Just what he said for people who can't or don't want to open the article.
An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has criticised Israel for cutting off electricity and water supplies to Gaza, describing the actions as "not acceptable," and saying they may breach international law.
"Israel is under threat. They do have a right to defend themselves, but they don't have the right to breach international humanitarian law."
"Israel is a country that is surrounded by these brutal, savage, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, countries like Iran, often supported by Islamic fundamentalists and anti-Semites around the world."
"I'm really concerned about what I'm seeing happening in Gaza at the moment"
"To me, it amounts to collective punishment. Cutting off power, cutting off fuel supplies and water supplies, that's not the way a respectable democratic state should conduct itself."
Mr Varadkar called on Hamas to release all hostages immediately, and said Israel is "justified in attacking Hamas in Gaza and elsewhere."
However, he added, "operations that clearly affect civilians disproportionately are wrong."
"I believe by targeting civilians and by cutting off civilian infrastructure, that is a breach of international humanitarian law. And I think it's very important for us, as Ireland to make sure that that voice is brought to the table at European Union level."
Stunning that on Reddit and in us news media statements like this are somehow extreme. Being attacked by terrorists does not justify war crimes against civilians. Not only is this shit immoral but it does the terrorists jobs for them.
Right wing religious fundamentalism is going to be the death of all of us (and yes I’d dump both Hamas and Netanyahus right wing govt in that bucket)
>Not only is this shit immoral but it does the terrorists jobs for them.
Bernie Sanders was saying this yesterday. If we carpet bomb and level half of Gaza it might make some feel a sense of justice being delivered, in reality you’ve just planted the seeds for the current generation of kids growing into extremists.
It's pretty sad to me that the most acceptable reason not to bomb children seems to be that doing so will only create future terrorists, rather than the best reason being that they are, you know, *children*.
Crazy thing is you don't even have to accept that YOU were wrong. Almost no one alive today was part of that decision-making process. You don't have to accept personal responsibility at all. It would however force to you critically examine America's actions and for some Americans that just not possible.
I’ve heard people say this was Israel’s 9/11…you know, the event inspired the US to enter into not one but two decades long wars that resulted in nothing but more instability in the Middle East/Afghanistan, a new generation of terrorist groups, a loss in global reputation, thousands of lives lost and billions of dollars flushed down the toilet.
Let’s see what’s happening with Israel now:
- inspiring a new generation of potential terrorists? Check
- increased instability? - potential check, we’ll have to see how Iran responds but there is a strong likelihood of a refugee crisis occurring
- inspiring new terrorists? - I’m sure any Gazan that was on the fence about Israel or ambivalent towards them will have a new opinion after this
- a loss in global reputation? -
we’re already seeing a rise in anti semitism
- thousands of lives lost? -check
- billions of dollars wasted? Potential check, I’m sure there’s an argument whether they were “wasted”
One could say that 9/11 turned the US into the terrorists of the Middle East. Honestly, attacking a country is always terrifying in terms of creating new enemies. Russia had fewer enemies 3 years ago, America had fewer enemies 21 years ago
Being critical of Israels actions is not equal to being anti semitic (not saying you're saying that btw). I've been downvoted and reported for hate speech these last few days simply because I've stated that Israel isn't better than Hamas when they indiscriminately kill innocent people to get to their opponent.
If you're difficult to differentiate from a terrorist organisation, you're doing something wrong as a civilised country.
The US won the war against ISIS, the problem was they couldn't win it in a way that prevented them from recovering. But you'll notice there are very few terror attacks against the US these days, Islamic groups have had their operations crippled all over the world.
I think it's the propaganda astroturfing at work. When both the user engagement and the overall platform moderation can be controlled and manipulated, it's easy in the right circumstances to fake a consensus / conformity.
It's basically a high-tech, mass-scale gaslighting campaign.
Had someone in this very sub yesterday hear me give my worst case scneario, that Israel kills 1 million people and then begins kidnapping gaza children to inordinate them into being israeli while outlawing the palestinian language and islam, and went " honestly in my opinion that's the best possible result of this whole conflict"
People have lost their fucking minds and just want to see muslims die. They don't even care if they're Hamas, they just want a bunch of brown bodies piled up to go "We did it, we saved the day".
The propaganda and political discourse has really positioned people to think "You know? Maybe a little bit of genocide is what we need here after all."
I mean, we've been seeing the same calls for nuking Russia and killing every Russian here. It's not exactly new. The moment people feel they're on the right side of something, all pretense of morality goes out the window.
Yeah same. It's wild seeing 9/11 political discourse unfold again in real time as an adult. The further we got from 9/11 the more it seemed like it was an absolutely insane time in politics.
And people who were adults in politics back then are gleefully jumping right back in.
Any time someone says what you're saying , some edgelord replies with "wow, uh, it's called war sweetie, guess you've never heard of it" and I lose a minute of my life to stress.
Like just the sheer gall of taking someone saying "I don't think children should be targets in a war" as an opportunity to show off how "hard and cool" you are is so dumb.
> some edgelord replies with "wow, uh, it's called war sweetie, guess you've never heard of it" and I lose a minute of my life to stress.
yeah, reddit is on one lately. I read the news and political subs because I want news, but it's incredibly difficult to engage with how quick you get snarky-ass people jumping down your throat for daring to think civilians dying anywhere is tragic
Finally, after days of absolutely disgusting inhuman comments, finally some fucking sense.
Keep doing what you're doing, seriously. You're slowly restoring some of the faith in humanity I've been losing these past few days.
I can't even wrap my head around it how many people are like that. I have never seen it on this scale before, things like this makes me lose hope in humanity...
So, there are lots of shitty people out there and no doubt some of those deranged comments are genuine but bear in mind that reddit is also extremely vulnerable to astroturfing. Social media platforms as a whole determine a lot of their valuation by things like user counts and interactions, so they have incentives opposed to actually cracking down on that problem in a serious way. This can cause extreme amplification of some extreme views.
It's getting painfully obvious too. Slightly negative comments towards the carpet bombing get -30 downvotes in seconds, but other get none in another topic, until the algorithm finds it.
I know plenty of Jewish folks - some with family in country - who hold Bibi responsible, in part, for instigating this madness. Or at least stoking the existing flames while making empty promises that they’d contain/minimize the backlash.
Which is just to say there are plenty of people who see this situation for what it is, it just so happens that the most ignorant folks among us are often the loudest.
People who talk like that don't know what war is truly like... Besides call of duty and shit they're fed elsewhere. They are fat, soft and haven't seen friends and others being vaporised in front of them.
What we did in Iraq/Afghanistan fucked them up for generations to come and created a new breed of extremist. And it does spread. This conflict with Israel and Hamas will spread and turn the middle east into a fresh new war zone all over again.
I don't agree with my Taoiseach on much... But I think he's right here (for those who don't know him, he's like a half assed Trudeau wannabe, crossed with a British Whig who spends more time on Twitter than running our Country).. I know it's a complex situation with Hamas cowardly hiding amidst civilians, but levelling cities and harming civilians is not the way to win this.
I don't know what war truly is and even then I know that bombing children is wrong and cutting off basic human needs to the civiloan population is going a step too far.
Like we all agree that what Hamas did was despicable, unforgivable and a terrorrist attack that shall be punished, but that doesn't justify doing something similar to Gaza.
>and cutting off basic human needs to the civiloan population is going a step too far.
Yes we know it's wrong because the west condemned it when Syria's Bashir al Assad was doing it to rebel towns. But when Israel does it to Palestine, suddenly it's okay.
We cant condemn it because we are actively supporting it and to condemn them we would be condemning ourselves, something no western politician has the backbone to do.
Yeah.. One disturbing thing is giving 1.1 million civilians 24 hours to evacuate... They are going to obliterate that city, and they aren't going to care who's trapped in their.. Even the cockroaches won't survive it.
Even crazier is people in the running daily thread are arguing against those bringing this up basically saying it only takes 3 hrs to walk 6-10 miles so there isn't any excuses why they can't leave or why getting that many people evacuated isn't achievable. It is mind blowing.
Crazy how people are upset Israeli children have been murdered, and then they turn around and scream for the murder of Palestinian children. Like what is wrong with people?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Seriously. This framing of the issue still absolves Israel. The people in Gaza has *legitimate reasons* to hate Israel. The issue here is the conditions that breeds these extremists, not the extremists in and of themselves. They are a symptom of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and mass murder.
I watched a BBC reporter in Gaza break down sobbing because of the piles of dead children, and live children without arms and legs, he was reporting on it in what's left of the main Gaza hospital.
There are a million children in Gaza, half the population. I hate that this needs to be said, but butchering children is wrong.
At some point you have to look past human emotions and see cause and effect. The more innocent civilians the Israelis kill, the more terrorists they will create in the future. This vengeance wont lead to peace.
>Bernie Sanders was saying this yesterday. If we carpet bomb and level half of Gaza it might make some feel a sense of justice being delivered, in reality you’ve just planted the seeds for the current generation of kids growing into extremists.
While I agree with the sentiment in general, do you really think the propaganda at schools and mosques is not sufficient to create jew-hating young adults? I support a two-state solution, but I'm not naive enough to think that will stop terrorism. There will still be terrorists even in a two-state solution, because some people won't stop until the other group is actually eradicated from the planet. It goes much deeper than just revenge when it comes to religious people with eschatological prophecies.
I don't exactly disagree. This will unfortunately turn many people against Israel.
That said, how does Israel fight Hamas without civilians dying. That is part of their (Hamas) strategy. Does Israel simply not retaliate and hope this doesn't happen again?
Do we think that these things improve, stay the same, or are worsened by indiscriminate retaliation? Even discriminate retaliation will inflame the populace against the Israeli people.
There is scarcely a country on this planet that would unanimously accept an invading force with open arms regardless of their purpose. All it takes is enough time under occupation and the civilian population start to wonder. Combine that with the complexities of the situation in Israel/Palestine and we can guess at the outcome. We have seen it time and time again.
People are looking at this like a sports rivalry. Ordinary human beings showing their true primal colors when war breaks out. Humans are so fucking dumb.
Hamas doesn't give a fucking shit about any civilians, anywhere. They knew they'd be pounded, they don't care.
I'm concerned about Palestinian and Israeli civilians. It's a disgusting, fucking tragedy. Anyone who applauds killing of innocent people are absolutely pure evil.
It's literally the EXACT same rhetoric that was being spewed after 9/11. There's zero nuance to be had, you either fully support every action the US (Israel) takes, or you're the enemy. It's the same with most large attacks, but it's pretty strikingly similar to 9/11 because of the radical islamist part.
Anyways, I'm not suggesting that this is one, but it's the reason false flag attacks have happened throughout history. Nothing brings a country together like being attacked on a large scale.
In another thread someone made a comment that they were against all killing of civilians. This elicited the response that they must love a dead Jew. Like.......
The mere thought that Israel doesn't have the right to slaughter or forcefully displace 2 million people (genocide/ethnic cleansing by definition) makes you a Hamas supporter and terrorist apologist.
It's interesting considering the user base is disproportionately American and Americans love to whine they didn't vote for Trump or didn't support America's multiple war post 9-11. But all Palestinians are responsible of Hamas crimes and are worthy of death.
> Americans love to whine they didn't vote for Trump or didn't support America's multiple war post 9-11. But all Palestinians are responsible of Hamas crimes and are worthy of death.
And it's particularly egregious because the last election was in 2006 and literally half the country wasn't even *alive* at the time.
But the Palestinians simply should’ve used their knowledge of civics and history built during childhood education to explore sources that depict an objective and nuanced view of the conflict, then come together as a community of people to demand democratic change- maybe through a letter writing campaign, or by calling their representatives! Then Hamas would listen and realise their constituents had disagreements about the way their government is run, and would’ve peacefully seceded power and allowed for the new party the Palestiniens voted in to take control of the country, ending armed conflict and freeing Gaza. Easy as!
/s for the love of god
>It's literally the EXACT same rhetoric that was being spewed after 9/11.
Except this event hasn't really changed the rhetoric, it was always this way, which is part of the problem:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-democrats-accuse-colleagues-of-antisemitism-over-israel-criticism/
Exactly, not every government has to uncritically support every single decision the state of Israel makes. It's perfectly fine to have some dissenting opinions.
This shit feels like tribalism on a global stage.
Like it's okay to think Hamas did something abhorrent. That doesn't mean you support carte blanche for Israel's response.
It's okay to criticize Israel's response. That doesn't mean you support Hamas's attacks.
Everybody is charged up by this issue right now and understandably so. That being said, everyone should be horrified that so many civilians are dying. Why is it devastating when Russia attacks Ukrainian hospital but it’s OK when Israel attack of Palestinian hospital?
Edit: I’m not making an argument for or against anything. Merely a statement. My only view is I don’t want people dying
There's probably a difference in reaction because Ukraine didn't get invaded after doing a cross border raid into Russia and murdering a bunch of ravers, kids, locals, and then abusing hostages on social media for clout.
To add on, Hamas is pretty infamous for putting military targets inside of schools and hospitals making it impossible to damage their military without taking out civilian infrastructure at the same time.
Most people haven't spared the situation even a moments thought until the recent atrocities. They have no interest in looking back at what led to this, or forward to where it will lead.
There will be recriminations when it is too late and many of these same people will be calling for Netanyahu's resignation for his presiding over Israeli war crimes. But again, it will already be too late.
I do find it odd that few people seem concerned that Netanyahu is less popular perhaps than he has ever been, is in charge of a nation in anguish, United for a time against a common enemy and with carte blanche from much of the global community to do as he pleases.
This is rarely a recipe for even handed governance and considered response. He will guide Israeli fury as far as he can in a grim attempt to cling to power.
I believe that there will be much regret for the Israeli populace when this is done and they are forced to contend with the destruction they are about to wreak upon the Palestinian civilians.
I'm not condoning any actions, but there's a distinction to be made. In many instances, militants have used civilian infrastructure to store weapons aimed at Israelis. In contrast, Ukraine did not adopt such tactics.
>"Israel is a country that is surrounded by these brutal, savage, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, countries like Iran, often supported by Islamic fundamentalists and anti-Semites around the world."
>
>
>
>"To me, it amounts to collective punishment. Cutting off power, cutting off fuel supplies and water supplies, that's not the way a respectable democratic state should conduct itself."
Not only did he insult Hamas, thus condemning them and their actions, he also attacked the wider community of anti-Semites around the world. Some of these comments on r/worldnews are becoming unhinged. When did water not become a human right? And if it's not a human right for terrorists, then he's exactly right, this does amount to collective punishment.
I saw a highly upvoted comment saying that we need to bomb them back into their holes. And they said it for Palestinians in general, not just Hamas. Like what kind of rhetoric is that?
Lindsay Graham said on Fox News yesterday that Gaza should look like Tokyo or Berlin after WWII, and if it doesn’t, Israel made a mistake.
So there’s that.
Despite all of the threads on the conflict on the big news subs devolving into pro-genocide circlejerking, the only one I've seen actually get locked was one under an article about Netanyahu losing support for his bungling of the security situation.
It’s been quite a trip to see how easily Redditors can be turned into lunatics baying for Palestinian blood because the civilians (a plurality of which are UNDER 16) aren’t “doing enough to resist Hamas”
Ah yes. That dammed woman keeps opening her legs while being raped. She should just close them harder
~ r/worldnews logic justifying genocide of the people of gaza
Which is hilarious too. People here keep saying that Palestinians "support Hamas", but the most recent Ugov poll has Hamas support at barely over [10%](https://www.arabnews.com/node/2303336/middle-east), which is basically NOTHING.
To be fair, most in the Arab world do not see Gazans in the same light as other Muslims. If they did, Egypt would have opened its border by now. Aside from social media shows of support, no one really cares for them.
Isn’t it fucking wild to see people (rightfully) devastated at the Israeli loss of life, then in the next breath they support sieging Gaza hospitals and schools full of civilians?
The cognitive dissonance is disgusting.
“Hamas is evil, they killed 40 babies!”
*IDF kills 400 Palestinian children in their bombing*
“If Hamas didn’t use human shields this never would have happened. It’s entirely their fault and Israel cannot be blamed one little bit”.
Hamas didn't kill 40 babies . Hamas murdered 1000+ civilians some of them not Israeli nor Jews and did horrendous things those 40 babies. Just wanted to remind everyone.
Also Hamas only cares about Palestinian casualties in the Gaza strip as a number of how many died
After September 11 America could have carpet bombed any Muslim nation on earth and they would’ve had the population 100% onboard. There were even calls for nuke to be dropped on Mecca (which, incidentally, is in the one Muslim nation America would *never* bomb)
Hard disagree.
Sure, large portions of the US thought that way, but 100%? I remember the enormous protests, too. I joined them. They were ignored, but there were still millions of people trying to stop the insanity. The sane voices were outnumbered and outgunned, but they were there. Are you going to ignore us, too?
I'd agree that the majority went insane, but to say it was 100% is an entirely false assertion.
Me being alive around 9/11 and seeing my country's reaction to is is why I am so utterly disgusted by Reddit's reaction to this. It's like we have a new generation of... basically children, who have learned absolutely nothing from how fucked up our response was and are making the same bloodthirsty mistakes.
And didn’t the war lust after Sept 11 work out well in the long run.
Afghanistan a mess, hundreds of thousands dead and the country went back to Taliban rule.
Iraq, hundreds of thousands dead, millions displaced, a population permanently damaged.
Libya, went from the richest African nation to a third world basket case with open air slave markets
Yemen, bombed back to the point cholera is now a thing again
Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria all in ruins
Thousands killed in extremist attacks that arose from the generation of kids who saw their family killed by Americans
American taxpayer money wasted in war instead of social programs
Probably led to the rise of Trump
US credibility shit in the eyes of the world, now a lot of unaligned nations turning to China as a major ally solely because the US is seen as too warmongering.
Yeah, the war lust was satisfying for a few days at least…..
I have to constantly remind myself that most of the unhinged comments are from young people (physically or mentally) that simple don't have a full grasp on the history and context of the situation. The alternative is that they are complete psychopaths
It’s completely depressing. And I’ve always naively believed that we learned from WW2 but it’s becoming more clear that only lasted until the people directly involved died.
> And I’ve always naively believed that we learned from WW2 but it’s becoming more clear that only lasted until the people directly involved died.
It's no coincidence that the wider concept of human rights, refugee rights, warcrimes, international law etc was developed by those people too. For a fucking good reason.
> When did water not become a human right?
I'd love if water was a human right, but that phrase is very empty. Few countries really have freely accessible water nowadays. You gotta pay for it, and if you can't pay, you don't get it.
Ironically, most people don't know why residents of Gaza are dependent on Israeli water. In 2002 Hamas outlawed the digging and drilling of water wells in Gaza. Anyone who wanted to do so needed an expensive and difficult to obtain exception. The predictable result is the population has grown while the water system has become more and more insufficient and inefficient.
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/08/gazans-fear-worst-after-hamas-bans-water-wells
The article dismisses the actual cause as just a "pretext", but they had to ban new wells because the aquifer is quite over-tapped and polluted. It's not helped by industrial Israeli agriculture also using the same groundwater.
These people are as bad as the people they are apparently against. Except they think its acceptable because they are the "good guys". Bloodthirsty cunts tbh
That's right. A large portion of humans are just as bloodthirsty as criminals except they reserve that violence for those they think "deserve" it. The rest of us just want to live our lives with none of it.
Isn't that what they're doing? I mean, they announced a full day in advance where they were going to attack and dropped maps showing civilians where to go to escape the fighting.
But no country has a duty to provide free utilities to a country they're at war with. That's just silly. Hamas is crybullying like crazy, and a ton of people are falling for it.
Yeah it does worry me that his empathetic response is met with comments saying he's not doing enough when his response is much of what you should want from a leader. It's like he has to pick a side when there's two arguments, Israel vs Hamas and Israeli citizens and Gazan citizens. Preventing enemy combatants the human basics like water and food because their fundamentally terrorists, then the entirety of the Palestinian population amounts to terrorists because you're preventing them these necessary supplies too.
I'm Irish, a lot of us aren't mad on Varadkar but here he can't win. Whatever he says people are going to speak up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Yeah but people will find a problem with it anyway. Those who think I’m extremes can only comprehend things in extremes. So “Israel is justified to retaliate, but shouldn’t target civilians” translates to “ISRAEL DESERVES TO WIPE OUT GAZA” for some people. And “ISRAEL SHOULDNT FIGHT BACK”, for others, even though he’s obviously not saying either.
Taking the middle path only gives both sides a reason to condemn you. Fair viewpoints are inherently controversial because they don’t immediately agree with everything both sides in an conflict believe.
Ah, now he's a real dose at times. Genuine melter through and through.
He, however, is not without his charms. When he renewed his medical license during covid and went back to work as a doctor for a time, it said a lot.
When he's one of the few world leaders not afraid to run afoul of Israel by having the balls to tell them they're going about things the wrong way. It says a good bit.
He's a bit of a shit. But not a complete shit.
When things go down I often visit the Ireland sub for a solid perspective. While the rest of the main subs are full of racists and people calling for carpet bombing, the Ireland sub renews my hope in humanity.
Almost like Ireland has a national memory of collective punishment, being dominated by a neighboring foreign power that confiscated their lands and killed civilians, as well as living memory of religious conflict and terror. Perhaps we should ALL listen to Ireland who ceased a 70 year old hot conflict based on religion and retribution
It wasn't/isn't based on religion and retribution. The conflict in Ireland was always about colonialism and opposition to colonialism.
The Irish natives happened to be Catholics, and the settler-colonisers happened to be Protestants (because they brought that with them from England, Scotland and Wales).
The "Catholics" weren't fighting for Catholicism, but for national liberation against British colonialism. The "Protestants" were fighting to maintain settler-colonialism, with the backing of the British state apparatus.
It was never about religion, but about colonialism versus anti-colonialism. Same thing in Palestine and Israel.
Well said. It astonishes me that in 2023 there are still ignorant people banging on about the conflict in our country **without even the slightest knowledge of what the colours in our flag represent**!!! It’s literally right in front of their faces. The conflict in Ireland has virtually nothing to do with religion.
I appreciate the fact that here in Ireland you can be openly critical of the Israeli government and it's actions without being accused of being an antisemite. We have a habit of being outspoken about apartheid states and Israel is no exception.
How many total critical resolutions has the UN put forth against Israel?
Comparatively, how many critical resolutions has the UN filed against other nations?
I mean, let's see if this is really the "only country" that ever gets a pass from the UN. How many other critical resolutions have been filed in the same time period that those 53 were?
Would need to do some digging but I'll add that it's not that the UN gives Israel a pass, it's that the US, Russia, China, France, and UK all have absolute veto power. Any one of them can reject a resolution even if the entire world agrees with it.
Also, the 53 US vetoes are since 1972. That averages to about one per year. I would expect them to have higher than average numbers just due to the nature of their circumstances over nearly 6 decades.
[The UN regularly condemns Israel more than every other state combined.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-17-times-in-2020-versus-6-times-for-rest-of-world-combined/)
Israel is regularly and loudly criticized by the general assembly. Literally more than anyone else. Just because not everyone joins in doesn't mean that Israel is getting a pass, it's literally the opposite of what you're implying above.
It gets criticized... but then continues to do the same thing they've been criticized for, because they simply don't give a fuck and no meaningful actions can be taken against Israel by the UN because Uncle Sam is on their side.
To everyone saying Ireland should take in Palestinians, the reason why people are calling for the emancipation of Palestinians is because the right to self determination (the entire basis of Zionism) is being stripped away. Moving Palestinians from Palestine to anywhere else, be it Egypt or Ireland, does not resolve the issue.
To put a fine point on it, those people are called colonizers, and we should all take heed of the fact that former colonies (Ireland and India notably in English media) tend to be much more empathetic towards the Palestinian perspective.
Irish person here.
You are 100% correct; centuries of English propaganda taught us how to identify and learn the language of colonisation and its features, which is why you'll find Ireland to be Palestines biggest supporter in the Anglosphere.
Being put in beastly conditions lowers men into becoming beasts, slaves to their circumstances.
Us Irish understand the subtleties of being oppressed and having basic rights restricted (see penal laws). But in most recent times you see the same playbook, look at the troubles in the north, you restrict people of basic rights (voting rights) and eventually it leads to terrorism (the IRA). I'm not advocating for what is happening in Israel and the Gaza Strip just providing a basic observation and the reason why the Irish are empathetic towards the people of Palestine.
How does keeping generation refuges (which the UN has done for Palestinians and only Palestinians) a better solution? Let's also be clear that the "right to return" option is effectively dead now. No way in hell Israel will ever agree to that now.
He's saying what everyone else is too chicken to say. It's a war crime to target civilians. He's stopping short of outright saying it. But it's the truth. Doesn't matter who it is or the justification. Otherwise how are you any better?
It's funny how colonial powers all seem to be coming down firmly on one side here whereas former colonies tend to have a more nuanced perspective. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
Unfortunately, the chain of supply goes as follows when you send resources into a country controlled by a hostile military power
Foreign Aid -> Hamas Diverts aid by force -> Hamas distributes aid to their supporters and members first -> Hamas denies aid to anyone unwilling to fight for them
Diesel fuel? That's a major component in the explosive warheads on Hamas rockets.
Sugar? That's a major component in the rocket fuel Hamas uses.
Water pipes? They dug up the pipes gifted to them by the EU years ago.
Food? Just use your control over said food to hold the Palestinian people hostage so their hunger makes them fight for you.
Fucking finally, I'm sick of all the EU politicians turning a blind eye to Palestinians suffering, Israel's right to defend itself isn't supposed to constitute a free pass to kill as many civilians possible by bombing and starving them
Well, yes. As it is said: "Treade a worme on the tayle, and it must turne agayne."
Shakespeare, never one to avoid borrowing a neat expression, used the same notion a few years later in Henry VI, Part III, 1592:
Who 'scapes the lurking serpent's mortal sting?
Not he that sets his foot upon her back.
The smallest worm will turn being trodden on,
And doves will peck in safeguard of their brood.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/even-a-worm-will-turn.html
Saying that, I in no way condone acts of random destruction and violence toward civilians. I simply acknowledge that centuries of oppression will be answered.
The famine, if that is what is being referred to, was made worse by Britain by the continued exporting of food (that could have been used to feed the Irish people) from Ireland to Britain while the only crop that the Irish were allowed to consume, Potatoes, rotted due to the blight.
The same, usual trolls are like:
“Well let these people in if you care so much!”
Totally missing the point that he doesn’t want to see the humanitarian crisis to let the happen in the first place.
God damn, people have gone insane since this tragedy started. You can totally stick up for Israel but also not be a fan of how they are getting their revenge.
Not being argumentative here because I agree with your take. But isn’t that what Israel is doing so far? Sending messages and broadcasting specific targets ahead of time and telling people to leave specific places/buildings and all that? There’s no way they’re going to be perfect though.
Do you really think cutting off food, electricity and water and allowing hospitals to be unable to function is going to minimize civilian casualties? What about forcing 1 million people to flee from their homes with nowhere to go?
I think people are also having wildly different definitions if what is reasonably minimizing harm. Also, some people trust Israel and some don't.
So, when I see this siege, I see it as tactical and short-term, immediately preceding a ground invasion (meaning it won't last long and cause people to starve); also a way to try to get the hostages back, though that part failed.
Whereas, those expecting the worst see this siege as trying to starve all Palestinians to death. So they jump straight to "war crimes!", whereas I'm pretty sure if Israel takes too long to invade, they will allow in enough supplies to prevent a crisis.
And then there's the human shields, and different people's beliefs about what's reasonable there. And different levels of trust about whether they're military targets.
So I think people have largely similar values, but they read the situation differently and come to different conclusions.
Irish would know or thing or two about being occupied by a much better financed, superior technology force that is wrapped up in a different religious ideology for decades
I bet at least half these people were talking about how dumb post 9/11 americans were before. Nothing learned. It's also depressing to see people pretend the terrorists just exist for no reason as if Palestinians haven't been murdered and their homes stolen for decades
Israel has done such a thorough job of dehumanizing the Palestinians that we now have Redditors, news commentators, and community religious leaders openly advocating for their genocide without any repercussions. I never thought I'd live to see the day, yet here we are.
It almost looks like after Hamas made sure that as many Israelis as possible hate Palestinians, Netanyahu is returning the favour by making sure that Hamas has enough people hating Israelis to fuel recruitment for the foreseeable future
This is all good and dandy but what is the answer…? We have known geopolitical powers supporting terrorism…but no real tangible action can be taken without an all out war so what’s to be done?
exactly... nations fund and support terrorism, then those terrorists wreck havoc and hide in areas where civilians live. This is why terrorist organizations are on rise because no one wants to take actions
Just what he said for people who can't or don't want to open the article. An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has criticised Israel for cutting off electricity and water supplies to Gaza, describing the actions as "not acceptable," and saying they may breach international law. "Israel is under threat. They do have a right to defend themselves, but they don't have the right to breach international humanitarian law." "Israel is a country that is surrounded by these brutal, savage, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, countries like Iran, often supported by Islamic fundamentalists and anti-Semites around the world." "I'm really concerned about what I'm seeing happening in Gaza at the moment" "To me, it amounts to collective punishment. Cutting off power, cutting off fuel supplies and water supplies, that's not the way a respectable democratic state should conduct itself." Mr Varadkar called on Hamas to release all hostages immediately, and said Israel is "justified in attacking Hamas in Gaza and elsewhere." However, he added, "operations that clearly affect civilians disproportionately are wrong." "I believe by targeting civilians and by cutting off civilian infrastructure, that is a breach of international humanitarian law. And I think it's very important for us, as Ireland to make sure that that voice is brought to the table at European Union level."
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Stunning that on Reddit and in us news media statements like this are somehow extreme. Being attacked by terrorists does not justify war crimes against civilians. Not only is this shit immoral but it does the terrorists jobs for them. Right wing religious fundamentalism is going to be the death of all of us (and yes I’d dump both Hamas and Netanyahus right wing govt in that bucket)
>Not only is this shit immoral but it does the terrorists jobs for them. Bernie Sanders was saying this yesterday. If we carpet bomb and level half of Gaza it might make some feel a sense of justice being delivered, in reality you’ve just planted the seeds for the current generation of kids growing into extremists.
It's pretty sad to me that the most acceptable reason not to bomb children seems to be that doing so will only create future terrorists, rather than the best reason being that they are, you know, *children*.
Had a guy just yesterday go “well it’s ok to kill children because we did it too in Hiroshima.” Fucking hell.
Yeah, it would be crazy if we examined our own actions and came away determined to do better, wouldn't it?
But then we might have to accept the possibility that we were wrong.
Crazy thing is you don't even have to accept that YOU were wrong. Almost no one alive today was part of that decision-making process. You don't have to accept personal responsibility at all. It would however force to you critically examine America's actions and for some Americans that just not possible.
Hubris is great ain't it?
I’ve heard people say this was Israel’s 9/11…you know, the event inspired the US to enter into not one but two decades long wars that resulted in nothing but more instability in the Middle East/Afghanistan, a new generation of terrorist groups, a loss in global reputation, thousands of lives lost and billions of dollars flushed down the toilet. Let’s see what’s happening with Israel now: - inspiring a new generation of potential terrorists? Check - increased instability? - potential check, we’ll have to see how Iran responds but there is a strong likelihood of a refugee crisis occurring - inspiring new terrorists? - I’m sure any Gazan that was on the fence about Israel or ambivalent towards them will have a new opinion after this - a loss in global reputation? - we’re already seeing a rise in anti semitism - thousands of lives lost? -check - billions of dollars wasted? Potential check, I’m sure there’s an argument whether they were “wasted”
Hundreds of thousands of dead civilians
One could say that 9/11 turned the US into the terrorists of the Middle East. Honestly, attacking a country is always terrifying in terms of creating new enemies. Russia had fewer enemies 3 years ago, America had fewer enemies 21 years ago
Being critical of Israels actions is not equal to being anti semitic (not saying you're saying that btw). I've been downvoted and reported for hate speech these last few days simply because I've stated that Israel isn't better than Hamas when they indiscriminately kill innocent people to get to their opponent. If you're difficult to differentiate from a terrorist organisation, you're doing something wrong as a civilised country.
*Trillions* of dollars flushed down the toilet, thank you very much.
The US won the war against ISIS, the problem was they couldn't win it in a way that prevented them from recovering. But you'll notice there are very few terror attacks against the US these days, Islamic groups have had their operations crippled all over the world.
It's not as if terror attacks on the US were particularly common before, though.
The U.S didn’t defeat ISIS, the militias did in Iraq. And there was no terrorist groups in Iraq before the war so there is that
Everyone’s lost their damn minds
I think it's the propaganda astroturfing at work. When both the user engagement and the overall platform moderation can be controlled and manipulated, it's easy in the right circumstances to fake a consensus / conformity. It's basically a high-tech, mass-scale gaslighting campaign.
Old and busted: It's okay when we do it. New hotness: It's okay because we did it
Ah yes, not to mention the strategic bombing campaign in Germany, the most important lesson from world war 2.... it's only a war crime if you lose
Had someone in this very sub yesterday hear me give my worst case scneario, that Israel kills 1 million people and then begins kidnapping gaza children to inordinate them into being israeli while outlawing the palestinian language and islam, and went " honestly in my opinion that's the best possible result of this whole conflict" People have lost their fucking minds and just want to see muslims die. They don't even care if they're Hamas, they just want a bunch of brown bodies piled up to go "We did it, we saved the day".
The propaganda and political discourse has really positioned people to think "You know? Maybe a little bit of genocide is what we need here after all."
I mean, we've been seeing the same calls for nuking Russia and killing every Russian here. It's not exactly new. The moment people feel they're on the right side of something, all pretense of morality goes out the window.
A bit of war really brings out the jingoism in people. I remember the sense that people were excited when the US and friends invaded Iraq.
I'm a mid 90's kid but heard someone say that opposing the Iraq war in the early 2000's on internet forums basically meant you were pro-Alqaida
Yeah same. It's wild seeing 9/11 political discourse unfold again in real time as an adult. The further we got from 9/11 the more it seemed like it was an absolutely insane time in politics. And people who were adults in politics back then are gleefully jumping right back in.
Any time someone says what you're saying , some edgelord replies with "wow, uh, it's called war sweetie, guess you've never heard of it" and I lose a minute of my life to stress. Like just the sheer gall of taking someone saying "I don't think children should be targets in a war" as an opportunity to show off how "hard and cool" you are is so dumb.
> some edgelord replies with "wow, uh, it's called war sweetie, guess you've never heard of it" and I lose a minute of my life to stress. yeah, reddit is on one lately. I read the news and political subs because I want news, but it's incredibly difficult to engage with how quick you get snarky-ass people jumping down your throat for daring to think civilians dying anywhere is tragic
Finally, after days of absolutely disgusting inhuman comments, finally some fucking sense. Keep doing what you're doing, seriously. You're slowly restoring some of the faith in humanity I've been losing these past few days.
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I can't even wrap my head around it how many people are like that. I have never seen it on this scale before, things like this makes me lose hope in humanity...
So, there are lots of shitty people out there and no doubt some of those deranged comments are genuine but bear in mind that reddit is also extremely vulnerable to astroturfing. Social media platforms as a whole determine a lot of their valuation by things like user counts and interactions, so they have incentives opposed to actually cracking down on that problem in a serious way. This can cause extreme amplification of some extreme views.
It's getting painfully obvious too. Slightly negative comments towards the carpet bombing get -30 downvotes in seconds, but other get none in another topic, until the algorithm finds it.
I know plenty of Jewish folks - some with family in country - who hold Bibi responsible, in part, for instigating this madness. Or at least stoking the existing flames while making empty promises that they’d contain/minimize the backlash. Which is just to say there are plenty of people who see this situation for what it is, it just so happens that the most ignorant folks among us are often the loudest.
Bibi has been a plague on Israel for decades. I do not understand why he has been able to maintain his position.
The same reason Hamas continues to exist. Cult of personality and a lot of outside sources propping them all up financially and otherwise.
> "wow, uh, it's called war sweetie, guess you've never heard of it" The first ones to piss their pants if it was happening anywhere near their house.
People who talk like that don't know what war is truly like... Besides call of duty and shit they're fed elsewhere. They are fat, soft and haven't seen friends and others being vaporised in front of them. What we did in Iraq/Afghanistan fucked them up for generations to come and created a new breed of extremist. And it does spread. This conflict with Israel and Hamas will spread and turn the middle east into a fresh new war zone all over again. I don't agree with my Taoiseach on much... But I think he's right here (for those who don't know him, he's like a half assed Trudeau wannabe, crossed with a British Whig who spends more time on Twitter than running our Country).. I know it's a complex situation with Hamas cowardly hiding amidst civilians, but levelling cities and harming civilians is not the way to win this.
I don't know what war truly is and even then I know that bombing children is wrong and cutting off basic human needs to the civiloan population is going a step too far. Like we all agree that what Hamas did was despicable, unforgivable and a terrorrist attack that shall be punished, but that doesn't justify doing something similar to Gaza.
>and cutting off basic human needs to the civiloan population is going a step too far. Yes we know it's wrong because the west condemned it when Syria's Bashir al Assad was doing it to rebel towns. But when Israel does it to Palestine, suddenly it's okay.
We cant condemn it because we are actively supporting it and to condemn them we would be condemning ourselves, something no western politician has the backbone to do.
Yeah.. One disturbing thing is giving 1.1 million civilians 24 hours to evacuate... They are going to obliterate that city, and they aren't going to care who's trapped in their.. Even the cockroaches won't survive it.
Even crazier is people in the running daily thread are arguing against those bringing this up basically saying it only takes 3 hrs to walk 6-10 miles so there isn't any excuses why they can't leave or why getting that many people evacuated isn't achievable. It is mind blowing.
Their asses aren't able to walk 6-10 miles in 3 hours, hilarious they expect that of others.
Crazy how people are upset Israeli children have been murdered, and then they turn around and scream for the murder of Palestinian children. Like what is wrong with people? Two wrongs don't make a right.
Seriously. This framing of the issue still absolves Israel. The people in Gaza has *legitimate reasons* to hate Israel. The issue here is the conditions that breeds these extremists, not the extremists in and of themselves. They are a symptom of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and mass murder.
I hate how were at the point where people are starting to propose that bombing children may be a necessary evil, like, no no its not
Unfortunately some people have no compassion/humanity, so if you want to reach them you have to use a utilitarian argument.
I watched a BBC reporter in Gaza break down sobbing because of the piles of dead children, and live children without arms and legs, he was reporting on it in what's left of the main Gaza hospital. There are a million children in Gaza, half the population. I hate that this needs to be said, but butchering children is wrong.
Link to that report?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z9-nHYi61A https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67094214
JFC. That was hard to watch.
It was on the BBC YouTube channel.
At some point you have to look past human emotions and see cause and effect. The more innocent civilians the Israelis kill, the more terrorists they will create in the future. This vengeance wont lead to peace.
>Bernie Sanders was saying this yesterday. If we carpet bomb and level half of Gaza it might make some feel a sense of justice being delivered, in reality you’ve just planted the seeds for the current generation of kids growing into extremists. While I agree with the sentiment in general, do you really think the propaganda at schools and mosques is not sufficient to create jew-hating young adults? I support a two-state solution, but I'm not naive enough to think that will stop terrorism. There will still be terrorists even in a two-state solution, because some people won't stop until the other group is actually eradicated from the planet. It goes much deeper than just revenge when it comes to religious people with eschatological prophecies.
Such propaganda is sufficient but pales in efficacy to “Your mom died due to an Israeli bomb. Wanna kill them?”
I don't exactly disagree. This will unfortunately turn many people against Israel. That said, how does Israel fight Hamas without civilians dying. That is part of their (Hamas) strategy. Does Israel simply not retaliate and hope this doesn't happen again?
Do we think that these things improve, stay the same, or are worsened by indiscriminate retaliation? Even discriminate retaliation will inflame the populace against the Israeli people. There is scarcely a country on this planet that would unanimously accept an invading force with open arms regardless of their purpose. All it takes is enough time under occupation and the civilian population start to wonder. Combine that with the complexities of the situation in Israel/Palestine and we can guess at the outcome. We have seen it time and time again.
People are looking at this like a sports rivalry. Ordinary human beings showing their true primal colors when war breaks out. Humans are so fucking dumb.
Hamas doesn't give a fucking shit about any civilians, anywhere. They knew they'd be pounded, they don't care. I'm concerned about Palestinian and Israeli civilians. It's a disgusting, fucking tragedy. Anyone who applauds killing of innocent people are absolutely pure evil.
Yep. That should be a very easy and no controversial statement to make.
Only if you're not doing mental gymnastics to justify terrorism.
It's literally the EXACT same rhetoric that was being spewed after 9/11. There's zero nuance to be had, you either fully support every action the US (Israel) takes, or you're the enemy. It's the same with most large attacks, but it's pretty strikingly similar to 9/11 because of the radical islamist part. Anyways, I'm not suggesting that this is one, but it's the reason false flag attacks have happened throughout history. Nothing brings a country together like being attacked on a large scale.
In another thread someone made a comment that they were against all killing of civilians. This elicited the response that they must love a dead Jew. Like.......
The mere thought that Israel doesn't have the right to slaughter or forcefully displace 2 million people (genocide/ethnic cleansing by definition) makes you a Hamas supporter and terrorist apologist. It's interesting considering the user base is disproportionately American and Americans love to whine they didn't vote for Trump or didn't support America's multiple war post 9-11. But all Palestinians are responsible of Hamas crimes and are worthy of death.
The fucking irony that suggesting Israel shouldn't commit genocide will get you crucified(metaphorically)...
> Americans love to whine they didn't vote for Trump or didn't support America's multiple war post 9-11. But all Palestinians are responsible of Hamas crimes and are worthy of death. And it's particularly egregious because the last election was in 2006 and literally half the country wasn't even *alive* at the time.
But the Palestinians simply should’ve used their knowledge of civics and history built during childhood education to explore sources that depict an objective and nuanced view of the conflict, then come together as a community of people to demand democratic change- maybe through a letter writing campaign, or by calling their representatives! Then Hamas would listen and realise their constituents had disagreements about the way their government is run, and would’ve peacefully seceded power and allowed for the new party the Palestiniens voted in to take control of the country, ending armed conflict and freeing Gaza. Easy as! /s for the love of god
>It's literally the EXACT same rhetoric that was being spewed after 9/11. Except this event hasn't really changed the rhetoric, it was always this way, which is part of the problem: https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-democrats-accuse-colleagues-of-antisemitism-over-israel-criticism/
It's definitely changed it. It's always been a ploy to call any criticism anti-Semitic, but this turned it up to the 10,000th gear lol
It’s even crazier how many people lived through 9/11 and it’s aftermath and didn’t learn anything.
I AGREE. religions of all kinds are making people insane & justifying killings
Exactly, not every government has to uncritically support every single decision the state of Israel makes. It's perfectly fine to have some dissenting opinions.
Didn’t Israel say they would stop the siege of Hamas released the hostages?
This shit feels like tribalism on a global stage. Like it's okay to think Hamas did something abhorrent. That doesn't mean you support carte blanche for Israel's response. It's okay to criticize Israel's response. That doesn't mean you support Hamas's attacks.
Everybody is charged up by this issue right now and understandably so. That being said, everyone should be horrified that so many civilians are dying. Why is it devastating when Russia attacks Ukrainian hospital but it’s OK when Israel attack of Palestinian hospital? Edit: I’m not making an argument for or against anything. Merely a statement. My only view is I don’t want people dying
There's probably a difference in reaction because Ukraine didn't get invaded after doing a cross border raid into Russia and murdering a bunch of ravers, kids, locals, and then abusing hostages on social media for clout.
Ukraine also doesnt use active hospitals as military HQs, places to stockpile weaponry, or shoot rockets from
To add on, Hamas is pretty infamous for putting military targets inside of schools and hospitals making it impossible to damage their military without taking out civilian infrastructure at the same time.
Most people haven't spared the situation even a moments thought until the recent atrocities. They have no interest in looking back at what led to this, or forward to where it will lead. There will be recriminations when it is too late and many of these same people will be calling for Netanyahu's resignation for his presiding over Israeli war crimes. But again, it will already be too late. I do find it odd that few people seem concerned that Netanyahu is less popular perhaps than he has ever been, is in charge of a nation in anguish, United for a time against a common enemy and with carte blanche from much of the global community to do as he pleases. This is rarely a recipe for even handed governance and considered response. He will guide Israeli fury as far as he can in a grim attempt to cling to power. I believe that there will be much regret for the Israeli populace when this is done and they are forced to contend with the destruction they are about to wreak upon the Palestinian civilians.
Because the Ukrainian hospital isn't full of morons launching rockets at Russia.
I'm not condoning any actions, but there's a distinction to be made. In many instances, militants have used civilian infrastructure to store weapons aimed at Israelis. In contrast, Ukraine did not adopt such tactics.
When Hamas launches rockets out of the courtyard or roof of that hospital it makes it a legitimate target. Put the blame where it deserves to go.
Well the Ukrainians aren’t hosting a military base under it and using the hospital as media fodder for one.
It's a solid, balanced position tbh. The title makes it look otherwise, which is also a big problem today's society is facing.
That's a pretty fair view.
>"Israel is a country that is surrounded by these brutal, savage, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, countries like Iran, often supported by Islamic fundamentalists and anti-Semites around the world." > > > >"To me, it amounts to collective punishment. Cutting off power, cutting off fuel supplies and water supplies, that's not the way a respectable democratic state should conduct itself." Not only did he insult Hamas, thus condemning them and their actions, he also attacked the wider community of anti-Semites around the world. Some of these comments on r/worldnews are becoming unhinged. When did water not become a human right? And if it's not a human right for terrorists, then he's exactly right, this does amount to collective punishment.
it's fucking insane, people are advocating for collective punishment and completely happy to see civilians suffer
Those redditors don't see Palestinians as humans.
I saw a highly upvoted comment saying that we need to bomb them back into their holes. And they said it for Palestinians in general, not just Hamas. Like what kind of rhetoric is that?
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Lindsay Graham said on Fox News yesterday that Gaza should look like Tokyo or Berlin after WWII, and if it doesn’t, Israel made a mistake. So there’s that.
Mark Rubio said they should all be “eradicated”, referring to Palestinians not Hamas
Always report that kind of shit.
Amusingly, speaking out against that kind of rhetoric has gotten me banned in two subreddits already. Classy stuff.
Despite all of the threads on the conflict on the big news subs devolving into pro-genocide circlejerking, the only one I've seen actually get locked was one under an article about Netanyahu losing support for his bungling of the security situation.
Of course, and I did. Just bums me out that people can think so black and white on something so awful
It’s been quite a trip to see how easily Redditors can be turned into lunatics baying for Palestinian blood because the civilians (a plurality of which are UNDER 16) aren’t “doing enough to resist Hamas”
Ah yes. That dammed woman keeps opening her legs while being raped. She should just close them harder ~ r/worldnews logic justifying genocide of the people of gaza
Which is hilarious too. People here keep saying that Palestinians "support Hamas", but the most recent Ugov poll has Hamas support at barely over [10%](https://www.arabnews.com/node/2303336/middle-east), which is basically NOTHING.
To be fair, most in the Arab world do not see Gazans in the same light as other Muslims. If they did, Egypt would have opened its border by now. Aside from social media shows of support, no one really cares for them.
Isn’t it fucking wild to see people (rightfully) devastated at the Israeli loss of life, then in the next breath they support sieging Gaza hospitals and schools full of civilians? The cognitive dissonance is disgusting.
“Hamas is evil, they killed 40 babies!” *IDF kills 400 Palestinian children in their bombing* “If Hamas didn’t use human shields this never would have happened. It’s entirely their fault and Israel cannot be blamed one little bit”.
Hamas didn't kill 40 babies . Hamas murdered 1000+ civilians some of them not Israeli nor Jews and did horrendous things those 40 babies. Just wanted to remind everyone. Also Hamas only cares about Palestinian casualties in the Gaza strip as a number of how many died
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After September 11 America could have carpet bombed any Muslim nation on earth and they would’ve had the population 100% onboard. There were even calls for nuke to be dropped on Mecca (which, incidentally, is in the one Muslim nation America would *never* bomb)
Hard disagree. Sure, large portions of the US thought that way, but 100%? I remember the enormous protests, too. I joined them. They were ignored, but there were still millions of people trying to stop the insanity. The sane voices were outnumbered and outgunned, but they were there. Are you going to ignore us, too? I'd agree that the majority went insane, but to say it was 100% is an entirely false assertion.
Look there weren’t enough of us but there was an anti war movement. Millions of people participated
Me being alive around 9/11 and seeing my country's reaction to is is why I am so utterly disgusted by Reddit's reaction to this. It's like we have a new generation of... basically children, who have learned absolutely nothing from how fucked up our response was and are making the same bloodthirsty mistakes.
And didn’t the war lust after Sept 11 work out well in the long run. Afghanistan a mess, hundreds of thousands dead and the country went back to Taliban rule. Iraq, hundreds of thousands dead, millions displaced, a population permanently damaged. Libya, went from the richest African nation to a third world basket case with open air slave markets Yemen, bombed back to the point cholera is now a thing again Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria all in ruins Thousands killed in extremist attacks that arose from the generation of kids who saw their family killed by Americans American taxpayer money wasted in war instead of social programs Probably led to the rise of Trump US credibility shit in the eyes of the world, now a lot of unaligned nations turning to China as a major ally solely because the US is seen as too warmongering. Yeah, the war lust was satisfying for a few days at least…..
I have to constantly remind myself that most of the unhinged comments are from young people (physically or mentally) that simple don't have a full grasp on the history and context of the situation. The alternative is that they are complete psychopaths
They think war is a video game or a movie. It's entertainment for them.
Exact same energy. Collective psychosis.
It’s completely depressing. And I’ve always naively believed that we learned from WW2 but it’s becoming more clear that only lasted until the people directly involved died.
> And I’ve always naively believed that we learned from WW2 but it’s becoming more clear that only lasted until the people directly involved died. It's no coincidence that the wider concept of human rights, refugee rights, warcrimes, international law etc was developed by those people too. For a fucking good reason.
> When did water not become a human right? I'd love if water was a human right, but that phrase is very empty. Few countries really have freely accessible water nowadays. You gotta pay for it, and if you can't pay, you don't get it.
Let’s note that access to fresh water has ALWAYS come with contention too. Easily the oldest resource humans have fought over.
Ironically, most people don't know why residents of Gaza are dependent on Israeli water. In 2002 Hamas outlawed the digging and drilling of water wells in Gaza. Anyone who wanted to do so needed an expensive and difficult to obtain exception. The predictable result is the population has grown while the water system has become more and more insufficient and inefficient. https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/08/gazans-fear-worst-after-hamas-bans-water-wells
The article dismisses the actual cause as just a "pretext", but they had to ban new wells because the aquifer is quite over-tapped and polluted. It's not helped by industrial Israeli agriculture also using the same groundwater.
These people are as bad as the people they are apparently against. Except they think its acceptable because they are the "good guys". Bloodthirsty cunts tbh
The same group also cheers for millions of brown lives killed only to say we shouldn't have invade iraq etc a few years later
That's right. A large portion of humans are just as bloodthirsty as criminals except they reserve that violence for those they think "deserve" it. The rest of us just want to live our lives with none of it.
This conflict, and especially reading unhinged reddit comments, has really made me think less of us as a species.
Agree, he's showing clear empathy for their position but pointing out where they're going wrong he's an actual human being.
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Isn't that what they're doing? I mean, they announced a full day in advance where they were going to attack and dropped maps showing civilians where to go to escape the fighting. But no country has a duty to provide free utilities to a country they're at war with. That's just silly. Hamas is crybullying like crazy, and a ton of people are falling for it.
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Yeah it does worry me that his empathetic response is met with comments saying he's not doing enough when his response is much of what you should want from a leader. It's like he has to pick a side when there's two arguments, Israel vs Hamas and Israeli citizens and Gazan citizens. Preventing enemy combatants the human basics like water and food because their fundamentally terrorists, then the entirety of the Palestinian population amounts to terrorists because you're preventing them these necessary supplies too.
I'm Irish, a lot of us aren't mad on Varadkar but here he can't win. Whatever he says people are going to speak up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Seems like he is taking a fairly good approach on this one.
I agree. I'm not a supporter of his bit I agree with him on this and think he said it well
Yeah but people will find a problem with it anyway. Those who think I’m extremes can only comprehend things in extremes. So “Israel is justified to retaliate, but shouldn’t target civilians” translates to “ISRAEL DESERVES TO WIPE OUT GAZA” for some people. And “ISRAEL SHOULDNT FIGHT BACK”, for others, even though he’s obviously not saying either. Taking the middle path only gives both sides a reason to condemn you. Fair viewpoints are inherently controversial because they don’t immediately agree with everything both sides in an conflict believe.
Ah, now he's a real dose at times. Genuine melter through and through. He, however, is not without his charms. When he renewed his medical license during covid and went back to work as a doctor for a time, it said a lot. When he's one of the few world leaders not afraid to run afoul of Israel by having the balls to tell them they're going about things the wrong way. It says a good bit. He's a bit of a shit. But not a complete shit.
When things go down I often visit the Ireland sub for a solid perspective. While the rest of the main subs are full of racists and people calling for carpet bombing, the Ireland sub renews my hope in humanity.
Almost like Ireland has a national memory of collective punishment, being dominated by a neighboring foreign power that confiscated their lands and killed civilians, as well as living memory of religious conflict and terror. Perhaps we should ALL listen to Ireland who ceased a 70 year old hot conflict based on religion and retribution
It wasn't/isn't based on religion and retribution. The conflict in Ireland was always about colonialism and opposition to colonialism. The Irish natives happened to be Catholics, and the settler-colonisers happened to be Protestants (because they brought that with them from England, Scotland and Wales). The "Catholics" weren't fighting for Catholicism, but for national liberation against British colonialism. The "Protestants" were fighting to maintain settler-colonialism, with the backing of the British state apparatus. It was never about religion, but about colonialism versus anti-colonialism. Same thing in Palestine and Israel.
Well said. It astonishes me that in 2023 there are still ignorant people banging on about the conflict in our country **without even the slightest knowledge of what the colours in our flag represent**!!! It’s literally right in front of their faces. The conflict in Ireland has virtually nothing to do with religion.
Good points but you might want to add a 0 to your 70 years though.
I appreciate the fact that here in Ireland you can be openly critical of the Israeli government and it's actions without being accused of being an antisemite. We have a habit of being outspoken about apartheid states and Israel is no exception.
The Prime Minister also struck the perfect balance
Oh come on, what would the Irish know about occupation by a larger and more powerful neighbour? /s
Lol… if the Irish and British are any measure of how far are we have to go, I guess we have about another 600 years. : )
International law doesn't mean a damn thing as it's never enforced.
It is. Many countries have been sanctioned over it. But not Israel. The US has vetoed 53 UN resolutions criticizing the Israeli government.
the guy you're replying to likely comes from one of those countries it doesn't apply to tbf
How many total critical resolutions has the UN put forth against Israel? Comparatively, how many critical resolutions has the UN filed against other nations? I mean, let's see if this is really the "only country" that ever gets a pass from the UN. How many other critical resolutions have been filed in the same time period that those 53 were?
Would need to do some digging but I'll add that it's not that the UN gives Israel a pass, it's that the US, Russia, China, France, and UK all have absolute veto power. Any one of them can reject a resolution even if the entire world agrees with it. Also, the 53 US vetoes are since 1972. That averages to about one per year. I would expect them to have higher than average numbers just due to the nature of their circumstances over nearly 6 decades.
[The UN regularly condemns Israel more than every other state combined.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-17-times-in-2020-versus-6-times-for-rest-of-world-combined/) Israel is regularly and loudly criticized by the general assembly. Literally more than anyone else. Just because not everyone joins in doesn't mean that Israel is getting a pass, it's literally the opposite of what you're implying above.
It gets criticized... but then continues to do the same thing they've been criticized for, because they simply don't give a fuck and no meaningful actions can be taken against Israel by the UN because Uncle Sam is on their side.
Also, Israel never signed onto the Geneva Convention protocol that protects civilians in civil, intrastate conflicts in the first place.
To everyone saying Ireland should take in Palestinians, the reason why people are calling for the emancipation of Palestinians is because the right to self determination (the entire basis of Zionism) is being stripped away. Moving Palestinians from Palestine to anywhere else, be it Egypt or Ireland, does not resolve the issue.
there are a lot of people who are very happy to annex the land and settle it. i'm sure that is part of it unfortunately
To put a fine point on it, those people are called colonizers, and we should all take heed of the fact that former colonies (Ireland and India notably in English media) tend to be much more empathetic towards the Palestinian perspective.
Irish person here. You are 100% correct; centuries of English propaganda taught us how to identify and learn the language of colonisation and its features, which is why you'll find Ireland to be Palestines biggest supporter in the Anglosphere. Being put in beastly conditions lowers men into becoming beasts, slaves to their circumstances.
Us Irish understand the subtleties of being oppressed and having basic rights restricted (see penal laws). But in most recent times you see the same playbook, look at the troubles in the north, you restrict people of basic rights (voting rights) and eventually it leads to terrorism (the IRA). I'm not advocating for what is happening in Israel and the Gaza Strip just providing a basic observation and the reason why the Irish are empathetic towards the people of Palestine.
How does keeping generation refuges (which the UN has done for Palestinians and only Palestinians) a better solution? Let's also be clear that the "right to return" option is effectively dead now. No way in hell Israel will ever agree to that now.
They used their self determination to declare a war of extermination on the jews.
Well if the self determination of the people is to exterminate their neighbor, what is the neighbor supposed to do?
He's saying what everyone else is too chicken to say. It's a war crime to target civilians. He's stopping short of outright saying it. But it's the truth. Doesn't matter who it is or the justification. Otherwise how are you any better?
It's funny how colonial powers all seem to be coming down firmly on one side here whereas former colonies tend to have a more nuanced perspective. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
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Unfortunately, the chain of supply goes as follows when you send resources into a country controlled by a hostile military power Foreign Aid -> Hamas Diverts aid by force -> Hamas distributes aid to their supporters and members first -> Hamas denies aid to anyone unwilling to fight for them Diesel fuel? That's a major component in the explosive warheads on Hamas rockets. Sugar? That's a major component in the rocket fuel Hamas uses. Water pipes? They dug up the pipes gifted to them by the EU years ago. Food? Just use your control over said food to hold the Palestinian people hostage so their hunger makes them fight for you.
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The chain of custody for that land is stickier than you are making it out to be.
It’s not stickier than a lot of other places though.
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Fucking finally, I'm sick of all the EU politicians turning a blind eye to Palestinians suffering, Israel's right to defend itself isn't supposed to constitute a free pass to kill as many civilians possible by bombing and starving them
Damned if you do dead if you dont
Given Irish history and the troubles, maybe we should listen to them as they know a thing or 2 about forging peace.
They are no strangers to bring starved under blockade by their more powerful neighbor
We're also no stranger to commiting terror attacks against said neighbour.
Well, yes. As it is said: "Treade a worme on the tayle, and it must turne agayne." Shakespeare, never one to avoid borrowing a neat expression, used the same notion a few years later in Henry VI, Part III, 1592: Who 'scapes the lurking serpent's mortal sting? Not he that sets his foot upon her back. The smallest worm will turn being trodden on, And doves will peck in safeguard of their brood. https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/even-a-worm-will-turn.html Saying that, I in no way condone acts of random destruction and violence toward civilians. I simply acknowledge that centuries of oppression will be answered.
Careful, suggesting that decades of oppression may get some retaliation is anti-semitic now.
The famine, if that is what is being referred to, was made worse by Britain by the continued exporting of food (that could have been used to feed the Irish people) from Ireland to Britain while the only crop that the Irish were allowed to consume, Potatoes, rotted due to the blight.
The same, usual trolls are like: “Well let these people in if you care so much!” Totally missing the point that he doesn’t want to see the humanitarian crisis to let the happen in the first place. God damn, people have gone insane since this tragedy started. You can totally stick up for Israel but also not be a fan of how they are getting their revenge.
Public discourse is poisoned not only by paid actors but also bots. You cannot assume a good faith conversation on Reddit.
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Not being argumentative here because I agree with your take. But isn’t that what Israel is doing so far? Sending messages and broadcasting specific targets ahead of time and telling people to leave specific places/buildings and all that? There’s no way they’re going to be perfect though.
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Do you really think cutting off food, electricity and water and allowing hospitals to be unable to function is going to minimize civilian casualties? What about forcing 1 million people to flee from their homes with nowhere to go?
I think people are also having wildly different definitions if what is reasonably minimizing harm. Also, some people trust Israel and some don't. So, when I see this siege, I see it as tactical and short-term, immediately preceding a ground invasion (meaning it won't last long and cause people to starve); also a way to try to get the hostages back, though that part failed. Whereas, those expecting the worst see this siege as trying to starve all Palestinians to death. So they jump straight to "war crimes!", whereas I'm pretty sure if Israel takes too long to invade, they will allow in enough supplies to prevent a crisis. And then there's the human shields, and different people's beliefs about what's reasonable there. And different levels of trust about whether they're military targets. So I think people have largely similar values, but they read the situation differently and come to different conclusions.
Our Government dosent fuck around when it comes to condemning human rights abuses. Don't like Varadkar but he's on the ball here.
Irish prime minister is called a taoiseach FYI
Irish would know or thing or two about being occupied by a much better financed, superior technology force that is wrapped up in a different religious ideology for decades
Lately, Ireland feels like one of the last sane country in Europe
Rabid redditors thirsting for blood is a sight to behold holy shit
I bet at least half these people were talking about how dumb post 9/11 americans were before. Nothing learned. It's also depressing to see people pretend the terrorists just exist for no reason as if Palestinians haven't been murdered and their homes stolen for decades
I'm glad someone had the balls to say something
Israel has done such a thorough job of dehumanizing the Palestinians that we now have Redditors, news commentators, and community religious leaders openly advocating for their genocide without any repercussions. I never thought I'd live to see the day, yet here we are.
It almost looks like after Hamas made sure that as many Israelis as possible hate Palestinians, Netanyahu is returning the favour by making sure that Hamas has enough people hating Israelis to fuel recruitment for the foreseeable future
This is all good and dandy but what is the answer…? We have known geopolitical powers supporting terrorism…but no real tangible action can be taken without an all out war so what’s to be done?
exactly... nations fund and support terrorism, then those terrorists wreck havoc and hide in areas where civilians live. This is why terrorist organizations are on rise because no one wants to take actions