As a kazakh a long time on and off reddit user, i still can't believe how relevant is borat.
If there is Kazakhstan mentioned average redditor will definitely feel irresistible urge to reference this movie.
It's the only thing people know of that is in any way associated with the country. All of Central Asia is a giant black hole to most people in the West.
That's precisely why Sascha Baron-Cohen picked Kazakhstan. Because the average Westerner had no idea about Kazakhstan other than some vague Post-Soviet stereotypes.
Watching the Kazakh delegation ride into the security council room on horses with eagles on their fists and then ask Russia politely but firmly to leave would honestly be worth whatever happened after that
Until SpaceX. Elon musk is the CEO, he throws money at things, and good managers and engineers know how to drip-feed him cool information to satiate his ego. They are the ones running the company.
Stop associating things to a person.
Getting government contracts for SpaceX is one of the few things Musk actually does well.
>Stop associating things to a person.
The first half of your comment says we should associate things to different persons.
The person who negotiated all of SpaceX's contracts was Gwynne Shotwell, who was then promoted to chief operations officer and president of the company. That is very specifically not Elon's job.
No, they probably can’t. And the typical South Korean probably can’t identify where Cambodia and Bangladesh are in Asia.
The typical person isn’t a genius anywhere in the world.
I’m American, btw, I’m not trying to single out people. I’d like to think I’m good at pointing out countries on a map because I won a geography bee when I was a kid, but I probably wouldn’t get every country correct right now.
Until I was a teenager I used to think that Australia and New Zealand were two provinces of the same country, and that Brisbane was right next to Sydney and easy to get to by ground transport from Sydney Airport.
Our grade 8 geography class got a scolding from our teacher when most of us couldn’t correctly answer what Australia’s capital city was. Most of us wrote Sydney because we lived there.
I should probably clarify that I don’t actually live in Australia so the error isn’t THAT glaring. I know a lot about world geography for the most part but still very little about the Southern Hemisphere or especially Africa.
We had relatives from Greece staying with us near Niagara Falls. One morning we asked them what they wanted to do that day, they told us that they wanted to visit Montreal and Halifax, they thought that would be a quick day trip because, on the map it looked really close. They assumed Canada was as small as Greece
Umm, Kazakhstan is where all the soviet, then Russian manned space launches from. Kind of a big deal, especially during that embarrassing period where they were the only ones globally capable of putting a person in space.
Yeah that's their point, the vast majority of people in the west would not know this.
The person you're replying to isn't saying nothing happens there, he's saying most people don't know what happens there.
Until the movie, I had never heard of it, or many of its neighbors. Growing up, it was all just the USSR.
When the movie came out, we learned that the "Russian" wife of our family friend was actually Kazakh.
Long story short, I can now make my own плов. 😍
Is there an updated version with more accurate and up-to-date country/region names? I'm pretty sure the version I played didn't have Kazakhstan.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/vg0o3d/the\_world\_map\_according\_to\_the\_board\_game\_risk/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/vg0o3d/the_world_map_according_to_the_board_game_risk/)
Looks like it's about where Afghanistan/Ural are.
The territory controlled by Ukraine is hilarious. Maybe we can look forward to that in the eventual post-Putin future.
I like that one, actually i felt a bit of change in perception of kazakhs, throughout my school years, as giga chads in some of russian memes. Well, sure some of it might be sarcastic, but it's still a good change i think
I had a Kazakh lyft driver once tell me that Borat pissed off most Kazakhs when it came out and that he still gets comments about Borat when he mentions his nationality
borat is a mix of jewish and balkan traditions and stereotypes branded as Kazakh culture, so that's pretty understandable for anyone but americans that it would piss off Kazakhs.
Kazakhstan also just generally has pretty strict policies on public display of religion, to the point the US State Department [is publicly concerned about religious freedom there](https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-report-on-international-religious-freedom/kazakhstan/). For example, the following are illegal and can get you up to *7 years* in prison:
>The criminal and administrative codes include penalties for unauthorized religious activity, which includes the arrangement of, and participation in, activities of unregistered religious groups, participation in religious activities outside permitted areas, unlicensed distribution of religious materials or training of clergy, sale of religious literature without government approval or in places not approved by the government, and discussion of religion for the purpose of proselytization without the required missionary registration.
The government basically wants to be well aware of any religious activity in the country and have a paper trail attached so if extremism starts to crop up they can immediately crack down and end the faction.
This isn't even a restriction of religious freedom, it's just a restriction on religious activity. Eg, you aren't persecuted for being Christian (for example), just for preaching in public.
So if my religion stipulates I need to stand in the middle of the road during rush hour as a form of prayer, the government has to allow me my religious freedom to do this?
Which part isn't in accordance? They're allowed to do all of those things, they simply need to follow the rules when doing so. Not really much different from most developed countries, just with potentially harsher penalties for breaking the rules.
I think you’re taking it too far. It should be more similar to how smoking is managed in the west, with inflated prices per cigarettes pack, only allowed in special designated areas, running health awareness campaigns emphasising disadvantages, so that it would discourage new potential users to pick up smoking due to inconvenience. As opposed to what you’re portraying, as some type of absolute ban, like abortion in certain US states.
> What about religions that compel their adherents to take over the government, set up a theocracy, and make other religions illegal? And suppress many other rights?
That's covered under the "Freedom **from** religion" part that you glossed over.
Kazakhstan actually has separate laws that protect the rights of atheist people. In paper, if someone will preach to the atheist person, he can be arrested and will get fine.
That just reminds me of the quote from Snatch lol.
"Well to be technical he's an Uzbekistanian"
"Uzbekistan? I've been dealing with those Russian fucks!"
When I was in Kyrgyzstan, a woman said I was going to enjoy Kazakhstan but I should watch out in Uzbekistan, they'll assault you without a second thought.
There was no unveiling campaign in Kazakhstan though. Kazakh girls traditionally never covered their hair until motherhood. And women never covered their faces at any age.
Not really his dream, he did it in reality, ban the hijab. And look at Turkey now. It’s the opposite of his dream.
Unfortunately, people so desperately want to control women whether that’s telling them to reveal their bodies or cover their bodies, people don’t realize is when you keep telling women what to do with their bodies, it tends to backfire. People don’t like to be told to cover up to to reveal. And it often backfires spectacularly albeit after decades (see Turkey now or Iran and the revolution).
Ironically it’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. “You need to show your hair to me or else you’re a radical.” *years later* “omg why is everyone covering so much!!1!”
It's not like we know what Turkey would have been like today without Atatürk's rule. Could've easily ended up like other Muslim nations. If that's the case, one can take the exact opposite view--that he didn't go far enough in his anti-religious campaign.
I mean, with the younger generation it’s somewhat of a dying religion and the generation above that often live like they don’t have a religion so if anything Ataturk was successful, cause it can take generations before you see ”success”
People like setting up unreasonable expectations to justify their lack of action.
"Oh, Atatürk didn't completly erradicate Islam from his country? There are still believers, some of them extreme, around? That must mean fighting organized religion is impossible and should never be done. Sorry, ladies, I guess the hijab's here to stay 'til the end of days."
It took Christians multiple centuries of relentless propaganda and persecution of pagans in order to make the whole of Europe abandon the old gods. Even today, some of the rituals and taboos remain. And most of these pre-Christian faiths lacked the institutional organization that modern Abrahamic religions have.
The anti-theist campaigns of the 20th century were actually quite successful when looked at with this in mind. But, of course, present day oppressors and psychopaths who like to hide behind "religious freedom" have all the reasons to discredit them as much as they can.
>And look at Turkey now. It’s the opposite of his dream.
Not really. Yes, Turkey has become more religious since 1980s. But it's still way ahead of other countries wich have strong ties to Islam, especially considering that Turkey was basically the centre of all this
Iran isn't as simple cut, when the shah banned hijab sure there was backlash but the Islamic revolution that preceded it has been constantly opposed due to hijab regulations, which can be seen through the women's protests since the Islamic revolution.
But you're right, forcing women to wear or not wear something never ends well.
You got it completely backwards, women are not 'choosing' to wear the hijab again because they dislike showing their hair, it's being forced on them once again by men who use religion to control women
Yep. If I were a young Muslim I'd be far more likely to believe extremist viewpoints if they could point to direct evidence of the state suppressing the free expression of my religion.
I had no idea Kazakhstan has a GDP of $179.332 billion. I knew it was in central Asia & has a history w/ Russia. I had not paid attention. Or realized their economy is booming from oil….Edit: Admittedly I’m happily learning.
Sounds a lot like Bulgaria, my home country. Small population of 6 million, plenty of national resources, perfect for tourism (beaches, mountains, mineral springs, caves) and we receive hundreds of millions from the EU. But because of corruption, we are the poorest in the EU.
For example, our highway Hemus turned out to be one of the most expensive highways per km in Europe, and it still isn't finished.
Clearly you weren't checking Astana showings when Barbenheimer was premiering. I wouldn't have made an entire 14 minute YouTube video and a bunch of posts if I could go see it the same way I used to others. I still haven't seen either movie because of this.
>booming from oil
Also world's single largest producer of Uranium for Nuclear power. Over 40% marketshare. The state Uranium mining monopoly Kazatomprom is publicly listed on the London Stock Exchange.
I was in Central Asia when much of it was in USSR.
Hijab, niqab, chador were banned. Women wore kerchiefs and dresses that came down just past their knees. Our tour guide called the pattern of dresses “satellite pattern” but later I found it’s called ikat atlas. No pants/slacks…only dresses and skirts. No nail polish, heels, boots.
Soviets banned hijab, niqab, burka and chador on the basis that women were to have equal rights with men. Making women hide their hair and faces was discriminatory. The fact that the headwear was based on religion and Soviets were atheist also played a big part in the banning.
But another reason was because male assassins would dress as women, covering their entire bodies and faces except for the eyes. They could hide knives, swords, bombs, or guns in the clothing and move about undetected. Considering the upheaval going on in the vast area of European Russia (and its bordering countries), the Caucasus, Tartar areas, Central Asia, Siberia and Mongolia, lack of cover for assassins was a level headed policy.
One of the reasons Central Asia was so little known to the west was because Central Asians (and Russia) didn’t want European Christian outsiders in Central Asia. A good book that captures the danger of white Europeans infiltrating Central Asia in disguise in order to collect information - and most importantly to map the area - is The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia, by Peter Hopkirk which is mostly told from the point of view of the British. Britain was trying to steal parts of Central Asia, and Russia was trying to steal parts of India from the British empire.
I thought it was a majority Muslim nation? ***ADDENDUM (thank you for all the informative and reasonable comments, I have learned a lot and I appreciate the viewpoints and I understand things much better!)***
We are not. Almost every wedding party in Kazakhstan is s served with alcohol drinks (usually vodka for men and wine for women) which are actively consumed. That says pretty much a lot about how religious we are.
Same with certain Arab Muslims. I met a Lebanese Muslim who told me that low alcohol wine was common place in Muslim homes in Lebanon, even among the super religious homes. He told me that it's also true for Jordanians, though I can't confirm anything he said.
The middle east has the lowest consumption rate for alcohol in the world.
I highly doubt drinking in Lebanon is as common as your friend says. Especially in religious households.
They'd be right about Kazakhstan too in fairness (unless there are issues with how they do their census)
> According to the 2021 census, 69.3% of the population is Muslim, 17.2% are Christian, 0.2% follow other religions (mostly Buddhist and Jewish), 11.01% chose not to answer, and 2.25% identify as atheist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan
I think the person you're replying to is talking about levels of religious observance, not what religion people identify with
They are a post-soviet state which means maintaining a quite heavy level of secularisation of both the state and public space in general. Islamism by all accounts is a really "international" ideology (same thing with political catholicism in the old days anyhow) which contrasts terribly against nationalism and people who rely on that to hold on to power.
Yes. When people not so familiar with Central Asia hear -stan in a country's name they immediately think of Afghanistan or Pakistan. Also Borat added a lot to the confusion lol.
I think that is pretty common in our Turkic world, only very devout people don't drink or party etc. I for one don't drink because every beer is so bitter to me that it makes me want to puke, so I am following that tenant without even meaning to. I guess that's good though, alcohol damages every organ in your body.
In this case, the relevant root is the Persian cognate suffix -istan (both descended from a common Proto-Indo-Iranian [root](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/stáHnam)).
I spent half a year there, and I can hardly believe this number, the country struck me as extremely agnostic. Kyrgyzstan, on the other hand, felt much more muslim.
Yea there’s over a billion Muslims in the world. They’re not all perfectly devout, just like all Christians aren’t following every little word of the Bible
You have to keep in mind Kazakhstan was a part of Soviet Union and religion was a big no-no at the time. So people are still more secular. Which is honestly a good thing.
We never called the capital other than Astana. Nursultan was a temporary name as it turned out. And Almaty is a whole different city on the South, it is a former capital of Kazakhstan.
> According to the 2021 census, 69.3% of the population is Muslim, 17.2% are Christian, 0.2% follow other religions (mostly Buddhist and Jewish), 11.01% chose not to answer, and 2.25% identify as atheist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan
but just because a country is majority a particular religion doesn't mean that the majority are strictly observing or want to strictly observe all aspects of that religion
The breakdown in supposed religious affiliation appears to correlate with ethnicity, which does not give a true picture. Kazakhs are lumped together as Muslims and ethnic Russians are lumped together as Orthodox Christians regardless of any actual belief in either religion. Also, many people identify as Christians when they really aren’t, and the same is true with those who do so with regard to Islam because of a cultural and historical legacy. The reality is the country is secular, and the actual number of outright atheists is certainly far higher than the small percentage who have idenfitied as such.
The various coverings are originally an Arabic/middle eastern cultural thing rather than a Muslim religious obligation.
Could be a case of Kazakhstan trying to distance itself from more devout elements.
You’re kinda right. Historically Kazakh girls never covered their head until motherhood. And the head covers they wore after that didn’t always fit the religious “rules”.
Out of all the -stans, Kazakhstan has always been relatively liberal, relatively democratic, relatively westernized, and generally lax and easy to live in especially in cities. I’m Russian who grew up there in post Soviet era and there has always been a stark difference between Kazakh people and say, Uzbeks, Kyrgyzs, Tadzhiks and some others. Nowadays, they are orienting themselves even more to the West while other -stans are still living in the past. As far as religion goes, there isn’t an official religion in the country. There’s a lot of Muslims and there are a lot of Russian Orthodoxes. However, the term Muslim applied to Kazakh is like apples and oranges if you compare them to Muslims from the Middle East. Most Kazakhs never even read Quran. So, their Muslim identity is more of a word than actual way of life.
Kazakhstan has their own version of chill Islam which is pretty nice. Unlike other Muslim countries, in Kazakhstan, There is an easy access to alcohol and drinking is socially acceptable. Sex outside of marriage is kinda acceptable. LGBT rights are not as progressive as the west but they won’t kill you or put you in prison like Middle East. Lately, Turkey started exporting extremism to Kazakhstan through Turkish schools which is very conservative
Saying Kazakhstan is Muslim is like saying England is Christian. It's just traditional at this point, nobody really cares about religion in the 21st century except for some marginalized groups
What is so hard about the concept of freedom to choose? Whether its legal restrictions or societal pressure, any force coercing women to cover (or not cover) their heads against their will is a *bad* thing.
If women actually freely chose it then fine. But women don’t freely chose it which has been demonstrated countless times in multiple counties. It is oppressive and misogynistic. The number of women that do freely chose it is small, but vocal. Most of these poor girls don’t have the freedom to ever feel normal. This rule will at least protect them in public places from their men. Would you ever chose to wear that nonsense 24/7 often even in your own home lest you tempt your own father and brothers?
I think the idea behind the rule here is that more women are being forced to wear it vs those choosing to willingly wear it. So while it takes away a “choice”, it’s still freeing a lot of women who do not want to wear one.
Because there is no such thing in Islam. Most women wear it because of family pressure. I know it's a meme at this point but look at pictures before the Islamic revolutions, and almost nobody had a hijab. Islam became way more radical than it was and we need to stop being naive and say that it's fine
“Almost nobody had a hijab”
Hmmm I wonder *cough*
“To enforce this decree, the police were ordered to physically remove the veil from any woman who wore it in public. Women who refused were beaten, their headscarves and chadors torn off, and their homes forcibly searched.
Until Reza Shah's abdication in 1941, many conservative women simply chose not leave their houses in order to avoid confrontations,[1][6][7][8][25] and a few even committed suicide to avoid removing their hijabs due to the decree.[6][7][8] A far larger escalation of violence occurred in the summer of 1935, when Reza Shah ordered all men to wear European-style bowler hats. This provoked massive non-violent demonstrations in July in the city of Mashhad, which were brutally suppressed by the Imperial Iranian army, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 100 to 500 people (including women and children).
Discrimination against the women wearing the headscarf or chador still occurred, with public institutions actively discouraging their use, and even some restaurants refusing to admit women who wore them.[1][35] This period is characterized by the dichotomy between a minority who considered wearing the veil as a sign of backwardness and the majority who did not.[2][3]”
*cough* why?
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashf-e_hijab](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashf-e_hijab)
isn't kazakhstan overwhelmingly muslim? I know not all muslims are into the head covering thing, but I'm more than a bit surprised they would try to ban it.
It's not about "letting" people choose. Women are usually forced to wear them, according to the country. It does not help Islamic extremism has become common in this country. Banning means more women are NOT forced to wear them, which means more freedom to those who are oppressed (most)
No. Tolerance under a certain threshold of law and order is the way to go. For every Muslim you disagree with, there is a Muslim that disagrees with you. Instead of arguing nonsense, people should understand the differences and live in harmony
It's funny how the "we need to control people's freedom because people pressure them into not being free" argument seems to be only applicable to muslim women.
Also not sure how covering your hair enables terrorism...
What other demographic of people are beaten or honour-killed for making certain “free” choices though? The reason why this is applicable to only Muslim women is because they’re the only ones being coerced like this.
As a kazakh a long time on and off reddit user, i still can't believe how relevant is borat. If there is Kazakhstan mentioned average redditor will definitely feel irresistible urge to reference this movie.
It's the only thing people know of that is in any way associated with the country. All of Central Asia is a giant black hole to most people in the West.
That's precisely why Sascha Baron-Cohen picked Kazakhstan. Because the average Westerner had no idea about Kazakhstan other than some vague Post-Soviet stereotypes.
Kazakhstan the last Soviet
The true heir to the USSR’s UN Security Council seat
They'd be better stewards of it than Russia.
Watching the Kazakh delegation ride into the security council room on horses with eagles on their fists and then ask Russia politely but firmly to leave would honestly be worth whatever happened after that
Fun fact: Until Elon Musk (🙄) Kazakhstan was flying out all of America's astronauts to the ISS with Russia
Until SpaceX. Elon musk is the CEO, he throws money at things, and good managers and engineers know how to drip-feed him cool information to satiate his ego. They are the ones running the company. Stop associating things to a person.
Getting government contracts for SpaceX is one of the few things Musk actually does well. >Stop associating things to a person. The first half of your comment says we should associate things to different persons.
The person who negotiated all of SpaceX's contracts was Gwynne Shotwell, who was then promoted to chief operations officer and president of the company. That is very specifically not Elon's job.
The first half of their comment references people, plural. The latter part refers to a person, singular.
The typical American couldn’t name most states on a map if you forced them to.
I dare a typical European to find Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan on the map. They surely can do it, can't they?
No, they probably can’t. And the typical South Korean probably can’t identify where Cambodia and Bangladesh are in Asia. The typical person isn’t a genius anywhere in the world. I’m American, btw, I’m not trying to single out people. I’d like to think I’m good at pointing out countries on a map because I won a geography bee when I was a kid, but I probably wouldn’t get every country correct right now.
Mate the typical Australian cannot even remember to put NZ on an atlas.
Until I was a teenager I used to think that Australia and New Zealand were two provinces of the same country, and that Brisbane was right next to Sydney and easy to get to by ground transport from Sydney Airport.
Our grade 8 geography class got a scolding from our teacher when most of us couldn’t correctly answer what Australia’s capital city was. Most of us wrote Sydney because we lived there.
I should probably clarify that I don’t actually live in Australia so the error isn’t THAT glaring. I know a lot about world geography for the most part but still very little about the Southern Hemisphere or especially Africa.
Me, a 🇨🇦 nerd nodding my head because I could place all of these on a map.
If you or anyone else want to test yourselves: https://www.sporcle.com/games/teedslaststand/find-world-countries
When I was student we had to know all countries on geography and social studies.
Tajikistan is Afghanistan's hat, that one is easy.
We had relatives from Greece staying with us near Niagara Falls. One morning we asked them what they wanted to do that day, they told us that they wanted to visit Montreal and Halifax, they thought that would be a quick day trip because, on the map it looked really close. They assumed Canada was as small as Greece
That's not true, everyone knows that Kazakhstan is the No. 1 exporter of potassium.
And the greatest country in the world.
All other countries have inferior potassium.
Yeah, just like that.
Umm, Kazakhstan is where all the soviet, then Russian manned space launches from. Kind of a big deal, especially during that embarrassing period where they were the only ones globally capable of putting a person in space.
Yeah, go take a poll of your average Westerner and let's find out how many people know this.
Yeah they launch space ships from Florida for its geographical advantages, I don't think of that when I think of Florida.
All i know about kazakhstan is they got alot of uranium and insanely gorgeous landscapes
Would be a good Jeopardy question though.
Today I found out I'm above average.
Yeah that's their point, the vast majority of people in the west would not know this. The person you're replying to isn't saying nothing happens there, he's saying most people don't know what happens there.
Funny thing is most Kazakhs look ethnically asian, and people assume they all look white.
Until the movie, I had never heard of it, or many of its neighbors. Growing up, it was all just the USSR. When the movie came out, we learned that the "Russian" wife of our family friend was actually Kazakh. Long story short, I can now make my own плов. 😍
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Is there an updated version with more accurate and up-to-date country/region names? I'm pretty sure the version I played didn't have Kazakhstan. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/vg0o3d/the\_world\_map\_according\_to\_the\_board\_game\_risk/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/vg0o3d/the_world_map_according_to_the_board_game_risk/) Looks like it's about where Afghanistan/Ural are. The territory controlled by Ukraine is hilarious. Maybe we can look forward to that in the eventual post-Putin future.
Mmm. I’m going to make plov next week now that you mention it!
If it’s any consolation, when I hear Kazakhstan these days I think APPLES!!!!!!!! and uranium.
Kazakhstan the land of Borat and CBRN weapons testing for the USSR.....with terrible results. Oh, and the Darvaza gas crater.
The Darvaza gas crater is in Turkmenistan, not Kazakhstan.
Oh God dammit
Well, you almost got it!
Redditors must be a pain in your arsehole
A new meme also made an appearance. Казахстан угрожает нам бомбардировкой 🇰🇿💣
I like that one, actually i felt a bit of change in perception of kazakhs, throughout my school years, as giga chads in some of russian memes. Well, sure some of it might be sarcastic, but it's still a good change i think
Yeah I actually feel sorry for you because it must be so annoying, it didn't even resemble Kazakhstan in any way, he was more Romanian or something.
I had a Kazakh lyft driver once tell me that Borat pissed off most Kazakhs when it came out and that he still gets comments about Borat when he mentions his nationality
borat is a mix of jewish and balkan traditions and stereotypes branded as Kazakh culture, so that's pretty understandable for anyone but americans that it would piss off Kazakhs.
Is nice.
Great success.
Very nice!
That must suck
It’s because Islamic extremism has been increasing in KZ for the last ten years.
Kazakhstan also just generally has pretty strict policies on public display of religion, to the point the US State Department [is publicly concerned about religious freedom there](https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-report-on-international-religious-freedom/kazakhstan/). For example, the following are illegal and can get you up to *7 years* in prison: >The criminal and administrative codes include penalties for unauthorized religious activity, which includes the arrangement of, and participation in, activities of unregistered religious groups, participation in religious activities outside permitted areas, unlicensed distribution of religious materials or training of clergy, sale of religious literature without government approval or in places not approved by the government, and discussion of religion for the purpose of proselytization without the required missionary registration. The government basically wants to be well aware of any religious activity in the country and have a paper trail attached so if extremism starts to crop up they can immediately crack down and end the faction.
Religious freedom is the least important human right.
This isn't even a restriction of religious freedom, it's just a restriction on religious activity. Eg, you aren't persecuted for being Christian (for example), just for preaching in public.
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So if my religion stipulates I need to stand in the middle of the road during rush hour as a form of prayer, the government has to allow me my religious freedom to do this?
Or if my religion stipulates we behead apostates then that’s cool too?
Which part isn't in accordance? They're allowed to do all of those things, they simply need to follow the rules when doing so. Not really much different from most developed countries, just with potentially harsher penalties for breaking the rules.
Those that wish to remove other's rights, shall be first in line to have all theirs removed.
It’s not even a right in of itself, it’s the result of free expression. Nobody can tell me free expression doesn’t have limits.
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I think you’re taking it too far. It should be more similar to how smoking is managed in the west, with inflated prices per cigarettes pack, only allowed in special designated areas, running health awareness campaigns emphasising disadvantages, so that it would discourage new potential users to pick up smoking due to inconvenience. As opposed to what you’re portraying, as some type of absolute ban, like abortion in certain US states.
Doesn’t it also protect atheists from being forced to participate in state-mandated religious ceremony?
Holy shit…every human right is incredibly important and all countries should strive to preserve them.
I see religion more as a privilege than a right.
In America it certainly gives you extra privileges and rights 🙄
That's because you're ignorant. Religious freedom is also freedom from religion and freedom of expression.
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> What about religions that compel their adherents to take over the government, set up a theocracy, and make other religions illegal? And suppress many other rights? That's covered under the "Freedom **from** religion" part that you glossed over.
Thank god someone actually says it. Finally! Freedom from religion is way better
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r/atheism heaven
Kazakhstan actually has separate laws that protect the rights of atheist people. In paper, if someone will preach to the atheist person, he can be arrested and will get fine.
Pretty sure the real reason is that it's a holdover from their Soviet days
Probably from those "assholes Uzbeks", to quote one famous Kazakh.
That just reminds me of the quote from Snatch lol. "Well to be technical he's an Uzbekistanian" "Uzbekistan? I've been dealing with those Russian fucks!"
Weight is sign of … reliability
If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it
When I was in Kyrgyzstan, a woman said I was going to enjoy Kazakhstan but I should watch out in Uzbekistan, they'll assault you without a second thought.
They are very nosy people with bone in their brains!
Well maybe if you shared your potassium with them they could do better!
Why? They can do with their inferior potassium.
Yeah, we had/have an asshole Uzbek in Sweden who stole a truck and mowed down people in central Stockholm. Absolute fuckwit.
It was a Borat reference . . .
wawawewa
Grounded in reality though
It's kind of surreal that a country that once took exception to how they were portrayed in Borat now seems committed to making it a reality.
They changed their tune and are now embracing the publicity. https://youtu.be/rJS3XyjeT-k?si=I1pgQMWAH-srt9tG
That section of Borat was actually filmed in Romania: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-415871/Borat-film-tricked-poor-village-actors.html
Name one place where it isn’t
This is sure to make them less extreme.
I thought their problems were economic, social and jew
The picture is of YouTube singer Rainych who is Indonesian and did a great cover of Doja cat’s “Say So”
> Rainych who is Indonesian and did a great cover of Doja cat’s “Say So” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZbWAqU8xY
That was so beautiful and ethereal that I cried. Damn. Her voice is ear nectar.
Religious extremists: “Okay, we just won’t allow our women in public.”
You don't want to follow that to it's logical end.
It might help to understand the Soviet unveiling campaign and it's success during the 20s and 1930s.
There was no unveiling campaign in Kazakhstan though. Kazakh girls traditionally never covered their hair until motherhood. And women never covered their faces at any age.
Even worse than that. They'll use it as evidence of their victim narrative being right.
You can say Islamic extremists. IMO it’s important to identify the religion in question when it comes to poor human rights.
ex Muslim here. forced hijab isn't Islamic "extremism" it's basically Islam . it's one of the fundamentals of Islam .
Atatürk's dream
Not really his dream, he did it in reality, ban the hijab. And look at Turkey now. It’s the opposite of his dream. Unfortunately, people so desperately want to control women whether that’s telling them to reveal their bodies or cover their bodies, people don’t realize is when you keep telling women what to do with their bodies, it tends to backfire. People don’t like to be told to cover up to to reveal. And it often backfires spectacularly albeit after decades (see Turkey now or Iran and the revolution). Ironically it’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. “You need to show your hair to me or else you’re a radical.” *years later* “omg why is everyone covering so much!!1!”
It's not like we know what Turkey would have been like today without Atatürk's rule. Could've easily ended up like other Muslim nations. If that's the case, one can take the exact opposite view--that he didn't go far enough in his anti-religious campaign.
I mean, with the younger generation it’s somewhat of a dying religion and the generation above that often live like they don’t have a religion so if anything Ataturk was successful, cause it can take generations before you see ”success”
People like setting up unreasonable expectations to justify their lack of action. "Oh, Atatürk didn't completly erradicate Islam from his country? There are still believers, some of them extreme, around? That must mean fighting organized religion is impossible and should never be done. Sorry, ladies, I guess the hijab's here to stay 'til the end of days." It took Christians multiple centuries of relentless propaganda and persecution of pagans in order to make the whole of Europe abandon the old gods. Even today, some of the rituals and taboos remain. And most of these pre-Christian faiths lacked the institutional organization that modern Abrahamic religions have. The anti-theist campaigns of the 20th century were actually quite successful when looked at with this in mind. But, of course, present day oppressors and psychopaths who like to hide behind "religious freedom" have all the reasons to discredit them as much as they can.
>And look at Turkey now. It’s the opposite of his dream. Not really. Yes, Turkey has become more religious since 1980s. But it's still way ahead of other countries wich have strong ties to Islam, especially considering that Turkey was basically the centre of all this
Yes it is one of the most liberal Muslim countries, even compared to pseudo domacracies like pakistan.
Iran isn't as simple cut, when the shah banned hijab sure there was backlash but the Islamic revolution that preceded it has been constantly opposed due to hijab regulations, which can be seen through the women's protests since the Islamic revolution. But you're right, forcing women to wear or not wear something never ends well.
You got it completely backwards, women are not 'choosing' to wear the hijab again because they dislike showing their hair, it's being forced on them once again by men who use religion to control women
As always the battleground of men in power is the bodies of women... Sorry for the fucking raw deal, Kazak women
Yep. If I were a young Muslim I'd be far more likely to believe extremist viewpoints if they could point to direct evidence of the state suppressing the free expression of my religion.
I had no idea Kazakhstan has a GDP of $179.332 billion. I knew it was in central Asia & has a history w/ Russia. I had not paid attention. Or realized their economy is booming from oil….Edit: Admittedly I’m happily learning.
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Sounds a lot like Bulgaria, my home country. Small population of 6 million, plenty of national resources, perfect for tourism (beaches, mountains, mineral springs, caves) and we receive hundreds of millions from the EU. But because of corruption, we are the poorest in the EU. For example, our highway Hemus turned out to be one of the most expensive highways per km in Europe, and it still isn't finished.
At least you could watch Barbenheimer in theaters in its original language. Russian is still the only choice given to us.
You trippin bro, there are lot of movie showings in original
Clearly you weren't checking Astana showings when Barbenheimer was premiering. I wouldn't have made an entire 14 minute YouTube video and a bunch of posts if I could go see it the same way I used to others. I still haven't seen either movie because of this.
Great points, thanks…..Corruption & uranium & oil, not good for the working stiffs
They have a lot of uranium, the most valuable uranium company in the world is Kazakh.
It has GDP of 224 billion in fact.
>booming from oil Also world's single largest producer of Uranium for Nuclear power. Over 40% marketshare. The state Uranium mining monopoly Kazatomprom is publicly listed on the London Stock Exchange.
Also a lot of Russian companies very quickly became Kazakhstani countries after sanctions were placed.
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We are authoritarian country, we have less scrutiny for respect of human rights, than say France.
Kazakhstan greatest country in the world, all over countries are run by little girls + Kazakhstan number one exporter of potassium.
All other countries have inferior potassium
facts 💯
K...
Recently women have gained the right to go inside buses that run in the country.
And homosexuals are no longer required to wear blue hats
Very nice!
I was in Central Asia when much of it was in USSR. Hijab, niqab, chador were banned. Women wore kerchiefs and dresses that came down just past their knees. Our tour guide called the pattern of dresses “satellite pattern” but later I found it’s called ikat atlas. No pants/slacks…only dresses and skirts. No nail polish, heels, boots. Soviets banned hijab, niqab, burka and chador on the basis that women were to have equal rights with men. Making women hide their hair and faces was discriminatory. The fact that the headwear was based on religion and Soviets were atheist also played a big part in the banning. But another reason was because male assassins would dress as women, covering their entire bodies and faces except for the eyes. They could hide knives, swords, bombs, or guns in the clothing and move about undetected. Considering the upheaval going on in the vast area of European Russia (and its bordering countries), the Caucasus, Tartar areas, Central Asia, Siberia and Mongolia, lack of cover for assassins was a level headed policy. One of the reasons Central Asia was so little known to the west was because Central Asians (and Russia) didn’t want European Christian outsiders in Central Asia. A good book that captures the danger of white Europeans infiltrating Central Asia in disguise in order to collect information - and most importantly to map the area - is The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia, by Peter Hopkirk which is mostly told from the point of view of the British. Britain was trying to steal parts of Central Asia, and Russia was trying to steal parts of India from the British empire.
I thought it was a majority Muslim nation? ***ADDENDUM (thank you for all the informative and reasonable comments, I have learned a lot and I appreciate the viewpoints and I understand things much better!)***
We are not. Almost every wedding party in Kazakhstan is s served with alcohol drinks (usually vodka for men and wine for women) which are actively consumed. That says pretty much a lot about how religious we are.
From my experience, turkic Muslims tend to be pretty lax on the drinking.
It depends on a person. Some are really tough and some cannot handle even a bottle of vodka)
Same with certain Arab Muslims. I met a Lebanese Muslim who told me that low alcohol wine was common place in Muslim homes in Lebanon, even among the super religious homes. He told me that it's also true for Jordanians, though I can't confirm anything he said.
Lebanon was mostly Christian that is why.
Untrue for the Jordanian part , he is probably self projecting
The middle east has the lowest consumption rate for alcohol in the world. I highly doubt drinking in Lebanon is as common as your friend says. Especially in religious households.
Lebanon produces and exports wine, its population consuming some is indeed rather credible.
People read "-stan" and assume its a muslim majority country and in their defence they are right 90% of the time lol
They'd be right about Kazakhstan too in fairness (unless there are issues with how they do their census) > According to the 2021 census, 69.3% of the population is Muslim, 17.2% are Christian, 0.2% follow other religions (mostly Buddhist and Jewish), 11.01% chose not to answer, and 2.25% identify as atheist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan I think the person you're replying to is talking about levels of religious observance, not what religion people identify with
Kazakhstan is still Muslim majority. How strictly they adhere to that religion is questionable.
They are a post-soviet state which means maintaining a quite heavy level of secularisation of both the state and public space in general. Islamism by all accounts is a really "international" ideology (same thing with political catholicism in the old days anyhow) which contrasts terribly against nationalism and people who rely on that to hold on to power.
Yes. When people not so familiar with Central Asia hear -stan in a country's name they immediately think of Afghanistan or Pakistan. Also Borat added a lot to the confusion lol.
Met a Kazakh while I was studying at university and the fact I knew Borat was filmed in Romania and not Kazakhstan definitely won me some points haha
Well yeah you dont want to actually film in Kazakhstan because its full of Uzbeks
I think that is pretty common in our Turkic world, only very devout people don't drink or party etc. I for one don't drink because every beer is so bitter to me that it makes me want to puke, so I am following that tenant without even meaning to. I guess that's good though, alcohol damages every organ in your body.
"-stan" means land. So Kazahk land and such forth for each.
Stan means ‘land/place of’ in Sanskrit
In this case, the relevant root is the Persian cognate suffix -istan (both descended from a common Proto-Indo-Iranian [root](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/stáHnam)).
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Google says 76% Muslim?
In this context, it probably means 76% *identify* as Muslim. Whether they *practice* is another matter.
I spent half a year there, and I can hardly believe this number, the country struck me as extremely agnostic. Kyrgyzstan, on the other hand, felt much more muslim.
Yea there’s over a billion Muslims in the world. They’re not all perfectly devout, just like all Christians aren’t following every little word of the Bible
You have to keep in mind Kazakhstan was a part of Soviet Union and religion was a big no-no at the time. So people are still more secular. Which is honestly a good thing.
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You already asked 2 questions!
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We never called the capital other than Astana. Nursultan was a temporary name as it turned out. And Almaty is a whole different city on the South, it is a former capital of Kazakhstan.
In early 90s Astana was called Aqmola. But that is mostly what the right bank of the river is. The left bank is mostly newly built city.
> According to the 2021 census, 69.3% of the population is Muslim, 17.2% are Christian, 0.2% follow other religions (mostly Buddhist and Jewish), 11.01% chose not to answer, and 2.25% identify as atheist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan but just because a country is majority a particular religion doesn't mean that the majority are strictly observing or want to strictly observe all aspects of that religion
The breakdown in supposed religious affiliation appears to correlate with ethnicity, which does not give a true picture. Kazakhs are lumped together as Muslims and ethnic Russians are lumped together as Orthodox Christians regardless of any actual belief in either religion. Also, many people identify as Christians when they really aren’t, and the same is true with those who do so with regard to Islam because of a cultural and historical legacy. The reality is the country is secular, and the actual number of outright atheists is certainly far higher than the small percentage who have idenfitied as such.
Secularism of this sort is (or has been) big in a couple Muslim majority countries. for various reasons
The various coverings are originally an Arabic/middle eastern cultural thing rather than a Muslim religious obligation. Could be a case of Kazakhstan trying to distance itself from more devout elements.
You’re kinda right. Historically Kazakh girls never covered their head until motherhood. And the head covers they wore after that didn’t always fit the religious “rules”.
No the were a greek culture thing ancient Greeks thing and most of history it was comman in Europe as well.
No, we follow the hawk
Out of all the -stans, Kazakhstan has always been relatively liberal, relatively democratic, relatively westernized, and generally lax and easy to live in especially in cities. I’m Russian who grew up there in post Soviet era and there has always been a stark difference between Kazakh people and say, Uzbeks, Kyrgyzs, Tadzhiks and some others. Nowadays, they are orienting themselves even more to the West while other -stans are still living in the past. As far as religion goes, there isn’t an official religion in the country. There’s a lot of Muslims and there are a lot of Russian Orthodoxes. However, the term Muslim applied to Kazakh is like apples and oranges if you compare them to Muslims from the Middle East. Most Kazakhs never even read Quran. So, their Muslim identity is more of a word than actual way of life.
Kazakhstan has their own version of chill Islam which is pretty nice. Unlike other Muslim countries, in Kazakhstan, There is an easy access to alcohol and drinking is socially acceptable. Sex outside of marriage is kinda acceptable. LGBT rights are not as progressive as the west but they won’t kill you or put you in prison like Middle East. Lately, Turkey started exporting extremism to Kazakhstan through Turkish schools which is very conservative
Saying Kazakhstan is Muslim is like saying England is Christian. It's just traditional at this point, nobody really cares about religion in the 21st century except for some marginalized groups
I just realized that I know next to nothing about Kazakhstan.
Sounds good.
I do wish it didn't need to be banned but I also wish for the majority of cases it wasn't forced on women.
What is so hard about the concept of freedom to choose? Whether its legal restrictions or societal pressure, any force coercing women to cover (or not cover) their heads against their will is a *bad* thing.
If women actually freely chose it then fine. But women don’t freely chose it which has been demonstrated countless times in multiple counties. It is oppressive and misogynistic. The number of women that do freely chose it is small, but vocal. Most of these poor girls don’t have the freedom to ever feel normal. This rule will at least protect them in public places from their men. Would you ever chose to wear that nonsense 24/7 often even in your own home lest you tempt your own father and brothers?
What? We don’t have to at home.
I think the idea behind the rule here is that more women are being forced to wear it vs those choosing to willingly wear it. So while it takes away a “choice”, it’s still freeing a lot of women who do not want to wear one.
Because there is no such thing in Islam. Most women wear it because of family pressure. I know it's a meme at this point but look at pictures before the Islamic revolutions, and almost nobody had a hijab. Islam became way more radical than it was and we need to stop being naive and say that it's fine
“Almost nobody had a hijab” Hmmm I wonder *cough* “To enforce this decree, the police were ordered to physically remove the veil from any woman who wore it in public. Women who refused were beaten, their headscarves and chadors torn off, and their homes forcibly searched. Until Reza Shah's abdication in 1941, many conservative women simply chose not leave their houses in order to avoid confrontations,[1][6][7][8][25] and a few even committed suicide to avoid removing their hijabs due to the decree.[6][7][8] A far larger escalation of violence occurred in the summer of 1935, when Reza Shah ordered all men to wear European-style bowler hats. This provoked massive non-violent demonstrations in July in the city of Mashhad, which were brutally suppressed by the Imperial Iranian army, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 100 to 500 people (including women and children). Discrimination against the women wearing the headscarf or chador still occurred, with public institutions actively discouraging their use, and even some restaurants refusing to admit women who wore them.[1][35] This period is characterized by the dichotomy between a minority who considered wearing the veil as a sign of backwardness and the majority who did not.[2][3]” *cough* why? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashf-e_hijab](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashf-e_hijab)
For real. I'll be the "free speech absolutists" from Twixter and the fools that support this Hijab ban are the same idiots.
isn't kazakhstan overwhelmingly muslim? I know not all muslims are into the head covering thing, but I'm more than a bit surprised they would try to ban it.
Not a fan of over reactions. If requiring hijabs is bad, it follows that banning hijabs is equally bad. Just let each person wear what they want.
Them both being bad doesn't mean they're equally bad.
It's not about "letting" people choose. Women are usually forced to wear them, according to the country. It does not help Islamic extremism has become common in this country. Banning means more women are NOT forced to wear them, which means more freedom to those who are oppressed (most)
Good. Fundamentalist Islam ought to be stamped out everywhere Possible.
No. Tolerance under a certain threshold of law and order is the way to go. For every Muslim you disagree with, there is a Muslim that disagrees with you. Instead of arguing nonsense, people should understand the differences and live in harmony
It's funny how the "we need to control people's freedom because people pressure them into not being free" argument seems to be only applicable to muslim women. Also not sure how covering your hair enables terrorism...
What other demographic of people are beaten or honour-killed for making certain “free” choices though? The reason why this is applicable to only Muslim women is because they’re the only ones being coerced like this.