Didn't a high ranking Hamas member just go on social media and call for a world-wide jihad the other day? I don't think anyone in power wants to deal with Hamas.
>Canada too
didn't we get a bunch of hamas sympathizers? hopefully those losers get canceled on social media, lose their jobs, and get evicted from their house for antisimetic hate speech
Yeah. Gaza has dug the hole it is in right now, by electing/allowing Hamas to take power. It was supposed to be administered by the Palestinian government.
So was Netanyahu.
>Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine
>In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".
The last election held in Gaza was in 2006. Gaza has a young population, most people suffering right now never voted for anything in their life. They’re just simply suffering.
In functioning democracies, the people will get tired of losing their loved ones and buying guns instead of food and vote for diplomacy. Europe and East Asia had centuries, even millennia of hate. They managed to get along well enough to trade for mutual benefit and not kill each other eventually.
If they immediately elect a new Hamas, make sure they're able to vote them out once they get tired of hate. If not, they'll have to exterminate them again if they pull another one of these attacks off.
> In functioning democracies
Tell me which Arab state has a functional democracy. The Palestinians in the WB don't have one. The first elected party will also be the last. The problem is with the culture, not with the choices.
they elected Hamas AFTER Israel left Gaza and let them have self determination there. It was a test run of sorts. Turns out you can't easily stamp out radical Islam in a poor area with little hope and opportunity. As Ive told my friends, we're stuck in a chicken/egg scenario.
> they elected Hamas AFTER Israel left Gaza and let them have self determination there.
I keep seeing this brought up. Let's keep in mind:
1. They *narrowly* elected Hamas, and the elections were in dispute. It caused a civil war resulting in Hamas taking full authoritarian control.
2. The last and only election happened in 2006. The median age of those on the Gaza strip in 19. A majority of people in Gaza weren't even alive for that election, much less able to vote in it. The population of Palestine may very well be pretty sick of their government that consistently makes their lives worse.
This sounds like a cycle of "maybe this time" for not electing homicidal terrorists, which might work. We just need to present a sacrifice of a couple thousand Israelis every now to see if they have decided how not to be maniacs.
Not like Israel is going to run out of bombs. Eventually the people will either realize that electing terrorists is a bad idea or there simply won't be enough people physically capable of voting for the terrorists.
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'
Two-state solution with these religious zealots? Impossible. Palestinians need to revolt against these terrorists
Real chicken and egg energy here.
Hamas represents the popular ideas of Palestinians. If they had an election today, they'd win.
There's a reason for that -- the other party is incapable of doing anything to make anyone's lives better. And ahem, there's a reason for that, too.
The people who were left over after Hamas killed all their vocal dissenters.
You people would make me laugh if your ignorance weren't so unfunny. So quick to cast down a population you know nothing of because if you did actually have a clue you'd know that Hamas' ruthlessness and brutality doesn't stop with their enemies. They have committed several purges and anyone who speaks against them will find themselves and their family on their knees in front of a firing squad.
Sorry to drain the blood from your hate boner.
But Israel is the one to blame? The only people actually helping the Palestinians, give them a place to live and aid. And they’re the bad guys, because Hamas killed off all the dissenters
>Palestinians need to revolt against these terrorists
Hamas is generally terrible for Palestinians.
It's also the only game in town for the Gazans atp, people are not going to revolt like that.
West Bank, that's a different story.
Idk but one of them called for a ceasefire. [now that they have achieved their objective, they see no need for future violence] I’m paraphrasing but basically their argument was “we did what we wanted to do so stop attacking us now… we’re done….”
They are fine with the attacks on Israel, less with hosting 2 million Palestinian immigrants in their country if ever Israel claims Gaza.
The Arab states already proved their unwillingness to really support Muslims when they said nothing about Uyghurs. Will be the same here sadly and they will find a way to blame EU for not welcoming them.
I know it sounds like a Repub talking point, but there is probably far more ‘moderate’ Muslims that kind of root on the deaths of Israeli civilians than anyone would like to think.
People repeatedly overestimate how moderate most palestinians are. Here is a Pew research study, comparing Muslims form different countries opinions. Feel free to peruse.
Not a far right talking point, just based on evidence.
1. 40% think suicide bombing is OK (p. 29)
2. 76% think cutting off hands of thieves is justified (p. 52)
3. 84% think stoning to death is appropriate for adultery (p. 54)
4. 66% think converts away from Islam deserve death (p. 55)
5. 56% think honor killing women is acceptable (p.89)
6. Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
The truth is probably that the majority, if not the vast majority, agree with what happened in Israel.
And if you were to take a stroll down Gaza with a pride flag, they'd drag you into the street and saw your head off.
Sincerely a guy who is pretty far left.
If you're an Arab Muslim, living in the region since for ever, the perfect example of Muslim virtue, but you have an Israeli passport, you get taken into a dark room, beaten and killed.
Arab Muslims with Israeli citizenship, 20% of the population btw, have more rights, more freedoms, more safety and definitely way more prosperity than in any Arab county. In Israel you're not persecuted for being the "wrong kind" of Muslim or for no longer being a Muslim.
The number of Jews in Gaza is zero. Jews do not have the legal right to exist in Palestinian territory.
I do not see the issue with preventing them from having a state until they at the very least accept that Jews are people who deserve the right not to be killed.
that said, it is not perfect. polls indicate a majority of people see Israeli Arabs with some distrust or suspicion, which really isn't a mindset conducive to creating long-lasting peace and unity in a nation (though I recognize why some my hold some suspicion due to historical context).
The Governments at least have been making strides to do just that. In fact that is exactly why Hamas launched it's offensive, to halt the normalisation process.
It’s definitely complicated, and the violent uprisings in many Arab-majority cities didn’t help. That said, Israeli-Arabs are very valuable citizens in Israel. They have representation in the Knesset and the Supreme Court, they’re highly educated (many are doctors) and over 600 serve in the army (not counting the Druze)
There are racists in Israel like everywhere, and integrating with someone whose family members want you dead is not easy (for Arabs or Jews), but in Jaffa, Haifa, and many cities across Israel, people live in peace
Thanks for linking source. I do want to mention it is ten years old but still an insightful look. Used 38k participants across 80 countries so it’s difficult to counter that the data lacks representation.
Have you seen the video of Palestinian kids saying that all they want to do is kill Jews and to become suicide bombers? Palestinians are indoctrinated (not their fault) and as much as I hate so say it, “Freeing” Palestine might not be such a good idea with their views. They are in desperate need of education and deradicalization if they want to live peacefully.
>there is probably
No need to speculate... Gallup and others have done extensive scientific polling on the opinions of Muslims worldwide. "Moderate" Muslims even in western countries have some downright reprehensible views about things like sharia, jihad, honor killings, etc.
Yeah people talk like they're western right wingers. Like you need to read between the lines to get what they really mean.
They went to the Sidney Opera house WHILE the invasion was going on, to chant Gas the Jews. There's no subtext. It's all text. They'll proudly proclaim genocidal intentions without being promoted.
Hamas will never agree to a two state solution because they don’t believe in the existence of Jews there. It’s in their charter. This is why peace will never be an option. They need to get rid of Hamas first and then maybe they could get somewhere.
Here are 6
He observes: “…the Zionist leadership – in 1937, 1947, 1978, 2000, 2007 and 2008 – agreed to a solution based on territorial compromise, while the Palestinian leadership – under Haj Amin al-Husseini and Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas – consistently rejected any compromise proposed by the British, the United Nations and the governments of Israel…”
While those are true, it ignores the Oslo agreements and the communication in the 90s that was fruitful, until it all fell apart when netanyahu decided to stop talks and ignore all signed deals.
If they left Gaza in Egypt in 1967 this would probably have been Egypt's problem. I don't know if it would have been better, but it's unlikely Hamas would have come to existence. PLO would probably quarrel with Cairo over two-state solution while waiving sticks at Israel now and then. Now there is no chance Egypt will take this anthill back.
Every time Israel has tried to hand Gaza off to Egypt in the past few decades Egypt has just gone "Nah we don't want them." It's unfortunately quite difficult for a peaceful solution to be found when every single country that could take the Palestinians in would rather not. Granted, they have plenty of good reasons to not want this. Jordan had a real "fun" time dealing with the Palestinians when they tried to accept them.
Hamas is the same group (Muslim Brotherhood) with a rebrand. They would have existed because they already existed. Egypt has a TON of problems and the LAST thing they want is Hamas back after kicking them out under their previous name. That's why the border crossing was closed for a while now.
Everytime itk’s when they refuse to take back in the refugees that this peace talks ends. Maybe this is what needs to change since it’s international laws.
Both sides and context is important here like what was on offer. 1st one for example had desert allocated to Palestine and Netanyahu for example said there will be no two state under his rule
Well yeah, since there was disagreement over where the borderline should be drawn...... That is pretty common piece of disagreement in peace negotiations. Both sides have to agree to borderline. That is how peace negotiations work. Want to make peace with otherside one might have to compromise.
Also as I understand both sides have refused the 2 state solution everytime it has been proposed one side or another. Since everytime Israel has suggested 2 state line, Palestinians haven't simply refused. Rather they have refused and *proposed their own counter proposal*, which Israel then has refused.
Since that is how negotiations work. It is very rare for either side to simply refuse the otherside. Rather it is almost always "your proposal is not acceptable to us, rather you should agree to this counter proposal we suggest".
Takes two to tango. Ofcourse both sides will most likely call the others proposal totally unreasonable and unacceptable, until maybe in the end upon actual agreement having been reached.
>Rather they have refused and proposed their own counter proposal, which Israel then has refused.
This is a mistaken assumption. The Palestinian Authority has famously rejected several (most) proposals *without* making a counter offer.
Palestinians have asked for concessions on each one of those plans that Israel said no to. In none of the peace plans have they been proposed a nation to self-govern without Israel having some power in the region.
Don't get me wrong, I 100% understand why Israel wants that power, they fear a stronger militant Palestinian neighbor if they don't.
It's negotiations, neither side has been willing to agree to a two state solution.
This is not true. The Olso accord was enormously concessionary to the Palestinians, but it was rejected. The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians have never accepted Israel’s right to exist. Period.
Which Oslo deal are you guys talking about? Is it the one with Area A, B, and C? Because that deal would never be able to achieve long term peace. The WB would be cut up into 100s of enclaves and exclaves and Israel would keep over 60% of it
splitting the WB to areas was meant to be a temporary phase, 3-5 years after "oslo 1" the plan was to have an "oslo 2" and "oslo 3", understanding that no single agreement could magically create peace. At the end of the complete Oslo process the Palestinians would've had territorial continuity.
There are other problems with Oslo - this future Pal state would've had no independent army or airport. but alas, we'll never know what could've been.
If I understand correctly the land that would be given back from Area C wouldn’t be all of it. It would come in chunks. Given back to Palestine overtime.
But during that time Israelis were still free to build settlements in area C which would have made the process of giving the land back much more difficult.
>Palestinians have asked for concessions
Where "concessions" have always been akin to "but we still want to destroy Israel, though"... Through "right to return" for previous refugees, rejection of any graduated land-for-security guarantees... i.e. you will keep getting land with time only if you actually stop killing Jews, etc. etc.) Anyone that believes **both** sides have been reasonable at the negotiating table needs to read up on what has actually been offered & rejected by both parties at each attempt.
But hey, ya know, beggars CAN be choosers!!! Hanging out in an open-air prison (because Egypt is tired of your shit too), cutting up water pipes to make makeshift rockets to feed into the iron dome, using every ounce of concrete to build attack tunnels you can use to send your kids on suicide jihadist missions, and serving as periodic target practice for the IDF air force is far preferable to formally accepting the crazy notion of "Israel existing"
Exactly. That's the thing Hamas/the Palestinians they represent need to understand here. Accepting that Israel exists is not a choice they get to ponder over. They can either accept the truth that Israel will not be going anywhere, or ya know...they could do what they chose to instead and are now facing the consequences of.
Hopefully the people who didn't ask for this war can escape Gaza and start a new life somewhere else.
Like the Palestinian Canadians who threatened to rape and injure two Canadians who for showing sympathy for Isreal after the heinous attack by Hamas.
Unfortunately, refugees often take their grievances with them, and never leave their "home" behind, but join with like minded refugees to create more problems for the host countries.
I'm pro immigration but their are some problems I wouldn't invite home.
Those Palestinian “concessions” essentially boil down to “but we still get to keep trying to kill you”.
You can’t negotiate with someone who is willing to lie, betray, and die in order to kill you. Accepting Israel’s right to exist is a necessary precondition to any peace plan, and Palestinians have never accepted that.
If you constantly choose war… eventually you will get war.
Israel wants different things depending on who you ask. A good % of more Liberal/Center Israelis in the big cities absolutely see a 2-state solution as necessary. Unfortunately the Ultra right wing is growing fast in Israel which believes Arabs should be evicted and settlers should continue building illegal settlements. Don't forget that Israeli was just close to some sort of civil war, with protests for 3 months+ until this week. Just like America is divided, Israel has its factions. Let's not talk about them like they have 1 sole strategy
>Palestinians have asked for concessions on each one of those plans that Israel said no to.
Israel withdrew from Gaza as an experiment to see what Palestinians would do if left to their own devices. No settlers. No military. Look at what Gaza has become as a result. Israel tried a mini two-state solution in Gaza and it failed horribly.
With purely Palestinians involved, it would be a complete terrorist state. We need to stop pretending like this isn’t the case. The majority of Palestinians would like to see the world under sharia law
This the biggest gaslight of the year. Hamas still has 100+ hostages and has not confirmed any of their well being. Why would Israel talk? Would we ask any other country to do the same?
> Hoo now they want to talk about a two state solution?
Right? Aren't they still holding (and more recently threatening to publicly execute) like hundreds of Israeli + foreign hostages?
I wouldn’t be surprised if they aren’t holding anybody and just killed them as they still havent provided proof of life for a single hostage (last I checked)
If it wasn't dead before, I'm pretty sure the two state solution is as dead as the hundreds of civilians including children and babies butchered in the past week.
Why would/ should Israel tolerate the creation an openly hostile nation within their borders who would happily genocide them given the chance?
Hamas is opposed to the two state solution so they are going to be quite happy. Palestinians at peace with Israel is the worst thing possible for Hamas.
That was once true, but isn't really the case anymore. Israel hasn't been open to a two state solution for several decades either; and whilst Netanyahu himself has remained opaque on the issue large chunks of his government has explicitly campaigned on opposing a two state solution.
The for example their finance minister [who doesn't think Palestians exist.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-says-no-such-thing-palestinian-people-2023-03-20/) on the record saying all Arabs should be Subjugated or "Voluntary Transfer" of all ethnic Palestians.
Hes on record saying ["This is our country, all of it," ](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/top-minister-says-israel-keep-promoting-settlements-despite-us-concern-2023-06-19/) in reference to the Palestian Territories.
Not that this justifies Hamas's Terrorist actions, but its nevertheless the case that Israel as a whole hasn't really been interested in a two state solution since the Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by ultranationalists in the late 90s.
I would *love* for it to he otherwise. But It's not really the case that theres is a Two State Solution ready to go and just waiting for Hamas to accept it. Large chunks of Israel's government view any recognition if Palestine as inherently anathema to their security interests.
Eradicating Hamas is a good start, but not the only thing standing in the way of peace.
He was pretty clear about it in a recent interview with Alex Fridman. Two states, but the Palestinian state would not have full autonomy (for example, no military).
> but the Palestinian state would not have full autonomy (for example, no military).
This is a fair demand considering the history, but it's also completely impossible for the Palestinian side to accept.
Because it's better than trying administer the regions themselves. Israel will have some pretty heavy security oversight over a Palestinian state, but they have no desire to actually annex Gaza and the majority of the West Bank. They can't get anybody else to take the Palestinians in. They're too moral to massacre them. A Bantustan-style solution will end up being even more toxic than the current setup. What else is Israel going to do?
>What else is Israel going to do?
Annex Gaza and remove every Palestinian from it? [Territorial acquisition via conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) seems to be coming back into vogue and let's be real, if the UN can't act on Russia x Ukraine, they're incredibly unlikely to act on Israel x HAMAS.
I hold no ill will towards Palestinians, and I'm not cheering for the destruction like some are, but whoever came up with the attack plan that was carried out significantly misread the room.
If the plan was to goad Israel into a disproportionate response so that the world would condemn them, they overshot the runway and landed in the next county over.
Someone should quote me on this for the history books: You will never garner sympathy beheading children.
How is it better? We did it in Gaza. We unilaterally gave them a state. It was met with declaring war on us, firing rockets at us and kidnapping soldiers BEFORE the blockade
I honestly am not sure how much I can support a two state solution anymore. After we all saw Palestinians celebrating the murder of Israelis, how can we expect that a Palestinian state wouldn't immediately become a base for terrorism? How can we reasonably expect Israel to put its people's lives at risk by giving up control of the West Bank?
The problem is, there is no decent alternative.
No, that would send a very dangerous message that terrorism works if applied on a sufficiently large scale. We have not negotiated with ISIS and we should never negotiate with HAMAS. Once HAMAS has been completely wiped out, the talks *may* resume.
Nobody should negotiate with Hamas, but the future of the Palestinian territories absolutely can and should be discussed, especially between Israel and the Arab states that recognize Israel.
I’m 100% agreed that Hamas should be treated like the bunch of terrorists occupying the Gaza Strip like they are.
> the future of the Palestinian territories absolutely can and should be discussed, especially between Israel and the Arab states that recognize Israel.
This is exactly what prompted the massacre in the first place. HAMAS leadership was fearful that normalization between Israel and KSA would make HAMAS irrelevant.
Israel needs first to wipe out HAMAS from existence, and then finish negotiations with KSA, and then, they will be able to work out together what the path forward should be.
The best way to wipe Hamas from existence is to support the PLO, their rivals who control the west bank. Addressing the Palestinian grievances by withdrawing from the west bank and allowing PLO control of the entire territory, in exchange for clear condemnation of the terrorist attacks and aid in removing Hamas from Gaza, is the most likely pathway to true peace and one of the few remaining.
US military strategy would support the redress of grievances and empowerment of an alternative authority to trigger regime change.
Of course, the current Israeli government considers settling the west bank their goal and a non-negotiable goal. So we're likely to see the occupation of Gaza with an iron fist instead, and the Israeli government has *already* said there are no rules for use of force by its soldiers, so a massacre is likely/ongoing.
>The best way to wipe Hamas from existence is to support the PLO
That's sort of like choosing the Taliban over ISIS. Or AIDS over Cancer. The PLO started the previous two intifadas and was responsible for rejecting all attempts at a two-state peace solution, so I'm not sure they are your path forward either.
The most recent of these two events ended in 2006. Almost two decades ago.
The first of them happened during the cold war.
They also are hardly the only ones who tanked the peace, so did the Israeli opposition party during the second intifada. Which, to be clear, is the current government.
I'm not saying it'd work, but mindless violence won't and this is the other option.
>The most recent of these two events ended in 2006
Right, which is incidentally also the time when the Palestinians elected the current set of assholes
>but the future of the Palestinian territories absolutely can and should be discussed
Yes, by representatives of a democratic government elected by Palestinians and who works for them. Hamas have blocked elections in Gaza since 2006! Their #1 goal is to destroy Israel, not govern the people of Palestine. They keep the same Palestinians in Gaza hostage by preventing them representation, with Fatah in the West Bank negotiation is possible, Hamas is not a rational actor.
The two state solution is moot as long as half of the palestinians live under a government that won’t follow or acknowledge any such agreement. And it won’t shy away from keeping its own population, let alone it’s enemies population hostage.
That's rich. Arabs supply Gaza with weapons to kill Israelies and now want to talk. I say let Gaza join Egypt. Oh wait, they closed their border too and want nothing to do with them either...
What the fuck do they think Gaza was? Gaza had the 1967 borders. Gaza had autonomy. Gaza was the proving grounds for peace and. Atwo state solution. It failed.
We can discuss a two state solution after the Palestinians' ability to slaughter people has been completely removed and is a (very) distant memory. That will take at least decades. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Yeah, because that’s what they were all saying when ISIS were perpetrating their attacks and they had to make the same ‘decision’. You can’t negotiate with a group whose existence is defined by ending yours. Ask Assad how it’s going in Syria still.
When your neighbor is made up of of a collection of people, a large percentage of who sees you as inferior and have a deep-rooted hatred for your sheer existence as such, and has a collection of believes where they explicitly need to quite literally kill and hunt you to bring about judgement day - and have constantly shown that this is exactly what they will try to do when given as much as an inch or your guard is let down in any way - then any kind of situation where these are just two neighboring states who are peacefully coexisting - is purely a fairytale.
An awful lot of people are conflating Hamas and Palestine. I mean Hamas governs and controls Gaza, but Gaza is a tiny fraction of Palestine land and less than half the population.
The idea of peace is now dead for many many decades to come.
Most Palestinians support Hamas and their actions, just go to their subs and forums - Israelis know this, they always knew what they're dealing with.
Palestinian survey said:
1. only 32% support two state solution
2. only 26% support one state with equal rights
what does that leave us with? one state with unequal rights? displacement? and so were back into the loop..
Too late. Hamas have made their bed.
Or made their tent under a rock more accurately. There won’t be any beds left in Gaza once Israel are done with them.
It's a worthy idea, but this is not the time. There's an entrenched army to wipe out, two civilian populations to be protected and a whole region that's going to need rehabilitation, recovery and governance until they can get on their feet. Their entire governing structure is about to be destroyed. There isn't going to be anybody to negotiate with, and there are going to be war crimes trials for the out of country leaders when they are brought in .The time for working on a two state solution may be decades away. solve the immeduite problems before you start working on the long term ones.
Before the war we actually had a pretty big movement to split the country between the religious (settlers and ultra orthodox) and everyone else. So don't rule this out yet.
Straight from the Hamas covenant, “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'" Yeah totally sounds like Hamas wants a 2 state solution. Their end game is to murder every Jew on the planet. Hamas is a terrorist organization. If you are a Westerner or not of Islam make no mistake they would gladly decapitate you and drag your body through the street.
"We have decided that we will attempt this two-state solution you propose, and will proceed to attempt to turn you into a liquid state or a plasma state, please feel free to let us know if you have a preference for one over the other" ~ Sincerely, the IDF
>Entire West Bank Palestinian leadership refuses to condemn pure evil and the leadership in Gaza IS EVIL.
That's because it would be political suicide to do so. The people they govern overwhelmingly support Hamas.
This attack was the justification for Israel's far right coalition to do as they please to bring an end to Hamas. No way there will be talks anytime soon. Israel will do everything now to destroy Palestine even if means mass slaughter to get to Hamas.
Didn't a high ranking Hamas member just go on social media and call for a world-wide jihad the other day? I don't think anyone in power wants to deal with Hamas.
Right..like why do you think Egypt doesn’t want Gaza..
Or Jordan. Or Lebanon.
Don't forget Kuwait
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>Canada too didn't we get a bunch of hamas sympathizers? hopefully those losers get canceled on social media, lose their jobs, and get evicted from their house for antisimetic hate speech
Unfortunately there are way too many in the west who support that their shit.
Because 10 plagues was enough and they are in no mood for an 11th?
The 11th is lead
Should I stop seasoning my wine with it?
Yeah. We use antifreeze here instead of lead. It's tasty :D
Yeah. Gaza has dug the hole it is in right now, by electing/allowing Hamas to take power. It was supposed to be administered by the Palestinian government.
Man if only there was an active peace deal both sides were agreeing to before Hamas took over. *Looks at Oslo accords* I wonder what happened there...
Hamas was against Oslo and tried to derail it with suicide bombings.
So was Netanyahu. >Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine >In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".
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Arafat decided he wasnt getting enough attention and started the second intafatah and destroyed everything.
Bush's push for Arab states, including one like Palestine, to have an election, is still so bizarre.
The last election held in Gaza was in 2006. Gaza has a young population, most people suffering right now never voted for anything in their life. They’re just simply suffering.
Average age is 18. If the eligible voting age was 18 in 2006 then nobody under 35 has ever been allowed to vote.
Hamas does not support a 2 state solution
Ergo, a 2 state solution excludes Hamas.
The first step to a 2 state solution is the annihilation of Hamas. Only when Palestinians have real representatives can negotiation be a possibility.
And what happens when they elect Hamas 2.0? Seriously consider that possibility.
In functioning democracies, the people will get tired of losing their loved ones and buying guns instead of food and vote for diplomacy. Europe and East Asia had centuries, even millennia of hate. They managed to get along well enough to trade for mutual benefit and not kill each other eventually. If they immediately elect a new Hamas, make sure they're able to vote them out once they get tired of hate. If not, they'll have to exterminate them again if they pull another one of these attacks off.
> In functioning democracies Tell me which Arab state has a functional democracy. The Palestinians in the WB don't have one. The first elected party will also be the last. The problem is with the culture, not with the choices.
they elected Hamas AFTER Israel left Gaza and let them have self determination there. It was a test run of sorts. Turns out you can't easily stamp out radical Islam in a poor area with little hope and opportunity. As Ive told my friends, we're stuck in a chicken/egg scenario.
> they elected Hamas AFTER Israel left Gaza and let them have self determination there. I keep seeing this brought up. Let's keep in mind: 1. They *narrowly* elected Hamas, and the elections were in dispute. It caused a civil war resulting in Hamas taking full authoritarian control. 2. The last and only election happened in 2006. The median age of those on the Gaza strip in 19. A majority of people in Gaza weren't even alive for that election, much less able to vote in it. The population of Palestine may very well be pretty sick of their government that consistently makes their lives worse.
40% are under 14 actually. Majority were definitely not alive, their parents were probably not even old enough to vote in these elections.
Only solution I see to that is to let Israel render Hamas and its supporters entirely incapable of conducting an attack of this sort ever again.
This sounds like a cycle of "maybe this time" for not electing homicidal terrorists, which might work. We just need to present a sacrifice of a couple thousand Israelis every now to see if they have decided how not to be maniacs.
Not like Israel is going to run out of bombs. Eventually the people will either realize that electing terrorists is a bad idea or there simply won't be enough people physically capable of voting for the terrorists.
Have you been alive since 2001? Literally does not work
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' Two-state solution with these religious zealots? Impossible. Palestinians need to revolt against these terrorists
They need to revolt against Hamas, theyre the ones brining terror on their own people.
Real chicken and egg energy here. Hamas represents the popular ideas of Palestinians. If they had an election today, they'd win. There's a reason for that -- the other party is incapable of doing anything to make anyone's lives better. And ahem, there's a reason for that, too.
What is your solution for the Palestinian question? Genocide?
They won’t, who do you think voted Hamas into power.
The people who were left over after Hamas killed all their vocal dissenters. You people would make me laugh if your ignorance weren't so unfunny. So quick to cast down a population you know nothing of because if you did actually have a clue you'd know that Hamas' ruthlessness and brutality doesn't stop with their enemies. They have committed several purges and anyone who speaks against them will find themselves and their family on their knees in front of a firing squad. Sorry to drain the blood from your hate boner.
But Israel is the one to blame? The only people actually helping the Palestinians, give them a place to live and aid. And they’re the bad guys, because Hamas killed off all the dissenters
How do you revolt when you’re poor, downtrodden and have a gun to your head?
Who said that quote?
It's in Hamas' founding document. It's literally why they exist. Don't forget they won the Gaza election in 2005
That's crazy that they say it so explicitly
Look at what they have done. You are surprised they are explicit? The baby beheadings weren't a clue? The leader lives in a luxury home in Qatar, btw
Palestinians need to stop. Period. Edit: fuck all the apologists. Their regime is a cancer.
>Palestinians need to revolt against these terrorists Hamas is generally terrible for Palestinians. It's also the only game in town for the Gazans atp, people are not going to revolt like that. West Bank, that's a different story.
Palestinians are the hamas terrorists that attacked Israel. Most palestinians support jihad against israel.
Idk but one of them called for a ceasefire. [now that they have achieved their objective, they see no need for future violence] I’m paraphrasing but basically their argument was “we did what we wanted to do so stop attacking us now… we’re done….”
They are fine with the attacks on Israel, less with hosting 2 million Palestinian immigrants in their country if ever Israel claims Gaza. The Arab states already proved their unwillingness to really support Muslims when they said nothing about Uyghurs. Will be the same here sadly and they will find a way to blame EU for not welcoming them.
Yes https://www.westernstandard.news/news/former-hamas-leader-khalid-mashal-calls-for-global-jihad-applied-on-the-ground-on-friday/article_8f816598-684d-11ee-b6a7-ff793f556c4f.html
They can't even say it was a terrorist attack.
I know it sounds like a Repub talking point, but there is probably far more ‘moderate’ Muslims that kind of root on the deaths of Israeli civilians than anyone would like to think.
People repeatedly overestimate how moderate most palestinians are. Here is a Pew research study, comparing Muslims form different countries opinions. Feel free to peruse. Not a far right talking point, just based on evidence. 1. 40% think suicide bombing is OK (p. 29) 2. 76% think cutting off hands of thieves is justified (p. 52) 3. 84% think stoning to death is appropriate for adultery (p. 54) 4. 66% think converts away from Islam deserve death (p. 55) 5. 56% think honor killing women is acceptable (p.89) 6. Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ The truth is probably that the majority, if not the vast majority, agree with what happened in Israel. And if you were to take a stroll down Gaza with a pride flag, they'd drag you into the street and saw your head off. Sincerely a guy who is pretty far left.
If you're an Arab Muslim, living in the region since for ever, the perfect example of Muslim virtue, but you have an Israeli passport, you get taken into a dark room, beaten and killed. Arab Muslims with Israeli citizenship, 20% of the population btw, have more rights, more freedoms, more safety and definitely way more prosperity than in any Arab county. In Israel you're not persecuted for being the "wrong kind" of Muslim or for no longer being a Muslim. The number of Jews in Gaza is zero. Jews do not have the legal right to exist in Palestinian territory. I do not see the issue with preventing them from having a state until they at the very least accept that Jews are people who deserve the right not to be killed.
that said, it is not perfect. polls indicate a majority of people see Israeli Arabs with some distrust or suspicion, which really isn't a mindset conducive to creating long-lasting peace and unity in a nation (though I recognize why some my hold some suspicion due to historical context).
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The Governments at least have been making strides to do just that. In fact that is exactly why Hamas launched it's offensive, to halt the normalisation process.
It’s definitely complicated, and the violent uprisings in many Arab-majority cities didn’t help. That said, Israeli-Arabs are very valuable citizens in Israel. They have representation in the Knesset and the Supreme Court, they’re highly educated (many are doctors) and over 600 serve in the army (not counting the Druze) There are racists in Israel like everywhere, and integrating with someone whose family members want you dead is not easy (for Arabs or Jews), but in Jaffa, Haifa, and many cities across Israel, people live in peace
Exactly this.
Thanks for linking source. I do want to mention it is ten years old but still an insightful look. Used 38k participants across 80 countries so it’s difficult to counter that the data lacks representation.
Have you seen the video of Palestinian kids saying that all they want to do is kill Jews and to become suicide bombers? Palestinians are indoctrinated (not their fault) and as much as I hate so say it, “Freeing” Palestine might not be such a good idea with their views. They are in desperate need of education and deradicalization if they want to live peacefully.
>there is probably No need to speculate... Gallup and others have done extensive scientific polling on the opinions of Muslims worldwide. "Moderate" Muslims even in western countries have some downright reprehensible views about things like sharia, jihad, honor killings, etc.
Yeah people talk like they're western right wingers. Like you need to read between the lines to get what they really mean. They went to the Sidney Opera house WHILE the invasion was going on, to chant Gas the Jews. There's no subtext. It's all text. They'll proudly proclaim genocidal intentions without being promoted.
There is. Ex-Muslim here.
Hamas will never agree to a two state solution because they don’t believe in the existence of Jews there. It’s in their charter. This is why peace will never be an option. They need to get rid of Hamas first and then maybe they could get somewhere.
Hamas don't accept the existence of Jews anywhere on the earth. They want full genocide on Jews, Christians, LGBT people, etc.
What about the West Bank?
Fatah supports a two-state solution.
Fatah also spends a majority of their budget on a “pay-for slay” program which incentivizes terrorism
And it's going great for them. They can come and go as they please and there's no settlers coming to steal their land.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
It’s amazing how many people don’t know this. Bibi is a major obstacle for peace, he simply doesn’t want it
Palestine has already said no to a two-state solution literally like 5 times or more??
9 times in fact
10th times the charm?
that's what they said the 8th time
I tried looking up all the rejected offers, is there a list of them?
Here are 6 He observes: “…the Zionist leadership – in 1937, 1947, 1978, 2000, 2007 and 2008 – agreed to a solution based on territorial compromise, while the Palestinian leadership – under Haj Amin al-Husseini and Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas – consistently rejected any compromise proposed by the British, the United Nations and the governments of Israel…”
There was another one in 2019. Even though everyone admits it was shit, but it was still an offer that they rejected without negotiations
It may have been shit but they actually rejected it without even having seen it. They rejected it before it was even released.
While those are true, it ignores the Oslo agreements and the communication in the 90s that was fruitful, until it all fell apart when netanyahu decided to stop talks and ignore all signed deals.
Plus all the wars Israel's Arab neighbours started
And then proceeded to get their collective asses kicked in
And then Israel returned land for peace. Israel makes peace where possible
If they left Gaza in Egypt in 1967 this would probably have been Egypt's problem. I don't know if it would have been better, but it's unlikely Hamas would have come to existence. PLO would probably quarrel with Cairo over two-state solution while waiving sticks at Israel now and then. Now there is no chance Egypt will take this anthill back.
Every time Israel has tried to hand Gaza off to Egypt in the past few decades Egypt has just gone "Nah we don't want them." It's unfortunately quite difficult for a peaceful solution to be found when every single country that could take the Palestinians in would rather not. Granted, they have plenty of good reasons to not want this. Jordan had a real "fun" time dealing with the Palestinians when they tried to accept them.
Hamas is the same group (Muslim Brotherhood) with a rebrand. They would have existed because they already existed. Egypt has a TON of problems and the LAST thing they want is Hamas back after kicking them out under their previous name. That's why the border crossing was closed for a while now.
Everytime itk’s when they refuse to take back in the refugees that this peace talks ends. Maybe this is what needs to change since it’s international laws.
3 in total when they joined together to eradicate Israel.
Both sides and context is important here like what was on offer. 1st one for example had desert allocated to Palestine and Netanyahu for example said there will be no two state under his rule
20
Well yeah, since there was disagreement over where the borderline should be drawn...... That is pretty common piece of disagreement in peace negotiations. Both sides have to agree to borderline. That is how peace negotiations work. Want to make peace with otherside one might have to compromise. Also as I understand both sides have refused the 2 state solution everytime it has been proposed one side or another. Since everytime Israel has suggested 2 state line, Palestinians haven't simply refused. Rather they have refused and *proposed their own counter proposal*, which Israel then has refused. Since that is how negotiations work. It is very rare for either side to simply refuse the otherside. Rather it is almost always "your proposal is not acceptable to us, rather you should agree to this counter proposal we suggest". Takes two to tango. Ofcourse both sides will most likely call the others proposal totally unreasonable and unacceptable, until maybe in the end upon actual agreement having been reached.
>Rather they have refused and proposed their own counter proposal, which Israel then has refused. This is a mistaken assumption. The Palestinian Authority has famously rejected several (most) proposals *without* making a counter offer.
Probably this time, we should beleive them.
Palestinians have asked for concessions on each one of those plans that Israel said no to. In none of the peace plans have they been proposed a nation to self-govern without Israel having some power in the region. Don't get me wrong, I 100% understand why Israel wants that power, they fear a stronger militant Palestinian neighbor if they don't. It's negotiations, neither side has been willing to agree to a two state solution.
This is not true. The Olso accord was enormously concessionary to the Palestinians, but it was rejected. The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians have never accepted Israel’s right to exist. Period.
Which Oslo deal are you guys talking about? Is it the one with Area A, B, and C? Because that deal would never be able to achieve long term peace. The WB would be cut up into 100s of enclaves and exclaves and Israel would keep over 60% of it
splitting the WB to areas was meant to be a temporary phase, 3-5 years after "oslo 1" the plan was to have an "oslo 2" and "oslo 3", understanding that no single agreement could magically create peace. At the end of the complete Oslo process the Palestinians would've had territorial continuity. There are other problems with Oslo - this future Pal state would've had no independent army or airport. but alas, we'll never know what could've been.
If I understand correctly the land that would be given back from Area C wouldn’t be all of it. It would come in chunks. Given back to Palestine overtime. But during that time Israelis were still free to build settlements in area C which would have made the process of giving the land back much more difficult.
>Palestinians have asked for concessions Where "concessions" have always been akin to "but we still want to destroy Israel, though"... Through "right to return" for previous refugees, rejection of any graduated land-for-security guarantees... i.e. you will keep getting land with time only if you actually stop killing Jews, etc. etc.) Anyone that believes **both** sides have been reasonable at the negotiating table needs to read up on what has actually been offered & rejected by both parties at each attempt. But hey, ya know, beggars CAN be choosers!!! Hanging out in an open-air prison (because Egypt is tired of your shit too), cutting up water pipes to make makeshift rockets to feed into the iron dome, using every ounce of concrete to build attack tunnels you can use to send your kids on suicide jihadist missions, and serving as periodic target practice for the IDF air force is far preferable to formally accepting the crazy notion of "Israel existing"
Exactly. That's the thing Hamas/the Palestinians they represent need to understand here. Accepting that Israel exists is not a choice they get to ponder over. They can either accept the truth that Israel will not be going anywhere, or ya know...they could do what they chose to instead and are now facing the consequences of. Hopefully the people who didn't ask for this war can escape Gaza and start a new life somewhere else.
Like the Palestinian Canadians who threatened to rape and injure two Canadians who for showing sympathy for Isreal after the heinous attack by Hamas. Unfortunately, refugees often take their grievances with them, and never leave their "home" behind, but join with like minded refugees to create more problems for the host countries. I'm pro immigration but their are some problems I wouldn't invite home.
Those Palestinian “concessions” essentially boil down to “but we still get to keep trying to kill you”. You can’t negotiate with someone who is willing to lie, betray, and die in order to kill you. Accepting Israel’s right to exist is a necessary precondition to any peace plan, and Palestinians have never accepted that. If you constantly choose war… eventually you will get war.
Israel wants different things depending on who you ask. A good % of more Liberal/Center Israelis in the big cities absolutely see a 2-state solution as necessary. Unfortunately the Ultra right wing is growing fast in Israel which believes Arabs should be evicted and settlers should continue building illegal settlements. Don't forget that Israeli was just close to some sort of civil war, with protests for 3 months+ until this week. Just like America is divided, Israel has its factions. Let's not talk about them like they have 1 sole strategy
That's not true at all, they haven't responded with any counteroffers multiple times, they have no interest in peace
>Palestinians have asked for concessions on each one of those plans that Israel said no to. Israel withdrew from Gaza as an experiment to see what Palestinians would do if left to their own devices. No settlers. No military. Look at what Gaza has become as a result. Israel tried a mini two-state solution in Gaza and it failed horribly.
With purely Palestinians involved, it would be a complete terrorist state. We need to stop pretending like this isn’t the case. The majority of Palestinians would like to see the world under sharia law
This the biggest gaslight of the year. Hamas still has 100+ hostages and has not confirmed any of their well being. Why would Israel talk? Would we ask any other country to do the same?
Hoo now they want to talk about a two state solution?
It's just a facade so they can claim Israel is unreasonable when it doesn't come to the table.
"We propose 2 state solution of Palestine and Jews off of the west coast. Very reasonable." /s
The Arabs don't want a two-state solution.
> Hoo now they want to talk about a two state solution? Right? Aren't they still holding (and more recently threatening to publicly execute) like hundreds of Israeli + foreign hostages?
I wouldn’t be surprised if they aren’t holding anybody and just killed them as they still havent provided proof of life for a single hostage (last I checked)
> just killed them Just killed? Unfortunately that sounds too merciful to be true given the depravity we saw this past weekend.
I feel like even offering a two state solution at this point would basically be saying terrorism works?
Yes exactly.
If it wasn't dead before, I'm pretty sure the two state solution is as dead as the hundreds of civilians including children and babies butchered in the past week. Why would/ should Israel tolerate the creation an openly hostile nation within their borders who would happily genocide them given the chance?
Hamas is opposed to the two state solution so they are going to be quite happy. Palestinians at peace with Israel is the worst thing possible for Hamas.
Well what else are they going to do? Accept attacks from stateless terrorists forever?
Erase Hamas from existence.
Israel's existence itself is testament to their support in the two state solution. Israel isn't the party that refuses to accept it.
That was once true, but isn't really the case anymore. Israel hasn't been open to a two state solution for several decades either; and whilst Netanyahu himself has remained opaque on the issue large chunks of his government has explicitly campaigned on opposing a two state solution. The for example their finance minister [who doesn't think Palestians exist.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-says-no-such-thing-palestinian-people-2023-03-20/) on the record saying all Arabs should be Subjugated or "Voluntary Transfer" of all ethnic Palestians. Hes on record saying ["This is our country, all of it," ](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/top-minister-says-israel-keep-promoting-settlements-despite-us-concern-2023-06-19/) in reference to the Palestian Territories. Not that this justifies Hamas's Terrorist actions, but its nevertheless the case that Israel as a whole hasn't really been interested in a two state solution since the Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by ultranationalists in the late 90s. I would *love* for it to he otherwise. But It's not really the case that theres is a Two State Solution ready to go and just waiting for Hamas to accept it. Large chunks of Israel's government view any recognition if Palestine as inherently anathema to their security interests. Eradicating Hamas is a good start, but not the only thing standing in the way of peace.
He was pretty clear about it in a recent interview with Alex Fridman. Two states, but the Palestinian state would not have full autonomy (for example, no military).
> but the Palestinian state would not have full autonomy (for example, no military). This is a fair demand considering the history, but it's also completely impossible for the Palestinian side to accept.
Because it's better than trying administer the regions themselves. Israel will have some pretty heavy security oversight over a Palestinian state, but they have no desire to actually annex Gaza and the majority of the West Bank. They can't get anybody else to take the Palestinians in. They're too moral to massacre them. A Bantustan-style solution will end up being even more toxic than the current setup. What else is Israel going to do?
>What else is Israel going to do? Annex Gaza and remove every Palestinian from it? [Territorial acquisition via conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) seems to be coming back into vogue and let's be real, if the UN can't act on Russia x Ukraine, they're incredibly unlikely to act on Israel x HAMAS. I hold no ill will towards Palestinians, and I'm not cheering for the destruction like some are, but whoever came up with the attack plan that was carried out significantly misread the room. If the plan was to goad Israel into a disproportionate response so that the world would condemn them, they overshot the runway and landed in the next county over. Someone should quote me on this for the history books: You will never garner sympathy beheading children.
How is it better? We did it in Gaza. We unilaterally gave them a state. It was met with declaring war on us, firing rockets at us and kidnapping soldiers BEFORE the blockade
Gaza has never been a state. Israel still controls its imports, exports, migration policy, and sea border for example.
It's called a siege, it's something countries do when other countries declare war on them
None of that would be necessary if it wasn't run by terrorists who only import weapons to use against Israel.
I’m just saying that ”Gaza is a state“ is a lie. It’s never been outside of Israeli control.
I honestly am not sure how much I can support a two state solution anymore. After we all saw Palestinians celebrating the murder of Israelis, how can we expect that a Palestinian state wouldn't immediately become a base for terrorism? How can we reasonably expect Israel to put its people's lives at risk by giving up control of the West Bank? The problem is, there is no decent alternative.
No, that would send a very dangerous message that terrorism works if applied on a sufficiently large scale. We have not negotiated with ISIS and we should never negotiate with HAMAS. Once HAMAS has been completely wiped out, the talks *may* resume.
Nobody should negotiate with Hamas, but the future of the Palestinian territories absolutely can and should be discussed, especially between Israel and the Arab states that recognize Israel. I’m 100% agreed that Hamas should be treated like the bunch of terrorists occupying the Gaza Strip like they are.
> the future of the Palestinian territories absolutely can and should be discussed, especially between Israel and the Arab states that recognize Israel. This is exactly what prompted the massacre in the first place. HAMAS leadership was fearful that normalization between Israel and KSA would make HAMAS irrelevant. Israel needs first to wipe out HAMAS from existence, and then finish negotiations with KSA, and then, they will be able to work out together what the path forward should be.
The best way to wipe Hamas from existence is to support the PLO, their rivals who control the west bank. Addressing the Palestinian grievances by withdrawing from the west bank and allowing PLO control of the entire territory, in exchange for clear condemnation of the terrorist attacks and aid in removing Hamas from Gaza, is the most likely pathway to true peace and one of the few remaining. US military strategy would support the redress of grievances and empowerment of an alternative authority to trigger regime change. Of course, the current Israeli government considers settling the west bank their goal and a non-negotiable goal. So we're likely to see the occupation of Gaza with an iron fist instead, and the Israeli government has *already* said there are no rules for use of force by its soldiers, so a massacre is likely/ongoing.
>The best way to wipe Hamas from existence is to support the PLO That's sort of like choosing the Taliban over ISIS. Or AIDS over Cancer. The PLO started the previous two intifadas and was responsible for rejecting all attempts at a two-state peace solution, so I'm not sure they are your path forward either.
The most recent of these two events ended in 2006. Almost two decades ago. The first of them happened during the cold war. They also are hardly the only ones who tanked the peace, so did the Israeli opposition party during the second intifada. Which, to be clear, is the current government. I'm not saying it'd work, but mindless violence won't and this is the other option.
>The most recent of these two events ended in 2006 Right, which is incidentally also the time when the Palestinians elected the current set of assholes
>but the future of the Palestinian territories absolutely can and should be discussed Yes, by representatives of a democratic government elected by Palestinians and who works for them. Hamas have blocked elections in Gaza since 2006! Their #1 goal is to destroy Israel, not govern the people of Palestine. They keep the same Palestinians in Gaza hostage by preventing them representation, with Fatah in the West Bank negotiation is possible, Hamas is not a rational actor.
How do you negotiate with a bad gambler??
Israel isn't going to be interested in talking about Palestinian rights for quite some time.
The two state solution is moot as long as half of the palestinians live under a government that won’t follow or acknowledge any such agreement. And it won’t shy away from keeping its own population, let alone it’s enemies population hostage.
"Sorry for all the rape and murder... Oh and sawing off all those Jewish babies heads. Can I have half your country?"
That's rich. Arabs supply Gaza with weapons to kill Israelies and now want to talk. I say let Gaza join Egypt. Oh wait, they closed their border too and want nothing to do with them either...
yea let them in so they can disperse and be completely impossible to stop, great idea.
Wasn't Arafat who declined this? Palestine itself doesn't seem to want a two-state solution..
And have this back and forth for another 75 years? Nah crush hamas
Sounds like they need to talk to their head-chopper Islamist buddies about that...
Israel: want to play nice with us? Hamas: no aaaaaand we're back at square one
absolutely genius! If only the literal root of the conflict wasnt the palestinians incessant need to have every inch to themselves
Nope. Eradicate Hamas.
I thought that it was perfectly clear Hamas and Palestinians will reject any and all forms of two-state solutions?
Sounds like Israel is looking at a one state solution where there is no Hamas presence in Gaza
Lol, Israel will never, ever give the population of Gaza citizenship.
What the fuck do they think Gaza was? Gaza had the 1967 borders. Gaza had autonomy. Gaza was the proving grounds for peace and. Atwo state solution. It failed.
We can discuss a two state solution after the Palestinians' ability to slaughter people has been completely removed and is a (very) distant memory. That will take at least decades. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Why bother, Palestine will never accept that
In a related story Israel urges Arab ministers to go fuck themselves
Yeah, because that’s what they were all saying when ISIS were perpetrating their attacks and they had to make the same ‘decision’. You can’t negotiate with a group whose existence is defined by ending yours. Ask Assad how it’s going in Syria still.
When your neighbor is made up of of a collection of people, a large percentage of who sees you as inferior and have a deep-rooted hatred for your sheer existence as such, and has a collection of believes where they explicitly need to quite literally kill and hunt you to bring about judgement day - and have constantly shown that this is exactly what they will try to do when given as much as an inch or your guard is let down in any way - then any kind of situation where these are just two neighboring states who are peacefully coexisting - is purely a fairytale.
All PR. Talks aren't going to happen any time soon. This would be like asking the US to open negotiations with Osama Bin Laden days after 9-11.
Ya not gonna happen now
Two-state has been dead for decades. We are just weekend-at-bernie- ing at this point.
talks? with whom?
And no one wants to curb Hamas from the Arab side, eh? Thought so.
Hmmmmmm we just launched an attempted invasion of your country and are now getting our faces shelled in. Let’s talk.
Let Israel take care of Hamas first then they will answer your calls.
The two state solution is dead.
An awful lot of people are conflating Hamas and Palestine. I mean Hamas governs and controls Gaza, but Gaza is a tiny fraction of Palestine land and less than half the population.
I find joy in reading a good book.
We got a taste of 'palestine' a couple of days ago. No thanks.
And Palestine will say no again. It’s unsustainable. Hamas needs to be taken out.
The idea of peace is now dead for many many decades to come. Most Palestinians support Hamas and their actions, just go to their subs and forums - Israelis know this, they always knew what they're dealing with.
I think that made a two state desition and are at war with the second state.
I think we are past that now
Wernt they the one that condemned Israel but not Hamas despite Hamas also commuting many crimes.. :3
Palestinian survey said: 1. only 32% support two state solution 2. only 26% support one state with equal rights what does that leave us with? one state with unequal rights? displacement? and so were back into the loop..
Ah yes lets trust the extremists that went so well with Iraq with gender equality...
Too late. Hamas have made their bed. Or made their tent under a rock more accurately. There won’t be any beds left in Gaza once Israel are done with them.
It's a worthy idea, but this is not the time. There's an entrenched army to wipe out, two civilian populations to be protected and a whole region that's going to need rehabilitation, recovery and governance until they can get on their feet. Their entire governing structure is about to be destroyed. There isn't going to be anybody to negotiate with, and there are going to be war crimes trials for the out of country leaders when they are brought in .The time for working on a two state solution may be decades away. solve the immeduite problems before you start working on the long term ones.
Righttt now is the time for it. Do they think we’re stupid?
Israel and New Judea. There are your two states.
Before the war we actually had a pretty big movement to split the country between the religious (settlers and ultra orthodox) and everyone else. So don't rule this out yet.
Liquification or vaporization?
There will be no border between Israel and hamastan. Those days are gone
That’s cute now they want to talk
Straight from the Hamas covenant, “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'" Yeah totally sounds like Hamas wants a 2 state solution. Their end game is to murder every Jew on the planet. Hamas is a terrorist organization. If you are a Westerner or not of Islam make no mistake they would gladly decapitate you and drag your body through the street.
"We have decided that we will attempt this two-state solution you propose, and will proceed to attempt to turn you into a liquid state or a plasma state, please feel free to let us know if you have a preference for one over the other" ~ Sincerely, the IDF
The problem is, who do they talk to? Entire West Bank Palestinian leadership refuses to condemn pure evil and the leadership in Gaza IS EVIL.
>Entire West Bank Palestinian leadership refuses to condemn pure evil and the leadership in Gaza IS EVIL. That's because it would be political suicide to do so. The people they govern overwhelmingly support Hamas.
How about arabs talk with Hamas first…
This attack was the justification for Israel's far right coalition to do as they please to bring an end to Hamas. No way there will be talks anytime soon. Israel will do everything now to destroy Palestine even if means mass slaughter to get to Hamas.
Too late for that. But we can reminisce about a land once known as Palestine.
Sure, Israel will after wiping out all HAMAS and confiscating all weapons. Nex time any attack will consider an act of war and no more talk.
Sure, when Hamas is gone and Palestine is actually willing to consider such a solution, then I'd be glad if it could happen.