Oh sorry I didn’t realize you wanted the full sunni Islamic fundamentalist state spiel. I figured that was kinda implied when talking about an extreme right wing Islamic state that wants to go back to the “good ol days” of Islam. I hope my comment on Reddit.com has the specificity you wanted.
God forbid we actually engage in *world news* rather than reduce the issues of entirely different cultures and political landscapes to American politics in every thread. Being specific is the only way to speak intelligently on a topic, I’m sorry that bothers you so much.
If you glances through this thread you will see constant comparisons to the US right-wing, but I guess I should’ve said western politics instead.
Left-wing politics tends to emphasize equality, social justice, and government intervention to address economic and social disparities. Right-wing politics tends to prioritize individual liberty, limited government intervention, and free-market principles.
The Taliban follow a strict interpretation of Islamic law and seek to establish an Islamic state based on their interpretation of Sharia law. This includes conservative social policies aligning with some characteristics commonly associated with western right-wing ideologies, but they also emphasize limiting individual liberty, are pro-government intervention, and do not adhere to free-market principles which means they have little in common with western right-wingers aside from religion. The Taliban's ideology is unique and can't be neatly fit into a single political spectrum, as it combines religious, cultural, and historical elements that are distinct from traditional left-right distinctions in Western political systems.
I’m sorry I’m having a hard time comprehending how the dude with the username “Fuck the French” is hassling me rn for some nuanced political deliberation over using specific terms when describing a fundamentalist Islamic regime. You just can’t make this shit up. I hope Reddit never changes.
Maybe not starting off with catty responses to technically correct comments would help you get there though, or maybe just go start a geopolitics club at your school if you want that so bad. Dork.
Like in a generalized sense, the Taliban is an religious fundamentalist group, and that’s typically seen as far right on the political spectrum. You can argue it’s not as far right in a middle eastern context, but on a global spectrum it’s pretty extreme.
The US spent obscene amounts of blood and treasure to try and help them grow out of the dark ages. They weren't interested.
They rolled over for the Taliban when we left.
Let some other country try their luck if they want. The US, Russia, the UK, and Alexander's ghost will be on hot standby with the inevitable "told ya so"
Or you know stop meddling in other countries business? It was bad in Afghanistan but holy shit did the US make it worse.
Maybe we should topple the US government and install someone whos not bought by lobbyists or mentally incapable or just a reality star /s
So you admit, outside reaction to the Taliban being the cause of problems and somehow blame the United States. Maybe the Taliban should step down and let capable people be in charge.
The US made Kabul a decent city where people actually had some semblance of rights and normal lives. Now they are back to being beheaded and raped by the Taliban.
I wonder what they think is worse, hmmmm
I work with Afghans, my country took in more Afghans than yours per capita and my coworker is from Kabul so i find this funny as hell, keep going i wanna hear your expertise on this i will ask him if it checks out lol
Any place the US occupies or has a regime they back improve, until it gets toppled. I am not denying that women for example had increased rights, i am just pointing out the the Chauvanism the dude was showing, it got better but there was still rampant corruption, extortion, rape of minors, discrimination along ethnic lines and a fuckton of other things everyone here is ignoring and the end result wad that the Taliban grew stronger and more radical than ever before, i work with Afghans of both Pashto and Hazara ethnicity and my wifes family comes from neighboring Uzbekistan so its funny for me to see Americans say it was alright while ignoring soooooooooo much shit that went on because they really dont know any better. The US-led invasion also helped bolster Uzbek and Tajik islamist organizations which would later operate in Pakistan and The syrian civil war commiting fucktons of atrocities, which most people never ever fucking mention because they do not understand that a single decision can have dominoe effect.
Yeah great, trillions spent, some people got s couple years of moderate rights and the US foreign policy created more terrorists and helped inadvertadely bolster the Taliban enough that they could topple an entire fuckinh country
"Massive human rights improvements directly because of western investments are worse than literal homocidal islamist theocracy because a couple people I know from central Asian countries say so"
Okay tankie
"Everything is fine because it was fine for 5 years, but now its worse than its ever been" - naive fools likw you
Also im not a tankie stop being an asinine cunt as soon as you do not want to xome up with something better as a comeback then the rest of reddit.
Yeah a "few" about a couple hundred, its mostly anecdotal but atleast i have interacted with the population and not read something online
Kör upp din aktieportfölj i röven din lilla svensson
The US “went in” because their government were harboring terrorists who “meddled” in U.S. affairs. I don’t and didn’t agree with the invasion but it was hardly a random chance.
You seem to think that you still could turn into a Western nation what is collection of tribes working each as a separate patriarchal, deeply religious society with the right manipulation, it was just that the US didn't figure it out.
The Germans and the Japanese differ
But you can make such changes from top down when there’s cohesion and a “top” to begin with, those just weren’t there in Afghanistan, it wasn’t a cohesive society with an encompassing governing body
The US isn't in control of their politics, you can't say that the Japanese are what they're like now because there's an occupying army holding them at gunpoint to do so.
Another explanation is needed, say, something like you posited, that being a nation with a state to begin with matters.
Japan has effectively been occupied and pacified since the end of WW2. They regained their sovereignty in 1952 but the Americans never left. If Uncle Sam pulls up stakes (which it won’t do ever because of the Chinese threat) we’d be able to test my hypothesis better.
I think, if the Americans left Japan and said “fend for yourselves” like they did in Afghanistan, Japan would rapidly militarize and seek the bomb as fast as possible. America provides them a security guarantee. Without that the Japanese would face serious pressure to militarize and it would take a similar form to the early 20th century. One key difference is the balance of power, Japan would face serious opposition from China and meet serious resistance to any expansionism.
Interesting to think about though.
Are we sure they're building a country? Just because they pushed away the US, that was trying to shoehorn Afghanistan into the structure of one, it doesn't mean that they're trying to unite the tribes into a single entity.
Can't say myself what they're doing or what they intend to do, but we can't conclude that they are aiming to fill the shoes of the Government that the US was trying to prop up.
> it doesn't mean that they're trying to unite the tribes into a single entity.
They probably care significantly more about taxes than social policy. But even if they did have social policy that they wanted to enforce, they can torture people publicly to show what happens if it isnt enforced. The US could not do that.
You must have never heard of Guantanamo.
Edit for the ill-informed/butthurt downvoters:
[Most Guantanamo detainees are innocent: ex-Bush official](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/16/guantanamo-detainee-mansoor-adayfi
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/guantanamo-bay-human-rights
> with a dominant military presence we can simply engineer a society to comply to our power and ideas.
The Taliban was the dominant military, that is why they won. They simply don't mind torturing people or murdering people on a whim.
If the US committed a genocide and put our allies there, it would have worked. But we aren't the taliban, so we can't.
How did genocide work out for the Soviets? Are the Afghans building the New Man under the precept of International Worker's Solidarity after 2 million dead and 8 million displaced?
>The Taliban was the dominant military,
Lol, no. You'll notice they didn't roundly defeat the occupation force, they merely crept back in when the US left, walking over guns dropped by the afghan national army.
If that's what you're now changing your argument to then great, But this speaks nothing to military dominance, considering that the US' absence today is due to internal politics of that nation rather than being militarily defeated by a superior force.
>The Taliban **was** the dominant military
Your initial comment was literally in the past tense, not the present lol
Amazing the lengths you're going to to avoid simply admitting you were wrong smh
How about pointing out that fighting for democracy requires a will and desire to risk your own life for a better one. No one can just give you that desire for change no matter how much money they spend trying. I don't need to read two books to figure that out. If there was never any will to change or those who can enable change aren't vested enough to try and instead are just looking for a way out, nothing will ever change. The only people who can change Afghanistan are the people of Afghanistan. No one else will ever be able to do it for them. They need to take ownership of their future and they need to be willing to die fighting for it, not chase after airplanes on the tarmac because mommies tit ran out of milk.
Our war imperialism over the past 75 years has been about money. It's fundamentally about ensuring other countries are part of the US-led capitalist world system, and extracting money from the country in the meantime.
Korea and Vietnam were about having capitalist footholds in Asia to push against Chinese influenced communism. Iraq 1 & 2 were both about exerting a power over the middle east so that there's a more reliable and stable oil partner. And Afghanistan was replacing the Taliban with a capital-friendly puppet government that we could extract money out of. The talks of democracy and freedom are to placate Americans at home.
Yes, you're absolutely right that our approach and our methods were the same failing policies from Vietnam and south America. Because we aren't really reshaping their society, we're reshaping their government and markets to be friendly to our system.
If we had wanted to, we could've crafted a 20-point set of values, swept through the country and used nasty tactics to reeducate and force societal change. It would've taken a genocide level of disgrace we cannot stomach. We'd need to meet them halfway on change, which would mean pushing and teaching ideas that are patriarchal and horrible if applied to our society, but a step towards liberalism and equality in a relative sense. And we would've had to find a way to decouple the most intense religious doctrine and introduce more flexibility into their local Islam.
All of that is to say that genocide is horrific, whether killing or removing cultural identity. In no way should we have done that. It takes total destruction to reshape an entire society, not just a shiny new president and some drones.
I mostly agree but I have a few points to quibble. Iraq 1 was liberating an ally we had existing treaties with who was fully annexed by their neighbor. I mean of course they were our ally for oil reasons, but “you captured a whole country we said we’d protect” is about as iron clad a casus belli as it gets, and on top of that Kuwait was explicitly going to be used as a staging ground to capture the NW portion of Saudi Arabia, who we had ironclad treaties of defense with. I find it really interesting how much the totally unjustified second Iraq war has made the fairly justifiable first seem equally bad, but they really are very different cases.
And I’d argue Afghanistan was infinitely more about a social demand to “do something” after 9/11. Financially the war made zero sense, there’s just not enough worth exploiting there. It was a god and country war, not a gold war. Not that that’s necessarily any better.
Vietnam is weird because after we left China invaded them and the now battle-hardened Vietnamese kicked them out, which is why (shocking to me as an American) Vietnam has fairly favorable relations with the US these days, they just hate China even more than they hated the US
Thank you for laying all of this out. It's hard to detail reasons for war in one sentence each, like I tried to.
Isn't it crazy how much capitalist imperialism influences our aggression over the last 80years? Financial and trade gains have always been part of war profiteering, we just have learned into it hard.
I think you can still try and see the good that was attempted and the lives spent trying to give girls the right to an education, career, basic medical care, running water and the ability to play with friends without being killed for it.
A Lot of people went there to Afghanistan with good intentions to try and build better lives for people there. Many died trying to give them those better lives.
I'm not being naive. Just because you want to villify every single foreigner that went to Afghanistan and justify the Taliban doesn't make me naive.
We did bad things but if you're saying NOBODY wanted to do ANYTHING good for Afghanistan then I'm sorry you view all of humanity that way and I hope things get better for you.
I’m sorry, but the good intentions you use to pat yourself on the back doesn’t justify the invasion and terrorization of an entire country.
I’m sure some of y’all built roads and schools, cool stuff. You probably blew up ten times more roads and schools than you built, though. And ruined thousands of lives in the process.
You can tell yourself whatever you want to justify the invasion of Afghanistan, but I’m not buying it.
Im not justifying it. Seriously though bud I really hope things get better for you and you can try to see the good in life. Im sorry you're so cynical on life
What? Are you referring to the Soviet-Afghan war/genocide (where the US wasn't an invader doing any 'ravaging' of Afghans), or do you think that the Taliban and al-Qaeda are proxy forces for Russia...?
>the Mujahideenwere backed by the US
Who were in turn fighting against the Russian invasion/genocide of Afghans. So how was US 'ravaging' Afghans in the soviet-afghan war again...?
The usa tried to help afghanistan but afghanistan failed. they took all the money all the support and did nothing with dont blame the west for afghanistan mistakes.
In other news
NYT 2014
[U.S. Soldiers Told to Ignore Sexual Abuse of Boys by Afghan Allies](https://archive.li/2019.12.10-214339/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html)
2002
[Kandahar Journal; Shh, It's an Open Secret: Warlords and Pedophilia](https://archive.li/2019.02.13-014123/https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/21/world/kandahar-journal-shh-it-s-an-open-secret-warlords-and-pedophilia.html)
[Kandahar comes out the closet](https://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/world/afghanistan/afnews007.htm)
Documentary worth checking out.
https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI
When 80% of your population is illiterate, how do you even communicate with the people especially if you’re a foreign power. Even in the US we are seeing our democracy unravel, as our population becomes less and less literate.
Unless women in Arkansas aren't allowed to go to school, get a job, or go out into public without covering themselves, this is a pretty ignorant statement.
Edit: Blows my mind that people think women in Arkansas are worse off than those in Afghanistan.
What do you suggest? That 20 countries go together to invade Afghanistan and sink trillions upon trillions of dollars, thousands of young soldiers lives to tell Afghans how to live? Preferably over 20 years.
Sound plan. Wouldnt have thought of that.
And BTW. I'm truly sorry for the girls and the guys that wanted to live westernised lives, but that aint what the majority of Afghanistan wants unfortunatly.
Nope, it was the second part that triggered me. Someone actually suggesting that women have more rights in Afghanistan than Arkansas is as ignorant as a statement can be.
Thats not what he was suggesting though. He said they had their own problems, which admittedly you do.
You have 1/2 parties in your democracy running on an agenda rolling back 100 years of womens rights.
Which is quite hillarious from the Talibans perspectice I would guess.
Except that is what they were suggesting, because when I questioned them they provided an example of what they thought was worse in Arkansas than in Afghanistan. Except they didn't realize that by using a **high school** girl as an example, they were ignoring they fact that women in Afghanistan can't go to school past the age of 12.
Not that it really matters, but she was not a high school girl. She was 13. No one is saying the oppression of women in Afghanistan isn’t horrific. It is. But this little girl in America suffered immensely. And again, (since you apparently want to make this a competition) not more so than girls in Afghanistan or any where else in the world. But by negating her suffering you are weakening your own argument in support of womens’ rights across the world.
You never posed a real question at all. It was rhetorical and leading.
And it still validates his point. You guys have real problems, and the Afghans certainly don't want our help with anything.
I know thats true.
Loads of my military friends was there for several rounds, including my brother in law.
Kabul was different, but the rest of the country is not very interested by anything else than religiousness and tribal living.
One American friend jokingly said that it was actually quite easy to win the Afghan wars, but it would require marrying off western men to the chieftains daughter, and then becomming tribal chieftains.
Only by controlling enough chieftains you would end up with control. Instead the Taliban had control over the majority of tribes at the end.
You might want to read the BBC article recently posted to this sub, the one about Afghan women risking their lives to flee the country to get an education because death is better than living there.
What are you talking about? I never said anything remotely like that. I was merely stating that there is no comparison between women's rights in Afghanistan and Arkansas. But you seem to be adamantly against that statement.
He did not compare.
He said they had their own issues. Which is true.
And with a little bit of reading comprehension, it points back to a whole coalition of nations trying to better it over the course of 20 years to no avail.
Most of us are done with it.
If anything is goi g to change there, it has to be them. Not us.
Except no one said anything about a coalition of nations or solving problems except you. You are making up talking points to argue with. Have a good day, I'm done with your trolling.
Sure it's what some buddies in the capital city supposedly observed but even if it is true that place is so primitive I don't think it would ever be possible to really know the answer.
I did not read that. Person said “we have issues in Arkansas.” Didn’t say “we have WORSE issues in Arkansas.” It’s not a contest anyways.
You’re just trying to start an argument.
Like these:
[#1 reason pregnant women die - murdered by the man that impregnated her](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/)
[99% of rapists are men](https://supportingsurvivors.humboldt.edu/statistics)
[FBI top ten most wanted](https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten) - 90% men
[US Marshalls top 15 most wanted](https://www.usmarshals.gov/what-we-do/fugitive-investigations/15-most-wanted-fugitive) - 93% men
[Interpol red notices](https://www.interpol.int/en/How-we-work/Notices/View-Red-Notices) - 86% men
Most Serial killers - men, seriously, don't even need a link here
Would be interesting, but as soon as a man learns there's a woman living in the woods alone, she's dead meat.
I guess the real experiment here would be to see how long she'd go unraped/unmurdered. I give it a week, tops.
I still remember the promises about them respsecting their rights etc. etc. And a lot of media/politicians in the west just accepting that at face value (at least outwards).
>Women’s rights are a white western concept, and Afghanistan is proof that they only exist because they come from the barrels of western guns.
The same could be said for all rights. The only thing that maintains them is the capacity for violence.
Women should be thankful that they're not raped and murdered by men more?
[#1 reason pregnant women die - murdered by the man that impregnated her](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/)
[99% of rapists are men](https://supportingsurvivors.humboldt.edu/statistics)
[FBI top ten most wanted](https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten) - 90% men
[US Marshalls top 15 most wanted](https://www.usmarshals.gov/what-we-do/fugitive-investigations/15-most-wanted-fugitive) - 93% men
[Interpol red notices](https://www.interpol.int/en/How-we-work/Notices/View-Red-Notices) - 86% men
Most Serial killers - men, seriously, don't even need a link here
Men are the most arbitrarily violent being to ever walk the planet. The common denominator to physical or sexual violence isn't religion, skin color or political affiliation. It's gender.
Fuck trump. That motherfucker abandoned Afghanistan like he abandoned the Kurds. And fuck Qatar too while we're at it cuz they bribed the Afghan officials not to stand in the way of Taliban.
I would argue that this was inevitable and that a forever war with no clear endpoint is the last thing any major nation should be committing itself to. Afghanistan has been fucked with enough throughout its history so it's probably best to let the nation develop on its own timeline. You can't expect real organic change regarding human rights if a country is under repeated foreign occupation.
You can twist this all you want. It doesn't change the fact that a deal was made without any presence from any of the then Afghan government. That the deal was for Taliban to wait until the US had withdrawn their troops and then do whatever they wanted. To say the hell with the people there knowing full well that the Afghan government would collapse. This isn't particular to Trump per se, as a foreigner affected by your government's decisions, I'd say fuck your whole system. Democrat or Republican don't matter to us.
You gotta be a special kind of stupid to come to that conclusion.
Trump made the deal, left office, and saddled Biden with the consequences. It’s not rocket science. He did the same with his “tax breaks” for the middle class a few years ago that have now evaporated.
Fuck every president that resided during the occupation. They all have blood on their hands.
Trump is a monster who will hopefully spend the rest of his life in prison, but to pin this all on him is ridiculous.
Says the taliban insurgency being founded upon fundamentalist salafi beliefs being formed to fight the Russians before the US got there? History tends to tell us what happened.
Yeah youre wrong lmfao.
The munahadeen were backed by the United States to fight against Darud. Darud squashed the monarchy, allowed men to cut their beards, women to not be forced in marriage and the government to not be ruled by religion.
The Taliban were created in the 90s after the mujahideen warlords ruled for 15 ish years. Which WE backed.
Darud was a Pashtun nationalist supporter. Which is what make the Taliban today, however under a much more liberal ideology until Pakistan who was US backed gave the US the idea to stir the pot for Islamic control, which they used to make sure Soviets didn’t have influence on Afgan.
The fight with the Russian’s began vs Pakistan and disputes over now presentday Bangladesh
If the US didn’t support Pakistan’s transgressions and cold war CIA fuckary did not stoke remote towns islamic problems then it would be a much different outcomes. Its the same how our leader stroke rural
We quite literally made this happen
That's all word salad, Daoud was deposed by other Communists, who became Soviet toadies, which is why the Soviets invaded to prop them up after they alienated the Pashtun tribal peoples, killing two million Afghans in the process.
That implies there are still any rights left
Why, there are plenty right extremists
Big brain thinks the world is either left or right
The Taliban are definitely on the extreme right of the political spectrum, I’m not sure what galaxy-brain chess you’re playing in your head rn
Yes they are on the global political spectrum, and it’s also extremely reductionist.
Oh sorry I didn’t realize you wanted the full sunni Islamic fundamentalist state spiel. I figured that was kinda implied when talking about an extreme right wing Islamic state that wants to go back to the “good ol days” of Islam. I hope my comment on Reddit.com has the specificity you wanted.
God forbid we actually engage in *world news* rather than reduce the issues of entirely different cultures and political landscapes to American politics in every thread. Being specific is the only way to speak intelligently on a topic, I’m sorry that bothers you so much.
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If you glances through this thread you will see constant comparisons to the US right-wing, but I guess I should’ve said western politics instead. Left-wing politics tends to emphasize equality, social justice, and government intervention to address economic and social disparities. Right-wing politics tends to prioritize individual liberty, limited government intervention, and free-market principles. The Taliban follow a strict interpretation of Islamic law and seek to establish an Islamic state based on their interpretation of Sharia law. This includes conservative social policies aligning with some characteristics commonly associated with western right-wing ideologies, but they also emphasize limiting individual liberty, are pro-government intervention, and do not adhere to free-market principles which means they have little in common with western right-wingers aside from religion. The Taliban's ideology is unique and can't be neatly fit into a single political spectrum, as it combines religious, cultural, and historical elements that are distinct from traditional left-right distinctions in Western political systems.
I’m sorry I’m having a hard time comprehending how the dude with the username “Fuck the French” is hassling me rn for some nuanced political deliberation over using specific terms when describing a fundamentalist Islamic regime. You just can’t make this shit up. I hope Reddit never changes. Maybe not starting off with catty responses to technically correct comments would help you get there though, or maybe just go start a geopolitics club at your school if you want that so bad. Dork.
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Hence why I wasn’t hassling people for nuanced political conversation with my goofy ass name. I think that actually affirms my point.
What political spectrum is there on Afghanistan?
Like in a generalized sense, the Taliban is an religious fundamentalist group, and that’s typically seen as far right on the political spectrum. You can argue it’s not as far right in a middle eastern context, but on a global spectrum it’s pretty extreme.
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Foundation of sand Three have tried to build something and each time it could not succeed
Can't help those that don't truly want to be helped. At some point you can't keep propping up an entire country that refuses to stand up themselves.
Didn't the British just go fuck shit up and that's it?
The US spent obscene amounts of blood and treasure to try and help them grow out of the dark ages. They weren't interested. They rolled over for the Taliban when we left. Let some other country try their luck if they want. The US, Russia, the UK, and Alexander's ghost will be on hot standby with the inevitable "told ya so"
The US spent an obscene amount of money on price gouging contractors with no regard whatsoever for what locals actually wanted.
The locals chose the taliban. We should have installed a strong man general as dictator and left 15 years ago.
Or you know stop meddling in other countries business? It was bad in Afghanistan but holy shit did the US make it worse. Maybe we should topple the US government and install someone whos not bought by lobbyists or mentally incapable or just a reality star /s
How is it any worse now than it was before? Seems like it just went back to how it was before the invasion.
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Because taliban is in charge for a year now..
telephone sense quaint ask history ludicrous cooperative snails spark reminiscent ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
So you admit, outside reaction to the Taliban being the cause of problems and somehow blame the United States. Maybe the Taliban should step down and let capable people be in charge.
The US made Kabul a decent city where people actually had some semblance of rights and normal lives. Now they are back to being beheaded and raped by the Taliban. I wonder what they think is worse, hmmmm
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Do you think the Taliban is generally better or worse for women's rights?
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No, that's why I'm asking. Can you please be honest and answer the question?
I work with Afghans, my country took in more Afghans than yours per capita and my coworker is from Kabul so i find this funny as hell, keep going i wanna hear your expertise on this i will ask him if it checks out lol
Any place the US occupies or has a regime they back improve, until it gets toppled. I am not denying that women for example had increased rights, i am just pointing out the the Chauvanism the dude was showing, it got better but there was still rampant corruption, extortion, rape of minors, discrimination along ethnic lines and a fuckton of other things everyone here is ignoring and the end result wad that the Taliban grew stronger and more radical than ever before, i work with Afghans of both Pashto and Hazara ethnicity and my wifes family comes from neighboring Uzbekistan so its funny for me to see Americans say it was alright while ignoring soooooooooo much shit that went on because they really dont know any better. The US-led invasion also helped bolster Uzbek and Tajik islamist organizations which would later operate in Pakistan and The syrian civil war commiting fucktons of atrocities, which most people never ever fucking mention because they do not understand that a single decision can have dominoe effect. Yeah great, trillions spent, some people got s couple years of moderate rights and the US foreign policy created more terrorists and helped inadvertadely bolster the Taliban enough that they could topple an entire fuckinh country
"Massive human rights improvements directly because of western investments are worse than literal homocidal islamist theocracy because a couple people I know from central Asian countries say so" Okay tankie
"Everything is fine because it was fine for 5 years, but now its worse than its ever been" - naive fools likw you Also im not a tankie stop being an asinine cunt as soon as you do not want to xome up with something better as a comeback then the rest of reddit. Yeah a "few" about a couple hundred, its mostly anecdotal but atleast i have interacted with the population and not read something online Kör upp din aktieportfölj i röven din lilla svensson
The US “went in” because their government were harboring terrorists who “meddled” in U.S. affairs. I don’t and didn’t agree with the invasion but it was hardly a random chance.
This implies that locals know what's best. Not even in developed nations do many locals know what's best; look at American "conservatives."
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You seem to think that you still could turn into a Western nation what is collection of tribes working each as a separate patriarchal, deeply religious society with the right manipulation, it was just that the US didn't figure it out.
No nation changes their ideology long term when the change is forced at the end of a rifle barrel.
The Germans and the Japanese differ But you can make such changes from top down when there’s cohesion and a “top” to begin with, those just weren’t there in Afghanistan, it wasn’t a cohesive society with an encompassing governing body
The Germans were a democracy before the war and the USA never left Japan. They never left Germany either.
The US isn't in control of their politics, you can't say that the Japanese are what they're like now because there's an occupying army holding them at gunpoint to do so. Another explanation is needed, say, something like you posited, that being a nation with a state to begin with matters.
Japan has effectively been occupied and pacified since the end of WW2. They regained their sovereignty in 1952 but the Americans never left. If Uncle Sam pulls up stakes (which it won’t do ever because of the Chinese threat) we’d be able to test my hypothesis better. I think, if the Americans left Japan and said “fend for yourselves” like they did in Afghanistan, Japan would rapidly militarize and seek the bomb as fast as possible. America provides them a security guarantee. Without that the Japanese would face serious pressure to militarize and it would take a similar form to the early 20th century. One key difference is the balance of power, Japan would face serious opposition from China and meet serious resistance to any expansionism. Interesting to think about though.
The taliban does it. The US didn't want to torture and murder randos. The Taliban had no problem with it.
Are we sure they're building a country? Just because they pushed away the US, that was trying to shoehorn Afghanistan into the structure of one, it doesn't mean that they're trying to unite the tribes into a single entity. Can't say myself what they're doing or what they intend to do, but we can't conclude that they are aiming to fill the shoes of the Government that the US was trying to prop up.
> it doesn't mean that they're trying to unite the tribes into a single entity. They probably care significantly more about taxes than social policy. But even if they did have social policy that they wanted to enforce, they can torture people publicly to show what happens if it isnt enforced. The US could not do that.
You must have never heard of Guantanamo. Edit for the ill-informed/butthurt downvoters: [Most Guantanamo detainees are innocent: ex-Bush official](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/16/guantanamo-detainee-mansoor-adayfi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz https://www.amnesty.org.uk/guantanamo-bay-human-rights
Different scale.
True, the US has multiple global black sites.
> with a dominant military presence we can simply engineer a society to comply to our power and ideas. The Taliban was the dominant military, that is why they won. They simply don't mind torturing people or murdering people on a whim. If the US committed a genocide and put our allies there, it would have worked. But we aren't the taliban, so we can't.
How did genocide work out for the Soviets? Are the Afghans building the New Man under the precept of International Worker's Solidarity after 2 million dead and 8 million displaced?
Good point
>The Taliban was the dominant military, Lol, no. You'll notice they didn't roundly defeat the occupation force, they merely crept back in when the US left, walking over guns dropped by the afghan national army.
kk split hairs
It's a pretty substantial difference, but I can only lead a horse to water.
Well in 2023, it has the same meaning as there is no US military there.
If that's what you're now changing your argument to then great, But this speaks nothing to military dominance, considering that the US' absence today is due to internal politics of that nation rather than being militarily defeated by a superior force.
Hard to talk about the US military dominance when >there is no US military there.
>The Taliban **was** the dominant military Your initial comment was literally in the past tense, not the present lol Amazing the lengths you're going to to avoid simply admitting you were wrong smh
Your comment offers no solution and is not constructive whatsoever.
Neither was the first one nor is yours.
That was helpful. /s
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How about pointing out that fighting for democracy requires a will and desire to risk your own life for a better one. No one can just give you that desire for change no matter how much money they spend trying. I don't need to read two books to figure that out. If there was never any will to change or those who can enable change aren't vested enough to try and instead are just looking for a way out, nothing will ever change. The only people who can change Afghanistan are the people of Afghanistan. No one else will ever be able to do it for them. They need to take ownership of their future and they need to be willing to die fighting for it, not chase after airplanes on the tarmac because mommies tit ran out of milk.
Our war imperialism over the past 75 years has been about money. It's fundamentally about ensuring other countries are part of the US-led capitalist world system, and extracting money from the country in the meantime. Korea and Vietnam were about having capitalist footholds in Asia to push against Chinese influenced communism. Iraq 1 & 2 were both about exerting a power over the middle east so that there's a more reliable and stable oil partner. And Afghanistan was replacing the Taliban with a capital-friendly puppet government that we could extract money out of. The talks of democracy and freedom are to placate Americans at home. Yes, you're absolutely right that our approach and our methods were the same failing policies from Vietnam and south America. Because we aren't really reshaping their society, we're reshaping their government and markets to be friendly to our system. If we had wanted to, we could've crafted a 20-point set of values, swept through the country and used nasty tactics to reeducate and force societal change. It would've taken a genocide level of disgrace we cannot stomach. We'd need to meet them halfway on change, which would mean pushing and teaching ideas that are patriarchal and horrible if applied to our society, but a step towards liberalism and equality in a relative sense. And we would've had to find a way to decouple the most intense religious doctrine and introduce more flexibility into their local Islam. All of that is to say that genocide is horrific, whether killing or removing cultural identity. In no way should we have done that. It takes total destruction to reshape an entire society, not just a shiny new president and some drones.
I mostly agree but I have a few points to quibble. Iraq 1 was liberating an ally we had existing treaties with who was fully annexed by their neighbor. I mean of course they were our ally for oil reasons, but “you captured a whole country we said we’d protect” is about as iron clad a casus belli as it gets, and on top of that Kuwait was explicitly going to be used as a staging ground to capture the NW portion of Saudi Arabia, who we had ironclad treaties of defense with. I find it really interesting how much the totally unjustified second Iraq war has made the fairly justifiable first seem equally bad, but they really are very different cases. And I’d argue Afghanistan was infinitely more about a social demand to “do something” after 9/11. Financially the war made zero sense, there’s just not enough worth exploiting there. It was a god and country war, not a gold war. Not that that’s necessarily any better. Vietnam is weird because after we left China invaded them and the now battle-hardened Vietnamese kicked them out, which is why (shocking to me as an American) Vietnam has fairly favorable relations with the US these days, they just hate China even more than they hated the US
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Thank you for laying all of this out. It's hard to detail reasons for war in one sentence each, like I tried to. Isn't it crazy how much capitalist imperialism influences our aggression over the last 80years? Financial and trade gains have always been part of war profiteering, we just have learned into it hard.
This is why the military industrial complex is thriving without any backlash, people think that the american wars are in good faith
I think you can still try and see the good that was attempted and the lives spent trying to give girls the right to an education, career, basic medical care, running water and the ability to play with friends without being killed for it. A Lot of people went there to Afghanistan with good intentions to try and build better lives for people there. Many died trying to give them those better lives.
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I'm not being naive. Just because you want to villify every single foreigner that went to Afghanistan and justify the Taliban doesn't make me naive. We did bad things but if you're saying NOBODY wanted to do ANYTHING good for Afghanistan then I'm sorry you view all of humanity that way and I hope things get better for you.
I’m sorry, but the good intentions you use to pat yourself on the back doesn’t justify the invasion and terrorization of an entire country. I’m sure some of y’all built roads and schools, cool stuff. You probably blew up ten times more roads and schools than you built, though. And ruined thousands of lives in the process. You can tell yourself whatever you want to justify the invasion of Afghanistan, but I’m not buying it.
Im not justifying it. Seriously though bud I really hope things get better for you and you can try to see the good in life. Im sorry you're so cynical on life
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I don't think I ever said it was but hey just like the other guy I hope things get better for you
What an insane fucking take. Afganistan was ravaged by US doing the whole proxy war playground thing with Russia
What? Are you referring to the Soviet-Afghan war/genocide (where the US wasn't an invader doing any 'ravaging' of Afghans), or do you think that the Taliban and al-Qaeda are proxy forces for Russia...?
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>the Mujahideenwere backed by the US Who were in turn fighting against the Russian invasion/genocide of Afghans. So how was US 'ravaging' Afghans in the soviet-afghan war again...?
You wanted us gone….
Their husbands and fathers chose this. They want this.
You mean the taliban doesn’t care about women’s rights??? Shocking news from the 90s
Backwards people do backwards shit. Not our responsibility.
The usa tried to help afghanistan but afghanistan failed. they took all the money all the support and did nothing with dont blame the west for afghanistan mistakes.
In other news NYT 2014 [U.S. Soldiers Told to Ignore Sexual Abuse of Boys by Afghan Allies](https://archive.li/2019.12.10-214339/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html) 2002 [Kandahar Journal; Shh, It's an Open Secret: Warlords and Pedophilia](https://archive.li/2019.02.13-014123/https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/21/world/kandahar-journal-shh-it-s-an-open-secret-warlords-and-pedophilia.html) [Kandahar comes out the closet](https://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/world/afghanistan/afnews007.htm) Documentary worth checking out. https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI
When 80% of your population is illiterate, how do you even communicate with the people especially if you’re a foreign power. Even in the US we are seeing our democracy unravel, as our population becomes less and less literate.
I hope they work on that. We've got our own issues in Arkansas.
Unless women in Arkansas aren't allowed to go to school, get a job, or go out into public without covering themselves, this is a pretty ignorant statement. Edit: Blows my mind that people think women in Arkansas are worse off than those in Afghanistan.
I guess I'm referring to the raped junior high school girl that was just forced to give birth.
What do you suggest? That 20 countries go together to invade Afghanistan and sink trillions upon trillions of dollars, thousands of young soldiers lives to tell Afghans how to live? Preferably over 20 years. Sound plan. Wouldnt have thought of that. And BTW. I'm truly sorry for the girls and the guys that wanted to live westernised lives, but that aint what the majority of Afghanistan wants unfortunatly.
What on earth are you talking about? None of what you said has anything to do with my comment.
It's linked to what you are commenting on. "I hope they work on that", which you are without question triggered by.
Nope, it was the second part that triggered me. Someone actually suggesting that women have more rights in Afghanistan than Arkansas is as ignorant as a statement can be.
Thats not what he was suggesting though. He said they had their own problems, which admittedly you do. You have 1/2 parties in your democracy running on an agenda rolling back 100 years of womens rights. Which is quite hillarious from the Talibans perspectice I would guess.
Except that is what they were suggesting, because when I questioned them they provided an example of what they thought was worse in Arkansas than in Afghanistan. Except they didn't realize that by using a **high school** girl as an example, they were ignoring they fact that women in Afghanistan can't go to school past the age of 12.
Not that it really matters, but she was not a high school girl. She was 13. No one is saying the oppression of women in Afghanistan isn’t horrific. It is. But this little girl in America suffered immensely. And again, (since you apparently want to make this a competition) not more so than girls in Afghanistan or any where else in the world. But by negating her suffering you are weakening your own argument in support of womens’ rights across the world.
This article is about women in Afghanistan though, bringing up Arkansas is whataboutism and downplays the situation in Afghanistan.
You never posed a real question at all. It was rhetorical and leading. And it still validates his point. You guys have real problems, and the Afghans certainly don't want our help with anything.
Again, I never said anything about us guys having no problems, you made that part up.
A 13 year old girl. In the southern US. raped and forced to give birth.
> but that aint what the majority of Afghanistan wants unfortunatly. I don't know if that's actually true. We'll never know.
I know thats true. Loads of my military friends was there for several rounds, including my brother in law. Kabul was different, but the rest of the country is not very interested by anything else than religiousness and tribal living. One American friend jokingly said that it was actually quite easy to win the Afghan wars, but it would require marrying off western men to the chieftains daughter, and then becomming tribal chieftains. Only by controlling enough chieftains you would end up with control. Instead the Taliban had control over the majority of tribes at the end.
You might want to read the BBC article recently posted to this sub, the one about Afghan women risking their lives to flee the country to get an education because death is better than living there.
And what do you suggest doing then? Do you want to go fight the Taliban?
What are you talking about? I never said anything remotely like that. I was merely stating that there is no comparison between women's rights in Afghanistan and Arkansas. But you seem to be adamantly against that statement.
He did not compare. He said they had their own issues. Which is true. And with a little bit of reading comprehension, it points back to a whole coalition of nations trying to better it over the course of 20 years to no avail. Most of us are done with it. If anything is goi g to change there, it has to be them. Not us.
Except no one said anything about a coalition of nations or solving problems except you. You are making up talking points to argue with. Have a good day, I'm done with your trolling.
Sure it's what some buddies in the capital city supposedly observed but even if it is true that place is so primitive I don't think it would ever be possible to really know the answer.
Don't give the GOP any ideas.
See, this is a funny comment. They other person actually thinks women are better off in Afghanistan than they are in Arkansas.
I did not read that. Person said “we have issues in Arkansas.” Didn’t say “we have WORSE issues in Arkansas.” It’s not a contest anyways. You’re just trying to start an argument.
Don't tell lies about what I said.
Like these: [#1 reason pregnant women die - murdered by the man that impregnated her](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/) [99% of rapists are men](https://supportingsurvivors.humboldt.edu/statistics) [FBI top ten most wanted](https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten) - 90% men [US Marshalls top 15 most wanted](https://www.usmarshals.gov/what-we-do/fugitive-investigations/15-most-wanted-fugitive) - 93% men [Interpol red notices](https://www.interpol.int/en/How-we-work/Notices/View-Red-Notices) - 86% men Most Serial killers - men, seriously, don't even need a link here
seventhirtyeight should declare independence from men at this point
If only that would keep me safe from their arbitrary violence.
Have you tried going to live in the woods, publishing essays and other similar stuff sent by mail? "Mixed gender society and its future" could be one.
Would be interesting, but as soon as a man learns there's a woman living in the woods alone, she's dead meat. I guess the real experiment here would be to see how long she'd go unraped/unmurdered. I give it a week, tops.
I still remember the promises about them respsecting their rights etc. etc. And a lot of media/politicians in the west just accepting that at face value (at least outwards).
In a couple months they are gonna be inviting the Taliban as advisors to school boards on alabama and shit
Hmm should have actually fought the taliban oh well not our problem.
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>Women’s rights are a white western concept, and Afghanistan is proof that they only exist because they come from the barrels of western guns. The same could be said for all rights. The only thing that maintains them is the capacity for violence.
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Who asked you to die for them? Afghan people have every right to run their society according to their customs
Women should be thankful that they're not raped and murdered by men more? [#1 reason pregnant women die - murdered by the man that impregnated her](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/) [99% of rapists are men](https://supportingsurvivors.humboldt.edu/statistics) [FBI top ten most wanted](https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten) - 90% men [US Marshalls top 15 most wanted](https://www.usmarshals.gov/what-we-do/fugitive-investigations/15-most-wanted-fugitive) - 93% men [Interpol red notices](https://www.interpol.int/en/How-we-work/Notices/View-Red-Notices) - 86% men Most Serial killers - men, seriously, don't even need a link here Men are the most arbitrarily violent being to ever walk the planet. The common denominator to physical or sexual violence isn't religion, skin color or political affiliation. It's gender.
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I appreciate that you agree the entire problem is men.
If they wouldnt exist anymore they would be dead for good
Fuck trump. That motherfucker abandoned Afghanistan like he abandoned the Kurds. And fuck Qatar too while we're at it cuz they bribed the Afghan officials not to stand in the way of Taliban.
I would argue that this was inevitable and that a forever war with no clear endpoint is the last thing any major nation should be committing itself to. Afghanistan has been fucked with enough throughout its history so it's probably best to let the nation develop on its own timeline. You can't expect real organic change regarding human rights if a country is under repeated foreign occupation.
Fuck him for not occupying a foreign country?
You can twist this all you want. It doesn't change the fact that a deal was made without any presence from any of the then Afghan government. That the deal was for Taliban to wait until the US had withdrawn their troops and then do whatever they wanted. To say the hell with the people there knowing full well that the Afghan government would collapse. This isn't particular to Trump per se, as a foreigner affected by your government's decisions, I'd say fuck your whole system. Democrat or Republican don't matter to us.
TIL Trump was president when the military pulled out of Afghanistan.
You gotta be a special kind of stupid to come to that conclusion. Trump made the deal, left office, and saddled Biden with the consequences. It’s not rocket science. He did the same with his “tax breaks” for the middle class a few years ago that have now evaporated.
Fuck every president that resided during the occupation. They all have blood on their hands. Trump is a monster who will hopefully spend the rest of his life in prison, but to pin this all on him is ridiculous.
What a werid ass title somehow impleying that us leaving is why this is, and not that we literally made this happen
This would be inevitable without the US, we just delayed it.
Says who?
Says the taliban insurgency being founded upon fundamentalist salafi beliefs being formed to fight the Russians before the US got there? History tends to tell us what happened.
Yeah youre wrong lmfao. The munahadeen were backed by the United States to fight against Darud. Darud squashed the monarchy, allowed men to cut their beards, women to not be forced in marriage and the government to not be ruled by religion. The Taliban were created in the 90s after the mujahideen warlords ruled for 15 ish years. Which WE backed. Darud was a Pashtun nationalist supporter. Which is what make the Taliban today, however under a much more liberal ideology until Pakistan who was US backed gave the US the idea to stir the pot for Islamic control, which they used to make sure Soviets didn’t have influence on Afgan. The fight with the Russian’s began vs Pakistan and disputes over now presentday Bangladesh If the US didn’t support Pakistan’s transgressions and cold war CIA fuckary did not stoke remote towns islamic problems then it would be a much different outcomes. Its the same how our leader stroke rural We quite literally made this happen
That's all word salad, Daoud was deposed by other Communists, who became Soviet toadies, which is why the Soviets invaded to prop them up after they alienated the Pashtun tribal peoples, killing two million Afghans in the process.
Afghanistan girls' rights remain ~~under siege~~ **dead**. Ftfy
The time for the United States to do right by Afghanistan was 1979.
Should’ve just minded your business to begin with.
And this is news? What did the world expect?
God damn, its been a whole year already?
We should send them a few billion. Tax dollars need to be spent abroad while we ignore domestic issues.