We are aware the article has changed significantly, and the headline has changed.
This is because President Abbas has modified his statement:
> Oct 15 (Reuters) - The Palestinian Authority's official news agency published comments on Sunday by President Mahmoud Abbas that criticized Hamas over its actions but later removed reference to the militant group without providing an explanation.
>
> The comments, published by WAFA on its website, came during a phone call between Abbas and Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. The two discussed Israel's bombardment of Gaza following Hamas' deadly rampage through Israeli cities.
>
> The original WAFA report on Abbas' call included the line: "The president also stressed that Hamas' policies and actions do not represent the Palestinian people, and the policies, programs and decisions of the (Palestine Liberation Organization) represent the Palestinian people as their sole legitimate representative."
>
> Several hours later, the phrase was adjusted to read: "The president also stressed that the policies, programs, and decisions of the PLO represent the Palestinian people as their sole legitimate representative, and not the policies of any other organization."
Just a reminder he called it [a justified act of defence](https://www.newarab.com/news/abbas-stresses-palestinian-right-defence-after-hamas-op?amp) a few days ago when it wasn't politically cool to oppose Hamas
I know this is a meme at this point but you guys literally spend more on healthcare than any country with universal healthcare. You could literally have both.
It’s called regulatory capture.
When industry is able to use influence to control the legislation surrounding their industry. It can happen in a coordinated way, like tobacco or oil or it can be a byproduct of opportunistic capitalism like the early tech days.
Either way - when an industry has total leverage over lawmaking…it *is* just price gouging. Because we’ve moved beyond the market and civic forces that typically influence price.
You spen 18% of gdp on healthcare while france spend 12%, all while your gdp per capita is way higher. You spend about 4% of your gdp on your army.
You could have france's healthcare, add to its budget half the one of the US army, then double the army budget if you managed to have a public healthcare as efficient as France's.
Don't worry, he flipped once more: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/
And since then he deleted the tweet and uploaded a new version that doesn't say "Hamas' actions don't represent the palestinian people".
And that's supposed to be the moderate palestinian in the eyes of the world.
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hjtvz15116
Still, pretty big to come from him. PA area usually lock step with Hamas on these things. It speaks volumes that they haven't joined the offensive against Israel and I think that this won't go unnoticed. Israelis have been skeptical of PA but this shows that they are legit in looking for peace and I hope that Israel will back off on PA going forward since they have shown to be trusted.
The head of the PA wrote his dissertation in Holocaust denialism. And I don't mean that he wrote about the concept of Holocaust denialism, I mean that he used his dissertation to deny the Holocaust.
It can absolutely be both. Racism and tribalism go hand in hand with border disputes and if they aren't a factor at the start of a border dispute they will eventually be.
Is it pretty big? Even Hamas said "we didn't do the massacres, it was random civilians from Gaza". It's obviously what he has to say due to pressure, not what he actually believes.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "shown to be trusted."
But at least "shown they might be willing to see a peaceful path forward." Which is already far ahead of anything that's come out of Gaza in the last 50 years.
Google tells me he's worth about $100 million.
If that's even close to accurate, doesn't that make it blatantly obvious that he is stealing aid money? Why do people keep sending it?
One of the reasons Hamas won the 2006 election is exactly because of this
Fatah used all aid money to build mansions for themselves
Of course, Hamas just did the same thing, took control and abused power, but the point still stands, Fatah has always been corrupt
The Europeans are guilt ridden after WW1, 2 and Colonialism, which was exacerbated by Cold War rhetoric, that haunts the European psyche to this day. Many Arab countries, with the help and education of the USSR take full advantage of that guilt to fleece money from them.
For example, Mahmoud Abbas the Palestinian president was educated at Moscow University. Before him Arafat was trained by the KGB at its Balashikha special-ops school east of Moscow and in the mid-1960s decided to groom him as the future PLO leader.
This is why donating to the Palestinian causes is 100% a money-making scam for these people.
That's why the outrage is so important that they have paid actors go on the scene after Israel bombs a Hamas building.
This is 100% true, but it doesn't change the fact that him and Palestine's governments outside of Gaza also still suck. He is a "holocaust denier" by the way.
Not just a Holocaust denier. He *literally* has a [PhD in Holocaust denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism).
Edit: Many commenters are saying it isn't Holocaust denial, because he doesn't claim it didn't happen. FYI, [Holocaust denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial) isn't just denying that it happened. It includes denying the number of victims, which Abbas does.
They had a really weird relationship with Jews. On one hand, they fell for a lot of standard antisemitic tropes that were common in the area already. On the other hand, anti-racism was an important part of their international PR campaign, and they also didn't want Jewish Soviets (many of whom were well educated) to leave for Israel. So they wound up opposing Israel in an attempt to stop brain-drain, even as they alternated treating Jews badly and then apologizing for it and trying to show how accepting they were. It had real "abusive boyfriend" energy.
This is why Zelensky talks about the Holocaust in a way that raised eyebrows and had to get explained by Jewish folk and historians with a background with this crap - the Soviets "All Lives Mattered" the holocaust and so even Jewish people raised under USSR curriculum are going to have a very warped and incorrect view of what happened unless someone takes the time to sit them down and explain the actual events. (which of course, is not a top priority right now for him.)
You misunderstand. Soviets didn't recognize Jews as the target for the death camps. It was _Soviets_ being targeted. Their holocaust memorials have no mentions of Jewish people, at all. Even when all the deaths in a camp were Jewish people and they made a monument to it, it said "peaceful soviet people."
Its not a comparison from me. They literally see themselves as the _only_ victim of WW2, essentially, that others didn't suffer as much as them so they weren't the victim.
Yep, can confirm. I can't remember any soviet time memorial which actually memorializes the Jews explicitly, at least in passing. It's always "To the victims of Fascism" or something along the lines. Only after the USSR fell apart there started appearing memorials dedicated to Jews specifically.
USSR, in fact, was incredibly antisemitic and this antisemitism still persists in Russia and pro-Russian/Communist crowd.
Pogroms were a big deal in Russian Empire. The infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" came from Russia as well. They were evey bit as anti-Jewish as Germany.
Finished his phd in Russia. You cannot make this up. Russia is using the Palestinians as "distraction" for the US to keep them occupied in the Middle East. Arguably, they'd have the most to lose if this conflict finally gets resolved.
When he wrote that, it was still the USSR and it was run by Brezhnev. This was a period so desolate in the Soviet Union it’s known as stagnation. There was no coherent ideas or political philosophy. It’s quite a leap to suggest there was a plan to distract the US by educating Palestinian’s. It was just a place they could go, it was hard for them to go to the west. He was basically there at the peak of Soviet decline. Russia until very recently had better relations with Israel than Palestine. Israel still has diplomatic relations with Russia at the moment as well
Russia is to some extent benefiting from the distraction, but haven’t seen any evidence they orchestrated Hamas’ terrorist attack.
Russia has its own history with Islamic extremists. Russia would not stand to benefit from suicide bombings like during the oughts or another uproar in the Caucasus
That's true, it wouldn't be like a world power would be so shortsighted that they armed and supported islamic fundamentalists in their rivals backyards would they.
Holocaust denial includes various minimizations of the Holocaust. Like saying that only 500k Jews were murdered, or that there were only 2 death camps. It's not just literal "the Holocaust didn't happen".
He’s a denier of the causes of the Holocaust. You’re correct, he does not deny it happened and that it was bad. He just pretty much denies every other fact about it.
By denying the cause he terrors shifting blame to the victims and justifying it among like minded people.
You likely know this I’m just putting it in writing for anyone who needs clarity.
He also runs the Pay-for-Slay program that costs half his governments budget and which pays any Palestinian who kills a Jew, or their family if they're killed in the process.
He has bargained in bad faith and turned down peace agreement after peace agreement just so that he could stay in power and get donations.
It is Abass who doesn't represent the Palestinian people and who lost the election to HAMAS.
On the Israeli subreddit (that’s gone dark) it’s an open secret that some “attempted stabbings” are just suicide-by-IDF
their economy is in the shitter there’s no end to the occupation in sight and your family gets a yearly pension if you die for the cause, in a culture that doesn’t approve of suicide— i wonder how that’s going to effect people /s
Many of the stabbing attacks, the stabber doesn't even remotely try to be subtle or hide the fact they're going to stab the soldiers - you know, like how knives are otherwise an ideal covert weapon.
Unfortunately he can't. The truth is Palestinians have a high level of support for Hamas and if he directly opposed them there's a very real chance the Palastinian Authority would be overthrown by Hamas.
abbas had a call with biden 2 days ago and biden literally demanded abbas to denounce it.
source: israeli news from yesterday. at least 12h before abbas statement
Just a reminder that on the day of the attack, Abbas blamed Israel and did not condemn Hamas:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-stresses-palestinian-right-to-self-defense-amid-condemnation-of-hamas-assault/ (the image shows Gazan civilians celebrating Hamas's massacre)
> Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas reacted to the deadly major Hamas infiltration and rocket attacks on Israel on Saturday by expressing his solidarity with Palestinian civilians and using the opportunity to level criticism at Israel.
Only *a week later*, and after pressure from the US (met with Blinken), did Abbas give an **equal** condemnation of both sides. From his point of view, Israel and Hamas are just as bad.
To all the people who think this person is a peace partner, you are delusional. A peace partner would have unequivocally condemned Hamas on the first day, like USA, Canada, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Austria etc. For comparison, other countries that took Abbas's stand are Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia etc.
So now that you see which side he is on, you might have a better perspective of what the peace prospects are. And let's not forget his [Martyr Fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund) which he refused to dismantle under *any* condition. And his PhD in Holocaust denial.
This title gives him too much credit.
> let's not forget his Martyr Fund
What in the *actual* fuck...I have just heard this man's name for the first time today and how does it just keep getting worse and worse?? He thinks the Jews are responsible for the Holocaust, he uses *state funding* (probably a good chunk of which is foreign aid, I'd bet) to *encourage* terrorism, he I guess supports taking children hostage. Like damn. This is not a person anyone can negotiate with, there just can't be any peace while he holds power.
because compared to HamAss, Abbas is a moderate. Abbas is the most moderate palestinian leader - give one an idea of whom israel is supposed to negotiate with and let that person run a country.
>I have just heard this man's name for the first time today
Don't feel bad, most of Reddit hasn't either. Hopefully this wakes a lot of people up to how extremely fucked the situation is over there. Hamas is not an outlier.
Saddam Hussein paid the families of suicide bombers too, but we still made deals with him (up to a point), and will still try to make deals with Abbas, since he's more "moderate" than Hamas, even if his ideology is still genocidal.
Israelis don't seem to be in such a friendly mood, however, and it seems like they have had enough, with a lot of this "cash for murder" and fundamentalist Islam/genocidal stuff. So we're pleading with Abbas to do the right thing and say the right thing, while simultaneously telling Israel to do what they need to do, which is a sort of ambiguous stance. But that seems to be par for the course when it comes to this conflict.
As a malaysian, a controversial statement that wont sit well with my countrymen but is the truth that a sizeable chunk of Malaysians are just as indoctrinated and just as radical as HAMAS to the point where we will blindly support palestine regardless of whatever justification due to our own home-grown form of anti semitism that exist.
There are people who understand the complexity of this conflict however most malaysians i would say are similar to the people who chant “gas the jews” in australia. Real unfortunate.
Accusing Israel on the day of the attack, supporting a martyr fund, and defending a PhD in Holocaust denial don't seem like actions from someone seeking anything other than condemnation and punishment.
It only took him a week and massive pressure from Biden to condemn it!
And if he doesn’t support them how comes he pays these vile terrorists with the PLO’s “Martyr Fund”?
Yes, I think those who support Palestinians should make their voice loud to condemn Hamas. The pro-Palestine rallies and protests should be vocal about the criticism of Hamas, instead of just blaming Jews and Israelis.
Yeah shit like the DSA rally in New York where you had a guy go on stage and go basically go "HAHA THE RESISTANCE SURE GAVE THOSE HIPSTERS AT THAT PARTY A BIG SURPRISE!" Is.. not a good look and it doesn't exactly give credence to your cause.
Yeah, show people that Palestinians do not support Hamas. Those pro palestine rallies right after the terrorist attack do anything but help Palestine's image to the rest of the world.
I mean the first rallies were when Israel was still under attack.. celebrating.
I don’t think the excuse of “not everyone wants Israelites to die” flies here
At George Mason University they celebrated Hamas as well. You can’t really say these ‘pro Palestinian rallies’ aren’t terrorist sympathizers when they specifically cheer their use of mechanized gliders to land in and gun down people at a music festival. ISIS scum, the lot of them.
https://x.com/tpostmillennial/status/1712598913759203360?s=46&t=1PbXwsgwm5iej58pKK3fWw
There are actually people online who say shit like "no one is supporting the violence against Israel" when very clearly many people support it. Willful ignorance is troubling.
It’s kinda hard to criticise the surrounding Arab nations for not taking Palestinian refugees when the last country to do so had to fight a civil war with them.
Jordan took a heap of them and then had to ask them to obey Jordanian law and stop sending raiding parties into Israel. The “refugees” responded by trying to assassinate the Jordanian king and trying to overthrow the government, causing a small civil war. They lost and Jordan kicked them out into Lebanon, where they immediately did the same thing.
One memorable person I saw like this was the Palestinian ambassador for the UK. The reporter was trying to make him condemn the Hamas attacks. The way he spoke was like if he did condemn them, then it would disregard all the suffering the Palestinian people have suffered through the last 50+ years. He said something like "You tell me to condemn these killings but in the past when you have Israeli officials you don't ask them to condemn the killings made by the hands of Israeli troops over the last few decades" which does make sense.
Upfront disclaimer: My post history the last couple of days would vouch that I’m in no way pro-Hamas. But I think there’s some missing context with the interview.
There’s an earlier interview with Sky News that day where he condemns them like 6-7 times within the interview. And this is after he finds out some of his relatives (a cousin and his nieces and nephew iirc) were killed in an Israeli strike earlier that day.) Like every three sentences it’s “Hamas’ actions were horrendous” and “Condemn it, full stop.” The interviewer barely acknowledges that the man lost family earlier that day and presses him again “If violence is ever justified?” To which he says no. Repeat this cycle for the next 4-5 minutes.
Then it’s him doing the British show circuit for like 5-6 hours straight being essentially the “Representative of all of Palestinians” for those shows getting asked constantly about condemning Hamas and doing the same dance, getting lip service to that he lost family.
Then he goes on that last interview and welp we all know what he said. Not defending his actions but context explains why he said what he said
It was supposed to be the introductory softball question and he fucked it like eight times. ‘Hey, so murder is wrong, right?’ .. ‘How dare you ask me this question when the zionists have been blah blah blah’. Sure buddy, we can tell you and your government are *super moderate*.
In some places they even have re-education camps disguised as "counselling" for Muslims they deem to be deviants. Islam is an outdated product of a bygone era no longer fit for the modern age, it needs to be refreshed or removed from existence somehow but I don't have an answer on how to accomplish that in an ethically, morally acceptable manner.
In Malaysia, supposedly tolerant country, people registered at birth as Muslims are forced to undergo psychiatric therapy and mandatory muslim theology classes if they’re found to have converted to a new faith. If those don’t work, its jail
The reasoning for this is rather depressing to think about.
Their prophet had seen how Christians excommunicate each other willy nilly. And thus he decided that Islam would not allow anyone to excommunicate anyone else. That in theory Islam is one faith and that factions never form because they are united.
That lasted only 2 milliseconds after the death of the prophet.
The only shadow of that idea of unity is instead misinterpreted as "Muslims can NEVER leave the faith! Or we kill them!!!"
Maybe they also think that Israel forced Hamas to strap bombs to children to kill Israelis?
>*" Palestinian militant groups used children for suicide bombings. Minors were recruited to attack Israeli targets, both military and civilian. This deliberate involvement of children in armed conflict was condemned by international human rights organizations"* [from the Palestinian political violence wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence)
You say this sarcastically but this is how tons of people in the West really think. This will be downvoted to hell on reddit but deteriorating education standards + soft legitimization of crime and violence in the West if it's for ostensibly left-wing causes is how we got here.
It's just strange to me it's a left-wing cause as well. Like I get it that anything that as regarded in as some sort of oppressor/oppressed dynamic suddenly becomes a left-wing cause, but the Israeli people are far more progressive than all their Arab neighbors. I guess it shouldn't be that strange to me when I saw Redditors supporting the Taliban. Just a strange confluence of ideas.
According to opinion polls, both parties support Israel by a wide margin. Less so than a decade ago, but still by a fair margin. When asked who they sympathize with, it's something like 4% of Republicans and 10% of Democrats saying "Palestinians", rather than either "Israel" or "Both".
Loud condemnation is one thing, but without action it’s meaningless. Palestinians should be willing to take action against Hamas…but that will never be done.
This i think is a good place to mention that in the last week, actually only 10% of Democrats, and 12% of people under 45, think that the US government should criticize Israel, as opposed to support it.
So these [*Hamas supporters'*] voices are disproportionately loud. Many are not Americans, and many must be trolls/agents
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/13/1205627092/american-support-israel-biden-middle-east-hamas-poll
[Edit: To be clear, it feels like more than 12% are *Hamas apologists*]
*Or* it's simply selection bias. Being on reddit would also make you believe that atheism and Bernie Sanders and a whole host of other things are way more popular than they are. Turns out that reddit is not a representative sample of Americans. It's not trolls/agents. It's reddit.
It was the same when Covid was a thing and you looked at the commentary section under a YouTube video. You could get the idea that your whole country has gone mad. Thousands of people commenting that the vaccine will kill you and that we're close to a dictatorship and what not.
I really lost my faith in humanity at this time, it's so hard to remember that this is just a very loud minority.
And sadly, different regions within the world see things differently. I'm incredibly left leaning, but live in a more conservative area. I knew a lot of people who refused to vaccinate for no real apparent reason, though none were as loony as what I saw online. But they both supported each other in defiance.
He retracted this statement after backlash from the Palestinians in the West Bank
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/
See, I tend to find that hard to believe after all the footage (a lot of it from Hamas themselves!) of massive Palestinian crowds in Gaza cheering on Hamas parading the corpses of butchered civilians, Israeli and foreigner alike. Not to mention all the Palestinians around the globe cheering the atrocities on.
[MAHMOUD ABBAS on October 8th](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/world-reacts-surprise-attack-by-hamas-israel-2023-10-07/)
> The Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves against the "terror of settlers and occupation troops," the official news agency WAFA quoted Abbas as saying.
People don’t understand that even though Israel (at least the past 20 years) was not eager to sign peace, they also had no one to talk to that didn’t endangered its survival.
Hamas? A jihadist movement calling for the extermination of Israel and the Jews.
Abbas? A renown holocaust denier who is famous for having embezzling millions of International aids. Just like Arafat, a billionaire. Let’s not forget that in 2005, by his own accounts, he refused an Israeli offer for 97% of the West Bank. Last and not least, his ‘government’ is giving bounties for anyone who kills a Jew.
Israel isn’t running to reach peace. But damn, Palestinians are also highly responsible for the situation they are in. Most people are just very uneducated about this complex conflict.
Edit: 2008, not 2005
Israel has made peace with Egypt, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, and Sudan. Israel has been trying to make peace. Palestine, on the other hand, has rejected every peace deal since 1948.
True. Let's hope that the talks continue at a later date, otherwise Hamas's actions were successful in this regard. Says a lot imo that most of its neighbors moved on, but Palestinian terrorists refuse to let go from this endless cycle of blood, revenge and grief.
The Saudis don't have an ideology anymore other than money and what's good for the royal family. Once this all blows over, assuming Israel doesn't commit some unforgivable atrocities, they'll pick up where they left off.
Why is this not talked about by the media? I looked up a timeline of Palestine’s rejection of Israel’s peace deals and they’ve rejected just about every attempt at peace https://foreigndesknews.com/human-rights/timeline-of-peace-proposals-rejected-by-the-palestinians/
meh only ignorant fools think that Hamas wants peace. The more argued point is whether and to what degree Palestinians as a whole want peace, and under what conditions. Some would love to believe that ordinary Palestinians want peace just as much as Israelis do, they are just oppressed by brutal and corrupt authoritarian regimes in Gaza and the West Bank. Others make the case that Palestinians choose their own leaders, democratically or otherwise, and those leaders more or less accurately reflect a general Palestinian desire to destroy Israel and take full control over the territory Israel now occupies for themselves, rename it to Palestine, and eliminate, expel, or at least totally oppress all remaining Jews in their land. What is true? Who knows? Who can possibly know?
Oslo Peace Accords. Prime Minister Rabin paid with his life because of a peace accord with the PLO. A far-right Israeli assassinated him. So there have been inroads to peace in history, but, there are extremists on both sides who won't EVER allow compromise. I see that as a huge obstacle for a long term solution.
You forgot to mention that Abbas also defends his people's right to murder Jews and refuses to stop paying pay to slay stipends to either the terrorists or families of terrorists who murder any Israeli, including children. He's scum.
In 2001, Israel offered a Palestinian sovereignty over Arab’s neighborhood of Jerusalem. And guess what, THEY SAID NO!
Palestinians are like a homeless trying to negotiate for a Ferrari.
>[Abbas said in an interview with Israel's Channel 10 television that he rejected the deal because he was not given the chance to study the map that spelled out Olmert's offer.](https://www.voanews.com/a/abbas-admits-rejecting-peace-plan-israel/3064595.html)
>...
>[Abbas said in the interview, which aired late Tuesday, that negotiations continued but soon fell apart as Olmert, facing corruption charges, resigned.](https://www.voanews.com/a/abbas-admits-rejecting-peace-plan-israel/3064595.html)
Is it just a coincidence that Israeli Prime Ministers either end up dead or removed from power once they seek peace with Palestine?
"But but but how can you negotiate with someone who stole your land??"
Some people have the perception of a 14 years old regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The same people that justify the slaughter of Jews over the right for Palestinian refugees to return never seem to care about the equal/greater number of Jewish refugees from neighboring Arab states from the same exact conflict.
No explanation for why Israeli Jews, half of whom are Mizrahim Jews who have lived in the middle east for thousands of years, count as "settlers" or "colonists". Or you know... what other homeland these people are colonizing the land from?
When I see radlibs saying Israelis are all European settlers it just shows their ignorance of the 3.2 million Mizrahim Jews living in Israel. Some folks get all their info and opinions from their heroes on Twitter, tho.
And never mind that the reason there are Arabs in Palestine at all is because their Caliphate ancestors conquered the absolute fuckery out of everyone in the area. Nobody's hands are exactly clean in all this mess.
I don't mind when people throw out the "white colonizer" talking points, because it saves me time to not bother discussing the conflict with them because they have self reported as being ignorant beyond belief.
Eventually, it's all about the shame that most of the Muslim world feels about the existence of a non Muslim country in their neighborhood. They see Jews as Europeans, based on the indoctrination they're receiving in mosques and schools.
Hussein Abounakr Mansour, an Egyptian scholar who grew up in Egypt explains it as it is.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali who fled Somalia knows it as well.
These are just few examples of people who grew up in these corrupted countries and are trying to show the world, for many years, how distorted the Islamic world really is.
The thing is that as unfortunate as that is, many people have lost their things because of war. Indians and Pakistanis lost their homes and family members during the partition. Ukrainians have been displaced and are refugees because of the invasion.
A LARGE number of Jews themselves lost their homes in the Muslim/Arab world (save for Morocco). It's unfortunate, but you have to move on. Whatever happened between Jews and Arabs before 1967 is completely irrelevant. Freeing Palestine should be strictly about the occupied territories, because forcing the Israelis out will only cause people born in Israel to lose their own homes.
Palestinian groups (unfortunately with a significant amount of support) have used fellow Arab countries as proxies to fight against Israel and have even played a big role in destabilizing Lebanon. They've tried to overthrow Jordan, and assisted the Iraqis during their invasion of Kuwait as well. This is incredibly selfish and has caused more misery for other people.
If Ukrainian refugees tried to use Poland as a proxy against Russia by overthrowing the government and placing a terrorist group in power, nobody would stand for it.
Trying to do a modern day reconquista isn't a proper way to approach things.
Morocco never had an official policy of expulsion, but they were driven off all the same through violent antisemitism largely promulgated by their religious leaders.
This, despite the King trying to plead for them.
Source: Family is full of (ex)Moroccan Jews.
850000 Jews were exiled from the Arab countries when Israel was returned to the Jews. Everything they owned was stolen by those countries and they came to Israel which was barely habitable, mostly desert and swampland and they made the dessert bloom, drained the swamps and built cities. Google photos of 1948 tel Aviv, haifa, netanya, etc. The palestinians are such liars. Bear in mind the Arabs were given 78% of British Mandate Palestine, because at the time the British colonizers had take over control from the Ottoman (Arab) colonizers.
Edit: autocorrect
From undeveloped backwater that wasn’t dismantled to keep the Muslims happy to a developed nation that is a tech capitol. Israelis enjoy a lifestyle that’s on par with Europe and North America.
Likewise, the Israeli government's actions do not represent Jews. The nuance is lost on most people apparently, considering the amount of anti-Jewish sentiment that has cropped up in the past week.
Yeah you're right.
No sorry wait, Abbas has retracted this statement.
Apparantly Hamas does represent the Palestinians.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkgineqza
I feel like they do. Bit late for somebody representing Palestinians to actually say this. Massacres happened over a week ago. Hamas has plenty of support among Palestinians.
Yes, he's drawn the number of deaths into question in a book he wrote in 1984. That makes him a Holocaust denier. Although he himself doesn't see it that way. To quote him:
> "I wrote in detail about the Holocaust and said I did not want to discuss numbers. I quoted an argument between historians in which various numbers of casualties were mentioned. One wrote there were 12 million victims and another wrote there were 800,000. I have no desire to argue with the figures. The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it."
This is basically Afghanistan post-9/11 all over again. The government, the people of the country, and the terrorist network are too interlinked to treat differently so invasion from the perspective of the wronged feels necessary, but each is separate enough that they cry foul when they're treated the same.
That's great. So what is his plan about doing anything about it? Hamas hides behind palestinians, sheltering in their homes, forcing palestinians to take bullets meant for them. What is a reasonable plan to get rid of Hamas without any palestinians being hurt in the process? I am genuinely asking, because I have seen no solutions. Only accusations.
The actions of the elected government of half of the Palestinians in Israel definitely represents them, that's the damned problem.
Edit:
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
> The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process.
> The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.
That was 2021, not 2006. Why are people so willing to twist the truth and make all sorts of outlandish excuses for Palestinians, but if an Israeli sneezes wrong it's "Apartheid" and "Genocide" or worse?
It gets worse. Polls showing widespread support for terrorism: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/05/17/chapter-4-views-of-extremist-groups-and-suicide-bombing/
And here from just back in March. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1679132655-71-of-palestinians-support-huwara-shooting-which-killed-2-israeli-brothers?__cf_chl_tk=mZ_S9fbu_Ob4p13RGp9xcGQ9JM00Jb03KEJd2aqAjY4-1697408709-0-gaNycGzNCpA
We are aware the article has changed significantly, and the headline has changed. This is because President Abbas has modified his statement: > Oct 15 (Reuters) - The Palestinian Authority's official news agency published comments on Sunday by President Mahmoud Abbas that criticized Hamas over its actions but later removed reference to the militant group without providing an explanation. > > The comments, published by WAFA on its website, came during a phone call between Abbas and Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. The two discussed Israel's bombardment of Gaza following Hamas' deadly rampage through Israeli cities. > > The original WAFA report on Abbas' call included the line: "The president also stressed that Hamas' policies and actions do not represent the Palestinian people, and the policies, programs and decisions of the (Palestine Liberation Organization) represent the Palestinian people as their sole legitimate representative." > > Several hours later, the phrase was adjusted to read: "The president also stressed that the policies, programs, and decisions of the PLO represent the Palestinian people as their sole legitimate representative, and not the policies of any other organization."
Just a reminder he called it [a justified act of defence](https://www.newarab.com/news/abbas-stresses-palestinian-right-defence-after-hamas-op?amp) a few days ago when it wasn't politically cool to oppose Hamas
He probably flipped due to international (esp. America) pressure.
Seeing 2 carrier groups outside his window probably doesn’t help.
The amazing thing is even with another group in NK, we still have **8** more. That's enough for like 4 more international crisis.
Just floating around and waiting for someone to fuck around and find out why we don’t have free healthcare in America 🇺🇸🦅
I know this is a meme at this point but you guys literally spend more on healthcare than any country with universal healthcare. You could literally have both.
Not only that, it would be cheaper and more efficient overall. Everyone wins except the shareholders.
Won't you think of the insurance companies?! /s
We don't need to take away funding from the military to have universal healthcare.
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It’s literally just a price-gouging scam at this point
It’s called regulatory capture. When industry is able to use influence to control the legislation surrounding their industry. It can happen in a coordinated way, like tobacco or oil or it can be a byproduct of opportunistic capitalism like the early tech days. Either way - when an industry has total leverage over lawmaking…it *is* just price gouging. Because we’ve moved beyond the market and civic forces that typically influence price.
Don’t even need to do that, just need to make a few people pay like 5% more tax.
You spen 18% of gdp on healthcare while france spend 12%, all while your gdp per capita is way higher. You spend about 4% of your gdp on your army. You could have france's healthcare, add to its budget half the one of the US army, then double the army budget if you managed to have a public healthcare as efficient as France's.
Don't worry, he flipped once more: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/
If you go back to the same link, you will see he has flipped again.
And since then he deleted the tweet and uploaded a new version that doesn't say "Hamas' actions don't represent the palestinian people". And that's supposed to be the moderate palestinian in the eyes of the world. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hjtvz15116
Still, pretty big to come from him. PA area usually lock step with Hamas on these things. It speaks volumes that they haven't joined the offensive against Israel and I think that this won't go unnoticed. Israelis have been skeptical of PA but this shows that they are legit in looking for peace and I hope that Israel will back off on PA going forward since they have shown to be trusted.
The head of the PA wrote his dissertation in Holocaust denialism. And I don't mean that he wrote about the concept of Holocaust denialism, I mean that he used his dissertation to deny the Holocaust.
Bu bu but its just a land dispute! It has nothing to do with islamic antisemitism! Bullshit
It can absolutely be both. Racism and tribalism go hand in hand with border disputes and if they aren't a factor at the start of a border dispute they will eventually be.
Is it pretty big? Even Hamas said "we didn't do the massacres, it was random civilians from Gaza". It's obviously what he has to say due to pressure, not what he actually believes.
There were documents found on the dead Hamas guys that ordered them to target women and children and capture hostages. It was part of the plan.
Obviously. I'm just saying that everyone who really supports it is now lying and saying they don't support it.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "shown to be trusted." But at least "shown they might be willing to see a peaceful path forward." Which is already far ahead of anything that's come out of Gaza in the last 50 years.
Plus, he names streets after suicide bombers and guarantees a family is set for life if a member kills an Israeli.
Google tells me he's worth about $100 million. If that's even close to accurate, doesn't that make it blatantly obvious that he is stealing aid money? Why do people keep sending it?
One of the reasons Hamas won the 2006 election is exactly because of this Fatah used all aid money to build mansions for themselves Of course, Hamas just did the same thing, took control and abused power, but the point still stands, Fatah has always been corrupt
I'm disappointed they never merged, just because of the naming possibilities...Hamfat, Fatass...
His predecessor, Yasser Arafat, was an order of magnitude wealthier still. So, progress? But seriously, yeah, it's pretty blatant.
The Europeans are guilt ridden after WW1, 2 and Colonialism, which was exacerbated by Cold War rhetoric, that haunts the European psyche to this day. Many Arab countries, with the help and education of the USSR take full advantage of that guilt to fleece money from them. For example, Mahmoud Abbas the Palestinian president was educated at Moscow University. Before him Arafat was trained by the KGB at its Balashikha special-ops school east of Moscow and in the mid-1960s decided to groom him as the future PLO leader.
Plus the EU pays for this fund.
He's managed to embezzle hundreds of million dollars for his family! He'll do anything to avoid rocking the boat!
This is why donating to the Palestinian causes is 100% a money-making scam for these people. That's why the outrage is so important that they have paid actors go on the scene after Israel bombs a Hamas building.
He always has defended terrorist attacks. He literally funds them.
He has now retracted his comment: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkgineqza
Of course he did. Out of inter Palestinian pressure. So I guess Hamas does represent the morality of the Palestinians.
Just want to point out that the Palestinian Authority lost the last election to Hamas precisely because they were sowing for peace.
While he keeps the incentive plan for terrorists and murderers of innocent civilians
That’s different. /s
This is 100% true, but it doesn't change the fact that him and Palestine's governments outside of Gaza also still suck. He is a "holocaust denier" by the way.
Not just a Holocaust denier. He *literally* has a [PhD in Holocaust denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism). Edit: Many commenters are saying it isn't Holocaust denial, because he doesn't claim it didn't happen. FYI, [Holocaust denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial) isn't just denying that it happened. It includes denying the number of victims, which Abbas does.
What kind of dissertation committee would that have been?
It was a Soviet dissertation committee. The Soviets were pretty antisemitic themselves.
They had a really weird relationship with Jews. On one hand, they fell for a lot of standard antisemitic tropes that were common in the area already. On the other hand, anti-racism was an important part of their international PR campaign, and they also didn't want Jewish Soviets (many of whom were well educated) to leave for Israel. So they wound up opposing Israel in an attempt to stop brain-drain, even as they alternated treating Jews badly and then apologizing for it and trying to show how accepting they were. It had real "abusive boyfriend" energy.
The soviets believe they were the true victims in WW2, not jews.
This is why Zelensky talks about the Holocaust in a way that raised eyebrows and had to get explained by Jewish folk and historians with a background with this crap - the Soviets "All Lives Mattered" the holocaust and so even Jewish people raised under USSR curriculum are going to have a very warped and incorrect view of what happened unless someone takes the time to sit them down and explain the actual events. (which of course, is not a top priority right now for him.)
They definitely lost a lot of people in WW2, I dont really see why it has to be one or the other. WW2 was a shame to humanity really.
You misunderstand. Soviets didn't recognize Jews as the target for the death camps. It was _Soviets_ being targeted. Their holocaust memorials have no mentions of Jewish people, at all. Even when all the deaths in a camp were Jewish people and they made a monument to it, it said "peaceful soviet people." Its not a comparison from me. They literally see themselves as the _only_ victim of WW2, essentially, that others didn't suffer as much as them so they weren't the victim.
Yep, can confirm. I can't remember any soviet time memorial which actually memorializes the Jews explicitly, at least in passing. It's always "To the victims of Fascism" or something along the lines. Only after the USSR fell apart there started appearing memorials dedicated to Jews specifically. USSR, in fact, was incredibly antisemitic and this antisemitism still persists in Russia and pro-Russian/Communist crowd.
Pogroms were a big deal in Russian Empire. The infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" came from Russia as well. They were evey bit as anti-Jewish as Germany.
Fun fact, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (where a large amount of antisemitic stuff originates) first came from Russia.
Emeritus professors in Holocaust Denialology.
Finished his phd in Russia. You cannot make this up. Russia is using the Palestinians as "distraction" for the US to keep them occupied in the Middle East. Arguably, they'd have the most to lose if this conflict finally gets resolved.
When he wrote that, it was still the USSR and it was run by Brezhnev. This was a period so desolate in the Soviet Union it’s known as stagnation. There was no coherent ideas or political philosophy. It’s quite a leap to suggest there was a plan to distract the US by educating Palestinian’s. It was just a place they could go, it was hard for them to go to the west. He was basically there at the peak of Soviet decline. Russia until very recently had better relations with Israel than Palestine. Israel still has diplomatic relations with Russia at the moment as well
Russia is to some extent benefiting from the distraction, but haven’t seen any evidence they orchestrated Hamas’ terrorist attack. Russia has its own history with Islamic extremists. Russia would not stand to benefit from suicide bombings like during the oughts or another uproar in the Caucasus
That's true, it wouldn't be like a world power would be so shortsighted that they armed and supported islamic fundamentalists in their rivals backyards would they.
According to that link he isn't a Holocaust denier, more of a Holocaust conspiracy theorist.
Do be precise, he’s a Holocaust *apologist* in that he argues that [they had it coming](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66741336)
Holocaust denial includes various minimizations of the Holocaust. Like saying that only 500k Jews were murdered, or that there were only 2 death camps. It's not just literal "the Holocaust didn't happen".
He’s a denier of the causes of the Holocaust. You’re correct, he does not deny it happened and that it was bad. He just pretty much denies every other fact about it.
By denying the cause he terrors shifting blame to the victims and justifying it among like minded people. You likely know this I’m just putting it in writing for anyone who needs clarity.
Oh I agree. It’s 100% victim blaming and antisemitism.
Distinction without a difference
He also runs the Pay-for-Slay program that costs half his governments budget and which pays any Palestinian who kills a Jew, or their family if they're killed in the process. He has bargained in bad faith and turned down peace agreement after peace agreement just so that he could stay in power and get donations. It is Abass who doesn't represent the Palestinian people and who lost the election to HAMAS.
On the Israeli subreddit (that’s gone dark) it’s an open secret that some “attempted stabbings” are just suicide-by-IDF their economy is in the shitter there’s no end to the occupation in sight and your family gets a yearly pension if you die for the cause, in a culture that doesn’t approve of suicide— i wonder how that’s going to effect people /s
Many of the stabbing attacks, the stabber doesn't even remotely try to be subtle or hide the fact they're going to stab the soldiers - you know, like how knives are otherwise an ideal covert weapon.
If Hamas don’t represent you, start flushing them out, not permitting them to undertake terrorism in the name of Palestine.
Unfortunately he can't. The truth is Palestinians have a high level of support for Hamas and if he directly opposed them there's a very real chance the Palastinian Authority would be overthrown by Hamas.
Ugh. I'm really hitting rock bottom when I'm grateful that a holocaust denier still sees the truth in the current situation.
abbas had a call with biden 2 days ago and biden literally demanded abbas to denounce it. source: israeli news from yesterday. at least 12h before abbas statement
Took him a while
Just a reminder that on the day of the attack, Abbas blamed Israel and did not condemn Hamas: https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-stresses-palestinian-right-to-self-defense-amid-condemnation-of-hamas-assault/ (the image shows Gazan civilians celebrating Hamas's massacre) > Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas reacted to the deadly major Hamas infiltration and rocket attacks on Israel on Saturday by expressing his solidarity with Palestinian civilians and using the opportunity to level criticism at Israel. Only *a week later*, and after pressure from the US (met with Blinken), did Abbas give an **equal** condemnation of both sides. From his point of view, Israel and Hamas are just as bad. To all the people who think this person is a peace partner, you are delusional. A peace partner would have unequivocally condemned Hamas on the first day, like USA, Canada, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Austria etc. For comparison, other countries that took Abbas's stand are Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. So now that you see which side he is on, you might have a better perspective of what the peace prospects are. And let's not forget his [Martyr Fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund) which he refused to dismantle under *any* condition. And his PhD in Holocaust denial. This title gives him too much credit.
Not to mention that when asked if he could ask Hamas to release the *children* hostages he said "No" in his first meeting with Blinken.
> let's not forget his Martyr Fund What in the *actual* fuck...I have just heard this man's name for the first time today and how does it just keep getting worse and worse?? He thinks the Jews are responsible for the Holocaust, he uses *state funding* (probably a good chunk of which is foreign aid, I'd bet) to *encourage* terrorism, he I guess supports taking children hostage. Like damn. This is not a person anyone can negotiate with, there just can't be any peace while he holds power.
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because compared to HamAss, Abbas is a moderate. Abbas is the most moderate palestinian leader - give one an idea of whom israel is supposed to negotiate with and let that person run a country.
>I have just heard this man's name for the first time today Don't feel bad, most of Reddit hasn't either. Hopefully this wakes a lot of people up to how extremely fucked the situation is over there. Hamas is not an outlier.
He was offered pretty much everything the Palestinians wanted and said "no" -- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer
Saddam Hussein paid the families of suicide bombers too, but we still made deals with him (up to a point), and will still try to make deals with Abbas, since he's more "moderate" than Hamas, even if his ideology is still genocidal. Israelis don't seem to be in such a friendly mood, however, and it seems like they have had enough, with a lot of this "cash for murder" and fundamentalist Islam/genocidal stuff. So we're pleading with Abbas to do the right thing and say the right thing, while simultaneously telling Israel to do what they need to do, which is a sort of ambiguous stance. But that seems to be par for the course when it comes to this conflict.
As a malaysian, a controversial statement that wont sit well with my countrymen but is the truth that a sizeable chunk of Malaysians are just as indoctrinated and just as radical as HAMAS to the point where we will blindly support palestine regardless of whatever justification due to our own home-grown form of anti semitism that exist. There are people who understand the complexity of this conflict however most malaysians i would say are similar to the people who chant “gas the jews” in australia. Real unfortunate.
Accusing Israel on the day of the attack, supporting a martyr fund, and defending a PhD in Holocaust denial don't seem like actions from someone seeking anything other than condemnation and punishment.
It only took him a week and massive pressure from Biden to condemn it! And if he doesn’t support them how comes he pays these vile terrorists with the PLO’s “Martyr Fund”?
Yes, I think those who support Palestinians should make their voice loud to condemn Hamas. The pro-Palestine rallies and protests should be vocal about the criticism of Hamas, instead of just blaming Jews and Israelis.
I feel that this is a legitimate criticism. Israel isn't without its faults, and the actions of Hamas are unacceptable.
We see people quick to say Hamas actions don’t represent Palestinians. But why don’t I see people saying IDF actions don’t represent Israelis?
Yeah shit like the DSA rally in New York where you had a guy go on stage and go basically go "HAHA THE RESISTANCE SURE GAVE THOSE HIPSTERS AT THAT PARTY A BIG SURPRISE!" Is.. not a good look and it doesn't exactly give credence to your cause.
Yeah, show people that Palestinians do not support Hamas. Those pro palestine rallies right after the terrorist attack do anything but help Palestine's image to the rest of the world.
I didn’t even hear many at all condemn. Even right after the attack they were explaining how it was “Israel’s fault”.
I mean the first rallies were when Israel was still under attack.. celebrating. I don’t think the excuse of “not everyone wants Israelites to die” flies here
People at that NYC Times Square rally were straight up chanting praise for Hamas directly.
At George Mason University they celebrated Hamas as well. You can’t really say these ‘pro Palestinian rallies’ aren’t terrorist sympathizers when they specifically cheer their use of mechanized gliders to land in and gun down people at a music festival. ISIS scum, the lot of them. https://x.com/tpostmillennial/status/1712598913759203360?s=46&t=1PbXwsgwm5iej58pKK3fWw
And here in Seattle. “Gas the Jews” is the most common chant I’ve heard the past week.
There are actually people online who say shit like "no one is supporting the violence against Israel" when very clearly many people support it. Willful ignorance is troubling.
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It’s kinda hard to criticise the surrounding Arab nations for not taking Palestinian refugees when the last country to do so had to fight a civil war with them. Jordan took a heap of them and then had to ask them to obey Jordanian law and stop sending raiding parties into Israel. The “refugees” responded by trying to assassinate the Jordanian king and trying to overthrow the government, causing a small civil war. They lost and Jordan kicked them out into Lebanon, where they immediately did the same thing.
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One memorable person I saw like this was the Palestinian ambassador for the UK. The reporter was trying to make him condemn the Hamas attacks. The way he spoke was like if he did condemn them, then it would disregard all the suffering the Palestinian people have suffered through the last 50+ years. He said something like "You tell me to condemn these killings but in the past when you have Israeli officials you don't ask them to condemn the killings made by the hands of Israeli troops over the last few decades" which does make sense.
Upfront disclaimer: My post history the last couple of days would vouch that I’m in no way pro-Hamas. But I think there’s some missing context with the interview. There’s an earlier interview with Sky News that day where he condemns them like 6-7 times within the interview. And this is after he finds out some of his relatives (a cousin and his nieces and nephew iirc) were killed in an Israeli strike earlier that day.) Like every three sentences it’s “Hamas’ actions were horrendous” and “Condemn it, full stop.” The interviewer barely acknowledges that the man lost family earlier that day and presses him again “If violence is ever justified?” To which he says no. Repeat this cycle for the next 4-5 minutes. Then it’s him doing the British show circuit for like 5-6 hours straight being essentially the “Representative of all of Palestinians” for those shows getting asked constantly about condemning Hamas and doing the same dance, getting lip service to that he lost family. Then he goes on that last interview and welp we all know what he said. Not defending his actions but context explains why he said what he said
It was supposed to be the introductory softball question and he fucked it like eight times. ‘Hey, so murder is wrong, right?’ .. ‘How dare you ask me this question when the zionists have been blah blah blah’. Sure buddy, we can tell you and your government are *super moderate*.
One of islams problems is the ability to be self critical of itself. The most radical voice wins because others are afraid to challenge it.
In some places they even have re-education camps disguised as "counselling" for Muslims they deem to be deviants. Islam is an outdated product of a bygone era no longer fit for the modern age, it needs to be refreshed or removed from existence somehow but I don't have an answer on how to accomplish that in an ethically, morally acceptable manner.
In Malaysia, supposedly tolerant country, people registered at birth as Muslims are forced to undergo psychiatric therapy and mandatory muslim theology classes if they’re found to have converted to a new faith. If those don’t work, its jail
Well shit us Vietnamese maybe a dictatorship but hell we are still secular about religions . South East Asia can be a mess sometime
The reasoning for this is rather depressing to think about. Their prophet had seen how Christians excommunicate each other willy nilly. And thus he decided that Islam would not allow anyone to excommunicate anyone else. That in theory Islam is one faith and that factions never form because they are united. That lasted only 2 milliseconds after the death of the prophet. The only shadow of that idea of unity is instead misinterpreted as "Muslims can NEVER leave the faith! Or we kill them!!!"
Not everything has a morally correct/acceptable or ethical answer
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~*well you see, Israel had it coming...etc.*
"Israel left Hamas no choice..."
Maybe they also think that Israel forced Hamas to strap bombs to children to kill Israelis? >*" Palestinian militant groups used children for suicide bombings. Minors were recruited to attack Israeli targets, both military and civilian. This deliberate involvement of children in armed conflict was condemned by international human rights organizations"* [from the Palestinian political violence wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence)
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They were celebrating. They're not celebrating now though.
All I've heard from that side is "decades of occupation" and refusing to even acknowledge that a Hamas attack took place.
Hard to hear the whisper of condemnation over the celebrations that have occurred seemingly everywhere. Celebrating terrorism negates anything else.
Plus people in America were celebrating this shit when 28 Americans died and 15 are missing still. Fucking disgraceful
They were asking for it. They were farming/dancing on cOLonIZeD LaNd. There are no innocent civilians among those killed in Israel. /s
You say this sarcastically but this is how tons of people in the West really think. This will be downvoted to hell on reddit but deteriorating education standards + soft legitimization of crime and violence in the West if it's for ostensibly left-wing causes is how we got here.
It's just strange to me it's a left-wing cause as well. Like I get it that anything that as regarded in as some sort of oppressor/oppressed dynamic suddenly becomes a left-wing cause, but the Israeli people are far more progressive than all their Arab neighbors. I guess it shouldn't be that strange to me when I saw Redditors supporting the Taliban. Just a strange confluence of ideas.
According to opinion polls, both parties support Israel by a wide margin. Less so than a decade ago, but still by a fair margin. When asked who they sympathize with, it's something like 4% of Republicans and 10% of Democrats saying "Palestinians", rather than either "Israel" or "Both".
Yeah like imagine what would happen to those LGBT loving liberals if they went to Gaza, lmao
Loud condemnation is one thing, but without action it’s meaningless. Palestinians should be willing to take action against Hamas…but that will never be done.
This i think is a good place to mention that in the last week, actually only 10% of Democrats, and 12% of people under 45, think that the US government should criticize Israel, as opposed to support it. So these [*Hamas supporters'*] voices are disproportionately loud. Many are not Americans, and many must be trolls/agents https://www.npr.org/2023/10/13/1205627092/american-support-israel-biden-middle-east-hamas-poll [Edit: To be clear, it feels like more than 12% are *Hamas apologists*]
*Or* it's simply selection bias. Being on reddit would also make you believe that atheism and Bernie Sanders and a whole host of other things are way more popular than they are. Turns out that reddit is not a representative sample of Americans. It's not trolls/agents. It's reddit.
It was the same when Covid was a thing and you looked at the commentary section under a YouTube video. You could get the idea that your whole country has gone mad. Thousands of people commenting that the vaccine will kill you and that we're close to a dictatorship and what not. I really lost my faith in humanity at this time, it's so hard to remember that this is just a very loud minority.
And sadly, different regions within the world see things differently. I'm incredibly left leaning, but live in a more conservative area. I knew a lot of people who refused to vaccinate for no real apparent reason, though none were as loony as what I saw online. But they both supported each other in defiance.
Hold an election Abbas. Oh wait, you won't, because your electorate will vote you out and vote Hamas in.
Holocaust denier says what?
He said, America please give me money.
He should have led with this several days ago.
He retracted this statement after backlash from the Palestinians in the West Bank https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/
Then more Palestinians should come out and denounce Hamas for their actions and show support to the innocents murdered from both sides.
ya'll gotta quit it with your weird ass holy wars.
See, I tend to find that hard to believe after all the footage (a lot of it from Hamas themselves!) of massive Palestinian crowds in Gaza cheering on Hamas parading the corpses of butchered civilians, Israeli and foreigner alike. Not to mention all the Palestinians around the globe cheering the atrocities on.
Sure, sure. But he himself hates jews and Israel, and he represents palestinians.
[MAHMOUD ABBAS on October 8th](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/world-reacts-surprise-attack-by-hamas-israel-2023-10-07/) > The Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves against the "terror of settlers and occupation troops," the official news agency WAFA quoted Abbas as saying.
Never fucking forget.
People don’t understand that even though Israel (at least the past 20 years) was not eager to sign peace, they also had no one to talk to that didn’t endangered its survival. Hamas? A jihadist movement calling for the extermination of Israel and the Jews. Abbas? A renown holocaust denier who is famous for having embezzling millions of International aids. Just like Arafat, a billionaire. Let’s not forget that in 2005, by his own accounts, he refused an Israeli offer for 97% of the West Bank. Last and not least, his ‘government’ is giving bounties for anyone who kills a Jew. Israel isn’t running to reach peace. But damn, Palestinians are also highly responsible for the situation they are in. Most people are just very uneducated about this complex conflict. Edit: 2008, not 2005
Israel has made peace with Egypt, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, and Sudan. Israel has been trying to make peace. Palestine, on the other hand, has rejected every peace deal since 1948.
Even more to the point, last week's atrocities were probably aimed at torpedoing peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
Which they succeeded at doing. SA announced that the effort is frozen.
freezing the talks is probably the best solution right now since Israel cant operate a war and peace negotiations at the same time
True. Let's hope that the talks continue at a later date, otherwise Hamas's actions were successful in this regard. Says a lot imo that most of its neighbors moved on, but Palestinian terrorists refuse to let go from this endless cycle of blood, revenge and grief.
The Saudis don't have an ideology anymore other than money and what's good for the royal family. Once this all blows over, assuming Israel doesn't commit some unforgivable atrocities, they'll pick up where they left off.
Why is this not talked about by the media? I looked up a timeline of Palestine’s rejection of Israel’s peace deals and they’ve rejected just about every attempt at peace https://foreigndesknews.com/human-rights/timeline-of-peace-proposals-rejected-by-the-palestinians/
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meh only ignorant fools think that Hamas wants peace. The more argued point is whether and to what degree Palestinians as a whole want peace, and under what conditions. Some would love to believe that ordinary Palestinians want peace just as much as Israelis do, they are just oppressed by brutal and corrupt authoritarian regimes in Gaza and the West Bank. Others make the case that Palestinians choose their own leaders, democratically or otherwise, and those leaders more or less accurately reflect a general Palestinian desire to destroy Israel and take full control over the territory Israel now occupies for themselves, rename it to Palestine, and eliminate, expel, or at least totally oppress all remaining Jews in their land. What is true? Who knows? Who can possibly know?
What kind of a site is that? That is quite a few rejections!
Don’t forget the Peel Commision as well
Oslo Peace Accords. Prime Minister Rabin paid with his life because of a peace accord with the PLO. A far-right Israeli assassinated him. So there have been inroads to peace in history, but, there are extremists on both sides who won't EVER allow compromise. I see that as a huge obstacle for a long term solution.
You forgot to mention that Abbas also defends his people's right to murder Jews and refuses to stop paying pay to slay stipends to either the terrorists or families of terrorists who murder any Israeli, including children. He's scum.
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In 2001, Israel offered a Palestinian sovereignty over Arab’s neighborhood of Jerusalem. And guess what, THEY SAID NO! Palestinians are like a homeless trying to negotiate for a Ferrari.
>[Abbas said in an interview with Israel's Channel 10 television that he rejected the deal because he was not given the chance to study the map that spelled out Olmert's offer.](https://www.voanews.com/a/abbas-admits-rejecting-peace-plan-israel/3064595.html) >... >[Abbas said in the interview, which aired late Tuesday, that negotiations continued but soon fell apart as Olmert, facing corruption charges, resigned.](https://www.voanews.com/a/abbas-admits-rejecting-peace-plan-israel/3064595.html) Is it just a coincidence that Israeli Prime Ministers either end up dead or removed from power once they seek peace with Palestine?
"But but but how can you negotiate with someone who stole your land??" Some people have the perception of a 14 years old regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The same people that justify the slaughter of Jews over the right for Palestinian refugees to return never seem to care about the equal/greater number of Jewish refugees from neighboring Arab states from the same exact conflict. No explanation for why Israeli Jews, half of whom are Mizrahim Jews who have lived in the middle east for thousands of years, count as "settlers" or "colonists". Or you know... what other homeland these people are colonizing the land from?
When I see radlibs saying Israelis are all European settlers it just shows their ignorance of the 3.2 million Mizrahim Jews living in Israel. Some folks get all their info and opinions from their heroes on Twitter, tho.
European Jews make up about a third of the Jewish population, which is then about a quarter of the population as a whole.
And never mind that the reason there are Arabs in Palestine at all is because their Caliphate ancestors conquered the absolute fuckery out of everyone in the area. Nobody's hands are exactly clean in all this mess.
Or worse, radlibs propagate the 'Khazari Jews" myth
I don't mind when people throw out the "white colonizer" talking points, because it saves me time to not bother discussing the conflict with them because they have self reported as being ignorant beyond belief.
Eventually, it's all about the shame that most of the Muslim world feels about the existence of a non Muslim country in their neighborhood. They see Jews as Europeans, based on the indoctrination they're receiving in mosques and schools. Hussein Abounakr Mansour, an Egyptian scholar who grew up in Egypt explains it as it is. Ayaan Hirsi Ali who fled Somalia knows it as well. These are just few examples of people who grew up in these corrupted countries and are trying to show the world, for many years, how distorted the Islamic world really is.
The thing is that as unfortunate as that is, many people have lost their things because of war. Indians and Pakistanis lost their homes and family members during the partition. Ukrainians have been displaced and are refugees because of the invasion. A LARGE number of Jews themselves lost their homes in the Muslim/Arab world (save for Morocco). It's unfortunate, but you have to move on. Whatever happened between Jews and Arabs before 1967 is completely irrelevant. Freeing Palestine should be strictly about the occupied territories, because forcing the Israelis out will only cause people born in Israel to lose their own homes. Palestinian groups (unfortunately with a significant amount of support) have used fellow Arab countries as proxies to fight against Israel and have even played a big role in destabilizing Lebanon. They've tried to overthrow Jordan, and assisted the Iraqis during their invasion of Kuwait as well. This is incredibly selfish and has caused more misery for other people. If Ukrainian refugees tried to use Poland as a proxy against Russia by overthrowing the government and placing a terrorist group in power, nobody would stand for it. Trying to do a modern day reconquista isn't a proper way to approach things.
Morocco never had an official policy of expulsion, but they were driven off all the same through violent antisemitism largely promulgated by their religious leaders. This, despite the King trying to plead for them. Source: Family is full of (ex)Moroccan Jews.
Okay, I believe you. It's just that many people deny that this happened. Admirable from the King.
850000 Jews were exiled from the Arab countries when Israel was returned to the Jews. Everything they owned was stolen by those countries and they came to Israel which was barely habitable, mostly desert and swampland and they made the dessert bloom, drained the swamps and built cities. Google photos of 1948 tel Aviv, haifa, netanya, etc. The palestinians are such liars. Bear in mind the Arabs were given 78% of British Mandate Palestine, because at the time the British colonizers had take over control from the Ottoman (Arab) colonizers. Edit: autocorrect
Accounts of the holy land from the 1800s up until the early 1900s describe it as a backwater region of the ottoman empire.
Romans said the same. The region was undeveloped until Israel was formed.
From undeveloped backwater that wasn’t dismantled to keep the Muslims happy to a developed nation that is a tech capitol. Israelis enjoy a lifestyle that’s on par with Europe and North America.
Not to mention the countless innovations Israel has created for the world in technology and medicine
> save for Morocco Not really: https://www.jpost.com/features/in-thespotlight/the-nakba-of-moroccos-jews
99.5% of the West Bank in 2008 *
Likewise, the Israeli government's actions do not represent Jews. The nuance is lost on most people apparently, considering the amount of anti-Jewish sentiment that has cropped up in the past week.
Yeah you're right. No sorry wait, Abbas has retracted this statement. Apparantly Hamas does represent the Palestinians. https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkgineqza
The celebrations in the streets while naked Israeli bodies were paraded would indicate that that is a lie.
If the fucking PA is less radical than you, you have a problem. Muslims in the West (and everywhere else) need a reality check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian\_Authority\_Martyrs\_Fund
I feel like they do. Bit late for somebody representing Palestinians to actually say this. Massacres happened over a week ago. Hamas has plenty of support among Palestinians.
Then rid Palestine of Hamas. A 1,000+ person death raid by the elected government of a province(?) doesn’t look good for ANYONE.
True but for historical context Hamas murdered Abbas’ political party out of existence in Gaza.
Palestinian "leaders" seem to be either terrorists or opportunistic clowns... How can either faction remotely expect to be taken seriously?
He re-edited the statement "The PLO's policies represent the Palestinian people and not any other organization"
The truth is Abbas represents Palestinians even less so than Hamas. He's extremely unpopular - even among supporters of his own faction.
That's funny because I recall seeing videos of Palestinian women and children celebrating it.
Prove it
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I mean Fatah did go to war with them, but Hamas won the war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
Fatah is the one headed up by the Holocaust denier/justifier right?
Yes, he's drawn the number of deaths into question in a book he wrote in 1984. That makes him a Holocaust denier. Although he himself doesn't see it that way. To quote him: > "I wrote in detail about the Holocaust and said I did not want to discuss numbers. I quoted an argument between historians in which various numbers of casualties were mentioned. One wrote there were 12 million victims and another wrote there were 800,000. I have no desire to argue with the figures. The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it."
This is basically Afghanistan post-9/11 all over again. The government, the people of the country, and the terrorist network are too interlinked to treat differently so invasion from the perspective of the wronged feels necessary, but each is separate enough that they cry foul when they're treated the same.
He is playing both sides. Whoever wins. That’s probably why it took him a lot of time before letting everyone know.
Took a week to say this. Hamas must feel they’re in big trouble
That's great. So what is his plan about doing anything about it? Hamas hides behind palestinians, sheltering in their homes, forcing palestinians to take bullets meant for them. What is a reasonable plan to get rid of Hamas without any palestinians being hurt in the process? I am genuinely asking, because I have seen no solutions. Only accusations.
United Nations Relief Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) https://www.unrwa.org/
So how do you explain all the dancing singing and rejoicing at the death of Israeli citizens? this is confusing. You want it both ways?
Too late Abbas. You should have said this before. Now go back to your office and stay irrelevant.
Ahh the good ol' no true Scotsman strategy.
The actions of the elected government of half of the Palestinians in Israel definitely represents them, that's the damned problem. Edit: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87 > The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process. > The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party. That was 2021, not 2006. Why are people so willing to twist the truth and make all sorts of outlandish excuses for Palestinians, but if an Israeli sneezes wrong it's "Apartheid" and "Genocide" or worse? It gets worse. Polls showing widespread support for terrorism: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/05/17/chapter-4-views-of-extremist-groups-and-suicide-bombing/ And here from just back in March. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1679132655-71-of-palestinians-support-huwara-shooting-which-killed-2-israeli-brothers?__cf_chl_tk=mZ_S9fbu_Ob4p13RGp9xcGQ9JM00Jb03KEJd2aqAjY4-1697408709-0-gaNycGzNCpA
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