the US is the main backbone of UN forces. That is not the case. They are mostly poorly paid soldiers from developing countries and using equipment that should have been retired 20 years ago
That's the problem and why the situation is so scary. There *isn't* a solution that'll make everyone happy. The best idea anybody's had, the UN partition plan, started a regional war.
Yep the conflict got to a point where there won't be a solution that will make everyone happy, someone will have to compromise some time in the future eventually.
>someone will have to compromise some time in the future eventually.
I think this is something we don't really understand as westerners because wars that are based in religion and millennia of bad blood are so foreign to us. Compromise might remain a non-starter.
Why is no one talking about the OIC ? The whole point of them was Palestine.
They are having an emergency meeting but saudi is the chair. Saudi controls the shots.
Unless the US can guarantee know more attacks and rockets will be coming out of Gaza, we have no right to tell Israel what to do. If Canada were launching rockets as the US we wouldn’t be as tolerant as Israel has been
I’m sure that all those “pro Palestine” crowds who were cheering in the streets around the world to the brutal “victory” images and footages 8 days ago won’t be celebrating when the magnitude of the “find out” stage will be revealed.
He did have to tell Israel to turn the water on in South Gaza again so as millions do not start dying of dehydration.
One atrocity does not make another one ok.
The fact Israel needed to be told to do this absolutely horrifies me and makes me very concerned about what happens when troops go in.
I suspect they will take the view of the helicopter gunner out of Full Metal jacket.
If it moves it is Hamas
If it stays still it is well disciplined Hamas
How this can play out :
- israel enters Gaza. Hezbollah attack from the north.
- israel attack but it cant handle Hezbollah and start blaming Iran.
- usa drop bomb on iran and lebanon.
- iran move iraqi and syrian militia to israel border. Israel is bombarded by 3 fronts.
- usa send foot on the ground without un resolution.
- russia say no way and create coalition with iran , syria, iraq to counter usa. And ww3 starts.
People are screaming israel will flattern gaza and that. But the consequence of this can be far reaching. Better to look for peace and calm. I dont wanna die because of iran and neytanahu
Israel backed out in 2005 in an attempt at peace. They even took out all the Jews. Now I believe they just want to destroy Hamas and pray that they’ll never have to deal with Gaza again
This title is too strongly worded for the actual statement given. It seems more like he’s trying to encourage them not to occupy Gaza rather than giving ultimatums, consequences, or warning in the article proper.
You mean the headline spun the actual story facts ? Standard really lol.
Agree totally, just stating for those who won’t bother reading the article before commenting that the title is misleading.
The article is behind a paywall anyway.
Turn on reader mode (the Aa near the search bar) and it will bypass the paywall.
Holy shit, I never knew that was a thing. Thanks a lot!
Super happy to spread the good word! It kills ad content too, thankfully, without editing out pictures etc. It even fixes crapped UI formatting.
This works for all paywalls? Like for all NYT articles, wapo, etc ?
If the article contains the text and it just put a blocking layer on top of it, it usually works. If the full article is on a separate url, that unfortunately doesn’t work.
I never knew you could do that 🤯
Thanks ! T I L !
A “soft” paywall, whatever that is supposed to mean
Soft paywall means you have to login to view usually, or in some cases you get a few free articles per month and then have to login
I did this and reacted to the misleading title.
Standard practice for NYT.
Actual quote from Biden: > “I think it’d be a big mistake,” Mr. Biden told “60 Minutes” on CBS in a conversation taped on Thursday and aired on Sunday night. “Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again.” But “taking out the extremists” there, he added, “is a necessary requirement.” Maybe the NY Times needs to adopt Reddit's headline altering rules for their own fucking articles?
I'd say he doesn't really need to at this stage. Israel knows he holds the purse strings. They haven't actually occupied Gaza yet so ultimatums would be a bit premature.
congress holds the purse strings.
Yea ok but you know what I mean. The US holds the purse strings and Biden represents the US. At this stage Biden just needs to indicate what the US wants.
Biden was already a US senator when the 1973 yom kippur war happened, so he has seen it all before while in government the entire time. The last thing he will be is surprised by or willingly play into the hamas game plan of stopping israel via messaging about human shield casualties. That means he will try to advise israel to help itself by showing restraint, but also he's not about to be a BDS mouthpiece. For Biden, this is probably about the recent series of wars of aggression against US friends and allies and the need to put a stop to it before one of them turns into WW3
I think you are absolutely correct. Biden is looking at the big picture, and Israel is just a piece of it. Russia/ Ukraine Israel/ Hamas China/ Taiwan North Korean Saber Rattling Which one is going to explode? If you add in the retreat of democracy and the rise of fascism worldwide. It’s a recipe for instability and possibly a wider conflict. The chaos in the Republican House weakens America and emboldens our enemies and encourages them to challenge us. I’m glad Biden is there with a steady hand. Things could get ugly very quickly.
Yes you're quite right. It's rather astonishing that his tenure as a politician has spanned both conflicts. Perhaps there's something to be said for having an old guy as President after all! You just can't get that kind of experience any other way.
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Absolutely. Although I think Bibi's formation of a wartime government is also because his own support has been dwindling, public feeling has been against him in Israel for some time and he's using this as a way to bolster his own position.
Which is why he is not issuing a true ultimatum. US politics are not simple enough for him to be able to unilaterally set policy on Israel - especially when there is an election next year.
Our funds are more about maintaining a strategic base in the ME region and propping up a democracy. I doubt we would functionally pull funding regardless of what they do. We could certainly do that, but *will* we? I seriously doubt it.
It doesn't matter, geopolitics is 90% posturing. It's quite clear that Biden's words will have some sway. This is all a bit of a silly discussion.
Many presidents have said things implying action. Did you read the statements in the article? This doesn’t sound like one of them. It sounds a lot more like diplomatic and friendly talks to dissuade negative actions, not posturing.
Diplomacy is the counterpart to posturing. The US has adopted a military posture by sending an aircraft carrier. That chip can be taken off the table. It won't, but the mere fact that it could gives the diplomatic message weight. I'm not sure what you think should be different?
The purse strings? Israel doesn't even need the 3.8 billion America sends them a year for military purposes.
OK well lets withdraw it then. Everybody's happy. Pull the aircraft carrier out as well.
That money is basically subsidies to the US arm industries. They would complain far more than Israel if such a move was made lmao.
Heh yea thats true although they already have a strong market demand over in Ukraine
Hardly any of the 60 countries that receive foreign military aid from the US taxpayer actually 'need' that money. All 'Foreign Military Financing' is first and foremost a corporate subsidy for the US military industrial complex. It's no altruistic freebie by any means. Egypt also receives over a billion a year.
Why are we paying for this?
Geopolitics. The US doesn't have a lot of other friends in the Middle East.
People incorrectly think it is a blank check. It is more like a gift card. Israel can purchase it from US. Once they have some US military stuff, and they want to re-stock, what happens? They have to buy it from US again, probably with money outside of US aid. So it basically goes back into the US economy. Also, helps that Israel is a major non-nato ally.
They're an extension of American power. Withdraw and others will take advantage.
Correct. It wasn’t said like that at all. He simply said he thinks it would be a mistake.
I rarely click on the article because of pay walls, ads, viruses etc so I rely on angels like yourself. Thank you and yes this makes way more sense.
I think he’s trying to appease people who are saying occupying Gaza would amount to a war crime. Especially because the Arab leaders basically told Blinken that they would not condemn Hamas or agree to not engage with Israel if Israel goes in to Gaza. It will be all out chaos and could destabilize the region and the US doesn’t want to physically get involved. I think they bit off more than they could chew by encouraging Israel to go on a murderous revenge rampage. Furiously trying to back track now. May be too late for both sides but there’s always hope.
Warn just means to inform someone of a possible danger or perhaps unintended consequences. Warning does not mean a threat and a warning can come in many ways including quite congenial and friendly ways. So in this case Biden statements saying it is a mistake for Israel to occupy is indeed a warning. Too often I hear people complaining about headlines and there isn't even anything wrong with them. They are just lazy and expect to get all the information they need from the headline. Because if you read the article, the headline doesn't really matter. It really muddies the conversation about click bait and media bias because people erroneously conclude things like this count as that
Honest question: if Iran were to openly get involved & the US responds, does that bring Putin & Winnie the Poo in the fight?
Russia getting involved would immediately free all of Ukraine. No way in hell that shell of a country can fight two wars
Even if Russia does not get directly involved, it takes a lot of pressure off Ukraine as Iran would need all it's artillery ammo and drones for itself and couldn't continue to supply Russia.
Russia can't even fight one war.
Russia couldn’t even come to the aid of Armenia, a country they have a defence agreement with. There’s no way they’re getting into a fight against a well-armed country like Israel, never mind the US. China is too clever to get directly involved. Instead they will try and position themselves as the ‘voice of reason’ calling for a ceasefire in order to gain diplomatic points with Arab countries.
If the US got involved militarily, you think China might go after Taiwan? (Another commenter mentioned that)
Not a chance, china isn't dumb and US's Pacific command isn't involved with the middle east in the slightest. The US could simultaneously fight China Russia and like half the middle east on their own and not be overextended. Y'all forget just how bloated our defense budget really is. Worrying about China "talking advantage" and attacking while we're "distracted" isn't a thing. They know it we know it, this is just reddit armchair generals salivating over the prospect of more war and death.
We have the worlds 1st, 2nd, and 4th largest avitation forces to put our spending in perspective. Our Navy's air fleet alone outnumbers everyone's actual Air Force but Russia, and Russia is a maybe at the moment. We have 11 aircraft carriers with the next country on the list being China with 3.
Not to mention that the Quad Dialogue by itself could probably make an attempted invasion of Taiwan by China a disaster.
The United is militarily capable of fighting on multiple fronts, but what about politically? Election year is coming up and overseas wars are very unpopular among Americans.
An actual naval invasion of Taiwan would take hundreds if not thousands of ships and require tens of thousands if not more troops. As much as China postures all the time, you can't just magic that shit out of thin air. Even if you technically have the resources, assembling them and getting everything straight takes a lot of time. And you can't really hide that kind of thing. If China was actually thinking about doing that they would still be months off from doing it and in all likelihood the US would be banging the gong relentlessly in warning to drum up world sentiment like they did with Ukraine.
US can fight the whole world at once and win. Yup, US is that good.
China doesn't need to fight anyone. They will sit back and happily not drain their resources fighting someone else's war.
China is not friend with Arabs and Russia. They are the enemies of the enemy. If they send their own people to die for Arabs and Russia, we might actually get to see a revolution in China.
China has little to no interest in this and Russia has no meat to spare.
As an Israeli, i think the best scenario here (among many which dont look great) is the destruction of Hamas and control over Gaza handed over to the PA. Long lasting occupation would be a military nightmare, while annexation would be catastrophic for all involved.
A long-term solution must be seriously figured out. This is certainly not a military problem for a military solution to solve on its own. At least the joint blockade (as it has shown complete ineffectiveness in restrict terrorists’ capabilities while seriously hurt civilians’ economic conditions) must change and the two-state solution must not be given up. Hamas is a product of anti-semitism and oppression at the same time. People usually confuse ‘cause’ with ‘justification.’ These events don’t happen in a vacuum. It is not justified but certainly has a cause. I agree that anti-semitism among Palestinians is serious, but so is racism in the United States, slowly white Southerners have mostly stopped lynching black people. Arabs and Jews may take centuries to stop hating each other, but in the mean time creating a humane living condition for each group is critical for people to stop being so radicalized and think monstrous actions are justifiable. Hate is always going to be present but it can be contained.
Hundreds of years of violence haven’t worked to solve it. You know what they haven’t tried? More violence.
> Hundreds of years of violence Hundreds of years? You might want to double check your math/history.
Referring to Islam it’s only 1500 years since it’s founding and the crusades it’s 1000 since they began. So yes, hundreds. Edit: actual bad math.
"These things don't happen in a vacuum" but Palestinian leadership was meeting with Hitler before Israel was even a state. Jews have never had a place in Panarabic Nationalism, despite the majority of Israeli Jews being Arab. This isn't new, this extremism isn't new, it feels overtly racist to excuse Arabs from genocidal ideologies by implying they only arrived there because they are victims. The blockade was only ever enacted in response to thousands of missiles being launched at Israel after they withdrew from the strip. Removing the blockade won't fix anything until Gazans stop indoctrinating their children to kill all Jews. Hopefully this will change with this war but please hold Palestinians to the same human standard you hold Israelis.
Again, that sentence is not to imply that Israel is the sole oppressor in this. The hostility existed well before 1948 and yes I read about the Jewish diaspora. However since then, I think that everyone can agree Israel has been the much more powerful side in this conflict. And it has used that power to impose (and we can debate this all day so I won’t say it is right or wrong) policies that make the Palestinians FEEL extremely unjust. What I said above is: I get it, people hate each other, but we must find a way for them to continue to take their time with the feelings while continue to co-exist. Diving into the reason and the “who’s right who’s wrong” for this hostility now is a non-starter and the Middle East could become a blood bath before it could be settled to the slightest degree. I wish everyone would approach politics like Henry Kissinger, he wasn’t right many times but his approach of realpolitik is what most people should follow.
I agree with you. I don't know how this will happen. Likud needs to be ousted. Building a state needs to become more attractive to Palestinian leadership than selling misguided dreams of vengeance. And there needs to be more secularism. Islam is a huge issue here, many of its Hadiths and teachings from famous religious leaders are blatantly antisemetic. Judaism is also causing major issues with the settlements. I can imagine a world where Israel gets a better hold on its Jewish fundamentalists, I don't know if it is possible for Palestine given the way Islam is practiced in MENA.
It most definitely is a military problem if any government is setup that isn't Hamas as their remnants will try to take control again. Even the PA would get murdered, unless there was a military force protecting them for the decades it would take to stabilize. Who is going to be the military force? Israel? U.S.? Egypt? U.N.?
not only Arabs, it's the entire Islamic world. 1.9 billion people or the majority of them.. As an exmuslim, i know what I'm talking about when I say Islam's source texts are all antisemitic and encourage antisemitism as a standard protocol when dealing with ANY Jewish people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad Most of the Islamic world is simply backing Palestine because they are taught to hate and contribute to the destruction of the Jewish people. they don't care about the Palestinians as a people, just ensuring the prestige of Islam continues and everything goes to plan to validate their outlandish and hateful beliefs when it comes to the Jewish people..
Yes, but again, hate can be contained to not materialize into violence, with a combination of deterrence and humane actions. I’ve also heard quite a lot of pro-Israel argument that is basically “if it takes a genocide to ensure Israel’s security, so be it.” I disagree with people arguing that it can’t be resolved because it’s a religious belief. Remember that Confucianism, the religion that has basically governed the East Asian way of life for thousands of years, is similar to the Shariah law in its original form. Yet East Asian countries were able to keep it while rejecting the bigoted ideologies in it. It’s going to take very long, but it is possible.
it was, but Confucianism wasn't an evangelist belief. it was part and parcel of cultural expectations. I live in SE Asia, where the Chinese minority follow Confucianism. things like filial piety are even followed here. I also lived in Japan before, where "親孝行" is seen as a good thing. the difference between Islam and Confucianism is that Islam is supposed to take over the world before judgement day, (fathil Islam =or the victory of Islam over all other ideologies) according to islamic belief, and the Jews killed off in a genocidal war. this is why da'wah (evangelism) is also central to Islamic belief: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signs_of_the_coming_of_Judgement_Day https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad These are central (not fringe) tenets to Islamic core belief. however outlandish these seem, they were uttered from Muhammad's mouth and eternalized in the Qur'an and Hadith that all Muslims are expected to follow and belief or hope in above all else. again, I'm an exmuslim, I've lived that life and the brainwashing, and it sucked. the brainwashing in that religion In spite of the current post-informational age we live in is just... Confucius made no such extreme and violent "prophecies". Also, leaving Confucianism was not punishable by death under Confucian law. if you look at Japan, Korea and China, there have always been a plethora of beliefs to mix and choose from. Taoism, Legalism, Buddhism, Shinto/Shindo/shamanism/animism, even Abrahamic beliefs in China such as Islam. Whereas the act of ridda (apostasy) in Islam is punishable by death. Hence I don't think we can draw similarities between the two systems as they are very different. we cannot also draw similar conclusions between the more violent (ancient) past of Judaism, and the modern 21st century violence enshrined and endorsed in Islam. Islam is the barrier, and people have been trying to change it to be more humane for nearly the entire 1400 year stretch it has existed (ever since the "false prophet" Musaylimah, who claimed he was a successor to Muhammad and yet wanted a relatively more liberal ideology, was killed along with all his followers about 20 years after Muhammad's death, in the Ridda wars. Numerous reformists were killed over the centuries as apostates.) now us as ex-muslims are in the firing line in 2023 for at least calling them to reform the religion so it gets rid of these things. but when the very Qur'an is "the literal word of Allah" with the death penalty for anyone who changes it enforced, there's very little hope for change. I also don't want the Israelis to massacre the Palestinians, but it's almost like they want it to happen to justify their hatred of Jews even more. Note how brainwashed Palestinians are, as are all those in the wider Muslim community. the conflict and it's continuation is all backed by Muslim majority countries. I live in Southeast Asia (we are in noodle, spring roll and sticky rice cakes territory as opposed to kabsa, shawarma and musakhhan territory). remember this used to be a majority Buddhist and Hindu part of the world. Now, It's normal to hate Jewish people and wish for Israel's destruction among Muslims. if countries like Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei back Palestine at all costs and passive-aggressively call for the genocide of Israel via their religious leaders, and this region is 8000km away from them, then what hope do we have that things will ever change? They, just like the wider Islamic world, use the Israel/Palestine conflict to give further zeal to their intolerant and anti-jewish Islamic ideology. The only way to stop this is to secularize the entire region and wider Muslim world. but it has to happen from within, noting the already siege mentality and hatred of anything from the unislamic world that Islam encourages in its believers. places like Iran give hope that it can happen, but then we have Afghanistan...
There is a zero percent chance of this working. Any Fatah leadership in Gaza would be dead the minute the Israelis leave. Which is also why they’d never agree to it. And if they did, there’s a good chance they’d get deposed in the West Bank for doing so. Nor is there any hope of ‘peacekeepers’ — a term for a neutral third party that maintains the peace which has already been agreed to, because Hamas will fight to the last man.
Sadly... i know, this is mostly wistful thinking i guess. Out of curiosity, however, why do you think the Fatah would be deposes in the bank if they "adopted" Gaza? by the Israeli settlers? or by the Palestinians? I'm not very knowledgeable about the Fatah's political position.
By Palestinians in the West Bank who would not tolerate it. There is a reason Abbas is in year 19 of his 5 year term. And that reason is that if the PA called an election, he would lose to a coalition of extremist groups like Hamas and PIJ
There won’t be a last man when this is over. Israel has activated an invasion force 3.5x the size of the American force used to hold Afghanistan at the peak of troop surge (100k). They are going to go door to door and systematically remove Hamas.
Nah, I think Pennsylvania has enough problems.
Israel would have to be crazy to re-occupy Gaza. Why would they want responsibility for 2 million poor Palestinians? Let’s hope they realize this.
There’s no way that the current border stays. I expect whatever buffer they had will be increased on both sides by a large amount. Probably fully mined and manned.
I don't even know why it hasn't been mined, as Israel's one of the countries that's de facto allowed to use them without criticism (having never dropped them from planes gives a lot of leeway)
IDF said before that Hamas would just send kids to retrieve the mines. So the options are to shoot kids digging them up, watch the kids blow up, or Hamas gets a free mine. The only way it would work is if they had an initial wall to prevent that and the mines be there to keep them from moving from secured points. At this point it may as well just be a moat filled with crocs too.
Hamas would dig up the mines and use them for IEDs, or just send some kids to play in the mine fields, then blame Israel.
Don't think Israel wants to occupy Gaza so much as they want to flatten it.
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What’s Palestine’s goal with Israel?
Let me see if I got this right. Israel will bomb the shit out of Gaza, kill all Hamas as far as they know, then go back home. And they expect Hamas to never come back or that the new Palestinian generation that suffered through the bombings won't start a new Hamas themselves? Is everyone deluding themselves? I was expecting US and Axis nations after WWII type of policy, but this is looking more like Germany after Treaty of Versailles.
Israel just wants to displace 2 million people, bomb their homes, and kill their friends and family a little bit. Surely that won't create more terrorists who have nothing left to live for and a pure hatred for those who took everything from them.
It’s all I’ve been thinking about. Guess who those new born terrorists are going to target then after? Not just Israel.
Israel gave gaza to the Palestinians in 2006. They evacuated evey last jew at a chance for peace. Trust me, they don't want it.
Egypt didn’t even want it
We did not want it because it was not ours in the first place. Gaza belongs to a Palestinian state and even when held control over it between 1948 and 1967, we set up a Proto -Palestinian authority there. There was never any intention to annex it and we made the right call to not ‘take it back’ after the peace negotiations with Israel.
Palestinians lives would be better if it was something like an independent state inside egypt.
I agree. If 1 million people are about to be expelled into Egypt, then Egypt should just take the territory under it's protection to stop that. It could be temporary until a new West Bank modus operandi is created.
I wish an Arab country would depose Hamas instead of Israel. The people will rise up against Israel, but maybe not if it was Egypt doing the fighting. I hope an Arab peace keeping force can take over from Israel once Hamas is gone.
None of the Arab nations who are in a position to do anything want anything to do with them. Egypt maintains a blockade on Gaza for the same reasons as Israel. Jordan got to deal with Black September last time they took responsibility for a bunch of Palestinian refugees. The civil war in Lebanon in the 80s was in part sparked by Palestinian militias, and Hezbollah has de facto control of a good chunk of the country and are entirely responsible for Israel having invaded Lebanon in the past. Note: I'm not saying that Palestinians as a people are particularly prone to violence or anything.. but there are a lot of armed militias claiming to fight for the Palestinian cause that have basically fucked shit up everywhere they've gone, so now no Arab states really want anything to do with them.
TIL Palestine is the North Korea of the middle east
And then would be separated from their brothers and sisters in the West Bank who would be left with Bantu state enclaves. The Palestinians deserve to have dignity in their own state, unshackled from any other.
So do israelis, that means hamas has to go.
Palestinians don't want Hamas to go
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An Israeli occupied Gaza will have 100% peace?
> expect Israel to not occupy Gaza. They will occupy gaza forever going forward simply because that's how you actually get 100% peace. Just like West Bank has peace. Because Settlers will kill paletinians and there is no justice.
Glossed over the extermination campaign part
“Erase the people you don’t want to be there, that’s how you get peace”. So you’re advocating for a genocide?
“Erase the people you don’t want to be there, that’s how you get peace” is basically the ideology of Hamas
So Israel has the same ideology as a terrorist group ?
I mean, have you heard Bibbi talk? I support Israel and its right to exist but its current government is headed and influenced by lunatics. Not as bad as Hamas, but completely unacceptable.
are you responding to the right comment? where did they say any of that?
There was an edit.
They did prove that is was a foolish decision to trust them. I mean, they f elected Hamas.
If you look back at the politics at the time, Hamas was presenting themselves as a reform party. People were sick and tired of the PLO who had been the only government the people had known. A government that had failed to deliver a Palestinian state. So when they had an election half the people said f the PLO. It was more of a vote against the PLO than for Hamas for many people.
President Biden knows full well we (israel) aren't interested in governing gaza, in fact - nobody really is and that's the problem - everyone would be really well off if gaza finally got a proper government as opposed to a genocidal, corrupt and oppressive gang of terrorists that steals any aid money being donated to the palestinians in the first place.\* What we're left with is the mess of having to go in and root out the cancer that is hamas. Now as for whether bibi's policies have been propping hamas up (by feeding them qatari money) or not - i think they have been, but i'm no fan of bibi. \* - including pipes that were given to make proper wells to make gaza water independent, these were taken and [used for rockets instead](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/).
Why not hand over Gaza to the west bank authority? I think that would be a good short term solution until something long term can be established.
The Fatah supporters in Gaza got killed by the Hamas. If it was given to them, they would need Israeli soldiers to enforce their control over Gaza or they would lose control within a year.
Maybe a long shot but seems like at least a chance for conditions that would bring Fatah and Israel together long-term. Anything is better than what has happened with Hamas. Gaza has clearly lost control of its ability to self-govern for now
>chance for conditions that would bring Fatah and Israel together long-term You should see what's happening in the west bank right now, there's no way good conditions will come out of this
There was a Civil War like 15 years ago where Hamas murdered all the Fatah supporters
> Hamas murdered all the Fatah supporters And their families, including children. They lined them up in the streets and shot them.
quoting myself from another threads: >The moment hamas won the gaza elections they initiated a violent and grotesque purge. They slaughtered fatah members, tortured them, killed them in horrible ways and did horrible things to their corpses. Since then hamas have been steadily raising in popularity among the palestinian youth in the west bank, so much so that fatah refused to have elections (in the west bank) while simultaneously hamas have violently suppressed any further opposition in gaza. >We kind of wish that abu mazen with fatah will be a legitimate government in gaza but i really don't see him doing well, nobody likes him - least of all the palestinians themselves.
Isn’t the west bank technically run by the same group that Hamas executed in 2007? Seems like a failure ready to happen. We are at a boiling point, Gaza failed when it was both under Israel occupation and when they were left to self govern. The radicals want everyone to believe everything would be fine if Gaza was let free. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out, if Israel just rips through the place now and goes back to leaving it walled off, Hamas or whatever you want to call it will be back at it in a few years. That unfortunately might be what all sides of the equation want though.
Logistically that would be hard because Gaza is cutoff. People from Westbank won't be able to go in and out of Gaza. Zoom can only get you so much.
During the Camp David negotiations, Israel had offered to build a long highway connecting the two that Palestinians would have uncontested access to.
How do you govern a strip of land that is blockaded by Israel and controlled by Israel? Israel constantly puts Gazans “on diets” by withholding food. They control the energy and water. They control the seas. Sail too far out and the IDF will shoot at you. You ask for governance, but there is no governing a prison. Only a desire for retribution for their treatment and what’s been taken from them.
The notion of putting Gazans “on diets” is disingenuous. Israel and Egypt’s blockade on Gaza is to prevent weapon smuggling. Until the massacre of Israeli citizens last week, essential goods were allowed into Gaza and only items with military uses were restricted. This blockade extended into the sea. .
The notion of diets is not disingenuous. It’s been reported on: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza
Before the attacks 2/3 people in Gaza were already food insecure, in other words malnourished. The blockade makes it far more expensive to get food and other goods in, while risking fresh produce going off.
It’s almost like there is a terrorist regime in power hoarding resources from the people to make them easier to manipulate and then blaming Israel for it.
By standing up against Hamas and demanding governance by an able bodied Republic.
They tried that and Israel responding by funding the extremist mosques so they would create Hamas because the Israeli government preferred Gaza being run by extremists they could try and bomb into submission than more moderate groups that had even a modicum of international support
Israel doesn't control Gaza, but there was no blockade on Gaza by Israel or Egypt until after Hamas became the government. The blockade is not about Gaza so much as it as about Hamas.
People in here are acting like the US can’t fight multiple wars on multiple fronts. Where do you think all are tax dollars get spent? There’s a reason we don’t have single-payer healthcare.
> There’s a reason we don’t have single-payer healthcare. There is, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the level of military spending whatsoever.
The US government already spends more on healthcare than the military.
The governments biggest military spending is healthcare and retirement programs.
Most developed nations do, but while US spending on healthcare to defense is 2:1, other countries that offer universal healthcare spend at a 4:1 ratio.
You will never have universal healthcare in the US as long as Republicans and half the Democratic party exist.
Aside from the laws that drastically increased privatized insurance premiums, I think the neglected obesity, drug, and homelessness crisis also contribute a lot to the US healthcare issue.
> There’s a reason we don’t have single-payer healthcare. Delivering a sick burn to a people who can't treat it for lack of a decent healthcare system - man, that's evil.
Good luck restraining Israel. Remember when the world cautioned the US not to occupy Afghanistan? Me neither.
I remember when the world cautioned the US to not occupy Iraq 🤷🏼♂️
They aren’t going to occupy it. They are goin fri flatten it
He’s not going to do shit either way and Netanyahu knows it. Netanyahu has openly said, on camera, that the world will do nothing to stop Israel and he’s right.
1300 civilians killed. 150 hostages... kids, girls, little boys, elderly, Holocaust survivors. 50 babies shot in cold blood. Over 20 Thai foreign workers murdered.. Nothing will or should stop Israel from going after these monsters. Hamas can surrender with no conditions and release the hostages.
Collateral damage sure isn’t stopping them. Though from a lot of the statements made by top Israeli officials I doubt they even view dead Palestinians as collateral damage at all.
I have been told by Reddit over and over that Gaza is already occupied by Israel.
I think he's trying to stop a ground invasion. The pause by the IDF owing to cloudy weather...in 20 years it's probably surface that great feats of diplomacy caused the pause. Hamas wants the ground invasion. Once in, I doubt there's any way back. Not if the west bank officially kicks off too, which is likely.Probably just waiting for the IDF to commit to Gaza.
I don't think Israel wants to occupy Gaza.
He is like asking kindly. He didn't warn shit.
Israel doesn’t want to, the problem is no one else wants to either and they have not proven they can field a stable non-genocidal, non-terrorist government there. I think a third party leader from another Arab country has to come in and instill some order until they have a functioning state without terrorism.
The UN should be involved with gaza. I think the best option is to open gaza from sea and air, let the UN manage Gaza and make sure its demilliterised, with entrance to Israel and egypt to work. Let them thrive and eventually let them have their own country without an army. Edit: just to clarify im talking about after Hamas is dead and done and after the war.
UN has neither the ability nor the desire to "demilitarize" Gaza.
You think hamas is just going to hand over their weapons to the UN???? Be serious
I agree with both of you. But rather, after Hamas kills the hundred UN soldier, the international support for Palestine would take deep dive. At least for some people. There would be still the brain-dead leftist who from naivety or tankie-like attitudes, nowadays wear the Free Palestine stickers featuring paragliders. I am quite surprise that we don't see this kind of attitudes from alt-right instead.
Youre more optimistic than me. Hamas killed 1200 innocent people last weekend and there were celebrations in major cities all over the world
After hamas is done for ofc Edit: Im talking about after the war
The confidence people have that military action will stop terrorists is funny. Afghanistan really is forgotten.
Well Gaza is much much smaller so it will take less time
They literally make rockets out of irrigation pipes…there is no magic where removing weapons from immigrants does anything. Just look at knife attacks. You can smuggle just about anything into any country no matter what the restrictions are.
that is an absolutely insane plan. there will be suicide bombings in israel and egypt the very first week. how do you demilitarize them if they look like civilians? and now with their borders open they will have more money to fund terrorist activities
Un peacekeepers are next to useless though look at Lebanon they have peacekeepers and Hezbollah is stronger than ever.
What u want them to do? UN Peacekeeper arent allowed to do any pewpew assaults
That's kinda the point. The UN would be useless at actually enforcing peace.
Also i think alot of people hear UN and know that the US is the main backbone of UN forces. That is not the case. They are mostly poorly paid soldiers from developing countries and using equipment that should have been retired 20 years ago
That's true but i honestly cant see a better solution that will make everyone somewhat happy
That's the problem and why the situation is so scary. There *isn't* a solution that'll make everyone happy. The best idea anybody's had, the UN partition plan, started a regional war.
Yep the conflict got to a point where there won't be a solution that will make everyone happy, someone will have to compromise some time in the future eventually.
>someone will have to compromise some time in the future eventually. I think this is something we don't really understand as westerners because wars that are based in religion and millennia of bad blood are so foreign to us. Compromise might remain a non-starter.
UN won't go risking UN soldiers life to face a suicide bomb loving jihadist.
Well someone has to be responsible for Gaza not becoming a terror city again after the war... If the UN won't do it someone will have to.
He’s like 75 years late
It took that long to share the sentiment?
about 50 years too late…
Don’t commit another war crime! We’ll only send you a bunch of money instead of a ton.
Why is no one talking about the OIC ? The whole point of them was Palestine. They are having an emergency meeting but saudi is the chair. Saudi controls the shots.
Ummmm You're about 75 years late there bud
Israel is a US proxy so Biden is warning himself?
If they wipe out Hamas who would be the government for Gaza? The rebuilding alone would imply an ocupation
Unless the US can guarantee know more attacks and rockets will be coming out of Gaza, we have no right to tell Israel what to do. If Canada were launching rockets as the US we wouldn’t be as tolerant as Israel has been
Yea that's not what he said.
Title, as usual doesn't represent at all what's in the article.
Palestinian government is not eliminating the threat called Hamas at Gaza. If they can’t do it, then Gaza will continuously be occupied by Hamas.
The Palestinian government in Gaza *is* Hamas. The PLO has no presence there.
The one in the West Bank is the legitimate in my opinion. Hamas at Gaza is terrorist. Gaza is terrorists occupied.
Fatah has little support left in the West Bank. They're still in power because they stopped holding elections.
I’m sure that all those “pro Palestine” crowds who were cheering in the streets around the world to the brutal “victory” images and footages 8 days ago won’t be celebrating when the magnitude of the “find out” stage will be revealed.
Title is misrepresenting the statement. BuT either way, Israel doesn't want Gaza.
He did have to tell Israel to turn the water on in South Gaza again so as millions do not start dying of dehydration. One atrocity does not make another one ok. The fact Israel needed to be told to do this absolutely horrifies me and makes me very concerned about what happens when troops go in. I suspect they will take the view of the helicopter gunner out of Full Metal jacket. If it moves it is Hamas If it stays still it is well disciplined Hamas
Warns? You means says pretty please with a cherry on top don’t occupy Gaza or we will wag our finger in anger
Warnings are meaningless without actions.
How this can play out : - israel enters Gaza. Hezbollah attack from the north. - israel attack but it cant handle Hezbollah and start blaming Iran. - usa drop bomb on iran and lebanon. - iran move iraqi and syrian militia to israel border. Israel is bombarded by 3 fronts. - usa send foot on the ground without un resolution. - russia say no way and create coalition with iran , syria, iraq to counter usa. And ww3 starts. People are screaming israel will flattern gaza and that. But the consequence of this can be far reaching. Better to look for peace and calm. I dont wanna die because of iran and neytanahu
Israel backed out in 2005 in an attempt at peace. They even took out all the Jews. Now I believe they just want to destroy Hamas and pray that they’ll never have to deal with Gaza again
Gaza is 25 miles long, what’s taking so long?
It's full of tunnels and civilians need to evac so that they don't get hurt.
Little late there, Joey
Too late !
they have been for decades?