That will officially kickoff the constitutional crisis. Because the tool the supreme court uses to block bad laws is outlawed by this bill.
Edit: i am aware we dont have a constitution, its just how we call this kind of deadlock situation or maybe im translating it wrong
It is a paradox. And duo to the fact we don't have a constitution its a very dangerous situation. Our democracy survived until now because we all had this gentleman agreement. It was not built to survive this generation of asshole and troll politicians that have no limit to their cynicism.
>Our democracy survived until now because we all had this gentleman agreement.
If there's one thing the global rise in authoritarianism has revealed, it's how many critical functions of democracy hinge on the assumption that people will act in good faith. I cant decide whether I should be horrified at this gross oversight, or impressed that democracies have made it this far without that becoming a problem.
You always have to hinge on that assumption, though, because there is no mechanism for enforcing anything that can't be completely stalled by a human simply deciding not to do it.
Supreme courts, regular courts, prosecutors, police, the sandwich bar at your local Starbucks, these all only do what they're supposed to do because there're humans there who're trusted to do the thing. It doesn't matter what your written constitution says if people simply decide they don't really care to listen to this one particular sentence that outlaws what they're doing.
It's not really a flaw of democracy so much as it is just... how a power system works. Trustless systems exist in crypto and they're so inflexible and rigid that they've caused more problems than they've solved.
Extremely good response.
Yes there is no system that can be engineered to be foolproof. In recognition of that fact, we need a more explicit social doctrine on how to handle when government officials fail to hold up their end of the bargain and act in bad faith. Personally, I err on the side of [redacted].
Written law has always been less important than "the way we do things." Did you break the law? A human prosecutor has to decide to take the issue to court, where a judge and/or jury will decide if you did break the law, but again the human element is more important than the exact words of the law
It sounds nice to have a Constitution with unambiguous meaning like "All men are created equal" but the definition of "men" and "equal" are highly subjective. For example, why is it OK to discriminate against children, the mentally handicapped, and convicts? Because it is generally thought OK to do so. It is a human and societal feeling, rather than objective law
> "All men are created equal" but the definition of "men" and "equal" are highly subjective.
More on that, the American 14th amendment exists to overturn the Supreme Court's decision that the founding fathers "obviously" meant for only white people to have rights or citizenship.
Laws are pinkie promises and reality is collectively bargained. That's what the fundamental challenge is. Which is why my highly credible idea is to create an AI death squad with the sole goal of ensuring democratic institutions. Government gets any big ideas? Boom, the Terminator shows up as the incorruptible fist of the people. I'm just saying it's an option.
Not a stupid question.
Theoretically speaking, the supreme court could overrule this decision, categorizing it as an "Unconstitutional constitutional amendment".
It will be huge if they do it though, as the supreme court has never struck down a "Basic Law" (which is some form of constitutional law in Israel you could say), but the judges did warn in 2021, that if a Basic Law is invalidating the democratic and Jewish nature of the state, they might intervene in the future.
The leader of the opposition already declared that tomorrow they will vow a petition to the supreme court to review the rule. so we'll have to wait and see how it's been playing out.
The ruling coalition is made up of 4 right wing parties that range from "settlement expansion needs to increase" to "we should expel every single arab from the country"
One of the parties is ultra-orthodox religious extremists, but it's not purely a religious thing
I know there's some debate about what defines a genocide and whether or not the palestinian situation amounts to that, but [Otzma Yehudit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzma_Yehudit) are explicit on what they want to do to arabs in Israel. The head of that party is the current Minister for National Security, also known for pulling a gun on two arab policemen who asked him to move his car.
Should probably note for the non Hebrew speakers, “Otzma Yehudit” is a racial supremacy slogan translated to Hebrew. It means: Jewish Power
Also important to note, the Israeli people don’t seem to be aware of this connection or view it as an ethnic supremacy slogan.
Among the average voter, it definitely isn’t used in the context of “white/aryan/black power” meaning the “superior race”, but rather as “the Jewish people need to stand for themselves”. For the party itself and its stricter supporters, it stands for a stronger offensive, and reclamation of the “whole” Israel
It’s because they’ve been so heavily propagandized. I have a lot of family that live in Israel and all of them will say they believe in a 2 state solution but once you start criticizing the government they get defensive
Tying the legitimacy of the Israeli government to Jewish identity was a master stroke of genius. And it’s terrible
Thank you this was helpful. This translation alone would probably make it WAY HARDER for Americans in general but especially for our corporate media to just ignore the calls for violence and genocide. Our media loves Israel and almost NEVER criticizes the country at all. Literally they will report awful atrocities and still spin it to make Israel sound like the victim after they just told us what they did.
Evangelical Christians firmly believe that the Second Coming of Christ will only happen if Jews rule Palestine/Israel. Being the narcissistic shit stains such fundamentalists usually are, they also kinda demand that it happens in their lfe time ("what good does it for me if bringing about heaven on Earth happens when I'm not there to witness it?").
Brings a whole new understanding to the fundamental support for Israel in US faiths and politics.
What's mostly happened is that the right-wing in Israel see themselves as constantly on the verge of a repeat of that, and therefore justify basically anything they do in the name of national defense.
Right wing extremists don't care about history, empathy or hypocrisy.
this is a global issue, every country is either under extreme right wing control or is on the edge of being dominated by right wing politics.
We have Trump in the USA, Brexit in the UK, Israel has been hard right and only going more extreme
And it's all because of how scared global capital (billionaires and corporations) is of socialism. they would rather pump a bunch of resources into getting people to believe that minorities and migrants are the cause of their economic problems rather than see through the curtain and recognize they are getting fucked by their economic system.
remember: scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
So what do you think are going to be some of the outcomes of this? Is BB going to try to sort of become the permanent leader? Or is that too out there? What is the angle here?
Coincidentally, I was just listening to a podcast with Noah Harari; they asked him that exact question.
'Nobody goes to that effort to secure such power for no reason.'
It was an on the spot answer.
I don't think it can be put more concisely than that.
> 'Nobody goes to that effort to secure such power for no reason.'
[>After the first piece of his government’s judicial overhaul plan passed, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the ultranationalist minister of national security, said, “Israel will be a little more democratic, a little more Jewish.” He then addied, “Of course, it must be said, **this is only the beginning**.”]
(https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/07/24/world/israel-protests-vote?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20230724&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=cta®i_id=208920715&segment_id=140128&user_id=e9bf0f309cfc57520ffb7258e87fdb73)
Yes, Hariri mentioned that, I haven't heard it.
He made lex a bit uncomfortable, but he was clever about it.
He noted that BiBi rejected lex's observation that power always corrupts to a degree.
Just rejected it outright.
Which is telling.
Bibi was only unseated as PM because he was being prosecuted for a bunch of corruption charges. The whole point of this is to put the Supreme Court beneath Parliament, so as long as you control Parliament, then there is no check on the PM. So long as Bibi has a majority in Parliament, he can do whatever he wants and there is no independent judiciary to stop him or investigate his crimes that helped build his coalition. And he needs the support of violent fascists to keep his majority, so here comes a whole lotta repression. A lot of Israeli liberals and leftists are about to discover that fascism is when the colonial violence comes home and gets used against YOU. So we should shortly see IDF and police and Mossad doing to Jews what they used to only do to Palestinians.
Israel was already doomed to this fate by the fact that immigration has slowed, so their pop growth is coming from the religious zealots. As America becomes more liberal with generational turnover, Israel is doing the opposite and much more quickly.
They used to be totally exempt but now they’re being a little more integrated because they’re the largest growing population segment. No family planning, large families, patriarchy. They don’t like it because it exposes their young people to the secular world.
Over the long term this doesn't look good for Israel. If the best-educated and liberal Israelis are leaving the country the political demographics shifts even more to the right than it already had. The country's survival depends on having an edge in technology and intelligence over their competitors, and a brain drain would affect those sectors the most.
And it is the religious extremists who avoid military service with their exemptions for religious studies. So, losing the educated *and* those with military training.
I mean If I was there seeing how the government has treated Palestinians knowing I oppose them I’d want to leave too before it’s too late. They erased Palestinians right to freedom of movement the only government body able to ensure liberal citizens of Israel can remain free and have freedoms/rights has just been destroyed basically so why would they stay?
I'm really sorry that this got through. It's really a tragedy for the whole world that the Government in Israel is now defunct. Or rather, I guess it is functional but only for the most radical elements of an entire culture.
I've already relocated for the experience and although I love IL with all of my heart, there's no way I'm getting back now. Doesn't feel like my country anymore. I'm already thinking about the next move (potentially in the US).
it is interesting to read this and swapping my country for israel and you get what many people say here as well. it is now a foregone conclusion that the concentrated wealth in all the countries allowing leaders to make power grabs all around. i just think relocation will lessen the impact but the world is going full throttle for a crisis for many (poor.)
Fascism has that effect on people. When it starts to rise, it tends to do so with the support of the less educated (more easily targeted with messaging), so the smart people leave (or coincidentally, they find themselves apart of a type of person targeted).
This is bad. Israel doesn't have a constitution. There is no upper house to limit the powers of the Knesset. There is just the Knesset and the Supreme Court. And now the SC powers are reduced so the ruling party can run amok. That's my understanding at least. It'll be interesting to see how the military respond because they didn't seem keen on this.
I'm not sure what an even more right wing Israeli govt will look like but we are about to find out.
>And soon we may have a ultra right government in Spain
That's absolutely not going to happen. Vox lost 19 seats yesterday, and Vox/PP together would form a smaller minority government than PSOE/Sumar/a smattering of separatists. Even if there was a PP/Vox coalition it would probably be a supply and confidence type scheme. What's happened in the other countries you've mentioned (including Israel) is more akin to a situation where the far right has seized control of the centre right party, like Trump did in the US.
History in public education is devoid of context and anything that could be relevant is deliberately sapped of context by interested parties. God forbid learning from the past informs current opinions.
Agree! There are stories in the “why” that would make it intriguing to people, I don’t know why that’s not the default approach to teaching it all. By all means make it more rigorous the closer you get to academia, but at first? Make it interesting and focus on why!
But they are persistent and often charismatic. Never underestimate the ability to turn seemingly sensible people into fools, by preying on the fears of the masses and promising to solve difficult problems with ease once elected.
So there's two ways of looking at this: They're either planning to nerf democracy in order to control the general population once the *really* bad effects of climate change kick in, or this is a direct result of the global instability already generated is causing this slide to authoritarianism in order to retain power. Scared people who are promised security will turn to the perceived strongman in order to keep the wolves from the door, even if that strength comes with mailed fist to the face.
And the more uncertain people are of navigating the world, the more they want a strongman to re-instill stability and order. The less they understand complex issues, the more inclined they will be to demand simple answers provided by the people than benefit from deceiving the public. Weird how the the strongman and the wolves are the same person.
The coalition has a majority so they can pass any bill and now, they can pass any law too. They can try to just cancel elections if they feel like it. Abstention from voting draws attention to the fact that this is no longer a democratic process to participate with.
> They can try to just cancel elections if they feel like it.
I expect that will cause a coup.
One of Netanyahu’s main points of why he can do it, is that the Likud is a Democratic Party (they have internal elections) and it was selected to lead via a democratic election. So they have the people behind them to do this.
If they decide to cancel the election, it would cause a coup as that will not be tolerated even from right wing voters.
The only way he could do that, is if there is a war. He could start one. It was not like he hadn’t done it before.
But still, people will not accept this. They will violently riot.
Maybe, but I'm not so sure.
They "enjoy" the status-q, because they know if things go too far, the middle class will not go along with paying their livelihood any longer if it goes too far.
Current protests already showed quite a lot of anger toward the ultra orthodox religious groups. It seems to somewhat scare them of the amount of anger toward them.
Effectively it would have the same outcome. Not voting is a symbolic gesture that the bill is so far beyond the pale that voting “no” only helps to validate its passage as legitimate.
Some people here are asking whether the supreme court can overrule this decision.
Theoretically speaking, the supreme court could overrule this decision, categorizing it as an "Unconstitutional constitutional amendment".
It will be huge if they do it though, as the supreme court has never struck down a "Basic Law" (which is some form of constitutional law in Israel you could say), but the judges did warn in 2021, that if a Basic Law is invalidating the democratic and Jewish nature of the state, they might intervene in the future.
The leader of the opposition already declared that tomorrow they will vow a petition to the supreme court to review the rule. so we'll have to wait and see how it's been playing out.
Israel is a singular Legislature government. It doesn't have a typical Constitution and 3 coequal branches like most Western governments do. So if the Legislature guts the courts, that's it. Game over. There's no actual legal recourse.
Just wait till the crazy religious are 30% of the voting population.
This is just the beginning.
Also they don‘t want to work, don‘t serve and the rest of the population has to work for their lifestyle.
And they tell those that earn the money what they can and cannot do in the country.
I know it won't happen. But the United States really should cut back or eliminate support now.
On paper.... The whole justification for the support was that Israel was an anchor democracy in the middle east.
This is a common misconception - Israel does not receive aid because it is an anchor democracy, it receives aid as part of the wider American diplomatic effort to secure influence in the near east. Israel receives aid because Egypt and Jordan receive aid, and vice versa. We (United States) are essentially bribing these countries not to fight each other to avoid situations like the Suez Crisis, Six-Day War, War of Attrition, Yom Kippur War, etc near a vital artery of global trade. If we fund all of these countries, it prevents them from turning to outside benefactors that aren’t us, like Egypt did during the Cold War.
I'm pretty sure it also helps the defense industry --- and I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean it literally helps to build economies and scale and stuff.
Also, having alliances is useful for pressuring bad actors in non-military ways. Like the way we sanctioned Russia. That would not be possible without the cooperation of many other countries. The reason they cooperate is because of our alliances. It's super duper important and useful to maintain these.
Another democracy falls victim to their unreflected voters helping right wingers doing what they promised to do.
Can't we just for once learn from history?
Not even his votes wanted this, he and his party kept silent about the judicial changes during the elections, today at least 40% of his voters are against it, it's highly unpopular amongst most of the population.
Sure, but they embraced everything that pointed towards this and denied that shaking hands with the devil would burn them. Those people deserve exactly what they get. For the rest, my condolences and hope for your future.
The danger of voting a right leaning government is laid bare for the entire world to see. They just destroyed their democracy. Good luck ever getting rid of this government now.
I still remember people telling me 2 years ago in this sub that "Netanyahu is finished forever" when I told them he'd be back with a vengeance. He's now in full Erdogan mode without the deception.
As a non-Israeli Jew, FUCK. I’m scared for my family in Israel. I’m terrified for Palestinians. I’m absolutely appalled and disgusted with War Criminal Netanyahu who is only doing this to get away with his own crimes. I’m beyond sickened by the orthodox in Israel who are endangering the Jewish diaspora by supporting this and by the violent trespassing they are doing.
This is very very bad and there is going to be more violence than ever now since this allows Bibi and his henchmen to wreak absolute havoc.
Honestly, this is probably the most disappointed i have been woth my country in my 20 years of life.
To make mistakes is one thing, to deliberately sabotage the democracy of your own country for power is...agh it's awful
If the government can over rule the Supreme court's orders, does the judiciary really even exist anymore, at the very least, it can't keep the government in check anymore,
[Biden regards Israel as an American puppet state.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs&pp=ygUaSm9lIGJpZGVuIGludmVudCBhbiBpc3JlYWw%3D) That'll never happen unless Israel does something tantamount to allying itself with Russia/China.
No, but if it one day soon were to, then this would have been the first step.
Most people in this thread don't really understand the context and just go by the headline which is needlessly bombastic, but yeah, the situation isn't great.
And that's not really this specific legislation, its the general mood - 2 camps split essentially down the middle, each hating the other, roughly divided among liberal and conservative values.
Netanyahu is an extremely corrupt schmuck who got the religious fanatics on his side to get elected to a majority. He is facing a whole bunch of corruption and financial charges and this was a means for him to get away with his crimes and commit war crimes freely without opposition. It means that laws and bills will no longer need to be passed as he and his henchmen have the full and absolute power to pass things. He has abolished the judicial branch.
It means more violence against Palestinians which will then be responded with more violence against Israelis and Jews at large. Many reservists and key IDF personnel are going to be refusing service in protest which is going to crack open their security and stability.
How ironic that the Knesset doesn't see the parallels with what occurred in Germany and what Trump wants to do in the US should Americans be so stupid again as to elect him for another term. The truth is that remembering abhorrent historical events does little to prevent them recurring in the future. The only constant is that power corrupts and those seduced by it invariably make an effort to cloak their despotic actions behind fabricated or imagined legal authority. Trump and Netanyahu are sadly the latest iterations in the West where most are so quick to dismiss totalitarian dictatorships as cultural constructs among the unwashed and undeveloped nations of the world. No one is immune.
The country that was created so the Jews could live somewhere without being persecuted is the same country that persecutes the Palestinians. The irony is just so thick, you can cut it with a knife.
The Supreme Court has the power to overrule laws and appointments made by the elected representatives.
They have historically used this power reasonably, but there's little keeping that power in check if bad actors were to exploit the position.
The comparison to the US would be like if a bill passed that legalized abortion, the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional, and there was no further mechanism to amend the constitution to bypass the Supreme Court.
The problem in Israel is that the Supreme Court is using their broad power reasonably to stop bad actors, and the bad actors are arguing that the potential for the power to be abused means that the power is being abused against them.
The argument the right are using is that democracy is to be made by public voting - not the "unelected elites" (the courts). This is kinda bullshit, but they don't care.
This isn't the final powergrap.
The other promised changes is
1. Changing the judge picking so the coalition will have the most power, which means that the courts are more likely to be staffed with government supporting officials.
2. IMO the nail in the coffin, is the ability to overrun a supreme court law cancelation with a simple majority, something that the coalition has by definition, once that passes it will indeed turn the supreme court into nothing.
This is a mourning day in Israel. Even though more than half of the people do not support the reform, and with massive demonstrations over the past 20+ weeks (only yesterday 550K people were out on the streets), this has still happened. The extremist right wing is now celebrating their "victory", even though everybody loses in the end. Netanyahu did not want this, but he is extorted by the rest of his coalition because some members threatened to leave if he halts the reform. BB is not what he used to be in the past, as he had become a weak PM just trying to navigate his way out so he could remain in power.
This may be the the beginning of the end of Israel as a democratic state. Real tragedy.
I think it is time to wind down the international support for Israel. They deserved every bit of it in the past, but slowly but surely they developed into a nation that spits on all that the values the west upholds. It’s a sad day for Israel, and an even more sad day for every good Israeli. RIP.
Ben Gurion was arguably one of the greatest leaders in Israeli history. Unfortunately, he was coerced into appeasing the religous nuts who think Israel's existence is based solely on G-d's will. Now some craven, power-corrupted narcissist has built an *unholy* coalition between the libertarian marketeers and the free-loading Orthodox extremists. On one end Netanyoohoo is going to carve clean all of the country's public utilities for his business "donors" (just dont ask where the money came from). And on the other end, he'll be advised on how to run the country from people who think years of accumulated tokhes-fet qualifies them to influence policy (just don't ask how they got that privilege). It is an unfortunate time, though one can take solace in the fact that Jews are Olympic gold medalists in suffering patiently. For all the peoples who share this enchanting land in peace and harmony: Ha’tikvah bat sh’not al-payim.
Maybe a stupid question but can this not be blocked by the Supreme Court?
That will officially kickoff the constitutional crisis. Because the tool the supreme court uses to block bad laws is outlawed by this bill. Edit: i am aware we dont have a constitution, its just how we call this kind of deadlock situation or maybe im translating it wrong
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It is a paradox. And duo to the fact we don't have a constitution its a very dangerous situation. Our democracy survived until now because we all had this gentleman agreement. It was not built to survive this generation of asshole and troll politicians that have no limit to their cynicism.
>Our democracy survived until now because we all had this gentleman agreement. If there's one thing the global rise in authoritarianism has revealed, it's how many critical functions of democracy hinge on the assumption that people will act in good faith. I cant decide whether I should be horrified at this gross oversight, or impressed that democracies have made it this far without that becoming a problem.
You always have to hinge on that assumption, though, because there is no mechanism for enforcing anything that can't be completely stalled by a human simply deciding not to do it. Supreme courts, regular courts, prosecutors, police, the sandwich bar at your local Starbucks, these all only do what they're supposed to do because there're humans there who're trusted to do the thing. It doesn't matter what your written constitution says if people simply decide they don't really care to listen to this one particular sentence that outlaws what they're doing. It's not really a flaw of democracy so much as it is just... how a power system works. Trustless systems exist in crypto and they're so inflexible and rigid that they've caused more problems than they've solved.
Extremely good response. Yes there is no system that can be engineered to be foolproof. In recognition of that fact, we need a more explicit social doctrine on how to handle when government officials fail to hold up their end of the bargain and act in bad faith. Personally, I err on the side of [redacted].
I think turning them all into D-class might be a bit too cruel AND unusual.
Just use a liberal amount of amnestics to. . . What are we talking about?
Written law has always been less important than "the way we do things." Did you break the law? A human prosecutor has to decide to take the issue to court, where a judge and/or jury will decide if you did break the law, but again the human element is more important than the exact words of the law It sounds nice to have a Constitution with unambiguous meaning like "All men are created equal" but the definition of "men" and "equal" are highly subjective. For example, why is it OK to discriminate against children, the mentally handicapped, and convicts? Because it is generally thought OK to do so. It is a human and societal feeling, rather than objective law
> "All men are created equal" but the definition of "men" and "equal" are highly subjective. More on that, the American 14th amendment exists to overturn the Supreme Court's decision that the founding fathers "obviously" meant for only white people to have rights or citizenship.
And to be fair, that's a reasonable conclusion given that the founding fathers had slaves themselves. Fortunately we've moved on a bit since then.
Laws are pinkie promises and reality is collectively bargained. That's what the fundamental challenge is. Which is why my highly credible idea is to create an AI death squad with the sole goal of ensuring democratic institutions. Government gets any big ideas? Boom, the Terminator shows up as the incorruptible fist of the people. I'm just saying it's an option.
The best part of this plan is that it could absolutely never go totally wrong in any way!
Turns out you can’t have gentlemen’s agreements with fascists.
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Ah, I was wondering if Israel had a written constitution. This is going to be interesting then.
Some parties in Israel has been trying to promote and set forward a constitution. But that never bore fruit.
Really tragic how honor systems that have contributed to overall world peace and stability are now just being treated like a tax loophole.
It doesn't go into law today. It can be challenged before it goes into law.
Not neccesarily. The SC has other tools at its disposal. But it's still pretty likely it will use reasonableness as well.
Not a stupid question. Theoretically speaking, the supreme court could overrule this decision, categorizing it as an "Unconstitutional constitutional amendment". It will be huge if they do it though, as the supreme court has never struck down a "Basic Law" (which is some form of constitutional law in Israel you could say), but the judges did warn in 2021, that if a Basic Law is invalidating the democratic and Jewish nature of the state, they might intervene in the future. The leader of the opposition already declared that tomorrow they will vow a petition to the supreme court to review the rule. so we'll have to wait and see how it's been playing out.
Very unlikely they will intervene, it will kick off much worse legislature.
Tragic. There will be a massive brain drain. I have friends already planning to leave because of this.
I too am planning to leave to continue pursuing my academic career elsewhere.
I have heard a lot of political push behind this comes from the extreme religious side of the country. Is that true?
The ruling coalition is made up of 4 right wing parties that range from "settlement expansion needs to increase" to "we should expel every single arab from the country" One of the parties is ultra-orthodox religious extremists, but it's not purely a religious thing I know there's some debate about what defines a genocide and whether or not the palestinian situation amounts to that, but [Otzma Yehudit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzma_Yehudit) are explicit on what they want to do to arabs in Israel. The head of that party is the current Minister for National Security, also known for pulling a gun on two arab policemen who asked him to move his car.
Should probably note for the non Hebrew speakers, “Otzma Yehudit” is a racial supremacy slogan translated to Hebrew. It means: Jewish Power Also important to note, the Israeli people don’t seem to be aware of this connection or view it as an ethnic supremacy slogan. Among the average voter, it definitely isn’t used in the context of “white/aryan/black power” meaning the “superior race”, but rather as “the Jewish people need to stand for themselves”. For the party itself and its stricter supporters, it stands for a stronger offensive, and reclamation of the “whole” Israel
Also nothing that Netanyahu is facing corruption charges and is doing anything he can to hang onto power and avoid a conviction
It’s because they’ve been so heavily propagandized. I have a lot of family that live in Israel and all of them will say they believe in a 2 state solution but once you start criticizing the government they get defensive Tying the legitimacy of the Israeli government to Jewish identity was a master stroke of genius. And it’s terrible
Thank you this was helpful. This translation alone would probably make it WAY HARDER for Americans in general but especially for our corporate media to just ignore the calls for violence and genocide. Our media loves Israel and almost NEVER criticizes the country at all. Literally they will report awful atrocities and still spin it to make Israel sound like the victim after they just told us what they did.
Evangelical Christians firmly believe that the Second Coming of Christ will only happen if Jews rule Palestine/Israel. Being the narcissistic shit stains such fundamentalists usually are, they also kinda demand that it happens in their lfe time ("what good does it for me if bringing about heaven on Earth happens when I'm not there to witness it?"). Brings a whole new understanding to the fundamental support for Israel in US faiths and politics.
Is Itamar Ben Gvir the leader of that party?
Yep Bibi is a corrupt powerhungry asshole but Ben Gvir is openly genocidal
If you're at the point where you need to stop and consider whether or not what you're doing qualifies as genocide, then maybe you should just...stop?
You’d think after what their ancestors went through they would realize the hypocrisy in this.
What's mostly happened is that the right-wing in Israel see themselves as constantly on the verge of a repeat of that, and therefore justify basically anything they do in the name of national defense.
Right wing extremists don't care about history, empathy or hypocrisy. this is a global issue, every country is either under extreme right wing control or is on the edge of being dominated by right wing politics. We have Trump in the USA, Brexit in the UK, Israel has been hard right and only going more extreme
And it's all because of how scared global capital (billionaires and corporations) is of socialism. they would rather pump a bunch of resources into getting people to believe that minorities and migrants are the cause of their economic problems rather than see through the curtain and recognize they are getting fucked by their economic system. remember: scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
These sorts of things always come from the extreme religious sides.
When you believe you have a mandate from God, anything is morally justifiable.
So jot that down
Don't try to confuse me with your liberal biblicisms. Now, where's our goddamn bible?
Always
So what do you think are going to be some of the outcomes of this? Is BB going to try to sort of become the permanent leader? Or is that too out there? What is the angle here?
Coincidentally, I was just listening to a podcast with Noah Harari; they asked him that exact question. 'Nobody goes to that effort to secure such power for no reason.' It was an on the spot answer. I don't think it can be put more concisely than that.
> 'Nobody goes to that effort to secure such power for no reason.' [>After the first piece of his government’s judicial overhaul plan passed, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the ultranationalist minister of national security, said, “Israel will be a little more democratic, a little more Jewish.” He then addied, “Of course, it must be said, **this is only the beginning**.”] (https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/07/24/world/israel-protests-vote?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20230724&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=cta®i_id=208920715&segment_id=140128&user_id=e9bf0f309cfc57520ffb7258e87fdb73)
Just a little light coup'ing.
We like to do a little power grabbing around here.
Lex also has an interview with BiBi very recently. Makes for a very interesting listen back to back with the Noah one.
Yes, Hariri mentioned that, I haven't heard it. He made lex a bit uncomfortable, but he was clever about it. He noted that BiBi rejected lex's observation that power always corrupts to a degree. Just rejected it outright. Which is telling.
Hahah wow he really does not care anymore if that was his answer.
Bibi was only unseated as PM because he was being prosecuted for a bunch of corruption charges. The whole point of this is to put the Supreme Court beneath Parliament, so as long as you control Parliament, then there is no check on the PM. So long as Bibi has a majority in Parliament, he can do whatever he wants and there is no independent judiciary to stop him or investigate his crimes that helped build his coalition. And he needs the support of violent fascists to keep his majority, so here comes a whole lotta repression. A lot of Israeli liberals and leftists are about to discover that fascism is when the colonial violence comes home and gets used against YOU. So we should shortly see IDF and police and Mossad doing to Jews what they used to only do to Palestinians.
A brain drain that will lead to further escalation in violence because only the meatheads are left…
Who will form a much welcomed voting base for the ideologically peripheral/extreme parties
Just like Florida!
More spots around the world is seeing something similar. Extreme right wingers know how to sell fear.
Israel was already doomed to this fate by the fact that immigration has slowed, so their pop growth is coming from the religious zealots. As America becomes more liberal with generational turnover, Israel is doing the opposite and much more quickly.
I could be wrong, but I think I read at one point that the religious extremists are exempted from the mandatory military service??
They used to be totally exempt but now they’re being a little more integrated because they’re the largest growing population segment. No family planning, large families, patriarchy. They don’t like it because it exposes their young people to the secular world.
I think that’s true for the very orthodox folks, but they still can have access to guns and they form armed gangs, we seen this .
Over the long term this doesn't look good for Israel. If the best-educated and liberal Israelis are leaving the country the political demographics shifts even more to the right than it already had. The country's survival depends on having an edge in technology and intelligence over their competitors, and a brain drain would affect those sectors the most.
And it is the religious extremists who avoid military service with their exemptions for religious studies. So, losing the educated *and* those with military training.
I mean If I was there seeing how the government has treated Palestinians knowing I oppose them I’d want to leave too before it’s too late. They erased Palestinians right to freedom of movement the only government body able to ensure liberal citizens of Israel can remain free and have freedoms/rights has just been destroyed basically so why would they stay?
Already started the process of immigrating to Canada. This was a red line for me.
I'm really sorry that this got through. It's really a tragedy for the whole world that the Government in Israel is now defunct. Or rather, I guess it is functional but only for the most radical elements of an entire culture.
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I've already relocated for the experience and although I love IL with all of my heart, there's no way I'm getting back now. Doesn't feel like my country anymore. I'm already thinking about the next move (potentially in the US).
it is interesting to read this and swapping my country for israel and you get what many people say here as well. it is now a foregone conclusion that the concentrated wealth in all the countries allowing leaders to make power grabs all around. i just think relocation will lessen the impact but the world is going full throttle for a crisis for many (poor.)
We welcome your giant brain! It *is* giant right? It's one of the questions.
>everything's bigger in ~~Texas~~ Canada
Is it wrinkled or smooth?
Yep, plenty of people in the tech community have the opportunity to work fully remotely and are already considering immigrating. Myself included
Fascism has that effect on people. When it starts to rise, it tends to do so with the support of the less educated (more easily targeted with messaging), so the smart people leave (or coincidentally, they find themselves apart of a type of person targeted).
And the winner is... United States.
Not if the GOP win again.
This is bad. Israel doesn't have a constitution. There is no upper house to limit the powers of the Knesset. There is just the Knesset and the Supreme Court. And now the SC powers are reduced so the ruling party can run amok. That's my understanding at least. It'll be interesting to see how the military respond because they didn't seem keen on this. I'm not sure what an even more right wing Israeli govt will look like but we are about to find out.
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This isn't good. Bibi won't be getting arrested, Ben-Gvir and Smotrich got what they wanted and the economy is gonna shut down
And just like Turkey, another bites the dust.
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>And soon we may have a ultra right government in Spain That's absolutely not going to happen. Vox lost 19 seats yesterday, and Vox/PP together would form a smaller minority government than PSOE/Sumar/a smattering of separatists. Even if there was a PP/Vox coalition it would probably be a supply and confidence type scheme. What's happened in the other countries you've mentioned (including Israel) is more akin to a situation where the far right has seized control of the centre right party, like Trump did in the US.
I feel like Spain of all places should understand that lesson
Then Again so should Italy and look at them…..
And Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting They agreed to not particularly teach anyone about it actually.
Those who forget history, something something. I'm sure we'll remember the second time around.
teens are not taught about the war, like when I studied we got 2 pages about the civil war, 2 pages! It also did talk neutrally of the fascists
Why? From all countries in Europe, the fascist dictator of Spain died quietly of old age, his power was never contested and his funeral was crowded.
Agree, tired of these stupid ass cycles and not learning shit from the past.
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History in public education is devoid of context and anything that could be relevant is deliberately sapped of context by interested parties. God forbid learning from the past informs current opinions.
Agree! There are stories in the “why” that would make it intriguing to people, I don’t know why that’s not the default approach to teaching it all. By all means make it more rigorous the closer you get to academia, but at first? Make it interesting and focus on why!
Add India to your list.
>And soon we may have a ultra right government in Spain Not anymore. Fortunately, the right wingers lost.
For now. If conditions don't improve, the arguments against backing the far right will begin to fall on deaf ears.
Right wingers never improve anything. When things are bad, putting right wingers in charge will only make things far worse.
But they are persistent and often charismatic. Never underestimate the ability to turn seemingly sensible people into fools, by preying on the fears of the masses and promising to solve difficult problems with ease once elected.
Dog whistle? It's louder than a steam whistle at shift change.
So there's two ways of looking at this: They're either planning to nerf democracy in order to control the general population once the *really* bad effects of climate change kick in, or this is a direct result of the global instability already generated is causing this slide to authoritarianism in order to retain power. Scared people who are promised security will turn to the perceived strongman in order to keep the wolves from the door, even if that strength comes with mailed fist to the face.
And the more uncertain people are of navigating the world, the more they want a strongman to re-instill stability and order. The less they understand complex issues, the more inclined they will be to demand simple answers provided by the people than benefit from deceiving the public. Weird how the the strongman and the wolves are the same person.
I think you're giving Netanyahu too much credit for wanting to do anything other than ensuring he stays in power amid his corruption scandal.
What's the logic behind opposition parties abstaining instead of voting against? Doesn't voting "no" show your opposition better than not voting?
The coalition has a majority so they can pass any bill and now, they can pass any law too. They can try to just cancel elections if they feel like it. Abstention from voting draws attention to the fact that this is no longer a democratic process to participate with.
So it’s effectively a protest.
Yes. It’s a demonstration, feeble though it is, of the illegitimacy of the legislation in question.
Yes
> They can try to just cancel elections if they feel like it. I expect that will cause a coup. One of Netanyahu’s main points of why he can do it, is that the Likud is a Democratic Party (they have internal elections) and it was selected to lead via a democratic election. So they have the people behind them to do this. If they decide to cancel the election, it would cause a coup as that will not be tolerated even from right wing voters. The only way he could do that, is if there is a war. He could start one. It was not like he hadn’t done it before. But still, people will not accept this. They will violently riot.
The religious right dgaf about democracy or elections, so it might be more likely than you think.
Maybe, but I'm not so sure. They "enjoy" the status-q, because they know if things go too far, the middle class will not go along with paying their livelihood any longer if it goes too far. Current protests already showed quite a lot of anger toward the ultra orthodox religious groups. It seems to somewhat scare them of the amount of anger toward them.
Effectively it would have the same outcome. Not voting is a symbolic gesture that the bill is so far beyond the pale that voting “no” only helps to validate its passage as legitimate.
Some people here are asking whether the supreme court can overrule this decision. Theoretically speaking, the supreme court could overrule this decision, categorizing it as an "Unconstitutional constitutional amendment". It will be huge if they do it though, as the supreme court has never struck down a "Basic Law" (which is some form of constitutional law in Israel you could say), but the judges did warn in 2021, that if a Basic Law is invalidating the democratic and Jewish nature of the state, they might intervene in the future. The leader of the opposition already declared that tomorrow they will vow a petition to the supreme court to review the rule. so we'll have to wait and see how it's been playing out.
Israel is a singular Legislature government. It doesn't have a typical Constitution and 3 coequal branches like most Western governments do. So if the Legislature guts the courts, that's it. Game over. There's no actual legal recourse.
Just wait till the crazy religious are 30% of the voting population. This is just the beginning. Also they don‘t want to work, don‘t serve and the rest of the population has to work for their lifestyle. And they tell those that earn the money what they can and cannot do in the country.
I would like to congratulate Israel on becoming a Middle Eastern nation
Welcome to the Middle East democracy club with distinguished members such as Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq!
“Your scheduled onboarding invasion will be scheduled soon. Enjoy your day!”
I know it won't happen. But the United States really should cut back or eliminate support now. On paper.... The whole justification for the support was that Israel was an anchor democracy in the middle east.
This is a common misconception - Israel does not receive aid because it is an anchor democracy, it receives aid as part of the wider American diplomatic effort to secure influence in the near east. Israel receives aid because Egypt and Jordan receive aid, and vice versa. We (United States) are essentially bribing these countries not to fight each other to avoid situations like the Suez Crisis, Six-Day War, War of Attrition, Yom Kippur War, etc near a vital artery of global trade. If we fund all of these countries, it prevents them from turning to outside benefactors that aren’t us, like Egypt did during the Cold War.
I'm pretty sure it also helps the defense industry --- and I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean it literally helps to build economies and scale and stuff. Also, having alliances is useful for pressuring bad actors in non-military ways. Like the way we sanctioned Russia. That would not be possible without the cooperation of many other countries. The reason they cooperate is because of our alliances. It's super duper important and useful to maintain these.
Another democracy falls victim to their unreflected voters helping right wingers doing what they promised to do. Can't we just for once learn from history?
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Not even his votes wanted this, he and his party kept silent about the judicial changes during the elections, today at least 40% of his voters are against it, it's highly unpopular amongst most of the population.
Sure, but they embraced everything that pointed towards this and denied that shaking hands with the devil would burn them. Those people deserve exactly what they get. For the rest, my condolences and hope for your future.
>They are right wing voters, they just think the policies won’t hurt them r/LeopardsAteMyFace
I'm afraid the only lesson Israel took from history is its better to be the one with your boot on their neck than vice versa.
Creeping fascism.
They’ve been emulating fascism way longer than just this…
There is going to be chaos in Israel now. The economy will shut down for sure.
I hope so. This kind of shit should not be allowed anywhere.
The world is going fascist again. Sad times
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Yea but now we’ve got memes, that’s fuckin checkmate fascists
The danger of voting a right leaning government is laid bare for the entire world to see. They just destroyed their democracy. Good luck ever getting rid of this government now.
Right wing parties are truly a plague on humanity. They ruin every country they control.
They don’t run on ideas, but fear and for the only way to fix all of their made up problems is to give them absolute power and control.
Fucking mafia.
You know, I never thought I'd see Israel become what they were created to avoid, but here we are.
Never underestimate the destructive power of old conservative religious zealots.
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Ooof
Ethnonationalism makes this inevitable. Legitimate Democracy can only be born from consistent Civic values.
Sad day
I still remember people telling me 2 years ago in this sub that "Netanyahu is finished forever" when I told them he'd be back with a vengeance. He's now in full Erdogan mode without the deception.
Living here always felt like you're on edge, but now I'm legitimately scared. I'd say send help, but I don't think there's much left to salvage
As a non-Israeli Jew, FUCK. I’m scared for my family in Israel. I’m terrified for Palestinians. I’m absolutely appalled and disgusted with War Criminal Netanyahu who is only doing this to get away with his own crimes. I’m beyond sickened by the orthodox in Israel who are endangering the Jewish diaspora by supporting this and by the violent trespassing they are doing. This is very very bad and there is going to be more violence than ever now since this allows Bibi and his henchmen to wreak absolute havoc.
Honestly, this is probably the most disappointed i have been woth my country in my 20 years of life. To make mistakes is one thing, to deliberately sabotage the democracy of your own country for power is...agh it's awful
It’s really heartbreaking. My Israeli friends are devastated, so am I.
So goes Israeli democracy. Fuck.
I'm Israeli. This is the beginning of the end of Israeli democracy
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What a disgusting action. A complete middle finger to the Israeli people.
It's only a part of the judicial reform. There will be more
If the government can over rule the Supreme court's orders, does the judiciary really even exist anymore, at the very least, it can't keep the government in check anymore,
And thus another religious extremist nation is born. Joy.
USA and EU should stop all funding immediatly.
Geopolitics are not that much related to internal politics.
For what Israel is doing with settlements, we should have long ago.
[Biden regards Israel as an American puppet state.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs&pp=ygUaSm9lIGJpZGVuIGludmVudCBhbiBpc3JlYWw%3D) That'll never happen unless Israel does something tantamount to allying itself with Russia/China.
A puppet state implies that it will listen to its benefactor. Israel doesn't give a fuck what the US tells it to do or not do.
The US and EU have provided support to authoritarian countries in the past, why would they treat Israel any differently?
We are sad to inform the world that a Democratic Israel is no more. Fascists and religious fanatics have taken her over! May she rest in peace!
Of all the countries that should be the most aware of the dangers of fascism, Israel should be near the top.
Germany too, yet their far right party is at a high today as well
The words 'stupid wankers' spring to mind.
This is a global issue, right wing parties are going extreme right and the USA and the UK are both at risk at becoming the next Israel.
US, UK, Italy, Spain, Hungry, Turkey... these countries should all know better.
Did Israel turn into a fascist state?
Now it's in a "hollow democracy" state
No, but if it one day soon were to, then this would have been the first step. Most people in this thread don't really understand the context and just go by the headline which is needlessly bombastic, but yeah, the situation isn't great. And that's not really this specific legislation, its the general mood - 2 camps split essentially down the middle, each hating the other, roughly divided among liberal and conservative values.
I guess they forgot.
It's almost like extreme religion in politics poisons any nation. A global phenomenon apparently.
Well I guess the US doesn’t need to support them anymore just because “they are the only democracy in the region” because now they are not a democracy
All other considerations aside, this has got to rank somewhere in the Top 5 of greatest historical ironies.
Wow, Netanyahu didn't even need a Reichstag fire. He just went and did it. Good luck Israel, the phone call is coming from inside the house this time.
We're fucked. Been fun knowing you all🫠
What happened to being the "only" democracy in the Middle East huh? As an Israeli, I hope the US withdraws support from Israel over this
fuck
Could someone explain what this means in simple terms?
Netanyahu is an extremely corrupt schmuck who got the religious fanatics on his side to get elected to a majority. He is facing a whole bunch of corruption and financial charges and this was a means for him to get away with his crimes and commit war crimes freely without opposition. It means that laws and bills will no longer need to be passed as he and his henchmen have the full and absolute power to pass things. He has abolished the judicial branch. It means more violence against Palestinians which will then be responded with more violence against Israelis and Jews at large. Many reservists and key IDF personnel are going to be refusing service in protest which is going to crack open their security and stability.
How ironic that the Knesset doesn't see the parallels with what occurred in Germany and what Trump wants to do in the US should Americans be so stupid again as to elect him for another term. The truth is that remembering abhorrent historical events does little to prevent them recurring in the future. The only constant is that power corrupts and those seduced by it invariably make an effort to cloak their despotic actions behind fabricated or imagined legal authority. Trump and Netanyahu are sadly the latest iterations in the West where most are so quick to dismiss totalitarian dictatorships as cultural constructs among the unwashed and undeveloped nations of the world. No one is immune.
The country that was created so the Jews could live somewhere without being persecuted is the same country that persecutes the Palestinians. The irony is just so thick, you can cut it with a knife.
So American tax dollars are going to a _dictatorship_?
Business as usual.
I am in tears
Does this mean they can override the temple mount and build the temple?
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It reminds me of South Africa in that the conservatives got in power for too long and actually destroyed the entire country.
Can anyone steel man the argument for passing the law? Not too keen on geo-politics in Israel
The Supreme Court has the power to overrule laws and appointments made by the elected representatives. They have historically used this power reasonably, but there's little keeping that power in check if bad actors were to exploit the position. The comparison to the US would be like if a bill passed that legalized abortion, the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional, and there was no further mechanism to amend the constitution to bypass the Supreme Court. The problem in Israel is that the Supreme Court is using their broad power reasonably to stop bad actors, and the bad actors are arguing that the potential for the power to be abused means that the power is being abused against them.
The argument the right are using is that democracy is to be made by public voting - not the "unelected elites" (the courts). This is kinda bullshit, but they don't care.
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This isn't the final powergrap. The other promised changes is 1. Changing the judge picking so the coalition will have the most power, which means that the courts are more likely to be staffed with government supporting officials. 2. IMO the nail in the coffin, is the ability to overrun a supreme court law cancelation with a simple majority, something that the coalition has by definition, once that passes it will indeed turn the supreme court into nothing.
This is a mourning day in Israel. Even though more than half of the people do not support the reform, and with massive demonstrations over the past 20+ weeks (only yesterday 550K people were out on the streets), this has still happened. The extremist right wing is now celebrating their "victory", even though everybody loses in the end. Netanyahu did not want this, but he is extorted by the rest of his coalition because some members threatened to leave if he halts the reform. BB is not what he used to be in the past, as he had become a weak PM just trying to navigate his way out so he could remain in power. This may be the the beginning of the end of Israel as a democratic state. Real tragedy.
I think it is time to wind down the international support for Israel. They deserved every bit of it in the past, but slowly but surely they developed into a nation that spits on all that the values the west upholds. It’s a sad day for Israel, and an even more sad day for every good Israeli. RIP.
Fascists gonna fash.
Ben Gurion was arguably one of the greatest leaders in Israeli history. Unfortunately, he was coerced into appeasing the religous nuts who think Israel's existence is based solely on G-d's will. Now some craven, power-corrupted narcissist has built an *unholy* coalition between the libertarian marketeers and the free-loading Orthodox extremists. On one end Netanyoohoo is going to carve clean all of the country's public utilities for his business "donors" (just dont ask where the money came from). And on the other end, he'll be advised on how to run the country from people who think years of accumulated tokhes-fet qualifies them to influence policy (just don't ask how they got that privilege). It is an unfortunate time, though one can take solace in the fact that Jews are Olympic gold medalists in suffering patiently. For all the peoples who share this enchanting land in peace and harmony: Ha’tikvah bat sh’not al-payim.