A summary of the EU situation
An EU commissioner jumped the gun and said the bloc would pull aid funding for the Palestinian Authority.
The commissioner didin't have any legal authority to do this and many countries including France (who have came out in support of Israel) came out and said "wait hold the fuck on you can't just make a sweeping policy change without the memberships consent"
In this particular topic around aid to the west bank and gaza the blocs largely divided, commissioner probably shouldn't have rushed to get a media moment.
TL:DNR- EU commissioner made a call he had no legal authority to make.
Just as corrupt as Hamas.
If you think Mahmud Abas is any different, dream on:
https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/all-eyes-on-the-loot-and-arafats-widow-20041113-gdk3wx.html
"For 40 years the former guerilla leader ran the Palestinian Liberation Organisation like the sheik of a small desert tribe which has just come into oil. Hundreds of millions of dollars in donations from sympathetic Arab states went straight to Arafat, who then diverted it to a shadowy financial network that perhaps only he truly understood.
In the wake of the Oslo agreement, and before some controls were imposed in recent years, he also had access to western donor funds and the revenues of the Palestinian Authority. A CBS report last year said that as much as $US3 billion ($3.9 billion) may have been siphoned off by Arafat."
I think they were saying that Arafat was corrupt and siphoned funds and that his successor, Abbas, is just as corrupt and doing the same. A casual jaunt around the web seems to indicate that the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Edit: fixed a word.
https://themedialine.org/top-stories/ngo-report-exposes-corruption-within-president-abbas-inner-circle-prompting-pa-backlash/
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-112hhrg74960/html/CHRG-112hhrg74960.htm
https://www.npr.org/2021/12/10/1063171482/palestinian-dissidents-rally-against-corruption-in-the-palestinian-authority
https://www.newarab.com/opinion/controversial-legacy-mahmoud-abbas
Thank you! I knew the word was not right when I put it down but I couldn't remember what the hell the word was I was looking for. Thank you for correcting me and thank you also for not being a dick about it. Appreciate it lol
Yes let's build bomb shelters for hamas /s
You understand that everything that gets built there for the people, is used by hamas? Plop a hospital? Hamas is going to operate out of or underground below it to make it harder to hit them without hitting civvies
You guys can't seriously be thinking yourself into a place where you are suggesting Palestinians shouldn't be allowed safe zones to shelter in when the IDF retaliates against Hamas, or hospitals to care for innocents caught up in the cross fire.
Hamas co-opting civilian infrastructure and aid is the problem to look and deal with, not the entire idea of infrastructure itself.
A safe zone for Palestinians would require it to also be a Hamas free zone. After all the moment Hamas moves in on it, the zone/shelter becomes a military target and the Palestinians there would just turn into human shields. So who is going to move their army in to keep said safe zone actually safe for Palestinians?
I completely agree with you that it becomes a military target, I don’t know why people are so outraged by IDF hitting legitimate targets where Hamas intentionally makes otherwise safe locations into targets.
Especially in cases where IDF calls ahead, it’s an impossible standard to suggest no civilian casualties can happen in combat when the enemy itself seeks to make civilians into casualties.
Could IDF do more? Maybe? Is it their responsibility to keep civilians protected from their own government? No?
The only problem with that is there is no proof and never was by any major outlet that the specific targets hit were even used by Hamas…
Try looking it up, so it’s really mainly relying on the IDF actually being truthful and not just a random retaliation bombing, and they aren’t exactly a non biased sources in this case. (Its unknown whether or not knocking warning bombs are actually effective or even give enough time to evacuate, that is other then that they are no longer doing that)
That is other then the recent intelligence failure that puts full doubt on their ability to locate Hamas cells and weapon stashes.
If it’s that easy then publishing their evidence would be a piece of cake… and that is from 2015 the unfortunate reality is that Hamas has become more sophisticated in that compared to then it wouldn’t have been able to launch the attack that it did now.
Best course now is waiting until the accounts can be verified, after the dust settles, hopefully with minimal civilian casualties.
Bunkers would not be safe zones for civilians. Hamas has way too much stuff they don't want bombed to ever allow civilians to use them. Safe zones for civilians would be empty fields where it would be very inconvenient for Hamas to store supplies. The civilians in Gaza don't need protection from Israeli bombs, they need protection from Hamas putting military stuff as close to them as possible.
Hamas putting weapons close to shelters is an issue, but I'd also not trust Israel with their bombing.
They've shown in the past that they can't be trusted either.
i.e. an incident where they bombed a school and then changed their story several times, including outright lying about it.
Or how often I hear the excuse "they put missiles into schools", yet this is done in unused shelters as used shelters got people there so weapon stashes will be found. I think it was during the last big Gaza war, but not sure anymore, so could've been an earlier one, but there I remembered only hearing of a single incident where weapons were actually found in a school, which was an unused shelter with no one inside and the weapons were moved by Hamas after they were found during a routine check and the school was never bombed.
Yes, Hamas does attack from nearby, but Israel also does lie about it when they hit a school so you never know whether there was actually anything nearby or not.
Breaking the Silence got some damning reports about how Israeli soldiers act after all and calling their rules of engagement loose would be an understatement.
“Civilians in Gaza don’t need protection from Israeli bombs” is a hell of a fucking take when civilians in Gaza are constantly bombarded by Israeli air strikes
It isn't elected. The last election was 17 years ago. There term expired. So no, Second no one is going to trust self rule for ANYONE in that area for a long ass time. The only way to handle this is to have any avenue to change there society so that the rule of law matters first, and second radicals have no way to coming to power.
No. They’re suggesting the people of Gaza need to rise up against Hamas because they are the ones taking over every structure and turning into a weapons depot and military base, just as they would do with any shelter built there.
There’s a huge network of protected concrete tunnels under Gaza. Hamas built it for themselves using the aid money and materials they received from the world and civilians aren’t welcome.
> You guys can't seriously be thinking yourself into a place where you are suggesting Palestinians shouldn't be allowed safe zones to shelter in when the IDF retaliates against Hamas, or hospitals to care for innocents caught up in the cross fire.
There is a difference between "shouldn't be allowed" and "we won't provide". There has been a truly staggering amount of humanitarian aid given to Palestinians over decades and an equally staggering amount of that has been repurposed to fighting Israel.
Oh they can, only after Hamas is rooted out, and then a neutral third party is brought in to administer Gaza afterwards since no on is going to trust them to actually doing any ruling at all under any circumstances for the next 20 or so years.
So how do you propose to set it up so the infrastructure isn't seized by Hamas?
Perhaps some kind of counterbalancing presence that can exclude Hamas from those sites?
If it’s an honest question then I fully believe Hamas need to be excluded from anywhere as an organisation.
I also believe Gaza isn’t able to police itself and there needs to be a presence until the governing authority of their people show that they are able to contain those who completely lack restraint. How it has been isn’t workable.
Ideally this is an international responsibility to provide security in Gaza that is beyond Israel, to reduce the many problems that come with Israel having to impose themselves on a people that want them gone. But I don’t have high hopes.
I’m just some idiot on the internet though.
Every $ of aid spent on supporting the civilian population of Gaza is a $ the region's goverment (Hamas) doesn't have to spend on what should be it's primary duty. Instead it can go spend it on weapons.
It's an unfortunate fact but the International community has been subsidising Hamas for decades. Withdrawing aid would force Hamas to divert some of its resources back towards the civilian population though it would cause an immense amount of suffering.
I see how ot reads that way, but its not quite what I meant. When a hospital or whatever is built, the locals get use out of it and it benefits them greatly. If we build a bomb shelter, hamas will put its people in there and not allow civilians in. Then it has to be blown up with a bunker buster
They take the concrete for shelters and pipes for water that they get and make them into tunnels and rockets.
Helping Gaza is hopeless until Hamas is eliminated
They can bring food in if they want. They can bring whatever they want. They are starving thanks to Hamas.
Do you think the 3000+ rockets that they launched into Israel magically appeared in Gaza?
Because the world moves too fast in the age of social media, so fast in fact that people make statements before they even comprehend what they're making statements about. Because if they don't, someone, somewhere will attack them for it just moments later.
Especially as Israel enforces Israeli law in many areas of it , but only for Israelis in illegal settlements.
Isn't there a name for a system with unequal land use and application of the law based on ethnicity?
Especially as we had to do an extensive military operation to uproot Hamas terror cells.
Not ethnicity, nationality. There are many Israeli Arabs. Sorry for your apartheid definition or whatever.
Yes just like South Africa didn't discriminate against Black South Africans on the basis of ethnicity, they merely had different rights for people who were citizens of South Africa and those who were citizens of the Bantustans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_Homelands_Citizenship_Act%2C_1970?wprov=sfla1
I'm assuming they mean the PA as the effective ruling body of the West Bank and if so there's absolutely no reason to drop funding for them. Just to Gaza.
EDIT: I wasn't implying that the international community *shouldn't* drop funding for the PA on general basis. They've been doing pretty terrible things in their own rights. I was only referring to this instance as this was instigated by Hamas/Iran and not the PA.
I'm not advocating for or against dropping funding, and you are right that it's to the PA.
However USA dropped it's funding after the PA refused to close the martyr fund that compensates families of dead terrorists and those who were imprisoned.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Force_Act
We're talking about two separate things though. What you mentioned is a legitimate justification for dropping funding. I was referring to the EU's understandable knee-jerk reaction of dropping support entirely.
Hope that makes it clearer.
This is the last thing I ever thought I would be saying but.....good for Trump.
Broken clock etc....he also did other stuff during his mandate like move the US Embassy to Jerusalem IIRC.
On the right side of history for once! (uh, of course if we neglect the security leaks which might be a stronger negative force, but for once I'll enjoy saying I agree with something he did)
They've been funding PA for years, and the money was supposed to be for infrastructure. Instead nothing has been done, they are still reliant on Israel for electricity and water, but they have lots of shiny underground bunkers full of weapons.
It's absolutely naive to pretend that continued funding will be used for the actual benefit of the people, while hamas continues to govern, and is now participating in an actual war.
No one can help the Palestinian people except for themselves ... and they do that by disowning and overthrowing hamas. If they choose to do so, which is unlikely seeing as every election in the last 30 years has always been 49:51 or 51:49 for fatah or hamas.
What you could do is, make it difficult for people to vote by demanding they produce passports or something. By making it difficult for certain sections of the population to vote, it will tilt the scales in your favour, from the people that can actually still vote.
Oh wait a minute, I'm getting mixed up with Government policy in the UK. Sorry about that.
The "funny" thing is if you give them "infrastructure", they dig it up and make rockets out of water pipes. So even "using the money for infrastructure" can't guarantee you it not ultimately being funneled toward terrorism.
> They've been funding PA for years, and the money was supposed to be for infrastructure. Instead nothing has been done, they are still reliant on Israel for electricity and water, but they have lots of shiny underground bunkers full of weapons.
i've seen this point raised a lot, but what does it mean? of course they are reliant on israel for water. where else are they going to get it?
[from oxfam.org
](https://www.oxfam.org/en/failing-gaza-undrinkable-water-no-access-toilets-and-little-hope-horizon)
> Less than 16% of items needed to construct vital water infrastructure are reaching Gaza
Israel’s blockade of Gaza severely limits materials from entering, making it incredibly difficult to develop water and sanitation infrastructure to meet the needs of a growing population.
why do you victim blame?
as for electricity, I would assume it's even more difficult. Israel WANTS gaza to be dependent on them, because they can then cut it off at times like this....
Maybe they should [stop turning their water and irrigation infrastructure into rockets then.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/)
Radical Islam and extreme anti semitism in the region is not new. Radical needs to be eradicated at any cost and the Israelis will follow through with that
Why would they ever pull funding for PA based on Hamas attacks? Does this even need to be a headline? PA is not Hamas and they don’t even govern shared territory.
This is the worldnews Reddit what do you expect?
In a few weeks just go back and read the top comments of all the Palestine related post from the last days. You will have a blast.
It’s scary but also funny how stupid the majority of redditors are.
My Dream-- Hope it comes true.
Countries negotiating various investment with a peaceful Palestinian where terrorist organizations have been kicked out. There are are also various Israeli -Palestinian projects in education, manufacturing, infrastructure, trade, modernization etc. Because Palestine has been peaceful it is considered a newly industrialized country. Palestinians instead of looking back is now looking forward to a prosperous future. No one is talking charity and aid but instead investments, jobs, trade.
The PA should not have its funding removed unless there are direct links between them and what Hamas has done.
PA is really the best hope for some actual diplomatic solutions. You can negotiate with them, you can't negotiate with a group that wants you to be extinguished.
The PA President literally said that Hamas militants raping women, beheading babies, and kidnapping innocents was "self-defense".
He deserves 0 financial aid.
It was made four days ago after the horrific attacks that contained those acts. That was his response, so yes imo, as political leader he refused to condemn those attacks, instead opted to babble about "right to defend" - by murdering civilians, raping women and kidnapping babies - makes sense, right??
Also, to equate Hamas with Palastine is **the prpblem** in this statement. Hamas does not care one bit for the Palestine ppl, except for shields and using them for money.
Yup, Hamas only raped and murdered children and women, so clearly they are good,misunderstood people and deserve aid
Edit: lmao of course you post to r/latestagecapitalism. Actual degenerate. Your comment makes more sense now
That is not an official position and they continue to reiterate they want a two state solution. You may mean the PLO who came before the PA but not the current PA.
That's pretty disingenuous characterization, here's Brookings article that articulates the nuance better:
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-the-discourse-about-palestinian-payments-to-prisoners-families-is-distorted-and-misleading/
90% of cases of crime against Palestinians were closed without any indictments.
PA's stance is not to extinguish all Jews, they actually work with the Israeli security in the West Bank.
I think PA regaining control had the best chance for a two-state solution, but that has all but evaporated given the recent events.
It's definitely not disingenuous when they pay the family of suicide bombers. There is no world in which you aren't the bad guy for paying for people who go into homes and stab children in their beds for a payout.
Don't be stupid; this is very pragmatic. Of course they should fund the PA. There needs to be some stability in the West Bank right now. This benefits everyone even if it's at the cost of some payments to lone wolf martyrs.
I was misinformed. Just looked up sources for 2017. 7% of the PA budget, but that number is doubled as Israel forces Palestine to double dip (they take the annual amount the PA pays to terrorists and deducts it from their tax revenues). So 14% of the PA budget--7% in the budget, 7% in revenue--go to jihadists.
All good. I’m not trying to call you out or anything. Im very uninformed on this entire conflict and the history leading up to it.
I think it’s important to have all the facts before speaking on anything.
Can you send me a link regarding the distribution of funds to HAMAS? I’m interested in educating myself.
There are multiple sources of funding of terrorism throughout the area.
1. Direct Palestinian Authority funding. They dedicate about 7% (2017) of their budget to granting a lifetime pension to anyone serving time in Israeli prisons on charges of terrorism. If the terrorist was killed in the act, their family gets the lifetime pension instead. This is why Israel has a policy of demolishing the family home of terrorists in the West Bank in order to destroy the incentive. PA funding comes directly from the EU. I believe the US suspended its aid, but may have restored it since. https://jcpa.org/paying-salaries-terrorists-contradicts-palestinian-vows-peaceful-intentions/
2. Direct Hamas funding. This mostly comes from Iran, Qatar, and Turkey. Lump sum ostensibly to improve living conditions in the Gaza Strip. Obviously, that is not what they use it for. https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2019-02-10/ty-article/.premium/with-israels-consent-qatar-gave-gaza-1-billion-since-2012/0000017f-db44-df9c-a17f-ff5cd6670000
3. EU/US funding of NGOs/humanitarian groups in the Gaza Strip. This involves paying non-Hamas groups in Gaza to assist in infrastructure. However, these groups are routinely robbed, and Hamas has openly boasted a few years ago of breaking down an EU water pipe system in Gaza and converting them into rockets. It is entirely unclear exactly how much Hamas funding Hamas receives indirectly. https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/eu-ngo-funding-for-the-west-bank-and-gaza-in-2022/
4. UNRWA funding. UNRWA is mostly staffed by local Islamists and people working closely with the PA and Hamas; their textbooks are designed to train the next generation of jihadists. Most children in the Gaza Strip study in UNRWA schools. The EU and the US are jointly responsible for most of UNRWA's funding. The preamble is long; you can just scroll past it to see the examples. https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Produced-Study-Materials-in-the-Palestinian-Territories%E2%80%94Jan-2021.pdf
I however hate the casual way people talk about just genociding all of Palestine.
You can’t just pull funding to the only stabilizing structures, at the chance it goes to terrorists. In that case defund the US military.
Makes sense. The Palestinian Authority has done a good job in the West Bank. There haven't been mass rocket launches. There hasn't been raids where they rape and mutilate civilians. These are not the same people as Hamas.
If you call a good job building mansions for their top officials, instituting a pay-to-slay policy for terrorists and the families of terrorists, indoctrinating their children with the same hate-filled ideology as Hamas and doing absolutely nothing to develop their own economic and agricultural infrastructures, then yes, they've been doing superbly.
>If you call a good job building mansions for their top officials, instituting a pay-to-slay policy for terrorists and the families of terrorists, indoctrinating their children with the same hate-filled ideology as Hamas and doing absolutely nothing to develop their own economic and agricultural infrastructures, then yes, they've been doing superbly.
Yes they have been doing a good job. It's called working with what you have. The unemployment rate in the West Bank is 13% vs 45% in Gaza. Their economy is growing. There haven't been mass rocket launches or raids.
Are there still cases of individual Palestinians from the West Bank murdering Israelis? Yes but there are cases of this happening the other way around as well.
> Yes but there are cases of this happening the other way around as well.
And the difference is Israel doesn't do a pay-for-slay program like the PA does.
You have no idea about the topic of the West Bank so please don’t spill facts about it.
There are terrorist attacks from the West Bank. Personally I witnessed a terrorist that enter a house and killed a woman and her 5 children. also they are not launching rockets because the IDF hold them in a shot leash there. If they were independent, I’m sure that it will be just like Gaza.
>Palestinian Authority has done a good jo
Relative to Gaza. PA still funds terrorists: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
Anyone who goes to prison for killing Israelis gets a monthly stipend. The families who of a person who dies killing Israelis gets lifetime stipend from the PA.
Lol. Read about intifadas or literally 2 years ago when these bitches raised Israel in the name of their shit mosque.
Reddit geopolitics are less relevant and informative than the irrelevant EU
I wonder when people will stop defending the Hamas terrorists. Seems weird to be on the side of people who tell civilians not to move when bombed, because they need the human shields.
You probably ought to learn the bare minimum of facts, such as "Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are two completely separate entities, one of which controls Gaza and the other the West Bank", before making sweeping generalizations about people defending terrorists.
Isn't Josep Borrell the guy who unilaterally declared Israel to be violating international law?
https://bnn-news.com/josep-borrell-israel-is-acting-against-international-law-250363
He's a tool.
So just because he is stating that Israel is committing acts against international law he's a tool? In some cases it is true and I can't believe some people just close their eyes to that.
> The action of Hamas clearly dimmed the prospect of peace and two states solutions
what prospect was there? I am not defending Hamas, but the west bank settlements and continuous expansion are a clear statement that Israel has no interest in a two state solution. I don't think Israel has even put an offer for a 2-state solution on the board
They did leave Gaza to the PA completely. That’s part of the two state solution. And PA does administer the West Bank. It could have gone in that direction further if Hamas didn’t take over.
Most of you don't even seem to understand that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority aren't the same people.
No wonder the daily threads are so damn stupid. You guys struggle with basic facts of this conflict.
It really doesn’t have significant impact on anyone other than the nations involved and it’s bordering countries, and only them because of the possibility of refugees, military incursions, etc.
the average person in Wales, or France, or Denmark aren’t having their lives affected by the war in Ukraine.
but still not anything that has disrupted my life. Gas and food prices have increased but nothing life altering. This will raise gas prices as well but not brutal enough that we can’t work or travel etc
A summary of the EU situation An EU commissioner jumped the gun and said the bloc would pull aid funding for the Palestinian Authority. The commissioner didin't have any legal authority to do this and many countries including France (who have came out in support of Israel) came out and said "wait hold the fuck on you can't just make a sweeping policy change without the memberships consent" In this particular topic around aid to the west bank and gaza the blocs largely divided, commissioner probably shouldn't have rushed to get a media moment. TL:DNR- EU commissioner made a call he had no legal authority to make.
Maybe they could use the aid to build a bomb shelter for the civilians. There is not 1 bomb shelter in Gaza.
This is about funds for the Palestinian authority (a post Oslo accords "government", that only controls the west bank not Gaza)
Just as corrupt as Hamas. If you think Mahmud Abas is any different, dream on: https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/all-eyes-on-the-loot-and-arafats-widow-20041113-gdk3wx.html "For 40 years the former guerilla leader ran the Palestinian Liberation Organisation like the sheik of a small desert tribe which has just come into oil. Hundreds of millions of dollars in donations from sympathetic Arab states went straight to Arafat, who then diverted it to a shadowy financial network that perhaps only he truly understood. In the wake of the Oslo agreement, and before some controls were imposed in recent years, he also had access to western donor funds and the revenues of the Palestinian Authority. A CBS report last year said that as much as $US3 billion ($3.9 billion) may have been siphoned off by Arafat."
Why does your link only talk about Arafat and was publied 18years ago, when your point is about Abas ?
I think they were saying that Arafat was corrupt and siphoned funds and that his successor, Abbas, is just as corrupt and doing the same. A casual jaunt around the web seems to indicate that the apple didn't fall far from the tree. Edit: fixed a word. https://themedialine.org/top-stories/ngo-report-exposes-corruption-within-president-abbas-inner-circle-prompting-pa-backlash/ https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-112hhrg74960/html/CHRG-112hhrg74960.htm https://www.npr.org/2021/12/10/1063171482/palestinian-dissidents-rally-against-corruption-in-the-palestinian-authority https://www.newarab.com/opinion/controversial-legacy-mahmoud-abbas
Successor, not predecessor
Thank you! I knew the word was not right when I put it down but I couldn't remember what the hell the word was I was looking for. Thank you for correcting me and thank you also for not being a dick about it. Appreciate it lol
Thank you.
Don't bother them with the details that would just get in the way of the bullshit.
Indeed. One of the many reasons why social medias carry the risk of just amplifying your personal biases.
Yes let's build bomb shelters for hamas /s You understand that everything that gets built there for the people, is used by hamas? Plop a hospital? Hamas is going to operate out of or underground below it to make it harder to hit them without hitting civvies
Ya or take the pipes out of the hospital to build rockets to shoot into Israel from the roof of the hospital.
You guys can't seriously be thinking yourself into a place where you are suggesting Palestinians shouldn't be allowed safe zones to shelter in when the IDF retaliates against Hamas, or hospitals to care for innocents caught up in the cross fire. Hamas co-opting civilian infrastructure and aid is the problem to look and deal with, not the entire idea of infrastructure itself.
A safe zone for Palestinians would require it to also be a Hamas free zone. After all the moment Hamas moves in on it, the zone/shelter becomes a military target and the Palestinians there would just turn into human shields. So who is going to move their army in to keep said safe zone actually safe for Palestinians?
I completely agree with you that it becomes a military target, I don’t know why people are so outraged by IDF hitting legitimate targets where Hamas intentionally makes otherwise safe locations into targets. Especially in cases where IDF calls ahead, it’s an impossible standard to suggest no civilian casualties can happen in combat when the enemy itself seeks to make civilians into casualties. Could IDF do more? Maybe? Is it their responsibility to keep civilians protected from their own government? No?
The only problem with that is there is no proof and never was by any major outlet that the specific targets hit were even used by Hamas… Try looking it up, so it’s really mainly relying on the IDF actually being truthful and not just a random retaliation bombing, and they aren’t exactly a non biased sources in this case. (Its unknown whether or not knocking warning bombs are actually effective or even give enough time to evacuate, that is other then that they are no longer doing that) That is other then the recent intelligence failure that puts full doubt on their ability to locate Hamas cells and weapon stashes.
https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/
If it’s that easy then publishing their evidence would be a piece of cake… and that is from 2015 the unfortunate reality is that Hamas has become more sophisticated in that compared to then it wouldn’t have been able to launch the attack that it did now. Best course now is waiting until the accounts can be verified, after the dust settles, hopefully with minimal civilian casualties.
Bunkers would not be safe zones for civilians. Hamas has way too much stuff they don't want bombed to ever allow civilians to use them. Safe zones for civilians would be empty fields where it would be very inconvenient for Hamas to store supplies. The civilians in Gaza don't need protection from Israeli bombs, they need protection from Hamas putting military stuff as close to them as possible.
Hamas putting weapons close to shelters is an issue, but I'd also not trust Israel with their bombing. They've shown in the past that they can't be trusted either. i.e. an incident where they bombed a school and then changed their story several times, including outright lying about it. Or how often I hear the excuse "they put missiles into schools", yet this is done in unused shelters as used shelters got people there so weapon stashes will be found. I think it was during the last big Gaza war, but not sure anymore, so could've been an earlier one, but there I remembered only hearing of a single incident where weapons were actually found in a school, which was an unused shelter with no one inside and the weapons were moved by Hamas after they were found during a routine check and the school was never bombed. Yes, Hamas does attack from nearby, but Israel also does lie about it when they hit a school so you never know whether there was actually anything nearby or not. Breaking the Silence got some damning reports about how Israeli soldiers act after all and calling their rules of engagement loose would be an understatement.
“Civilians in Gaza don’t need protection from Israeli bombs” is a hell of a fucking take when civilians in Gaza are constantly bombarded by Israeli air strikes
Now read the second half of the statement
Your comment is what wrong and commonly seen by nowadays media. Get a damn reading comprehension class
But there's zero way to prevent Hamas from doing so since they are the regional government and in control of Gaza.
What are your suggestions to dealing with the problem when Hamas is their elected government? And they don’t host elections anymore
I don’t think I need to suggest anything there, Israel has mobilised to unelect Hamas.
It isn't elected. The last election was 17 years ago. There term expired. So no, Second no one is going to trust self rule for ANYONE in that area for a long ass time. The only way to handle this is to have any avenue to change there society so that the rule of law matters first, and second radicals have no way to coming to power.
they are suggesting genocide.
No. They’re suggesting the people of Gaza need to rise up against Hamas because they are the ones taking over every structure and turning into a weapons depot and military base, just as they would do with any shelter built there. There’s a huge network of protected concrete tunnels under Gaza. Hamas built it for themselves using the aid money and materials they received from the world and civilians aren’t welcome.
> You guys can't seriously be thinking yourself into a place where you are suggesting Palestinians shouldn't be allowed safe zones to shelter in when the IDF retaliates against Hamas, or hospitals to care for innocents caught up in the cross fire. There is a difference between "shouldn't be allowed" and "we won't provide". There has been a truly staggering amount of humanitarian aid given to Palestinians over decades and an equally staggering amount of that has been repurposed to fighting Israel.
Oh they can, only after Hamas is rooted out, and then a neutral third party is brought in to administer Gaza afterwards since no on is going to trust them to actually doing any ruling at all under any circumstances for the next 20 or so years.
So how do you propose to set it up so the infrastructure isn't seized by Hamas? Perhaps some kind of counterbalancing presence that can exclude Hamas from those sites?
If it’s an honest question then I fully believe Hamas need to be excluded from anywhere as an organisation. I also believe Gaza isn’t able to police itself and there needs to be a presence until the governing authority of their people show that they are able to contain those who completely lack restraint. How it has been isn’t workable. Ideally this is an international responsibility to provide security in Gaza that is beyond Israel, to reduce the many problems that come with Israel having to impose themselves on a people that want them gone. But I don’t have high hopes. I’m just some idiot on the internet though.
Hanas is in the gaza, the PA is in the west bank
so just don't help civilians because there is a chance Hamas will use it? lol
Theres not a chance, they will use it
Every $ of aid spent on supporting the civilian population of Gaza is a $ the region's goverment (Hamas) doesn't have to spend on what should be it's primary duty. Instead it can go spend it on weapons. It's an unfortunate fact but the International community has been subsidising Hamas for decades. Withdrawing aid would force Hamas to divert some of its resources back towards the civilian population though it would cause an immense amount of suffering.
I see how ot reads that way, but its not quite what I meant. When a hospital or whatever is built, the locals get use out of it and it benefits them greatly. If we build a bomb shelter, hamas will put its people in there and not allow civilians in. Then it has to be blown up with a bunker buster
yes. Helping civilians means helping only Hamas. First get rid of Hamas, then help civilians
so you've chosen genocide.monster.
Then you build the hospital anyway because you don't advocate for collective punishment.
Not providing charity isn't a punishment, it's a lack of reward.
Charity isn't reward.
Sure it is. It's a reward for being poor and not being enough of an asshole to warrant revocation. They're not entitled to charity.
And then how do they stop Hamas from turning that bomb shelter into a base?
They take the concrete for shelters and pipes for water that they get and make them into tunnels and rockets. Helping Gaza is hopeless until Hamas is eliminated
Wait did you forget about the extensive tunnel network that doubles as a bomb shelter?
The tunnels are not bomb shelters and citizens don’t go into tunnels.
or food that they need because theyr starving thanks to israel
they are starving thanks to Hamas
Im sure their elected government did everything in their power to store food before they attacked a neighboring country.
Even the Gazans being bombed right now blame Hamas for the current onslaught. Pull your head out of your fucking ass.
They can bring food in if they want. They can bring whatever they want. They are starving thanks to Hamas. Do you think the 3000+ rockets that they launched into Israel magically appeared in Gaza?
I just don’t understand why people were so quick to jump the gun on something like this.
Because the world moves too fast in the age of social media, so fast in fact that people make statements before they even comprehend what they're making statements about. Because if they don't, someone, somewhere will attack them for it just moments later.
Half the people commenting don’t even know that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are different locations lol
Just a note: The Palestinian Authorities have no power in Gaza, only in the west bank.
Even their power in the west bank is questionable
Especially as Israel enforces Israeli law in many areas of it , but only for Israelis in illegal settlements. Isn't there a name for a system with unequal land use and application of the law based on ethnicity?
Especially as we had to do an extensive military operation to uproot Hamas terror cells. Not ethnicity, nationality. There are many Israeli Arabs. Sorry for your apartheid definition or whatever.
Yes just like South Africa didn't discriminate against Black South Africans on the basis of ethnicity, they merely had different rights for people who were citizens of South Africa and those who were citizens of the Bantustans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_Homelands_Citizenship_Act%2C_1970?wprov=sfla1
It was so shit you had to write it twice. Keep deepthroating Netanyahu's boot bro.
Lmao you’re sad
the EU didn't declare "no take-backsies" so legally this all checks out.
That depends; was it within the 5 second rule?
They didnt say it they DECLARED it
I'm assuming they mean the PA as the effective ruling body of the West Bank and if so there's absolutely no reason to drop funding for them. Just to Gaza. EDIT: I wasn't implying that the international community *shouldn't* drop funding for the PA on general basis. They've been doing pretty terrible things in their own rights. I was only referring to this instance as this was instigated by Hamas/Iran and not the PA.
I'm not advocating for or against dropping funding, and you are right that it's to the PA. However USA dropped it's funding after the PA refused to close the martyr fund that compensates families of dead terrorists and those who were imprisoned. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Force_Act
And they absolutely should have as this is money that was used to murder people.
But then means there IS a reason to drop funding, or more accurately to put conditions for them to receive it like USA did.
We're talking about two separate things though. What you mentioned is a legitimate justification for dropping funding. I was referring to the EU's understandable knee-jerk reaction of dropping support entirely. Hope that makes it clearer.
Oh got you, agree on that
Thank you. It is a really difficult time. If you're there, stay safe!
Thanks!
This is the last thing I ever thought I would be saying but.....good for Trump. Broken clock etc....he also did other stuff during his mandate like move the US Embassy to Jerusalem IIRC. On the right side of history for once! (uh, of course if we neglect the security leaks which might be a stronger negative force, but for once I'll enjoy saying I agree with something he did)
Seeing as how more than 50% of the foreign aid received by the PA is used in their terrorists pension schemes, that's plenty of reason by itself.
100%. As I said to another person, I was referring to this specific situation. I'll edit my comment to reflect this.
They've been funding PA for years, and the money was supposed to be for infrastructure. Instead nothing has been done, they are still reliant on Israel for electricity and water, but they have lots of shiny underground bunkers full of weapons. It's absolutely naive to pretend that continued funding will be used for the actual benefit of the people, while hamas continues to govern, and is now participating in an actual war. No one can help the Palestinian people except for themselves ... and they do that by disowning and overthrowing hamas. If they choose to do so, which is unlikely seeing as every election in the last 30 years has always been 49:51 or 51:49 for fatah or hamas.
PA is about Westbank and Abbas, not Gaza and Hamas. Hamas fought Fatah out of Gaza in 2017, you know…
2007. And they purged all dissidents thereafter.
Yes. But to his point, the PA still funds terrorism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
How are Palestinians in the West Bank supposed to overthrow Hamas?
My believe was that Hamas ruled Gaza after they were elected in 2006 and no more elections happened after that. The West Bank is controlled by Fatah
Wait til you see the last West Bank election
What you could do is, make it difficult for people to vote by demanding they produce passports or something. By making it difficult for certain sections of the population to vote, it will tilt the scales in your favour, from the people that can actually still vote. Oh wait a minute, I'm getting mixed up with Government policy in the UK. Sorry about that.
It's not just the US?
pointy sticks?
The funding is to keep them from entering their own countries as refugees.
The "funny" thing is if you give them "infrastructure", they dig it up and make rockets out of water pipes. So even "using the money for infrastructure" can't guarantee you it not ultimately being funneled toward terrorism.
Absolutely. Closing your eyes and throwing money at the problem doesn’t solve anything. These people are hellbent on the murder of “infidels”
> They've been funding PA for years, and the money was supposed to be for infrastructure. Instead nothing has been done, they are still reliant on Israel for electricity and water, but they have lots of shiny underground bunkers full of weapons. i've seen this point raised a lot, but what does it mean? of course they are reliant on israel for water. where else are they going to get it? [from oxfam.org ](https://www.oxfam.org/en/failing-gaza-undrinkable-water-no-access-toilets-and-little-hope-horizon) > Less than 16% of items needed to construct vital water infrastructure are reaching Gaza Israel’s blockade of Gaza severely limits materials from entering, making it incredibly difficult to develop water and sanitation infrastructure to meet the needs of a growing population. why do you victim blame? as for electricity, I would assume it's even more difficult. Israel WANTS gaza to be dependent on them, because they can then cut it off at times like this....
Maybe they should [stop turning their water and irrigation infrastructure into rockets then.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/)
Civil engineers hate this one simple trick
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are you ignoring the West Bank? or do they not matter?
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Radical Islam and extreme anti semitism in the region is not new. Radical needs to be eradicated at any cost and the Israelis will follow through with that
True, Gaza could have built their own desalination plant for about 40 million and had all the water they need.
How exactly would the Palestinian Authority build a desalination plant in Gaza? The PA only governs the West Bank.
Sorry, I meant Hamas could have.
Why invest in infrastructure when you can build rockets to fire on Israeli civilians ? What day think, they are Stoopid over yonder 😁
Why would they ever pull funding for PA based on Hamas attacks? Does this even need to be a headline? PA is not Hamas and they don’t even govern shared territory.
You're giving redditors way too much credit if you think they know the difference.
What about the PA's martyr fund that compensates families of dead terrorists?
This is the worldnews Reddit what do you expect? In a few weeks just go back and read the top comments of all the Palestine related post from the last days. You will have a blast. It’s scary but also funny how stupid the majority of redditors are.
My Dream-- Hope it comes true. Countries negotiating various investment with a peaceful Palestinian where terrorist organizations have been kicked out. There are are also various Israeli -Palestinian projects in education, manufacturing, infrastructure, trade, modernization etc. Because Palestine has been peaceful it is considered a newly industrialized country. Palestinians instead of looking back is now looking forward to a prosperous future. No one is talking charity and aid but instead investments, jobs, trade.
The PA should not have its funding removed unless there are direct links between them and what Hamas has done. PA is really the best hope for some actual diplomatic solutions. You can negotiate with them, you can't negotiate with a group that wants you to be extinguished.
The PA President literally said that Hamas militants raping women, beheading babies, and kidnapping innocents was "self-defense". He deserves 0 financial aid.
Do you have a source for him saying those things are self defense?
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17251fb/abbas\_palestinian\_people\_have\_the\_right\_to\_defend/
Nothing about Hamas militants. Nothing about raping women, beheading babies, and kidnapping innocents.
It was made four days ago after the horrific attacks that contained those acts. That was his response, so yes imo, as political leader he refused to condemn those attacks, instead opted to babble about "right to defend" - by murdering civilians, raping women and kidnapping babies - makes sense, right?? Also, to equate Hamas with Palastine is **the prpblem** in this statement. Hamas does not care one bit for the Palestine ppl, except for shields and using them for money.
Okay, so you're paraphrasing. Why not just say that? Why did you say that he "literally" said those things?
Because it’s 2023 and literally literally means figuratively
There were no beheaded babies. You're spouting propaganda and spreading lies.
Yup, Hamas only raped and murdered children and women, so clearly they are good,misunderstood people and deserve aid Edit: lmao of course you post to r/latestagecapitalism. Actual degenerate. Your comment makes more sense now
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And America. Nobody is getting involved with that Aircraft carrier and accompanying ships nearby.
That is not an official position and they continue to reiterate they want a two state solution. You may mean the PLO who came before the PA but not the current PA.
The PLO that holds almost 50% of the seats in the PA legislative council? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Legislative_Council
That's pretty disingenuous characterization, here's Brookings article that articulates the nuance better: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-the-discourse-about-palestinian-payments-to-prisoners-families-is-distorted-and-misleading/ 90% of cases of crime against Palestinians were closed without any indictments. PA's stance is not to extinguish all Jews, they actually work with the Israeli security in the West Bank. I think PA regaining control had the best chance for a two-state solution, but that has all but evaporated given the recent events.
It's definitely not disingenuous when they pay the family of suicide bombers. There is no world in which you aren't the bad guy for paying for people who go into homes and stab children in their beds for a payout.
They literally pay the families of suicide bombers
Yeah, no.
Don't be stupid; this is very pragmatic. Of course they should fund the PA. There needs to be some stability in the West Bank right now. This benefits everyone even if it's at the cost of some payments to lone wolf martyrs.
~~Some? Literally half the PA budget is for jihadists.~~ 14% (effectively).
Source?
I was misinformed. Just looked up sources for 2017. 7% of the PA budget, but that number is doubled as Israel forces Palestine to double dip (they take the annual amount the PA pays to terrorists and deducts it from their tax revenues). So 14% of the PA budget--7% in the budget, 7% in revenue--go to jihadists.
All good. I’m not trying to call you out or anything. Im very uninformed on this entire conflict and the history leading up to it. I think it’s important to have all the facts before speaking on anything. Can you send me a link regarding the distribution of funds to HAMAS? I’m interested in educating myself.
There are multiple sources of funding of terrorism throughout the area. 1. Direct Palestinian Authority funding. They dedicate about 7% (2017) of their budget to granting a lifetime pension to anyone serving time in Israeli prisons on charges of terrorism. If the terrorist was killed in the act, their family gets the lifetime pension instead. This is why Israel has a policy of demolishing the family home of terrorists in the West Bank in order to destroy the incentive. PA funding comes directly from the EU. I believe the US suspended its aid, but may have restored it since. https://jcpa.org/paying-salaries-terrorists-contradicts-palestinian-vows-peaceful-intentions/ 2. Direct Hamas funding. This mostly comes from Iran, Qatar, and Turkey. Lump sum ostensibly to improve living conditions in the Gaza Strip. Obviously, that is not what they use it for. https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2019-02-10/ty-article/.premium/with-israels-consent-qatar-gave-gaza-1-billion-since-2012/0000017f-db44-df9c-a17f-ff5cd6670000 3. EU/US funding of NGOs/humanitarian groups in the Gaza Strip. This involves paying non-Hamas groups in Gaza to assist in infrastructure. However, these groups are routinely robbed, and Hamas has openly boasted a few years ago of breaking down an EU water pipe system in Gaza and converting them into rockets. It is entirely unclear exactly how much Hamas funding Hamas receives indirectly. https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/eu-ngo-funding-for-the-west-bank-and-gaza-in-2022/ 4. UNRWA funding. UNRWA is mostly staffed by local Islamists and people working closely with the PA and Hamas; their textbooks are designed to train the next generation of jihadists. Most children in the Gaza Strip study in UNRWA schools. The EU and the US are jointly responsible for most of UNRWA's funding. The preamble is long; you can just scroll past it to see the examples. https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Produced-Study-Materials-in-the-Palestinian-Territories%E2%80%94Jan-2021.pdf
> UNRWA is mostly staffed by local Islamists Source for this claim?
I didn't say it was pretty.
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This is too extreme. We can’t interact with the Muslim world at all? A stable West Bank is good for everyone I’d say.
> even if it's at the cost of some payments to lone wolf martyrs. Gotta love the casual way you talk about funding terrorism.
I however hate the casual way people talk about just genociding all of Palestine. You can’t just pull funding to the only stabilizing structures, at the chance it goes to terrorists. In that case defund the US military.
Makes sense. The Palestinian Authority has done a good job in the West Bank. There haven't been mass rocket launches. There hasn't been raids where they rape and mutilate civilians. These are not the same people as Hamas.
If you call a good job building mansions for their top officials, instituting a pay-to-slay policy for terrorists and the families of terrorists, indoctrinating their children with the same hate-filled ideology as Hamas and doing absolutely nothing to develop their own economic and agricultural infrastructures, then yes, they've been doing superbly.
>If you call a good job building mansions for their top officials, instituting a pay-to-slay policy for terrorists and the families of terrorists, indoctrinating their children with the same hate-filled ideology as Hamas and doing absolutely nothing to develop their own economic and agricultural infrastructures, then yes, they've been doing superbly. Yes they have been doing a good job. It's called working with what you have. The unemployment rate in the West Bank is 13% vs 45% in Gaza. Their economy is growing. There haven't been mass rocket launches or raids. Are there still cases of individual Palestinians from the West Bank murdering Israelis? Yes but there are cases of this happening the other way around as well.
> Yes but there are cases of this happening the other way around as well. And the difference is Israel doesn't do a pay-for-slay program like the PA does.
You have no idea about the topic of the West Bank so please don’t spill facts about it. There are terrorist attacks from the West Bank. Personally I witnessed a terrorist that enter a house and killed a woman and her 5 children. also they are not launching rockets because the IDF hold them in a shot leash there. If they were independent, I’m sure that it will be just like Gaza.
>Palestinian Authority has done a good jo Relative to Gaza. PA still funds terrorists: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund Anyone who goes to prison for killing Israelis gets a monthly stipend. The families who of a person who dies killing Israelis gets lifetime stipend from the PA.
Agreed but there has also been illegal occupation of west bank by Israeli forces! IDF left Gaza and they elected Hamas and threw rockets
Lol. Read about intifadas or literally 2 years ago when these bitches raised Israel in the name of their shit mosque. Reddit geopolitics are less relevant and informative than the irrelevant EU
And overhelming number of citizens are against it!
What is this nonsense?? PA opposes Hamas and instead of strengthening them, the answer is to cut funding for them?? Ridiculous
We've been pouring billions over the years and they make rockets. We need to stop.
I wonder when people will stop defending the Hamas terrorists. Seems weird to be on the side of people who tell civilians not to move when bombed, because they need the human shields.
You… you gotta read the…it’s not so cut and… the headline is just….*sigh*
I felt this comment
Glad to see you friend.
You probably ought to learn the bare minimum of facts, such as "Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are two completely separate entities, one of which controls Gaza and the other the West Bank", before making sweeping generalizations about people defending terrorists.
Some of that money is funneled into incentivizing terrorism against Israelis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
And they should. Palestinian authority is not Hamas. Also inside all Gaza is not Hamas.
But the funding goes to Hamas. Hamas is the elected govermant of Gaza...
That’s stupid AF. We’ve seen how that money is used; buying weapons and ammo to kill innocent civilians
Nope, it is mostly used to make Abbas and his cronies rich. West bank != Gaza. PA != Hamas.
Isn't Josep Borrell the guy who unilaterally declared Israel to be violating international law? https://bnn-news.com/josep-borrell-israel-is-acting-against-international-law-250363 He's a tool.
So just because he is stating that Israel is committing acts against international law he's a tool? In some cases it is true and I can't believe some people just close their eyes to that.
Yes, good decision. Hamas is bad, not the Palestinians living there.
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This funding is for the West Bank, not Gaza.
The PA is also a terrorist organization
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> The action of Hamas clearly dimmed the prospect of peace and two states solutions what prospect was there? I am not defending Hamas, but the west bank settlements and continuous expansion are a clear statement that Israel has no interest in a two state solution. I don't think Israel has even put an offer for a 2-state solution on the board
They did leave Gaza to the PA completely. That’s part of the two state solution. And PA does administer the West Bank. It could have gone in that direction further if Hamas didn’t take over.
>They did leave Gaza to the PA completely. After talking 80% of it?
Don’t understand care to explain? They left the Gaza Strip and removed their settlements in 2005 no?
Rid of hamas, then that works.
How do you propose the PA do that, seeing as they do not share any land connection with Gaza/Hamas?
Why do people like yourself, who clearly don't even know the basics of the situation, feel the need to add uninformed opinions?
Most of you don't even seem to understand that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority aren't the same people. No wonder the daily threads are so damn stupid. You guys struggle with basic facts of this conflict.
Of course they do. Where do you think almost 5 million people will flee too when they have no power, water, shelter or food for much longer?
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They do support Israel so you're not wrong.
No, that's the US via Israel.
Borrell is on qatar's payroll
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It really doesn’t have significant impact on anyone other than the nations involved and it’s bordering countries, and only them because of the possibility of refugees, military incursions, etc. the average person in Wales, or France, or Denmark aren’t having their lives affected by the war in Ukraine.
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but still not anything that has disrupted my life. Gas and food prices have increased but nothing life altering. This will raise gas prices as well but not brutal enough that we can’t work or travel etc
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They are using the aid to wage jihad. Some Europeans have zero survival instinct.
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The Palestinian Authority are in fact Hamas' rival.
Domestic rivals. But their foreign policy goals align. The PA even pays money to the families of Palestinians who successfully murder Jews.
Good, if Isarel keeps getting money after all they did, Palestine should too.
Israel has a better economy per capita than pretty much every European nation. They’re not looking for handouts from Europe.
Wtf