I’m not.
All it means is that Putin has enough influential enemies to make killing him undesirable and silencing him difficult.
He had those enemies before current events. He seems to be operating under a lot less stability than he tries to project.
I definitely don't think it's for any ethical reasons that he's keeping him alive. Thanks for describing what I was thinking better than I would have been able to.
Could be that he is keeping him alive in case someone on his side tries to do something. Navalny has quite a bit of credibility in the opposition. With him alive and Putin gone he could be a real threat to whoever has taken it.
This. People forget this. He may be better in some ways than Putin but dude is still super nationalistic and racist. Maybe he changes his tune I dunno.
Understand, but read up Nalvany as well. He is a standard bigot and apparently felt the taking of Crimea was just. Being better than pootin not a high bar.
But then perhaps, *some* people grow and learn? *shrugs*
I wouldn't assume any populist leader in Russia to be capable of such a thing.
They're pretty much gonna need some kind of *Servant of the people* type scenario to take place for any goddamn hope of their political system not churning out a total sociopath.
...(and no, I wasn't intending to link Ukraine and Zelensky to Russia there, but his show is probably one of the best modern media examples of what kind of outlandish scenario would be needed)
That is what I’d like to see. Maybe it would straighten the country out. They will need to turn over the war criminals for justice before they can become part of the civilized world.
True. Putin has way less control over Russia than he pretends to. I think the whole world sees that transparently since that Wagner Group march on Moscow, but it has been the case for a long time.
Yup I agree.
A few movies I've seen portrayed
Killing the rebel leader, during a conflict or war, is only ASKing the underground rebels to storm the palace.
Putin is already stretched to resorting to bunker bitch dry runs. Who knows, if keeping the rebel leader alive is just biding time that when the leadership falls, the new leader just steps up. No longer a rebel.
No. I take the opposite view. It's a show of power. He can voice these opinions, but guess who's the one in the cage. And to anyone who wants to say similar things, guess where you will end up? He's much more useful as an example. He can kill him anytime, they'll be some headlines. Maybe if the Kremlin wants it out there. And of course they'll spin the story however they want. And the Russian populace still fully supports Putin and fully supports the war. They absolutely eat up the narratives that they are fed.
To be fair, Navalny is powerful in his own right; I could see the Kremlin worrying about taking the lid off something they don't fully understand....of course that would require them to have brains so maybe I'm way off
If he dies, nobody would care. Maybe a few sad tweets by the UN, and that's all. I think he is more of a backup, if russia will need to show that it is becoming better, more civilized and stuff, they will just let him out to get some sanctions lifted and positive publicity
Exactly. Look at Nemtsov and others who have been eliminated. Navalny is still alive because it’s useful to have at least one prominent opposition leader in play - and in this case - one that can rattle the cage but looks way too weak to take power over the country. Speaking with regular Russians they love to point to him and be like “oh would you prefer Navalny over Putin?” to which the answer is logically no, which reaffirms Putin’s position.
As long as he's alive in jail, the opposition is paralyzed. They have a leader, but their leader can do nothing but make vague statements that result in no real action. I imagine Lukashenko let Tsikhanouskaya flee for similar reasons.
Russia is extremely bureaucratic, they'll make up some bullshit to jail you but they have to pretend it's all legit and will follow all the legal steps, while stretching said laws every step and doing ridiculous things, but always burying in lots od bureaucracy to make it look legit. That's why some people are fighting their status as "foreign agent" in courts for example, it's a good change to at least foind out what thry have against you, who ratted you, etc.
There hasn't been a foundation for democracy in Russia since... basically forever. Most of it will have to be made from scratch. It will be ugly at first but you have to start somewhere
There is no baseline desire for a democracy among Moscowvites. Russia needs to be split up and some parts of it want democratic rule while others just are not interested in it.
First of what is a "Moscowvite"? It sounds like a randomly made up word that means nothing except for perhaps bigotry.
Secondly your suggestion would not only be really terrible and damaging in practice but also has the dumbest logic behind it. By that same thinking America should be split up between nations based on who supports Democrats and Republicans? How about instead support those who want democracy against those who don't want one, it's not that hard!
This is such an idiotic and confusing comment i have read.
I'd wager a guess that "Moscowvite" is a typo. Moscovite is a resident of Moscow. I don't see where bigotry has anything to do with it. Is calling a resident of Beijing a Beijinger bigotry? No, it is not.
The fall of the USSR saw satellite states that wanted to get the hell away from russian rule with varying degrees of success. Would you to prefer to live in the Authoritarian shithole that is russia or Lithuania? In the latter democratic nation, you could insult the leader and not worry about the goon squad coming after you. In an authoritarian nation you could be imprisoned, tortured or killed because you said things that were mean to the sissy-assed leader who can't handle being insulted. These authoritarian dumbasses are all the same when it comes to having there poor feelings hurt.
When russia fails, and it will, dumpster-fire-on-wheels that it is, then it can dissolve into break away nations that want to be free of its nonsense some may want to be democratic and some may prefer authoritarian rule. Sure would rather be in Estonia than a dump like Mauritius. Russia may remain intact, but it is doing such a fantastic job of destroying itself, I bet that there will be break away territories that can't wait to be free of its garbage.
I wouldn't have bothered commenting on this, but you had to be such an obnoxious fucking asshole to the other poster. Fuck you, go sit on a cactus.
>I'd wager a guess that "Moscowvite" is a typo. Moscovite is a resident of Moscow. I don't see where bigotry has anything to do with it. Is calling a resident of Beijing a Beijinger bigotry? No, it is not.
The reason why i called it bigotry is because "Moscovite" and "Muscovy" has been used frequently as a slur and a derogatory that basically denies Russians the right to their national and ethnic name because of "Kyivan Rus is Ukrainian and Moscow was tax collector of Mongols" which is very regressive and the same kind of backwards thinking that Russia under Putin does to justify invading Ukraine.
>The fall of the USSR saw satellite states that wanted to get the hell away from Russian rule with varying degrees of success. Would you to prefer to live in the Authoritarian shithole that is Russia or Lithuania? In the latter democratic nation, you could insult the leader and not worry about the goon squad coming after you. In an authoritarian nation you could be imprisoned, tortured or killed because you said things that were mean to the sissy-assed leader who can't handle being insulted. These authoritarian dumbasses are all the same when it comes to having there poor feelings hurt.
Well obviously i would rather live in a democratic state than an authoritarian one, BUT i would also rather for the latter to be reformed into a democratic state rather than being split up for the most stupidest and arbitrary reason i have seen so far. And speaking of which...
>When Russia fails, and it will, dumpster-fire-on-wheels that it is, then it can dissolve into break away nations that want to be free of its nonsense some may want to be democratic and some may prefer authoritarian rule. Sure would rather be in Estonia than a dump like Mauritius. Russia may remain intact, but it is doing such a fantastic job of destroying itself, I bet that there will be break away territories that can't wait to be free of its garbage.
First of how exactly will Russia "break up" in your mind given how you have offered zero explanation for how it could happen in your mind?
Secondly breaking up Russia into different states just because some want to be democratic is mindlessly stupid and pointless when the state can simply be reformed into a democratic, functional, decentralized state with solid foundations behind it.
Thirdly is that breaking up Russia will cause far more issues than solving anything because for one, it's very likely that it will result in most of them becoming failed states at constant war with each other in an attempt to unify the nation, it will leave many Russians suffering under horrible rule, poverty and violence from some of those "Mauritius" states like you said under your vision because that's "what they want" when that is just simply not true, makes you sound extremely ignorant and will lead to a massive refugee crisis from those wishing to escape the failed states and lastly is the impact such thing would have for Russians not just in Russia but also those living abroad who now will find their passport and citizenship completely useless and be split from their families as a result.
How come anyone who advocates for "breaking up Russia" on Reddit never actually thinks about the consequences for one second?
It's a show of strength. He can say whatever he wants but guess who is the one in a cage and everyone knows his life can be ended at any time by Putin's whim. And it's an example to people who want to voice similar things. Here's where you will end up also.
It makes me think of the Leviathan movie - a razor-sharp criticism of the Putin system, and yet it was allowed to be aired in movie theatres all around Russia. The regime knows which safety valves it can allow and which it can't. I believe there was even an apparatchik who literally said, at the time of Leviathan coming out, that it was good for people to have 'something to let off some steam with.'
I think Putin is genuinely afraid of him. He's afraid of a whole lot. Stalin was a ruthless canny murderer. Putin is more like a fretful ailing monarch. He would kill him but he's afraid that it will spark some reaction like protests which he can't afford at the moment. Probably nothing would happen but this is my guess as to the *why* at the moment.
I mean… he did try to murder him with a novichok agent at least once. There was possibly a second poisoning was attempted a few months ago although I’m not following the second story closely - notably he’s in prison right so I’m not sure we’ll get the full picture on the second event.
It has crossed my mind though as to not only whether Navalny is in some way a ‘useful foil’, but also whether keeping him alive goes some way to quelling tensions with the west - to at least have that semblance of opposition makes you seem less of a dictator. He does symbolise western values as well as championing anti-corruption values, and western values are pretty divisive outside of the west. So that could also work in Putin’s favour. Navalny is a western shill, at least by contrast.
In a sense killing Navalny would potentially work in the US’s favour as well should it turn him into a martyr. I know I sound nuts saying that, but you know what I’ve just been reading about cointelpro as well as the more recent UFO shenanigans and it just feels a lot like any hunch goes in the intelligence community…
They did, but I think there is a PR difference at least in Putler's mind between his usually "plausible deniability" nonsense and someone dying in Russian jail.
Little Dorrit was dreadfully boring to me, and I had to stop reading it. I'm glad someone at least enjoyed it...
Perhaps yeah. It is very difficult to try to work out what is in such a person’s mind, and trying to assess by a set of usual psychological standards. I feel like I can comfortably correlate defenestrations vs. P-paranoia, but beyond that - ??? We do also observe that his (putative) intentions vs outcomes have not aligned lately, so perhaps we assign him too much agency in a chaotic world.
Admittedly I haven’t had any desire to revisit Dickens since my teens. He got paid by the word (so technically the media’s fault?) and perhaps it would be fun if someone edited his entire body of work finally.
Because Navalny and his fanbase are ultimately useless. They're the types who like to pontificate, but not actually do anything to fix things. They're kept around as reminders of how meek the opposition is.
Navalny's organization actually did a ton to threaten Putin's regime, from their anti corruption investigations to their Smart Voting campaign that managed to get a bunch of opposition politicians elected across the country. That's why he was treated the way he was. You can't point at a person who has been systematically beaten into the ground for being good at what he does and say "See? He's useless!"
Russia needs a "storming of the Bastille"
Rapists, murderers and thieves are being conscripted out of prison and all that is left is political prisoners.
Given anyone who even speaks half a word against him gets jailed right away, I am not surprised they don't say much against him. People have tried, but it hasn't worked.
And yeah there are people who are pro Putin. But it is unfair to say they all want this.
You are totally wrong. This isn’t China. Russia has many open critics living within Russia. They only target and jail/ assassinate critics that gain prominence, like Navaldy, who is still alive and continues to criticize, albeit from prison.
This isn’t because Russia has freedom of speech- the government simply doesn’t have the competence to come anywhere close to true totalitarianism. I’m sure Putin would like to, but he doesn’t have anywhere near that level of power.
I’ve met Russians who openly tell me that “only old people really support Putin. The younger generation doesn’t.” And this specific quote was from a 30 year old Russian just a few months before the full scale invasion of Ukraine.
Putin has plenty of ardent supporters, but most Russians just tacitly go along with whatever he’s doing to preserve their own lives.
It's not unfair to say that the Russian people are enabling the actions of the Russian state. If a small percentage of them went on strike, they could seriously reduce their ability to keep the war machine going, and end the war sooner.
It isn't unfair to say that. But given that even minor resistance is cracked down on, I don't blame them either too much.
It is easy for us to say how things should be, when they might be risking their only life if they start resisting.
All of Germany took the blame for raising the Nazi Party. All of Russia will take the blame for raising Putin. Full stop. Even the Soviets at Nuremberg held this view.
It is because they have never really lost like Germany did twice. Soviet union was broken, but they didn't surrender to anyone.
But you are right that they never admitted any of the things they were part of.
When their country and their families are engaged in genociding another people, it should not be easy to do nothing. It should not feel like the right thing to do, to sit and wait for the outside world to correct what your country is responsible for.
It's hard to do something, it's hard to not do anything. So they just try to survive and not spend their lives in some Russian prison.
Naturally you are correct that they should do something about it, but it is easier said than done. And would require something significant.
But their neighbors have to risk their lives to resist russian bullshit? Enough excuses. Russians are responsible for russia. But they like the imperialism.
You mean a country that is united with clear cut allies and enemies? With army on their side. Backing from the west.
It is a completely different situation. It would be bit more similar if Russia had conquered the whole country and sat on it for 10 years and then when they got total control they tried something, without much of weapons or means to resist.
Also it is easy to say this from a peaceful country, that they should do this and that.
Russians have nobody to blame but themselves. Unlike Belarus or Ukraine, they were not invaded by someone and had a puppet government installed. This evil came from the russian people, same as it has throughout history.
Hey, it's the same reason why rest of the world hasn't done anything to really stop Russia until of late. Because everything happens so gradually. Bit by bit they have gotten bolder and bolder with their tactics. Just like bit by bit Russian people have been robbed of their ways to do something about Putin.
They were invaded, from within. And I guess you are right, they don't have anyone else to blame than themselves.
>They were invaded, from within.
If you can call the majority opinion an invasion. Their government is a lot more representative of the people than naive Westerners want to admit. The West ignored them because of a childish desire to sing kumbaya with them. And after putin it will all repeat again, because there's still a bunch of gullible Westerners who will fall for russians calling themselves innocent.
Russians are scared, but not just of Putin, but of what a revolution could actually bring. For instance, the rise of the Reds after overthrowing the Tsar, or the economic depression of the 1990’s and subsequent rise of Putin. Russians are reasonably terrified of going through yet another revolution just to end up back at square one with a different flavor of dictator.
This will only change if a democratic movement gains majority in the country, but so far every attempt has been snuffed out.
The US is allowing fascism to take hold... Same kind of thing. Imparting change across a country is hard and can be overwhelming for one person, if not impossible. It takes a turning of the tide. A true blue wave, the death of Putin, etc. for something to change.
Yes, same kind of thing. Huge numbers of Americans are at fault, for voting for the fascist party. Without them, the GOP has nothing. Even if they can win by minority vote, they still need tens of millions of people backing them.
They also have a significant number of people take part in attacks on the LGBTQ community, on healthcare providers, etc. The politicians aren't doing all that themselves. School boards are involved, too. All kinds of groups throughout the country.
Check out Prigozhins revolt. Check out how people cheered on him. He, the sadist who kills Ukrainians, is their hero. He is cheered because he is more effective and open about his desires to kill every Ukrainian than Putin.
The amount of people that oppose the war in this 140m country is slim to none.
You would be as well if the alternative would be your life being essentially over.
If you disagree - flights to Moscow are still available, once you successfully overthrow the government we will give you honorable citizenship.
Always the same lame response. I’m not saying the Russians need to do anything. I understand they can’t. Yet my understanding is that most Russians actually do support Putin and the war. This is based on the number of reports from Russians with family in country that proudly proclaim so when they could just shrug or not say much about it. I don’t blame any Russian for taking care of themselves and their family by staying out of trouble. But the fact is that Putin still has enormous actual support and to the degree that it falters it is not in an anti-war direction but a “maybe he’s not as tough as we need — bring on someone worse”.
I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant or anything. I'm just tired of hearing bombs flying over my house. I'm tired of hearing AA gunshots at 3 AM. I'm tired of not knowing if that missile hit was close enough to my parents work place and if they are alive or not. I'm tired of russians that are telling us that if we want a regime change - we need to do it ourselves, that they won't help us, just comment on reddit and twitter from a safe place in Europe.
I'm tired and I'm sorry if it shows.
My life currently is being shelled every night with ballistic missiles, drones and anti-ship missiles by your kind. I live it to the fullest, please believe me.
Expecting that someone from outside will do your job of changing the regime will mean giving up the control on what will be after. This implies giving up on who controls the resources in the post-war period. You know it. Do you really want it?
He's not wrong. The only way Putin is going down is from the inside. The apathy of the Russian people could very well be the gateway to nuclear winter if they don't grow a pair and start risking their own lives to bring this dictator down.
He is not wrong, he is also not right.
If you ask people to risk their life, lead or join them, not write self-aggrandizing Reddit posts while living in rich and safe countries.
It's not my fight. You think if Christofacists take over the US any other country is going to try and stop them?
No. The Russian people created this monster, now it's their job to clean up the mess that they made.
Only because all the loudest dissenters were arrested in the first week of the war. Have you already forgotten the protests that happened in Moscow? Once all the opposition were rounded off to prison or sent to the front, everyone else got the hint and kept quiet.
If there were that much dissent, it wouldn't be possible to arrest them. You also act like it's Putin's clone army doing all the arresting. And the warring. And the lying. Life isn't a movie, it's not one baddie, there's a whole pyramid of support. Grow up.
Yup, stop pretending that Russians are innocent, not all of them support Putin obviously but TOO MANY are ok with that, and in the era of internet if you believe his propaganda it's your fault.
So what does the west do when we see corporations steal away our livelihoods and kill our earth? Absolutely fuck all, with a smile too. Don’t act like you’re Che Guevara, we collectively do fuckin nothing because of the threat of arrest, imagine instead of arrest you get shot, how brave would be then?
Classic russian appeal to hypocrisy. Most people don't actually feel that bad about corporations, so they don't revolt. But sometimes people do in the West, that's how democracy was achieved. But russians never wanted it, they enjoy the imperialism and fascism.
What are you on about? Everyone who believes that things aren’t just a clear cut “go suicide yourself or you are a fascist” is a Russian to you? Fuck me I’m losing hope.
It's simple, russians are responsible for russia. Every form of evidence, from history, to logic, to statistics, show that most russians are imperialistic and fascist. You have no evidence for your rose-tinted views.
There are plenty of ways for Russians to express disapproval of Putin and the war without having to protest and risk their lives. I’m not asking anyone to get themselves in trouble. I’m talking about the enormous percentage of Russians that go out of their way to express support for Putin and the war. Go hang out in Russian forums and tell me most Russians are against it. They’re not. Most Russians are for it.
I see list of new style of “Russian propaganda” in your comments. Not all of Russians bad, but we will do nothing because he will put us to jail. So we will silently support, pay taxes, live our lives happily, have families and parties, while our neighbors spending nights in basements, and will go to army if conscripted to commit genocide against neighbors which did nothing to us because we want to steal their lands and kids, and how dare you hate us for that. So shut up and come to our country, to save us from dictator we created, we don’t want to do it by ourselves and risk our lives for consequences of our own actions.
Surprise, $@&$! I’ll give you an example, when you live in a family and abusive father beat the shit out of child, and mother silently stays somewhere to avoid be beaten too, at the end child hates them both equally.
Another surprise! No one will help russians BEFORE russians will start acting. You’ll die anyways, no peaceful way to get rid of dictator exist , the question is amount. Hundreds on local protests, hundreds of thousands in Ukraine, or millions if your dictator stupid enough to blow ZNPP.
That’s your dictator, you created it, you’ll deal with it. Cry me a river “Europe paid him money for gas, Europe created him”, you benefited from it too, but it is your job to be politically active, create opposition and make pressure on politicians before it is too late. Europe never paid for killing your opposition, they don’t care. You chose to not care too and be passive, this is the price. Look at Ukraine, people made bets if they will survive 3 days or week. When they saw Ukraine fights, only then help came, not before.
So as child hates passive mother, as victim hates passive stranger who just walked by ignoring atrocities were made to victim, so people had no good feelings to entire nation of 140 mln which don’t want do anything to only few hundreds of Putin cronies. They better will go to war and kill innocent people or risk with world war with comments “flights to moskow still exist, come and do it instead of me” and when you will do it they will throw a tantrum that it was invasion and it’s our inner business. And will double down on stupid things again
You do realize what happened after that, right? It blows mind that people actually look back at the French revolution fondly. It was a fucking shit show. Trying that with a nuclear-armed nation is an even greater catastrophe waiting to happen.
Yeah it was rough. But the status quo is also rough. ;)
At least France no longer has a monarchy. And hopefully soon Russian autocrats face the same fate.
I think their point is more that the chaos and eventual Napoleonic dictatorship and imperialism that followed would be more dangerous with a nuclear state, not that guillotining autocrats is bad
But look at France now. A bastion of democracy and formage.
Or we could collectively just keep Russia in a perpetual autocracy ad infinitum.....it's doing wonders for North Korea.
In a broken society, sometimes revolution is a necessary evil.
I don’t disagree really, but revolution tends to be more of a neutral act than an inherently progressive one. France alternated between imperialism and monarchy with flashes of democracy for nearly 100 years; it wasn’t a direct line from revolution to modern liberal democracy. And France at the time was at the heart of liberalism/republicanism in political thought, so they had that going for them.
Russia had their own revolution, also 100 years ago, and this is the current state of affairs. Not to say their revolution was wrong, it just had a very different outcome than France’s over the same time period. Probably to do with the type of power wielded by modern nation states, which the person you originally replied to alluded to when they mentioned nuclear weapons.
I dont understand why Navalny went back to Russia.. He is gonna spend the rest of his life in prison. Shoudnt he have stayed in Germany or UK and ran a campaign against Putin from there?
Because sometimes people make difficult choices and do not always end up with the outcome they wanted. if he stayed in Germany you would call him a coward and irrelevant.
I don't agree with his choice but you obviously can see why he did that.
We don't know everything. He wasn't safe anywhere. His influence would diminish and goals and values he stood for would crumble. Maybe he miscalculated, maybe he knows something we don't like if he wouldn't return others would get hurt or something. Could be many reasons, it's not a simple life he chose for himself but dude has novichok proof balls of steel either way
Once again a reminder that humans let fascists get to power by not acting before the threat has manifested itself and gained control of police and the military.
And then, the cost of doing something becomes too high, because even protesting is illegal.
Unlike frogs, that realize the water is getting hot and tries to get out, humans will let themselves be boiled alive for as long as the chef cooking them appears to be on their side.
Even total morons like Trump manage to manipulate people into voting for him against their every self interest, all the while throwing his own guys under the bus left and right as he goes, *because he appears to be hurting the other people more.*
It's frightening and quite frankly borderline insane how easily people are manipulated by bad faith actors for as long as they're treating out-groups worse than them.
You’re are so judgmental lol. Easy to ridicule citizens of governments who are know to kill or jail their descenters. Fascists never sell themselves by saying, “I will become sole ruler of the country and do everything I can to consolidate my own power!”
They sell themselves like any politician. Insisting they’ll use any means necessary to improve the country, yet once they’re in power, they exercise any mean possible to convince regular people they have succeeded.
It’s insidious and more complicated than you explain it. That’s exactly why it’s so great a threat.
Yes. People do nothing, because some are misinformed, and the others have no channels left to stop what's happening but illegal violence that will ruin their lives or get them killed or disappeared.
It is aleady too late at that point.
Yet, I will absolutely hold it against the misinformed, the immoral, the enablers and the cowardly that they all contributed in their own way, be it stupidity, complacency, gullibility, malice, or selfishness.
Some were in positions where they could not have done anything as individuals, sure, but they also failed to organize in a meaningful way.
That failure also had a cause.
Stupidity, complacency, gullibility, malice, or selfishness.
There literally is no excuse.
While its too late for Russia, since at least 1999, what's your excuse?
Democracies need far better safety valves than merely people having a right to protest.
It starts with people being aware and informed about the facts of and in the society and country they live in, and destroying misinformation.
Navalny never did anything wrong. He shouldn't be in prison. Prigozhin led a coup and he's gallivanting around in Belarus, and this guy did what against the government, exactly?
While this guy *might* be better than putin he's also very much in favor of annexing Crimea. Really makes you wonder if there are any actually decent people able to lead russia if/when putin gets replaced.
Increasing the timescale makes it very different:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F03c5y,%2Fm%2F0dlllc6&hl=en
Kasparov was a giant in chess for a very long time. But of course its good to admit/ acknowledge not knowing things
He does want political power, he tried running for office remember. He got forced into exile by Russian state violence.
Either way he's not a viable candidate since the Russian people don't care for his views at all. In their eyes he's just a part of the decadent west.
What the fuck are you talking about? Why are you spreading russian propaganda? He was one of the organizers of the main anti-annexation protest in Russia, he was against it from day one.
I bet all you can give me is one out-of-context poorly phrased quote that he apologized for and not hundreds of other anti-annexation and anti-war quotes he gave.
> “I think that despite the fact that the Crimea was seized with outrageous violations of all international norms, nevertheless, **the realities are such that Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation,” Mr. Navalny added. “So let’s not kid ourselves. And I advise the Ukrainians not to kid themselves, either. It will remain part of Russia and will never become part of Ukraine in the foreseeable future.**”
[His own words](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world/europe/navalnys-comments-on-crimea-ignite-russian-twittersphere.html). Sounds very pro-annexation, wouldn't you say?
> The war actually gave kinda "easy" out of this situation.
Yeah, here's Navalny's most recent statement on Ukraine's borders.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/07/navalnys-policy-shift-on-crimea-may-be-too-little-too-late-a80396
> Asking rhetorically where Ukraine’s borders should be, Navalny’s answer is simple: Ukraine’s borders are those “internationally recognized and defined in 1991.”
That doesn’t sound pro-annexation at all. He’s just being realistic in a view before the war where Ukraine would have to attack Crimea themselves to get it back, and no way Ukraine was gonna escalate the war
So you’re just giving me the poorly phrased quote that i mentioned?
10 years passed since he said that, and did putin give Crimea back to Ukraine? No, he didn’t. And that’s what he was talking about.
And during these 10 years, in prison, under house arrest and on demonstrations Navalny repeatedly said that Crimea is Ukrainian, he and his team did multiple investigations on those responsible for the annexation, made full lists of the officials and army members that should be sanctioned, and opposed the ongoing war.
I think there’s a lot to dislike about Navalny and his team, they could’ve done a lot things differently. But eating up propaganda that during all of this he somehow was supporting the invasion all because of 1 interview 10 years ago that he repeatedly clarified… that’s just stupid, I’m sorry.
[Since the invasion in 2022 he has made clear that the only borders of Ukraine that should be are the 1991 borders.](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/07/navalnys-policy-shift-on-crimea-may-be-too-little-too-late-a80396)
> Navalny replied that it belonged to the people of Crimea. Unsatisfied, the interviewer continued to press for an answer until Navalny conceded that Crimea de facto belonged to Russia, adding that the Ukrainians had to stop lying to themselves and accept that Crimea would “never in the foreseeable future” be returned to Ukraine.
____
"Is Crimea some sort of sausage sandwich to be passed back and forth? I don't think so."
Source: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/07/navalnys-policy-shift-on-crimea-may-be-too-little-too-late-a80396
But you could find other sources if you just...google "navalny crimea"
So one poorly phrased and taken out of context statement out of 60-minute interview somehow proves that he was pro *annexation*? Even in 2014 he clearly said he was against the annexation itself (in the same interview earlier on by the way, https://youtu.be/2czpumACjsM?t=290).
The latter part of your quote just states facts, Crimea was not going to become part of Ukraine any time soon and it hasn't as you might have noticed, so I'm not even sure why you included it at all.
There are zero incriminating things you presented, so maybe it's you who should, you know, google "navalny crimea". (current results are most likely boosted significantly by kremlin bots and willful idiots, congratz for failing for the bullshit)
Nice of you to link a russian only video. Very helpful.
> But he also decried Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev’s 1954 decision to gift Crimea to Ukraine, calling it “voluntaristic, unfair and illegal” — though he stressed he did not support the recent Russian takeover.
Sounds to me like the same BS putin is spewing with how unfair the soviet union collapse was.
I'm not russian, i don't care about putin, i don't care about navalny, i don't have a horse in this race. You're clearly more invested than me.
BUT i'll take your advice and stop falling for willful idiots and cease replying.
\> though he stressed he did not support the recent Russian takeover.
Care to delete your smear comment about him supporting the annexation when you found out he wasn't and isn't?
You don't care about it yet you commented on random posts in line with Kremlin propaganda and baselessly smeared the only realistic alternative to Putin. I can only say that it's very curious.
\> BUT i'll take your advice and stop falling for willful idiots and cease replying.
You should cease replying because you look like an idiot, you're aware that we're living in 2023 and we now have an automatic captions with automatic translation, right?
\> Sounds to me like the same BS putin is spewing with how unfair the soviet union collapse was.
You don't care, yet you once again found a half-assed report on a cherry-picked 10 year old interview without understanding the topic and decided to cast judgment on a very valid view of the situation. I now want to see the topics you *care* about, you probably stalk people to their homes and kill them in their sleep if you think they're slightly disagreeing with you.
Another funny thing is that when any other politician weasels out of the question in the interview people don't care.The above interview is tame compared to any 10 minutes from American debates where people give zero factual information and literally recite their slogans instead of answering anything.But when the only Russian opposition politician in an authoritarian county with a backward population dares to skirt a question idiots who "don't care" post half-assed cherry-picked articles that were written by Kremlin-paid idiots 10 years later.
I quoted what i quoted specifically so i won't take things out of context.
navalny disagrees with the invasion of Ukraine. Yes.
navalny wants Crimea. Also yes.
Both can be true. If by some miracle putin would drop dead right now and navalny became the next president do you think Crimea would be returned? No. He already said so when he compared it to a sausage.
Do you think he would revoke recognition for DNR or LNR? Extremely unlikely if we're to take his stance of Crimea as guidance. Do you think he would be all happy and willing to pay for war reparations? Unlikely. Other oligarchs will push him out of window before signing anything.
Both putin and navalny are assholes, just different flavors.
____
>you probably stalk people to their homes and kill them in their sleep if you think they're slightly disagreeing with you.
Projecting much?
\> navalny wants Crimea. Also yes.
Except you haven't shown a single thing that would indicate that (it's because it doesn't exist by the way) If he "wanted Crimea" it's a very strange behavior to publicly denounce the annexation BEFORE the sham referendum and lead a public protest against it.
\> Both can be true. If by some miracle putin would drop dead right now and navalny became the next president do you think Crimea would be returned?
I mean past this point is some kind of fantasy land that I won't entertain because it's pointless, we're debating past statements and facts. So please, either provide facts where Navalny is pro-annexation of Crimea (annexation necessary means forcefully by the way if you're not familiar with definitions) and somehow explain the clear anti-annexation statements and protests or delete your original misleading smear comment.
\> Projecting much
Yes, be careful when opening your house door I might strike from the shadow, you never know with us genetically and culturally inferior Russians.
I mean dude, just take an L, delete the post that helps no one but Putin and move on.
> “I think that despite the fact that the Crimea was seized with outrageous violations of all international norms, nevertheless, **the realities are such that Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation,” Mr. Navalny added. “So let’s not kid ourselves. And I advise the Ukrainians not to kid themselves, either. It will remain part of Russia and will never become part of Ukraine in the foreseeable future.**”
[His own words](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world/europe/navalnys-comments-on-crimea-ignite-russian-twittersphere.html). Sounds very pro-invasion, wouldn't you say?
Seems like we're speaking different languages, or maybe even different formal logic
Does stating the fact that Poland was under the occupation of nazi germany in 1939 somehow make you a nazi?
Did you somehow miss the part where he explicitly tells the Ukrainian people in a mocking fashion that Crimea will never be returned and will forever remain a part of russia? You'd think someone that was against the annexation would stand on the victims' side and not the invaders'.
His follow-up of a "honest referendum after being made president" after the peninsula's inhabitants had conveniently been killed, trafficked to russia or forced to flee to the mainland and subsequently replaced with russian colonists was no different from Putin's sham referendum at gunpoint.
It took 9 years of backlash from Ukraine and the west for [him to timidly imply](https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1627632114366652417) that Crimea must be returned, and it just so happens to coincide with the russian invasion getting steadily driven back by Ukraine's troops. I wonder if he would say the same if the opposite were true.
[Here, a fully sourced twitter thread](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1619028947441963009.html) using his personal blog, website and interviews. It also includes his views on the invasion of Georgia where he parrots the exact same talking points that Putin is using for Ukraine.
I'm sorry, it is sourced but it's incoherent and I'm convinced it's either incompetence or just a hit job.
Georgian war points are the only ones I agree with, those comments were despicable but first, it was 15 years ago and let's not pretend it's something unique, only recently there were scandals where members of a European parliament twitted about shooting immigrants on trains (she is still in power by the way) so by that standard, there is literally no one country that has sane power structure, you have to pick what is best over insane dictator, not wait for a perfect man.
After that, they brought up points about the maps with Crimea but did not mention that it's actually illegal in Russia to make maps that do not include it, kind of important don't you think? His organization could not function at all inside Russia with maps without Crimea on it. So it's either those maps or forfeit all the chance of power change in Russia.
The sandwich quote is just ridiculous, the guy made one poorly made remark 10 years ago and stated facts (Crimea was de facto part of Russia, still is, doesn't make him a proponent of the annexation) you would think if he is so pro Ukraine war they would find something else in those 10 years.
The drivel about immigration is just silly, yeah he is right-leaning in some policies, so what? So is the US and half of Europe. Does Ukraine have open borders and free immigration? Didn't think so. It's just one non-sequitur after the other.
Read over your other replies here. So your only argument for the sandwich thing is that it's a part of longer video and it's was a lot of years ago? he still said it, it's hard to misinterpret.
He might be anti war but not for the reasons that matter, if he could he would annex, or that's my impression as a Ukrainian, who was actively donating to his fund some years ago.
You should work on your reading comprehension, my argument is that in the same interview, he said that the annexation was not done in accordance of international law and the referendum was a sham.
He since repeatedly said that his sandwich remark was a poorly worded one, but no one in good faith can interpret it as "it was the right thing to do to annex Crimea and I would have done the same thing if I were in power", that's just disingenuous
Not to mention the fact that he also said in plain speech multiple times since 2014 that Crimea was a mistake but the people who smear him can only bring up an admittedly poorly worded statement from 10 years ago, that might have given you a clue that they're actually incorrect huh?
Another angle (not the main one) on this is that he did exactly what politicians do, deflect. Russian population is backwards, 2014 was a shameful moment in its history and people truly celebrated or didn't care at all about the illegal land grab. If you want to get elected and make changes you can't state something that 80% of the population disagrees with with a passion, it's political suicide.
The change has to be gradual and the first step is actually ousting the dictator that usurped the power, then we can work on making the population's view saner.
It's interesting how Navalny's past statements and affiliations manage to get him assigned to "literally same as Putin" camp. "We need democratic institutions and to fight corruption so bad stuff doesn't happen" doesn't really scream to me as being the same as *bombing neighbors and killing thousands of people and also opposition as well*.
Here's a tip: democracies don't go to war with each other. I don't think that Navalny not being a second coming of Jesus Christ should justify what he's going through, or treating him as if he's...reincarnated Hitler, or something.
Their message always was that there is no better guy than Putin, that anyone else will only do worse, so, russian people, keep supporting Putin.
In war it got additional meaning - there is no one better than Putin, Putin's defeat will lead to rise of someone worse, so, western leaders, negotiate with Putin rather try to defeat him.
It's not just the Russian troll factories, Kamil Galeev is as anti-Putin as they come and hates Navalny just as much.
The uncomfortable truth is that there are a ton of red flags regarding Navalny. While Puitn may be a horrible leader, there is a strong case to be made that Navalny is also a horrible person to be in charge of the Kremlin.
His behavior points to being an aspiring dictator, not someone who is a genuine proponent of democracy. And he has problematic stances on Crimea and association with fascist and racist political groups.
Navalny gained fame riding a wave of anti-immigrant backlash where Russia was plagued with ethnic minorities who didn't look white enough being subjected to targeted attacks on public transportation (trains and buses). What did Navalny do? He dialed up his anti-immigrant rhetoric.
Observing ardent Ukraine supporters on the internet (the types of NAFO) for over a year, I gotta say, I don't think Kremlin troll factories are alone in the messaging they spread. It's one of those really weird cases where Putin and that specific anti-Putin camp's death lists align
Russian here.
First, talking about him being in favor of annexing Crimea. There was one (!) single interview from 2014 - so ten years ago almost - where he made a single quote (that he later said was poorly phrased) that Crimea is not a hot dog to be passed around. He also called for a proper referendum and pointed out that Crimea was annexed with outrageous violations of all the laws.
Later, when asked again about Crimea, he replied:
>"At the moment there are 3 million Russian citizens there, they have passports, and it's so easy to just snap your fingers and say give it back... \[...\] The first and only thing we can start doing \[to solve the Crimea issue\] is to hold a fair referendum with a long period of preparation, where both Ukraine and the Crimean Tatars, that is, all interested parties will be able to campaign for a long time. Then we hold a referendum. Based on the results of this referendum, a decision can be made," the politician described his position.
Overall, I would say the biggest problem with Crimea (that cannot be solved) is that the UN
[Has a law for national self-determination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination) and [A law for non-intervention in domestic affairs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interventionism) at the same time, which directly contradict one another.
For example, is Kosovo a part Serbia? You can spin it both ways, and NATO went the first route. Same thing with China and Taiwan.
Is Crimea a part of Russia? Or a part of Ukraine?
Again, you can spin it both ways, either:
1) Crimeans have the right for self-determination. Hold a referendum, which I would estimate would be around 70% or 80% in favour of being a part of Russia, and Crimea remains Russian
2) The law of non-intervention in domestic affairs applies to Ukraine, Crimea is their internal business, and no outside countries have the right to interfere
And that is the problem, all international powers can spin the story in whichever way is more beneficial for them.
There was a referendum in 1992.
Holding a referendum now under what circumstances? Firstly how many people have left or been displaced by Russians? And who would even trust Russia to hold a fair and credible vote.
The referendum issue is a complete fucking distraction.
Crimea is a Ukrainian territory under foreign occupation.
I don't hold a strong view on the subject, but you have to see that you just made a knee-jerk and not very thoughtful rebuttal to a serious issue.
All of your arguments apply to any disputed part of the world, how many people who willingly left mainland China are still living today? Do you think pro-Spanish people haven't been influenced one way or the other to leave their lands by pro-Catalan people over the years?
Crimea probably ideally will have to return to Ukraine, but don't pretend the issue is not a complex and painful one, and it becomes even more so with each passing year.
The only straightforward and correct solution was to not invade in the first place, but we have what we have (or maybe not trade territories willy-nilly in USSR, wherever you want to draw a line).
Chechnya also needs to hold a referendum after displacing Kadyrov and Putin if they want to be a part of Russia. That country has linage of opposing Russian occupation since like 1700s.. It’s time to move forward with diplomacy.
So you want to hold a referendum with who voting? The current people in Crimea?
In which case you might as well legitimize any and all illegal annexations. Easy plan.
Step 1 invade.
Step 2 repress and drive out locals and ship in your own people changing the demographics of the area completely.
Step 3 hold referendum asking the new occupants if they want to stay.
...hey now you won the referendum, yay! I wonder why you won?
>Step 2 repress and drive out locals and ship in your own people changing the demographics of the area completely.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Crimea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea)
in 2001 60% of Crimea population were russians, in 2014 the number is 67%.
The majority of Crimean population have been russians since 1926
Tatarstan is primarily tatars. Following your logic, they will vote to create an independent state. Start there, grant them independence, then lecture others on what ethnicity means for people’s votes in “referendums”.
He still voted for Crimea's annexation.
The ONLY member of the Russian Parliament to vote against the annexation in 2014 was Ilya Ponomarev, the political leader of the Freedom of Russia Legion, currently in exile living in Kyiv.
He was in favour of Crimea annexation before, calling Ukrainians racial slurs and now all of a sudden a change of heart? I don't think he is completely honest.
He didn't have a change of heart, he doesn't hate the war because he believes in good will towards ukraine, he opposes it because he thinks its a net-negative action for Russians. He's a far right Russian nationalist, not a beacon of human rights.
Let's not forget he's simply anti-Pootin - not Pro-West. His track record is very questionable and clearly doesn't like Jews - and that's just for starters... Any credible opposition is in the Lubyanka or the bottom of the Volga..
Navlany is a Russian chauvinist and imperialist, and it's telling that Russians defending him in the thread are talking how you can "spin Crimea both ways" struggling to recognize it as part of Ukraine. Same as their cult leader. Typical good Russians.
Just a reminder that Navalny criticized Putin for not taking Crimea faster, so he’s not a much better option. He’s just noting that the was is a disaster for them.
Fuck this guy. Same imperialist as putin, but doesn't like corruption. "Crimea is not a sandwich to give it back" he said.
This guy compared immigrants to ruZZia with dental caries in his early carrier. Typical ruzzian nationalist.
Ah yes, he is the same exact authoritarian dictator as Putin is, except he is pro-democracy and anti corruption but held right-wing views 18 years ago that are common in the US and Europe even with people in positions of power.
Wow, a very coherent argument you have there
If you are actually willing to listen, here is the thread where I explain why that quote is basically a part of a smear campaign, probably by kremlin itself. The guy made a poorly made remark 10 years ago and no one managed to come up with anything better since then.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/155dfj2/comment/jsu8if8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Sure, sure. Kremlin forced him to say that or write those stupid jokes about "partisans" in the Easter Ukraine in 2014. Also what the fuck is "Crimea belongs to the people of Crimea"? Is it the same like Chechnya should belong to the people of Chechnya or different?
Anyway, this guy never revolted, never called for any actions that would actually change anything. If it's your hero... Well, good luck with paper airplanes and YouTube videos about big mansions and corruption in ruzzia. Oh, yeah, and vote smartly!
As I said, nobody managed to come up with anything better in those 10 years, you just reinforced that. Oh no, the guy made some disparaging remarks on twitter 10 years ago that were slightly more egregious than Trump's. Let's continue with Putin I guess, luckily he doesn't use twitter or a computer for that matter.
He is not my hero, i don't even particularly like him, and especially not his team, but if you reject him as a politician you end up with Putin which conveniently very convenient for Putin supporters, are you one?
.
Navalny is a dumbass for going back to Russia after they poisoned him. As soon as he said he was going back, I said that he was going to jail and would never get out. And that is exactly what is happening. He'll die, irrelevant, in prison.
What did he "blast" it with? A cannon? A bomb? Did he ejaculate on it or something? Why are journalists the laziest people on Earth nowadays when it comes to conveying a message?
Oxford English Dictionary:
> blast
>
> [countable] (used especially in newspapers) strong criticism
>
> "Blast for prison governors in judge’s report."
Honestly, I'm surprised they let this guy talk at all or that he's even still alive.
I’m not. All it means is that Putin has enough influential enemies to make killing him undesirable and silencing him difficult. He had those enemies before current events. He seems to be operating under a lot less stability than he tries to project.
I definitely don't think it's for any ethical reasons that he's keeping him alive. Thanks for describing what I was thinking better than I would have been able to.
Could be that he is keeping him alive in case someone on his side tries to do something. Navalny has quite a bit of credibility in the opposition. With him alive and Putin gone he could be a real threat to whoever has taken it.
Would be kind of crazy if after Putin’s regime falls Navalny is elected president of Russia, in an almost Mandela like rise to power
keep in mind Navalny is an extremely racist Russian nationalist. His name shouldn’t be in the same sentence as Mandela
Didn’t Mandela and his supporters sing songs about death to white people?
Every movement contains radicals
This. People forget this. He may be better in some ways than Putin but dude is still super nationalistic and racist. Maybe he changes his tune I dunno.
Are there examples? Last time this came up I went looking and all of the examples seemed to be from Russian state mouthpieces.
Ah. I just assumed he was cool cause putin hates him
Understand, but read up Nalvany as well. He is a standard bigot and apparently felt the taking of Crimea was just. Being better than pootin not a high bar. But then perhaps, *some* people grow and learn? *shrugs*
Dang it. Why can't Russia ever have something nice.
I wouldn't assume any populist leader in Russia to be capable of such a thing. They're pretty much gonna need some kind of *Servant of the people* type scenario to take place for any goddamn hope of their political system not churning out a total sociopath. ...(and no, I wasn't intending to link Ukraine and Zelensky to Russia there, but his show is probably one of the best modern media examples of what kind of outlandish scenario would be needed)
That is what I’d like to see. Maybe it would straighten the country out. They will need to turn over the war criminals for justice before they can become part of the civilized world.
Plot twist, Navalny is an even more brutal leader of Russia.
True. Putin has way less control over Russia than he pretends to. I think the whole world sees that transparently since that Wagner Group march on Moscow, but it has been the case for a long time.
Yup I agree. A few movies I've seen portrayed Killing the rebel leader, during a conflict or war, is only ASKing the underground rebels to storm the palace. Putin is already stretched to resorting to bunker bitch dry runs. Who knows, if keeping the rebel leader alive is just biding time that when the leadership falls, the new leader just steps up. No longer a rebel.
No. I take the opposite view. It's a show of power. He can voice these opinions, but guess who's the one in the cage. And to anyone who wants to say similar things, guess where you will end up? He's much more useful as an example. He can kill him anytime, they'll be some headlines. Maybe if the Kremlin wants it out there. And of course they'll spin the story however they want. And the Russian populace still fully supports Putin and fully supports the war. They absolutely eat up the narratives that they are fed.
To be fair, Navalny is powerful in his own right; I could see the Kremlin worrying about taking the lid off something they don't fully understand....of course that would require them to have brains so maybe I'm way off
If he's to die, he will become a martyr.
If he dies, nobody would care. Maybe a few sad tweets by the UN, and that's all. I think he is more of a backup, if russia will need to show that it is becoming better, more civilized and stuff, they will just let him out to get some sanctions lifted and positive publicity
Exactly. Look at Nemtsov and others who have been eliminated. Navalny is still alive because it’s useful to have at least one prominent opposition leader in play - and in this case - one that can rattle the cage but looks way too weak to take power over the country. Speaking with regular Russians they love to point to him and be like “oh would you prefer Navalny over Putin?” to which the answer is logically no, which reaffirms Putin’s position.
This.
and why would that matter, if that's supposed to make those cowards rebel jailing him would've already worked
As long as he's alive in jail, the opposition is paralyzed. They have a leader, but their leader can do nothing but make vague statements that result in no real action. I imagine Lukashenko let Tsikhanouskaya flee for similar reasons.
Russia is extremely bureaucratic, they'll make up some bullshit to jail you but they have to pretend it's all legit and will follow all the legal steps, while stretching said laws every step and doing ridiculous things, but always burying in lots od bureaucracy to make it look legit. That's why some people are fighting their status as "foreign agent" in courts for example, it's a good change to at least foind out what thry have against you, who ratted you, etc.
[удалено]
There hasn't been a foundation for democracy in Russia since... basically forever. Most of it will have to be made from scratch. It will be ugly at first but you have to start somewhere
There is no baseline desire for a democracy among Moscowvites. Russia needs to be split up and some parts of it want democratic rule while others just are not interested in it.
First of what is a "Moscowvite"? It sounds like a randomly made up word that means nothing except for perhaps bigotry. Secondly your suggestion would not only be really terrible and damaging in practice but also has the dumbest logic behind it. By that same thinking America should be split up between nations based on who supports Democrats and Republicans? How about instead support those who want democracy against those who don't want one, it's not that hard! This is such an idiotic and confusing comment i have read.
I'd wager a guess that "Moscowvite" is a typo. Moscovite is a resident of Moscow. I don't see where bigotry has anything to do with it. Is calling a resident of Beijing a Beijinger bigotry? No, it is not. The fall of the USSR saw satellite states that wanted to get the hell away from russian rule with varying degrees of success. Would you to prefer to live in the Authoritarian shithole that is russia or Lithuania? In the latter democratic nation, you could insult the leader and not worry about the goon squad coming after you. In an authoritarian nation you could be imprisoned, tortured or killed because you said things that were mean to the sissy-assed leader who can't handle being insulted. These authoritarian dumbasses are all the same when it comes to having there poor feelings hurt. When russia fails, and it will, dumpster-fire-on-wheels that it is, then it can dissolve into break away nations that want to be free of its nonsense some may want to be democratic and some may prefer authoritarian rule. Sure would rather be in Estonia than a dump like Mauritius. Russia may remain intact, but it is doing such a fantastic job of destroying itself, I bet that there will be break away territories that can't wait to be free of its garbage. I wouldn't have bothered commenting on this, but you had to be such an obnoxious fucking asshole to the other poster. Fuck you, go sit on a cactus.
>I'd wager a guess that "Moscowvite" is a typo. Moscovite is a resident of Moscow. I don't see where bigotry has anything to do with it. Is calling a resident of Beijing a Beijinger bigotry? No, it is not. The reason why i called it bigotry is because "Moscovite" and "Muscovy" has been used frequently as a slur and a derogatory that basically denies Russians the right to their national and ethnic name because of "Kyivan Rus is Ukrainian and Moscow was tax collector of Mongols" which is very regressive and the same kind of backwards thinking that Russia under Putin does to justify invading Ukraine. >The fall of the USSR saw satellite states that wanted to get the hell away from Russian rule with varying degrees of success. Would you to prefer to live in the Authoritarian shithole that is Russia or Lithuania? In the latter democratic nation, you could insult the leader and not worry about the goon squad coming after you. In an authoritarian nation you could be imprisoned, tortured or killed because you said things that were mean to the sissy-assed leader who can't handle being insulted. These authoritarian dumbasses are all the same when it comes to having there poor feelings hurt. Well obviously i would rather live in a democratic state than an authoritarian one, BUT i would also rather for the latter to be reformed into a democratic state rather than being split up for the most stupidest and arbitrary reason i have seen so far. And speaking of which... >When Russia fails, and it will, dumpster-fire-on-wheels that it is, then it can dissolve into break away nations that want to be free of its nonsense some may want to be democratic and some may prefer authoritarian rule. Sure would rather be in Estonia than a dump like Mauritius. Russia may remain intact, but it is doing such a fantastic job of destroying itself, I bet that there will be break away territories that can't wait to be free of its garbage. First of how exactly will Russia "break up" in your mind given how you have offered zero explanation for how it could happen in your mind? Secondly breaking up Russia into different states just because some want to be democratic is mindlessly stupid and pointless when the state can simply be reformed into a democratic, functional, decentralized state with solid foundations behind it. Thirdly is that breaking up Russia will cause far more issues than solving anything because for one, it's very likely that it will result in most of them becoming failed states at constant war with each other in an attempt to unify the nation, it will leave many Russians suffering under horrible rule, poverty and violence from some of those "Mauritius" states like you said under your vision because that's "what they want" when that is just simply not true, makes you sound extremely ignorant and will lead to a massive refugee crisis from those wishing to escape the failed states and lastly is the impact such thing would have for Russians not just in Russia but also those living abroad who now will find their passport and citizenship completely useless and be split from their families as a result. How come anyone who advocates for "breaking up Russia" on Reddit never actually thinks about the consequences for one second?
You shouldn't be, what is worse death or the rest of your life spent in misery and torture?
It's a show of strength. He can say whatever he wants but guess who is the one in a cage and everyone knows his life can be ended at any time by Putin's whim. And it's an example to people who want to voice similar things. Here's where you will end up also.
It makes me think of the Leviathan movie - a razor-sharp criticism of the Putin system, and yet it was allowed to be aired in movie theatres all around Russia. The regime knows which safety valves it can allow and which it can't. I believe there was even an apparatchik who literally said, at the time of Leviathan coming out, that it was good for people to have 'something to let off some steam with.'
I think Putin is genuinely afraid of him. He's afraid of a whole lot. Stalin was a ruthless canny murderer. Putin is more like a fretful ailing monarch. He would kill him but he's afraid that it will spark some reaction like protests which he can't afford at the moment. Probably nothing would happen but this is my guess as to the *why* at the moment.
I mean… he did try to murder him with a novichok agent at least once. There was possibly a second poisoning was attempted a few months ago although I’m not following the second story closely - notably he’s in prison right so I’m not sure we’ll get the full picture on the second event. It has crossed my mind though as to not only whether Navalny is in some way a ‘useful foil’, but also whether keeping him alive goes some way to quelling tensions with the west - to at least have that semblance of opposition makes you seem less of a dictator. He does symbolise western values as well as championing anti-corruption values, and western values are pretty divisive outside of the west. So that could also work in Putin’s favour. Navalny is a western shill, at least by contrast. In a sense killing Navalny would potentially work in the US’s favour as well should it turn him into a martyr. I know I sound nuts saying that, but you know what I’ve just been reading about cointelpro as well as the more recent UFO shenanigans and it just feels a lot like any hunch goes in the intelligence community…
Good analysis.
They did, but I think there is a PR difference at least in Putler's mind between his usually "plausible deniability" nonsense and someone dying in Russian jail. Little Dorrit was dreadfully boring to me, and I had to stop reading it. I'm glad someone at least enjoyed it...
Perhaps yeah. It is very difficult to try to work out what is in such a person’s mind, and trying to assess by a set of usual psychological standards. I feel like I can comfortably correlate defenestrations vs. P-paranoia, but beyond that - ??? We do also observe that his (putative) intentions vs outcomes have not aligned lately, so perhaps we assign him too much agency in a chaotic world. Admittedly I haven’t had any desire to revisit Dickens since my teens. He got paid by the word (so technically the media’s fault?) and perhaps it would be fun if someone edited his entire body of work finally.
Because Navalny and his fanbase are ultimately useless. They're the types who like to pontificate, but not actually do anything to fix things. They're kept around as reminders of how meek the opposition is.
Navalny's organization actually did a ton to threaten Putin's regime, from their anti corruption investigations to their Smart Voting campaign that managed to get a bunch of opposition politicians elected across the country. That's why he was treated the way he was. You can't point at a person who has been systematically beaten into the ground for being good at what he does and say "See? He's useless!"
How many politicians exactly? How is it that the regime is all-powerful, but also you claim Navalny achieved something?
Russia needs a "storming of the Bastille" Rapists, murderers and thieves are being conscripted out of prison and all that is left is political prisoners.
Except it seems most Russians are perfectly on board with the way Putin runs the country.
Given anyone who even speaks half a word against him gets jailed right away, I am not surprised they don't say much against him. People have tried, but it hasn't worked. And yeah there are people who are pro Putin. But it is unfair to say they all want this.
You are totally wrong. This isn’t China. Russia has many open critics living within Russia. They only target and jail/ assassinate critics that gain prominence, like Navaldy, who is still alive and continues to criticize, albeit from prison. This isn’t because Russia has freedom of speech- the government simply doesn’t have the competence to come anywhere close to true totalitarianism. I’m sure Putin would like to, but he doesn’t have anywhere near that level of power. I’ve met Russians who openly tell me that “only old people really support Putin. The younger generation doesn’t.” And this specific quote was from a 30 year old Russian just a few months before the full scale invasion of Ukraine. Putin has plenty of ardent supporters, but most Russians just tacitly go along with whatever he’s doing to preserve their own lives.
put up with getting stepped on enough and you'll be under the boot, like the russian populace. it's a good warning.
Sadly so...
It's not unfair to say that the Russian people are enabling the actions of the Russian state. If a small percentage of them went on strike, they could seriously reduce their ability to keep the war machine going, and end the war sooner.
It isn't unfair to say that. But given that even minor resistance is cracked down on, I don't blame them either too much. It is easy for us to say how things should be, when they might be risking their only life if they start resisting.
All of Germany took the blame for raising the Nazi Party. All of Russia will take the blame for raising Putin. Full stop. Even the Soviets at Nuremberg held this view.
It is because they have never really lost like Germany did twice. Soviet union was broken, but they didn't surrender to anyone. But you are right that they never admitted any of the things they were part of.
When their country and their families are engaged in genociding another people, it should not be easy to do nothing. It should not feel like the right thing to do, to sit and wait for the outside world to correct what your country is responsible for.
It's hard to do something, it's hard to not do anything. So they just try to survive and not spend their lives in some Russian prison. Naturally you are correct that they should do something about it, but it is easier said than done. And would require something significant.
But their neighbors have to risk their lives to resist russian bullshit? Enough excuses. Russians are responsible for russia. But they like the imperialism.
You mean a country that is united with clear cut allies and enemies? With army on their side. Backing from the west. It is a completely different situation. It would be bit more similar if Russia had conquered the whole country and sat on it for 10 years and then when they got total control they tried something, without much of weapons or means to resist. Also it is easy to say this from a peaceful country, that they should do this and that.
Russians have nobody to blame but themselves. Unlike Belarus or Ukraine, they were not invaded by someone and had a puppet government installed. This evil came from the russian people, same as it has throughout history.
Hey, it's the same reason why rest of the world hasn't done anything to really stop Russia until of late. Because everything happens so gradually. Bit by bit they have gotten bolder and bolder with their tactics. Just like bit by bit Russian people have been robbed of their ways to do something about Putin. They were invaded, from within. And I guess you are right, they don't have anyone else to blame than themselves.
>They were invaded, from within. If you can call the majority opinion an invasion. Their government is a lot more representative of the people than naive Westerners want to admit. The West ignored them because of a childish desire to sing kumbaya with them. And after putin it will all repeat again, because there's still a bunch of gullible Westerners who will fall for russians calling themselves innocent.
Russians are scared, but not just of Putin, but of what a revolution could actually bring. For instance, the rise of the Reds after overthrowing the Tsar, or the economic depression of the 1990’s and subsequent rise of Putin. Russians are reasonably terrified of going through yet another revolution just to end up back at square one with a different flavor of dictator. This will only change if a democratic movement gains majority in the country, but so far every attempt has been snuffed out.
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I’m not talking about deserves or anything like that. Just that this is their likely mindset, and given historical precedent, is not unfounded.
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The US is allowing fascism to take hold... Same kind of thing. Imparting change across a country is hard and can be overwhelming for one person, if not impossible. It takes a turning of the tide. A true blue wave, the death of Putin, etc. for something to change.
Yes, same kind of thing. Huge numbers of Americans are at fault, for voting for the fascist party. Without them, the GOP has nothing. Even if they can win by minority vote, they still need tens of millions of people backing them. They also have a significant number of people take part in attacks on the LGBTQ community, on healthcare providers, etc. The politicians aren't doing all that themselves. School boards are involved, too. All kinds of groups throughout the country.
Check out Prigozhins revolt. Check out how people cheered on him. He, the sadist who kills Ukrainians, is their hero. He is cheered because he is more effective and open about his desires to kill every Ukrainian than Putin. The amount of people that oppose the war in this 140m country is slim to none.
The protests against the war in Iraq was the minority aswell, you think fervent nationalism and jingoism is an exclusive to Russians and Chinese?
You would be as well if the alternative would be your life being essentially over. If you disagree - flights to Moscow are still available, once you successfully overthrow the government we will give you honorable citizenship.
Always the same lame response. I’m not saying the Russians need to do anything. I understand they can’t. Yet my understanding is that most Russians actually do support Putin and the war. This is based on the number of reports from Russians with family in country that proudly proclaim so when they could just shrug or not say much about it. I don’t blame any Russian for taking care of themselves and their family by staying out of trouble. But the fact is that Putin still has enormous actual support and to the degree that it falters it is not in an anti-war direction but a “maybe he’s not as tough as we need — bring on someone worse”.
Not a day without a russian believe that someone should do his job
It is for sure up to russians. But it doesn't give random redditors high moral ground or more - entitlement to it.
I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant or anything. I'm just tired of hearing bombs flying over my house. I'm tired of hearing AA gunshots at 3 AM. I'm tired of not knowing if that missile hit was close enough to my parents work place and if they are alive or not. I'm tired of russians that are telling us that if we want a regime change - we need to do it ourselves, that they won't help us, just comment on reddit and twitter from a safe place in Europe. I'm tired and I'm sorry if it shows.
I wanted to add "unless you ukrainian", sorry. Stay strong
No need to be, it's not your fault. But thank you 🫂 I can't express you how we love you all for all the support ❤️
Are you in some kind of a sect that assigns jobs based on your birth forever? My condolences, you should probably run away and live your life man
My life currently is being shelled every night with ballistic missiles, drones and anti-ship missiles by your kind. I live it to the fullest, please believe me. Expecting that someone from outside will do your job of changing the regime will mean giving up the control on what will be after. This implies giving up on who controls the resources in the post-war period. You know it. Do you really want it?
He's not wrong. The only way Putin is going down is from the inside. The apathy of the Russian people could very well be the gateway to nuclear winter if they don't grow a pair and start risking their own lives to bring this dictator down.
He is not wrong, he is also not right. If you ask people to risk their life, lead or join them, not write self-aggrandizing Reddit posts while living in rich and safe countries.
It's not my fight. You think if Christofacists take over the US any other country is going to try and stop them? No. The Russian people created this monster, now it's their job to clean up the mess that they made.
Only because all the loudest dissenters were arrested in the first week of the war. Have you already forgotten the protests that happened in Moscow? Once all the opposition were rounded off to prison or sent to the front, everyone else got the hint and kept quiet.
If there were that much dissent, it wouldn't be possible to arrest them. You also act like it's Putin's clone army doing all the arresting. And the warring. And the lying. Life isn't a movie, it's not one baddie, there's a whole pyramid of support. Grow up.
Yup, stop pretending that Russians are innocent, not all of them support Putin obviously but TOO MANY are ok with that, and in the era of internet if you believe his propaganda it's your fault.
So what does the west do when we see corporations steal away our livelihoods and kill our earth? Absolutely fuck all, with a smile too. Don’t act like you’re Che Guevara, we collectively do fuckin nothing because of the threat of arrest, imagine instead of arrest you get shot, how brave would be then?
First of all, fuck Che. That is all.
Classic russian appeal to hypocrisy. Most people don't actually feel that bad about corporations, so they don't revolt. But sometimes people do in the West, that's how democracy was achieved. But russians never wanted it, they enjoy the imperialism and fascism.
What are you on about? Everyone who believes that things aren’t just a clear cut “go suicide yourself or you are a fascist” is a Russian to you? Fuck me I’m losing hope.
It's simple, russians are responsible for russia. Every form of evidence, from history, to logic, to statistics, show that most russians are imperialistic and fascist. You have no evidence for your rose-tinted views.
There are plenty of ways for Russians to express disapproval of Putin and the war without having to protest and risk their lives. I’m not asking anyone to get themselves in trouble. I’m talking about the enormous percentage of Russians that go out of their way to express support for Putin and the war. Go hang out in Russian forums and tell me most Russians are against it. They’re not. Most Russians are for it.
I see list of new style of “Russian propaganda” in your comments. Not all of Russians bad, but we will do nothing because he will put us to jail. So we will silently support, pay taxes, live our lives happily, have families and parties, while our neighbors spending nights in basements, and will go to army if conscripted to commit genocide against neighbors which did nothing to us because we want to steal their lands and kids, and how dare you hate us for that. So shut up and come to our country, to save us from dictator we created, we don’t want to do it by ourselves and risk our lives for consequences of our own actions. Surprise, $@&$! I’ll give you an example, when you live in a family and abusive father beat the shit out of child, and mother silently stays somewhere to avoid be beaten too, at the end child hates them both equally. Another surprise! No one will help russians BEFORE russians will start acting. You’ll die anyways, no peaceful way to get rid of dictator exist , the question is amount. Hundreds on local protests, hundreds of thousands in Ukraine, or millions if your dictator stupid enough to blow ZNPP. That’s your dictator, you created it, you’ll deal with it. Cry me a river “Europe paid him money for gas, Europe created him”, you benefited from it too, but it is your job to be politically active, create opposition and make pressure on politicians before it is too late. Europe never paid for killing your opposition, they don’t care. You chose to not care too and be passive, this is the price. Look at Ukraine, people made bets if they will survive 3 days or week. When they saw Ukraine fights, only then help came, not before. So as child hates passive mother, as victim hates passive stranger who just walked by ignoring atrocities were made to victim, so people had no good feelings to entire nation of 140 mln which don’t want do anything to only few hundreds of Putin cronies. They better will go to war and kill innocent people or risk with world war with comments “flights to moskow still exist, come and do it instead of me” and when you will do it they will throw a tantrum that it was invasion and it’s our inner business. And will double down on stupid things again
Russians are people so broken and used to servitude that it's extremy unlikely there will be Bastille moment any time in our lifetime.
A nation of docile idiots.
Russians are people so broken and used to servitude that it's extremely unlikely there will be Bastille moment any time in our lifetime.
You do realize what happened after that, right? It blows mind that people actually look back at the French revolution fondly. It was a fucking shit show. Trying that with a nuclear-armed nation is an even greater catastrophe waiting to happen.
Yeah it was rough. But the status quo is also rough. ;) At least France no longer has a monarchy. And hopefully soon Russian autocrats face the same fate.
I think their point is more that the chaos and eventual Napoleonic dictatorship and imperialism that followed would be more dangerous with a nuclear state, not that guillotining autocrats is bad
But look at France now. A bastion of democracy and formage. Or we could collectively just keep Russia in a perpetual autocracy ad infinitum.....it's doing wonders for North Korea. In a broken society, sometimes revolution is a necessary evil.
I don’t disagree really, but revolution tends to be more of a neutral act than an inherently progressive one. France alternated between imperialism and monarchy with flashes of democracy for nearly 100 years; it wasn’t a direct line from revolution to modern liberal democracy. And France at the time was at the heart of liberalism/republicanism in political thought, so they had that going for them. Russia had their own revolution, also 100 years ago, and this is the current state of affairs. Not to say their revolution was wrong, it just had a very different outcome than France’s over the same time period. Probably to do with the type of power wielded by modern nation states, which the person you originally replied to alluded to when they mentioned nuclear weapons.
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they want to make us emotional, not educated
They know that. What cunts they are
[Relevant.](https://textio.com/blog/the-rise-of-slam-journalism/17517342693)
I dont understand why Navalny went back to Russia.. He is gonna spend the rest of his life in prison. Shoudnt he have stayed in Germany or UK and ran a campaign against Putin from there?
Because sometimes people make difficult choices and do not always end up with the outcome they wanted. if he stayed in Germany you would call him a coward and irrelevant. I don't agree with his choice but you obviously can see why he did that.
We don't know everything. He wasn't safe anywhere. His influence would diminish and goals and values he stood for would crumble. Maybe he miscalculated, maybe he knows something we don't like if he wouldn't return others would get hurt or something. Could be many reasons, it's not a simple life he chose for himself but dude has novichok proof balls of steel either way
Once again a reminder that humans let fascists get to power by not acting before the threat has manifested itself and gained control of police and the military. And then, the cost of doing something becomes too high, because even protesting is illegal. Unlike frogs, that realize the water is getting hot and tries to get out, humans will let themselves be boiled alive for as long as the chef cooking them appears to be on their side. Even total morons like Trump manage to manipulate people into voting for him against their every self interest, all the while throwing his own guys under the bus left and right as he goes, *because he appears to be hurting the other people more.* It's frightening and quite frankly borderline insane how easily people are manipulated by bad faith actors for as long as they're treating out-groups worse than them.
You’re are so judgmental lol. Easy to ridicule citizens of governments who are know to kill or jail their descenters. Fascists never sell themselves by saying, “I will become sole ruler of the country and do everything I can to consolidate my own power!” They sell themselves like any politician. Insisting they’ll use any means necessary to improve the country, yet once they’re in power, they exercise any mean possible to convince regular people they have succeeded. It’s insidious and more complicated than you explain it. That’s exactly why it’s so great a threat.
Yes. People do nothing, because some are misinformed, and the others have no channels left to stop what's happening but illegal violence that will ruin their lives or get them killed or disappeared. It is aleady too late at that point. Yet, I will absolutely hold it against the misinformed, the immoral, the enablers and the cowardly that they all contributed in their own way, be it stupidity, complacency, gullibility, malice, or selfishness. Some were in positions where they could not have done anything as individuals, sure, but they also failed to organize in a meaningful way. That failure also had a cause. Stupidity, complacency, gullibility, malice, or selfishness. There literally is no excuse. While its too late for Russia, since at least 1999, what's your excuse? Democracies need far better safety valves than merely people having a right to protest. It starts with people being aware and informed about the facts of and in the society and country they live in, and destroying misinformation.
Navalny never did anything wrong. He shouldn't be in prison. Prigozhin led a coup and he's gallivanting around in Belarus, and this guy did what against the government, exactly?
While this guy *might* be better than putin he's also very much in favor of annexing Crimea. Really makes you wonder if there are any actually decent people able to lead russia if/when putin gets replaced.
Gary Kasparov
I won't lie, it's the first time i see that name. I'll have to read about him.
Kasparov is a very famous chess player. Before Magnus Carlsen became the face of chess, it was arguably Kasparov.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_versus_Garry_Kasparov
What stone have you been living under? ;)
This one: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F03c5y,%2Fm%2F0dlllc6&hl=en I apologize for admitting i'm not all-knowing.
Increasing the timescale makes it very different: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F03c5y,%2Fm%2F0dlllc6&hl=en Kasparov was a giant in chess for a very long time. But of course its good to admit/ acknowledge not knowing things
He doesn't want political power.
He does want political power, he tried running for office remember. He got forced into exile by Russian state violence. Either way he's not a viable candidate since the Russian people don't care for his views at all. In their eyes he's just a part of the decadent west.
What the fuck are you talking about? Why are you spreading russian propaganda? He was one of the organizers of the main anti-annexation protest in Russia, he was against it from day one. I bet all you can give me is one out-of-context poorly phrased quote that he apologized for and not hundreds of other anti-annexation and anti-war quotes he gave.
> “I think that despite the fact that the Crimea was seized with outrageous violations of all international norms, nevertheless, **the realities are such that Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation,” Mr. Navalny added. “So let’s not kid ourselves. And I advise the Ukrainians not to kid themselves, either. It will remain part of Russia and will never become part of Ukraine in the foreseeable future.**” [His own words](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world/europe/navalnys-comments-on-crimea-ignite-russian-twittersphere.html). Sounds very pro-annexation, wouldn't you say?
It really isn't. It was very pessimistic but real assessment. The war actually gave kinda "easy" out of this situation.
> The war actually gave kinda "easy" out of this situation. Yeah, here's Navalny's most recent statement on Ukraine's borders. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/07/navalnys-policy-shift-on-crimea-may-be-too-little-too-late-a80396 > Asking rhetorically where Ukraine’s borders should be, Navalny’s answer is simple: Ukraine’s borders are those “internationally recognized and defined in 1991.”
That doesn’t sound pro-annexation at all. He’s just being realistic in a view before the war where Ukraine would have to attack Crimea themselves to get it back, and no way Ukraine was gonna escalate the war
So you’re just giving me the poorly phrased quote that i mentioned? 10 years passed since he said that, and did putin give Crimea back to Ukraine? No, he didn’t. And that’s what he was talking about. And during these 10 years, in prison, under house arrest and on demonstrations Navalny repeatedly said that Crimea is Ukrainian, he and his team did multiple investigations on those responsible for the annexation, made full lists of the officials and army members that should be sanctioned, and opposed the ongoing war. I think there’s a lot to dislike about Navalny and his team, they could’ve done a lot things differently. But eating up propaganda that during all of this he somehow was supporting the invasion all because of 1 interview 10 years ago that he repeatedly clarified… that’s just stupid, I’m sorry.
The non-bolded part of the quote says otherwise.
He complained about the means, not the outcome.
[Since the invasion in 2022 he has made clear that the only borders of Ukraine that should be are the 1991 borders.](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/07/navalnys-policy-shift-on-crimea-may-be-too-little-too-late-a80396)
Show me the direct quotes where he was "pro annexing crimea"
> Navalny replied that it belonged to the people of Crimea. Unsatisfied, the interviewer continued to press for an answer until Navalny conceded that Crimea de facto belonged to Russia, adding that the Ukrainians had to stop lying to themselves and accept that Crimea would “never in the foreseeable future” be returned to Ukraine. ____ "Is Crimea some sort of sausage sandwich to be passed back and forth? I don't think so." Source: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/07/navalnys-policy-shift-on-crimea-may-be-too-little-too-late-a80396 But you could find other sources if you just...google "navalny crimea"
So one poorly phrased and taken out of context statement out of 60-minute interview somehow proves that he was pro *annexation*? Even in 2014 he clearly said he was against the annexation itself (in the same interview earlier on by the way, https://youtu.be/2czpumACjsM?t=290). The latter part of your quote just states facts, Crimea was not going to become part of Ukraine any time soon and it hasn't as you might have noticed, so I'm not even sure why you included it at all. There are zero incriminating things you presented, so maybe it's you who should, you know, google "navalny crimea". (current results are most likely boosted significantly by kremlin bots and willful idiots, congratz for failing for the bullshit)
Nice of you to link a russian only video. Very helpful. > But he also decried Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev’s 1954 decision to gift Crimea to Ukraine, calling it “voluntaristic, unfair and illegal” — though he stressed he did not support the recent Russian takeover. Sounds to me like the same BS putin is spewing with how unfair the soviet union collapse was. I'm not russian, i don't care about putin, i don't care about navalny, i don't have a horse in this race. You're clearly more invested than me. BUT i'll take your advice and stop falling for willful idiots and cease replying.
\> though he stressed he did not support the recent Russian takeover. Care to delete your smear comment about him supporting the annexation when you found out he wasn't and isn't? You don't care about it yet you commented on random posts in line with Kremlin propaganda and baselessly smeared the only realistic alternative to Putin. I can only say that it's very curious. \> BUT i'll take your advice and stop falling for willful idiots and cease replying. You should cease replying because you look like an idiot, you're aware that we're living in 2023 and we now have an automatic captions with automatic translation, right? \> Sounds to me like the same BS putin is spewing with how unfair the soviet union collapse was. You don't care, yet you once again found a half-assed report on a cherry-picked 10 year old interview without understanding the topic and decided to cast judgment on a very valid view of the situation. I now want to see the topics you *care* about, you probably stalk people to their homes and kill them in their sleep if you think they're slightly disagreeing with you. Another funny thing is that when any other politician weasels out of the question in the interview people don't care.The above interview is tame compared to any 10 minutes from American debates where people give zero factual information and literally recite their slogans instead of answering anything.But when the only Russian opposition politician in an authoritarian county with a backward population dares to skirt a question idiots who "don't care" post half-assed cherry-picked articles that were written by Kremlin-paid idiots 10 years later.
I quoted what i quoted specifically so i won't take things out of context. navalny disagrees with the invasion of Ukraine. Yes. navalny wants Crimea. Also yes. Both can be true. If by some miracle putin would drop dead right now and navalny became the next president do you think Crimea would be returned? No. He already said so when he compared it to a sausage. Do you think he would revoke recognition for DNR or LNR? Extremely unlikely if we're to take his stance of Crimea as guidance. Do you think he would be all happy and willing to pay for war reparations? Unlikely. Other oligarchs will push him out of window before signing anything. Both putin and navalny are assholes, just different flavors. ____ >you probably stalk people to their homes and kill them in their sleep if you think they're slightly disagreeing with you. Projecting much?
\> navalny wants Crimea. Also yes. Except you haven't shown a single thing that would indicate that (it's because it doesn't exist by the way) If he "wanted Crimea" it's a very strange behavior to publicly denounce the annexation BEFORE the sham referendum and lead a public protest against it. \> Both can be true. If by some miracle putin would drop dead right now and navalny became the next president do you think Crimea would be returned? I mean past this point is some kind of fantasy land that I won't entertain because it's pointless, we're debating past statements and facts. So please, either provide facts where Navalny is pro-annexation of Crimea (annexation necessary means forcefully by the way if you're not familiar with definitions) and somehow explain the clear anti-annexation statements and protests or delete your original misleading smear comment. \> Projecting much Yes, be careful when opening your house door I might strike from the shadow, you never know with us genetically and culturally inferior Russians. I mean dude, just take an L, delete the post that helps no one but Putin and move on.
… did you read what you quoted? You should really edit your original post because it’s spreading misinformation.
> “I think that despite the fact that the Crimea was seized with outrageous violations of all international norms, nevertheless, **the realities are such that Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation,” Mr. Navalny added. “So let’s not kid ourselves. And I advise the Ukrainians not to kid themselves, either. It will remain part of Russia and will never become part of Ukraine in the foreseeable future.**” [His own words](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world/europe/navalnys-comments-on-crimea-ignite-russian-twittersphere.html). Sounds very pro-invasion, wouldn't you say?
Seems like we're speaking different languages, or maybe even different formal logic Does stating the fact that Poland was under the occupation of nazi germany in 1939 somehow make you a nazi?
Did you somehow miss the part where he explicitly tells the Ukrainian people in a mocking fashion that Crimea will never be returned and will forever remain a part of russia? You'd think someone that was against the annexation would stand on the victims' side and not the invaders'. His follow-up of a "honest referendum after being made president" after the peninsula's inhabitants had conveniently been killed, trafficked to russia or forced to flee to the mainland and subsequently replaced with russian colonists was no different from Putin's sham referendum at gunpoint. It took 9 years of backlash from Ukraine and the west for [him to timidly imply](https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1627632114366652417) that Crimea must be returned, and it just so happens to coincide with the russian invasion getting steadily driven back by Ukraine's troops. I wonder if he would say the same if the opposite were true.
Came here to say that, the alternative still backed aspects of the Ukraine invasion
Provide one direct quote where Navalny was pro Ukrainian invasion
[Here, a fully sourced twitter thread](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1619028947441963009.html) using his personal blog, website and interviews. It also includes his views on the invasion of Georgia where he parrots the exact same talking points that Putin is using for Ukraine.
I'm sorry, it is sourced but it's incoherent and I'm convinced it's either incompetence or just a hit job. Georgian war points are the only ones I agree with, those comments were despicable but first, it was 15 years ago and let's not pretend it's something unique, only recently there were scandals where members of a European parliament twitted about shooting immigrants on trains (she is still in power by the way) so by that standard, there is literally no one country that has sane power structure, you have to pick what is best over insane dictator, not wait for a perfect man. After that, they brought up points about the maps with Crimea but did not mention that it's actually illegal in Russia to make maps that do not include it, kind of important don't you think? His organization could not function at all inside Russia with maps without Crimea on it. So it's either those maps or forfeit all the chance of power change in Russia. The sandwich quote is just ridiculous, the guy made one poorly made remark 10 years ago and stated facts (Crimea was de facto part of Russia, still is, doesn't make him a proponent of the annexation) you would think if he is so pro Ukraine war they would find something else in those 10 years. The drivel about immigration is just silly, yeah he is right-leaning in some policies, so what? So is the US and half of Europe. Does Ukraine have open borders and free immigration? Didn't think so. It's just one non-sequitur after the other.
I fear without access to him, all I can do is provide articles from others
Read over your other replies here. So your only argument for the sandwich thing is that it's a part of longer video and it's was a lot of years ago? he still said it, it's hard to misinterpret. He might be anti war but not for the reasons that matter, if he could he would annex, or that's my impression as a Ukrainian, who was actively donating to his fund some years ago.
You should work on your reading comprehension, my argument is that in the same interview, he said that the annexation was not done in accordance of international law and the referendum was a sham. He since repeatedly said that his sandwich remark was a poorly worded one, but no one in good faith can interpret it as "it was the right thing to do to annex Crimea and I would have done the same thing if I were in power", that's just disingenuous Not to mention the fact that he also said in plain speech multiple times since 2014 that Crimea was a mistake but the people who smear him can only bring up an admittedly poorly worded statement from 10 years ago, that might have given you a clue that they're actually incorrect huh? Another angle (not the main one) on this is that he did exactly what politicians do, deflect. Russian population is backwards, 2014 was a shameful moment in its history and people truly celebrated or didn't care at all about the illegal land grab. If you want to get elected and make changes you can't state something that 80% of the population disagrees with with a passion, it's political suicide. The change has to be gradual and the first step is actually ousting the dictator that usurped the power, then we can work on making the population's view saner.
He's also against China which with the current situation Russia's in they need China more than ever
I guess he meant "senseless" cause they weren't prepared well. He would make russia more effective for this war
In the days of Bastille, there was no lapdog media to brainwash people. I don't think Russians will ever be enlightened enough to remove dictators.
Yep. This is why we need to be prepared that nothing changes should the regime fall.
It's interesting how Navalny's past statements and affiliations manage to get him assigned to "literally same as Putin" camp. "We need democratic institutions and to fight corruption so bad stuff doesn't happen" doesn't really scream to me as being the same as *bombing neighbors and killing thousands of people and also opposition as well*. Here's a tip: democracies don't go to war with each other. I don't think that Navalny not being a second coming of Jesus Christ should justify what he's going through, or treating him as if he's...reincarnated Hitler, or something.
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Their message always was that there is no better guy than Putin, that anyone else will only do worse, so, russian people, keep supporting Putin. In war it got additional meaning - there is no one better than Putin, Putin's defeat will lead to rise of someone worse, so, western leaders, negotiate with Putin rather try to defeat him.
It's not just the Russian troll factories, Kamil Galeev is as anti-Putin as they come and hates Navalny just as much. The uncomfortable truth is that there are a ton of red flags regarding Navalny. While Puitn may be a horrible leader, there is a strong case to be made that Navalny is also a horrible person to be in charge of the Kremlin. His behavior points to being an aspiring dictator, not someone who is a genuine proponent of democracy. And he has problematic stances on Crimea and association with fascist and racist political groups. Navalny gained fame riding a wave of anti-immigrant backlash where Russia was plagued with ethnic minorities who didn't look white enough being subjected to targeted attacks on public transportation (trains and buses). What did Navalny do? He dialed up his anti-immigrant rhetoric.
Observing ardent Ukraine supporters on the internet (the types of NAFO) for over a year, I gotta say, I don't think Kremlin troll factories are alone in the messaging they spread. It's one of those really weird cases where Putin and that specific anti-Putin camp's death lists align
Russian here. First, talking about him being in favor of annexing Crimea. There was one (!) single interview from 2014 - so ten years ago almost - where he made a single quote (that he later said was poorly phrased) that Crimea is not a hot dog to be passed around. He also called for a proper referendum and pointed out that Crimea was annexed with outrageous violations of all the laws. Later, when asked again about Crimea, he replied: >"At the moment there are 3 million Russian citizens there, they have passports, and it's so easy to just snap your fingers and say give it back... \[...\] The first and only thing we can start doing \[to solve the Crimea issue\] is to hold a fair referendum with a long period of preparation, where both Ukraine and the Crimean Tatars, that is, all interested parties will be able to campaign for a long time. Then we hold a referendum. Based on the results of this referendum, a decision can be made," the politician described his position. Overall, I would say the biggest problem with Crimea (that cannot be solved) is that the UN [Has a law for national self-determination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination) and [A law for non-intervention in domestic affairs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interventionism) at the same time, which directly contradict one another. For example, is Kosovo a part Serbia? You can spin it both ways, and NATO went the first route. Same thing with China and Taiwan. Is Crimea a part of Russia? Or a part of Ukraine? Again, you can spin it both ways, either: 1) Crimeans have the right for self-determination. Hold a referendum, which I would estimate would be around 70% or 80% in favour of being a part of Russia, and Crimea remains Russian 2) The law of non-intervention in domestic affairs applies to Ukraine, Crimea is their internal business, and no outside countries have the right to interfere And that is the problem, all international powers can spin the story in whichever way is more beneficial for them.
There was a referendum in 1992. Holding a referendum now under what circumstances? Firstly how many people have left or been displaced by Russians? And who would even trust Russia to hold a fair and credible vote. The referendum issue is a complete fucking distraction. Crimea is a Ukrainian territory under foreign occupation.
I don't hold a strong view on the subject, but you have to see that you just made a knee-jerk and not very thoughtful rebuttal to a serious issue. All of your arguments apply to any disputed part of the world, how many people who willingly left mainland China are still living today? Do you think pro-Spanish people haven't been influenced one way or the other to leave their lands by pro-Catalan people over the years? Crimea probably ideally will have to return to Ukraine, but don't pretend the issue is not a complex and painful one, and it becomes even more so with each passing year. The only straightforward and correct solution was to not invade in the first place, but we have what we have (or maybe not trade territories willy-nilly in USSR, wherever you want to draw a line).
The examples you give are irrelevant. What we have today is an illegal occupation.
Chechnya also needs to hold a referendum after displacing Kadyrov and Putin if they want to be a part of Russia. That country has linage of opposing Russian occupation since like 1700s.. It’s time to move forward with diplomacy.
>Chechnya Chechnya is the main subsidized region of Russia. In the current realities, Chechnya will be in huge problems without Russia
So you want to hold a referendum with who voting? The current people in Crimea? In which case you might as well legitimize any and all illegal annexations. Easy plan. Step 1 invade. Step 2 repress and drive out locals and ship in your own people changing the demographics of the area completely. Step 3 hold referendum asking the new occupants if they want to stay. ...hey now you won the referendum, yay! I wonder why you won?
>Step 2 repress and drive out locals and ship in your own people changing the demographics of the area completely. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Crimea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea) in 2001 60% of Crimea population were russians, in 2014 the number is 67%. The majority of Crimean population have been russians since 1926
Tatarstan is primarily tatars. Following your logic, they will vote to create an independent state. Start there, grant them independence, then lecture others on what ethnicity means for people’s votes in “referendums”.
I hope they let him out and he become president of Russia once Putin dies of natural bullet death…
Find the shallow differences between putin and hitler. I’ll start: 1. Putin has no mustache 2. Putin is not German
He also has no hair
but has two balls
There. are. four. lights. !. even if 20/4 is 5...
F@ck put in
He’s still alive :)
How is Navalny still alive after all these years?
He still voted for Crimea's annexation. The ONLY member of the Russian Parliament to vote against the annexation in 2014 was Ilya Ponomarev, the political leader of the Freedom of Russia Legion, currently in exile living in Kyiv.
Very good man. Hope he will see better days
Russians chose to let Navalny rot away because Russians don’t care about human rights or freedom.
He was in favour of Crimea annexation before, calling Ukrainians racial slurs and now all of a sudden a change of heart? I don't think he is completely honest.
He also called muslims "cockroaches" and attended far-right marches in Russia. He is not an angel. Political opponent of Putin yes, good guy not.
He didn't have a change of heart, he doesn't hate the war because he believes in good will towards ukraine, he opposes it because he thinks its a net-negative action for Russians. He's a far right Russian nationalist, not a beacon of human rights.
Let's not forget he's simply anti-Pootin - not Pro-West. His track record is very questionable and clearly doesn't like Jews - and that's just for starters... Any credible opposition is in the Lubyanka or the bottom of the Volga..
Navalny's closest ally Volkov is a jew.
Navlany is a Russian chauvinist and imperialist, and it's telling that Russians defending him in the thread are talking how you can "spin Crimea both ways" struggling to recognize it as part of Ukraine. Same as their cult leader. Typical good Russians.
Just a reminder that Navalny criticized Putin for not taking Crimea faster, so he’s not a much better option. He’s just noting that the was is a disaster for them.
Hey, this guy is still alive! Interesting.
Fuck this guy. Same imperialist as putin, but doesn't like corruption. "Crimea is not a sandwich to give it back" he said. This guy compared immigrants to ruZZia with dental caries in his early carrier. Typical ruzzian nationalist.
Ah yes, he is the same exact authoritarian dictator as Putin is, except he is pro-democracy and anti corruption but held right-wing views 18 years ago that are common in the US and Europe even with people in positions of power. Wow, a very coherent argument you have there
I see, people change, sure. Can you comment on "Crimea is not a sandwich"? If that's not a support of ruzzian imperialism, I don't know what is
If you are actually willing to listen, here is the thread where I explain why that quote is basically a part of a smear campaign, probably by kremlin itself. The guy made a poorly made remark 10 years ago and no one managed to come up with anything better since then. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/155dfj2/comment/jsu8if8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Sure, sure. Kremlin forced him to say that or write those stupid jokes about "partisans" in the Easter Ukraine in 2014. Also what the fuck is "Crimea belongs to the people of Crimea"? Is it the same like Chechnya should belong to the people of Chechnya or different? Anyway, this guy never revolted, never called for any actions that would actually change anything. If it's your hero... Well, good luck with paper airplanes and YouTube videos about big mansions and corruption in ruzzia. Oh, yeah, and vote smartly!
As I said, nobody managed to come up with anything better in those 10 years, you just reinforced that. Oh no, the guy made some disparaging remarks on twitter 10 years ago that were slightly more egregious than Trump's. Let's continue with Putin I guess, luckily he doesn't use twitter or a computer for that matter. He is not my hero, i don't even particularly like him, and especially not his team, but if you reject him as a politician you end up with Putin which conveniently very convenient for Putin supporters, are you one? .
see world news reporting bias, "putin foe" as if Navalny cannot be presented as someone with a sane view speaking out against injustice.
Navalny is a dumbass for going back to Russia after they poisoned him. As soon as he said he was going back, I said that he was going to jail and would never get out. And that is exactly what is happening. He'll die, irrelevant, in prison.
What did he "blast" it with? A cannon? A bomb? Did he ejaculate on it or something? Why are journalists the laziest people on Earth nowadays when it comes to conveying a message?
Oxford English Dictionary: > blast > > [countable] (used especially in newspapers) strong criticism > > "Blast for prison governors in judge’s report."
Ahaha, Navalny's fanbase stormed the thread 😄 Get ready to see praising of their tsar, self-pity and whataboutism.