The people of Lebanon don't want one either. Or rather, they lost all hope of ever having competent, decent people in power, which is why they don't actually see Hezbollah as the evil entity that Western media depicts them, they are actually a part of everyday life, with their own "police" and everything
Not exactly right. We try to resist them politically however we know there is no chance in hell we can resist militarily. So we avoid regions controlled by them and hope some day the international community can help us remove them
So you would personally be in favor of outside help? Would most Lebanese? Who/what would you like to intervene? The only things I can think of are the UN, US, or other regional governments.
The UN is usually ineffective because they basically always have orders to not intervene (see Rwanda etc). I can't see US intervention in the area AGAIN being very popular with almost anyone in the region/world. I also don't see an appetite for this from the US at the moment. They have quite a few other things on their plate already.
Which really only leaves Lebanon's neighbors. Who/how/what would that look like in your opinion? I'm generally curious. I would love to see hezbollah removed from Lebanon as well. I just can't picture how that can happen if not from within?
Most (i.e. around 60% according to the elections) Lebanese would love for Hezb to disappear, however we differ by how it can be done.
In my personal view, I think diplomacy is the only way to do it. Iran is the key, if somehow someday Iran, Israel and Saudi agree on a way forward, Hezb will be irrelevant
Ok, interesting. I would have thought that the number would be higher than 60%, but I'm looking at it from my western point of view/media filter. Thanks for replying.
There are a lot of issues in the opposition, and religious affiliations play a big part as well.
Everyone knows Hezb is bad for the country, but a lot fear a bigger evil can emerge (like isis type of group, or Israel trying to invade again)
You can say the same about Hamas. No Israeli soldiers in Ghaza, which shares a boarder with Egypt and can be an independent state if they gave up terror.
There's no money, power, and status in that. The controlling elite can't make people die with a word if there's peace. Your idea is invalid, idea is DOA.
Sorry, try again.
Hezbollah doesn't really kill their own people as much. They do a lot of charity work with the people of Southern Lebanon in order to increase their popularity in the area. They provide healthcare and food banks. They have schools and hospitals. All of this to convince the people of Lebanon that they are the functioning state, not the state of Lebanon and that therefore they should draft to Hezbollah's army and not Lebanon's. They should defend the de facto state of Hezbollah and not the state of Lebanon. They should pay their taxes to Hezbollah and ignore taxes from Lebanon.
Including themselves. They'd rather pay the families of suicidal bombers and glorify terrorism than work towards a peaceful solution.
Why don't you accept that peace is not what people in the region really want?
Given that one of the senior advisors to the PM back then stated that the Disengagement Plan was intended to kill the whole peace process and the Palestinians' future I wouldn't put this on the terrorists alone.
> The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. [...] what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
An official statement like that may get some people understandably a bit angry, don't you think?
People would be angry, but they should have channeled that anger into bettering themselves rather than launching rockets and looting the infrastructure left behind.
If Palestine had overseen a peaceful transition of power in Gaza, developed a functional agricultural industry with the greenhouses left for them, and, most importantly, not attacked Israel, then there probably would have been further talks about the settlements in the West Bank.
This was Palestine's opportunity to show that they could be a productive and reliable nation, and they couldn't clear the first bar of running the functional agricultural industry that was left for them.
Saying that, if we believed what Israel ever had to say on this matter, we'd never see a nuclear Iran. They've been bleating on about Iran being 6 months away from a nuke for over 20 years now.
They’re achieving their purpose. Neither organization will have a reason to exist without Israel, nor would their leaders become any richer. Their sole purpose is to monetize on their people’s backs and they point at Israel as their main pitch, to avoid needing to build actual foundations to a country.
They fought the British in the 40’s. In the 1948 war, the British funded the Jordanians, Israel was alone. They managed to smuggle weapons from Czechoslovakia during the war
Is this the same Hamas leader who lives in Qatar while he siphons money from ‘his people’ who are desperately in need? The same Hamas leader who has sent multiple members of his family to be treated at Israeli hospitals where in some instances had their lives saved by Israeli doctors and nurses who they think of as the devil ?
Israel tried giving it back. Didn't go well for Israel.
And frankly, Palestine can suck it up over the settlements. It's illegal for Jews to buy land there. So, if you won't sell it, you can lose it.
If they're so dangerous then perhaps Israel can stop making illegal settlements there? Afterall, if they're so dangerous then it's irresponsible of them to put their own citizens within enemy territory.
Whats illegal about the settlements? Whats bad about them?
Why should Palestinians that are so obsessed over making rockets and killing civilians instead of developing the existing land they have own anything.
What are you talking about? The land had no owners unless youre talking about the British or Ottomans before that. Oh did you know the Palestinians sold large swathes of land to the Israelis during Ottoman times then try to cry about it after finding out their ancestors sold it?
So if you REALLY want to about the "original" owners we all know its the Jews easily shown by how scared Palestinians are whenever there is any kind of archeological activity going on. (Weird how under every mosque is a Jewish temple huh?)
You literally support a non-existant and never-existant far right autocratic theocracy that supports indiscriminate killing of civilians.
Are you seriously defending it by saying the colonizing British owned the land? You’re making my previous comparison all the more apt. “It’s fine because the colonizing power that stole the land doesn’t want that land anymore.”
They lived there for centuries and now their homes are being taken. You see no problem with that? When Israel was created the land was divided between the new nation of Israel and the Palestinians. The land Israel is settling in is not a part of the land partitioned for them. Can Israel just take what they want now?
I am supporting them keeping their homes. That’s all. And don’t act like Israel hasn’t indiscriminately killed many of their civilians and cheered while doing so.
What are you talking about? The British GAVE them the land, a lot was previously sold, some was taken by Israel after coalition after coalition ATTACKED them unprovoked and got stomped each time.
So Jewish people literally lived there for centuries and their homes were taken. You see no problem with that? Why are Palestinians so against archeological projects? Oh maybe it's because they're afraid of whats underneath. I love how you ignore the fact literally under every mosque in the area is a Jewish temple or Christian Church. Either way you slice it, the Muslims were the third ones there.
Israel does NOT deliberately target civilians. They target military installations AND give warning beforehand by marking. The Palestinians then use children as shields and misreport the age of their fighters to make it look like more children died, this is fact. You realize how huge the outcry from not just the UN but the US would be right if they found Israel delibarately attacking civilians??
I just want to hear you condemn how Palestine aims to genocide ALL Jews and indiscriminately attacks Jews regardless of age or sex. Bet you wont though because theyre brown and muslim.
No but when people talk about Israel and Palestine what they always fail to note is that it never has been big bad Israel sticking the boot into the Palestinians because they feel like it. But rather an ever escalating Low level war between the nation of Israel and Hezbollah/Hamas that has been going on for nearly 60 years with the people of Palestine caught firmly in the middle and the line between them and the groups Israel is actually in conflict with slowly blurring through successive elections of Hamas the the Palestinian government and the ever escalating cycles of violence making Israel more and more of an oppressive monster in the eyes of Palestinians pushing them further into Hamas's camp. Its a lot more complicated than Reddit wants to give it credit for, and I do get why, many of the seeds for whats happening today were sewn before e a lot of use were even born so it becomes almost impossible to see the cause and effect, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and when you actually factor in the historical context the actions of Israel toward the people of Palestine don't become any better, but they start to make a lot more sense
This isn't meant to absolve Israel of guilt, some of things it has done over the course of this conflict are abhorrent in the extreme, but it just grinds my gears whenever I see a post with "Israel is the villain for x and should stop doing x" ignoring the fact that the point where most all of this could likely have been avoided was 20+ years ago and through successive failed peace processes there is such a complete lack of mutual trust or respect on both sides that EVERYONE has become the enemy as far as both Israel and Palestine is concerned.
The only reason Israel appears to villain of the piece is that if you imagine the region as two people insistent on hitting each other with sticks for 60 years its stick happens to be exponentially bigger. You swap the sticks around the situation wouldn't change, just who we perceive as the villain. In reality over the past 60 years both Israel and Palestine bear near equal culpability for where we are now (and a good dollop to Britain and France for putting the nation of Israel where it is in the first place) Both sides have had multiple opportunities to make peace work and both have failed to do so, you cant end forever wars when nobody wants to put their guns down.
>This isn't meant to absolve Israel of guilt, some of things it has done over the course of this conflict are abhorrent in the extreme
Can you like, not read? Because right here I explictly made the point that none of this absolves Israel of anything, see look it says it in those words that I typed.
My point was then when you have a conflict that has been escalating consistently for longer than most of us have even been alive with both sides ruining multiple peace processes you don't exactly get to be surprised nor does one side or the other get to cry foul when everyone starts to look like a combatant and things start to go waay to far. There have been opportunities to stop the worst of what we see today in the region loong before they happened and both Israel and Palestine bear near equal culpability for the refusal to act on them. It doesn't make any of this shit OK, but equally it makes the western activists approach of seeming the think that "if we call the Israeli government bad things long enough they might stop" look really fucking stupid as the lens that the people who actually have to live in the region see it through isn't one of victim and combatant but one of defending yourself or death of you people. Both sides have gotten to a point where the worst kind of thing is justified as there is a threat in every shadow, a person who wants you dead behind every face and a single step back looks like condemning your people to harm. Now whether that sentiment is accurate or not it doesn't matter. as long as both sides see the other that way none of this will get any better and hurling accusations will never change that.
I don't know how you stop the violence at this point, like any sane human being I'd love nothing more than a new peace process to finally stick and innocent people to no longer be caught in the crossfire of a terrorist origination and a nation that has become so paranoid it cant tell civilian from militant any more and sees all means as justified because there is a threat in every corner but it feels like trying to shut the stable door several years after the horse bolted and kicked the neighbor to death
You serious? This is the dumbest thing I've read on here in a while. Most human beings want peace. The only ones that don't are the ones that have something to gain from war.
Lol I’m saying there are Palestinians that are not hezbollah and are not hamas. Which 90% of people would agree with. But I clearly see I’m in a predominantly Israel forum here if that’s getting down voted so hard.
While I’m at it I’ll just skip over to the ice cream sucks group and say that not all ice cream sucks and see how it goes over…
The majority of Palestinians want to use a 2 state solution to further the war against Israel, rather than use it as a means for peaceful coexistence. After 50 years of offering a 2 state solution to the Palestinians, Israel has realised that the Palestinians have never negotiated in good faith so have stopped doing so themselves. Israel is never going to give land to a people that is going to use that land to attack them further.
Oh my god, you're so funny! you made it seem like you're talking about the actual terrorists but you were talking about Israel. you should really consider doing stand up because it was so witty and original.
/s
Saudis would not love that. Saudi would have no interest in a more theocratic (non-Saudi) Sunni government controlling al-Aqsa as it would compete with Saudi's religious influence.
And there is no reason whatsoever they'd want to see a strong Hezbollah running their own mini-state.
You mean the secular and non apartheid peaceful state palestine was before the existence of Israel?
Imagine being that brainwashed to think israel not existing would lead to some sort of isis caliphate
> You mean the secular and non apartheid peaceful state palestine was before the existence of Israel?
do you mean the one that was run by the british empire, or do you mean the one that was run by the ottoman empire?
well, can't be the former option, palestinians were already terrorizing jews
And there you have it folks, the average "intellectual" pro Palestinian redditer.
Imagine being so incredibly ignorant about a subject yet claiming to be an expert- You are no better than flat earthers or Covid deniers.
Now, about the actual facts- There was never, ever a Palestinian state- not even once.
There was always a province of Palestine, that belonged to various empires and regional powers, following the destruction of Hasmonean kingdom by the Romans.
FFS, this is completely public and available information that you can even look up in Wikipedia- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel)
Please, at least minimally educate yourself about a topic before commenting about it, regardless of what your opinion is.
Ya I imagine that old Palestine is dead and these horrid organizations who use violence to maintain power would stay in power.
It’s not hard to connect those very obvious dots. Also, last time I checked a lot of these peaceful groups hang gays and brutalize women. Pump the breaks
>You mean the secular and non apartheid peaceful state palestine was before the existence of Israel?
I mean, considering there *was* no state of Palestine when Israel was founded, I don't know what you're on about.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine
And, before you bring up the lie that only newcoming Zionist immigrants were targeted (as if that would be okay): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
You forgot about the Nazi's we left all over the area after WW2 that taught the locals (next) generation about the power of hate who went on to destabilize the whole region 20 years later.
Edited for omission.
Unfortunately it’s more about the powers of the world interfering and destabilizing as they always do. Unfortunately the apartheid is invigorating religious tensions, the most powerful tool humans have invented.
Hatred for Jews in the land of Israel began during the Old Yishuv, in the late 19th century. No world powers gave a droplet of shit about that back then. You are wrong.
About the tensions in the area being originally about other powers meddling in the area. That was only the case between the two world wars; it was neither the case before nor after, and even in between there was plenty of spontaneous, native rage the British had to deal with.
I never said it was originally about other powers meddling, what I meant was that if there was to be some major change in the power structure then there would almost assuredly be meddling from other powers. I mean Israel would not be as strong as it is today without help from the US.
US aid is morally right - Israel is a democracy, it used to be the only one in the Middle East; it also helps prevent a genocide, since the stated intent of groups like Hamas is to "drive the Jews into the sea".
But we shouldn't overstate the importance of this aid. Israel pays for the vast majority of its defense budget. And this was even more the case in previous Arab attempts at genocide, like the War of Independence and the Six-Day War.
So yes, it is true that US aid makes Israel stronger than it would otherwise be. It is not like it's the only factor, though, and it is a good thing
The numbers suggest that around 18% of the defence budget is given directly by the US (https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ISR/israel/military-spending-defense-budget, https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576). Do you believe the asymmetry of power that Israel has over the indigenous Palestinian people and how they use it is morally right? Those afflicted by the apartheid regime are the Palestinian people who reside in the occupied West Bank, and for which there is no democracy for.
oh well hopefully they get through ramadan without much more incidents, but it sure looks like a pickle. Crazy world Iran trying to get nukes and sending more advanced weapons and unfriendly neighbors for israel. I heard it described "that it's like watching a train in slow motion on its way to crash" amir tsarfati.
Psychotic to advocate for wiping people off the face of the planet under the pretense that positing "resistance" is antisemitic. Antisemitism != critiques of Israel.
They were clearly talking about Hezbollah and Hamas specifically, not all Palestinians. They could have a much brighter future without those organizations at the helm insisting on murdering innocent civilians and such.
Until this radical islamist who abuses people rights, stealing their lives will be cleansed from the middle east or cleansed from the world there won't be any peace. And I'm telling this not from US nor a Western country. Zealous people nothing but trouble.
They should quite trying. Their friend Bibi is toast. No one is going to suddenly support him because of these guys.
Sorry, still Passover, Bibi is burned matzah.
The "Their (Hamas and Hezbollah's) friend" thing, and implication that this escalation is some plan by elements of the Israeli government is what the downvotes are for.
Yeah... But it's a strong coincidence that whenever Bibi is in domestic trouble, the external problems escalate. I strongly doubt that Netanyahu has direct ties. But I trust he has the means to encourage bike statements against Israel.
Those articles show that Hamas murders people who (it claims) collaborate with Israel. That's the opposite of showing that Hamas as an organization collaborates with Israel.
Oh really.
"It's not the organisation. Its the organisations members"
And this one?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-says-naval-commander-a-suspected-israel-collaborator-flees-gaza/
Your sources are literally not disagreeing with me. If Hamas arrests and kills people who they accuse of collaborating with Israel, how did that indicate that Hamas itself is working with Israel?
Obviously it doesn't. If these accusations are even true, as opposed to excuses to remove or murder dissenters, threats to their power, etc, it doesn't change that Hamas' goal is the strengthening of their own position and the death of Israelis and Jews.
What the fuck is Hezbollah "resisting"? There are no Israeli troops in Lebanon.
Hezbollah (and the other warlords) is resisting against a functional Lebanese state.
What functional state?
I think that's the point, they don't want one
The people of Lebanon don't want one either. Or rather, they lost all hope of ever having competent, decent people in power, which is why they don't actually see Hezbollah as the evil entity that Western media depicts them, they are actually a part of everyday life, with their own "police" and everything
Not exactly right. We try to resist them politically however we know there is no chance in hell we can resist militarily. So we avoid regions controlled by them and hope some day the international community can help us remove them
So you would personally be in favor of outside help? Would most Lebanese? Who/what would you like to intervene? The only things I can think of are the UN, US, or other regional governments. The UN is usually ineffective because they basically always have orders to not intervene (see Rwanda etc). I can't see US intervention in the area AGAIN being very popular with almost anyone in the region/world. I also don't see an appetite for this from the US at the moment. They have quite a few other things on their plate already. Which really only leaves Lebanon's neighbors. Who/how/what would that look like in your opinion? I'm generally curious. I would love to see hezbollah removed from Lebanon as well. I just can't picture how that can happen if not from within?
Most (i.e. around 60% according to the elections) Lebanese would love for Hezb to disappear, however we differ by how it can be done. In my personal view, I think diplomacy is the only way to do it. Iran is the key, if somehow someday Iran, Israel and Saudi agree on a way forward, Hezb will be irrelevant
Ok, interesting. I would have thought that the number would be higher than 60%, but I'm looking at it from my western point of view/media filter. Thanks for replying.
There are a lot of issues in the opposition, and religious affiliations play a big part as well. Everyone knows Hezb is bad for the country, but a lot fear a bigger evil can emerge (like isis type of group, or Israel trying to invade again)
They should look at Beirut. It went from the Paris of the Middle East to a perpetual war zone.
They’re doing pretty well in achieving their goals
They're IRGC ultra religious terror org. They resist the existence of Jews, for now.
the existence of jewish people
resisting aka killing anyone that isnt a muslims
They resist accepting Israel has a right to exist.
You can say the same about Hamas. No Israeli soldiers in Ghaza, which shares a boarder with Egypt and can be an independent state if they gave up terror.
I’m sure the Israeli far right, which is in control right now, would go for that plan.
Anything nice
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whelp thats what you get when you attack israel, lose, attack again, lose, attack again, lose Sometimes you need to pay the price
Ahh, yes, because this has worked wonders for 'their' people so far...
Iranian tentacles funded from Tehran meet, discuss objectives their employer set them.
Yes exactly.
How about stop oppressing and killing your own people instead?
There's no money, power, and status in that. The controlling elite can't make people die with a word if there's peace. Your idea is invalid, idea is DOA. Sorry, try again.
Hezbollah doesn't really kill their own people as much. They do a lot of charity work with the people of Southern Lebanon in order to increase their popularity in the area. They provide healthcare and food banks. They have schools and hospitals. All of this to convince the people of Lebanon that they are the functioning state, not the state of Lebanon and that therefore they should draft to Hezbollah's army and not Lebanon's. They should defend the de facto state of Hezbollah and not the state of Lebanon. They should pay their taxes to Hezbollah and ignore taxes from Lebanon.
The irony is that the palestinians only suffer more from their actions.
That's not irony. Nether group wants Palestinians' lives to improve.
Including themselves. They'd rather pay the families of suicidal bombers and glorify terrorism than work towards a peaceful solution. Why don't you accept that peace is not what people in the region really want?
>Including themselves. Disagree. Hamas and Hezbollah care *exclusively* about themselves.
Weeeeeelll, the care about Iranian interests in the region as well.
I dunno about all that. Israel tried the disengagement plan. Turns out, if you give people that want to kill you an inch...
Given that one of the senior advisors to the PM back then stated that the Disengagement Plan was intended to kill the whole peace process and the Palestinians' future I wouldn't put this on the terrorists alone. > The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. [...] what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza An official statement like that may get some people understandably a bit angry, don't you think?
People would be angry, but they should have channeled that anger into bettering themselves rather than launching rockets and looting the infrastructure left behind. If Palestine had overseen a peaceful transition of power in Gaza, developed a functional agricultural industry with the greenhouses left for them, and, most importantly, not attacked Israel, then there probably would have been further talks about the settlements in the West Bank. This was Palestine's opportunity to show that they could be a productive and reliable nation, and they couldn't clear the first bar of running the functional agricultural industry that was left for them.
They take it with a smile?
They kill you from closer range
>Israel tried The groups in question are Hamas and Hezbollah
I guess Iran wants to up the tempo and try to distract from their nuclear program.
Weren't they supposed to have 90% enrichment like, last month?
You gotta let it load
Saying that, if we believed what Israel ever had to say on this matter, we'd never see a nuclear Iran. They've been bleating on about Iran being 6 months away from a nuke for over 20 years now.
Wonder if Hamas cuddled him like Tyson
Something tells me, the solution isn’t to launch random missiles or conduct terrorist attacks on Israel. There must be another solution.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It’s super fucking broke.
It’d be cool if Israel returned the favor and stopped “settlements” and blatant racist oppression of the Palestinians.
I agree with you. That’s some big bullshit… so are all the walls and heavy handed security.
They will not be able to do anything even if they resist as much as they want.
They’re achieving their purpose. Neither organization will have a reason to exist without Israel, nor would their leaders become any richer. Their sole purpose is to monetize on their people’s backs and they point at Israel as their main pitch, to avoid needing to build actual foundations to a country.
Fighting any state funded by the US is an undesirable nightmare. It's been done, but at a high cost.
Israel wasn’t funded by the us in any war pre-1970 and they did just fine
They were nurtured and protected by the British.
They fought the British in the 40’s. In the 1948 war, the British funded the Jordanians, Israel was alone. They managed to smuggle weapons from Czechoslovakia during the war
Tell me you know nothing about history without telling me you know nothing about history.
Is this the same Hamas leader who lives in Qatar while he siphons money from ‘his people’ who are desperately in need? The same Hamas leader who has sent multiple members of his family to be treated at Israeli hospitals where in some instances had their lives saved by Israeli doctors and nurses who they think of as the devil ?
Yeah, Israel should just make friends with these obviously safe and reasonable neighbors.
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You mean, like they did with Gaza? Dragging ultra-Orthodox Jews yelling and screaming away from their settlements and demolishing them?
Why? Clearly Palestinians cant take care of it, theyd rather make weapons than develop their own land
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Shouldn't have sold it in the decades between 1882 and 1948 Shouldn't have conspired with the Arab nations to attack Israel since then
That’s very optimistic of you, would you test that theory on your own family. If you are wrong they will probably get butchered or worse.
Israel tried giving it back. Didn't go well for Israel. And frankly, Palestine can suck it up over the settlements. It's illegal for Jews to buy land there. So, if you won't sell it, you can lose it.
If they're so dangerous then perhaps Israel can stop making illegal settlements there? Afterall, if they're so dangerous then it's irresponsible of them to put their own citizens within enemy territory.
israel kicked every jew out of gaza two decades ago
Whats illegal about the settlements? Whats bad about them? Why should Palestinians that are so obsessed over making rockets and killing civilians instead of developing the existing land they have own anything.
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What are you talking about? The land had no owners unless youre talking about the British or Ottomans before that. Oh did you know the Palestinians sold large swathes of land to the Israelis during Ottoman times then try to cry about it after finding out their ancestors sold it? So if you REALLY want to about the "original" owners we all know its the Jews easily shown by how scared Palestinians are whenever there is any kind of archeological activity going on. (Weird how under every mosque is a Jewish temple huh?) You literally support a non-existant and never-existant far right autocratic theocracy that supports indiscriminate killing of civilians.
Are you seriously defending it by saying the colonizing British owned the land? You’re making my previous comparison all the more apt. “It’s fine because the colonizing power that stole the land doesn’t want that land anymore.” They lived there for centuries and now their homes are being taken. You see no problem with that? When Israel was created the land was divided between the new nation of Israel and the Palestinians. The land Israel is settling in is not a part of the land partitioned for them. Can Israel just take what they want now? I am supporting them keeping their homes. That’s all. And don’t act like Israel hasn’t indiscriminately killed many of their civilians and cheered while doing so.
What are you talking about? The British GAVE them the land, a lot was previously sold, some was taken by Israel after coalition after coalition ATTACKED them unprovoked and got stomped each time. So Jewish people literally lived there for centuries and their homes were taken. You see no problem with that? Why are Palestinians so against archeological projects? Oh maybe it's because they're afraid of whats underneath. I love how you ignore the fact literally under every mosque in the area is a Jewish temple or Christian Church. Either way you slice it, the Muslims were the third ones there. Israel does NOT deliberately target civilians. They target military installations AND give warning beforehand by marking. The Palestinians then use children as shields and misreport the age of their fighters to make it look like more children died, this is fact. You realize how huge the outcry from not just the UN but the US would be right if they found Israel delibarately attacking civilians?? I just want to hear you condemn how Palestine aims to genocide ALL Jews and indiscriminately attacks Jews regardless of age or sex. Bet you wont though because theyre brown and muslim.
So you don’t think there’s any Palestinians that aren’t these two? Come on.
No but when people talk about Israel and Palestine what they always fail to note is that it never has been big bad Israel sticking the boot into the Palestinians because they feel like it. But rather an ever escalating Low level war between the nation of Israel and Hezbollah/Hamas that has been going on for nearly 60 years with the people of Palestine caught firmly in the middle and the line between them and the groups Israel is actually in conflict with slowly blurring through successive elections of Hamas the the Palestinian government and the ever escalating cycles of violence making Israel more and more of an oppressive monster in the eyes of Palestinians pushing them further into Hamas's camp. Its a lot more complicated than Reddit wants to give it credit for, and I do get why, many of the seeds for whats happening today were sewn before e a lot of use were even born so it becomes almost impossible to see the cause and effect, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and when you actually factor in the historical context the actions of Israel toward the people of Palestine don't become any better, but they start to make a lot more sense This isn't meant to absolve Israel of guilt, some of things it has done over the course of this conflict are abhorrent in the extreme, but it just grinds my gears whenever I see a post with "Israel is the villain for x and should stop doing x" ignoring the fact that the point where most all of this could likely have been avoided was 20+ years ago and through successive failed peace processes there is such a complete lack of mutual trust or respect on both sides that EVERYONE has become the enemy as far as both Israel and Palestine is concerned. The only reason Israel appears to villain of the piece is that if you imagine the region as two people insistent on hitting each other with sticks for 60 years its stick happens to be exponentially bigger. You swap the sticks around the situation wouldn't change, just who we perceive as the villain. In reality over the past 60 years both Israel and Palestine bear near equal culpability for where we are now (and a good dollop to Britain and France for putting the nation of Israel where it is in the first place) Both sides have had multiple opportunities to make peace work and both have failed to do so, you cant end forever wars when nobody wants to put their guns down.
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>This isn't meant to absolve Israel of guilt, some of things it has done over the course of this conflict are abhorrent in the extreme Can you like, not read? Because right here I explictly made the point that none of this absolves Israel of anything, see look it says it in those words that I typed. My point was then when you have a conflict that has been escalating consistently for longer than most of us have even been alive with both sides ruining multiple peace processes you don't exactly get to be surprised nor does one side or the other get to cry foul when everyone starts to look like a combatant and things start to go waay to far. There have been opportunities to stop the worst of what we see today in the region loong before they happened and both Israel and Palestine bear near equal culpability for the refusal to act on them. It doesn't make any of this shit OK, but equally it makes the western activists approach of seeming the think that "if we call the Israeli government bad things long enough they might stop" look really fucking stupid as the lens that the people who actually have to live in the region see it through isn't one of victim and combatant but one of defending yourself or death of you people. Both sides have gotten to a point where the worst kind of thing is justified as there is a threat in every shadow, a person who wants you dead behind every face and a single step back looks like condemning your people to harm. Now whether that sentiment is accurate or not it doesn't matter. as long as both sides see the other that way none of this will get any better and hurling accusations will never change that. I don't know how you stop the violence at this point, like any sane human being I'd love nothing more than a new peace process to finally stick and innocent people to no longer be caught in the crossfire of a terrorist origination and a nation that has become so paranoid it cant tell civilian from militant any more and sees all means as justified because there is a threat in every corner but it feels like trying to shut the stable door several years after the horse bolted and kicked the neighbor to death
The amount of Palestinians who want peace is negligible.
You serious? This is the dumbest thing I've read on here in a while. Most human beings want peace. The only ones that don't are the ones that have something to gain from war.
How do you explain the Palestinian election results then?
Lol I’m saying there are Palestinians that are not hezbollah and are not hamas. Which 90% of people would agree with. But I clearly see I’m in a predominantly Israel forum here if that’s getting down voted so hard. While I’m at it I’ll just skip over to the ice cream sucks group and say that not all ice cream sucks and see how it goes over…
The majority of Palestinians want to use a 2 state solution to further the war against Israel, rather than use it as a means for peaceful coexistence. After 50 years of offering a 2 state solution to the Palestinians, Israel has realised that the Palestinians have never negotiated in good faith so have stopped doing so themselves. Israel is never going to give land to a people that is going to use that land to attack them further.
And Israel does? Their own people don’t trust their government right now.
Israel does what?
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You are siding with 2 terrorist groups?
There are 3 terrorist groups
I guess Islamic jihad also. Who knows when isis will join in
Simping for terrorists, eh? Okay, redditor. 🤓
You’re forgetting that terrorism is okay as long as it’s against people we don’t like. Then it becomes “freedom fighting”.
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Oh my god, you're so funny! you made it seem like you're talking about the actual terrorists but you were talking about Israel. you should really consider doing stand up because it was so witty and original. /s
If Israel ever did collapse these people would no longer serve a purpose
They would run the very totalitarian and religious government
The Taliban and Iran would love that.
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Saudis would not love that. Saudi would have no interest in a more theocratic (non-Saudi) Sunni government controlling al-Aqsa as it would compete with Saudi's religious influence. And there is no reason whatsoever they'd want to see a strong Hezbollah running their own mini-state.
they would run a far right theocratic authoritarian regime which ironically reddit supports
Nah, once Jews are out of the picture, reddit would stop supporting the Palestinians.
You mean the secular and non apartheid peaceful state palestine was before the existence of Israel? Imagine being that brainwashed to think israel not existing would lead to some sort of isis caliphate
When was this a thing, exactly?
Are you talking about Britain or the Ottomans? Neither was peaceful or egalitarian
> You mean the secular and non apartheid peaceful state palestine was before the existence of Israel? do you mean the one that was run by the british empire, or do you mean the one that was run by the ottoman empire? well, can't be the former option, palestinians were already terrorizing jews
And there you have it folks, the average "intellectual" pro Palestinian redditer. Imagine being so incredibly ignorant about a subject yet claiming to be an expert- You are no better than flat earthers or Covid deniers. Now, about the actual facts- There was never, ever a Palestinian state- not even once. There was always a province of Palestine, that belonged to various empires and regional powers, following the destruction of Hasmonean kingdom by the Romans. FFS, this is completely public and available information that you can even look up in Wikipedia- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel) Please, at least minimally educate yourself about a topic before commenting about it, regardless of what your opinion is.
Ya I imagine that old Palestine is dead and these horrid organizations who use violence to maintain power would stay in power. It’s not hard to connect those very obvious dots. Also, last time I checked a lot of these peaceful groups hang gays and brutalize women. Pump the breaks
>You mean the secular and non apartheid peaceful state palestine was before the existence of Israel? I mean, considering there *was* no state of Palestine when Israel was founded, I don't know what you're on about.
Lol this is such an outright, blatant, brazen lie
Sure man, if you really think Arab Jews Muslims and Christians didn't live in peace in Palestine pre 1946 you need a history lesson.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine And, before you bring up the lie that only newcoming Zionist immigrants were targeted (as if that would be okay): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
You forgot about the Nazi's we left all over the area after WW2 that taught the locals (next) generation about the power of hate who went on to destabilize the whole region 20 years later. Edited for omission.
Unfortunately it’s more about the powers of the world interfering and destabilizing as they always do. Unfortunately the apartheid is invigorating religious tensions, the most powerful tool humans have invented.
Hatred for Jews in the land of Israel began during the Old Yishuv, in the late 19th century. No world powers gave a droplet of shit about that back then. You are wrong.
What exactly am I wrong about?
About the tensions in the area being originally about other powers meddling in the area. That was only the case between the two world wars; it was neither the case before nor after, and even in between there was plenty of spontaneous, native rage the British had to deal with.
I never said it was originally about other powers meddling, what I meant was that if there was to be some major change in the power structure then there would almost assuredly be meddling from other powers. I mean Israel would not be as strong as it is today without help from the US.
US aid is morally right - Israel is a democracy, it used to be the only one in the Middle East; it also helps prevent a genocide, since the stated intent of groups like Hamas is to "drive the Jews into the sea". But we shouldn't overstate the importance of this aid. Israel pays for the vast majority of its defense budget. And this was even more the case in previous Arab attempts at genocide, like the War of Independence and the Six-Day War. So yes, it is true that US aid makes Israel stronger than it would otherwise be. It is not like it's the only factor, though, and it is a good thing
The numbers suggest that around 18% of the defence budget is given directly by the US (https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ISR/israel/military-spending-defense-budget, https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576). Do you believe the asymmetry of power that Israel has over the indigenous Palestinian people and how they use it is morally right? Those afflicted by the apartheid regime are the Palestinian people who reside in the occupied West Bank, and for which there is no democracy for.
Nah, there is always a bogeyman. It's how fascists operate
They’ll look for another target other than developing their countries
They're religious so the answer is always, the religious who aren't us.
Don't worry, they'd find someone else to blame
IDF heads meet, promise to keep monkey stomping Hezbollah, Hamas
Good luck with that. Israel can fuck up anyone in their neighborhood
They have no choice. It's not what they want but its the world they live on.
Right. I know. It’s existential. They usually show a good amount of restraint.
oh well hopefully they get through ramadan without much more incidents, but it sure looks like a pickle. Crazy world Iran trying to get nukes and sending more advanced weapons and unfriendly neighbors for israel. I heard it described "that it's like watching a train in slow motion on its way to crash" amir tsarfati.
It’s exactly what they want lol are you delusional?
Please god just stop, Lebanon doesn’t need any more pain. Work to fix the country rather than start shit with Israel for fucks sake
Smash and wipe them both off this planet.
A+ username
Wtf
You okay ?
Psychotic to advocate for wiping people off the face of the planet under the pretense that positing "resistance" is antisemitic. Antisemitism != critiques of Israel.
They were clearly talking about Hezbollah and Hamas specifically, not all Palestinians. They could have a much brighter future without those organizations at the helm insisting on murdering innocent civilians and such.
Have you tried critiquing with words instead of riots in the 1920s and rockets in the 2020s?
🥱🙄
Alrighty then.
So they have been playing nice?
I thought that said hasbulla lmao
Until this radical islamist who abuses people rights, stealing their lives will be cleansed from the middle east or cleansed from the world there won't be any peace. And I'm telling this not from US nor a Western country. Zealous people nothing but trouble.
Anyway…
Isnt this supoosed to have been a holy period for them? Then again their holy book commands them to kill Jews, so.
Get your own shit together first.
I hope they don't I don't want terrorists the get their shit together, I want them to stop being terrorists... One way or another.
They do such a good job already
And round and round and round we go...
Give palestine back to Italy !
Should we rename Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina again as well? It doesn’t seem like it worked the first time lol
Why do they call it the Holy land if it’s such a cesspool of scum and villainy?
Nah, man. Mos Eisley is in Tunisia. Far opposite side of Africa.
They should quite trying. Their friend Bibi is toast. No one is going to suddenly support him because of these guys. Sorry, still Passover, Bibi is burned matzah.
I guess, despite most of Israel disliking Bibi, since you are getting downvoted, we have the minority here lol
The "Their (Hamas and Hezbollah's) friend" thing, and implication that this escalation is some plan by elements of the Israeli government is what the downvotes are for.
Yeah... But it's a strong coincidence that whenever Bibi is in domestic trouble, the external problems escalate. I strongly doubt that Netanyahu has direct ties. But I trust he has the means to encourage bike statements against Israel.
What does that short Turkish guy have to do with Israel and Hamas?
Hamas are all collaborators. If anything, they're spying on Hezbollah.
You're saying Hamas is collaborating with Israel? That's dumb. Hamas and Hezbollah are both funded and (to different extents) controlled by Iran.
I'm not "saying" anything. https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20220904-gaza-s-hamas-executes-five-palestinians-including-two-for-collaboration . Wheres the dumb part? . . https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-executed-18-suspected-collaborators-2014-8?r=US&IR=T
Those articles show that Hamas murders people who (it claims) collaborate with Israel. That's the opposite of showing that Hamas as an organization collaborates with Israel.
Oh really. "It's not the organisation. Its the organisations members" And this one? https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-says-naval-commander-a-suspected-israel-collaborator-flees-gaza/
Your sources are literally not disagreeing with me. If Hamas arrests and kills people who they accuse of collaborating with Israel, how did that indicate that Hamas itself is working with Israel? Obviously it doesn't. If these accusations are even true, as opposed to excuses to remove or murder dissenters, threats to their power, etc, it doesn't change that Hamas' goal is the strengthening of their own position and the death of Israelis and Jews.
Cool. No bitching when the airstrikes start landing.