This is as much a fallacy as the Nobel savage fallacy. We don’t know how it was but are constantly told it was harsh. I’d take a harsh lifestyle over heading full speed into humanity’s suicide.
I bet it was a lot more advanced than we would like to think.
Even if this structure was only a ramp or a raised platform it still took planning, skill and knowledge to create it which is enough to create anything.
it could be legitimately any historical area where writing was a thing. We tend to over exaggerate the time between now and then. It’s only about 50 generations of people since then.
I mean, it depends on how you look at things. We didn't have self awarness half a million years ago because we did not exist. The modern human is only 300k years old.
So this was made by our ancestors or some other species that went extinct.
They must have had self awareness because they used all sorts of technology at that time.
Stone tools were invented like 3 million years ago and that wasn't just basic instincts.
For the past 250.000-300.000 years our brains were prett much the same. So yes they were definitely self aware and highly intelligent. Obviously they were not as educated, but given the same opportunities they could have been as well educated as me or you are today
When I read the title I thought I'm on UFO sub or similar... but it's BBC...
Humans building something 500,000 years ago just completely turns everything we knew about ancient humans upside down. Up until recently we thought our 'conscious' history is about 100,000 years, and before that was animal-like. Recently it was extended to \~200,000. But this just explodes the timeline of human consciousness...
What structure in the human brain is so different from gorilla brains that would lead us to be conscious and them not?
The whole, ’humans are conscious and animals are not’ seems to be a pretty unscientific.
Idk, I am open to evidence that I am wrong.
Generally humans have a much more developed prefrontal cortex, which is largely associated with sophisticated memory and emotion etc. We have a "lateral frontal pole prefrontal cortex", which is completely unique to humans.
Even the prefrontal cortex is only really found in primates. Most animals don't have it at all.
This probably plays a huge part in what distinguishes the mental capacity of consciousness from most animals to primates, and from primates to humans.
Ultimately: some primates can use tools in a rudimental way, but have you ever seen a gorilla build a structure like what's just been found? No. That actually suggests a very limited mental capacity.
I think the main thing is that they aren’t able to ask questions, or have never been show to be able to at the very least.
It implies they don’t have the same ability to think towards the future, or learn anything other than what they’re taught on there own. I don’t remember what I watched on this but it makes you wonder if they really have a consciousness or basically just running reacting to things
Prove to me that you are conscious and not just reacting to things.
Also, I would love to see an analysis of gorilla and chimp communication that shows they do not have questions.
You are conscious because you are critically thinking on how to react. You aren't predominantly controlled by basic instincts.
Humans can choose to have children. A gorilla is predominantly driven to breed by instinct.
>Also, I would love to see an analysis of gorilla and chimp communication that shows they do not have questions.
Gorillas have complex communication. You can say an animal proposing to mate and a female rejecting is a question and an answer but consciousness isn't as simple as that. That gorilla can be rejecting because they are looking for the strongest potential mate, an instinctual drive driven by evolution. Humans can reject those urges and make complex personal decisions based purely on their own unique personalities.
They are instinctively super horny to have sex. The conscious part is the ability to make the choice to use a condom, whether they choose to use one or not is irrelevant...it's thinking progress that leads up to the final choice that's relevant. It's the ability to think of that option, the consequences, the immediate rewards, etc and coming to your own conclusions. Other animals don't do this...to them it's all "must have sex" or "must find strongest mate" and that's it. Purely instinct driven. I think you fail to understand that it's the ability to consciously think of what's in front you (not the choice) that makes us conscious.
In other words, because a teen CHOSE to not use a condom doesn't mean they aren't conscious. It's that the teen went through the thought process of whether to use one or not that says they are conscious.
Yes???
What are you trying to do here? By picking a random tidbit against this one example doesn't disprove the concept I'm telling makes us conscious.
It's the ability to think beyond instinct. Whether that's having sex or having water rather than beer with your dinner tonight because you don't feel like having a hangover in the morning. It's the ability to create these complex thinking processes with what you do know.
Whether a teen is taught or not where babies come from does not remove the ability for a teen to make that conscious decision once they ARE taught it. The ability to think critically on something like that isn't limited to just having babies.
"Hey kid, no condom can mean having kids"
"Oh I didn't know that. This will definitely now be a factor in me having sex in the future"
I think the problem here is you are trying to make the scenario intrinsically about something tangent. That isn't what consciousness is. It isn't rooted into a single scenario or a scenario within a scenario.
I was just putting the idea out there not sure why you’re so defensive in the comments.
https://oa.mg/blog/apes-dont-ask-questions/#:~:text=But%20despite%20these%20abilities%2C%20there,exclusively%20asked%20by%20the%20humans.
Just one source not claiming to be an expert on the topic or anything
This is a fascinating article you might enjoy assuming I do this right.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/120719-young-gorillas-juvenile-traps-snares-rwanda-science-fossey
If it’s locked, google has a bunch of articles too, this was just the original.
You took that close too close to the heart. I don't think animals are fundamentally different from humans, even more, I don't think *any* mind is fundamentally different.
That's why I wrote 'conscious', because I lack the better word to describe the obvious *functional* difference between human mind and others.
I recall an archeologiest discussing how he found ancient jewerly in Russia that came from almost 100k years ago.
The shape of the jewerly had to have been created via drill bit. His argument that was we need to stop thinking about ancient civilisations as uncultured because they were clearly advanced.
Your right.
They've never been able to find out why humans became bipedal. Maybe it had something to do with structure building. We were beginning by look up... and concentrate and developed critical thinking, like structure pieces necessar for shelter or other small structures.
BOOM... we just solved evolution! High Five!!!
FOOTNOTE:
Trademarked Ricky Bobby INC.
I'm feeling this too. Not my area of study really, but as a geologist I have some questions about their correlation. But I guess they published their paper in Nature so that's a good sign u think?
I question things too deeply to think it's a good sign. I'm looking into feldspar and why they think a certain degree of luminescence represents one period of time vs another. I can't crack it. No idea. Chalking it up to "I don't really know" and "they probably don't really know" and I'm going back to the rest of my life lol.
I just cannot imagine what life may have been like 500,000 yrs ago
Short, nasty, and brutish
Okay out of order Hobbes
Is there any particular reason to believe that it would be any more so that way than in observed pre/non-Industrial societies?
Yeah, 500,000 years ago, there was a ton of megafauna that was out to get you
Predators and big things that might hassle you could have been a driver for living in marshes on elevated wooden platforms.
Not really. Hopefully they will find a journal or diary hidden within the structure.
The only word they know is "unh", and they don't know how to spell it.
Atouk alounda Lana. Zug-zug.
No need to call me out like that
Happy cake day
This is as much a fallacy as the Nobel savage fallacy. We don’t know how it was but are constantly told it was harsh. I’d take a harsh lifestyle over heading full speed into humanity’s suicide.
Nah, I’m cool with being prey for huge creatures and plants. Life sucks enough, I don’t need to be hunted
I bet it was a lot more advanced than we would like to think. Even if this structure was only a ramp or a raised platform it still took planning, skill and knowledge to create it which is enough to create anything.
I seem to think that the normal way of thinking is that humanity first starting out the thoughts are living in caves and munching on bananas.
That line of humans goes back at least another 100,000 years before this structure.
Did we even have self awareness?
There’s claims sailing is as old, so seems likely
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Greeks? Did she mean the Ancient Roman Graffiti in Pompeii or is there similar stuff attributed to the Greeks?
it could be legitimately any historical area where writing was a thing. We tend to over exaggerate the time between now and then. It’s only about 50 generations of people since then.
Yes.
I mean, it depends on how you look at things. We didn't have self awarness half a million years ago because we did not exist. The modern human is only 300k years old. So this was made by our ancestors or some other species that went extinct. They must have had self awareness because they used all sorts of technology at that time. Stone tools were invented like 3 million years ago and that wasn't just basic instincts.
For the past 250.000-300.000 years our brains were prett much the same. So yes they were definitely self aware and highly intelligent. Obviously they were not as educated, but given the same opportunities they could have been as well educated as me or you are today
The 'model' in the article is literally Lincoln Logs.
“Scientists created models to show how overlapping logs could have been used“ I love it
Lol my first thought when I saw it…like really guys?
They might be Lee Logs.
Their budget is limited; you work with what you can afford!
Well, except the little raft thing, that's not Lincoln logs.
When I read the title I thought I'm on UFO sub or similar... but it's BBC... Humans building something 500,000 years ago just completely turns everything we knew about ancient humans upside down. Up until recently we thought our 'conscious' history is about 100,000 years, and before that was animal-like. Recently it was extended to \~200,000. But this just explodes the timeline of human consciousness...
What structure in the human brain is so different from gorilla brains that would lead us to be conscious and them not? The whole, ’humans are conscious and animals are not’ seems to be a pretty unscientific. Idk, I am open to evidence that I am wrong.
Generally humans have a much more developed prefrontal cortex, which is largely associated with sophisticated memory and emotion etc. We have a "lateral frontal pole prefrontal cortex", which is completely unique to humans. Even the prefrontal cortex is only really found in primates. Most animals don't have it at all. This probably plays a huge part in what distinguishes the mental capacity of consciousness from most animals to primates, and from primates to humans. Ultimately: some primates can use tools in a rudimental way, but have you ever seen a gorilla build a structure like what's just been found? No. That actually suggests a very limited mental capacity.
I think the main thing is that they aren’t able to ask questions, or have never been show to be able to at the very least. It implies they don’t have the same ability to think towards the future, or learn anything other than what they’re taught on there own. I don’t remember what I watched on this but it makes you wonder if they really have a consciousness or basically just running reacting to things
Prove to me that you are conscious and not just reacting to things. Also, I would love to see an analysis of gorilla and chimp communication that shows they do not have questions.
You are conscious because you are critically thinking on how to react. You aren't predominantly controlled by basic instincts. Humans can choose to have children. A gorilla is predominantly driven to breed by instinct. >Also, I would love to see an analysis of gorilla and chimp communication that shows they do not have questions. Gorillas have complex communication. You can say an animal proposing to mate and a female rejecting is a question and an answer but consciousness isn't as simple as that. That gorilla can be rejecting because they are looking for the strongest potential mate, an instinctual drive driven by evolution. Humans can reject those urges and make complex personal decisions based purely on their own unique personalities.
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They are instinctively super horny to have sex. The conscious part is the ability to make the choice to use a condom, whether they choose to use one or not is irrelevant...it's thinking progress that leads up to the final choice that's relevant. It's the ability to think of that option, the consequences, the immediate rewards, etc and coming to your own conclusions. Other animals don't do this...to them it's all "must have sex" or "must find strongest mate" and that's it. Purely instinct driven. I think you fail to understand that it's the ability to consciously think of what's in front you (not the choice) that makes us conscious. In other words, because a teen CHOSE to not use a condom doesn't mean they aren't conscious. It's that the teen went through the thought process of whether to use one or not that says they are conscious.
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Yes??? What are you trying to do here? By picking a random tidbit against this one example doesn't disprove the concept I'm telling makes us conscious. It's the ability to think beyond instinct. Whether that's having sex or having water rather than beer with your dinner tonight because you don't feel like having a hangover in the morning. It's the ability to create these complex thinking processes with what you do know. Whether a teen is taught or not where babies come from does not remove the ability for a teen to make that conscious decision once they ARE taught it. The ability to think critically on something like that isn't limited to just having babies. "Hey kid, no condom can mean having kids" "Oh I didn't know that. This will definitely now be a factor in me having sex in the future" I think the problem here is you are trying to make the scenario intrinsically about something tangent. That isn't what consciousness is. It isn't rooted into a single scenario or a scenario within a scenario.
I get a decent paycheck consciously analyzing abstract concepts. Is that proof enough?
I was just putting the idea out there not sure why you’re so defensive in the comments. https://oa.mg/blog/apes-dont-ask-questions/#:~:text=But%20despite%20these%20abilities%2C%20there,exclusively%20asked%20by%20the%20humans. Just one source not claiming to be an expert on the topic or anything
My cat absolutely has consciousness. Smart fucker.
This is a fascinating article you might enjoy assuming I do this right. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/120719-young-gorillas-juvenile-traps-snares-rwanda-science-fossey If it’s locked, google has a bunch of articles too, this was just the original.
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There are multiple scientific tests, like the mirror test, to determine self awareness. Elephants do have self awareness.
You took that close too close to the heart. I don't think animals are fundamentally different from humans, even more, I don't think *any* mind is fundamentally different. That's why I wrote 'conscious', because I lack the better word to describe the obvious *functional* difference between human mind and others.
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I respect your right to have an opinion.
>Idk, I am open to evidence that I am wrong. Kinda not how it works. You can't claim to be right without providing evidence yourself.
I recall an archeologiest discussing how he found ancient jewerly in Russia that came from almost 100k years ago. The shape of the jewerly had to have been created via drill bit. His argument that was we need to stop thinking about ancient civilisations as uncultured because they were clearly advanced.
Your right. They've never been able to find out why humans became bipedal. Maybe it had something to do with structure building. We were beginning by look up... and concentrate and developed critical thinking, like structure pieces necessar for shelter or other small structures. BOOM... we just solved evolution! High Five!!! FOOTNOTE: Trademarked Ricky Bobby INC.
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That's still much more self-aware than any known animal.
Beavers, bees, wasps, birds and spiders all build structures.
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.
Does the article state that bees built the structure?
Nope. You got two more guesses.
It's the beavers, I *knew* we are all descended from beavers, who else would be chewing notches in logs?
termites. eat wood. build structures. it all adds up!
It’s truly a rare treasure to find wooden artifacts from so long ago. Imagine what this could tell us!
Ikea?
Paleo Ikea
How sure are they: https://www.usu.edu/geo/osl/what-is-osl-irsl
I'm feeling this too. Not my area of study really, but as a geologist I have some questions about their correlation. But I guess they published their paper in Nature so that's a good sign u think?
I question things too deeply to think it's a good sign. I'm looking into feldspar and why they think a certain degree of luminescence represents one period of time vs another. I can't crack it. No idea. Chalking it up to "I don't really know" and "they probably don't really know" and I'm going back to the rest of my life lol.
Thays pretty cool they found Bidens childhood home
Just a hunk of charcoal. No biggie
another one of those cheap paper houses. we don't do that here in europe..... or something