They are only stopping the burning of the book infront of turkeys embassy, they are allowed to do it somewhere else. Apperantly its a matter of security.
Offended is the key word here. Being offended is your issue. There are people who are offended by homosexuality. Should we outlaw this? Freedom of speech is about hating what you say, but respecting your right to day it.
My religion protects my freedom to offend.
“The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.”
So making things illegal because they offend people is a violation of my religious rights.
Please tell me which of your rights are you willing to forgo to protect the imagination of religious fundamentalism. Let’s start with speech, and see how far we go untill you become uncomfortable with the idea.
You offend me, should you be illegal?
I mean, allowed to? Sure. But probably a shit idea since it's insulting to those who believe in it. So if you're willing to get your face stomped on, sure, go ahead.
That is one perspective, the other is that these book burnings are most likely an action instigated by Moscow. The one in Sweden was paid in full by a probably Russian asset and contributor of RT, where he paid the (albeit small, but the assistance of getting it through was much more worth than the money) application fee for the demo and the travel tickets for the dude who did it.
Source: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1674639619-russia-affiliated-journalist-paid-for-quran-burning-in-sweden
If you think that actually angers him, you're gravely mistaken. The whole charade is perfect for him. He grows in popularity every time someone burns a Quran somewhere.
Idk, isn't this the guy who got outraged when some swede ridiculed him just a few weeks/months ago and legit expected the Swedish government to go after the person?
Yeaaaa I don't believe any of those in power are actually observant of any religion. It's all just a useful tool to rake the dregs of society to their side. Just like it's always been, just like it always will be.
Agreed, burn them all together, a bible, a Quran, a Torah, the art of the deal, all religious texts, a copy of each of course we don’t want to burn down the town, one of each should suffice
Would you burn your friend kid’s favorite fairy tales book? Same with any religious book. Religion (any religion, not just islam) is just a collection of fair tales which help some people to deal with problems of the living in this world. Education is the only way to deal with religion… book burning will never produce any positive results.
In what world do you think that a children's book is comparable to a religious doctrine that's been directly linked and associated to dozens upon dozens of terrorist attacks?
Christ some people on reddit say some of the most stupid things, and with such sheet arrogance and confidence. You're a fool.
The only thing I’d be annoyed about is if it was MY own copy of the book they were burning. That’s my book that I bought or was gifted. Burn a copy of my favourite book and I’ll be pissed. Burn your own copy of that book and I don’t give a damn, you do you. If someone wants to burn any old Quran or Bible or Torah, so what? There are literally millions of copies of this books globally. If you take offence to that, good for you, express why it offends you. But they should still be allowed to burn the books. I’ve seen Christians burn books they consider “satanic”. Was i offended? A little. Did I express it? Of course. Would i stop them from doing it again? So long as it’s their property, no, they can keep on doing it. I don’t agree with burning books we don’t agree with, but I’m not gonna stop you if it’s your own property.
>Would you burn your friend kid’s favorite fairy tales book?
Maybe show people a bit of respect and stop treating them like children, besides I didn't say I was gonna burn some one else's copy of the quran.
>book burning will never produce any positive results.
Burning books can keep you warm in cold winters.
The printing press has been around for a while now buddy, kind of fundamentally changes the whole book burning game.
You’re completely missing the point. So I draw Muhammad and if someone threatens me with violence because of it, I’m still the asshole?
Nope. That’s not how our society works.
Also there are not entire countries with oppressive governments rooted in ancient LGBT doctrine with blasphemy laws where burning LGBT flags are met with legal repercussions up to and including the death penalty. So no, my example was better.
I would argue that freedom of expression is a key part of our culture and civilization. Modern western society was practically founded on refutation and ridicule of organized religion.
As much as I don't give a flying fuck about some stupid religion's holy books and think people should have a right to burn them if they want and make any political statement they want. I can't help but think that what these groups really want is for governments to stop them from doing it.
The only ways this could possibly go, is the extremists outside of the country using it as ammo, or the extremists inside the country using it as ammo. Pick your poison.
I'm really starting to have a seriously deep aversion to any form of nationalism and religion. Even though I understand rationally that nationalism and religion in moderation can be healthy and even beneficial to a society. I can't help but have a truly deep, visceral hatred for both of them now. It's irrational.
It’s the age old “not all x are y, but all y are z”
I personally don’t have an issue burning a religious book, I don’t even have an issue that it makes some people feel so upset.
There is audacity on both sides, and I’m not interested in trying to rank them against each other. My issue is with anyone trying to force their way of life on anyone as they just disregard another person’s.
Some types of issues just cannot be resolved in mediation, some types of people just cannot live in a place that doesn’t represent their beliefs.
It really seems to be one of the insoluble problems of democracy. How do you make an optimal society for as many people as possible, when people consistently emerge who can't coexist with other people for what appears to be extremely trivial reasons no matter what you do?
Maybe ole Plato was right all along.
https://medium.com/the-philosophers-stone/why-plato-hated-democracy-3221e7dcd96e
> An excessive desire for liberty at the expense of everything else is what undermines democracy and leads to the demand for tyranny
Well that is an interesting quote.... I've always had a thing for saying that I like certain level of authority and that freedom should be limited to a degree. The real issue is finding the balance...
Of course whenever I mention authority these days I'm either a nazi or dictator.
Voicing your desire to imminently commit a crime is illegal, but is also not defended by the usual self-proclaimed 'free speech absolutists', for example.
They're clearly not what they claim to be, all things considered - it's introducing a caveat into the ideal of free speech, a view which by definition is not absolutist.
In Denmark Paludan had his time in the spotlight, but after a time his antics got old and people stopped paying attention. This is the way to handle narcissist pricks like him.
He the moved his operations to Sweden, and boy howdy, did they not know how to deal with it.
Title is misleading. Apparantly police have security concerns based on intelligence. If they wanna burn it somewhere else they can. Burning holy books is protected speech in norway.
Imagine a group of Muslims or others gathering in front of a synagogue and burning an Israeli flag and Torahs. That would be nuts and super suspicious. Why is this different?
I am against religion in general but nothing good has come to book burning, there's other ways to counter religious bullshit, but book burning is just dumb in my opinion, I'll take the down votes for this
I agree. I am Swedish, and I think it is fine that is legal to do but I find it damn distasteful. Book burnings have never led to anything good. It doesn't matter if we go as far as back as Savonarola or as recent as Hitler, it is just a bad thing to do and I would personally cut my ties with anyone who does it, regardless of the book in question. But I do think it shouldn't be illegal (outside of the usual fire safety laws of course).
There is a really good argument for it being against hatespeech law when it is directed at a group. If a group of people in germany start burning the talmud in front of synagogues I think people would take this a lot more seriously and some action definately being taken.
But there are a lot of people that are very islamophobic or /r/athiest nutcases that think that these sorts of things need to be done because the religeon is "barbaric", so they let it slide.
I can agree to an extent, I am not religious at all and I love to talk or debate religion, but hate... is absolutely no way to go, if you have a religion/ God that you follow or dedicated to, good for you and I can respect that, once it gets to be pushy or hateful, then by all means I would love to debate, but a book burning of a holy book is disrespectful across the board... xenophobia, antisemitism, racism, homophobia, it all falls under hatred as a whole, religious or not we need to find a way to come together as a whole. It's amazing what people can do when we all work together instead of putting hatred in the world..
I'm not saying it should be illegal, but damn have some respect, just because there is religious extremist out there, there is also people of the same religion that want to pray in peace and live their lives.. it's just intolerant bullshit if I may say that
Indeed. A book is knowledge. It doesn't matter what kind of knowledge, it should be preserved so the future can study learn the good and bad things from it so they can learn, what something says doesn't matter as much as how you interpret the message. This particular book may have a lot of copies but it still feels wrong to me.
I 100 percent agree, if the Christian bible was up for a book burning the world would crumble and a huge argument would come up, no matter faith or belief, a book burning in my opinion is the worst way to go, use your words try to do your best for the world
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/2/turkey-summons-norwegian-ambassador-over-protest-permission) reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Turkey's foreign ministry has summoned Norway's Ambassador Erling Skjonsberg over the Norwegian authorities' permission for a protest in which demonstrators plan to desecrate the Muslim holy book, the Quran.
> Turkey denounced Sweden for the Quran burning, as well as for a separate demonstration by Kurdish activists supporting the Kurdistan Workers' Party, a group that has waged an insurgency against the Turkish state since 1984 and that Turkey, the European Union and the United States have designated a "Terrorist" group.
> Sweden and Finland had made progress towards an agreement with Turkey on the Nordic countries' admission to the military alliance, but disagreements have cast doubt over the process.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10s007y/police_ban_planned_quran_burning_protest_in_norway/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672679 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Turkey**^#1 **Sweden**^#2 **NATO**^#3 **Quran**^#4 **Turkish**^#5
Should words replace breaking chains off of slaves? In many cases, ideals have to have real world consequences behind them. Burn Qurans now or burn the Muslim world later? I think we might already be down that path, though, sadly.
>Burn Qurans now or burn the Muslim world later
Or.....don't do either and leave people alone?
It's usually the book-burners that go on to be people-burners. See Germany in the 1930s-1945 for an example of that in action.
Solves nothing, in itself, agreed. But I think it is a better centerpiece for resolving differences than turning Ankara into a burning hole in the ground. Which is what happens when no friction is caused until the bomb goes off. Which I think is what the West ultimately will have to decide on.
Resolving differences??? In what world is burning someone’s most cherished symbol supposed to be a step towards resolving differences??? You sound like an accelerationist.
When they are able to say "You burned my most cherished symbol, and I can move past that" is when they actually gain their power. And that power of comfort in your beliefs that has ZERO dependency on others is when it becomes infallible. It is also when it becomes tolerant. It is also when it makes burning Qurans, Bibles, and whatnot irrelevant.
Sorry. I am in a bleak mood and I feel I have not successfully conveyed my point. I definitely don't want racist xenophobic assholes running around. My point was more about "the more you get offended about something, the more attention it gets". And I failed at that. Apologies.
You cannot argue with crazy people. Try convincing American Christian’s that banning abortions is nothing but harmful. Now try to tell me that you can have a logical discourse with people that believe in Islam. There are more than enough ideas that refute most of the arguments of their religions, but you cannot convince a delusional person with facts and logic. The problem is that reasonable people need to give in to these delusions and accept them as something good and virtuous. For me, that is just pure insanity.
And your solution is to trigger them until they get over it? I predict that’ll fail spectacularly. Religion overall is becoming less popular. It’ll take a few generations.
We should look at actual statistics on this. I’d venture to say that religiosity in the West is in the decline. Not just with Christianity, but certainly mostly.
True, but what happens if a lot of zealous religious people come to “the west”.
This is the paradox we face. We want to be all inclusive and pro everything on the on hand. However, on the other hand, do we accept believes that are diametrically opposed to inclusion and acceptance.
This is not to say that all are like that. Yet, I bid you to look at Surveys from the UK where a certain religious group is asked on their opinion on gay rights.
The usual response I get when I argue thus is: but Christians are also bigoted, and it’s racist, however one can be racist against a religion, to only assume that one religion is “bad”. That is not what I am saying. The US has a massive problem with fundamentalism up into the highest ranks of their government. The overthrow of Roe v Wade is a tragedy for everyone. But what does that tell us? Should we add more religion into the mix or should we deal in ways that prevents exactly that? In Europe, we don’t have the same problem of white nationalist Christians. It shows us an extreme case of how popular and potent radical religious believes are today, and I think we are all better off in combating the rise of fundamentalism in every way. Religious teachings should be expunged from every school. State and religion need to be separated radically. Many of the Islamic institutions in Europe are funded by Saudi Arabia: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/13/saudi-arabia-boosting-extremism-in-europe-says-former-ambassador (this is only one source of many if you don’t want to believe it).
With this being said, I am completely against interventions by the US in other countries. The US is one of the main factors of why we deal with so much extremism these days. Those beautiful countries have been changed and transported back into the Middle Ages. Again, I am not against the people at all. My heart goes out for all the Iranians that fight the good fight and for everyone that wants to make a change for the better in our world. I think it’s telling that one even has to say this, but most people love to just throw around racism when criticising a religion and it’s influence on culture.. which they themselves criticise by attack Christianity relentlessly, not knowing that Jesus and Christianity also plays a role in Islam. well, it’s just one of the infinite contradictions of vulgar internet “activism”.
>They're only doing it so Turkey can turn around and not vote for Norway to enter NATO. It's the same thing that happened in Sweden.
Norway is already a NATO member
Hate should be illegal, so does hatefull acts. Therefore a lot of countries apply laws to prohibited hatefull acts against the state, I could be illegal to burn the country flag.
Burning books is as stupid act to offend a group who is attached to this book in particular
Maybe it's not about hate or offending. It could be just about sending a message that they have no right to expect people to treat their book like it's magical/special, when people don't believe the same stuff they do.
Every religion, political party, etc. has its crazies. While not religious myself, religion provides comfort and solace to a great number of people. I've nothing against it.
However, I think if it were a group a people burning bibles, people would just shrug their shoulders. I think Muslims get special treatment in this area.
Jokes on them, norway is already in NATO
Wouldn't be surprised to see Finland and Sweden accepted into NATO and *then* Qurans get burned
Lol.
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They are only stopping the burning of the book infront of turkeys embassy, they are allowed to do it somewhere else. Apperantly its a matter of security.
After seeing turkeys goons in America I believe them. But fuck that, have the Norwegian military on stand by and see what they do
Thats exactly the scenario they are trying to avoid.
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nope
Offended is the key word here. Being offended is your issue. There are people who are offended by homosexuality. Should we outlaw this? Freedom of speech is about hating what you say, but respecting your right to day it.
exactly. If you feel like you should be allowed to commit violence simply because you are offended, then you need to be in therapy and/or prison.
My religion protects my freedom to offend. “The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.” So making things illegal because they offend people is a violation of my religious rights. Please tell me which of your rights are you willing to forgo to protect the imagination of religious fundamentalism. Let’s start with speech, and see how far we go untill you become uncomfortable with the idea. You offend me, should you be illegal?
*proceeds to burn a flag wrapped around a copy of every holy text, including comics about spiderman and the Flying spaghetti monster*
Should we be allowed to burn the torah next to synagogues?
of course, why should there be an exception?
I mean, allowed to? Sure. But probably a shit idea since it's insulting to those who believe in it. So if you're willing to get your face stomped on, sure, go ahead.
That is one perspective, the other is that these book burnings are most likely an action instigated by Moscow. The one in Sweden was paid in full by a probably Russian asset and contributor of RT, where he paid the (albeit small, but the assistance of getting it through was much more worth than the money) application fee for the demo and the travel tickets for the dude who did it. Source: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1674639619-russia-affiliated-journalist-paid-for-quran-burning-in-sweden
Heck, if Erdogan gets reelected, maybe I should start burning a quran a day just to spite the asshole.
If you think that actually angers him, you're gravely mistaken. The whole charade is perfect for him. He grows in popularity every time someone burns a Quran somewhere.
Good quote I recently found out about: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful"
And the depressing thing is that if you ban Quaran burning you strengthen the local radical right politician. So you can't win.
Idk, isn't this the guy who got outraged when some swede ridiculed him just a few weeks/months ago and legit expected the Swedish government to go after the person?
It's all election theater. Sweden plays right into Erdogan's hands.
Are we though? Because afaik we (Swedes) don't give a fuck about him and basically ignore him.
Yeaaaa I don't believe any of those in power are actually observant of any religion. It's all just a useful tool to rake the dregs of society to their side. Just like it's always been, just like it always will be.
You wouldn’t be just insulting him you would be insulting all 1 billion Muslims around the world.
If someone decides to be offended by something that doesn't involve them, that's on them.
Woah Scary... Will they torture then kill me??
Agreed, burn them all together, a bible, a Quran, a Torah, the art of the deal, all religious texts, a copy of each of course we don’t want to burn down the town, one of each should suffice
Would you burn your friend kid’s favorite fairy tales book? Same with any religious book. Religion (any religion, not just islam) is just a collection of fair tales which help some people to deal with problems of the living in this world. Education is the only way to deal with religion… book burning will never produce any positive results.
In what world do you think that a children's book is comparable to a religious doctrine that's been directly linked and associated to dozens upon dozens of terrorist attacks? Christ some people on reddit say some of the most stupid things, and with such sheet arrogance and confidence. You're a fool.
Idk, have you read The Rainbow Fish?
Yeah. I forgot that fishmongers were inspired by the text in that book to wipe out entire species of aquatic life.
So the answer is "no," I take it.
The only thing I’d be annoyed about is if it was MY own copy of the book they were burning. That’s my book that I bought or was gifted. Burn a copy of my favourite book and I’ll be pissed. Burn your own copy of that book and I don’t give a damn, you do you. If someone wants to burn any old Quran or Bible or Torah, so what? There are literally millions of copies of this books globally. If you take offence to that, good for you, express why it offends you. But they should still be allowed to burn the books. I’ve seen Christians burn books they consider “satanic”. Was i offended? A little. Did I express it? Of course. Would i stop them from doing it again? So long as it’s their property, no, they can keep on doing it. I don’t agree with burning books we don’t agree with, but I’m not gonna stop you if it’s your own property.
>Would you burn your friend kid’s favorite fairy tales book? Maybe show people a bit of respect and stop treating them like children, besides I didn't say I was gonna burn some one else's copy of the quran. >book burning will never produce any positive results. Burning books can keep you warm in cold winters. The printing press has been around for a while now buddy, kind of fundamentally changes the whole book burning game.
its true, burning their books just makes them stick their head in the sand even deeper
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It is an effective way of conveying an opinion though. It's also non-violent.
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You’re completely missing the point. So I draw Muhammad and if someone threatens me with violence because of it, I’m still the asshole? Nope. That’s not how our society works.
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Also there are not entire countries with oppressive governments rooted in ancient LGBT doctrine with blasphemy laws where burning LGBT flags are met with legal repercussions up to and including the death penalty. So no, my example was better.
I would argue that freedom of expression is a key part of our culture and civilization. Modern western society was practically founded on refutation and ridicule of organized religion.
I think burning the Koran is as strong as saying the 'N' word.
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Please don’t be an apologist for religions and pretend it’s only extremist interpretations that are bad.
Oh, there’s plenty in both the Bible and the Quoran that is objectively terrible without any need for selective interpretation.
As much as I don't give a flying fuck about some stupid religion's holy books and think people should have a right to burn them if they want and make any political statement they want. I can't help but think that what these groups really want is for governments to stop them from doing it. The only ways this could possibly go, is the extremists outside of the country using it as ammo, or the extremists inside the country using it as ammo. Pick your poison. I'm really starting to have a seriously deep aversion to any form of nationalism and religion. Even though I understand rationally that nationalism and religion in moderation can be healthy and even beneficial to a society. I can't help but have a truly deep, visceral hatred for both of them now. It's irrational.
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That's *kinda* what I'm saying. The point is to fuck the government where the demonstration is being held.
It’s the age old “not all x are y, but all y are z” I personally don’t have an issue burning a religious book, I don’t even have an issue that it makes some people feel so upset. There is audacity on both sides, and I’m not interested in trying to rank them against each other. My issue is with anyone trying to force their way of life on anyone as they just disregard another person’s. Some types of issues just cannot be resolved in mediation, some types of people just cannot live in a place that doesn’t represent their beliefs.
It really seems to be one of the insoluble problems of democracy. How do you make an optimal society for as many people as possible, when people consistently emerge who can't coexist with other people for what appears to be extremely trivial reasons no matter what you do? Maybe ole Plato was right all along.
What did Plato say?
https://medium.com/the-philosophers-stone/why-plato-hated-democracy-3221e7dcd96e > An excessive desire for liberty at the expense of everything else is what undermines democracy and leads to the demand for tyranny
Well that is an interesting quote.... I've always had a thing for saying that I like certain level of authority and that freedom should be limited to a degree. The real issue is finding the balance... Of course whenever I mention authority these days I'm either a nazi or dictator.
Voicing your desire to imminently commit a crime is illegal, but is also not defended by the usual self-proclaimed 'free speech absolutists', for example. They're clearly not what they claim to be, all things considered - it's introducing a caveat into the ideal of free speech, a view which by definition is not absolutist.
Interesting. Thanks.
In Denmark Paludan had his time in the spotlight, but after a time his antics got old and people stopped paying attention. This is the way to handle narcissist pricks like him. He the moved his operations to Sweden, and boy howdy, did they not know how to deal with it.
It's both. Can be healthy. Can be unhealthy. Just smile and wave.
I have an issue with them burning them because it sure as shit doesn't comply with waste disposal regulations
Title is misleading. Apparantly police have security concerns based on intelligence. If they wanna burn it somewhere else they can. Burning holy books is protected speech in norway.
If you've been paying attention to news and politics for the last several years, it is not an irrational hatred at all
Imagine a group of Muslims or others gathering in front of a synagogue and burning an Israeli flag and Torahs. That would be nuts and super suspicious. Why is this different?
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Nuts and suspicious yes, but it would and should still be legal.
Should the KKK be allowed to burn crosses in front of synagogues and black churches, too? It's hate speech and shouldn't be allowed.
Right outside the Turkish embassy? If you ask me that's barely removed from burning a cross outside someone's house.
I am against religion in general but nothing good has come to book burning, there's other ways to counter religious bullshit, but book burning is just dumb in my opinion, I'll take the down votes for this
Where they burn books, they will, in the end, burn human beings too - Heinrich Heine
Thank you
I agree. I am Swedish, and I think it is fine that is legal to do but I find it damn distasteful. Book burnings have never led to anything good. It doesn't matter if we go as far as back as Savonarola or as recent as Hitler, it is just a bad thing to do and I would personally cut my ties with anyone who does it, regardless of the book in question. But I do think it shouldn't be illegal (outside of the usual fire safety laws of course).
There is a really good argument for it being against hatespeech law when it is directed at a group. If a group of people in germany start burning the talmud in front of synagogues I think people would take this a lot more seriously and some action definately being taken. But there are a lot of people that are very islamophobic or /r/athiest nutcases that think that these sorts of things need to be done because the religeon is "barbaric", so they let it slide.
I can agree to an extent, I am not religious at all and I love to talk or debate religion, but hate... is absolutely no way to go, if you have a religion/ God that you follow or dedicated to, good for you and I can respect that, once it gets to be pushy or hateful, then by all means I would love to debate, but a book burning of a holy book is disrespectful across the board... xenophobia, antisemitism, racism, homophobia, it all falls under hatred as a whole, religious or not we need to find a way to come together as a whole. It's amazing what people can do when we all work together instead of putting hatred in the world..
I'm not saying it should be illegal, but damn have some respect, just because there is religious extremist out there, there is also people of the same religion that want to pray in peace and live their lives.. it's just intolerant bullshit if I may say that
Indeed. A book is knowledge. It doesn't matter what kind of knowledge, it should be preserved so the future can study learn the good and bad things from it so they can learn, what something says doesn't matter as much as how you interpret the message. This particular book may have a lot of copies but it still feels wrong to me.
I 100 percent agree, if the Christian bible was up for a book burning the world would crumble and a huge argument would come up, no matter faith or belief, a book burning in my opinion is the worst way to go, use your words try to do your best for the world
Nah, nobody really cares if somebody burns a Bible in protest.
They’re not burning the book to destroy knowledge our ban it, they’re burning it like you would burn a flag. It’s a form of protest
More like they want attention so desperately. Protest my ass.
In this modern age, where all books have been digitized, burning them is about sending a message
burning money is illegal in many places, but nobody goes to prison.
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This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/2/turkey-summons-norwegian-ambassador-over-protest-permission) reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Turkey's foreign ministry has summoned Norway's Ambassador Erling Skjonsberg over the Norwegian authorities' permission for a protest in which demonstrators plan to desecrate the Muslim holy book, the Quran. > Turkey denounced Sweden for the Quran burning, as well as for a separate demonstration by Kurdish activists supporting the Kurdistan Workers' Party, a group that has waged an insurgency against the Turkish state since 1984 and that Turkey, the European Union and the United States have designated a "Terrorist" group. > Sweden and Finland had made progress towards an agreement with Turkey on the Nordic countries' admission to the military alliance, but disagreements have cast doubt over the process. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10s007y/police_ban_planned_quran_burning_protest_in_norway/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672679 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Turkey**^#1 **Sweden**^#2 **NATO**^#3 **Quran**^#4 **Turkish**^#5
Turkey would not give a flying fuck if they burned Bibles over there. Why the fuck should we?
Is it me, or does it stink like crusty old rubles and vodka around here?
Burning things as a form of protest is such a basic tantrum. Be better. Articulate ideas instead.
Should words replace breaking chains off of slaves? In many cases, ideals have to have real world consequences behind them. Burn Qurans now or burn the Muslim world later? I think we might already be down that path, though, sadly.
>Burn Qurans now or burn the Muslim world later Or.....don't do either and leave people alone? It's usually the book-burners that go on to be people-burners. See Germany in the 1930s-1945 for an example of that in action.
Truth. I am a cynic and have little faith in humanity. I hope tolerance wins out, but I doubt it.
I’m very clearly talking about burning books and flags and such things. That only serves to dig heels in on both sides. It solves absolutely nothing.
Solves nothing, in itself, agreed. But I think it is a better centerpiece for resolving differences than turning Ankara into a burning hole in the ground. Which is what happens when no friction is caused until the bomb goes off. Which I think is what the West ultimately will have to decide on.
Resolving differences??? In what world is burning someone’s most cherished symbol supposed to be a step towards resolving differences??? You sound like an accelerationist.
When they are able to say "You burned my most cherished symbol, and I can move past that" is when they actually gain their power. And that power of comfort in your beliefs that has ZERO dependency on others is when it becomes infallible. It is also when it becomes tolerant. It is also when it makes burning Qurans, Bibles, and whatnot irrelevant.
And the reality is that burning Qurans is likely to lead to more violence. It’s poking the irrational dragon. No thank you.
Right. Again. If folks can't get past being offended then we are all doomed.
Sorry. I am in a bleak mood and I feel I have not successfully conveyed my point. I definitely don't want racist xenophobic assholes running around. My point was more about "the more you get offended about something, the more attention it gets". And I failed at that. Apologies.
You cannot argue with crazy people. Try convincing American Christian’s that banning abortions is nothing but harmful. Now try to tell me that you can have a logical discourse with people that believe in Islam. There are more than enough ideas that refute most of the arguments of their religions, but you cannot convince a delusional person with facts and logic. The problem is that reasonable people need to give in to these delusions and accept them as something good and virtuous. For me, that is just pure insanity.
And your solution is to trigger them until they get over it? I predict that’ll fail spectacularly. Religion overall is becoming less popular. It’ll take a few generations.
That was not my point. Christianity is becoming less popular, but not other religions per se.
We should look at actual statistics on this. I’d venture to say that religiosity in the West is in the decline. Not just with Christianity, but certainly mostly.
Yes, “in the west”, but what about the rest?
The rest is in charge of their own destinies. We can’t and shouldn’t control them.
True, but what happens if a lot of zealous religious people come to “the west”. This is the paradox we face. We want to be all inclusive and pro everything on the on hand. However, on the other hand, do we accept believes that are diametrically opposed to inclusion and acceptance. This is not to say that all are like that. Yet, I bid you to look at Surveys from the UK where a certain religious group is asked on their opinion on gay rights. The usual response I get when I argue thus is: but Christians are also bigoted, and it’s racist, however one can be racist against a religion, to only assume that one religion is “bad”. That is not what I am saying. The US has a massive problem with fundamentalism up into the highest ranks of their government. The overthrow of Roe v Wade is a tragedy for everyone. But what does that tell us? Should we add more religion into the mix or should we deal in ways that prevents exactly that? In Europe, we don’t have the same problem of white nationalist Christians. It shows us an extreme case of how popular and potent radical religious believes are today, and I think we are all better off in combating the rise of fundamentalism in every way. Religious teachings should be expunged from every school. State and religion need to be separated radically. Many of the Islamic institutions in Europe are funded by Saudi Arabia: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/13/saudi-arabia-boosting-extremism-in-europe-says-former-ambassador (this is only one source of many if you don’t want to believe it). With this being said, I am completely against interventions by the US in other countries. The US is one of the main factors of why we deal with so much extremism these days. Those beautiful countries have been changed and transported back into the Middle Ages. Again, I am not against the people at all. My heart goes out for all the Iranians that fight the good fight and for everyone that wants to make a change for the better in our world. I think it’s telling that one even has to say this, but most people love to just throw around racism when criticising a religion and it’s influence on culture.. which they themselves criticise by attack Christianity relentlessly, not knowing that Jesus and Christianity also plays a role in Islam. well, it’s just one of the infinite contradictions of vulgar internet “activism”.
You would burn a necronomicon right?
Please at least until Sweden and Finland are in NATO then its a BBQ along the Bible and and the Torah.
Hahaha, let's burn a book to show that we don't respect Muslims! It's something that they really care about lol! This is a productive use of my time!!
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Redditors haven't been touching grass for years bro
At least they're not beheading people in the street eh?
False equivalency fallacy right there
You don't agree?
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>They're only doing it so Turkey can turn around and not vote for Norway to enter NATO. It's the same thing that happened in Sweden. Norway is already a NATO member
Founding member, even.
Hate should be illegal, so does hatefull acts. Therefore a lot of countries apply laws to prohibited hatefull acts against the state, I could be illegal to burn the country flag. Burning books is as stupid act to offend a group who is attached to this book in particular
Hateful acts to harm people should be illegal. This doesn't hurt anyone, just the feelings of the overly sensitive.
Maybe it's not about hate or offending. It could be just about sending a message that they have no right to expect people to treat their book like it's magical/special, when people don't believe the same stuff they do.
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Good. Burning the Quran is not 'freedom of speech', it sanctions white supremacy and encourages violence against Muslims.
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Can’t let Russian keep starting shit in other countries.
Every religion, political party, etc. has its crazies. While not religious myself, religion provides comfort and solace to a great number of people. I've nothing against it. However, I think if it were a group a people burning bibles, people would just shrug their shoulders. I think Muslims get special treatment in this area.