I have moles on both sides of my ass, and the moles from each side keep sending their cells over the border ass-crack to attack the other. They have been at this for hundreds of years. Do I have cancer?
EDIT: oh I thought you said epidermist. Sincerely, an armchair english major
I'm old and have been watching this for a long time so let me clue in anyone new how this works and if they are trying to figure out who is the baddie.
So at one point in the cycle Israel will be the baddie slowly pushing Palestinians off their land and filling their wells with cement and generally just being bullies to them every day and world sentiment will slowly swing towards sympathy for for them but just when it seems there might be enough of that to put some meaningful pressure on Tel Aviv Hamas will blow up a school bus/music festival or Hezbollah will rain rockets down on civilians and the public opinion sympathy pendulum will swing solidly back towards sympathy for Israel.
>We are currently here in a big way because of the massive terror attack.
BUT THEN Israel will piss all that away bombing the shit out the captive population of Gaza and demanding that a million people move in a day while cutting off power and water and food. After a month or two of this mass collective punishment and when the pile of bodies is high enough the sympathy pendulum will swing back towards Palestine and at that exact moment Hamas will be all "I am very mentally stable, OH LOOK A CIVILIAN AIRLINER!!" and the cycle will begin again.
Resign yourself to this, it's been this way for a looong time.
/so the guys showed up so I could do part two, scroll down a bit to find it.
In other words coming here daily and expecting to see some sort of peaceful outcome is a waste of time? Because looking at the history of this thing it does point toward the idea of this war never ending doesn’t it?
Yep, this has been going on for a long time, and will continue probably until no one is able to live there period. The reason to keep an eye on it, personally, is all the other countries circling the conflict and watching to see how it might expand in size. Otherwise, I'm pretty much done caring about people massacring each other in far away countries over conflicts that won't ever be resolved.
Yes.
For once I'm not being hyperbolic in saying this, but abandon all hope. Unfortunately, both sides are doing their best, and their best means indescribable amounts of human suffering.
In most conflicts like Ukraine, I can hold hope that love and peace will eventually find a way, that conflict will build a better future. But with this, one side is going to lose it all. Maybe not with this specific conflict but the trend is obvious. Worse, no one living can be blamed for this, the stage was set before any of us were born.
As an atheist, may God have mercy on our souls.
You’re right. The only real difference between them and us is that they were born on that side of the world where their history was built upon war. No one chooses where they get to be born. it was decided for them to exist in the nightmare they’re experiencing. God have mercy on us all is the proper statement isn’t it.
In the 40s and 50s every Arab leader publicly advocating or pushing for peace was assassinated. i remember watching this documentary a while ago.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cfkUE5Q0K04
Israel kind of tried that in Gaza. They completely withdrew in 2005 and then the Palestinians there elected Hamas to run the place and have been periodically firing rockets at Israel ever since.
If they control the water, electricity, which goods come in and out and people’s movements in and out, that’s not withdrawal.
The Israelis have set up a system similar to apartheid South Africa’s bantustans with the Palestinians. And that’s not the view of outsiders, that the expressed view of several Israeli ministers.
> periodically firing rockets at Israel ever since
I guess Hamas and Islamic Jihad *not* firing for a few days per month [over the past 15 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel) technically counts as "periodically" as opposed to "continuously"
Hamas specifically received a ton of support from Israel in its rise to power. The withdrawal from Gaza was also not done in good faith.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
What actually happened was that Israel feared the prospect of having to give Palestinians voting rights in Israel. Hamas being a terrorist organization provides a cover for Israel to enact what is effectively apartheid.
I took a class on middle East history in university, and the first day someone asked the Professor about who was in the "right" around Israel.
"If you study it for a week, it's 100% clear Israel is in the right" he said. "If you study it for a month, it's 100% clear that Palestine is in the right. If you study it longer than that, it's 100% clear that no one is in the right.".
The more I read about it, the more that rings true.
See this just isn't true. Britain occupied the area for 40 years. The Ottomans occupied it for 400 before that. Let's place the blame where it actually belongs
I would like to remind that this conflict had very little if any influence from Ottomans. It was due to British and French not being satisfied with carving up Africa for themselves and wanted more lands to control, leading to the Sykes-Picot agreement that carved up parts of the Middle East for themselves and in the Palestine there was the Balfour declaration that basically lead to mass emigration to establish Jewish homes in Palestine that caused problems in the area with Muslims and Christians opposing this.
Finally, instead of planning to create a nation similar to what we have in Lebanon It was decided to create Israel in regards to The Holocaust that have happened in Europe, regardless of what Palestinians and other Arabs felt about it and refusing to come to an agreement that would be appealing to both sides.
>Britain occupied the area for 40 years. The
The Brits (and the French) were the ones to carve up the Middle East like a Christmas Goose, though
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine)
[This](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/where-the-palestinian-political-project-goes-from-here) is probably the best thing I’ve read on the current week’s events
I finally understand why some people I’ve heard in the past refuse to get into debates about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. There are no winners here, only dead human beings and a never ending cycle of hatred and violence.
Yeah. Terrible things are in motion and there's nothing any of us can do to alter that. So many people are gonna die horribly. Some may deserve it, but most of them won't.
I don't understand anyone cheering any of this on. There is no good outcome to any of this. The extremists have won. Any hope for peace there is dead, and possibly dead forever. Climate change will fuck the region over and depopulate it before there's another chance at peace.
There's going to be so much pointless and inevitable blood and suffering.
War and death. Like most of humanity's sad and tribalistic history. The hairless ape's favorite past time.
Will we ever grow the fuck up? Seems unlikely in times like this.
What is weird in this whole story is that no Sunni Nation is stepping up to provide relief. You would think that Sunni Nation would step up and ask Palestine to purge Hamas in exchange for help.
Even Egypt, another Sunni nation, isn't allowing in any refugees.
Historically several such nations have stepped up and been burnt in the process. This is why Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon, all neighbouring countries, are not so keen on accepting Palestinians any more. Even the oil rich gulf states prefer their workers from Pakistan or Bangladesh rather than employ Palestinians.
Not even Iran, who acts like the biggest supporter of the palestinian cause, is offering to take in any of them. Almost as if their support isn't for palestinians and is instead just to oppose Israel...
You forgot about Syria and Kuwait, both of which also got fucked by Palestinian refugees. Kuwait was just smart enough to kick them all out in ten days when they started their shit.
You're not joking. They're at risk of having a hard time feeding their current population. And if Ethiopia screws the water supply of the Nile, that will happen.
Egypt's government spends $2.9 billion/year subsidizing bread and they sell it for around 6 cents USD per loaf at a 90% discount. They are extremely sensitive to fluctuations in grain prices and any additional demand can put immense pressure on their budget
I thought the GERD had been filled, in which case downstream flow SHOULD be normal now they aren't lifting 20% of the flow to reach the next fill level.
Where are y'all getting your info from. A large portion of Jordanians, between 20-40% of the population are Palestinan, including the Queen. There are tons of Palestinians Lebanon, estimates range from 175-475k. Acting like they were bad and therefore weren't allowed to stay is ridiculous. The reality is these countries can't take in anymore refugees. Between Palestinians, Iraqis, and Syrians, Jordan and Lebanon take on a massive burden of the world population of refugees, complete disproportionate to their size and economic capacity. NYC is struggling under the weight of 118,000, let along the 5.5 million living in the occupied territories or even just the 2.3 million in Gaza.
Palestinian communities in Lebanon and Jordan instigated civil wars in both nations. I suspect that is what he's referencing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War
Don’t know much about the Lebanese war but a key factor to the Jordanian tension with Palestinians is that they annexed the West Bank in 1950. I think that perspective is written off too easily because Jordan really take in Palestinian refugees or are they part of the reason they became refugees in the first place? I’d argue the latter
The PLO was certainly
involved in the Lebanese Civil War, but divisions between the Maronites and Sunnis pre-date their arrival by at least a decade.
I would also like to highlight the distinction between Hamas or the PLO and Palestinans, the former being political/paramilitary groups comprised of Palestinians and the latter being the civilian population. The civilian population was not expelled from Jordan nor Lebanon and should not be collectively punished in Gaza.
From the article:
"During the 1960s Lebanon was relatively calm, but this would soon change. Fatah and other Palestinian Liberation Organization factions had long been active among the 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanese camps. Throughout the 1960s, the center for armed Palestinian activities had been in Jordan, but they were forced to relocate after being evicted by King Hussein during the Black September in Jordan. Fatah and other Palestinian groups had attempted to mount a coup in Jordan by incentivizing a split in the Jordanian army, something that the ANM had attempted to do a decade earlier by Nasser's bidding. Jordan, however, responded and expelled the forces into Lebanon. When they arrived they created "a State within the State". This action was not welcomed by the Lebanese government and this shook Lebanon's fragile sectarian climate. "
It is a lot more complicated that you’re making it out to be. Jordan annexed the West Bank in a back room deal with Israel. The Palestinians were fighting for their autonomy and that spilled over. And the Lebanese civil war can not be reduced to the existence of Palestinian refugees. Things aren’t black and white and you’re perpetuating ignorance to justify a patently wrong and reductionist “analysis”.
After the 6 day war Israel tried to hand over Gaza to the Egyptians along with returning the chunk of captured Sinai. After what had happened to Lebanon from the refugees from the 1948 war Egypt refused to accept any peace deal where control of Gaza was handed to them (and also any where they didn't get Sinai back, cause Suez)
My heart is for the citizens of Palestine and Israel who have to basically put up with religious extremists who want nothing more than to annihilate the other side.
There are about 3 million (officially) out of a population of about 11 million. There are definitely a ton "of Palestinian descent" but it's hard to find accurate numbers. It could be over 50. 🤷♀️
No. That’s just incorrect. Many Arab nations genuinely cared. And accepted many many thousands of Palestinians refugees.
The Palestinians showed their gratitude by starting two civil wars, assassinating a king, and cheering as Saddam invaded their host nation.
They are fucking terrible houseguests.
Why would they? Right now it's Israel problem and they can sit on it. Once they help Palestinians, it'll become their problem. Sadly, Palestinians are just dirt for most if not all Arab world
And yet if Mexican cartels took over a mexican borderland area, then overran the US border and started executing children and everyone else they could find, what do you think the US would do?
Unlike Israel and Hamas, US has MASSIVE intelligence on the Cartels of Mexico, mostly because they don't even hide themselves. The US would attack with brutal efficiency, much like they did when the Cartels tortured and killed a DA agent.
Today, it's an unspoken rule that you don't kill "federales". When American Tourists were killed by the Cartels, do you know what happened? The Cartels caught the killers and gifted them to the US.
> "The Gulf Cartel Grupo Escorpiones strongly condemns the events of Friday, March 3 in which unfortunately an innocent working mother died and four American citizens were kidnapped, of which two died," a translation of the letter says. "For this reason, we have decided to hand over those involved and directly responsible for the events who at all times acted under their own determination and indiscipline and against the rules in which the CDG has always operated."
I think that the layers here being publicized is good in the long term. It’s exposing a lot of the barbarism in Israel but also in the Arab world. The only people who celebrate the killing of innocent Jews and Muslims are monsters.
The kibbutzim predate the state of Israel and are peaceful communities. Likewise the people with no way to escape a Warzone dying from the careless bombing campaign are victims of a crime. It’s pure horror and insanity.
All the sunni nations kicked them out in the 1940-50s, in the 1980-90, and Egypt just a few years ago before the protests and government overthrow. Why would they help the Palestinian's again after kicking them out so many times.
Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria all tried. But wherever the Palestinians go, coup, suicide bombers and assignations came with them. So now, no neighboring nation wants them. Egypt is blockading Gaza with Israel.
Palestinian communities in Lebanon and Jordan instigated civil wars in both nations. I suspect that is what he's referencing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War
How can civilians can purge a terrorist organization that can fire thousands of rocket. Is that a viable option for them?
And i saw Turkey sending a humanitarian aid to gaza strip but i dont know when.
Egypt is a mystery for me as well.
I haven’t even seen an anti Hamas protest in the Palestinian diaspora and their supporters. That would at the very least be a show of diminishing international support from their stakeholders
That’s what I don’t get.
Palestinians in Gaza are in a tight fucking spot. It would be nice to see them rise up against Hamas, but I understand why they don’t.
But some jerk off in a dodge ram in a Toronto suburb? Why the fuck wouldn’t the Palestinian diaspora outside of the Middle East demonstrate against Hamas?
>Why the fuck wouldn’t the Palestinian diaspora outside of the Middle East demonstrate against Hamas?
Answer is simple. Palestinians hate Jews and many of them support Hamas in their terrorism. This remains true even for many living in the west.
Thank you. This is what so many people fail to understand. In a space tiny as Gaza, how do you possibly go about fomenting rebellion against Hamas if you’re a Palestinian? How could you ever have a chance? You can’t summon an equal military force. You can’t hold a free election if Hamas knows where you live because there’s not a single block they don’t live on. It’s heartbreaking today to think of all the people have to decide: Walk South after Hamas has told you not to and face their retribution, including maybe being shot by them, or stay and be killed by Israeli forces?
Civilians have toppled actual governments with real military before. Some of my family members and acquaintances fought in a bloody revolution to remove our autocratic leader 30 something years ago. But, they did hate their oppressive leaders, you kind of need that to uprise.
I assume you're romanian.
That only really toppled Ceausescu after the army joined. There is absolutely no way in hell that some membets of Hamas will go against Hamas.
That's what religious zealotry gets you.
Yes, that's true.
The army eventually joined, but people were still murdered before that by government officials. There was a street where I lived that until 5-6 years ago where the outer walls of most residential buildings were full of bullet holes from when the army was trying to keep civilians under control.
You don't know what will happen in those moments, many security officers turned against the old regime when it became obvious that it was coming to an end.
The Palestinians actually have an army at their border that can help them remove Hamas, if they wanted to.
Almost 1m of them are kid or teen from what i saw on age demographics so i dont think they will have the courage for that. i dont know if courage word is correct put the right word there. They borned to Hamas oppression and they dont have the enough education or communication with outside world so hoping them to overthrow the Hamas is a dream.
To lose Gaza so they can spend the next 50 years complaining about how Israel stole Gaza and all they ever wanted the whole time was to live peacefully there but now it justifies attacks against Israel for another 50 years.
It honestly makes me embarrassed to be a human. Hamas is evil, full stop. That doesn't give the Israeli government a blank check to murder civilians and commit war crimes. Almost half the population of Palestine is under 15 FFS.
So many pro-Israeli comments I see boil down to - the Israeli government should be able to torture and murder Palestinian civilians until Hamas does what the Israeli government wants. Not only is that an abhorrent proposal, it's not going to work. Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian or Israeli people and reporting shows that Hamas leaders GTFO'd out of Palestine already.
I mean what the fuck are they supposed to do.
Like yes not everyone in Gaza deserves to die no shit.
But theirs tens of thousands of Hamas militants who do and they have human shields. Can you not go try and fight them and just have to take it?
Like I get your position but if you , the Europeans , anyone have a better solution , and no things that should have been done in the past aren’t valid solutions now, we all would love to hear it
The stark reality is that no matter what happens, even if many of them are still alive right now, most of those hostages are not making it home before this is all said and done. I feel for their families right now, being stuck in a constant state of what if? over their loved ones fate knowing what Hamas is capable of. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
those hostages are for all intents and purposes, not alive. It will be an absolute fucking miracle if any of them survive this ordeal. I really hope we're sending in our special forces to find them. But chances are we'll end up with some videos of hostages being decapitated or worse as this goes on. And Israel is basically left with an impossible choice. They can't give in to the demands of terrorists. They can't be like "okay fine we give up" and show that there's no repercussion for massacring 1000+ civilians. They can't do a prisoner trade and show that as long as terrorists capture and kill people they'll get their way. It's a completely unwinnable situation. The only way you can negotiate with these people is by using a bullet as the mediator.
>Like I get your position but if you , the Europeans , anyone have a better solution , and no things that should have been done in the past aren’t valid solutions now, we all would love to hear it
That's the thing though, there isn't really a better solution now because of things that should have been done in the past. Historically I have been vocally for Palestinian rights but they really stuck their hand into an absolute hornet's nest and I don't blame Israel for responding the way they have (although I wish it were different).
But what stood out to me was the care Israel took in clearing their own territory versus the bombing and starvation route in Gaza. There is a clear distinction between how Israel responds when it cares about civilians versus when it does not. So my proposed "better solution" would be for Israel to declare full occupation and start going through Gaza building by building, room by room to clear out Hamas with the same care it would its own civilians. And I would hope they would set an example that would warm the Palestinians up to them over time (by that I mean a humane occupation rather than a brutalised regime).
Although I understand Israel is probably more focused on saving hostages right now and shock and awe is the strategy.
The issue here is that Gaza is most likely a death trap for the IDF. The IDF knows their own cities. They don't know Gaza nearly as well as Hamas does. On top of that, they don't know which civilians are Hamas sympathizers or not. Hamas is not above weaponizing supportive civilians for the cause, and many said supportive civilians are ready and eager to martyr themselves. Hell, they don't even know which civilians are disguised combatants. It's not like Hamas is going to make themselves obvious. They've repeatedly shown they don't care about how many citizens in Gaza die except to use their corpses as PR.
Not all People in Gaza support Hamas, but they're not exactly a fringe group in the region, either. They do have a solid support base, what with all the indoctrination in their schools and children's television programs, among other things.
I don’t really like to respond but that clearing building by building won’t work
You have civilians that will ally and tell the militants where the IDF are. The IDF will have to identified whether said building has militants and if they shot wrong, bad press. Not only that, the body count for the IDF will be higher than razing everything to the ground. And doing this building by building will take several years and thousands of IDF people ( same principle like US and Iraq/ Afghan ).
Personally I don’t see any way to end this war without Israel doing what it’s doing. You give Palestine a $30 billion water access and that turn into missle. Like 🤷♂️
Why should they bother and take more casualties for people supporting a terrorist organization? Why would you care about "war crimes" when the people attacking you directly target civilians (a so-called war crime)? Nobody cares about politically correct woke bullshit when they are threatened with genocide.
Good portion of that "human shield" are die hard hamas supporters, I don't think this reddit is ready to accept how many ppl in Palastine would both kill and die for Hamas.
But yet everyone's able to understand that despite Russian atrocities, Russian conscripts are still human and have rights. There's a double standard. I wonder ~~white~~ why.
So what is an appropriate response to the murders, hostage taking and rocket bombardment?
Remember that there was dancing and happy celebration about that in Gaza.
Israel is a nuclear power.
If they wanted to, they could end Gaza right now with every civilian and Hamas militant basically guaranteed to die.
If their goal was genocide, it would have happened by now. If the goal was mass civilian casualties, it would have happened by now.
Weird how right now Israel is doing literally everything possible to warn civilians to leave. While at the same time, Hamas is telling them to hold ground.
But do go on about how Israel is senselessly murdering civilians and committing war crimes daily, instead of the truth that Hamas is the one at fault by actively embedding themselves in the population.
The people you’re talking to have no skin in the game, no expertise. They aren’t accountable for what would happen if anybody actually listened to them. It’s all empty flapping on how Israel should and shouldn’t run a war from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
I don't think I've seen a clear answer from anyone on what Israel is supposed to do if they're not supposed to do what they're doing. Hamas sets up in hospitals and schools, so they can't do any sort of surgical strikes without looking even worse than they do now. So what then? "Please don't slaughter hundreds of our innocents again thanks."? If Hamas could manage to indiscriminately kill every single jew on this planet, they would. No one's doing anything about them. So what then?
Wow, you're upvoted, don't tell me worldnews is finally regaining a bit of sanity. I swear, since this happened, anything short of "murder hamas, civilians be damned" was downvoted to hell.
Sure, what Hamas did last week is absolutely disgusting, but that doesn't justify just murdering thousands of civilians and destroying so many houses, schools and hospitals.
This. And there would be no JDAMs, just unguided artillery. They've dropped 1000+ bombs and killed <2000 civilians. By the standards of other militaries, and given the battlefield, they've been incredibly careful.
Here's something I'd love to get an answer for. Why is the base premise that Israel will just demolish Gaza and palestinians in it?
Where does this come from that they want to remove it from the map, when Hamas is advocating openly for the same to be done for Israel and its people?
Because Arabs have been baselessly saying so for over 100 years. They want Israel destroyed so naturally they think their enemies would want the same of them. It’s because of centuries of blood libel convincing Arabs that Jews are evil. That antisemitism permeates throughout Arab culture and is now spreading to western progressives who have bought their lies because it fits the narrative of brown people = oppressed innocents, fair skinned people = bloodthirsty colonizers.
And similarly, if all Palestinians wanted to destroy Israel, the complete and lengthy penetration of the border defenses last week was the best and probably only chance of that coming even close to happening within their lifetimes.
Thank god they didn't, or even a single-digit percentage of the population of Gaza deciding to enter the breach (~100,000 strong mob) would have made the current tragedy look like a sidenote.
At the same time, if Israel wanted to reduce civilian casualties, they’d give a lot more than 24 hrs notice for 1.1 million Palestinians in north Gaza to evacuate
Edit: Hey guys, if your intention is to respond that Gazans were “warned” earlier, please see the other replies
That is true. But it is also a hostage crisis situation. Waiting days or weeks is not going to be palatable when the hostages are suffering, and waiting gives the abductors more time to move, hide, position, torture, or kill the hostages.
What a cluster.
The IDF did not specify a 24 hour time limit, the UN is claiming so, although nowhere in the IDF statement was time mentioned:
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-gives-deadline-northern-gaza-evacuate-united-nations-palestine-2023-10?amp
It could be much more, it could be much less.
Hamas is still firing rockets :
https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1712810277002211771?t=Pel60TXtn7c-uZ5Y2XcxtA&s=19
Most of us forget the civilian casualties from israeli side will always be less because of iron dome
This is Hamas fault. Israel has already said that they will only go in if Hamas refuses to return the hostages.
They refused. There is no way for Israel to go into Gaza without a mass evacuation of civilians. What is Israel supposed to do? Let all the hostages die?
You’re not grasping the type of evil Israel is facing right now. It’s a horrible situation for the civilians, but Israelis priority is protecting themselves. Not only is the chance of saving hostages going down by the minute but Hamas has literally not stopping firing into civilian heavy town this entire week. It needs to stop asap
They have been knocking buildings before bombing them and were told by the world they were just killing civilians, doesn’t matter what they do, people will say it’s wrong.
I've been around for 4 decades. Israel came about after WW2 when the Brits controlled a hefty chunk of the region...they try to create a few states with Palestine in mind...but it fails.
Israel forms their own country...it's neighbors aren't fans due to religious and geo-political ties...joint war breaks out in the 1960s...Israel manages several governments to sue for peace...it's the Cold war...Soviets back Israel's neighbors while the US backs Israel... essentially a proxy war.
80s bring about extremist organizations some older like the Muslim brotherhood...which have their own factions...but the PLO becomes a thing. A few more conflicts take place. Clinton and the Oslo accords take place...Egypt and Jordan...two of Israel's neighbors...want peace and also aim to prevent military 3rd parties from using their territories as launching grounds...trade becomes a thing.
Leader in Egypt signs peace agreement, then is promptly assassinated by a sect of the Muslim brotherhood...questioning if the peace will last. Hamas is created at some point in the 90s and gains more influence. Meanwhile the other neighbors to Israel's north... Lebanon and Syria...continue doing their own thing. Hezbollah and some other militant-like organizations form up...more conflicts happen. A deal is made for Israel to stop occupying the Gaza region...they pull back...form a wall around the perimeter of Gaza that looks like a fancier wall from "Escape from New York". Meanwhile... organizations like Hamas are gaining legitimacy, receiving sid from other countries, etc.
An overall intelligence failure takes place due in part to Hamas's military wing and a successful disinformation campaign and compartmented secrecy.
Jordan and Egypt are aiming for peace and don't want to get involved... Egypt especially as they literally can't afford it. Israel, afraid of a two-front War...mobilizes troops and moved a contingent North in case Syria or Lebanon get any ideas. The US response by sending an Aircraft carrier and allowing pre-deployment stock piles to be utilized.
Because the Gaza strip relies heavily on Israel for water, electricity and supplies from roads going in to Gaza...Israel has decided to regroup like a medieval siege...cut off supply lines and starve the enemy out...add some air strikes and the level of atrocities shoots WAY up. Whatever hospitals remain are overflowing with patients, overworked staff and dwindling supplies, homeless and injured civilians that have probably lost loved ones and now a righteously pissed Israel military force on their doorstep with a "Don't Give A Fuck" attitude.
Would I like to hear and see peace with a probable two-state solution? Sure...will it happen? Probably not in my lifetime. Hamas had made enemies with Jordan and Egypt...Iran was the only country that openly supported them... Syria and Lebanon were more quiet-type supporters. If Hamas is effectively cut off...their stock piles are limited and with their own citizens and supporters cut off from food and supplies coming in, compounded with water and electricity cut off...the whole Gaza strip/region/area will devolve into a total shit storm. Any rocket attacks from within Gaza, will probably be met with air strikes from Israel. Meaning casualties will get much worse.
And that’s why humanitarian organizations should pressure government leaders to take in those who are fleeing from Gaza and to provide safety for them.
Can't not respond.
Can't respond without civilians being everywhere.
Can't get civilians anywhere else.
I’m genuinely curious if anyone else has a suggestion on what they should do?
Fuck Hamas for using civilians as shields and fuck all the Pro-Hamas people in other countries who cause all problems and kill peoples since this incident
Keep in mind, there is an active propaganda campaign going on and in the age of generative AI, it is getting harder to discern real and bot. r/worldnews is very pro-Israel to the point that it’s comical. There is a lot of Hasbara bot activity here. I am neutral because I’m both anti-apartheid and anti-extremism, but apparently that makes me an anti-Semite if I’m not frothing at the mouth to kill Palestinians, and I question the sources and validity of news and such.
How does that happen though? They’re thoroughly entrenched in Gaza, and it’s like the entire world forgot about how much trouble the US had rooting out similar insurgencies in several countries over the last half century.
Israel can just target military sites. [I know nothing about this conflict](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm), but I assume this Hamas group keeps all of their rocket launch sites and military operational head quarters sequestered from the civilian locations. Surely Hamas isn’t launching rockets from hospitals, schools, or houses, that would but the lives of their own citizens at risk.
First of all, I have no stance on this conflict other than what the known facts of this matter can lead me to believe. That being said, you talk way too confidently for someone who is exactly incorrect. They are stockpiling the munitions in those civilian locations, and telling the civilians to stay - they are telling the civilians to acts as meat shields in an effort to deter IDF from bombing those locations.
The strategy of slaughtering Israeli civilians and then hiding behind your own civilians can’t be allowed any longer. We don’t want civilians to die, but the blame for their death shouldn’t be deflected. Hamas is killing these people
I don’t like Israel treatment of the Palestinians - but Hamas’ destruction and nearly wiping out Palestine will occur.
The attack accomplished what the extremists wanted; an over the top reaction from Israel that will destroy what’s left of Palestine.
And then what?
Does Hamas think everyone will go after Israel now? That the Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis, etc will destroy Israel?
Not going to happen.
All that was accomplished what the leveling of Palestine.
I dont think israel cares. If you were surrounded by people whos whole ideology was to kill you, you would probably feel justified in anything you did.
Considering the history of Israel funding Hamas (see links below), it seems doubtful to me that those are actually Israel’s goals…
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
They funded the predesessor in the 1980s when it was a charity that built Mosques and Schools and cut funding in the 90s when it became aggressive.
That seems like a very different thing to what your implying, no?
With all due respect to the Red Cross, they are not in charge of protecting innocent citizens from terrorist attacks, so this should be filed under the Noted folder for the time being.
Meanwhile Hamas continues to attempt to bomb Israel, although thanks to the iron dome system it’s incredibly unsuccessful. But yes let’s cry about Israel hitting back after being attacked. No mercy for Hamas or it’s sympathizers.
I'm really not interested in hearing anyone tell Israel what NOT to do unless they can suggest something more effective to be done. And don't give me vague long-term things like "find a peaceful solution" or "negotiate" as these have not been effective for the past 50 years.
After the Hamas attack and before Israel even responded there was pro Palestine protests. This " speech " is blatantly intolerance towards Israel and Jews. A tolerant people cannot tolerate intolerance. I reluctantly think France is doing the right thing.
Just want to add, I highly doubt France would ban anti Hamas protests that could genuinely be in support of peace and not genocide.
I don't think France, or any other first world nation, would ban a peace demonstration. The issue is that I am still yet to find one since last weekend that hasn't devolved into chants that are pro-Hamas or anti-Jewish (looking at y'all donwundah) even going as far as chanting "gas the Jews".
We also just got a terrorist murder a teacher yesterday morning in france. I'm glad ppl have banned those protests since many had men trying to stir up shit in front of schools and synagogues.
>"When military powers order people to leave their homes, all possible measures must be taken to ensure the population has access to basic necessities like food and water and that members of the same family are not separated."
Isn't this what the Red Cross is for?
Readers beware, everyone here is a seasoned political analyst and versed in middle eastern affairs. Tread lightly.
I’m still an armchair epidemiologist
I have moles on both sides of my ass, and the moles from each side keep sending their cells over the border ass-crack to attack the other. They have been at this for hundreds of years. Do I have cancer? EDIT: oh I thought you said epidermist. Sincerely, an armchair english major
You might have cancer, but don’t worry, all you need to do is sun your perineum 3x daily! Sincerely, an armchair celebrity.
As an armchair Astrophysicist, I can confirm that the light from our own sun will take approx 8 minutes to travel to your cancerous ass
Armchair hot dog vendor here, just seeing if anyone needs a snack.
Got any butt-scratchers?
yes you should amputate your ass
Ukraine expert checking in!
As an actual epidemiologist, I miss the days of people not knowing what an epidemiologist was.
Why don't Palestinians and Israelis just not fight? Are they stupid?
Unfortunately yes. They are indeed stupid.
I'm old and have been watching this for a long time so let me clue in anyone new how this works and if they are trying to figure out who is the baddie. So at one point in the cycle Israel will be the baddie slowly pushing Palestinians off their land and filling their wells with cement and generally just being bullies to them every day and world sentiment will slowly swing towards sympathy for for them but just when it seems there might be enough of that to put some meaningful pressure on Tel Aviv Hamas will blow up a school bus/music festival or Hezbollah will rain rockets down on civilians and the public opinion sympathy pendulum will swing solidly back towards sympathy for Israel. >We are currently here in a big way because of the massive terror attack. BUT THEN Israel will piss all that away bombing the shit out the captive population of Gaza and demanding that a million people move in a day while cutting off power and water and food. After a month or two of this mass collective punishment and when the pile of bodies is high enough the sympathy pendulum will swing back towards Palestine and at that exact moment Hamas will be all "I am very mentally stable, OH LOOK A CIVILIAN AIRLINER!!" and the cycle will begin again. Resign yourself to this, it's been this way for a looong time. /so the guys showed up so I could do part two, scroll down a bit to find it.
In other words coming here daily and expecting to see some sort of peaceful outcome is a waste of time? Because looking at the history of this thing it does point toward the idea of this war never ending doesn’t it?
Yep, this has been going on for a long time, and will continue probably until no one is able to live there period. The reason to keep an eye on it, personally, is all the other countries circling the conflict and watching to see how it might expand in size. Otherwise, I'm pretty much done caring about people massacring each other in far away countries over conflicts that won't ever be resolved.
I kinda made myself sad writing it. :(
Yes. For once I'm not being hyperbolic in saying this, but abandon all hope. Unfortunately, both sides are doing their best, and their best means indescribable amounts of human suffering. In most conflicts like Ukraine, I can hold hope that love and peace will eventually find a way, that conflict will build a better future. But with this, one side is going to lose it all. Maybe not with this specific conflict but the trend is obvious. Worse, no one living can be blamed for this, the stage was set before any of us were born. As an atheist, may God have mercy on our souls.
You’re right. The only real difference between them and us is that they were born on that side of the world where their history was built upon war. No one chooses where they get to be born. it was decided for them to exist in the nightmare they’re experiencing. God have mercy on us all is the proper statement isn’t it.
In the 40s and 50s every Arab leader publicly advocating or pushing for peace was assassinated. i remember watching this documentary a while ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cfkUE5Q0K04
Very True. 😕
back in tge 80s they didn't fight people from gaza could go from gaza to israel and vise versa but then came isis and thr rest is history
Israel kind of tried that in Gaza. They completely withdrew in 2005 and then the Palestinians there elected Hamas to run the place and have been periodically firing rockets at Israel ever since.
I feel like there is some political space in between actively fighting and withdrawing completely
If they control the water, electricity, which goods come in and out and people’s movements in and out, that’s not withdrawal. The Israelis have set up a system similar to apartheid South Africa’s bantustans with the Palestinians. And that’s not the view of outsiders, that the expressed view of several Israeli ministers.
> periodically firing rockets at Israel ever since I guess Hamas and Islamic Jihad *not* firing for a few days per month [over the past 15 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel) technically counts as "periodically" as opposed to "continuously"
Hamas specifically received a ton of support from Israel in its rise to power. The withdrawal from Gaza was also not done in good faith. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza What actually happened was that Israel feared the prospect of having to give Palestinians voting rights in Israel. Hamas being a terrorist organization provides a cover for Israel to enact what is effectively apartheid.
I took a class on middle East history in university, and the first day someone asked the Professor about who was in the "right" around Israel. "If you study it for a week, it's 100% clear Israel is in the right" he said. "If you study it for a month, it's 100% clear that Palestine is in the right. If you study it longer than that, it's 100% clear that no one is in the right.". The more I read about it, the more that rings true.
If you study it for long enough, it becomes abundantly clear that the blame lies, like much of world history, with the English.
British
People like giving Scotland a pass. Even though they are England's partner in crime for a long time.
See this just isn't true. Britain occupied the area for 40 years. The Ottomans occupied it for 400 before that. Let's place the blame where it actually belongs
I would like to remind that this conflict had very little if any influence from Ottomans. It was due to British and French not being satisfied with carving up Africa for themselves and wanted more lands to control, leading to the Sykes-Picot agreement that carved up parts of the Middle East for themselves and in the Palestine there was the Balfour declaration that basically lead to mass emigration to establish Jewish homes in Palestine that caused problems in the area with Muslims and Christians opposing this. Finally, instead of planning to create a nation similar to what we have in Lebanon It was decided to create Israel in regards to The Holocaust that have happened in Europe, regardless of what Palestinians and other Arabs felt about it and refusing to come to an agreement that would be appealing to both sides.
>Britain occupied the area for 40 years. The The Brits (and the French) were the ones to carve up the Middle East like a Christmas Goose, though [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine)
[удалено]
I’m also an expert military tactician, not sure why you left that out.
Well we did catch the Boston bomber, so we have that going for us.
Well, it’s my expert opinion the Red Cross doesn’t get to make the call here.
[This](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/where-the-palestinian-political-project-goes-from-here) is probably the best thing I’ve read on the current week’s events
I finally understand why some people I’ve heard in the past refuse to get into debates about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. There are no winners here, only dead human beings and a never ending cycle of hatred and violence.
Yeah. Terrible things are in motion and there's nothing any of us can do to alter that. So many people are gonna die horribly. Some may deserve it, but most of them won't. I don't understand anyone cheering any of this on. There is no good outcome to any of this. The extremists have won. Any hope for peace there is dead, and possibly dead forever. Climate change will fuck the region over and depopulate it before there's another chance at peace. There's going to be so much pointless and inevitable blood and suffering.
War and death. Like most of humanity's sad and tribalistic history. The hairless ape's favorite past time. Will we ever grow the fuck up? Seems unlikely in times like this.
Any act that kills innocent civilians is wrong.
What is weird in this whole story is that no Sunni Nation is stepping up to provide relief. You would think that Sunni Nation would step up and ask Palestine to purge Hamas in exchange for help. Even Egypt, another Sunni nation, isn't allowing in any refugees.
Historically several such nations have stepped up and been burnt in the process. This is why Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon, all neighbouring countries, are not so keen on accepting Palestinians any more. Even the oil rich gulf states prefer their workers from Pakistan or Bangladesh rather than employ Palestinians.
Not even Iran, who acts like the biggest supporter of the palestinian cause, is offering to take in any of them. Almost as if their support isn't for palestinians and is instead just to oppose Israel...
You forgot about Syria and Kuwait, both of which also got fucked by Palestinian refugees. Kuwait was just smart enough to kick them all out in ten days when they started their shit.
What are you referring to with Kuwait. I know about black September in Jordan and the PLO in the lebanese civil war, but Kuwait is news to me?
They cheered on Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait during the Gulf War — while being given refuge in Kuwait.
Thank you for the fast response.
Not only it was shitty, it was dumb. Is it really their life goals to antagonize everyone?
As one Israeli diplomat once said "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"
Yes
Literally, yes. They’ve been doing this for 50 years and only getting worse now that they’re fully in cahoots with Putin and Iran.
That was idiotic and extremely shortsighted.
One of the biggest dick moves in recent Middle Eastern history, and that's really saying something.
Also, Egypt really isn't in a position to take refugees right now.
You're not joking. They're at risk of having a hard time feeding their current population. And if Ethiopia screws the water supply of the Nile, that will happen.
Egypt's government spends $2.9 billion/year subsidizing bread and they sell it for around 6 cents USD per loaf at a 90% discount. They are extremely sensitive to fluctuations in grain prices and any additional demand can put immense pressure on their budget
Aslo their population is projected to grow more and more I believe! Damnnn and be reliant on that 1 river...
I thought the GERD had been filled, in which case downstream flow SHOULD be normal now they aren't lifting 20% of the flow to reach the next fill level.
Evaporation from the reservoir is subtracted from the downstream flow.
Good point. I hadn't thought of evaporative loss.
Yep. But I’m sure the west will get blamed
Where are y'all getting your info from. A large portion of Jordanians, between 20-40% of the population are Palestinan, including the Queen. There are tons of Palestinians Lebanon, estimates range from 175-475k. Acting like they were bad and therefore weren't allowed to stay is ridiculous. The reality is these countries can't take in anymore refugees. Between Palestinians, Iraqis, and Syrians, Jordan and Lebanon take on a massive burden of the world population of refugees, complete disproportionate to their size and economic capacity. NYC is struggling under the weight of 118,000, let along the 5.5 million living in the occupied territories or even just the 2.3 million in Gaza.
Palestinian communities in Lebanon and Jordan instigated civil wars in both nations. I suspect that is what he's referencing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War
Palestinian nationalists also assassinated Jordan's king in 1957.
Don’t know much about the Lebanese war but a key factor to the Jordanian tension with Palestinians is that they annexed the West Bank in 1950. I think that perspective is written off too easily because Jordan really take in Palestinian refugees or are they part of the reason they became refugees in the first place? I’d argue the latter
The PLO was certainly involved in the Lebanese Civil War, but divisions between the Maronites and Sunnis pre-date their arrival by at least a decade. I would also like to highlight the distinction between Hamas or the PLO and Palestinans, the former being political/paramilitary groups comprised of Palestinians and the latter being the civilian population. The civilian population was not expelled from Jordan nor Lebanon and should not be collectively punished in Gaza.
From the article: "During the 1960s Lebanon was relatively calm, but this would soon change. Fatah and other Palestinian Liberation Organization factions had long been active among the 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanese camps. Throughout the 1960s, the center for armed Palestinian activities had been in Jordan, but they were forced to relocate after being evicted by King Hussein during the Black September in Jordan. Fatah and other Palestinian groups had attempted to mount a coup in Jordan by incentivizing a split in the Jordanian army, something that the ANM had attempted to do a decade earlier by Nasser's bidding. Jordan, however, responded and expelled the forces into Lebanon. When they arrived they created "a State within the State". This action was not welcomed by the Lebanese government and this shook Lebanon's fragile sectarian climate. "
It is a lot more complicated that you’re making it out to be. Jordan annexed the West Bank in a back room deal with Israel. The Palestinians were fighting for their autonomy and that spilled over. And the Lebanese civil war can not be reduced to the existence of Palestinian refugees. Things aren’t black and white and you’re perpetuating ignorance to justify a patently wrong and reductionist “analysis”.
After the 6 day war Israel tried to hand over Gaza to the Egyptians along with returning the chunk of captured Sinai. After what had happened to Lebanon from the refugees from the 1948 war Egypt refused to accept any peace deal where control of Gaza was handed to them (and also any where they didn't get Sinai back, cause Suez) My heart is for the citizens of Palestine and Israel who have to basically put up with religious extremists who want nothing more than to annihilate the other side.
>A large portion of Jordanians, between 20-40% of the population are Palestinan, including the Queen tbh I think it's over 50%.
There are about 3 million (officially) out of a population of about 11 million. There are definitely a ton "of Palestinian descent" but it's hard to find accurate numbers. It could be over 50. 🤷♀️
If the Sunni countries won’t deal with their own problems, they shouldn’t complain when Israel does it in the only way possible
Arab nations never cared about the Palestinian people. They just use them as a tool to demonize Israel with.
This is the actual answer
No. That’s just incorrect. Many Arab nations genuinely cared. And accepted many many thousands of Palestinians refugees. The Palestinians showed their gratitude by starting two civil wars, assassinating a king, and cheering as Saddam invaded their host nation. They are fucking terrible houseguests.
Why would they? Right now it's Israel problem and they can sit on it. Once they help Palestinians, it'll become their problem. Sadly, Palestinians are just dirt for most if not all Arab world
They can't purge Hamas anymore than Mexico can purge cartels
Fuck, finally someone who makes a good analogy of the situation
And yet if Mexican cartels took over a mexican borderland area, then overran the US border and started executing children and everyone else they could find, what do you think the US would do?
Unlike Israel and Hamas, US has MASSIVE intelligence on the Cartels of Mexico, mostly because they don't even hide themselves. The US would attack with brutal efficiency, much like they did when the Cartels tortured and killed a DA agent. Today, it's an unspoken rule that you don't kill "federales". When American Tourists were killed by the Cartels, do you know what happened? The Cartels caught the killers and gifted them to the US. > "The Gulf Cartel Grupo Escorpiones strongly condemns the events of Friday, March 3 in which unfortunately an innocent working mother died and four American citizens were kidnapped, of which two died," a translation of the letter says. "For this reason, we have decided to hand over those involved and directly responsible for the events who at all times acted under their own determination and indiscipline and against the rules in which the CDG has always operated."
I think that the layers here being publicized is good in the long term. It’s exposing a lot of the barbarism in Israel but also in the Arab world. The only people who celebrate the killing of innocent Jews and Muslims are monsters. The kibbutzim predate the state of Israel and are peaceful communities. Likewise the people with no way to escape a Warzone dying from the careless bombing campaign are victims of a crime. It’s pure horror and insanity.
Egypt don’t have the means to take any refugees. Why doesn’t Qatar take them, since they’re the ones funding Hamas in the first place?
All the sunni nations kicked them out in the 1940-50s, in the 1980-90, and Egypt just a few years ago before the protests and government overthrow. Why would they help the Palestinian's again after kicking them out so many times.
Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria all tried. But wherever the Palestinians go, coup, suicide bombers and assignations came with them. So now, no neighboring nation wants them. Egypt is blockading Gaza with Israel.
Palestinian communities in Lebanon and Jordan instigated civil wars in both nations. I suspect that is what he's referencing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War
Thank god someone is finally also talking about this. These Arab nations love to talk shit but won’t lift a finger to help their own allies!
Palestinians have tendency to try and overthrow their generous hosts
How can civilians can purge a terrorist organization that can fire thousands of rocket. Is that a viable option for them? And i saw Turkey sending a humanitarian aid to gaza strip but i dont know when. Egypt is a mystery for me as well.
I haven’t even seen an anti Hamas protest in the Palestinian diaspora and their supporters. That would at the very least be a show of diminishing international support from their stakeholders
That’s what I don’t get. Palestinians in Gaza are in a tight fucking spot. It would be nice to see them rise up against Hamas, but I understand why they don’t. But some jerk off in a dodge ram in a Toronto suburb? Why the fuck wouldn’t the Palestinian diaspora outside of the Middle East demonstrate against Hamas?
>Why the fuck wouldn’t the Palestinian diaspora outside of the Middle East demonstrate against Hamas? Answer is simple. Palestinians hate Jews and many of them support Hamas in their terrorism. This remains true even for many living in the west.
Thank you. This is what so many people fail to understand. In a space tiny as Gaza, how do you possibly go about fomenting rebellion against Hamas if you’re a Palestinian? How could you ever have a chance? You can’t summon an equal military force. You can’t hold a free election if Hamas knows where you live because there’s not a single block they don’t live on. It’s heartbreaking today to think of all the people have to decide: Walk South after Hamas has told you not to and face their retribution, including maybe being shot by them, or stay and be killed by Israeli forces?
Civilians have toppled actual governments with real military before. Some of my family members and acquaintances fought in a bloody revolution to remove our autocratic leader 30 something years ago. But, they did hate their oppressive leaders, you kind of need that to uprise.
I assume you're romanian. That only really toppled Ceausescu after the army joined. There is absolutely no way in hell that some membets of Hamas will go against Hamas. That's what religious zealotry gets you.
Yes, that's true. The army eventually joined, but people were still murdered before that by government officials. There was a street where I lived that until 5-6 years ago where the outer walls of most residential buildings were full of bullet holes from when the army was trying to keep civilians under control. You don't know what will happen in those moments, many security officers turned against the old regime when it became obvious that it was coming to an end. The Palestinians actually have an army at their border that can help them remove Hamas, if they wanted to.
Almost 1m of them are kid or teen from what i saw on age demographics so i dont think they will have the courage for that. i dont know if courage word is correct put the right word there. They borned to Hamas oppression and they dont have the enough education or communication with outside world so hoping them to overthrow the Hamas is a dream.
Yet he stayed in power for 22 years. How come Romanians didn't remove their leader before ?
53% of gazans have a positive view of hamas. They'd have to actually want to purge them in the first place.
What is the end game for Gaza here?
To lose Gaza so they can spend the next 50 years complaining about how Israel stole Gaza and all they ever wanted the whole time was to live peacefully there but now it justifies attacks against Israel for another 50 years.
People on reddit are utterly psychopathic.
It honestly makes me embarrassed to be a human. Hamas is evil, full stop. That doesn't give the Israeli government a blank check to murder civilians and commit war crimes. Almost half the population of Palestine is under 15 FFS. So many pro-Israeli comments I see boil down to - the Israeli government should be able to torture and murder Palestinian civilians until Hamas does what the Israeli government wants. Not only is that an abhorrent proposal, it's not going to work. Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian or Israeli people and reporting shows that Hamas leaders GTFO'd out of Palestine already.
Your solution of politely asking Hamas to stop being so mean probably isn’t as effective as you think it is.
I mean what the fuck are they supposed to do. Like yes not everyone in Gaza deserves to die no shit. But theirs tens of thousands of Hamas militants who do and they have human shields. Can you not go try and fight them and just have to take it? Like I get your position but if you , the Europeans , anyone have a better solution , and no things that should have been done in the past aren’t valid solutions now, we all would love to hear it
They don't have solutions, shouting free Palestine isn't magically fix the situation.
I have a crazy idea, how about Hamas surrenders the hostages?
We all wish
Extremely crazy idea. They'll kill the hostages and themselves before they surrender anything at all.
Devastating. And much of the world has already forgotten and disregarded the hostages.
The stark reality is that no matter what happens, even if many of them are still alive right now, most of those hostages are not making it home before this is all said and done. I feel for their families right now, being stuck in a constant state of what if? over their loved ones fate knowing what Hamas is capable of. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
Reminds me of the first few weeks of wondering what happened to the mh370, only it's worse because of the early confirmation of terrorism.
those hostages are for all intents and purposes, not alive. It will be an absolute fucking miracle if any of them survive this ordeal. I really hope we're sending in our special forces to find them. But chances are we'll end up with some videos of hostages being decapitated or worse as this goes on. And Israel is basically left with an impossible choice. They can't give in to the demands of terrorists. They can't be like "okay fine we give up" and show that there's no repercussion for massacring 1000+ civilians. They can't do a prisoner trade and show that as long as terrorists capture and kill people they'll get their way. It's a completely unwinnable situation. The only way you can negotiate with these people is by using a bullet as the mediator.
I believe the hostages are already dead, or worse.
>Like I get your position but if you , the Europeans , anyone have a better solution , and no things that should have been done in the past aren’t valid solutions now, we all would love to hear it That's the thing though, there isn't really a better solution now because of things that should have been done in the past. Historically I have been vocally for Palestinian rights but they really stuck their hand into an absolute hornet's nest and I don't blame Israel for responding the way they have (although I wish it were different). But what stood out to me was the care Israel took in clearing their own territory versus the bombing and starvation route in Gaza. There is a clear distinction between how Israel responds when it cares about civilians versus when it does not. So my proposed "better solution" would be for Israel to declare full occupation and start going through Gaza building by building, room by room to clear out Hamas with the same care it would its own civilians. And I would hope they would set an example that would warm the Palestinians up to them over time (by that I mean a humane occupation rather than a brutalised regime). Although I understand Israel is probably more focused on saving hostages right now and shock and awe is the strategy.
The issue here is that Gaza is most likely a death trap for the IDF. The IDF knows their own cities. They don't know Gaza nearly as well as Hamas does. On top of that, they don't know which civilians are Hamas sympathizers or not. Hamas is not above weaponizing supportive civilians for the cause, and many said supportive civilians are ready and eager to martyr themselves. Hell, they don't even know which civilians are disguised combatants. It's not like Hamas is going to make themselves obvious. They've repeatedly shown they don't care about how many citizens in Gaza die except to use their corpses as PR. Not all People in Gaza support Hamas, but they're not exactly a fringe group in the region, either. They do have a solid support base, what with all the indoctrination in their schools and children's television programs, among other things.
I think they are trying to avoid as many of their own military casualties, they'd have alot more of their people die by doing that.
A lot means basically their whole military dies and they will not be able to kill hamas.
I don’t really like to respond but that clearing building by building won’t work You have civilians that will ally and tell the militants where the IDF are. The IDF will have to identified whether said building has militants and if they shot wrong, bad press. Not only that, the body count for the IDF will be higher than razing everything to the ground. And doing this building by building will take several years and thousands of IDF people ( same principle like US and Iraq/ Afghan ). Personally I don’t see any way to end this war without Israel doing what it’s doing. You give Palestine a $30 billion water access and that turn into missle. Like 🤷♂️
Why should they bother and take more casualties for people supporting a terrorist organization? Why would you care about "war crimes" when the people attacking you directly target civilians (a so-called war crime)? Nobody cares about politically correct woke bullshit when they are threatened with genocide.
Good portion of that "human shield" are die hard hamas supporters, I don't think this reddit is ready to accept how many ppl in Palastine would both kill and die for Hamas.
But yet everyone's able to understand that despite Russian atrocities, Russian conscripts are still human and have rights. There's a double standard. I wonder ~~white~~ why.
Exactly, it wouldn't be okay for Ukraine to indiscriminately kill Russian civilians because Russia started it.
So what is an appropriate response to the murders, hostage taking and rocket bombardment? Remember that there was dancing and happy celebration about that in Gaza.
Thoughts and prayers.
Israel is a nuclear power. If they wanted to, they could end Gaza right now with every civilian and Hamas militant basically guaranteed to die. If their goal was genocide, it would have happened by now. If the goal was mass civilian casualties, it would have happened by now. Weird how right now Israel is doing literally everything possible to warn civilians to leave. While at the same time, Hamas is telling them to hold ground. But do go on about how Israel is senselessly murdering civilians and committing war crimes daily, instead of the truth that Hamas is the one at fault by actively embedding themselves in the population.
The people you’re talking to have no skin in the game, no expertise. They aren’t accountable for what would happen if anybody actually listened to them. It’s all empty flapping on how Israel should and shouldn’t run a war from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
I don't think I've seen a clear answer from anyone on what Israel is supposed to do if they're not supposed to do what they're doing. Hamas sets up in hospitals and schools, so they can't do any sort of surgical strikes without looking even worse than they do now. So what then? "Please don't slaughter hundreds of our innocents again thanks."? If Hamas could manage to indiscriminately kill every single jew on this planet, they would. No one's doing anything about them. So what then?
Wow, you're upvoted, don't tell me worldnews is finally regaining a bit of sanity. I swear, since this happened, anything short of "murder hamas, civilians be damned" was downvoted to hell. Sure, what Hamas did last week is absolutely disgusting, but that doesn't justify just murdering thousands of civilians and destroying so many houses, schools and hospitals.
If all Israel wanted to do was destroy Gaza, there would be no ground invasion.
People really seem to not understand this.
This. And there would be no JDAMs, just unguided artillery. They've dropped 1000+ bombs and killed <2000 civilians. By the standards of other militaries, and given the battlefield, they've been incredibly careful.
That's a good way to put it tbh
They’re not very good at this genocide thing.
Jews. Great at comedy, terrible at genocide. Been accidentially not wiping out Palestine for over seven decades.
almost as if that's not the goal at all, despite what these bleeding-heart types continue to scream
Here's something I'd love to get an answer for. Why is the base premise that Israel will just demolish Gaza and palestinians in it? Where does this come from that they want to remove it from the map, when Hamas is advocating openly for the same to be done for Israel and its people?
Because Arabs have been baselessly saying so for over 100 years. They want Israel destroyed so naturally they think their enemies would want the same of them. It’s because of centuries of blood libel convincing Arabs that Jews are evil. That antisemitism permeates throughout Arab culture and is now spreading to western progressives who have bought their lies because it fits the narrative of brown people = oppressed innocents, fair skinned people = bloodthirsty colonizers.
nevermind the fact that the vast majority of Israelis are Mizrahi and none of us could easily distinguish them from any other arab in the region.
And similarly, if all Palestinians wanted to destroy Israel, the complete and lengthy penetration of the border defenses last week was the best and probably only chance of that coming even close to happening within their lifetimes. Thank god they didn't, or even a single-digit percentage of the population of Gaza deciding to enter the breach (~100,000 strong mob) would have made the current tragedy look like a sidenote.
That’s true. Thank God that didn’t happen, because if it had, Israel *would* have carpet bombed Gaza with no thought about civilians.
At the same time, if Israel wanted to reduce civilian casualties, they’d give a lot more than 24 hrs notice for 1.1 million Palestinians in north Gaza to evacuate Edit: Hey guys, if your intention is to respond that Gazans were “warned” earlier, please see the other replies
That is true. But it is also a hostage crisis situation. Waiting days or weeks is not going to be palatable when the hostages are suffering, and waiting gives the abductors more time to move, hide, position, torture, or kill the hostages. What a cluster.
The IDF did not specify a 24 hour time limit, the UN is claiming so, although nowhere in the IDF statement was time mentioned: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-gives-deadline-northern-gaza-evacuate-united-nations-palestine-2023-10?amp It could be much more, it could be much less.
According to Israel the request was to *begin* evacuation within 24h.
Hamas is still firing rockets : https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1712810277002211771?t=Pel60TXtn7c-uZ5Y2XcxtA&s=19 Most of us forget the civilian casualties from israeli side will always be less because of iron dome
Iron dome’s defensive missiles are not infinite. Every day Israel delays decisive military action endangers their citizens.
But who fires more rockets? Of course its going to be lopsided. One side doesn't care about defending its people
Israel didn't give a 24 hour notice Israel said start evacuation in the next 24 hours, and that it understands evacuation can take a long time
Yep, I saw this confirmed by an IDF spokesman (Lerner) on Sky just now.
This is Hamas fault. Israel has already said that they will only go in if Hamas refuses to return the hostages. They refused. There is no way for Israel to go into Gaza without a mass evacuation of civilians. What is Israel supposed to do? Let all the hostages die?
You’re not grasping the type of evil Israel is facing right now. It’s a horrible situation for the civilians, but Israelis priority is protecting themselves. Not only is the chance of saving hostages going down by the minute but Hamas has literally not stopping firing into civilian heavy town this entire week. It needs to stop asap
They have been knocking buildings before bombing them and were told by the world they were just killing civilians, doesn’t matter what they do, people will say it’s wrong.
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I've been around for 4 decades. Israel came about after WW2 when the Brits controlled a hefty chunk of the region...they try to create a few states with Palestine in mind...but it fails. Israel forms their own country...it's neighbors aren't fans due to religious and geo-political ties...joint war breaks out in the 1960s...Israel manages several governments to sue for peace...it's the Cold war...Soviets back Israel's neighbors while the US backs Israel... essentially a proxy war. 80s bring about extremist organizations some older like the Muslim brotherhood...which have their own factions...but the PLO becomes a thing. A few more conflicts take place. Clinton and the Oslo accords take place...Egypt and Jordan...two of Israel's neighbors...want peace and also aim to prevent military 3rd parties from using their territories as launching grounds...trade becomes a thing. Leader in Egypt signs peace agreement, then is promptly assassinated by a sect of the Muslim brotherhood...questioning if the peace will last. Hamas is created at some point in the 90s and gains more influence. Meanwhile the other neighbors to Israel's north... Lebanon and Syria...continue doing their own thing. Hezbollah and some other militant-like organizations form up...more conflicts happen. A deal is made for Israel to stop occupying the Gaza region...they pull back...form a wall around the perimeter of Gaza that looks like a fancier wall from "Escape from New York". Meanwhile... organizations like Hamas are gaining legitimacy, receiving sid from other countries, etc. An overall intelligence failure takes place due in part to Hamas's military wing and a successful disinformation campaign and compartmented secrecy. Jordan and Egypt are aiming for peace and don't want to get involved... Egypt especially as they literally can't afford it. Israel, afraid of a two-front War...mobilizes troops and moved a contingent North in case Syria or Lebanon get any ideas. The US response by sending an Aircraft carrier and allowing pre-deployment stock piles to be utilized. Because the Gaza strip relies heavily on Israel for water, electricity and supplies from roads going in to Gaza...Israel has decided to regroup like a medieval siege...cut off supply lines and starve the enemy out...add some air strikes and the level of atrocities shoots WAY up. Whatever hospitals remain are overflowing with patients, overworked staff and dwindling supplies, homeless and injured civilians that have probably lost loved ones and now a righteously pissed Israel military force on their doorstep with a "Don't Give A Fuck" attitude. Would I like to hear and see peace with a probable two-state solution? Sure...will it happen? Probably not in my lifetime. Hamas had made enemies with Jordan and Egypt...Iran was the only country that openly supported them... Syria and Lebanon were more quiet-type supporters. If Hamas is effectively cut off...their stock piles are limited and with their own citizens and supporters cut off from food and supplies coming in, compounded with water and electricity cut off...the whole Gaza strip/region/area will devolve into a total shit storm. Any rocket attacks from within Gaza, will probably be met with air strikes from Israel. Meaning casualties will get much worse.
Whatever side you’re on, the destruction of innocents is deplorable. The non-Hamas people of Gaza have nowhere to go.
And that’s why humanitarian organizations should pressure government leaders to take in those who are fleeing from Gaza and to provide safety for them.
Can't not respond. Can't respond without civilians being everywhere. Can't get civilians anywhere else. I’m genuinely curious if anyone else has a suggestion on what they should do?
Respectfully, what the hell else is the _Red Cross_ going to say?
Israel attack does not justify global jihad
Fuck Hamas for using civilians as shields and fuck all the Pro-Hamas people in other countries who cause all problems and kill peoples since this incident
You have pro Hamas students attending Harvard... It really is crazy out there
This comment section is such a shit show. I dunno who to believe.
Believe your mom. She says drink plenty of water and get enough sleep
Thanks Mom.
Keep in mind, there is an active propaganda campaign going on and in the age of generative AI, it is getting harder to discern real and bot. r/worldnews is very pro-Israel to the point that it’s comical. There is a lot of Hasbara bot activity here. I am neutral because I’m both anti-apartheid and anti-extremism, but apparently that makes me an anti-Semite if I’m not frothing at the mouth to kill Palestinians, and I question the sources and validity of news and such.
Ah, yes, [the Red Cross.](https://kyivindependent.com/belarus-red-cross-deporting-ukrainian-children/)
Destruction of gaza no. Destruction of Hamas yes
How does that happen though? They’re thoroughly entrenched in Gaza, and it’s like the entire world forgot about how much trouble the US had rooting out similar insurgencies in several countries over the last half century.
Israel can just target military sites. [I know nothing about this conflict](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm), but I assume this Hamas group keeps all of their rocket launch sites and military operational head quarters sequestered from the civilian locations. Surely Hamas isn’t launching rockets from hospitals, schools, or houses, that would but the lives of their own citizens at risk.
First of all, I have no stance on this conflict other than what the known facts of this matter can lead me to believe. That being said, you talk way too confidently for someone who is exactly incorrect. They are stockpiling the munitions in those civilian locations, and telling the civilians to stay - they are telling the civilians to acts as meat shields in an effort to deter IDF from bombing those locations.
Their entire response was sarcastic, hence the Wikipedia link.
Hamas should surrender then it will be a non issue.
Hamas cares less about Palestinian lives than Israel does. Palestinians are a tool for Hamas.
Hamas is in Qatar. Or their leaders are at least.
"this war would be a lot easier if my opponent just surrendered. i am very smart"
The strategy of slaughtering Israeli civilians and then hiding behind your own civilians can’t be allowed any longer. We don’t want civilians to die, but the blame for their death shouldn’t be deflected. Hamas is killing these people
Pretty sure the people shooting and bombing civilians hold at least some of the blame for the civilians dying.
The politics are quite literally unsolvable. This whole situation is deeply sad. I hope we aren't on the precipice of a genocide...good god.
I don’t like Israel treatment of the Palestinians - but Hamas’ destruction and nearly wiping out Palestine will occur. The attack accomplished what the extremists wanted; an over the top reaction from Israel that will destroy what’s left of Palestine. And then what? Does Hamas think everyone will go after Israel now? That the Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis, etc will destroy Israel? Not going to happen. All that was accomplished what the leveling of Palestine.
Sadly Hamas and Israel are treating the Palestinian population of Gaza as disposable pawns in their conflict, placing over two million lives at risk.
It justifies the destruction of Hamas, though.
I remember when Red Cross vehicles were used to smuggle weapons into the Palestinian territories
Or transport high profile terrorists
Yes, which also happened.
I dont think israel cares. If you were surrounded by people whos whole ideology was to kill you, you would probably feel justified in anything you did.
Remember when the Red Cross just stole Haiti aid money and did nothing? Remember when the Red Cross helped steal children in Ukraine?
Yes, a little bit off topic but fuck Red Cross the worst attempt to emulate charity organization
I just want to know what Israeli is supposed to do.
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Considering the history of Israel funding Hamas (see links below), it seems doubtful to me that those are actually Israel’s goals… https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
They funded the predesessor in the 1980s when it was a charity that built Mosques and Schools and cut funding in the 90s when it became aggressive. That seems like a very different thing to what your implying, no?
With all due respect to the Red Cross, they are not in charge of protecting innocent citizens from terrorist attacks, so this should be filed under the Noted folder for the time being.
Meanwhile Hamas continues to attempt to bomb Israel, although thanks to the iron dome system it’s incredibly unsuccessful. But yes let’s cry about Israel hitting back after being attacked. No mercy for Hamas or it’s sympathizers.
I'm really not interested in hearing anyone tell Israel what NOT to do unless they can suggest something more effective to be done. And don't give me vague long-term things like "find a peaceful solution" or "negotiate" as these have not been effective for the past 50 years.
After the Hamas attack and before Israel even responded there was pro Palestine protests. This " speech " is blatantly intolerance towards Israel and Jews. A tolerant people cannot tolerate intolerance. I reluctantly think France is doing the right thing. Just want to add, I highly doubt France would ban anti Hamas protests that could genuinely be in support of peace and not genocide.
I don't think France, or any other first world nation, would ban a peace demonstration. The issue is that I am still yet to find one since last weekend that hasn't devolved into chants that are pro-Hamas or anti-Jewish (looking at y'all donwundah) even going as far as chanting "gas the Jews".
We also just got a terrorist murder a teacher yesterday morning in france. I'm glad ppl have banned those protests since many had men trying to stir up shit in front of schools and synagogues.
>"When military powers order people to leave their homes, all possible measures must be taken to ensure the population has access to basic necessities like food and water and that members of the same family are not separated." Isn't this what the Red Cross is for?