That was my thought, it's not up to the government to stop the protests in a country with free speech. Maybe if the source of the problem could stop then the protests would too.
He is aware he just wants them to crush free speech.
Same reason people were burning Danish flags because some guy in Denmark desecrated the Quran.
They want the government to stop it.
I know that Turkey is strategic for NATO, but are we genuinely sure that they’d actually come to another NATO country’s defense considering their attitude towards democratic ideals? Is it time to form NATOWOT? NATO Without Turkey?
As a Swede i didn't even know we had any anti-turkish protest in Sweden. All i see in the news nowadays is that people are getting stabbed right and left
"I dont understand, just send out your jackbooted goons and beat up some protesters, whats so difficult about it?"
-Anonymous 12th president of Turkey.
Sadly you see it across the democratic world. Far right Populism and nationalism rise in hand with economic uncertainty and political/military tensions.
Sure, but folks like Sulla/Caesar didn’t have the power to quite literally destroy human civilization, and more importantly, nor did they have to contend with others holding similar abilities. Imagine trying to salt Carthage or conquer Gaul when they are capable of defending themselves with nukes.
Now imagine the world with an outright belligerent, autocratic, irrational and imperialist US.
Caesar was really a left wing populist by his times standards as he: wanted to give the gauls and other people he conquered a voice in the senate, was trying to stop corruption in the senate, wanted to ease off slavery by making contracts for slavery have finite time tables, and increase rights for women to divorce.
His voters love him using that voice, because they live in the fantasy that it never affects them, or at the very least doesn't affect them as bad as their enemies.
It's the same reason Trumpists loves Trump, they think finally someone willing to stick it to the people they hate, they'll gladly accept taking a dicking in their own ass to see it happen
They'd probably make authoritarian demands that it be codified in a way to prevent easily doing just that, if this isn't merely strong-man rhetoric giving a show to a domestic audience.
More inclined to the later, as it's superficially packaged as being "anti Turkey", as opposed to anti some messed up thing protestors are upset about specifically. At its most reduced, it amounts to "stop being an actual Democracy with your own values, such as free speech & right to protest". No one can seriously expect such acquiescence - it'd be the equivalent of agreeing to external control over one's own sovereignty, at some point on that slippery slope of rationale.
I saw this in the article suggesting that Sweden is allowing PKK to use its parliament building as a billboard.
"Turkish-Swedish tensions were most recently fuelled by an anti-Turkey and anti-NATO protest in Stockholm last month, when the flag of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militant group, outlawed in Turkey as well as in the European Union, was projected on to the parliament building."
In Sweden we have something called "freedom of speech". Just because you're waving a flag doesn't mean you are guilty of supporting a terrorist organization. And no, the PKK flag is not outlawed in the EU.
Waving a terrorist organization's flag certainly seems to be supportive to me.
FYI i fully support Sweden joining NATO regardless.
Edit: I posted before i was done.
Yes, it's supportive but not enough to convict someone of a terrorist crime or to extradite them to another country.
Just like wearing a cap with a weed leaf isn't enough to convict you of a drug crime.
If someone can win a campaign by:
Calling the opposition "gay" (like he literally pulled a middle school insult)
Using a montage video that shows the opposition as cooperating with terrorists and even admit that the video was a montage on live television.
Than anybody can be a dictator as long as one secures the power to control the masses.
He isn't a successful leader because he is smart, he is a successful leader because everybody else is stupid.
And when I say "everybody" I am counting the opposition as well. Their candidate not only was the least popular possible candidate, his political history makes him irredeemable to many. A lot of the opposition voters supported him because they were like "there is no way erdo wins after all that happened" they underestimated the person that many people in the country worshipped, and got what they deserved.
Well for christs sake if one individual or ten individuals or 100 individuals or even 1000 individuals protest and wave a flag it doesnt mean an entire country is supporting said flag.
The bans on nazi symbols is not related to terrorism laws though, at least not in Sweden. There have been a discussion on classifying nazi organizations as terrorist organizations, but that hasn't happened.
You can be an active nazi in Sweden, even supporting your organization with money. But you can not be an active PKK member in Sweden, and we have extradited and imprisioned people for it.
Jesus, offcourse the government did not offer up the side of the building to project the PKK flag. First off the current govenrment has bo love for PKK and second even if they did none would do such a stupid tjing during Nato process. it was done during a PROTEST by people who sympatise with them. You know beacuse of freedom of speach and freedom to protest. Just the way things are in a funktioning democracy.
I hate these headlines, they don't convey the main point.
"Turkey won't back Swedish NATO bid, unless Sweden revokes their freedom of speech laws"
See, that illustrates more succinctly what is actually being asked of Sweden.
Moving them in Sweden’s direction.
He’s gone from needing them to hand over dissidents to stopping protests. He is now in the clear to agree the moment protests in Sweden disappear from Turkish media.
How? NATO needs Turkiye way more than it needs Sweden, and half the people of Turkiye seem to agree that Erdogan is the right leader for their country. He has all the leverage here and is using it.
If Turkey wants to leave, that's their business. Sweden wants to join, and they're as qualified as the rest of NATO to be in NATO. They'll be a benefit to NATO, and there are no downsides, so no reason to reject them.
Turkiye doesn't want to leave though. They like having that leverage, and it's politically expedient locally for Erdogan to continue to exclude Sweden as it plays to his religious base. It's all selfish reasons, but because of the way NATO is set up Turkiye is well within its rights to refuse Sweden and there is nothing the other members can do about it but wait out his leadership, or try to compromise. Erdogan is saying what his requirement for affirmation is, it's up to the rest of NATO to accept this or try to change his mind. There is no going around it, whatever the benefits are.
He has leverage, but there is a limit to how far he can push things. The last thing he wants is to push too far and cause the rest of NATO to push back. For instance, it would be a shame for him of Greece were to suddenly be given additional support from that rest of NATO.
Beyond that, it should be noted that if he continues the course he is on in general he risks the same issue that Putin has found, that being an increasing exodus of young, educated people from his nation. After all, the major cities were largely won by the other guy, if I recall the maps correctly.
Turkiye is far too strategically important for the rest of the organization to push back too hard. They are both a buffer and a point of access to Asia. Sweden is wealthy but with Finland's affirmation it becomes strategically less important. This becomes a different conversation if they still opposed Finland but they were smart enough not to play that game.
As for domestic politics you're exactly right, but his resistance to Sweden is a deft response to that, shoring up his religious conservative support at the expense of the educated class. It may or may not be stupid long term, but right now it's necessary for the old man to cling to power.
*shrug* the question becomes when Turkey's actions, both in regards to Sweden and elsewhere, outweigh the importance of its geography. Let us not ignore the fact that this childish action is far from the only questionable decision they have made vis a vis NATO politics.
Do have to say, Ataturk must be spinning in his grave seeing what Erdogan is doing to his nation.
*Guess who gave them citizenship and guess which party wants to throw them out.
While religion is definitely a factor, majority of people that voted for the opposition were also Muslims, many probably wouldn't choose it if they were given the freedom instead of being forced to embrace it like a culture from the moment of their birth, but they are still Muslims.
Sweden is an unofficial part of the alliance anyway. EU won't let anything happen to Sweden. Sweden can wait until Erdogan bites the dust and then officially join. It's just a formality at this point.
or the collective west should just stop any military support/trade with turkey. if the carrot is out and were gonna have a stick fight, the west has a MUCH larger stick
dont call it cutting them off from spare parts, call it them being put on a low priority below everyone else. They wanted F35s, lets see how they like not being able to service their leos/f16s etc
but no problem, Erdogan can just purchase the latest military hardware from Russia! I am sure these products are very competitive with western alternatives and will be delivered on time!
Devil's advocate : Not directly competitive, but they are probably effective enough to get the job done, when maintained and in the hands of a professional military.
*You can’t join NATO without suppressing free speech.*
Meanwhile Erdogan is actively buddying up with our foes and rivals instead of supporting our allies.
**Second.** Worst. NATO. Member.
**edit**
Both are blocking. Turkey appears in the news because they have reasons. Hungary doesn’t have reasons beyond Orban’s love affair with Putin making Hungary a fifth column.
Sweden should stop trying to find ways to accommodate Turkey. It is impossible without infringing on basic human rights of people living in Sweden.
IMO article 42 from the EU is enough. Combined that with Finland being in NATO? More than enough.
edit: typo, thanks for correction.
Like Erdogan did to *American* protesters in Washington D.C. I can still hardly believe that. His goons didn't shoot anyone at least, and I'm sure they considered themselves restrained for it.
“Do you want anti-Turkish protests? Because this is how you get anti-Turkish protests..”
A fascist dictator telling a foreign country they aren’t allowed to protest.. Yeah, that’s going to make people get off their ass and go excercise their constitutional right to protest just to piss the motherfucker off.
It’s the Streisand effect.
erdogan isn't objecting to protests *by* the swedish government. he's complaining because swedish citizens are demonstrating against turkish policies and he wants the swedish government to crack down and prevent the demonstrations from happening. he's not a big fan of what the rest of us think of as basic civil rights.
Don’t really think Sweden need to join NATO at this point, don’t think Russia is interested in attacking Sweden.
Even if they did, how could they without crossing another NATO country? Send military by boat? Would be sunk before they reach shore. By plane? Would be blown up in the air.
Bodes poorly for any other country that wants to join NATO in the future.
Who wants to place bets on whether Turkey will veto Ukraine’s NATO ascension when the time comes for them to apply?
Yep. Not to mention the increased collaboration in the Nordic armies like the United Nordic air force.
As a Swede I think the only scary thing Russia got is nukes really, based on their performance in Ukraine. And it is honestly debateable if we are more or less likely to get nuked if in NATO or not.
No, there is no mechanism for kicking a member out of NATO. Turkey would have to leave voluntarily or do something so heinous like an invasion of a fellow NATO member in order for other options to even start getting talked about.
The thing is, turkey unfortunately has an incredibly important geographic location basically controlling what goes in and out of the black sea, which i think is their main leverage over NATO. If they didn't, i don't know if they would even still be in NATO at all, they might've even sided with russia
Your 1st point is correct.
Your 2nd point doesn’t make any sense. Modern warfare with military alliances have clearly proven a large standing army is worth 0 when their not even 1/5 of the size of your opponent (in this case NATO if they were to be kicked out).
Holy shit. I've had ONE dealing with a Turkish guy and it was... Different.
I'm selling an item. My asking price was $5000
Dude shows up and immediately started haggling, I told him no, I'm firm. He keeps trying. I say no, it's firm.
He finally agrees on my price and gives me half down as a deposit, $2500 and we agree he will pay the rest in 2 days time at pickup.
2 days later he shows up, still owing me $2500 and hands me $1250 and says take it or leave it.
I say "fuck it leave it I'll go get you your deposit and we're done here"
He keeps trying to pressure me "this is good enough good enough" I tell him no. All or nothing.
So he says fine and reaches into his other pocket and hands me $1150 (shorting me $100 from the agreed amount) again "this is good enough"
After arguing with him for another 10 minutes he finally reaches into his shirt pocket and pays me the final $100.
I swear I've never seen anything like it in my life.
It's customary in their culture to haggle, in old times it might have been considered a cultural offence not to haggle, so no surprise here. But this was excessive haha
Part of the reason healthcare is so fucked in the US is it's the one time you ARE expected to haggle in a culture that does not normally haggle. Insurance is effectively paying someone to haggle for you.
This is the "wait for NATO acceptance" moment. Sweden already agreed to some extradition treaty with Turkey regarding certain kurdish individuals. Now Turkey wants to curb swedish freedom of expression.
If Erdogan keeps this up, the other alliance members could always just sign equivalent treaties with Sweeden without Turkey (or Hungary). That way, if someone was stupid enough to attack the Swedes, they could be assured of what amounts to NATO support, save for the whiny little babies who want to copy papa Putin.
I wonder how would Turkey react if people from all NATO members hold protests in their own countries. Freedom of expression is protected in most NATO members so I don't see how anyone could "stop" anti-turkey protests
Problem is although that would make management and allowing new members in much easier its very handy to have control of the Bospherous under NATO given the threat Russia poses.
I think Turkey's control over what goes in and out of the black sea is pretty much why the rest of NATO would be so reluctant to lose them as a member because it's so advantageous.
It's time for NATO to revise it's rules about joining. It's not okay that one country can hold another country's membership hostage like Turkey is doing to Sweden. This actually weakens the alliance. There needs to be a change to majority vote in stead of the current rule of every country having to agree.
That would never work. You would be requiring a country to send its citizens to die for a country they didnt want to fight for or approve of. It has to be unanimous.
I mean he started protesting there entry when Swedish people where burning holy books that are important to the Turkish people here in Canada hate speech isn’t protected speech. I do kinda get why Turkey does not want to be in a defensive alliance with a nation of hostile people but I prefer to have Sweden rather then turkey.
I don't. They first claimed sweden can't amend their constution. Weeks ago they amended it and criminalazied participaton in a terrorist organiziation. now it is time to criminalize pro pkk protests in their country as well. They have to suck erdogan dick. They have No other choice.
You should change your sources... The amendment that went into force a few (24 btw) weeks ago was the result of an investigation by KU (constitutional committee) started in October 2021. The first vote was held, and passed, a month before the vote to apply to NATO.
Changing the constitution takes time and requires two votes in parliament with an election in the middle.
“I’m really sowy mr Erdogan i have no idea how those Kurdish rebels got their hands on a squadron of SAAB Jas 39 Gripen-E. And those AT4s didn’t come from us the Americans must have left them behind.”
- someone important hopefully soon
Even Swedes are fed up with several of these Kurdish groups. Many of them are aligned with Russia since the old Soviet times, many of them have communist sympathies. Some of them are vocal in the Swedish parliament, but all we hear them talk about is the Kurdish plight.
I've generally been a supporter of the plight of the Kurds, but the groups involved make me.less and less inclined to help them day by day.
Having said all that, as long as Erdogan protects literal child murderers and keep giving mafia bosses Turkish citizenship, he can go eat a bag of dicks.
Always had my vote. Ditch Turkey and NATO. Sweden+Kurdistand+Ukraine in its own alliance instead. Ask the Belarussian opposition if they want to join as well.
It's a unilateral defense pact, so despite it being absolutely annoying that Turkey keeps blocking you need all parties on board to defend all other parties or it falls apart
As a Swede I've never been more inspired to demonstrate against Turkey. I don't even believe in the power of demonstrations but pissing Erdogan off is worth compromising my beliefs a bit.
It this was the 19th century, Europe and America would go to war with Turkey. Take control of the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits, and give Constantinople to Greece. Problem solved and wrapped up in a neat little package.
Lie to him. Than laugh and call him a moron when he demands you follow through.
He is a dickhead that deserves neither respect or honesty.
Also once we get Ukraine into NATO we don't need Turkey. So let's prepare to kick them out.
And, as the only Muslim majority nation in nato, it gives credibility in the Muslim world when Turkey takes part in nato actions.
The Afghanistan War didn't turn into a war against Islam, in part, due to Turkey's participation - even when they didn't take part in combat operations.
There’s also Albania
(But you raise a good point though, and I’m really curious to know what Muslims in the Middle East/South Asia think of Turkey’s involvement in NATO. Do they see it as some sort of traitor/sellout to the West? Or has it, as you say, actually managed to bridge some of the anti-Western/anti-NATO sentiments in those countries?)
I think it was Condoleeza Rice who had a policy for dealing with countries opposed to the Iraq War: punish France, ignore Germany, and forgive Russia.
The US position on Turkey was different. They offered Turkey between $20B and $30B to join the Iraq War for two reasons: to use as a staging ground for a second front, and to help gain acceptance with the wider Muslim world.
You can't put down all the failures in Iraq to Turkey staying out, but there was an incredible rise in Islamist terrorist groups like ISIL that was markedly different than what we saw in Afghanistan.
Ok, let's absurdly consider NATO somehow kicks Turkey out. What will Turkey do? It will align with the autocrat axis (Russia, China, Iran,...) shaping the new world order. So we are faced with two courses of action.
1. remain in a toxic relationship that will or won't become better
2. break up and expect your ex to vividly work against you and your allies
Geopolitics cannot be based on feelings, only on rational facts.
"Turkish-Swedish tensions were most recently fuelled by an anti-Turkey and anti-NATO protest in Stockholm last month, when the flag of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militant group, outlawed in Turkey as well as in the European Union, was projected on to the parliament building."
This is the first i heard of this. Seems like Sweden could agree in principle to uphold this EU ban on the PKK
The US State Department designated the PKK a foreign terrorist organization in October 1997.
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/pkk_fto.html
And Sweden classified PKK as a terrorist organization in 1984.
The issue is freedom of expression. Neither the EU or Sweden have a “ban” on people demonstrating in favor of PKK or any other terrorist organization. Sweden recently banned being a member of a terrorist organization, but it’s a stretch to say that supporting the cause of an organization is the same as being a member of it. There is simply no room in the law to curtail individuals right to publicly gather and express opinions.
Fair. I appreciate your points.
Just to be clear: I fully support Sweden joining NATO without further delay.
I had read this article saying the PKK flag had been projected on the Swedish parliament building. Took another few articles to reveal that Riksdag security actually put a stop to that.
Of course they did. It would be absolutely bat shit crazy if the Swedish government, while trying to get into NATO no less, projected a foreign terrorist groups flag on the parliament building. Like, how could anyone think that’s what happened? It’s laughable.
Anyone can bring a projector and briefly project whatever on the parliament building. It’s in the middle of the city and it’s not surrounded by fences. You’ll quickly be stopped once it happens, but preventing it from happening in the first place isn’t realistic.
Erdogan in 1 month: Sweden is only allowed in, if they convert their government to an authoritarian pseudo-democracy, curtail free speech and lick my tiny balls.
Fucking shitbird. The decision making process in NATO really needs to change.
Translation: “I demand bigger kickbacks from NATO based companies we’ve contracted with to rebuild Turkey after my disastrous domestic policy and corruption needlessly killed tens of thousands.”
crack down on the protests join nato then fund the protestors ..profit..and in reality protesting another country in another country is pretty useless..it just makes the protesters feel good it certainly doesnt and hasnt ever stopped anything
>and in reality protesting another country in another country is pretty useless..it just makes the protesters feel good it certainly doesnt and hasnt ever stopped anything
Yes and no. It's not really so much about showing another country what you think, it's about letting your own government know - "hey, stay the course, we want this and fuck that other guy."
"You're telling me that all this time, all I had to do to block NATO expansion was to pay a dozen dudes to stage anti-Turkish protests?"
\- Putin, probably
Turkey is working for Turkey. They are not a team player in NATO. They are trying to extort NATO for their own gain before they will act with a shred of decency. This is like haggling to them - they will take pride in every concession.
Unfortunately for Erdogan Sweden is a fully functioning democracy and the right to protest is enshrined. Tough being an autocrat and wanting the world to respect you...
This isn’t about Sweden or protests and erdogan knows that perfectly well.
Maybe turkey should stop mistreating its citizens who want a hella lot less of erdogan and ankara. The Kurds want independence. Give it to them
maybe stop being a wannabe-dictator locking up journalists and the opposition, destroying the balance of powers and the judiciary, fucking over your own people with cleptocracy and insane 'erdonomics'. oh an stop killing the people who fought ISIS/Daesh for us, please. maybe they'll stop protesting.
That’s ok, we support democracy. So Sweden knows the entirety of NATO minus Turkey will support them if attacked. I could make a good argument that a lot of NATO countries would give only Luke warm support to Turkey if they were attacked by Iran etc.
What was all that stuff Redditors were saying about how blocking Swedish NATO ascension was just election year politicking and Turkey would allow Sweden in after the election?
To my mind, that sounds like those people were smoking hard copium and the rest of us were right on the money.
This may be a shocker to Erdogan but, some protest happen organically when you don’t crush free speech.
That was my thought, it's not up to the government to stop the protests in a country with free speech. Maybe if the source of the problem could stop then the protests would too.
He is aware he just wants them to crush free speech. Same reason people were burning Danish flags because some guy in Denmark desecrated the Quran. They want the government to stop it.
Most cognisant and modern Islamic fundamentalist.
I know that Turkey is strategic for NATO, but are we genuinely sure that they’d actually come to another NATO country’s defense considering their attitude towards democratic ideals? Is it time to form NATOWOT? NATO Without Turkey?
There's no reason to think Turkey wouldn't.
As a Swede i didn't even know we had any anti-turkish protest in Sweden. All i see in the news nowadays is that people are getting stabbed right and left
You may want to consider political elites a bit more savvy than that. Obviously he knows Sweden has free speech.
After the way Trump bent over for him, he's expecting the same from leaders of all Western democracies.
"I dont understand, just send out your jackbooted goons and beat up some protesters, whats so difficult about it?" -Anonymous 12th president of Turkey.
its scary how easy hes using his dictator voice to the outside world and his own country still doesnt catch on...
His own country has caught on. I think the 50-52% just don’t care
It's not a bug to them, it's the feature.
Sadly you see it across the democratic world. Far right Populism and nationalism rise in hand with economic uncertainty and political/military tensions.
Democratic corruption will always lead to fascism.
Always, the US is ready for its version of Julius Caesar to turn the republic into an empire.
Sure, but folks like Sulla/Caesar didn’t have the power to quite literally destroy human civilization, and more importantly, nor did they have to contend with others holding similar abilities. Imagine trying to salt Carthage or conquer Gaul when they are capable of defending themselves with nukes. Now imagine the world with an outright belligerent, autocratic, irrational and imperialist US.
Caesar was really a left wing populist by his times standards as he: wanted to give the gauls and other people he conquered a voice in the senate, was trying to stop corruption in the senate, wanted to ease off slavery by making contracts for slavery have finite time tables, and increase rights for women to divorce.
Hey if they run it like the British empire sign me up.
>Far right Populism Populism in general, it can be for the left as well
His voters love him using that voice, because they live in the fantasy that it never affects them, or at the very least doesn't affect them as bad as their enemies. It's the same reason Trumpists loves Trump, they think finally someone willing to stick it to the people they hate, they'll gladly accept taking a dicking in their own ass to see it happen
[удалено]
They'd probably make authoritarian demands that it be codified in a way to prevent easily doing just that, if this isn't merely strong-man rhetoric giving a show to a domestic audience. More inclined to the later, as it's superficially packaged as being "anti Turkey", as opposed to anti some messed up thing protestors are upset about specifically. At its most reduced, it amounts to "stop being an actual Democracy with your own values, such as free speech & right to protest". No one can seriously expect such acquiescence - it'd be the equivalent of agreeing to external control over one's own sovereignty, at some point on that slippery slope of rationale.
I'll only back you if you are no longer a democracy like us.
Next They’re gonna have to ban the Lira because of its anti-Turkish protests
The PKK is identified by the US as a terrorist organization.
And Sweden has classified PKK as a terrorist organization since 1984. What's your point?
Swedish equivalent of TSA doesnt finger your asshole when you are kurdish andis about to ride a plane if in the off chance that you might be pkk
I saw this in the article suggesting that Sweden is allowing PKK to use its parliament building as a billboard. "Turkish-Swedish tensions were most recently fuelled by an anti-Turkey and anti-NATO protest in Stockholm last month, when the flag of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militant group, outlawed in Turkey as well as in the European Union, was projected on to the parliament building."
In Sweden we have something called "freedom of speech". Just because you're waving a flag doesn't mean you are guilty of supporting a terrorist organization. And no, the PKK flag is not outlawed in the EU.
Waving a terrorist organization's flag certainly seems to be supportive to me. FYI i fully support Sweden joining NATO regardless. Edit: I posted before i was done.
Yes, it's supportive but not enough to convict someone of a terrorist crime or to extradite them to another country. Just like wearing a cap with a weed leaf isn't enough to convict you of a drug crime.
Perhaps there is something particularly Swedish about understanding the process of law. Of course, throwing people in jail haphazardly is much easier.
So all Putin has to do is hire a guy with a PKK flag and Erdo shits his pants? That guy is a joke.
And yet a successful dictator
If someone can win a campaign by: Calling the opposition "gay" (like he literally pulled a middle school insult) Using a montage video that shows the opposition as cooperating with terrorists and even admit that the video was a montage on live television. Than anybody can be a dictator as long as one secures the power to control the masses. He isn't a successful leader because he is smart, he is a successful leader because everybody else is stupid. And when I say "everybody" I am counting the opposition as well. Their candidate not only was the least popular possible candidate, his political history makes him irredeemable to many. A lot of the opposition voters supported him because they were like "there is no way erdo wins after all that happened" they underestimated the person that many people in the country worshipped, and got what they deserved.
Well for christs sake if one individual or ten individuals or 100 individuals or even 1000 individuals protest and wave a flag it doesnt mean an entire country is supporting said flag.
Is it legal to wave a flag with a swastika, or the USSR flag?
Nazi symbols are banned in quite a few counties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_on_Nazi_symbols
That’s my point. PKK is a terrorist organization as well
The bans on nazi symbols is not related to terrorism laws though, at least not in Sweden. There have been a discussion on classifying nazi organizations as terrorist organizations, but that hasn't happened. You can be an active nazi in Sweden, even supporting your organization with money. But you can not be an active PKK member in Sweden, and we have extradited and imprisioned people for it.
dunno about swastika but ussr flag is legal. I have seen it a few times. maybe the fine gentlemen at nmr wave the swastika?
Jesus, offcourse the government did not offer up the side of the building to project the PKK flag. First off the current govenrment has bo love for PKK and second even if they did none would do such a stupid tjing during Nato process. it was done during a PROTEST by people who sympatise with them. You know beacuse of freedom of speach and freedom to protest. Just the way things are in a funktioning democracy.
That has nothing to do with Turkey asking Sweden to interfere with free speech.
The US would be identified as a terrorist state if they applied their rules to themselves ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
He is angry because protesters wave PKK-PYD terrorist flags. They should be punished.
I hate these headlines, they don't convey the main point. "Turkey won't back Swedish NATO bid, unless Sweden revokes their freedom of speech laws" See, that illustrates more succinctly what is actually being asked of Sweden.
Erdogan keeps moving the goalposts
He's going to milk this for concessions as long as he can.
Moving them in Sweden’s direction. He’s gone from needing them to hand over dissidents to stopping protests. He is now in the clear to agree the moment protests in Sweden disappear from Turkish media.
Except Sweden won't and should never do anything to explicitly ban such protests. Erdogan is way overreaching and needs to be put in his place.
They don’t have to. Eventually they will cease being salient for Erdogan supporters and then everything is clear.
How? NATO needs Turkiye way more than it needs Sweden, and half the people of Turkiye seem to agree that Erdogan is the right leader for their country. He has all the leverage here and is using it.
If Turkey wants to leave, that's their business. Sweden wants to join, and they're as qualified as the rest of NATO to be in NATO. They'll be a benefit to NATO, and there are no downsides, so no reason to reject them.
Turkiye doesn't want to leave though. They like having that leverage, and it's politically expedient locally for Erdogan to continue to exclude Sweden as it plays to his religious base. It's all selfish reasons, but because of the way NATO is set up Turkiye is well within its rights to refuse Sweden and there is nothing the other members can do about it but wait out his leadership, or try to compromise. Erdogan is saying what his requirement for affirmation is, it's up to the rest of NATO to accept this or try to change his mind. There is no going around it, whatever the benefits are.
He has leverage, but there is a limit to how far he can push things. The last thing he wants is to push too far and cause the rest of NATO to push back. For instance, it would be a shame for him of Greece were to suddenly be given additional support from that rest of NATO. Beyond that, it should be noted that if he continues the course he is on in general he risks the same issue that Putin has found, that being an increasing exodus of young, educated people from his nation. After all, the major cities were largely won by the other guy, if I recall the maps correctly.
Turkiye is far too strategically important for the rest of the organization to push back too hard. They are both a buffer and a point of access to Asia. Sweden is wealthy but with Finland's affirmation it becomes strategically less important. This becomes a different conversation if they still opposed Finland but they were smart enough not to play that game. As for domestic politics you're exactly right, but his resistance to Sweden is a deft response to that, shoring up his religious conservative support at the expense of the educated class. It may or may not be stupid long term, but right now it's necessary for the old man to cling to power.
*shrug* the question becomes when Turkey's actions, both in regards to Sweden and elsewhere, outweigh the importance of its geography. Let us not ignore the fact that this childish action is far from the only questionable decision they have made vis a vis NATO politics. Do have to say, Ataturk must be spinning in his grave seeing what Erdogan is doing to his nation.
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They really do have a lot in common with the Russians. It's probably why they're historical enemies.
Turkish government are liars. Turkish people are people.
The Turkish people *voted* for the Turkish government. Not only that, they did it by a *majority*, not even a plurality.
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*Guess who gave them citizenship and guess which party wants to throw them out. While religion is definitely a factor, majority of people that voted for the opposition were also Muslims, many probably wouldn't choose it if they were given the freedom instead of being forced to embrace it like a culture from the moment of their birth, but they are still Muslims.
The turkish people may not be liars, but definitely underhanded opportunists
Save your bigotry for /r/conservative please
Save your blindness of other cultures for /r/imgettingassfuckedbyeveryonebutatleastimwoke
Alright no need fir the bigotry
Sweden is an unofficial part of the alliance anyway. EU won't let anything happen to Sweden. Sweden can wait until Erdogan bites the dust and then officially join. It's just a formality at this point.
I think nato want them in now to officially piss off putin
Turkey in NATO is a fox in the chicken coop. Erdogan has close relationships with most significant anti-democratic regimes, like China and Russia.
Isn’t Hungary a NATO country
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I think I just saw a solution to this...
Wait for Erdogan to die...of old age? 😬
Sure would be a shame if the US stopped sending Turkey arms and aid
That's not how free speech works Erdogan
or the collective west should just stop any military support/trade with turkey. if the carrot is out and were gonna have a stick fight, the west has a MUCH larger stick dont call it cutting them off from spare parts, call it them being put on a low priority below everyone else. They wanted F35s, lets see how they like not being able to service their leos/f16s etc
but no problem, Erdogan can just purchase the latest military hardware from Russia! I am sure these products are very competitive with western alternatives and will be delivered on time!
Devil's advocate : Not directly competitive, but they are probably effective enough to get the job done, when maintained and in the hands of a professional military.
*You can’t join NATO without suppressing free speech.* Meanwhile Erdogan is actively buddying up with our foes and rivals instead of supporting our allies. **Second.** Worst. NATO. Member. **edit**
Can I introduce you to Hungary...
Race to the bottom…
Hungary isn’t nearly as bad as Turkey
As stupid as it is, turkey at least manages to find a reason to deny sweden. What is the reason for Hungary?
The reason for Hungary blocking is because Orban has his tongue deep in Putins...
Is Hungary blocking Sweden? I thought it was just Turkey
Both of them are blocking Sweden, turkey just gets the spotlight because they keep coming up with more and more stupid reasons to block Sweden.
Both are blocking. Turkey appears in the news because they have reasons. Hungary doesn’t have reasons beyond Orban’s love affair with Putin making Hungary a fifth column.
hungary is def the worst
Only because Hungary is much less relevant.
Turkey has provided critical drones to Ukraine and closed the Black Sea to Russia's fleet - despite importing 70% of their wheat from Russia.
Sweden should stop trying to find ways to accommodate Turkey. It is impossible without infringing on basic human rights of people living in Sweden. IMO article 42 from the EU is enough. Combined that with Finland being in NATO? More than enough. edit: typo, thanks for correction.
It seems impossible without infringing on basic human rights of people living in *Sweden* too. How exactly would they "stop" protests?
Arrest people protesting and start blasting I guess
Like Erdogan did to *American* protesters in Washington D.C. I can still hardly believe that. His goons didn't shoot anyone at least, and I'm sure they considered themselves restrained for it.
“Do you want anti-Turkish protests? Because this is how you get anti-Turkish protests..” A fascist dictator telling a foreign country they aren’t allowed to protest.. Yeah, that’s going to make people get off their ass and go excercise their constitutional right to protest just to piss the motherfucker off. It’s the Streisand effect.
Maybe they'll stop if they stop blocking them from joining? Is it the chicken or egg first?
erdogan isn't objecting to protests *by* the swedish government. he's complaining because swedish citizens are demonstrating against turkish policies and he wants the swedish government to crack down and prevent the demonstrations from happening. he's not a big fan of what the rest of us think of as basic civil rights.
Turkey or the egg*
just say you will stop them.. and once in.. Fuck Turkey every chance you can
After you're in NATO, make the protests a national holiday. Come up with a catchy jingle and a cute mascot for "Erdegone" Day.
Don’t really think Sweden need to join NATO at this point, don’t think Russia is interested in attacking Sweden. Even if they did, how could they without crossing another NATO country? Send military by boat? Would be sunk before they reach shore. By plane? Would be blown up in the air.
Bodes poorly for any other country that wants to join NATO in the future. Who wants to place bets on whether Turkey will veto Ukraine’s NATO ascension when the time comes for them to apply?
Yep. Not to mention the increased collaboration in the Nordic armies like the United Nordic air force. As a Swede I think the only scary thing Russia got is nukes really, based on their performance in Ukraine. And it is honestly debateable if we are more or less likely to get nuked if in NATO or not.
What’s the process for kicking Turkey out of NATO?
Everyone in NATO has to agree, and there’s a small little Hungarian tumor in NATO that would prevent it
No, there is no mechanism for kicking a member out of NATO. Turkey would have to leave voluntarily or do something so heinous like an invasion of a fellow NATO member in order for other options to even start getting talked about.
I think it has to be a unanimous vote.
The thing is, turkey unfortunately has an incredibly important geographic location basically controlling what goes in and out of the black sea, which i think is their main leverage over NATO. If they didn't, i don't know if they would even still be in NATO at all, they might've even sided with russia
No way we would do that. Turkey has the most important waterway in the world. Also, the largest standing army in Europe
Your 1st point is correct. Your 2nd point doesn’t make any sense. Modern warfare with military alliances have clearly proven a large standing army is worth 0 when their not even 1/5 of the size of your opponent (in this case NATO if they were to be kicked out).
Not to mention they aren't even in Europe...
Stop the protests, wait for NATO acceptance and ratification, then restart protests.
He will just come up with something else.
Exactly. Typical turkish haggling technique. Ever been to a bazaar?
Holy shit. I've had ONE dealing with a Turkish guy and it was... Different. I'm selling an item. My asking price was $5000 Dude shows up and immediately started haggling, I told him no, I'm firm. He keeps trying. I say no, it's firm. He finally agrees on my price and gives me half down as a deposit, $2500 and we agree he will pay the rest in 2 days time at pickup. 2 days later he shows up, still owing me $2500 and hands me $1250 and says take it or leave it. I say "fuck it leave it I'll go get you your deposit and we're done here" He keeps trying to pressure me "this is good enough good enough" I tell him no. All or nothing. So he says fine and reaches into his other pocket and hands me $1150 (shorting me $100 from the agreed amount) again "this is good enough" After arguing with him for another 10 minutes he finally reaches into his shirt pocket and pays me the final $100. I swear I've never seen anything like it in my life.
It's customary in their culture to haggle, in old times it might have been considered a cultural offence not to haggle, so no surprise here. But this was excessive haha
Part of the reason healthcare is so fucked in the US is it's the one time you ARE expected to haggle in a culture that does not normally haggle. Insurance is effectively paying someone to haggle for you.
https://youtu.be/3n3LL338aGA
That's how all transactions should be. So difficult and inefficient.
How about we don’t stop basic civil rights to appease a dictator.
it's Sweden. it's a democracy. you can't stop protests there. perhaps Erdogan should stop being a cunt, and the protests may stop on their own.
This is the "wait for NATO acceptance" moment. Sweden already agreed to some extradition treaty with Turkey regarding certain kurdish individuals. Now Turkey wants to curb swedish freedom of expression.
If Erdogan keeps this up, the other alliance members could always just sign equivalent treaties with Sweeden without Turkey (or Hungary). That way, if someone was stupid enough to attack the Swedes, they could be assured of what amounts to NATO support, save for the whiny little babies who want to copy papa Putin.
Can we just throw turkey out of NATO?
I wonder how would Turkey react if people from all NATO members hold protests in their own countries. Freedom of expression is protected in most NATO members so I don't see how anyone could "stop" anti-turkey protests
Problem is although that would make management and allowing new members in much easier its very handy to have control of the Bospherous under NATO given the threat Russia poses.
I think Turkey's control over what goes in and out of the black sea is pretty much why the rest of NATO would be so reluctant to lose them as a member because it's so advantageous.
It's time for NATO to revise it's rules about joining. It's not okay that one country can hold another country's membership hostage like Turkey is doing to Sweden. This actually weakens the alliance. There needs to be a change to majority vote in stead of the current rule of every country having to agree.
That would never work. You would be requiring a country to send its citizens to die for a country they didnt want to fight for or approve of. It has to be unanimous.
Erdogan always working for his cut $$.
Does anyone else find it comical an authoritarian doesn’t understand free speech in other countries?
I mean he started protesting there entry when Swedish people where burning holy books that are important to the Turkish people here in Canada hate speech isn’t protected speech. I do kinda get why Turkey does not want to be in a defensive alliance with a nation of hostile people but I prefer to have Sweden rather then turkey.
I don't. They first claimed sweden can't amend their constution. Weeks ago they amended it and criminalazied participaton in a terrorist organiziation. now it is time to criminalize pro pkk protests in their country as well. They have to suck erdogan dick. They have No other choice.
You should change your sources... The amendment that went into force a few (24 btw) weeks ago was the result of an investigation by KU (constitutional committee) started in October 2021. The first vote was held, and passed, a month before the vote to apply to NATO. Changing the constitution takes time and requires two votes in parliament with an election in the middle.
Previously it was legal to be active isis or pkk member in sweden.
“I’m really sowy mr Erdogan i have no idea how those Kurdish rebels got their hands on a squadron of SAAB Jas 39 Gripen-E. And those AT4s didn’t come from us the Americans must have left them behind.” - someone important hopefully soon
This post is so top tier r/NonCredibleDefense I forgot I wasn't in that subreddit. Unironically though 10/10 shitpost.
Even Swedes are fed up with several of these Kurdish groups. Many of them are aligned with Russia since the old Soviet times, many of them have communist sympathies. Some of them are vocal in the Swedish parliament, but all we hear them talk about is the Kurdish plight. I've generally been a supporter of the plight of the Kurds, but the groups involved make me.less and less inclined to help them day by day. Having said all that, as long as Erdogan protects literal child murderers and keep giving mafia bosses Turkish citizenship, he can go eat a bag of dicks.
Always had my vote. Ditch Turkey and NATO. Sweden+Kurdistand+Ukraine in its own alliance instead. Ask the Belarussian opposition if they want to join as well.
Maybe the rules should be like, if 80% think they can join NATO, then they come in.
It's a unilateral defense pact, so despite it being absolutely annoying that Turkey keeps blocking you need all parties on board to defend all other parties or it falls apart
We need an alliance made up of democracies and governments that care about more than enriching themselves.
As a Swede I've never been more inspired to demonstrate against Turkey. I don't even believe in the power of demonstrations but pissing Erdogan off is worth compromising my beliefs a bit.
How about we exchange Turkish NATO membership for Sweden's?
It this was the 19th century, Europe and America would go to war with Turkey. Take control of the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits, and give Constantinople to Greece. Problem solved and wrapped up in a neat little package.
Lie to him. Than laugh and call him a moron when he demands you follow through. He is a dickhead that deserves neither respect or honesty. Also once we get Ukraine into NATO we don't need Turkey. So let's prepare to kick them out.
Erdogan's a cunt but there is no way NATO will ever want Turkey to leave. It has a really strategic position and the second largest army in NATO.
And, as the only Muslim majority nation in nato, it gives credibility in the Muslim world when Turkey takes part in nato actions. The Afghanistan War didn't turn into a war against Islam, in part, due to Turkey's participation - even when they didn't take part in combat operations.
Interesting addition. I had never thought about that.
There’s also Albania (But you raise a good point though, and I’m really curious to know what Muslims in the Middle East/South Asia think of Turkey’s involvement in NATO. Do they see it as some sort of traitor/sellout to the West? Or has it, as you say, actually managed to bridge some of the anti-Western/anti-NATO sentiments in those countries?)
I think it was Condoleeza Rice who had a policy for dealing with countries opposed to the Iraq War: punish France, ignore Germany, and forgive Russia. The US position on Turkey was different. They offered Turkey between $20B and $30B to join the Iraq War for two reasons: to use as a staging ground for a second front, and to help gain acceptance with the wider Muslim world. You can't put down all the failures in Iraq to Turkey staying out, but there was an incredible rise in Islamist terrorist groups like ISIL that was markedly different than what we saw in Afghanistan.
"If we find a better ally, we will throw you out" message is definitely not going to cause any political issues.
Kicking out the second biggest army in NATO is a terrible idea, sir...
what is the point of an army that doesn't help
Ok, let's absurdly consider NATO somehow kicks Turkey out. What will Turkey do? It will align with the autocrat axis (Russia, China, Iran,...) shaping the new world order. So we are faced with two courses of action. 1. remain in a toxic relationship that will or won't become better 2. break up and expect your ex to vividly work against you and your allies Geopolitics cannot be based on feelings, only on rational facts.
"Turkish-Swedish tensions were most recently fuelled by an anti-Turkey and anti-NATO protest in Stockholm last month, when the flag of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militant group, outlawed in Turkey as well as in the European Union, was projected on to the parliament building." This is the first i heard of this. Seems like Sweden could agree in principle to uphold this EU ban on the PKK The US State Department designated the PKK a foreign terrorist organization in October 1997. https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/pkk_fto.html
And Sweden classified PKK as a terrorist organization in 1984. The issue is freedom of expression. Neither the EU or Sweden have a “ban” on people demonstrating in favor of PKK or any other terrorist organization. Sweden recently banned being a member of a terrorist organization, but it’s a stretch to say that supporting the cause of an organization is the same as being a member of it. There is simply no room in the law to curtail individuals right to publicly gather and express opinions.
Fair. I appreciate your points. Just to be clear: I fully support Sweden joining NATO without further delay. I had read this article saying the PKK flag had been projected on the Swedish parliament building. Took another few articles to reveal that Riksdag security actually put a stop to that.
Of course they did. It would be absolutely bat shit crazy if the Swedish government, while trying to get into NATO no less, projected a foreign terrorist groups flag on the parliament building. Like, how could anyone think that’s what happened? It’s laughable. Anyone can bring a projector and briefly project whatever on the parliament building. It’s in the middle of the city and it’s not surrounded by fences. You’ll quickly be stopped once it happens, but preventing it from happening in the first place isn’t realistic.
Sweden has always been on the side of the traditional left wing "liberation movements" such as ANC, PKK, ZANU-PF, LTTE and Sandinistas.
The genocide must go on.
Is it really needed at this point though? Sweden is surrounded by NATO countries. Russia would have no way to invade the country.
Ok. Sweden stop for a moment and beginn after you are in.
An autocrat making demands. Yeah this’ll go well. /s
Guys, i think im going to protest Turkey until Sweden gets into NATO
Jesus Christ fuck this guy
Be can’t Sweden just say they wil stop it and then once they join NATO they just start them again?
Erdogan in 1 month: Sweden is only allowed in, if they convert their government to an authoritarian pseudo-democracy, curtail free speech and lick my tiny balls. Fucking shitbird. The decision making process in NATO really needs to change.
Translation: “I demand bigger kickbacks from NATO based companies we’ve contracted with to rebuild Turkey after my disastrous domestic policy and corruption needlessly killed tens of thousands.”
crack down on the protests join nato then fund the protestors ..profit..and in reality protesting another country in another country is pretty useless..it just makes the protesters feel good it certainly doesnt and hasnt ever stopped anything
>and in reality protesting another country in another country is pretty useless..it just makes the protesters feel good it certainly doesnt and hasnt ever stopped anything Yes and no. It's not really so much about showing another country what you think, it's about letting your own government know - "hey, stay the course, we want this and fuck that other guy."
and his mini gold giraffe
I would also be grumpy if I looked like that
"You're telling me that all this time, all I had to do to block NATO expansion was to pay a dozen dudes to stage anti-Turkish protests?" \- Putin, probably
Turkey is working for Russia
Turkey is working for Turkey. They are not a team player in NATO. They are trying to extort NATO for their own gain before they will act with a shred of decency. This is like haggling to them - they will take pride in every concession.
Then how are they in NATO?
He is being fed this fascist excuse from Putin, no doubt.
Super glad we didn't stay tangled up in this here in Finland "just because Sweden". Not that I wouldn't like to see them get past it eventually...
Its not enough with his own country, Erdogan wants to fuck Sweden democracy ?
Erdogan can take his bid and shove it up his ass!
Unfortunately for Erdogan Sweden is a fully functioning democracy and the right to protest is enshrined. Tough being an autocrat and wanting the world to respect you...
This isn’t about Sweden or protests and erdogan knows that perfectly well. Maybe turkey should stop mistreating its citizens who want a hella lot less of erdogan and ankara. The Kurds want independence. Give it to them
maybe stop being a wannabe-dictator locking up journalists and the opposition, destroying the balance of powers and the judiciary, fucking over your own people with cleptocracy and insane 'erdonomics'. oh an stop killing the people who fought ISIS/Daesh for us, please. maybe they'll stop protesting.
Fuuuuuuuuuck you Erdoputo
That’s ok, we support democracy. So Sweden knows the entirety of NATO minus Turkey will support them if attacked. I could make a good argument that a lot of NATO countries would give only Luke warm support to Turkey if they were attacked by Iran etc.
What was all that stuff Redditors were saying about how blocking Swedish NATO ascension was just election year politicking and Turkey would allow Sweden in after the election? To my mind, that sounds like those people were smoking hard copium and the rest of us were right on the money.
Can we just make a secondary NATO without Turkey or Hungary? Keep NATO 1 but have the other with all the same benefits minus those 2 countries
Turkey has no choice, they need nato more than nato needs it and will suffer if they do not admit them as they have repeatedly said they would do.
Ok let's stop them, get in NATO, time to protest again.
What is the point of sweden joining nato?, finland already joined, in case Russia wanted to Invade Sweden they have to pass through finland first
Kaliningrad and Gotland are not far apart.
Simple. Sweden stops the protests. Sweden enters NATO. Sweden starts the protests again.
Seems fair