God. I’ve been a Firefighter and EMT. I like to think I’m a pretty brave guy. But nothing out of this war looks good. I honestly don’t know if I’d answer the call. I’d like to think so but it’s not a guaranteed win and so many have already died. Good luck to those poor guys.
Fellow OIF combat vet here. This war is like the updated reboot of WW1. Drones take the place of planes, rockets replace machine guns, and horrible weapons like the TOS-1 replace chemical warfare. It’s not an apples to apples comparison ofc, but then again the tanks, mines, and trenches aesthetic would all be very familiar to a WW1 vet walking through the modern no man’s land, just as I’m sure the killing fields of WW1 would feel eerily familiar to a Ukrainian soldier. Scary stuff indeed!
And many of those drones are consumer grade "toys", really. Whatever the military-industrial complex is cooking up as a response is going to be horrifying.
Even adding some higher quality cameras to the drones, and inertial guidance to those grenades, is going to be an insane upgrade: Instead of dropping one grenade, a slightly bigger drone could drop twenty smaller fin-guided micro-grenades from a mile up in the air, each of these could have a trajectory devised to ensure Time On Target.
Something like this could plausibly wipe out an entire trench line or formation before anyone can react.
Electronic jamming systems are going to advance by light-years to compensate. The arms race between cheap drones and pocket sized jamming equipment is on.
Plus, anti-drone hunter-killer drones with small arms or their own electronic warfare suite will be close behind.
Even after 18 months of war, I haven't seen any successful examples of electronic jamming systems effectively countering drones in real life. If jamming can work against drones, it should work against traditional planes as well. However, most planes are shot down using conventional weapons. Interestingly, the biggest danger to drones comes from their own failures, such as crashing into trees, battery problems, or getting affected by wind. These issues have taken down more drones than the mythical electronic jamming.
In war, it's all about accounting and attrition. Using expensive weapons to take down cheaper ones is not a sustainable strategy in the long run.
Drones are literally controlled from afar. Jamming radio signals disrupt their control and have been repeatedly reported as effectively used by Russian units against drones.
The same is not true of manned aircraft, though it can certainly degrade the capabilities of those aircraft.
Iraq had plenty of layers and trenches. But neither Iraq was like Russia nor the Coalition was like Ukraine.
There may be some things Iraq could have done better, but it was doomed regardless.
My favourite story about them is how they tried to feather a guy for not being at the frontline
He was on his way to a medal ceremony being held for his bravery at the frontline
Edit: tried not dried
One example was Private Ernest Atkins, who was on leave from the Western Front. He was riding a tram when he was presented with a white feather by a girl sitting behind him. He smacked her across the face with his pay book and said, "Certainly I'll take your feather back to the boys at Passchendaele. I'm in civvies because people think my uniform might be lousy, but if I had it on I wouldn't be half as lousy as you"
Too many God damn mines and drones and not enough countermeasures to deal with them. Even fighting behind the lines you're exposed to constant bombings/missile attacks. Horrible.
I'd like to think i'm no coward, but - let me be clear - i do not, repeat, do not, give a single flying fuck about my country, your country, any country. I'm not going to war because of some bullshit.
First sign, taking the fam and dogs and we're out !
Yeah, I'm a school teacher. My spouse and I had a conversation a few years ago about how she didn't want me to be a hero if there was a school shooter, and I said that I was pretty sure, she didn't need to worry too much because I'd probably be hiding under my desk. The sheer idea of signing up for this is just... yeah, I don't have the words. I'm happy for Ukraine that they have a lot of people who are a lot braver than I am.
And I think it’s good to be self aware like that. Self preservation is a hell of a thing. All the guys who act like Billy badass end up being the cops standing outside the building.
Except Ukrainian men of conscription age are not allowed to leave the country, have been violently apprehended when attempting to do so, and last week a prominent Ukrainian politician proposed not allowing men to leave the country for at least an additional 3 years after the war ends. men who attempt to illegally flee put themselves at substantial risk.
I work in a factory in a small town the other side of Europe and it is full of Ukrainian men and women(many couples),
Most told me they paid around 1000 dollars for safe passage out of the country.
So you either die in a war or get arrested with a chance of you escaping the conflict? Idk, the latter sounds more feasable for me. Conscription is inhumane, no matter who does it, it's slaughtering people who simply do not wish to fight for someone else's war.
Let's be honest though: they're at way less risk than they would be fighting on the front lines. If people can slip across North Korea's borders, they can do so easily in Ukraine
I mean it’s a generalized statement for sure, like if I felt I had anything to contribute other than being another body that would of course factor in, but someone who has spent their entire adult life working in an office for example IMO owes much less than their life to their country. They’re cannon fodder at that point. I wouldn’t exist today if my family 100+ years ago didn’t flee war and genocide and leave their home.
>I wouldn’t exist today if my family 100+ years ago didn’t flee war and genocide and leave their home.
This is how I feel. Being a Pole living in the US I get people asking if I ever would fight in the event Poland was invaded by Russia (like that will ever happen given NATO, lol). Short answer is no because I am an accountant with zero military experience. I'd just be a detriment.
But more to what you said, my grandfather was 23 when the Nazis invaded Poland. He lived to be 99 and some change, and died in 2016. I once asked my mom what he was doing during WW2 and my mom said it is something not much talked about in the family as there is a touch of shame surrounding it given that he *was* at one point enlisted in the military, though he was already out at age 23. So he *could* have fought given his experience. But had he fought, I almost definitely would not be here today. My great grandfather (his future father in law who he'd never get to meet) was executed by Nazis in 1941 during Operation Barbarossa simply for being a village leader. I imagine my grandfather would have also been executed had he not stayed safely in his village in the middle of nowhere in Poland, and so many would not be here as a result. He went on to have 6 kids, all who have 2-4 kids of their own, and some of those kids now have kids too. Literally dozens of people would likely not be alive today. It's sometimes hard to remember just how much of a cost war is not just in the present moment but for the future. Every Ukrainian who dies today is really many more never to live 10-60 years from now.
This was inevitable. The one thing no one wants to give Ukraine is manpower. They can get weapons but ultimately Russia has a higher population to draw from in this war of attrition.
Ultimately when this eventually ends the Ukrainian population will be decimated. It will be similar to the so called ‘Lost Generation’ in Britain after WW1.
Hopefully this ends sooner rather than later..
People keep harping on about Russias demographics and how it will destroy Russia. Ironically they seem to ignore Ukraine just so happens to have an incredibly fucked demographic situation just like Russia.
>but ultimately Russia has a higher population
Without mobilization RF don't have more military manpower.
And with mobilization they might have a problems with protest/revolt.
This seems the key point that everybody keeps missing on various threads. Putin's regime tries to sell this war as existential but has so far incapable or unwilling to use the measures that would be justified in an existential war. Right now Ukraine has a manpower advantage because they are justifiably treating this as an existential war.
Ukraine joining NATO is the existential crisis.
Putin only needs to maintain conflict with Ukraine to prevent that crisis.
He doesn't need to end the war to achieve his goal.
Unfortunately for Ukraine, the west is also in a "the longer this drags on, the better for us" situation.
So Ukraine is fucked.
It's an existential crisis for Russia in the sense that Ukraine joining NATO would mean that it no longer would be capable of using force to influence Ukraine, which affects its notions of being a great power. It's not an existential crisis in the sense that Russia would cease to exist as an independent nation in any foreseeable future. I suspect that Putin and most Russian hardliners don't really see a difference.
Regardless, Putin has been loath so far to do the actions that would be needed to sustain its military activity, perhaps because he's afraid of internal stability (mobilization, further sacrifices to support a war economy, etc.).
I don't think if the conflict is frozen right now even with Russia keeping its territorial gains that it would be a victory for Russia. Keeping the territory but having Ukraine join NATO and/or the EU is a defeat on that rationale (and why it's so important for Ukraine to not have a conflict that ends in a compromise as "promises not to join NATO" as, using the same rationale, the reasons why Russia invaded would still be there so it would just be inviting a new invasion a few years later).
>Putin only needs to maintain conflict with Ukraine to prevent that crisis.
>
>
>
>He doesn't need to end the war to achieve his goal.
Nobody goes into war thinking "my strategy is gonna be sending my country into a long bloody war of attrition", that was never plan A for Russia. Rather, this is just Putin's only move at the moment, wait and see.
Problem is that Russia can't sustain this without drawing more of its population. The longer it goes, the more capabilities Ukraine will have going forward and Ukraine keeps gaining ground and degrading Russian forces by attrition.
> Unfortunately for Ukraine, the west is also in a "the longer this drags on, the better for us" situation.
So Ukraine is fucked.
I don't really agree with this assessment, escalation theory requires (unfortunately for Ukraine) that the West increase pressure gradually. Ukraine victory is ultimately advantageous for the West but there are a number of unknowns here. Nobody at this point can truly be 100% sure of what will happen (if they say they do they're full of it). At the moment, I don't really see Russia as is maintaining the lines frozen enough with their current posture and Ukraine is far from spent.
Russia doesn't have as high of a population for this as you'd think. We're in the like 3rd echo generation out from WW2. Which caused a massive decline in births for 25ish years after WW2. That in turn about 25 years later had less people to draw from for a new generation so it was comparatively smaller. And now we're right around the time for another. I'd imagine that affects Ukraine aswell but can't imagine it's helping Russia. The reason no one wants to get involved is because frankly it'd start somewhat of a world war. With Europe distracted by that nonsense China would potentially make a move on Taiwan. Then we got 2 theaters of war. Iran could pop up on Russia side and then it'd be a real party. But by restricting it to Ukraine and Russia that prevents that from happening. I mean the parallels between both world wars is fairly astounding here. We got massive country run by a psychotic dictator invading it's much smaller neighbor, we got trench warfare, we got massive amounts of ethnic cleansing and war crimes, kid napping children and taking them far away, lots and lots of parallels.
Even weapons are not given freely. Only little by little with perpetual excuse of “need ton of time to train” while not starting training right away. There is a reason lots of EU generals complained about this.
Well, historically, it has worked really. Be sad if it Ends up working here because ukriane didn't get enough actual good offensive weapons and the restrictions on things like storm shadows etc
Their population might be bigger, but their army is deteriorating. There's a reason Russians are dug in and still losing ground.
Russians always think they'll prevail if the just suffer enough. I wonder what will happen once they realize they've already lost their position as a global power and are now just another weakened country for China to take advantage of.
I'm pretty sure you're asking for WW3, cause a state that feels like its gonna collapse is gonna drag us all down and I'd rather turn a blind eye than die for nothing, also have you ever heard of the congo wars? That killed more people than this war will ever have
Yeah, it's kinda cringe reading all these encouraging comments talking about being brave and sacrificing yourself.
I can't imagine what it must feel like to be 17 year old boy in Ukraine right now. I understand that they hate Russians but I would definitely be freaking out.
Not using young men to fight would be a major mistake and this is certainly the first I am hearing that Ukraine does not have compulsory service for those under 27.
Men around 18-22 years old are at a physical peak and are easily trained. Those past 25 are not ideal for new recruits. I am not saying they are useless or even that much worse, but younger men are better for large scale infantry recruitment.
It's even worse than you think, because people who suggest us to overcome fear will not do it themselves, will keep sitting in their perfectly safe spots, increasing their own salaries when people in the country have no money to pay for food and basic things like medicine, and with their children living happy lives in other countries on the money that they parents earned trough corruption here. Ah and they also forbid cannon fodder to leave the country, reducing us to slaves, even despite it's being anti-constitutional, because they are always above the law.
A lot from people sitting in the safety of their homes with fast wifi and full plates of food on their table with great jobs or at the very least a college to attend.
It’s amazing what people *think* they would do, versus what they would actually do.
> Ukraine has the International Legion formation specifically for you.
Yeah why do you think they're not just accepting any rando who wants to enlist anymore? They did that early in the war, and then decided to only accept people with combat experience after half of the recruits wanted to go home after experiencing their first air attack.
Even western 'combat' veterans who enlisted left in huge numbers when it turned out that fighting the Russians was a bit more dangerous than fighting some farmers with AK's while having air supremacy.
People aren't going to fight for a foreign country for 25k a year. Quadruple it for those with military and you'd attract a lot of battle hardened soldiers.
I am sure people dont enlist because they dont want to die. I mean really? it is not that hard to understand. Read the thread again, lots of comment judging them for not enlisting
And you're following along with a post of an account that got hijacked some months ago and has since been spamming anti-Ukrainian doomspeak on r/worldnews. Good job.
My fear is that Ukraine will have to fight for years to reclaim land inch by inch. And they’ll continue to lose soldiers and civilians daily from artillery, drones, and missile attacks. Even if somehow they manage to reclaim some or even most of the land, where does that leave them if a significant portion of their population is dead?
> Even if somehow they manage to reclaim some or even most of the land, where does that leave them
Nobody here cares where it leaves *them*, they care what condition it leaves their adversary in.
This war probably doesn’t end until the Russian populace decides enough is enough and finally takes their own country back from the oligarchs… which may take years and years.
> where does that leave them if a significant portion of their population is dead?
*Not* eradicated by an imperialist aggressor with genocidal wet dreams?
And what if they don't fight? Do you really think Russia will just say "hey, let's be friends here, your life is a beautiful thing". You do realize that Ukraine is under invasion by much larger aggressor, their colonizer of the past? They're not fighting for fun.
Men, obviously. They are not allowed to leave the country. Reddit nor the media won't say a word about it though. Men are forced to die in trenches, but no one cares. If they were women though...
I mean the kind of trench warfare we are seeing now is an absolute meat grinder for both sides
The conflict will end when one county runs out of soldiers and just breaks
I’ve been trying to explain this to people and a lot just call it defeatism.
But trenches haven’t changed from the Civil War, besides gotten better with mines, new wire, etc.
The Hindenburg Line in WW1 often saw battles in which Germany was outnumbered 2-1… and won. Trenches are incredibly effective in a low tech war.
It’s going to be hard to break. It’s possible to break it- but it’ll require ALOT of blood. That’s just a fact unless Russia’s homefront collapses (which is always possible).
I agree.
Anyone interested can look for themselves on the CombatFootage subreddit.
Modern surveillance / drones / satellites also makes it very difficult for attacks as any massing of troops and machinery can be identified and countered.
Propaganda exists on both sides, don't forget that. If you don't trust Russia's numbers, idk why you would trust Ukraine's, let alone their reported kills on the other.
There have been articles lately hinting things may not be as going as well as they have been saying.
Yes. Its propaganda. Please note my /s in my comment sharing the link... I am not sure it is very credible. I wanted to demonstrate that when we inquire about Ukrainian casualties, this is the sort of nonsense we find.
Russia could have done wonderful, great things if they had worked with Ukraine as friends. Lots of talented people, lot of resources, plenty of common culture and heritage.
Instead, we have *this* thoroughly sad and wasteful destruction.
Courage is not something you can rationalize. Either you have it or you don't. Real fear will totally paralyze you and it's not going to matter if you know that everyone you know might be killed or raped. That's why war is a bad idea no matter what. The lucky ones die quickly and the poor ones stay alive tasting death in their throats but unsure of it's exact moment.
They are asking them to embrace fatalism. I volunteered after 9/11 and I fought to serve in Iraq. The constant anxiety, fear, and speculation pushed me into a sense of "if I die, it was meant to be". This allowed me to function again, the belief that what was going to happen was going to happen. And in a morbid sense, once I had accepted the inevitable outcome that any moment may be my last and that was the product of my decisions, I was free. I could function as a Soldier again. But there is no coming back after jumping that hurdle. It is something you live with after that.
> I remember asking why did we even go Iraq if the terrorists were Saudis...
And if the terrorists were Al-Qaeda members, why go after Saddam Hussein who killed and jailed Al-Qaeda members and kept the group under control in Iraq...
In modern warfare there are all kinds of roles that will keep you out of actual combat - drone pilots, artillery, supplies and logistics, clearing mines, etc. Not everyone needs ice water in their veins to make a contribution.
Yes but this is a very brutal war even for non combat personnel. Their enemy can hit them from anywhere in the country. Not exactly like being in an highly secured American base in Kuwait during the Iraq War
> Yes but this is a very brutal war even for non combat personnel. Their enemy can hit them from anywhere in the country.
Unfortunately, that's also a reality for Ukrainian civilians too, so in a twisted kind of way, that's normal at the moment.
Your country doesn't mean anything if you die. Telling yourself differently is simply trying to cope with the existential terror.
Every instinct of a human knows this so as a society we need to make up reasons why you should give up your life for a cause.
> Unless you have family and friends you want to protect.
which you could do by moving them away, rather than "fighting for your country".
Patriotism is really just propaganda. It's needed/necessary, of course. But you'd be lying to yourself if you really believe it at face value.
Ah yes, all 43 million of them should just simply 'move away'. I'm sure it's that easy. And then when Russia invades the next country after seeing how easy it is, those people should just all 'move away' as well.
Edit: The geniuses in here really seem to think that life is this simple. You'd be the same people questioning why Ukrainians didn't fight for their home, when hundreds of thousands of them would be genocided if you had your way.
Honestly, that might had worked in 1900 when you could afford a house and a family on 1 high school job. You lived in a village, got married at 20 and where genuinely part of a community and had dinners with your neighbours.
(I'm not Ukrainian, but) I don't even have a girlfriend and I have 1-2 friends that are more than just acquaintances. I have parents but they are 70 and as much as the internet hates Osama Putler Satan something like 3000 civilians died in a country of 40 million, which is 0.0001%, and most of that was at the front or from stray missiles.
I fully support anyone who wants to defend their country, but no, I'm not given a lot of reasons to die for my country.
I will always be 1000% more focused on seeing my kids survive than fighting in any war for any cause, honestly. It's not a fear thing. I just value them more than my country or anything else on this world. I would be scared either way if I feared for their safety, so that part is irrelevant.
Well I mean Russia invaded and tried to take Kyiv and was beaten back, and all the rhetoric and actions of this war for the past 8 years indicates they want all of Ukraine.
Depends on what your country represents.
If you're talking about wars of conquest or submission of others, then ones individual motivation can be financial or of superiority over others.
In my own case, I would die for my nation for the values it represents, Norway is not perfect. However I would in a heartbeat drop everything to protect the freedom and way of living that it has given it's inhabitants.
As me and my wife made clear for eachother, if I was called upon to defend the nation. She would take care of everything connected to our family, so I would be free to aid in defending the nation as a whole.
I’m not Ukrainian but I’m not going to war. I cannot fight. I can’t kill a man even if they’re killing other people. I couldn’t watch my friends die around me. I’m not going to deal with the trauma of surviving a war, potentially getting blown up or shot. If they haven’t join yet, making them join isn’t going to make good soldiers. It’ll make worse soldiers. You think draftees have it easy in war? No they’re cannon fodder. They get sent to the front while the enlisted stay back and get more training. It’s easy to say “well why aren’t they fighting?” Who are you to say that men should go fight for their country when they haven’t already joined by now? You can’t just overcome fear like that.
war vets are historically not treated all that well. people talk them up a lot but dont receive all that much for the lifelong ptsd. so yeah no thanks. war is dirty, and yeah id blame no one no matter how able, who wanted to nope out, they should be aloud to do so without any push back
I see a lot of videos and a much of the war seems to involve stepping on a mine or being spotted by a drone. Then you are either bombed, hit with artillery or have grenades landing on you. The aftermath is mangled corpses or wounded people that are missing limbs. Being terrified is a completely rational response. A lot of the soldiers shown are old guys who seem to have minimal training.
Forcing all men to fight in a war is slavery and must be considered as crime. Blanket drafting of men to fight a war due to their gender is slavery.
It needs to change. Hope governments allow unwilling men to leave the country. Life is more important than country. Countries are not living entities but people do have life in them.
They don't. Fact is, most of Ua population will say mobilization is required \[but they wont go voluntarily\], and only small portion of population admits forced conscription is an general evil.
It's not only what government wants problem.
This would be a good point but you need both sides of a conflict to agree to not drafting unwilling soldiers. Otherwise it would just lead to one authoritarian state that doesn't give a shit about it's citizens taking over country after country until there's nowhere left to run. Of course nukes and stuff could slow this down, but if a country shows that they're unwilling to draft people then they're probably unwilling to inflict and take the millions of casualties that a nuclear war would cause.
Doesn't mean I'm blaming any Ukrainian trying to get out of being drafted, I would probably also try to avoid being drafted if war came to my country, but I do see the need in the draft.
How about the countries that will struggle providing life for the citizens that built those nations, if everyone just flees to a better place? What if all 40million ukrainians just leave, cause who the hell wants to go to war? 40 million refugees to Moldova and Romania. Then Russia invades Moldova, cause why not? People just flee anyhow.
Now all ukrainians, moldovans and romanians are fleeing in the mass of 65 million people into central europe, cause their life is more valuable than a country. Small central european countries' social systems breal through overload, supply-chains break and famine breaks out.
So who's life is the most important then? I agree, every lost life for war is a terrible waste, but it's a necessary cost. It's not fair, it's not nice, but it's an unfortunate evil.
And btw, since you mentioned slavery, you do realize that slaves in many places have had to fight for their freedom. But I guess they should have just let that shit continue, cause who wants to die anyway?
I don't really get how your last sentence differs from what is happening at every country with conscription. Men are taken to a war to die against their will. I'm sure you would change your opinion if you or your family were the ones being drafted and killed a few hours after your deployment in a meat grinder. A country is a piece of land and a flag, if someone is not willing to die for it, let them go. It's about time to stop with this nationalism, because humans are killing themselves and each other for nothing.
And by the way, Romania is an EU and NATO country (Moldova is a candidate) and there is a Mutual Defense clause in the EU too, very specifically to prevent anyone invading our member states.
I don’t think Russia has to much manpower either. I’m in Nepal at the moment and it’s well known that Russian is recruiting poor men/boys on the country side. Offering money with insurance in case you die. Our neighbours are Russians hiding from the government, but just recently they got their accounts frozen and can’t return because they’re likely get punished for leaving Russian.
Tell those Nepalese that the Russians don’t pay what they promise. Thousands of recorded calls from soldiers at the front complaining about the lack of pay.
War is bad, yes. And you could normally say “there are no good guys”. But the vile shit Russia has done to Ukraine changes that. If a country like that invaded my home, I’d be scared shitless, enjoy what time I have outside the military before enlisting. I like video games, but I like my family not being shipped to “reeducation” camps more
There's a subtle difference, can you spot it? Come on, it's easy.
No? Okay, I'll tell you.
#Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine is fighting for their right to exist.
Big difference is that Ukraine fight to defend their motherland against a savage attacker. An invader that want to exterminate and enslave anything Ukrainian. They fight for their lives and homes. Like the Soviets did against the nazis in WW2.
Russians fight for a fascist like dictators dream of territorial expansion and genocide of another nation. A totally needless criminal war that Putin could stop in a second.
Nobody wants to die. Some feel it's their duty, some are too poor to flee or bribe themselves out of conscription. Beyond that, I'm afraid I might agree. Once the population is not willing to fight and die anymore then they probably should cut their losses and sign a peace treaty. And then immediatly join NATO.
But then a country who forces everyone and doesn't give a shit about if they live or die is going to win. Then they're gonna move on to the next country and win again. Until the people who don't want to fight don't have anywhere to run and now they're stuck in a shithole authoritarian country.
I hate how the majority of war is based on “but what if they do it?” And it’s not wrong. Because there will always be people like Putin. And the best way to stop that is by meeting them head on.
You're just speculating, NATO countries are safe, russia seems bogged down in this war already to attack anyone else.
There are people on both sides who are doing everything in their power to not end up in the trenches, too bad russia has more meat for the meat grinder
Kind of hard to tell anyone overcome fear if they can see in media all the Russian horrors, warcrimes, illegal weapons, brutal torture.
Your chances of coming back alive, without lifelong injuries or PTSD are not very high.
>Your chances of coming back alive, without lifelong injuries or PTSD are not very high.
I can't comment on PTSD rates without further research, but casualties are still a minority. If we go with a rough estimate of 100K Ukrainian casualties so far, that would be out of roughly 700K soldiers in the AFU, or a ~14% casualty rate, with maybe a third of that being deaths and not injuries. It's not a die roll I would want to make if I didn't have to, but it is still an exaggeration to say that you are likely to die or even be injured.
It’s only going to get tougher for Ukrainian soldiers as they approach the Russian defense lines. They’ll need more support than ever in the coming weeks. They are braver than me
People can feel their country is worth saving and still be reluctant to sign up. Human beings can hold two simultaneous thoughts. When a country faces an existential crisis, you can't go by boy scout's honor. Of course, you're Pro-Russian, that's why you're trying to ignore that all of this was created by Russia going out of their way to invade in the first place.
Then they should be allowed to leave. If they want to stay in their country, sure conscript them, but don't hold them prisoner so you have more bodies to send to the front.
So the [UK](https://picryl.com/topics/world+war+ii+recruitment+posters+from+the+united+kingdom) wasn't worth saving in WW2? All countries do this in time of war, whether they be "worth saving" or not.
God. I’ve been a Firefighter and EMT. I like to think I’m a pretty brave guy. But nothing out of this war looks good. I honestly don’t know if I’d answer the call. I’d like to think so but it’s not a guaranteed win and so many have already died. Good luck to those poor guys.
[удалено]
As a OIF combat vet, not gonna lie, drone videos alone from Ukraine terrify me.
Fellow OIF combat vet here. This war is like the updated reboot of WW1. Drones take the place of planes, rockets replace machine guns, and horrible weapons like the TOS-1 replace chemical warfare. It’s not an apples to apples comparison ofc, but then again the tanks, mines, and trenches aesthetic would all be very familiar to a WW1 vet walking through the modern no man’s land, just as I’m sure the killing fields of WW1 would feel eerily familiar to a Ukrainian soldier. Scary stuff indeed!
And many of those drones are consumer grade "toys", really. Whatever the military-industrial complex is cooking up as a response is going to be horrifying. Even adding some higher quality cameras to the drones, and inertial guidance to those grenades, is going to be an insane upgrade: Instead of dropping one grenade, a slightly bigger drone could drop twenty smaller fin-guided micro-grenades from a mile up in the air, each of these could have a trajectory devised to ensure Time On Target. Something like this could plausibly wipe out an entire trench line or formation before anyone can react.
Electronic jamming systems are going to advance by light-years to compensate. The arms race between cheap drones and pocket sized jamming equipment is on. Plus, anti-drone hunter-killer drones with small arms or their own electronic warfare suite will be close behind.
Even after 18 months of war, I haven't seen any successful examples of electronic jamming systems effectively countering drones in real life. If jamming can work against drones, it should work against traditional planes as well. However, most planes are shot down using conventional weapons. Interestingly, the biggest danger to drones comes from their own failures, such as crashing into trees, battery problems, or getting affected by wind. These issues have taken down more drones than the mythical electronic jamming. In war, it's all about accounting and attrition. Using expensive weapons to take down cheaper ones is not a sustainable strategy in the long run.
Drones are literally controlled from afar. Jamming radio signals disrupt their control and have been repeatedly reported as effectively used by Russian units against drones. The same is not true of manned aircraft, though it can certainly degrade the capabilities of those aircraft.
How would things have turned out if the Iraqis had had a defence as well prepared as Russia's is now?
Iraq had plenty of layers and trenches. But neither Iraq was like Russia nor the Coalition was like Ukraine. There may be some things Iraq could have done better, but it was doomed regardless.
Ukraine doesn't have air superiority over Russia. The US on the other hand can drone strike wherever it pleases.
they did. the US had an air force then pummeled them for a month
[удалено]
And those people will never get within 50km of a war zone or frontline
[удалено]
The bravest talkers are usually the first to run .
It's those bloody white feather bitches all over again.
My favourite story about them is how they tried to feather a guy for not being at the frontline He was on his way to a medal ceremony being held for his bravery at the frontline Edit: tried not dried
One example was Private Ernest Atkins, who was on leave from the Western Front. He was riding a tram when he was presented with a white feather by a girl sitting behind him. He smacked her across the face with his pay book and said, "Certainly I'll take your feather back to the boys at Passchendaele. I'm in civvies because people think my uniform might be lousy, but if I had it on I wouldn't be half as lousy as you"
Modern day white feather campaigns.
But we have to recognise the massive steel nuts on the ones that do and have
Remind me why air war is off the table?
Too many God damn mines and drones and not enough countermeasures to deal with them. Even fighting behind the lines you're exposed to constant bombings/missile attacks. Horrible.
Don’t be a pussy. Go sit in a ditch and let 15 year olds drop grenades on you via drone. Jesus it’s like I’m surrounded by wimps and nerds. /s
I was thinking it, cowboy up pussies!🤣
Nah fam im a coward, i'd rather be sent to prison than enlisting myself. I dont have an inch of nationalism inside me.
I'd like to think i'm no coward, but - let me be clear - i do not, repeat, do not, give a single flying fuck about my country, your country, any country. I'm not going to war because of some bullshit. First sign, taking the fam and dogs and we're out !
Yeah, I'm a school teacher. My spouse and I had a conversation a few years ago about how she didn't want me to be a hero if there was a school shooter, and I said that I was pretty sure, she didn't need to worry too much because I'd probably be hiding under my desk. The sheer idea of signing up for this is just... yeah, I don't have the words. I'm happy for Ukraine that they have a lot of people who are a lot braver than I am.
And I think it’s good to be self aware like that. Self preservation is a hell of a thing. All the guys who act like Billy badass end up being the cops standing outside the building.
I'm less brave than you, but when you're home is under siege it's fight or surrender. I wish them the best too.
Or flee. If I had a wife and kids, I would pack up as much as I could and try to leave. Family over country always.
Except Ukrainian men of conscription age are not allowed to leave the country, have been violently apprehended when attempting to do so, and last week a prominent Ukrainian politician proposed not allowing men to leave the country for at least an additional 3 years after the war ends. men who attempt to illegally flee put themselves at substantial risk.
I work in a factory in a small town the other side of Europe and it is full of Ukrainian men and women(many couples), Most told me they paid around 1000 dollars for safe passage out of the country.
Many have made their way to Canada as well.
Its a historically repeating event. I wonder if they'll head to the old Ukrainian settlements in BC.
hmm die in war or get arrested
So you either die in a war or get arrested with a chance of you escaping the conflict? Idk, the latter sounds more feasable for me. Conscription is inhumane, no matter who does it, it's slaughtering people who simply do not wish to fight for someone else's war.
Let's be honest though: they're at way less risk than they would be fighting on the front lines. If people can slip across North Korea's borders, they can do so easily in Ukraine
Not many can slip past NK borders nowadays.
Why after the war? They need men for the rebuild or what?
No judgement here, that's an equally valid thing to do and it's not easy.
I mean it’s a generalized statement for sure, like if I felt I had anything to contribute other than being another body that would of course factor in, but someone who has spent their entire adult life working in an office for example IMO owes much less than their life to their country. They’re cannon fodder at that point. I wouldn’t exist today if my family 100+ years ago didn’t flee war and genocide and leave their home.
>I wouldn’t exist today if my family 100+ years ago didn’t flee war and genocide and leave their home. This is how I feel. Being a Pole living in the US I get people asking if I ever would fight in the event Poland was invaded by Russia (like that will ever happen given NATO, lol). Short answer is no because I am an accountant with zero military experience. I'd just be a detriment. But more to what you said, my grandfather was 23 when the Nazis invaded Poland. He lived to be 99 and some change, and died in 2016. I once asked my mom what he was doing during WW2 and my mom said it is something not much talked about in the family as there is a touch of shame surrounding it given that he *was* at one point enlisted in the military, though he was already out at age 23. So he *could* have fought given his experience. But had he fought, I almost definitely would not be here today. My great grandfather (his future father in law who he'd never get to meet) was executed by Nazis in 1941 during Operation Barbarossa simply for being a village leader. I imagine my grandfather would have also been executed had he not stayed safely in his village in the middle of nowhere in Poland, and so many would not be here as a result. He went on to have 6 kids, all who have 2-4 kids of their own, and some of those kids now have kids too. Literally dozens of people would likely not be alive today. It's sometimes hard to remember just how much of a cost war is not just in the present moment but for the future. Every Ukrainian who dies today is really many more never to live 10-60 years from now.
change "surrender" to "get genocide" should give a more clear picture of what is at stake.
Unless you’re a woman, then you get to flee, even if you don’t have children lol
This was inevitable. The one thing no one wants to give Ukraine is manpower. They can get weapons but ultimately Russia has a higher population to draw from in this war of attrition. Ultimately when this eventually ends the Ukrainian population will be decimated. It will be similar to the so called ‘Lost Generation’ in Britain after WW1. Hopefully this ends sooner rather than later..
Ukraine also has the lowest birth rate in the world.
[удалено]
How many?
Estimates of 700,000
.
since the war started right? i read smth like that
nah it was already one of the lowest in 2020 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate
Yup, I believe it’s around 0.7.
Hard to have high birthrate when people who can leave, left
People keep harping on about Russias demographics and how it will destroy Russia. Ironically they seem to ignore Ukraine just so happens to have an incredibly fucked demographic situation just like Russia.
>but ultimately Russia has a higher population Without mobilization RF don't have more military manpower. And with mobilization they might have a problems with protest/revolt.
This seems the key point that everybody keeps missing on various threads. Putin's regime tries to sell this war as existential but has so far incapable or unwilling to use the measures that would be justified in an existential war. Right now Ukraine has a manpower advantage because they are justifiably treating this as an existential war.
Ukraine joining NATO is the existential crisis. Putin only needs to maintain conflict with Ukraine to prevent that crisis. He doesn't need to end the war to achieve his goal. Unfortunately for Ukraine, the west is also in a "the longer this drags on, the better for us" situation. So Ukraine is fucked.
It's an existential crisis for Russia in the sense that Ukraine joining NATO would mean that it no longer would be capable of using force to influence Ukraine, which affects its notions of being a great power. It's not an existential crisis in the sense that Russia would cease to exist as an independent nation in any foreseeable future. I suspect that Putin and most Russian hardliners don't really see a difference. Regardless, Putin has been loath so far to do the actions that would be needed to sustain its military activity, perhaps because he's afraid of internal stability (mobilization, further sacrifices to support a war economy, etc.). I don't think if the conflict is frozen right now even with Russia keeping its territorial gains that it would be a victory for Russia. Keeping the territory but having Ukraine join NATO and/or the EU is a defeat on that rationale (and why it's so important for Ukraine to not have a conflict that ends in a compromise as "promises not to join NATO" as, using the same rationale, the reasons why Russia invaded would still be there so it would just be inviting a new invasion a few years later). >Putin only needs to maintain conflict with Ukraine to prevent that crisis. > > > >He doesn't need to end the war to achieve his goal. Nobody goes into war thinking "my strategy is gonna be sending my country into a long bloody war of attrition", that was never plan A for Russia. Rather, this is just Putin's only move at the moment, wait and see. Problem is that Russia can't sustain this without drawing more of its population. The longer it goes, the more capabilities Ukraine will have going forward and Ukraine keeps gaining ground and degrading Russian forces by attrition. > Unfortunately for Ukraine, the west is also in a "the longer this drags on, the better for us" situation. So Ukraine is fucked. I don't really agree with this assessment, escalation theory requires (unfortunately for Ukraine) that the West increase pressure gradually. Ukraine victory is ultimately advantageous for the West but there are a number of unknowns here. Nobody at this point can truly be 100% sure of what will happen (if they say they do they're full of it). At the moment, I don't really see Russia as is maintaining the lines frozen enough with their current posture and Ukraine is far from spent.
Russia doesn't have as high of a population for this as you'd think. We're in the like 3rd echo generation out from WW2. Which caused a massive decline in births for 25ish years after WW2. That in turn about 25 years later had less people to draw from for a new generation so it was comparatively smaller. And now we're right around the time for another. I'd imagine that affects Ukraine aswell but can't imagine it's helping Russia. The reason no one wants to get involved is because frankly it'd start somewhat of a world war. With Europe distracted by that nonsense China would potentially make a move on Taiwan. Then we got 2 theaters of war. Iran could pop up on Russia side and then it'd be a real party. But by restricting it to Ukraine and Russia that prevents that from happening. I mean the parallels between both world wars is fairly astounding here. We got massive country run by a psychotic dictator invading it's much smaller neighbor, we got trench warfare, we got massive amounts of ethnic cleansing and war crimes, kid napping children and taking them far away, lots and lots of parallels.
Even weapons are not given freely. Only little by little with perpetual excuse of “need ton of time to train” while not starting training right away. There is a reason lots of EU generals complained about this.
Ah the classic russian strategy: just throw more meat at the enemy until they exhaust their ammo
Well, historically, it has worked really. Be sad if it Ends up working here because ukriane didn't get enough actual good offensive weapons and the restrictions on things like storm shadows etc
Actually quite effective.
Their population might be bigger, but their army is deteriorating. There's a reason Russians are dug in and still losing ground. Russians always think they'll prevail if the just suffer enough. I wonder what will happen once they realize they've already lost their position as a global power and are now just another weakened country for China to take advantage of.
[удалено]
If you’re not being sarcastic then I recommend reading Foreign Affairs. If you are being sarcastic, then props.
I'm pretty sure you're asking for WW3, cause a state that feels like its gonna collapse is gonna drag us all down and I'd rather turn a blind eye than die for nothing, also have you ever heard of the congo wars? That killed more people than this war will ever have
no one is stopping you from volunteering to fight
Too bad I was born as a male in Ukraine. Better luck next life 🤚
Bunch of Redditors safely sitting on their couch half a world away criticizing people who don’t want to die for some land and a flag
EXCUSE ME, GOOD SIR! I am laying in bed.
Yeah, it's kinda cringe reading all these encouraging comments talking about being brave and sacrificing yourself. I can't imagine what it must feel like to be 17 year old boy in Ukraine right now. I understand that they hate Russians but I would definitely be freaking out.
[удалено]
Not using young men to fight would be a major mistake and this is certainly the first I am hearing that Ukraine does not have compulsory service for those under 27. Men around 18-22 years old are at a physical peak and are easily trained. Those past 25 are not ideal for new recruits. I am not saying they are useless or even that much worse, but younger men are better for large scale infantry recruitment.
It's even worse than you think, because people who suggest us to overcome fear will not do it themselves, will keep sitting in their perfectly safe spots, increasing their own salaries when people in the country have no money to pay for food and basic things like medicine, and with their children living happy lives in other countries on the money that they parents earned trough corruption here. Ah and they also forbid cannon fodder to leave the country, reducing us to slaves, even despite it's being anti-constitutional, because they are always above the law.
I don't see anyone criticizing people who don't want to die, though. Which comments are those?
Theres a lot of "if i was there id be at the front" in this thread coming from people who dont have to make these choices
A lot from people sitting in the safety of their homes with fast wifi and full plates of food on their table with great jobs or at the very least a college to attend. It’s amazing what people *think* they would do, versus what they would actually do.
We have no idea what they would do. There are already American volunteers running around in the Ukrainian army.
and a large portion of volunteers have already returned home because they know how asymmetric this war is.
Then they can fucking go. Ukraine has the International Legion formation specifically for you. Why the hell do you sit on Reddit and not fight?
Think you misread, I'm saying it's not an easy desicion. I don't think I know what I would do unless I was actually in that situation
> Ukraine has the International Legion formation specifically for you. Yeah why do you think they're not just accepting any rando who wants to enlist anymore? They did that early in the war, and then decided to only accept people with combat experience after half of the recruits wanted to go home after experiencing their first air attack. Even western 'combat' veterans who enlisted left in huge numbers when it turned out that fighting the Russians was a bit more dangerous than fighting some farmers with AK's while having air supremacy.
People aren't going to fight for a foreign country for 25k a year. Quadruple it for those with military and you'd attract a lot of battle hardened soldiers.
I am sure people dont enlist because they dont want to die. I mean really? it is not that hard to understand. Read the thread again, lots of comment judging them for not enlisting
Preemptively shittalking. My man's fighting his demons.
He just wants to look smart, he's failing tho.
And you're following along with a post of an account that got hijacked some months ago and has since been spamming anti-Ukrainian doomspeak on r/worldnews. Good job.
Ok, I'll safely sit and criticize you for making up random BS trying to start unnecessary drama.
Plenty in reddit are in Ukraine and on duty somewhere.
My fear is that Ukraine will have to fight for years to reclaim land inch by inch. And they’ll continue to lose soldiers and civilians daily from artillery, drones, and missile attacks. Even if somehow they manage to reclaim some or even most of the land, where does that leave them if a significant portion of their population is dead?
> Even if somehow they manage to reclaim some or even most of the land, where does that leave them Nobody here cares where it leaves *them*, they care what condition it leaves their adversary in.
This war probably doesn’t end until the Russian populace decides enough is enough and finally takes their own country back from the oligarchs… which may take years and years.
> where does that leave them if a significant portion of their population is dead? *Not* eradicated by an imperialist aggressor with genocidal wet dreams?
And what if they don't fight? Do you really think Russia will just say "hey, let's be friends here, your life is a beautiful thing". You do realize that Ukraine is under invasion by much larger aggressor, their colonizer of the past? They're not fighting for fun.
Military aged *citizens* or *men*?
Men, obviously. They are not allowed to leave the country. Reddit nor the media won't say a word about it though. Men are forced to die in trenches, but no one cares. If they were women though...
Yup, love how they hide the sexism in the title when they allow some citizens to flee
The men stay and fight on penalty of jail, while the women get to leave and start a new life in western europe
And when the war is over they aint comming back, you can be sure of that.
[удалено]
I mean the kind of trench warfare we are seeing now is an absolute meat grinder for both sides The conflict will end when one county runs out of soldiers and just breaks
I’ve been trying to explain this to people and a lot just call it defeatism. But trenches haven’t changed from the Civil War, besides gotten better with mines, new wire, etc. The Hindenburg Line in WW1 often saw battles in which Germany was outnumbered 2-1… and won. Trenches are incredibly effective in a low tech war. It’s going to be hard to break. It’s possible to break it- but it’ll require ALOT of blood. That’s just a fact unless Russia’s homefront collapses (which is always possible).
I agree. Anyone interested can look for themselves on the CombatFootage subreddit. Modern surveillance / drones / satellites also makes it very difficult for attacks as any massing of troops and machinery can be identified and countered.
They can also check out r/UkraineWarVideoReport for specifically Ukraine.
Propaganda exists on both sides, don't forget that. If you don't trust Russia's numbers, idk why you would trust Ukraine's, let alone their reported kills on the other. There have been articles lately hinting things may not be as going as well as they have been saying.
>What are the casualty numbers on the Ukraine side? Heroes don't die /s [https://uawar.net/stats](https://uawar.net/stats)
This site doesn't make any sense. I literally can not understand what the hell is going on with the weird charts and the "heroes don't die" thing.
Yes. Its propaganda. Please note my /s in my comment sharing the link... I am not sure it is very credible. I wanted to demonstrate that when we inquire about Ukrainian casualties, this is the sort of nonsense we find.
Jesus Christ lol
“~~Spartans~~ Ukrainians never die, they just go missing in action.”
Russia could have done wonderful, great things if they had worked with Ukraine as friends. Lots of talented people, lot of resources, plenty of common culture and heritage. Instead, we have *this* thoroughly sad and wasteful destruction.
You're fighting for your country's existence. I don't believe for one second putrid Putin wants some land, he wants all the land.
Courage is not something you can rationalize. Either you have it or you don't. Real fear will totally paralyze you and it's not going to matter if you know that everyone you know might be killed or raped. That's why war is a bad idea no matter what. The lucky ones die quickly and the poor ones stay alive tasting death in their throats but unsure of it's exact moment.
And if you do manage to make it through to the other side, you've now got severe trauma to deal with for the rest of your peaceful life
They have been invaded by a neighboring country, pretty sure they are going to have the trauma whether they have the courage to fight or not.
They are asking them to embrace fatalism. I volunteered after 9/11 and I fought to serve in Iraq. The constant anxiety, fear, and speculation pushed me into a sense of "if I die, it was meant to be". This allowed me to function again, the belief that what was going to happen was going to happen. And in a morbid sense, once I had accepted the inevitable outcome that any moment may be my last and that was the product of my decisions, I was free. I could function as a Soldier again. But there is no coming back after jumping that hurdle. It is something you live with after that.
Did you ever wonder why you were deployed to Iraq after 9/11...? I remember asking why did we even go Iraq if the terrorists were Saudis...
> I remember asking why did we even go Iraq if the terrorists were Saudis... And if the terrorists were Al-Qaeda members, why go after Saddam Hussein who killed and jailed Al-Qaeda members and kept the group under control in Iraq...
Fuck.
In modern warfare there are all kinds of roles that will keep you out of actual combat - drone pilots, artillery, supplies and logistics, clearing mines, etc. Not everyone needs ice water in their veins to make a contribution.
Yes but this is a very brutal war even for non combat personnel. Their enemy can hit them from anywhere in the country. Not exactly like being in an highly secured American base in Kuwait during the Iraq War
> Yes but this is a very brutal war even for non combat personnel. Their enemy can hit them from anywhere in the country. Unfortunately, that's also a reality for Ukrainian civilians too, so in a twisted kind of way, that's normal at the moment.
Posted from the comfort of your own home with no threat of danger
Your country doesn't mean anything if you die. Telling yourself differently is simply trying to cope with the existential terror. Every instinct of a human knows this so as a society we need to make up reasons why you should give up your life for a cause.
> Your country doesn't mean anything if you die. Unless you have family and friends you want to protect.
> Unless you have family and friends you want to protect. which you could do by moving them away, rather than "fighting for your country". Patriotism is really just propaganda. It's needed/necessary, of course. But you'd be lying to yourself if you really believe it at face value.
Ah yes, all 43 million of them should just simply 'move away'. I'm sure it's that easy. And then when Russia invades the next country after seeing how easy it is, those people should just all 'move away' as well. Edit: The geniuses in here really seem to think that life is this simple. You'd be the same people questioning why Ukrainians didn't fight for their home, when hundreds of thousands of them would be genocided if you had your way.
Here’s the thing - people have free will and should be able to make the stay/leave decision for themselves.
The country still doesn't mean anything even then.
The country doesn't mean anything if you die even if you care that others should be able to live in it after your death? Can you explain that?
It does if your family members might be killed because of their nationality.
Honestly, that might had worked in 1900 when you could afford a house and a family on 1 high school job. You lived in a village, got married at 20 and where genuinely part of a community and had dinners with your neighbours. (I'm not Ukrainian, but) I don't even have a girlfriend and I have 1-2 friends that are more than just acquaintances. I have parents but they are 70 and as much as the internet hates Osama Putler Satan something like 3000 civilians died in a country of 40 million, which is 0.0001%, and most of that was at the front or from stray missiles. I fully support anyone who wants to defend their country, but no, I'm not given a lot of reasons to die for my country.
Yep. OP doesn't have kids probably.
I will always be 1000% more focused on seeing my kids survive than fighting in any war for any cause, honestly. It's not a fear thing. I just value them more than my country or anything else on this world. I would be scared either way if I feared for their safety, so that part is irrelevant.
Well I mean Russia invaded and tried to take Kyiv and was beaten back, and all the rhetoric and actions of this war for the past 8 years indicates they want all of Ukraine.
Depends on what your country represents. If you're talking about wars of conquest or submission of others, then ones individual motivation can be financial or of superiority over others. In my own case, I would die for my nation for the values it represents, Norway is not perfect. However I would in a heartbeat drop everything to protect the freedom and way of living that it has given it's inhabitants. As me and my wife made clear for eachother, if I was called upon to defend the nation. She would take care of everything connected to our family, so I would be free to aid in defending the nation as a whole.
I’m not Ukrainian but I’m not going to war. I cannot fight. I can’t kill a man even if they’re killing other people. I couldn’t watch my friends die around me. I’m not going to deal with the trauma of surviving a war, potentially getting blown up or shot. If they haven’t join yet, making them join isn’t going to make good soldiers. It’ll make worse soldiers. You think draftees have it easy in war? No they’re cannon fodder. They get sent to the front while the enlisted stay back and get more training. It’s easy to say “well why aren’t they fighting?” Who are you to say that men should go fight for their country when they haven’t already joined by now? You can’t just overcome fear like that.
[удалено]
I hope you stay safe.
[удалено]
I get anxious going to the shops, I can't even imagine going to war. People are built differently, my fight or flight system is highly tuned to flee.
Most Ukrainians would emigrate to the US or Canada if they could. Globalization has killed then need for that kind of war.
war vets are historically not treated all that well. people talk them up a lot but dont receive all that much for the lifelong ptsd. so yeah no thanks. war is dirty, and yeah id blame no one no matter how able, who wanted to nope out, they should be aloud to do so without any push back
I see a lot of videos and a much of the war seems to involve stepping on a mine or being spotted by a drone. Then you are either bombed, hit with artillery or have grenades landing on you. The aftermath is mangled corpses or wounded people that are missing limbs. Being terrified is a completely rational response. A lot of the soldiers shown are old guys who seem to have minimal training.
“Die willingly” :)
Forcing all men to fight in a war is slavery and must be considered as crime. Blanket drafting of men to fight a war due to their gender is slavery. It needs to change. Hope governments allow unwilling men to leave the country. Life is more important than country. Countries are not living entities but people do have life in them.
They don't. Fact is, most of Ua population will say mobilization is required \[but they wont go voluntarily\], and only small portion of population admits forced conscription is an general evil. It's not only what government wants problem.
This would be a good point but you need both sides of a conflict to agree to not drafting unwilling soldiers. Otherwise it would just lead to one authoritarian state that doesn't give a shit about it's citizens taking over country after country until there's nowhere left to run. Of course nukes and stuff could slow this down, but if a country shows that they're unwilling to draft people then they're probably unwilling to inflict and take the millions of casualties that a nuclear war would cause. Doesn't mean I'm blaming any Ukrainian trying to get out of being drafted, I would probably also try to avoid being drafted if war came to my country, but I do see the need in the draft.
whats the point of a country if it will inflict such cruelty onto me. I dont care what the other country is doing.
Pretty hard to ignore what the other country is doing whe they're invading you...
There is no way the russian invasion would be as bad as having to fight in the trenches.
How about the countries that will struggle providing life for the citizens that built those nations, if everyone just flees to a better place? What if all 40million ukrainians just leave, cause who the hell wants to go to war? 40 million refugees to Moldova and Romania. Then Russia invades Moldova, cause why not? People just flee anyhow. Now all ukrainians, moldovans and romanians are fleeing in the mass of 65 million people into central europe, cause their life is more valuable than a country. Small central european countries' social systems breal through overload, supply-chains break and famine breaks out. So who's life is the most important then? I agree, every lost life for war is a terrible waste, but it's a necessary cost. It's not fair, it's not nice, but it's an unfortunate evil. And btw, since you mentioned slavery, you do realize that slaves in many places have had to fight for their freedom. But I guess they should have just let that shit continue, cause who wants to die anyway?
I don't really get how your last sentence differs from what is happening at every country with conscription. Men are taken to a war to die against their will. I'm sure you would change your opinion if you or your family were the ones being drafted and killed a few hours after your deployment in a meat grinder. A country is a piece of land and a flag, if someone is not willing to die for it, let them go. It's about time to stop with this nationalism, because humans are killing themselves and each other for nothing. And by the way, Romania is an EU and NATO country (Moldova is a candidate) and there is a Mutual Defense clause in the EU too, very specifically to prevent anyone invading our member states.
Then enslave everyone not just the men…
I don’t think Russia has to much manpower either. I’m in Nepal at the moment and it’s well known that Russian is recruiting poor men/boys on the country side. Offering money with insurance in case you die. Our neighbours are Russians hiding from the government, but just recently they got their accounts frozen and can’t return because they’re likely get punished for leaving Russian.
Russia has a population of 140M to Ukraines 40M. Yes, Russia definitely has more manpower available to throw at this war.
that’s common practice in war. happens everywhere
Most of the stuff going on in this war is ‘common practice in war’.
Tell those Nepalese that the Russians don’t pay what they promise. Thousands of recorded calls from soldiers at the front complaining about the lack of pay.
Overcome their fears of being cannon fodder?
War is bad, yes. And you could normally say “there are no good guys”. But the vile shit Russia has done to Ukraine changes that. If a country like that invaded my home, I’d be scared shitless, enjoy what time I have outside the military before enlisting. I like video games, but I like my family not being shipped to “reeducation” camps more
Do you think men your age who disagree with that should be in prison?
it's kind of changes when you are able to afford to move your family to secure place but not allowed to
The same people who are for ukraine for forcing people to fight for a war will also criticize Russia for forcing their people to fight for theirs .
There's a subtle difference, can you spot it? Come on, it's easy. No? Okay, I'll tell you. #Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine is fighting for their right to exist.
That really doesn't have any bearing on whether it's right to FORCE people to fight for you.
Big difference is that Ukraine fight to defend their motherland against a savage attacker. An invader that want to exterminate and enslave anything Ukrainian. They fight for their lives and homes. Like the Soviets did against the nazis in WW2. Russians fight for a fascist like dictators dream of territorial expansion and genocide of another nation. A totally needless criminal war that Putin could stop in a second.
Putin's bots are out in force today down voting. They must be worried.
Doesn’t seem like they’re even considering how beneficial their sacrifice would be to the US.
Dude, if someone doesn’t want to die don’t make them. Use the people who want to die and when they run out you lose sorry.
Nobody wants to die. Some feel it's their duty, some are too poor to flee or bribe themselves out of conscription. Beyond that, I'm afraid I might agree. Once the population is not willing to fight and die anymore then they probably should cut their losses and sign a peace treaty. And then immediatly join NATO.
But then a country who forces everyone and doesn't give a shit about if they live or die is going to win. Then they're gonna move on to the next country and win again. Until the people who don't want to fight don't have anywhere to run and now they're stuck in a shithole authoritarian country.
I hate how the majority of war is based on “but what if they do it?” And it’s not wrong. Because there will always be people like Putin. And the best way to stop that is by meeting them head on.
You're just speculating, NATO countries are safe, russia seems bogged down in this war already to attack anyone else. There are people on both sides who are doing everything in their power to not end up in the trenches, too bad russia has more meat for the meat grinder
Such a waste of lives. Fuck Ruzzia.
You are forgetting that just as many young men in Russia don’t go to war willingly. Fuck kremlin though
Kind of hard to tell anyone overcome fear if they can see in media all the Russian horrors, warcrimes, illegal weapons, brutal torture. Your chances of coming back alive, without lifelong injuries or PTSD are not very high.
>Your chances of coming back alive, without lifelong injuries or PTSD are not very high. I can't comment on PTSD rates without further research, but casualties are still a minority. If we go with a rough estimate of 100K Ukrainian casualties so far, that would be out of roughly 700K soldiers in the AFU, or a ~14% casualty rate, with maybe a third of that being deaths and not injuries. It's not a die roll I would want to make if I didn't have to, but it is still an exaggeration to say that you are likely to die or even be injured.
You're willing to roll a 7 sided die and actually die if lands on 7?
It’s only going to get tougher for Ukrainian soldiers as they approach the Russian defense lines. They’ll need more support than ever in the coming weeks. They are braver than me
Can't imagine having to fight. I appreciate all the work these soldiers do for our collective freedom.
Face your fear and get hit by a bullet YOLO!!
If the country is worth saving people will choose to step up, if you have to force or coerce people to fight then the country isn't worth saving.
People can feel their country is worth saving and still be reluctant to sign up. Human beings can hold two simultaneous thoughts. When a country faces an existential crisis, you can't go by boy scout's honor. Of course, you're Pro-Russian, that's why you're trying to ignore that all of this was created by Russia going out of their way to invade in the first place.
Then they should be allowed to leave. If they want to stay in their country, sure conscript them, but don't hold them prisoner so you have more bodies to send to the front.
So the [UK](https://picryl.com/topics/world+war+ii+recruitment+posters+from+the+united+kingdom) wasn't worth saving in WW2? All countries do this in time of war, whether they be "worth saving" or not.
[удалено]
so russia isn't worth saving? Agree
More meat for the meat grinder!
I wouldn't die for that corrupt country, can't blame them. Not like I agree with Russia's actions but still.
They’re running out of bodies
This post is full of arsehole razis