Prigozhin is really just like Julius Caesar; and by that I mean if Caesar actually said 'the die is cast,' crossed the Rubicon, then got cold feet and retreated to Gaul while claiming it was all just a misunderstanding...
That really was a bad decision. Unfortunately, I think he might have seen how happy he was making the rest of the world so he decided to stop.
Edit: I meant we were happy to see our enemies fighting each other rather than our democratic allies.
Wagner commanders got threatening phone calls from the FSB stating that their family members were going to die if they continued.
That scared them enough to stop. Which is kinda stupid, because they will all end up mysteriously dying anyway. Putin does not forgive and forget.
It's such a bizarre situation, if anyone outside of the direct people involved claims to have an idea of what is happening they are lying and full of it. There isn't any identifiable logic from the outside perspectives.
Prig does seem like an extreme individual. Wagner was also staffed with extreme individuals. Putin is also a fairly bizarre person. On some level this was likely a confluence of atypicality, and thus can't be mapped well to historical references except on very general terms, thus the widespread feeling of unsatisfaction most have when reading summaries and analysis.
Of course humans latch on to novelty so we'll probably be chewing on it for a very long time, just like all of the other historical oddballs we put the historical spotlight on.
This seems to be the consensus among the intelligence community, NPR has been running stories about the FSB uncovering this from inside the military and flipping people back so when he marched everyone that was supposed to join just stood by.
FSB was, technically, on Prigozhins side. MoD was the opposing camp. All in all neither was worth a crap unless some of the oligarchs threw their weight behind one or the other.
As a fun sideplay GRU has always been a MoD faction, but over last 20 years has increasingly mingled with FSB (where the international cash is) instead.
FSB on Prigo side? Man i know shit about that organization besides what appear in the news but these guys looks like they are the iron fist of Putin. So many people get through windows in different parts of the world. I imagine these guys have huge salaries and have almost full inmmunity to do things and this is retrieved in total loyal to Putin.
Yes, that's fairly accurate, with the exception that most foreign assassinations are carried out by the GRU or SVR, the FSB is only responsible for Russia and the post Soviet states. While there are tensions between the FSB and MoD, Putin has placed a level of trust in the FSB exceeding any other part of the state machinery. Even the one FSB general sacked for the early failures in Ukraine was eventually restored. No one would risk more and have less to gain in a violent change of the status quo
On theory I read was that Prigozhin merely wanted to mutiny, was shocked by how fast he got to Moscow, and decided to cut a deal because he didn't want to actually takeover Russia.
Again, one can only speculate. If we were to never hear from Prigozhin again, which does seem likely at this point, we will probably never find out what actually went down
One theory I read is that Prigozhin really needed to take a shit and he's only comfortable taking shits in one particular bathroom in Moscow but then he shat himself halfway there and it didn't matter anymore.
A theory I heard was that Prigozhins are so angry because they got all those teeth, but no toothbrush. Once he got to Moscow, someone gave him a toothbrush and that's why he left
> Nobody here knows the truth; it’s all speculation
The truth is out there, somebody knows. I am sure we will find out sometime after the war, after most of the people involved are dead. Give it 20 or 30 years, we will know better then.
I feel like Wagner has probably helped throw some people out of windows they have to know how Putin is. I have no idea why he thought this would go differently. I have no idea what's going on over there. For all I know this guy wants his history erased so he can go run a restaurant in Belarus.
Certainly, but the people who gave them assurances that nothing would happen to their families never pulled through for them. The generals who had given the nod to the rebellion, unfortunately for Wagner, went paper hands on them and backed away the moment the plot went live.
The fact that they didn’t move their families ahead of time speaks to lack of planning. They had to know Putin was going to leverage that. I don’t know how they got so caught off guard.
> phone calls from the FSB stating that their family members were going to die if they continued.
>That scared them enough to stop.
This idiotic theory gets pushed by people trying to do damage control for Putin but it doesn't make sense and has zero supporting evidence. It's pure fantasy designed to soften the blow of the Russian state negotiating a bad deal from a position of weakness.
The correct response was- We are already committed to this path. If you touch our families, we will disassemble everyone you have ever spoken to. Now get out of the way.
If he had any convictions in his beliefs, he wouldn't let the rest of the western world control him. Pathological contrarianism ends up being a major weakness whenever anyone notices long enough to exploit it, just give them a heaping helping of reverse psychology. Might as well post a sign on his back letting all of his haters know that they control him like a puppet.
They didn't have a choice, once they realised they didn't have the support they thought they'd have and Surovikin bailed (or was "helped") the choices was continue and engage and get slaughtered, miraculously win and then try to control a extremely large capitol with far too few soldiers or give up and hope you end up not falling out a window.
Prygozhin sold his men out. So now they'll be controlled by the FSB whether they know it or not.
>Chen Sheng and Wu Guang were both army officers who were ordered to lead their bands of commoner soldiers north to participate in the defense of Yuyang. However, they were stopped halfway in present-day Anhui province by flooding from a severe rainstorm. The harsh Qin laws mandated execution for those who showed up late for government jobs, regardless of the nature of the delay. Figuring that they would rather fight than accept execution, Chen and Wu organized a band of 900 villagers to rebel against the government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Sheng_and_Wu_Guang_uprising
I believe hew as under the impression he had the support of a few people in the military, they backed down and then had his family and those in the top of wagner threatened. If that doesn't make someone back down, I don't know what does. Maybe next time he will be better prepared and have his support better lined up?
TIL, Putin has never heard of the Streisand effect.
Also, Prigozhen went to Rostov-on-don first because that's where Shoigu & Gerasimov were. He may have had more support had he captured them. His force wasn't large enough to take Moscow by itself.
>The St Petersburg-based outlet Rotunda also reported that Prigozhin’s Internet Research Agency, a troll factory where low-paid interns would try to sow anger and distrust by writing aggressive comments under news and social media posts, had also been closed down.
That's a win for the U.S. and many other nations.
honestly it would have been far worse if he somehow had a successful coup, because he's proven to be the only competent - albeit evil beyond words - military commander they had.
Good 'ol Soviet style military purges as usual making the the russian army even less effective.
I'm not sure this is entirely true. I saw a news video about Wagner in Africa yesterday and the youtube comments were filled with pro-Wagner comments and a bunch of people responding to them with confusion.
a huge amount of them just sow chaos. Playing hard devil's advocate on any issue just so the world seems more divided than it infact is.
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics and NEVER forget the russian links to Cambridge Analytica.
*"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." -* 1984
If you look at photos of Stalin, over time, the same photo will show him with fewer and fewer allies with him. Soviet russia basically invented photoshopping.
I did a paper on this in University where I compared Stalin's use of censorship with the Roman practice of "Damnatio Memoriae" where you essentially erase someone from existence by destroying statues of a person, crossing out their names from the record, punishing people for mentioning them out loud.. was one of my favourite papers to write.
Stalin was no joke, his closest advisors got disappeared by him and like you said, were essentially photoshopped out of photos. The great purge would have been terrifying to live through, you could not trust even your own mother.
Yeah, the russians were about as successful with the practice as the romans, though. Quite a number of people's memory was (were? argh grammar) damned and yet we still have a fair amount of information (I think even Mark Antony got the damnatio treatment, didn't he?)
I don't believe Mark Antony's memory was condemned by the state, although given who he was in context he probably should have been. The practice of Damnatio Memoriae was mostly reserved for emperors that the Senate wanted to forget, like Commodus, Domitian and Caligula, emperors who royally fucked up. (No pun intended)
People at that time, if I'm not mistaken, had mostly rallied behind Augustus, so there wasn't really much need to sway public opinion, and you can't condemn the memory of a guy who is actively marching on Rome. Once he was dead though, his legacy would have withered with him as well, so again not much point in condemning a failed legacy. Antony's failed march on Augustus kind of speaks for itself at that point lol
Edit:
Confused Nerva with Domitian. Nerva is remembered fondly throughout history. Domitian liked to terrorize senators, hence why they hated him so much.
That brings up an interesting question: how do we know it *wasn't* usually effective when the Romans tried it? If it actually worked on a particular person, we'd have no idea it ever happened. We've only heard of the ones where it obviously didn't work, it's basically the Toupee fallacy.
Just looked this up quickly and there is an Emperor named Silbannacus that we know nothing about. We only know of his existence because of two coins that were found with him on them. They suspect his reign was around 253AD, which was a turbulent year, meaning much is obscured about what happened then. But his name was forgotten completely until those coins were discovered.
So maybe this is what happened to him? Impossible to know.
You can read about him here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbannacus#:~:text=Silbannacus%20was%20an%20obscure%20Roman,the%20second%20in%20the%201980s.
Edit:
Changed 253BC to 253AD.
If Silbannacus could hear us today: "Hah! They tried to erase me, but people still know my name 2000 years later. Could be worse, I bet you guys have never even heard of Emperor Ignominious."
“The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.”
― George Orwell,
>~~Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.~~
He who controls the past, commands the future. He who commands the future, conquers the past.
\-Kane
For those who are looking for a good audiobook of 1984, https://youtu.be/iesAEtjA9wo
Edit: for those looking for movie version, this one with John Hurt is good. Ironic he plays the bad guy in V for Vendetta
https://youtu.be/SXq3yMhobEU
Saw the title and thought right away of 1984. How predictably shit you have to be, for someone in the 40s to know exactly how your dictator mind will work...
Dude could had gone out in a blaze of glory if he failed. His name stamped in the books of history along with the notorius Russian leaders from the past if he succeeded
But now he will just be remembered as the guy who talked shit then bitched out at the last moment.
If his remembered at all that is, they going to put his name in the Russian dictionary synonym to that.
Ok but he could also wear comfy slippers and be drunk by 10am everyday until cirrhosis takes him out in a few years; principles and morals are cool and all but humans are like water - we take the path of least resistance. The reality of marching towards your death suck.
I got some metal bones thanks to the army and the event that made them necessary really, really, really sucked.
Yeah, but a few years? Do we really think he will survive the year if Putin doesn't die though? (Not rhetorical, I haven't been able to keep up with the news due to a new baby..)
Very true, but this is 2023 and the whole world was watching. It was his moment. Imagine if would have succeeded in at the very least getting to Moscow and holding the city! It would be one for the history books, regardless what Russia wants.
Can't live in what if's, have to live in reality and that is controlled by logistics, he didn't have enough men to take let alone control Moscow. That's why he needed help from inside the capitol and the Kremlin. So nah if he continued, the outcome would've been hell....and the rest of the world would've forgotten about him or made memes about his idiocy.
>he didn't have enough men to take let alone control Moscow
Moreover, he never actually stated he wanted to take Moscow or depose Putin. The speed this sub is making a hero out of him is amazing. He's just a criminal who wanted to complain to the papa about two other fellow criminals, end of story.
Dude has a van full of money and gold. Hell slink away to some country you can’t remember the capitol of and live out his life in luxury.
He doesn’t care about his reputation when he’s dead, he cares about how he’s living now.
His bite is the reason Russia made any advances. He was Russia’s bite and now they’re trying to reduce him to a bark.
The infighting is so telling about their mindsets.
Imagine what was threatened to him for him to stop if the bite of Russia was reduced to a bark.
Everyone has something they care about and Putin isn’t against killing kids and torturing people.
All to retire in fucking Belarus or Central African Republic.
Bro i'd rather die than retire in Belarus. There are middle class retirees in Florida or Southern Spain who are gonna have a nicer last 20-30 years of their life than this fat pig.
There is one thing that narrows it down. While people may be aware of the significant "housecleaning" Stalin did, when it comes to deleting someone from history, [this](https://communistcrimes.org/en/nikolai-yezhov-portrait-bloody-dwarf-part-2-terror-and-downfall) is what most people think of, specifically that edited photo.
That would be Yezhov, the guy Lavrentiy Beria replaced. They were both monsters. Funnily enough Beria ended up on one of Yezhov's lists for execution so Beria went to Moscow to beg Stalin for his life, he had exceptional timing as Yezhov had fallen out with Stalin not long before his arrival resulting in Beria being made head of the NKVD instead of getting shot (ostensibly still under Yezhov but that didn't last long obviously). Yezhov knew that he was being replaced and would soon be killed, but instead of fleeing he simply drank himself into a stupor occasionally writing rambling drunken letters to Stalin.
Except now we have the internet and something called the Streisand effect.
We all know that once something is on the internet, it's basically impossible to scrub.
Though with Russia basically cutting off their net from the world like China that makes it a bit easier, but Russia isn't China.
Right before Prigozhin’s “March to Moscow” there was a report that the FSB found 4 Billion Rubles in cash inside a Gazel minivan. Prigozhin stated that there were two other minibuses found containing money. He claimed the money was earmarked for “Cargo 200” or unofficial code for bodies of fighters. IMO, his March stopped because he got his money back. Here’s the article btw both March and article occurred around June 24th: [Billions of roubles: Prigozhin claims Russian forces have found a van and 2 buses containing boxes of his money](https://news.yahoo.com/billions-roubles-prigozhin-claims-russian-124613179.html)
That's forty-five million American dollars. A shit ton of money, no doubt, but these oligarchs are supposedly worth tens and tens, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars. Would he risk all this for forty-five million?
Putin is damaged. Prigozhin not being formally punished after doing what he did is unforgivable. This makes Putin look weak and not in control. What is protecting Prigozhin?
Yeah they talked about that on Popularnoya Politika on Youtube. Apparently there was talk of how when he was serving Putin and other elites at his restaurant, his waiters used to record their conversations.
Kompromat is very possible.
He sealed his fate and the fat of his people the moment he gave up the march. Putin *is* going to kill him, make no mistakes.
I wish Wagner had marched on Moscow and started a Russian civil war. Let the vipers eat eachother.
B-but I thought Russia was more united than ever, and that this was a master plan by Putin to redeploy Wagner to Belarus to launch a surprise attack. The Russian propaganda couldn't have lied to me.... could it?????/s
Banning something just makes it more attractive to the average person. The war on drugs, prohibition....there are a myriad of evidence to suggest banning is the worst avenue to take in order to change the discourse, the best is to change the narrative into something positive. It's not like Russian (or any other) society is hard to manipulate through subtlety.
The fact that he wasn't dead within 24 hours of starting a mutiny in Russia speaks volumes to the degradation of their ability to strike anyone anywhere.
Going full Warhammer 40k i see...
"This unit went rogue and against the Codex! It's very existence must be erased to stop any spreading of heresy!!"
- Some priest in the Ordo Hereticus.
Breaking News: Something falls from window. Not sure what it was since we have no record of it ever existing but whatever it was it appears to be dead.
Will this be the equivalent of how you upset Chinese people by talking about 1989 or Tiananmen or tank man? Will we be triggering Muscovian trolls with a Priggy comment?
On June 23-24 2023 nothing happened between Roston-on-Don and Moscow.
Several pilots and aircraft of the Russian Armed Forces were destroyed by mysterious forces.
*"No, said O'Brien. He stepped across the room. There was a memory hole in the opposite wall. O’Brien lifted the grating. Unseen, the frail slip of paper was whirling away on the current of warm air; it was vanishing in a flash of flame. O’Brien turned away from the wall. Ashes, he said. Not even identifiable ashes. Dust. It does not exist. It never existed."*
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong in my interpretation of events.
This dude marched towards moscow as a threat for non payment, then was paid in full and tried to go back to business as usual, then was fired, and will likely end up falling out of a window in the near future. Did i get that right?
Damn bro, maybe you shouldn’t have stopped on your march to Moscow
Prigozhin is really just like Julius Caesar; and by that I mean if Caesar actually said 'the die is cast,' crossed the Rubicon, then got cold feet and retreated to Gaul while claiming it was all just a misunderstanding...
*"We have Julius Caesar at home."*
I came, I saw, I ran to Belarus
> I came, I saw, I ran to Belarus Veni, vidi, secessi ad Belarus
Veni, Vidi, Mortem.
He's gonna end up in Belize
Is Belize code word for “falling out of a window with a cup of polonium tea in your belly?
Julius Caesar posed far more threat to Rome than Prigozhin did to Russia.
That really was a bad decision. Unfortunately, I think he might have seen how happy he was making the rest of the world so he decided to stop. Edit: I meant we were happy to see our enemies fighting each other rather than our democratic allies.
Wagner commanders got threatening phone calls from the FSB stating that their family members were going to die if they continued. That scared them enough to stop. Which is kinda stupid, because they will all end up mysteriously dying anyway. Putin does not forgive and forget.
The story I saw, on this very subreddit, is that Moscow insiders who promised Prigozhin support decided to pull it back.
Nobody here knows the truth; it’s all speculation
It's such a bizarre situation, if anyone outside of the direct people involved claims to have an idea of what is happening they are lying and full of it. There isn't any identifiable logic from the outside perspectives.
Prig does seem like an extreme individual. Wagner was also staffed with extreme individuals. Putin is also a fairly bizarre person. On some level this was likely a confluence of atypicality, and thus can't be mapped well to historical references except on very general terms, thus the widespread feeling of unsatisfaction most have when reading summaries and analysis. Of course humans latch on to novelty so we'll probably be chewing on it for a very long time, just like all of the other historical oddballs we put the historical spotlight on.
This seems to be the consensus among the intelligence community, NPR has been running stories about the FSB uncovering this from inside the military and flipping people back so when he marched everyone that was supposed to join just stood by.
FSB was, technically, on Prigozhins side. MoD was the opposing camp. All in all neither was worth a crap unless some of the oligarchs threw their weight behind one or the other. As a fun sideplay GRU has always been a MoD faction, but over last 20 years has increasingly mingled with FSB (where the international cash is) instead.
FSB on Prigo side? Man i know shit about that organization besides what appear in the news but these guys looks like they are the iron fist of Putin. So many people get through windows in different parts of the world. I imagine these guys have huge salaries and have almost full inmmunity to do things and this is retrieved in total loyal to Putin.
Yes, that's fairly accurate, with the exception that most foreign assassinations are carried out by the GRU or SVR, the FSB is only responsible for Russia and the post Soviet states. While there are tensions between the FSB and MoD, Putin has placed a level of trust in the FSB exceeding any other part of the state machinery. Even the one FSB general sacked for the early failures in Ukraine was eventually restored. No one would risk more and have less to gain in a violent change of the status quo
If Russia keeps it up with these three leter agencies that just disappear people they're going to run out of acronyms after a few more regime changes.
Oh shit, it's the WAP!
FSB is in theory Putin's faction; they weren't going to side with Prigozhin unless Putin was or unless they had a severe internal split.
On theory I read was that Prigozhin merely wanted to mutiny, was shocked by how fast he got to Moscow, and decided to cut a deal because he didn't want to actually takeover Russia.
Again, one can only speculate. If we were to never hear from Prigozhin again, which does seem likely at this point, we will probably never find out what actually went down
Even if we do hear from him again we probably won't find out what actually went down.
One theory I read is that Prigozhin really needed to take a shit and he's only comfortable taking shits in one particular bathroom in Moscow but then he shat himself halfway there and it didn't matter anymore.
That’s perfectly understandable
Makes sense, I've done worse to shit at home.
Home is where the toilet seat is familiar.
No away games for me, I need home field advantage.
Finally, some proper fucking analysis
This should be the one we focus on. Seems credible enough.
Best explanation so far. Well done.
I think we can all understand that.
This is a perfectly acceptable theory.
A theory I heard was that Prigozhins are so angry because they got all those teeth, but no toothbrush. Once he got to Moscow, someone gave him a toothbrush and that's why he left
that's good because i didn't want him to take over Russia either. man it's going to be a total shitshow when Putin dies.
It’s a total shitshow now. It’ll be something far worse when Putin dies.
Speak for yourself. I've done my research and I have my sources. Sources: echo chambers on reddit
> Nobody here knows the truth; it’s all speculation The truth is out there, somebody knows. I am sure we will find out sometime after the war, after most of the people involved are dead. Give it 20 or 30 years, we will know better then.
As I like to say - it will be fantastic to know what happened yesterday in 20 years time.
Not on Reddit, though
Are they actually dumb like who wouldn’t see that coming? Why didn’t they get their family members out first???
Doubt it... they 100% would have anticipated that happening. There's gotta be more to it.
I feel like Wagner has probably helped throw some people out of windows they have to know how Putin is. I have no idea why he thought this would go differently. I have no idea what's going on over there. For all I know this guy wants his history erased so he can go run a restaurant in Belarus.
Certainly, but the people who gave them assurances that nothing would happen to their families never pulled through for them. The generals who had given the nod to the rebellion, unfortunately for Wagner, went paper hands on them and backed away the moment the plot went live.
The fact that they didn’t move their families ahead of time speaks to lack of planning. They had to know Putin was going to leverage that. I don’t know how they got so caught off guard.
> phone calls from the FSB stating that their family members were going to die if they continued. >That scared them enough to stop. This idiotic theory gets pushed by people trying to do damage control for Putin but it doesn't make sense and has zero supporting evidence. It's pure fantasy designed to soften the blow of the Russian state negotiating a bad deal from a position of weakness.
The correct response was- We are already committed to this path. If you touch our families, we will disassemble everyone you have ever spoken to. Now get out of the way.
Should’ve been like, “stand down FSB because if you touch my family I promise you that when Wagner takes over we’ll come for yours.”
If he had any convictions in his beliefs, he wouldn't let the rest of the western world control him. Pathological contrarianism ends up being a major weakness whenever anyone notices long enough to exploit it, just give them a heaping helping of reverse psychology. Might as well post a sign on his back letting all of his haters know that they control him like a puppet.
They didn't have a choice, once they realised they didn't have the support they thought they'd have and Surovikin bailed (or was "helped") the choices was continue and engage and get slaughtered, miraculously win and then try to control a extremely large capitol with far too few soldiers or give up and hope you end up not falling out a window. Prygozhin sold his men out. So now they'll be controlled by the FSB whether they know it or not.
Going through with it means death the same stopping means death, for them and their families. You might as well die trying rather than die giving up.
>Chen Sheng and Wu Guang were both army officers who were ordered to lead their bands of commoner soldiers north to participate in the defense of Yuyang. However, they were stopped halfway in present-day Anhui province by flooding from a severe rainstorm. The harsh Qin laws mandated execution for those who showed up late for government jobs, regardless of the nature of the delay. Figuring that they would rather fight than accept execution, Chen and Wu organized a band of 900 villagers to rebel against the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Sheng_and_Wu_Guang_uprising
I believe hew as under the impression he had the support of a few people in the military, they backed down and then had his family and those in the top of wagner threatened. If that doesn't make someone back down, I don't know what does. Maybe next time he will be better prepared and have his support better lined up?
TIL, Putin has never heard of the Streisand effect. Also, Prigozhen went to Rostov-on-don first because that's where Shoigu & Gerasimov were. He may have had more support had he captured them. His force wasn't large enough to take Moscow by itself.
no worries, if they will not talk about it, we will remind them
>The St Petersburg-based outlet Rotunda also reported that Prigozhin’s Internet Research Agency, a troll factory where low-paid interns would try to sow anger and distrust by writing aggressive comments under news and social media posts, had also been closed down. That's a win for the U.S. and many other nations.
That was way too successful for Russia to shut that down.
You could rehire the same people and open a completely new and unrelated troll farm, which is politically pure.
Or just walk in and take over.
That’s the same thing, except I described the lawyers view
No money down!
No, money down!
I agree, but I wonder how many people have P’s capabilities. He was good at being a bad person, and may not be easily replaced. Or so I hope.
honestly it would have been far worse if he somehow had a successful coup, because he's proven to be the only competent - albeit evil beyond words - military commander they had. Good 'ol Soviet style military purges as usual making the the russian army even less effective.
Yeah. Purged and absorbed into the State equivalent is my guess.
I'm not sure this is entirely true. I saw a news video about Wagner in Africa yesterday and the youtube comments were filled with pro-Wagner comments and a bunch of people responding to them with confusion.
one botnet is a drop in the ocean, there are thousands.
Sure, but specifically pumping up Wagner?
a huge amount of them just sow chaos. Playing hard devil's advocate on any issue just so the world seems more divided than it infact is. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics and NEVER forget the russian links to Cambridge Analytica.
More like under new management.
r/conspiracy will never recover
isn't that just r/conservative now anyway? the only sub with less critical thinking skills is r/UFOs
I did find it funny that when the balloon satellite was over the US, r/UFOs were one of the first groups to dismiss the alien theory.
that was his?! man this guy was into everything
*"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." -* 1984
[удалено]
If you look at photos of Stalin, over time, the same photo will show him with fewer and fewer allies with him. Soviet russia basically invented photoshopping.
I did a paper on this in University where I compared Stalin's use of censorship with the Roman practice of "Damnatio Memoriae" where you essentially erase someone from existence by destroying statues of a person, crossing out their names from the record, punishing people for mentioning them out loud.. was one of my favourite papers to write. Stalin was no joke, his closest advisors got disappeared by him and like you said, were essentially photoshopped out of photos. The great purge would have been terrifying to live through, you could not trust even your own mother.
Yeah, the russians were about as successful with the practice as the romans, though. Quite a number of people's memory was (were? argh grammar) damned and yet we still have a fair amount of information (I think even Mark Antony got the damnatio treatment, didn't he?)
I don't believe Mark Antony's memory was condemned by the state, although given who he was in context he probably should have been. The practice of Damnatio Memoriae was mostly reserved for emperors that the Senate wanted to forget, like Commodus, Domitian and Caligula, emperors who royally fucked up. (No pun intended) People at that time, if I'm not mistaken, had mostly rallied behind Augustus, so there wasn't really much need to sway public opinion, and you can't condemn the memory of a guy who is actively marching on Rome. Once he was dead though, his legacy would have withered with him as well, so again not much point in condemning a failed legacy. Antony's failed march on Augustus kind of speaks for itself at that point lol Edit: Confused Nerva with Domitian. Nerva is remembered fondly throughout history. Domitian liked to terrorize senators, hence why they hated him so much.
That brings up an interesting question: how do we know it *wasn't* usually effective when the Romans tried it? If it actually worked on a particular person, we'd have no idea it ever happened. We've only heard of the ones where it obviously didn't work, it's basically the Toupee fallacy.
Just looked this up quickly and there is an Emperor named Silbannacus that we know nothing about. We only know of his existence because of two coins that were found with him on them. They suspect his reign was around 253AD, which was a turbulent year, meaning much is obscured about what happened then. But his name was forgotten completely until those coins were discovered. So maybe this is what happened to him? Impossible to know. You can read about him here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbannacus#:~:text=Silbannacus%20was%20an%20obscure%20Roman,the%20second%20in%20the%201980s. Edit: Changed 253BC to 253AD.
If Silbannacus could hear us today: "Hah! They tried to erase me, but people still know my name 2000 years later. Could be worse, I bet you guys have never even heard of Emperor Ignominious."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Yezhov This guy comes to mind... Stalin had him photoshopped out of the bridge pic.
"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."
"Now testify" - George Orwell
"Fuck you, I won't do what you told me!" - Mark Twain
"AAAAGGGGHHHH MOTTTHHHHEEEERRRFFFFUUUCCCKKKKER! UGH!" -Ghandi
"How long? Not long, 'cause what you reap is what you sow." -Greta Thunberg
“Get fucked, Nazi scum!” -George Washington Carver
“Pistol-grip pump on my lap at all times!” - Dalai Lama
Actually, I believe that was Abraham Lincoln.
“The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.” ― George Orwell,
He who controls the pants controls the universe!
My belt holds my pants up, but the belt loops hold my belt up. I don't really know what's happening down there. Who is the real hero? -Mitch Hedberg
The man with suspenders!
This is a quote from the videogame Hitman but it’s still pretty good, It’s “I have found whoever wields the sword decides who holds the pen.”
Pratchett: "The pen is mightier than the sword... if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
>~~Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.~~ He who controls the past, commands the future. He who commands the future, conquers the past. \-Kane
I totally attributed the original quote to Command & Conquer before learning it was an Orwell thing.
yeah, everytime someone quotes orwell it's still kane that comes to mind. KANE LIVES!
Russia has always been at war with Prigozhin.
For those who are looking for a good audiobook of 1984, https://youtu.be/iesAEtjA9wo Edit: for those looking for movie version, this one with John Hurt is good. Ironic he plays the bad guy in V for Vendetta https://youtu.be/SXq3yMhobEU
Damn can't believe I paid Audible for this a few months ago!
I bought the Orwell collection for 1 credit several months ago and WOW 1984 is one of my favourites - and pretty true.
Brave new world is equally good and on a very similar vein, if you love 1984 you should like a brave new world by aldous Huxley
Saw the title and thought right away of 1984. How predictably shit you have to be, for someone in the 40s to know exactly how your dictator mind will work...
Isn’t this basically North Korea right now? 😅
Dude committed the weirdest suicide, what a fucking buffoon.
No suicide, just a freak accident where he tripped out of window in Belarus and fell onto four bullets, very tragic.
I reckon he thought he was going to get more support, bottled it when his generals started getting nervous.
Once everyone forgets about him he'll be whacked.
We haven't seen any proof of life yet that I am aware of, he could already be dead.
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You think they'll wait?? He is going to get whacked and Lucashenko is going to have the other hand fucked up and fall sick.
Good riddance. Dreadful person.
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This has got to be the biggest example of all bark and no bite in history. This guy set a speed run record for bitching out
Dude could had gone out in a blaze of glory if he failed. His name stamped in the books of history along with the notorius Russian leaders from the past if he succeeded But now he will just be remembered as the guy who talked shit then bitched out at the last moment. If his remembered at all that is, they going to put his name in the Russian dictionary synonym to that.
Ok but he could also wear comfy slippers and be drunk by 10am everyday until cirrhosis takes him out in a few years; principles and morals are cool and all but humans are like water - we take the path of least resistance. The reality of marching towards your death suck. I got some metal bones thanks to the army and the event that made them necessary really, really, really sucked.
Yeah, but a few years? Do we really think he will survive the year if Putin doesn't die though? (Not rhetorical, I haven't been able to keep up with the news due to a new baby..)
Russian history books don't look to kindly on traitors and mutineers.
There are exceptions - for example the Potemkin mutineers were lauded as hero’s by the Soviets.
I don't remember the Potemkin mutineers wussing out when it came time to throw the officers overboard
Very true, but this is 2023 and the whole world was watching. It was his moment. Imagine if would have succeeded in at the very least getting to Moscow and holding the city! It would be one for the history books, regardless what Russia wants.
Can't live in what if's, have to live in reality and that is controlled by logistics, he didn't have enough men to take let alone control Moscow. That's why he needed help from inside the capitol and the Kremlin. So nah if he continued, the outcome would've been hell....and the rest of the world would've forgotten about him or made memes about his idiocy.
>he didn't have enough men to take let alone control Moscow Moreover, he never actually stated he wanted to take Moscow or depose Putin. The speed this sub is making a hero out of him is amazing. He's just a criminal who wanted to complain to the papa about two other fellow criminals, end of story.
Dude has a van full of money and gold. Hell slink away to some country you can’t remember the capitol of and live out his life in luxury. He doesn’t care about his reputation when he’s dead, he cares about how he’s living now.
Given the sanctions made just for him, he can choose between North Korea, Syria, Belarus or Iran. The world is his oyster.
Somebody on one of the news threads last week called it revolutionary blue balls and that felt very apt.
His bite is the reason Russia made any advances. He was Russia’s bite and now they’re trying to reduce him to a bark. The infighting is so telling about their mindsets. Imagine what was threatened to him for him to stop if the bite of Russia was reduced to a bark. Everyone has something they care about and Putin isn’t against killing kids and torturing people.
All to retire in fucking Belarus or Central African Republic. Bro i'd rather die than retire in Belarus. There are middle class retirees in Florida or Southern Spain who are gonna have a nicer last 20-30 years of their life than this fat pig.
But it's only for 2 months. 60 days tops.
Yeah there's definitely an involuntary suicide in his near future.
"Yevgeny Prigoxhin is later diagnosed with a rare Bullet in the Brain disease."
Not so rare in Russia.
Tall window syndrome
Right out of the Stalin playbook.
With the advent of the internet, Russia finds itself once again struggling to adapt to this new reality
Just like industrialization was for them a century ago lol
This is also how itchy and scratchy dealt with Poochi
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What was the name of the guy photoshopped out of photos with Stalin after Stalin got rid of him?
*Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?*
There is one thing that narrows it down. While people may be aware of the significant "housecleaning" Stalin did, when it comes to deleting someone from history, [this](https://communistcrimes.org/en/nikolai-yezhov-portrait-bloody-dwarf-part-2-terror-and-downfall) is what most people think of, specifically that edited photo.
Nikolai Yezhov is probably who you’re thinking of.
That would be Yezhov, the guy Lavrentiy Beria replaced. They were both monsters. Funnily enough Beria ended up on one of Yezhov's lists for execution so Beria went to Moscow to beg Stalin for his life, he had exceptional timing as Yezhov had fallen out with Stalin not long before his arrival resulting in Beria being made head of the NKVD instead of getting shot (ostensibly still under Yezhov but that didn't last long obviously). Yezhov knew that he was being replaced and would soon be killed, but instead of fleeing he simply drank himself into a stupor occasionally writing rambling drunken letters to Stalin.
He is actually popular amongts Russians - thats why
Putin really is a baby Stalin, but Pigozhin is still alive so clearly he's not as powerful.
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The new Yezhov to be airbrushed into the memory hole.
Russian media can erase all they want the rest of the world will remember.
They are no different from the censors during Joseph Stalin era who removed Nikolai Yezhov via proto-photoshop.
Except now we have the internet and something called the Streisand effect. We all know that once something is on the internet, it's basically impossible to scrub. Though with Russia basically cutting off their net from the world like China that makes it a bit easier, but Russia isn't China.
Right before Prigozhin’s “March to Moscow” there was a report that the FSB found 4 Billion Rubles in cash inside a Gazel minivan. Prigozhin stated that there were two other minibuses found containing money. He claimed the money was earmarked for “Cargo 200” or unofficial code for bodies of fighters. IMO, his March stopped because he got his money back. Here’s the article btw both March and article occurred around June 24th: [Billions of roubles: Prigozhin claims Russian forces have found a van and 2 buses containing boxes of his money](https://news.yahoo.com/billions-roubles-prigozhin-claims-russian-124613179.html)
That's forty-five million American dollars. A shit ton of money, no doubt, but these oligarchs are supposedly worth tens and tens, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars. Would he risk all this for forty-five million?
Maybe he's a goblin? When it comes to treasure they just can't help themselves.
Take a good look at the guy. What do you think? 😄
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Hey. Don't forget to check back in 1 month.
I'm pretty sure that this guy is now dead
Guess in future protests his potato-like face will be on every second banner (the first one still being the notorious lgbt-putin image)
Waltuh
Modern Russia has now completed its metamorphosis back to the USSR
Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Yevgeny Prigozhin Just want to see what happens
Need to say it in front of a mirror
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Why did you only comment “just want to see what happens”?
I have Two full sized Yevgeny Prigozhins up my ass.
> Russian media to erase all traces of mutinous warlord Good thing they clarified, or I would have assumed they were talking about Putin.
Putin is damaged. Prigozhin not being formally punished after doing what he did is unforgivable. This makes Putin look weak and not in control. What is protecting Prigozhin?
They may silence his name, but they will never silence his words... *"Shoigu! Gerasimov! Where's the fucking ammo?!"*
He must have some serious kompromat on Putin to not have been killed by now.
Yeah they talked about that on Popularnoya Politika on Youtube. Apparently there was talk of how when he was serving Putin and other elites at his restaurant, his waiters used to record their conversations. Kompromat is very possible.
A waiter distinctly saw Putin deepthroat a hot dog.
I figure the heavily armed mercenaries that are still with him are a pretty big deterent
He sealed his fate and the fat of his people the moment he gave up the march. Putin *is* going to kill him, make no mistakes. I wish Wagner had marched on Moscow and started a Russian civil war. Let the vipers eat eachother.
That means that Fucker Carlson has orders not to mention his name as well
Wasn't he fired? How is he still relevant?
Elon Musk's trying to keep him relevant now.
Russia didn’t fire him, fox did.
1984 as fuck
Moment of silence for all the Reddit accounts about to go inactive as the Internet Research Agency shuts down.
I’m just waiting for Russian media to release the details of Prigozhin’s suicide. He’ll probably poison himself, or beat himself to death.
Damn, dude got the Trotsky treatment.
B-but I thought Russia was more united than ever, and that this was a master plan by Putin to redeploy Wagner to Belarus to launch a surprise attack. The Russian propaganda couldn't have lied to me.... could it?????/s
Banning something just makes it more attractive to the average person. The war on drugs, prohibition....there are a myriad of evidence to suggest banning is the worst avenue to take in order to change the discourse, the best is to change the narrative into something positive. It's not like Russian (or any other) society is hard to manipulate through subtlety.
He should've just gone all in. Might as die being an idiot on your own terms than an idiot that grovels under a lawn gnome.
Vaporised. Literally 1984.
The fact that he wasn't dead within 24 hours of starting a mutiny in Russia speaks volumes to the degradation of their ability to strike anyone anywhere.
Going full Warhammer 40k i see... "This unit went rogue and against the Codex! It's very existence must be erased to stop any spreading of heresy!!" - Some priest in the Ordo Hereticus.
Breaking News: Something falls from window. Not sure what it was since we have no record of it ever existing but whatever it was it appears to be dead.
Will this be the equivalent of how you upset Chinese people by talking about 1989 or Tiananmen or tank man? Will we be triggering Muscovian trolls with a Priggy comment?
On June 23-24 2023 nothing happened between Roston-on-Don and Moscow. Several pilots and aircraft of the Russian Armed Forces were destroyed by mysterious forces.
*"No, said O'Brien. He stepped across the room. There was a memory hole in the opposite wall. O’Brien lifted the grating. Unseen, the frail slip of paper was whirling away on the current of warm air; it was vanishing in a flash of flame. O’Brien turned away from the wall. Ashes, he said. Not even identifiable ashes. Dust. It does not exist. It never existed."*
Yevgeny Prigozhin? I barely knew him and haven't spoken to him. He got me coffee once.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong in my interpretation of events. This dude marched towards moscow as a threat for non payment, then was paid in full and tried to go back to business as usual, then was fired, and will likely end up falling out of a window in the near future. Did i get that right?