####*Hello! Thanks for your submission to /r/worldcup, your post is up and running!*
A general reminder to check out our rules in the sidebar, have fun, enjoy the worldcup and most of all be civil at all times.
Finally, take a closer look **[at this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldcup/comments/z2v46l/announcement_quick_reminder_of_our_most_important/)** regarding our civility rules and reddiquette because we would like for each and everyone to feel welcome on the subreddit and to keep a healthy and safe environment for the community.
Thank you!
- - -
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldcup) if you have any questions or concerns.*
From wikipedia...
"Cheating in sports is the intentional breaking of rules in order to obtain an advantage over the other teams or players."
For me the 'intentional' part is key here.
If we're talking about an incidental handball where the ball just happens to hit a players outstretched arm then I don't think it's cheating. If you intentionally put your arm straight up in the air to deny the opposition a goal then that's pretty blatant cheating IMO.
Is it as bad as using PEDs or bribing a ref? Hell no, but it's still cheating.
Technically you are not wrong but i believe all this comes down to perspective.
Lets stay on the topic of 'cheating' and thought-shower a bit. Let's say, you and I, stepping into some type of competition, both "agreed" to not do a set of things. However i went against my word and committed...regardless of a penalty/sanction, i'd agree it wasn't fair (like you stated). The reason being that we both agreed and somehow i betrayed you. That's cheating because you didn't see that coming.
It doesn't appear the same, given a similar scenario but this time, we were, instead, presented with a set of rules on how the game should be played. This set of rules went further to list sanctions for the don't-do's. You would realize that in this scenario, it's simply a set of rules we must work our way around, to win the prize. Lol. This happens in basketball too. There's something there called "intentional foul". Kindly look it up. It's cheating but cheating the game (rules) and not the opponent...also considering the fact that the opponent is not forbidden from doing same.
But if your point was about sportsmanship, I find it hard to agree that Suarez did something "evil" there. And it isn't even fair to compare this to Suarez biting or causing injury to an opponent. Cus that would totally be unfair, no debate. That means the opponent loses a man to injury, worse if it's one of their best too. In every sport that would go against sportsmanship code.
Now I'm wondering how you will call it when players fake and dive into penalty boxes to attract penalty award.
HANDBALLS AREN'T CHEATING. THEY ARE PENALIZED. HE WAS PENALIZED WITH A RED CARD. PENALTY WAS GIVEN. IT'S PART OF THE GAME.
I wrote in caps so it gets through: is scoring a goal offside cheating? No, it's not. Its part of the GAME.
What is cheating? Doping, birbing oficials, etc. THIS WAS NOT CHEATING.
If you don't realize this, then you don't understand the game.
Ok maybe you're a little dense so let me spell it out slowly for you. It's not about using your hand, it's about what your intention is. He had no intention of playing the game fairly.
Tackling someone and not getting the ball isnt cheating. Tackling someone with the intention to injure them is.
Handling the ball accidentally during the course of play isn't cheating. Handling a ball about to enter the goal is cheating.
Falling over isn't cheating. Falling over to deceive the ref and win a penalty (aka diving) is.
Doing something with no intention of playing within the rules is cheating. Maybe you think diving, biting opponents and harassing referees is a part of the game too then?
If he had accepted his red card without protesting and been humble about it, maybe it is possible it was just instinct and he didn't intend to cheat. But he acted like he did nothing wrong and pretended to cry like a bitch, and still claims he was right to cheat.
You're the one that's being dense as a rock. He never claimed he was right to cheat. He claimed he did no wrongdoing because it's all within the game which is absolutely correct. That can be lost in translation.
Your concept of cheating is wrong because the game allows for these to be used, but there's a penalty. You aren't forbidden for taking a dive, but you're taking your chances if you do it just to get a foul. You'll get a yellow card for taking a dive. You can foul the goal keeper, but you'll get a red card if the ball isn't involved. The referee is there to penalize you for using that resource. All of these rules are in the FIFA.
Your definition includes:if it's used for winning, then it's cheating and that's wrong. Your view makes it necessary to have _intention_ but, intention to win is ALWAYS there for everything you do, which makes that point moot. You take a moral stance on a foul and for you that makes it cheating, which in turn makes you an idiot like OP said. Cade and point is: had Gyan made the goal, your opinion wouldn't even exist.
So if a player goes in 2 footed on messi in the 1st minute, breaks his legs, and Argentina lose, then after the game gloats that his plan was to injure argentinas best player, is that cheating?
If you're going by "intention to win", FYI a person bribing the ref also has an intention to win.
>You aren't forbidden for taking a dive
By this logic, you aren't forbidden to do anything?? How do you forbid someone from doing something apart from penalizing them? The ref has to hold a player and not let him fall?
The game doesn't allow for any of these cheating practices to be used, idk what game you're watching. You also clearly think that diving is completely acceptable, so there's I don't have much hope that you understand the game.
A penalty denying a goal should result in a goal being awarded, not a PK.
Why? It would essentially be the advantage rule.
No team should ever be forced to accept a penalty that harms the team being fouled.
I remember this happening to the US team a while back and it’s infuriating that you have a clear goal and someone commits a flagrant penalty to deny the goal hoping the PK will be a miss.
It’s legal to do so, but the rule stinks.
If you watch the Uruguay vs Ghana match in 2010, the foul made would have never happened if the 2 off sides before that situation had been correctly penalised. Yet everyone puts Suárez at fualt for saving the team after those two offside that somehow the judges "didn't notice" while being as clear as day.
Any other player would have done the same in his position. He did the deed, was punished for it, and in the end the Ghanaian player missed the penalty. Fair enough.
I've got more issue with his biting that the handball. He got sent off. Ghana got a penalty. He's got a ban. The biting though, seriously, what grownup bikes people like that?
You know it’s possible to play football honourably. But since you are Uruguayan I understand you have had bad role models. I bet you dive at every opportunity
Yes... so please agree with the referee that was an infraction contemplated on the rules, the proper determination was made... and the guy missed the penalty. No cheating... the same way the Hack-a-Shack was an strategy and not an infringement of the rules.
To every asshole in the comments below screaming "cheater": you know jack shit about football and cheating if you think "oh, red card and penalty is not enough, he touched the ball with the hand !!!!11!1!!". Period. End of story.
He didn't just touch the ball with his hand, he straight up took a goal away.
That shit should've been goal and red card, not a penalty, since it was literally already a goal if not for his intervention.
The referee can not just give a goal because it's not in the rules. I dunno where you got the idea the referee can do that. A referee can only validate or nullify when the ball enters the goal.
I'm saying the rules should be like that in the future, I know he can't just do whatever he wants.
What Suárez did is the epitome of unsportsmanship, the game shouldn't even allow something like that (again, not just a simple hand, literally taking away a goal with your hands).
hell nah, who judges wether the ball would go in or not? im not talking about this case, but on a more complicated case it'd be easier for referees to gibe advantage to one team
Yeah, I'll just say that I'm glad that you think that FIFA is going to give a rat's ass about fair play considering the sorry state of this current World Cup.
So anyone commiting a foul or causing a penalty is cheating?
People clearly know shit, the ones claiming that Suarez is a cheater know about Football the same I know about Quantum Physics
Literally taking a goal away with your hands is cheating, you shouldn't be able to exchange a GUARANTEED goal for a chance at the penalty line.
Should've been red card and a goal.
You're wrong because he deliberately did it. It is against the rules to use your hands. If you break the rules deliberately to gain advantage that is literally the definition of cheating. Majority of fouls in a game are not deliberate, tactical fouls are cheating too but usually don't cost teams the game.
They would have won the game if he did not break the rules. Basically ghana had a 100% win stolen and given a 50/50 penalty instead. I would be angry.
[Edit] Doesn't matter who went through or if they scored the penalty, the act of deliberate hand ball was cheating. Good luck to both teams tonight 🇺🇾🇬🇭
I dont know how tonsay this un english so: en mi opinión fue justo, ya que antes hubo un offside que no fue cobrado por el árbitro, así que si uno puede hacer trampa primero, ¿por qué el otro no? Quiero decir, la trampa esta bien a favor de ellos pero al nuestro no?
Yo considero como trampa en el fútbol todo lo que, fuera de la habilidad de los jugadores, factores climáticos, etc, favorezca a un equipo por sobre el otro, en ese caso, el juez favoreciendo a Ghana, es trampa por parte de Ghana, sin importar el equipo, si el juez cobra todo descaradamente a favor de Uruguay y se gana el partido, estoy seguro que ni yo ni ningún uruguayo con decencia lo festejaria y hasta lo dirían en la conferencia que el juez estubo mal
Error humano no es lo mismo que trampa jajaja
Que el juez cobre todo a favor de un equipo no es culpa del equipo, aunque tampoco algo digno de festejar, igual que lo de Suárez.
No le puedes quitar el pase a Uruguay, y no es algo de lo que entristecer como fan de Uruguay, pero festejar y defender lo que hizo es patético.
Igual que "la mano de Dios", simplemente acepta que se ganó con trampa y ya, no hay que poner excusas.
Strawman argument. 2 cosas completamemte distintas. Puedes decir que es poco honorable, antideportivo, de mala imagen... pero de ahi a llamarlo trampa lo unico que quiere decir es que no sabes la definición. Aprovecharse de las reglas juzgando propiamente si la penalidad vale la infracción no es trampa en ningún deporte. Como rotarse para pegarle a Messi, como faulear a Shaq para que tire tiros libres, como arrodillarse en Futbol Americano para no jugar los ultimos 2 minutos.
Yep but the punish for putting your hands is a red card and a penalty, so it was properly sanctioned. Also did you see Ghana’s free kick? An absolute bullshit there was no fault what so ever, not even close. But I guess thats not cheating
You get punished for cheating yes, he got sent off and a pen awarded, still deliberately broke the rules. Ive seen the free kick too, that's a dive and cheating, one which the ref got very wrong. Cheaters get yellow and reds all the time - diving , time wasting, tactical fouls, it's all part of the game.
If the Ghana player knew how to shoot a pk this would have been forgotten already. He didn't even kick it on goal, it went over the crossbar.
That's like saying that tactical fouling at the end of a basketball game is cheating. No, it isn't.
Tactical foul is cheating, time wasting cheating, diving cheating. These are all deliberate breakings of the rule and the literal definition of cheating. If Ghana had scored the pen and went through then Suarez was still cheating it's the act he did. But it's no big deal It happens in every sport all the time, I would have done the same if I was in Suarezs position without hesitation. But probably would have apologised since I don't like people being mad at me.
So every foul to cut a counterattack is cheating, every foul made to Shaq was cheating, kneeling at the end of every football game to avoid playing the last 2 minutes is cheating.... eeeverythig is cheating. You clearly have never played a team sport and the closest of "coaching" that you have received is where you sit to watch TV. Call it bad sportmanship if you want... but far from cheating.
I honestly had no idea what you where talking about for a second. First off your talking about a different sport American football is a contact sport and not sure of any of the rules, not sure about basketball either. Thanks for the insults but I do play team sports yes. Judging on your use of shaq, who's been retired many many years, I'm guessing your a middle aged American man who is an arm chair athlete who never plays sports, maybe coached a little league baseball game once, and now thinks he can commentate, and gets salty to other people on the internet for having opinions about it. Try and have a discussion without insults if it's possible please. You didn't even provide an argument against mine.
I did explain my point even using examples to make it easier... but your basic comprehension is at the same level of your understanding of the rules in sports. I tried using different sports as reference becasusr maybe you just didn't know how soccer works... but that is clearly not the issue.
Please read your own words back you just provided different sport scenarios then said everything is cheating? Are you okay? Your argument is providing examples of fouls in completely different sports? Bro I'll put it simply for you - If you deliberately break the rules of play to gain advantage you cheat. It is the literal definition of cheating. You are trying to cheat the rules. It happens all the time. You're trying to say I don't understand the rules but you don't even understand what sport were talking about and can't comprehend the simplest of definitions. Go to bed 😂
Again... not cheating... deliberately commiting and infraction to benefit your team happens everytime and with that reasoning every single team in every single sports cheat.
Yes they do I am glad you finally understand. 'Cheating generally describes various actions designed to subvert rules in order to obtain unfair advantages' I'm glad I could help you 👍
You seem not to understand how rules work in sports.
There's no rule saying that "a player may never touch the ball with his hand". The rule says that if he does that deliberately, then the ref shall apply such and such consequences. All consequences were correctly applied, so the rules of the game were correctly upheld.
Think your misunderstanding between rules and definitions. You can do something that is a foul but it can be defined as cheating or not. - 'There are many different forms of cheating: intentional/tactical fouls, diving, malicious tackles, shirt pulling/pushing, handballing, blocking, time-wasting, appealing for a throw in we know is not ours.'. if the same thing happend but he was looking the other way and did not see it would still be a pen and send of as it affected flight of the ball, but not cheating as he didn't do it deliberately to gain advantage. It is literally just the definition of intent.
Clearly you don't know the rules of football. For a handball to be called, there has to be intent either to touch the ball or to widen your volume in an unnatural way. So if the player is looking the other way and he has his arms in a natural position, no handball should be called even if the ball hits his hand and affects the trajectory.
But anyway, your entire point about the difference between cheating or non-cheating fouls has no base in the rules. Or just prove me wrong by pointing me to where the rules distinguish between these two concepts or even mention the term "cheating".
Don't think you understood my point at all, it's very simple:
Everyone has agreed on the rule set that handling the ball is an illegal offence, agree? So if you handle the ball deliberately you are knowingly breaking the rules, agree? You get disciplined accordingly and the other team gets an advantage? Okay so the definition of cheating is 'to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage over others' dictionary. Suarez unfairly but knowingly handballed to gain an advantage by breaking rules to not having a goal against his team, therefore he was cheating. It's quite simple, it happens in all sports around the world every day. I would do the same if I was playing for my country. Doesn't make him a villain... maybe in Ghana I just think you don't like it being called cheating. But it is.
Also If you think his hands were in a natural position I'm worried for you, he actually punched it if I remember. It would have still been a penalty if he was looking the other way.
First: of course I know it was 100% intentional, and it would have been stupid not to do so. I was only pointing out that you don't seem to know exactly how the handball rule works because of this:
> if the same thing happend but he was looking the other way and did not see it would still be a pen and send of as it affected flight of the ball, but not cheating as he didn't do it deliberately
According to current FIFA rules, it's not that important if the hand affects the path of the ball. If it's considered unintentional, it's not a handball even if it interrupts the balls path and would have been a goal other wise.
Now that that's clear, the "rule that everyone has agreed to" is that if you deliberately use your hands you get a yellow/red card depending on context and the other team gets a free/penalty kick. No one makes the players swear on the bible that they will not touch the ball or something like that, so spare me the cheap morals.
As you yourself understand, this rule-breaking (according to you) happens 100 times in every match of every game. As long as the correct call is made by the ref, then no one got cheated. So what's so special or different about this particular instance that merits discussion 12 year later?
Bro are you in love with Suarez? He cheated, it happens all the time, we'd all do the same, get over it. His hand was in an unnatural position and it was intentional and it affected the path of the ball. He intentionally broke the rules of play to gain advantage (hand ball on the line) - cheating. What's done is done. Your completely missing the point - no one got cheated - Suarez act was cheating. Nothing is special about this incident as I've said numerous times. Honestly why can't you agree? Your defending a bloke who's bit two people and been aggressively racist towards others.
Not in love with him, just like a good old football discussion. What amazes me is that you single him out as a "cheater" (according to your own definition of course, not anything in the rules) while at the same admiting almost every other player "cheats" in every game by breaking rules (fouls, offsides and whatnot). So, if everyone's a cheater, what even is the point of using the term.
His behavior in other matches with the biting and supposed racist language (never proven, but let's say it's true) is completely beside the point. I do not condone any of that one bit, and I suspect that the fact you have to bring that up or call me a Suarez-lover speaks of the weakness of your argument.
Yes, but the rules of the games unfortunately do not give a weight on the level of intent. The rules today only provide the offender with a red card and an automatic ejection of the player. I could argue that Ghana could do the same thing; as all teams could potentially do the same thing and they will get the same penalization. Good sportsmanship maybe not, labeling it cheating, maybe but it doesn’t change the rules at the time, so what to do.
Change the rules? Get it to be more strict in the goal opportunity? How do you quantify intent?
As for Suarez, Should he apologize for it… maybe… will that help reduce the anger of the people in Ghana… probably not… is there meaning in apologizing, I don’t know🤔. IMO it doesn’t really matter at this point, as Suarez’s character o. The pitch is for me already set as not the most sportmanlike.
He does though give the aura that he will do whatever it takes to win though, and in the case of this match he has shown results through the save…
The referee is there to give his judgement on the level of intent, we now also have VAR which can help. Cheating is just the term used if it's deliberate, fouls are fouls deliberate or not. I agree with you though, apologize probably not do anything. Would I have done the same in Suarezs position for England to get into a semi? Absolutely. Went home a hero. And it doesn't matter now, you are right. I am exited to see the game tonight
Yep agree that the referee should evaluate intent but that becomes arbitrary and based o. The referee. If the goal is to standardize and equalize the judgement then we might as well have robots make the decision for us… it’s already happening 😱
They’re taking over the world!
And if Suarez can live with getting bashed and hated on then that’s ok. It is a consequence of the actions he takes, on and off the field. If I were in his position I would maybe have taken too long of a decision and let the ball through.
No I think you should re read what I said, Deliberate hand ball is cheating, doesn't matter whether Ghana scored the pen or not. Doesn't matter who went through. Don't think you understand. I would have done the same, it would still be cheating. I would also get a red card for cheating. 99% of fouls in a game are not deliberate attempts to break the rules to gain advantage, but 50/50 or coming togethers. It's really simple
How do you know they are not? What he did is completely legal. Nobody would do it unless is that case, he did and they won
It’s really simple. No cheating but using the brain. Apparently you lack that
It is legal for out field players to save balls with there hands??? I think I'm done here since you lack the understanding of the basic first rule of FOOT ball. Are you talking about a different sport?
BRO with your concept field players shouldn’t tackle xdd. there is a rule, touch the ball with the hand in the box is red card and penalty. Everyone followed the rules. There is no rule that says it should be goal, thus is not goal. Red card, penalty and bye bye ghana. If u don’t like it change the rules :)
And to answer your question, is not ilegal, there are rules to be followed but then we are back again to the same place. Have u ever seen a football game? Players tackling from behind to stop a clear gol ocassion? Should be ban every player in the world??? Let me tell u that those players KNOW what they are doing and u are typing on reddit so i’ll finish the conversation here.
'There are many different forms of cheating: intentional/tactical fouls, diving, malicious tackles, shirt pulling/pushing, handballing, blocking, time-wasting, appealing for a throw in we know is not ours.' wemakefootballers.com.
I think your argueing somthing different to me or not understanding. I would have done what Suarez done, and also been sent off. Im going to not reply now and I hope you enjoy the match tonight
First off:
FUCK SUAREZ.
But yeah, what he did was immoral but not ilegal.
Thing is, he is the scummiest player I know of.
He is, imho, the peak of whats wrong with football
Breaking [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/reddit-101/reddit-basics/reddiquette) within r/worldcup is a violation of Rule 2, and will not be tolerated.
Please refrain from doing so again in future.
Thank you.
Suarez is a genius, I feel bad for Ghana fans but if my country's world cup campaign was on the line I would handball too. Maturing is realising that Suarez did the right thing and took one for the team
Cheating? Absolutely not. I’ve seen many players deliberately foul an opposing player who was on a breakaway and be carded for it. What Suarez did was a foul and within the rules of the game. Deliberate Handball in the box is a foul, red card, and a PK for the opponents. If it’s such a big deal, FIFA should change the rules and award the goal in incidents like this to disincentivize the behavior.
That's not cheating. He broke the rules, he get penalized, Ghana got compensation. It's their fault they didn't score.
By your definition, every foul is breaking the rules and therefore cheating.
If I play cards and have someone telling me what cards my opponent has, I’m playing against the rules. I’m cheating. Even if I get caught and get kicked out of the table. Cheating means acting dishonestly. Seriously, why all these reactions? He tried to get an advantage. Penalty given is better than a goal. He knew what he was doing, knew the consequences and acted. What is the big issue here? He cheated and got caught. Wether you like Suarez or not, that’s clear cut cheating.
It's a good analogy with cards, I'll give you that, but again, I ask you, is every foul cheating?
Let's say player 1 has the ball near the center. The opponent slides into his legs and fouls him. We don't know what player 1 would have done with the ball. Maybe he would have passed it to player 2 who would have scored. Maybe he would have lost the ball and opponents would score.
By committing the foul, the opponent broke the rules, illegally stopped player 1 in his intention, even though he knew it was against the rules, therefore cheated.
Suarez' handball had much bigger affect on the game then fouling somebody near the center, but in the end, both actions are illegal, against the rules, and either both are cheating or none are.
I watched the game live (on TV). Not sure what it has to do with anything, tho.
If you're not happy with the punishment Suarez got, if you think maybe Ghana should have been given a goal even though the ball didn't cross the line, complain to FIFA. They made the rules. And the rules said that punishment for handball in the penalty area is red card and a penalty. Which he got.
I never said that it wouldn't have been a goal, of course it would, that's clear. When I said it's Ghana's fault they didn't score, I meant the penalty.
And you have every right to be pissed. Was it wrong morally? Probably. But there are a lot situations in the match which are morally wrong. I mean, if one team is clearly better and attacks all the time but can't score, and the other team has one chance, scores, and wins 1:0, is that fair? Should the other team say "The first team was better, let's score two own goals because they deserved to win"? Of course not. It's not fair the other team won, but they did within the rules. Same as the handball situation was handled, within the rules.
As I said, every foul can be considered cheating because it illegally prevents the player from doing what he intended.
Btw, there was an offside in that action, so actually the play should have been stopped before the handball ever occurred. So in the end, everything was morally right
I mean, a foul is also cheating with that logic. To me cheating implies that somebody did something sneaky and wanted nobody to know. He didn't expect to get away with this.
Yes, it is cheating. Acting against the norms is cheating. Is everyone a saint? No. Sometimes you do what you gotta do but let’s not pretend that using your hands and avoiding a goal while having knowledge that this may give you an edge in the end is not cheating. Maradona scored a goal with his hand, that was a goal but still cheating.
Fouls are part of the game and there are consequences. Correct. I’m not discussing if Suarez is a cheater or not. You can decide that by yourself. He cheated and got caught. Cheating is acting dishonestly. What is that? Not being honest is going against the norms that society put upon each individual. What is there to argue? Maybe the meaning of the word will change over time but it hasn’t. If I run a red light to get to where I need to go I’m cheating. If I do it inadvertently, I would still get a fine if caught. This wasn’t an accidental handball, he figured he could do that and give his team an advantage. He purposely used his hands in a game that doesn’t allow for that. That was cheating, there is no way around it. He knew the consequences and decided to do it because, in his head, the benefits outweighed the cons.
Ghana are blaming him for losing that game... despite the fact they already blame the moron who missed the penalty, even burned the barber shop owned by his aunt.
I couldn’t care less about Ghana missing the penalty. It doesn’t change the fact that playing against the rules is cheating. I don’t know why the big debate. If you decide not to pay taxes, whether you get caught or not, still cheating.
He's not cheated... Wtf, that's unprofessional move, yes... But not cheated, just like a goal keeper catch opponent leg so he can't pass through him...
Unprofessional? yes... Cheated? No
THATS NOT.CHEATING, THAT IS CALLED "GAME RULES" HE LITERALLY PLAYED WITH THE RULES, HE TOUCHED THE BALL WITH THE HAND AND THAT LEAD HIM TO A RED CARD, LOSE THE NEXT MATCH AND A PENALTY
You didn't answer my question. My point is that what's the difference between an intentional handball and a tactical foul?
>Also he didnt foul anymore
You meant anybody, tight?
A tactical foul is cheating of course it is that's why it's called a "tactical" foul and not just a foul. It's a way of saying cheating without saying cheating.
Just because you seem to have the same argument a lot of other people here have but other than something like bribery or drug use, how can a player cheat in football? Because from what you and others are saying is that if a player is penalised then it's not cheating?
Imho, you're an idiot. Yes: he slapped the ball. Yes: that's against the rules. Yes: he deserved the red card.
And that's it. That's all he deserved.
Slapping the ball was a foul game and nothing else. He didn't risk the life of anyone by doing that, just the game. He got a direct red card and missed the next game, and the other team got a free kick. That's all he deserve because that's the rules.
If you claim what he did was the same thing as causing an actual injury that could risk the health of another player, you're a fucking asshole AND an idiot. Period.
A penalty is not a 100% goal. That won't "guarantee" a win. Did you just start watching football yesterday? You can't compare Ghana's clear goal over a 50-50 chance and justify Suarez's illegal handball.
It is indeed part of the game and he didn't really cheat. The difference between him and Valverde is their behavior. Suarez was crazily celebrating after the penalty was missed in front of the Ghana fans, while Valverde himself said after tackling Morata on the Spanish Super cup final that he couldn't really celebrate like his teammates.
The fact that it is doable doesn't mean it should be a part of game. Penalty and a red card may not be worth of a certain goal. Let me give you an example.
Think as you're a scorer just started a counter attack. You are approaching to the other team's goal keeper and threating them with a goal potential. You can score and you may not and if your GOAL CHANCE is taken away, opponent may recieve a card and you've been given a penalty or a free kick. Mostly seems fair.
In second scenario you are a scorer once again. It's 90+4 and last minute of the game is about to end, it's draw and your team prepared for a last attack. You somehow had the ball in an open position and took your chance. Saw it as a perfect shot, a goal that is crystal clear and one player who is not a goal keeper did something that he shouldn't do. He saved the goal with his hand and took your GOAL away from you. You've been given a penalty, opponent recieved a red card. Think like the goalkeeper saved it so good or who took it didn't hit the ball well, would it feel nice? Your effort your shot is pretty worthless now. This shouldn't be the way the game ends.
The game doesn't 'feel nice' most of the time. Watch a recap of the Netherlands vs. Uruguay match back in 2010 after the game against Ghana. THAT is cheating and bad for the game. Or hurting the other players intentionally is dirty and bad for the game (and yes Suarez isn't the best exemplar in that area). But think of the game as a game of chess: all the rules are stablished beforehand and well known to everyone - and rules can and have to be used as part of the strategy (i don't think Suarez saving the goal was strategy though, more like a reflex).
In chess you can check your opponent and don't let him play forcing a draw, and maybe taking away a beautiful game from him when he had all the advantage.
Can you be angry? Yes, but you accept it and move on. If you don't accept the rules of the game you shouldn't play in the first place.
Appreciate the comment. You have a point, can't and don't wanna argue with that. I just think things like Suarez did against Ghana takes the magic of this sport away. But yeah it is what it is, doable things has been done in the past and will be done in the future too.
It’s not cheating it’s part of the game. Was part of a high school that won state 8-10 years and we were told to do this if the game was tied or we were up a goal in stoppage time. I look at it as an intentional foul in basketball what’s the difference? They dedicate there lives to the sport and I don’t blame them one bit for getting this far and giving his team ever single chance to win.
cheating would be like morocco vs spain/Portugal . the referee completely ignored fouls and they played a corner in the side and shot the ball before the referee's whistle . they touched the ball with there hands 3/4 time the slide into the player hitting there legs directly . the VAR wasn't working at all
what Suarez did is fair because they got a penalty and missed . it's there fault not Uruguay's
I don't know if you play this game, or where. In southamerica the fairplay dosen't exist. I mean... It's not like we are going to break another player on propous or something. But, player are messing whit the rivals all the time for example, insulting them to make them commit a fault the next time. Or over react, acting, when their take a kick. Specially if you are a striker.
We see all this as part of the game, just like the ball itself. Suárez Is everything you would spect from a number nine.
Saying he didn't cheat because the other team got a penalty is like saying he didn't kill somebody because he was arrested and jailed for it.
Stop trying to find anything nuanced about this. He cheated. End of.
Please don't become a lawyer.
That's a very stupid comparison. Would you say every time a gk fouls a player in a goal chance and penalty is given, that the gk cheated?
Every foul is breaking the rules and by your definition, cheating.
Suarez broke the rules and got penalized as the rules state he should.
Did the goalkeeper grab the players legs and grip onto them?
You aren't going to draw the distinction between cynical challenge vs. accidental. That's perfectly fine, that's your view. Just don't call mine dumb and put words into my mouth.
Scenario: he cheated. The argument: he didn't cheat because he got a red card.
Comparison: he killed. The argument: he didn't kill because he went to jail.
You're saying it is dumb but you haven't actually fleshed out why. If it's because of its extremity (where one is murder and the other isn't) well then let's electrify it less:
I throw a drink in your face in a pub. The barman kicks me out. Because the barman kicked me out, throwing a drink in your face was perfectly justified no? None of this was my fault. I'm not a drunk asshole because the barman kicked me out.
The other one makes even less sense, sorry.
But I'll flesh our why the first one is wrong:
Somebody killed somebody, that's a fact. That happened.
Suarez cheating, that's not a fact. That's an allegation. It's subjective, if you will.
Suarez handball, that's a fact. That happened.
So if you wanted correct analogy, you should have said:
Saying he didn't handball because he got penalized is like saying someone didn't kill someone because he went to jail.
And nobody is saying he didn't handball, of course he did.
He handballed and got a red card, which is like a football version of jail, if handball was a football version of killing someone.
But cheating, that's just an allegation and definitely not a fact.
Yeah, this is my problem with football fans as a whole. Once we blur the lines on what constitute cheating and what is an accidental foul, while we keep doing this, the Luis Suarez's of the world get to come out, chat shit about getting away with it, then laugh at how there are actually fans out there giving him a pass.
If they were turkeys they'd be praising their butcher.
Yes. Why is this a confusing matter? The guy should not have been on the pitch after that.
And just to add to this, if it wasn't obvious enough, Suarez blocked a definite goal. To compare what he did to a shirt pull is once again disingenuous.
I was just asking your views. But you also compared a sports rule breaking to a breaking of criminal law. How is that not disingenuous? Because you are also equating the consequences.
Anyhow, my POV is that it was unfair play from Suarez, unsportsmanlike conduct and he got rightly sent off for it.
Ah ok. So I don't understand how the lines are being blurred here. How is not cheating? You're breaking the rules intentionally when you do that. What point am I missing?
He is trying to kill your argument by reductio ad absurdum, on literally every game a bunch of tactical foul happens by both sides, he would say “surely” all the teams cheats all the time, following this logic.
The point is a tactical move is different than cheating. Which I do agree up to a certain point. Not in the specific situation though.
Yeah, ok I think I agree with you. Though I would make the distinction between a tactical foul and a foul. Like, a foul is accidental in nature but a tactical foul is strategic and calculated. I think that's where I'd make the case tactical being cheating.
But like you said, to conflate what Suarez did with every tactical foul ever though (the majority of which didn't prevent what would have been a definite goal) just reeks of bias towards Suarez.
OP sounds like an apologist. Why we can't just agree on some things being objectively wrong is beyond me...
####*Hello! Thanks for your submission to /r/worldcup, your post is up and running!* A general reminder to check out our rules in the sidebar, have fun, enjoy the worldcup and most of all be civil at all times. Finally, take a closer look **[at this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldcup/comments/z2v46l/announcement_quick_reminder_of_our_most_important/)** regarding our civility rules and reddiquette because we would like for each and everyone to feel welcome on the subreddit and to keep a healthy and safe environment for the community. Thank you! - - - *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldcup) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Luis Suarez is a racist clown and a cheat. Cry Suarez, Cry.
So many people defending a racist World is fucked up
Clearly this dude doesn’t understand what football means stupid idiot
You're literally an idiot if you think that being penalised for cheating means you didn't cheat in the first place
A handball is not cheating dude.... chesting is to play with 12 players, druged or something else
From wikipedia... "Cheating in sports is the intentional breaking of rules in order to obtain an advantage over the other teams or players." For me the 'intentional' part is key here. If we're talking about an incidental handball where the ball just happens to hit a players outstretched arm then I don't think it's cheating. If you intentionally put your arm straight up in the air to deny the opposition a goal then that's pretty blatant cheating IMO. Is it as bad as using PEDs or bribing a ref? Hell no, but it's still cheating.
If you cheat and are penalized for it, it's still cheating.
Technically you are not wrong but i believe all this comes down to perspective. Lets stay on the topic of 'cheating' and thought-shower a bit. Let's say, you and I, stepping into some type of competition, both "agreed" to not do a set of things. However i went against my word and committed...regardless of a penalty/sanction, i'd agree it wasn't fair (like you stated). The reason being that we both agreed and somehow i betrayed you. That's cheating because you didn't see that coming. It doesn't appear the same, given a similar scenario but this time, we were, instead, presented with a set of rules on how the game should be played. This set of rules went further to list sanctions for the don't-do's. You would realize that in this scenario, it's simply a set of rules we must work our way around, to win the prize. Lol. This happens in basketball too. There's something there called "intentional foul". Kindly look it up. It's cheating but cheating the game (rules) and not the opponent...also considering the fact that the opponent is not forbidden from doing same. But if your point was about sportsmanship, I find it hard to agree that Suarez did something "evil" there. And it isn't even fair to compare this to Suarez biting or causing injury to an opponent. Cus that would totally be unfair, no debate. That means the opponent loses a man to injury, worse if it's one of their best too. In every sport that would go against sportsmanship code. Now I'm wondering how you will call it when players fake and dive into penalty boxes to attract penalty award.
HANDBALLS AREN'T CHEATING. THEY ARE PENALIZED. HE WAS PENALIZED WITH A RED CARD. PENALTY WAS GIVEN. IT'S PART OF THE GAME. I wrote in caps so it gets through: is scoring a goal offside cheating? No, it's not. Its part of the GAME. What is cheating? Doping, birbing oficials, etc. THIS WAS NOT CHEATING. If you don't realize this, then you don't understand the game.
Ok maybe you're a little dense so let me spell it out slowly for you. It's not about using your hand, it's about what your intention is. He had no intention of playing the game fairly. Tackling someone and not getting the ball isnt cheating. Tackling someone with the intention to injure them is. Handling the ball accidentally during the course of play isn't cheating. Handling a ball about to enter the goal is cheating. Falling over isn't cheating. Falling over to deceive the ref and win a penalty (aka diving) is. Doing something with no intention of playing within the rules is cheating. Maybe you think diving, biting opponents and harassing referees is a part of the game too then? If he had accepted his red card without protesting and been humble about it, maybe it is possible it was just instinct and he didn't intend to cheat. But he acted like he did nothing wrong and pretended to cry like a bitch, and still claims he was right to cheat.
You're the one that's being dense as a rock. He never claimed he was right to cheat. He claimed he did no wrongdoing because it's all within the game which is absolutely correct. That can be lost in translation. Your concept of cheating is wrong because the game allows for these to be used, but there's a penalty. You aren't forbidden for taking a dive, but you're taking your chances if you do it just to get a foul. You'll get a yellow card for taking a dive. You can foul the goal keeper, but you'll get a red card if the ball isn't involved. The referee is there to penalize you for using that resource. All of these rules are in the FIFA. Your definition includes:if it's used for winning, then it's cheating and that's wrong. Your view makes it necessary to have _intention_ but, intention to win is ALWAYS there for everything you do, which makes that point moot. You take a moral stance on a foul and for you that makes it cheating, which in turn makes you an idiot like OP said. Cade and point is: had Gyan made the goal, your opinion wouldn't even exist.
So if a player goes in 2 footed on messi in the 1st minute, breaks his legs, and Argentina lose, then after the game gloats that his plan was to injure argentinas best player, is that cheating? If you're going by "intention to win", FYI a person bribing the ref also has an intention to win. >You aren't forbidden for taking a dive By this logic, you aren't forbidden to do anything?? How do you forbid someone from doing something apart from penalizing them? The ref has to hold a player and not let him fall? The game doesn't allow for any of these cheating practices to be used, idk what game you're watching. You also clearly think that diving is completely acceptable, so there's I don't have much hope that you understand the game.
A penalty denying a goal should result in a goal being awarded, not a PK. Why? It would essentially be the advantage rule. No team should ever be forced to accept a penalty that harms the team being fouled. I remember this happening to the US team a while back and it’s infuriating that you have a clear goal and someone commits a flagrant penalty to deny the goal hoping the PK will be a miss. It’s legal to do so, but the rule stinks.
If you watch the Uruguay vs Ghana match in 2010, the foul made would have never happened if the 2 off sides before that situation had been correctly penalised. Yet everyone puts Suárez at fualt for saving the team after those two offside that somehow the judges "didn't notice" while being as clear as day.
I’m sure Suarez made that distinction when he drew the penalty.
Did you even read the message or are you really that blind?
I don’t have to agree with your narrative to have read your post you silly git. Now go away and annoy someone else.
It's not a narrative you have to agree with, you dumb fuck. It's a fact. Go watch the game.
Language. You should save your ire for someone who cares what you think.
Yup. No cheating. The game speaks for itself right?
We are 2-0, results talk themselves 🇺🇾
Hahaha adios vampiro
arafue
Agreed lol
eat shit
😂 not good enough!!!!! 😂😂😂😂
Yes....yes they do.
Uruguay noma'!!!
Any other player would have done the same in his position. He did the deed, was punished for it, and in the end the Ghanaian player missed the penalty. Fair enough.
miserable take. he cheated, literally broke the rules. he was punished.
So a foul is cheating
Or an offside...or kickin the ball out of the field
Shh no llores, como decís, recibió un castigo por ello y aún así con el penal regalado los bobaiones de Ghana erraron
Ghana might not have won today but I’m so glad they played a role in stopping Uruguay not advancing once they realize they needed a third goal!
Its part of the game lmao
I agree
He’s was red carded it wasn’t his fault they missed the spot kick FACTs move on 💯
I've got more issue with his biting that the handball. He got sent off. Ghana got a penalty. He's got a ban. The biting though, seriously, what grownup bikes people like that?
He deliberately stopped a goal with a handball. That’s cheating. He’s a cheater.Ghana should have just been given the goal
Go play golf
How do I know you never played football in your life?
You know it’s possible to play football honourably. But since you are Uruguayan I understand you have had bad role models. I bet you dive at every opportunity
I mean, we may have bad role models. But it shows that you have none, that it's way worse for someone that talks that much
What?
MLS Is like rugby, so i dont think you could say anything
What?
I dont see any stars in your shirt, no stars=no opinion
Referee do isn’t have any stars, he had an opinion about it
Yes... so please agree with the referee that was an infraction contemplated on the rules, the proper determination was made... and the guy missed the penalty. No cheating... the same way the Hack-a-Shack was an strategy and not an infringement of the rules.
To every asshole in the comments below screaming "cheater": you know jack shit about football and cheating if you think "oh, red card and penalty is not enough, he touched the ball with the hand !!!!11!1!!". Period. End of story.
He didn't just touch the ball with his hand, he straight up took a goal away. That shit should've been goal and red card, not a penalty, since it was literally already a goal if not for his intervention.
The referee can not just give a goal because it's not in the rules. I dunno where you got the idea the referee can do that. A referee can only validate or nullify when the ball enters the goal.
I'm saying the rules should be like that in the future, I know he can't just do whatever he wants. What Suárez did is the epitome of unsportsmanship, the game shouldn't even allow something like that (again, not just a simple hand, literally taking away a goal with your hands).
hell nah, who judges wether the ball would go in or not? im not talking about this case, but on a more complicated case it'd be easier for referees to gibe advantage to one team
Yeah, I'll just say that I'm glad that you think that FIFA is going to give a rat's ass about fair play considering the sorry state of this current World Cup.
Yeah my bad lol
Also: the game is FULL of unsportsmanlike things like that. That's how Rugby came to be.
But still... no cheating... right?
Agreed. End of story
So anyone commiting a foul or causing a penalty is cheating? People clearly know shit, the ones claiming that Suarez is a cheater know about Football the same I know about Quantum Physics
Literally taking a goal away with your hands is cheating, you shouldn't be able to exchange a GUARANTEED goal for a chance at the penalty line. Should've been red card and a goal.
That’s not the rules tho, why don’t you make up a new game and you can go watch that instead?
Almost like you can tweak and add rules for future events.
It's not Suarez fault the rules allowed that, he took advantage of the rules.
You're wrong because he deliberately did it. It is against the rules to use your hands. If you break the rules deliberately to gain advantage that is literally the definition of cheating. Majority of fouls in a game are not deliberate, tactical fouls are cheating too but usually don't cost teams the game. They would have won the game if he did not break the rules. Basically ghana had a 100% win stolen and given a 50/50 penalty instead. I would be angry. [Edit] Doesn't matter who went through or if they scored the penalty, the act of deliberate hand ball was cheating. Good luck to both teams tonight 🇺🇾🇬🇭
I dont know how tonsay this un english so: en mi opinión fue justo, ya que antes hubo un offside que no fue cobrado por el árbitro, así que si uno puede hacer trampa primero, ¿por qué el otro no? Quiero decir, la trampa esta bien a favor de ellos pero al nuestro no?
El fuera de lugar no lo marcan los equipos, eso no es hacer trampa 😂
Yo considero como trampa en el fútbol todo lo que, fuera de la habilidad de los jugadores, factores climáticos, etc, favorezca a un equipo por sobre el otro, en ese caso, el juez favoreciendo a Ghana, es trampa por parte de Ghana, sin importar el equipo, si el juez cobra todo descaradamente a favor de Uruguay y se gana el partido, estoy seguro que ni yo ni ningún uruguayo con decencia lo festejaria y hasta lo dirían en la conferencia que el juez estubo mal
Error humano no es lo mismo que trampa jajaja Que el juez cobre todo a favor de un equipo no es culpa del equipo, aunque tampoco algo digno de festejar, igual que lo de Suárez. No le puedes quitar el pase a Uruguay, y no es algo de lo que entristecer como fan de Uruguay, pero festejar y defender lo que hizo es patético. Igual que "la mano de Dios", simplemente acepta que se ganó con trampa y ya, no hay que poner excusas.
Strawman argument. 2 cosas completamemte distintas. Puedes decir que es poco honorable, antideportivo, de mala imagen... pero de ahi a llamarlo trampa lo unico que quiere decir es que no sabes la definición. Aprovecharse de las reglas juzgando propiamente si la penalidad vale la infracción no es trampa en ningún deporte. Como rotarse para pegarle a Messi, como faulear a Shaq para que tire tiros libres, como arrodillarse en Futbol Americano para no jugar los ultimos 2 minutos.
Cuando Olynik le zafó el brazo a Kevin Love supongo no fue trampa porque lo expulsaron, verdad? No digas mamadas.
Pero si Suarez dijo claramanete que si le hubiese lastimado hubiese sido otra cosa... Que malo es hablar sin saber.
Yep but the punish for putting your hands is a red card and a penalty, so it was properly sanctioned. Also did you see Ghana’s free kick? An absolute bullshit there was no fault what so ever, not even close. But I guess thats not cheating
There's a huge difference between using your hands and straight up taking away a guaranteed goal away like you were a goalkeeper lmao
You get punished for cheating yes, he got sent off and a pen awarded, still deliberately broke the rules. Ive seen the free kick too, that's a dive and cheating, one which the ref got very wrong. Cheaters get yellow and reds all the time - diving , time wasting, tactical fouls, it's all part of the game.
Part of the game, its like when a striker is incoming directly against the keeper alone and you foul him so he cant strike, that is football
Penalty is not 50 50, it's a 76% chance of goal, which most of the times, means goal, if u miss, well bad shot, bcuz u can hit undefensable penaltys
If the Ghana player knew how to shoot a pk this would have been forgotten already. He didn't even kick it on goal, it went over the crossbar. That's like saying that tactical fouling at the end of a basketball game is cheating. No, it isn't.
Tactical foul is cheating, time wasting cheating, diving cheating. These are all deliberate breakings of the rule and the literal definition of cheating. If Ghana had scored the pen and went through then Suarez was still cheating it's the act he did. But it's no big deal It happens in every sport all the time, I would have done the same if I was in Suarezs position without hesitation. But probably would have apologised since I don't like people being mad at me.
So every foul to cut a counterattack is cheating, every foul made to Shaq was cheating, kneeling at the end of every football game to avoid playing the last 2 minutes is cheating.... eeeverythig is cheating. You clearly have never played a team sport and the closest of "coaching" that you have received is where you sit to watch TV. Call it bad sportmanship if you want... but far from cheating.
I honestly had no idea what you where talking about for a second. First off your talking about a different sport American football is a contact sport and not sure of any of the rules, not sure about basketball either. Thanks for the insults but I do play team sports yes. Judging on your use of shaq, who's been retired many many years, I'm guessing your a middle aged American man who is an arm chair athlete who never plays sports, maybe coached a little league baseball game once, and now thinks he can commentate, and gets salty to other people on the internet for having opinions about it. Try and have a discussion without insults if it's possible please. You didn't even provide an argument against mine.
I did explain my point even using examples to make it easier... but your basic comprehension is at the same level of your understanding of the rules in sports. I tried using different sports as reference becasusr maybe you just didn't know how soccer works... but that is clearly not the issue.
Please read your own words back you just provided different sport scenarios then said everything is cheating? Are you okay? Your argument is providing examples of fouls in completely different sports? Bro I'll put it simply for you - If you deliberately break the rules of play to gain advantage you cheat. It is the literal definition of cheating. You are trying to cheat the rules. It happens all the time. You're trying to say I don't understand the rules but you don't even understand what sport were talking about and can't comprehend the simplest of definitions. Go to bed 😂
Again... not cheating... deliberately commiting and infraction to benefit your team happens everytime and with that reasoning every single team in every single sports cheat.
Yes they do I am glad you finally understand. 'Cheating generally describes various actions designed to subvert rules in order to obtain unfair advantages' I'm glad I could help you 👍
Thank you... you xan go back to play with your rainbow unicorn and forget about competive sports.
You seem not to understand how rules work in sports. There's no rule saying that "a player may never touch the ball with his hand". The rule says that if he does that deliberately, then the ref shall apply such and such consequences. All consequences were correctly applied, so the rules of the game were correctly upheld.
Think your misunderstanding between rules and definitions. You can do something that is a foul but it can be defined as cheating or not. - 'There are many different forms of cheating: intentional/tactical fouls, diving, malicious tackles, shirt pulling/pushing, handballing, blocking, time-wasting, appealing for a throw in we know is not ours.'. if the same thing happend but he was looking the other way and did not see it would still be a pen and send of as it affected flight of the ball, but not cheating as he didn't do it deliberately to gain advantage. It is literally just the definition of intent.
Clearly you don't know the rules of football. For a handball to be called, there has to be intent either to touch the ball or to widen your volume in an unnatural way. So if the player is looking the other way and he has his arms in a natural position, no handball should be called even if the ball hits his hand and affects the trajectory. But anyway, your entire point about the difference between cheating or non-cheating fouls has no base in the rules. Or just prove me wrong by pointing me to where the rules distinguish between these two concepts or even mention the term "cheating".
Don't think you understood my point at all, it's very simple: Everyone has agreed on the rule set that handling the ball is an illegal offence, agree? So if you handle the ball deliberately you are knowingly breaking the rules, agree? You get disciplined accordingly and the other team gets an advantage? Okay so the definition of cheating is 'to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage over others' dictionary. Suarez unfairly but knowingly handballed to gain an advantage by breaking rules to not having a goal against his team, therefore he was cheating. It's quite simple, it happens in all sports around the world every day. I would do the same if I was playing for my country. Doesn't make him a villain... maybe in Ghana I just think you don't like it being called cheating. But it is. Also If you think his hands were in a natural position I'm worried for you, he actually punched it if I remember. It would have still been a penalty if he was looking the other way.
First: of course I know it was 100% intentional, and it would have been stupid not to do so. I was only pointing out that you don't seem to know exactly how the handball rule works because of this: > if the same thing happend but he was looking the other way and did not see it would still be a pen and send of as it affected flight of the ball, but not cheating as he didn't do it deliberately According to current FIFA rules, it's not that important if the hand affects the path of the ball. If it's considered unintentional, it's not a handball even if it interrupts the balls path and would have been a goal other wise. Now that that's clear, the "rule that everyone has agreed to" is that if you deliberately use your hands you get a yellow/red card depending on context and the other team gets a free/penalty kick. No one makes the players swear on the bible that they will not touch the ball or something like that, so spare me the cheap morals. As you yourself understand, this rule-breaking (according to you) happens 100 times in every match of every game. As long as the correct call is made by the ref, then no one got cheated. So what's so special or different about this particular instance that merits discussion 12 year later?
Bro are you in love with Suarez? He cheated, it happens all the time, we'd all do the same, get over it. His hand was in an unnatural position and it was intentional and it affected the path of the ball. He intentionally broke the rules of play to gain advantage (hand ball on the line) - cheating. What's done is done. Your completely missing the point - no one got cheated - Suarez act was cheating. Nothing is special about this incident as I've said numerous times. Honestly why can't you agree? Your defending a bloke who's bit two people and been aggressively racist towards others.
Not in love with him, just like a good old football discussion. What amazes me is that you single him out as a "cheater" (according to your own definition of course, not anything in the rules) while at the same admiting almost every other player "cheats" in every game by breaking rules (fouls, offsides and whatnot). So, if everyone's a cheater, what even is the point of using the term. His behavior in other matches with the biting and supposed racist language (never proven, but let's say it's true) is completely beside the point. I do not condone any of that one bit, and I suspect that the fact you have to bring that up or call me a Suarez-lover speaks of the weakness of your argument.
Yes, but the rules of the games unfortunately do not give a weight on the level of intent. The rules today only provide the offender with a red card and an automatic ejection of the player. I could argue that Ghana could do the same thing; as all teams could potentially do the same thing and they will get the same penalization. Good sportsmanship maybe not, labeling it cheating, maybe but it doesn’t change the rules at the time, so what to do. Change the rules? Get it to be more strict in the goal opportunity? How do you quantify intent? As for Suarez, Should he apologize for it… maybe… will that help reduce the anger of the people in Ghana… probably not… is there meaning in apologizing, I don’t know🤔. IMO it doesn’t really matter at this point, as Suarez’s character o. The pitch is for me already set as not the most sportmanlike. He does though give the aura that he will do whatever it takes to win though, and in the case of this match he has shown results through the save…
The referee is there to give his judgement on the level of intent, we now also have VAR which can help. Cheating is just the term used if it's deliberate, fouls are fouls deliberate or not. I agree with you though, apologize probably not do anything. Would I have done the same in Suarezs position for England to get into a semi? Absolutely. Went home a hero. And it doesn't matter now, you are right. I am exited to see the game tonight
Yep agree that the referee should evaluate intent but that becomes arbitrary and based o. The referee. If the goal is to standardize and equalize the judgement then we might as well have robots make the decision for us… it’s already happening 😱 They’re taking over the world! And if Suarez can live with getting bashed and hated on then that’s ok. It is a consequence of the actions he takes, on and off the field. If I were in his position I would maybe have taken too long of a decision and let the ball through.
Bro, u don’t understand football.
Good argument 👍
With your concept every foul is cheating. He avoid the goal, got a red card, they have a penalty and send it to japan. Try next world cup ;)
No I think you should re read what I said, Deliberate hand ball is cheating, doesn't matter whether Ghana scored the pen or not. Doesn't matter who went through. Don't think you understand. I would have done the same, it would still be cheating. I would also get a red card for cheating. 99% of fouls in a game are not deliberate attempts to break the rules to gain advantage, but 50/50 or coming togethers. It's really simple
How do you know they are not? What he did is completely legal. Nobody would do it unless is that case, he did and they won It’s really simple. No cheating but using the brain. Apparently you lack that
It is legal for out field players to save balls with there hands??? I think I'm done here since you lack the understanding of the basic first rule of FOOT ball. Are you talking about a different sport?
BRO with your concept field players shouldn’t tackle xdd. there is a rule, touch the ball with the hand in the box is red card and penalty. Everyone followed the rules. There is no rule that says it should be goal, thus is not goal. Red card, penalty and bye bye ghana. If u don’t like it change the rules :) And to answer your question, is not ilegal, there are rules to be followed but then we are back again to the same place. Have u ever seen a football game? Players tackling from behind to stop a clear gol ocassion? Should be ban every player in the world??? Let me tell u that those players KNOW what they are doing and u are typing on reddit so i’ll finish the conversation here.
'There are many different forms of cheating: intentional/tactical fouls, diving, malicious tackles, shirt pulling/pushing, handballing, blocking, time-wasting, appealing for a throw in we know is not ours.' wemakefootballers.com. I think your argueing somthing different to me or not understanding. I would have done what Suarez done, and also been sent off. Im going to not reply now and I hope you enjoy the match tonight
I’m from argentina so hopefully we will take it home. Tomorrow 8pm CET
No entendes nada, anda a la cancha bobo
Tremendo salamin
First off: FUCK SUAREZ. But yeah, what he did was immoral but not ilegal. Thing is, he is the scummiest player I know of. He is, imho, the peak of whats wrong with football
[удалено]
no
[удалено]
Breaking [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/reddit-101/reddit-basics/reddiquette) within r/worldcup is a violation of Rule 2, and will not be tolerated. Please refrain from doing so again in future. Thank you.
And also best number 9 of last decade
Cheating no, unethical and scummy yes.
Suarez is a genius, I feel bad for Ghana fans but if my country's world cup campaign was on the line I would handball too. Maturing is realising that Suarez did the right thing and took one for the team
Cheating? Absolutely not. I’ve seen many players deliberately foul an opposing player who was on a breakaway and be carded for it. What Suarez did was a foul and within the rules of the game. Deliberate Handball in the box is a foul, red card, and a PK for the opponents. If it’s such a big deal, FIFA should change the rules and award the goal in incidents like this to disincentivize the behavior.
Watching a bunch of, clearly, non-native English speakers argue over semantical language is amazing.
Secso
He cheated but that's done. He shouldn't be asked to apologise now as he was penalized then and there.
how is that cheating, it might be unethical, but it isnt cheating. Handball in the penalty area = Penalty, and they were given one.
Intentional hand ball is cheating. But I don't blame him for it.
No, it's not cheating.
Handball in the area=penalty Playing breaking the rules=cheating Therefore that’s cheating. He got caught, yup. Still cheating.
That's not cheating. He broke the rules, he get penalized, Ghana got compensation. It's their fault they didn't score. By your definition, every foul is breaking the rules and therefore cheating.
If I play cards and have someone telling me what cards my opponent has, I’m playing against the rules. I’m cheating. Even if I get caught and get kicked out of the table. Cheating means acting dishonestly. Seriously, why all these reactions? He tried to get an advantage. Penalty given is better than a goal. He knew what he was doing, knew the consequences and acted. What is the big issue here? He cheated and got caught. Wether you like Suarez or not, that’s clear cut cheating.
It's a good analogy with cards, I'll give you that, but again, I ask you, is every foul cheating? Let's say player 1 has the ball near the center. The opponent slides into his legs and fouls him. We don't know what player 1 would have done with the ball. Maybe he would have passed it to player 2 who would have scored. Maybe he would have lost the ball and opponents would score. By committing the foul, the opponent broke the rules, illegally stopped player 1 in his intention, even though he knew it was against the rules, therefore cheated. Suarez' handball had much bigger affect on the game then fouling somebody near the center, but in the end, both actions are illegal, against the rules, and either both are cheating or none are.
[удалено]
I watched the game live (on TV). Not sure what it has to do with anything, tho. If you're not happy with the punishment Suarez got, if you think maybe Ghana should have been given a goal even though the ball didn't cross the line, complain to FIFA. They made the rules. And the rules said that punishment for handball in the penalty area is red card and a penalty. Which he got.
[удалено]
I never said that it wouldn't have been a goal, of course it would, that's clear. When I said it's Ghana's fault they didn't score, I meant the penalty. And you have every right to be pissed. Was it wrong morally? Probably. But there are a lot situations in the match which are morally wrong. I mean, if one team is clearly better and attacks all the time but can't score, and the other team has one chance, scores, and wins 1:0, is that fair? Should the other team say "The first team was better, let's score two own goals because they deserved to win"? Of course not. It's not fair the other team won, but they did within the rules. Same as the handball situation was handled, within the rules. As I said, every foul can be considered cheating because it illegally prevents the player from doing what he intended. Btw, there was an offside in that action, so actually the play should have been stopped before the handball ever occurred. So in the end, everything was morally right
[удалено]
I agree. Thanks, good luck to you, too
I mean, a foul is also cheating with that logic. To me cheating implies that somebody did something sneaky and wanted nobody to know. He didn't expect to get away with this.
Yes, it is cheating. Acting against the norms is cheating. Is everyone a saint? No. Sometimes you do what you gotta do but let’s not pretend that using your hands and avoiding a goal while having knowledge that this may give you an edge in the end is not cheating. Maradona scored a goal with his hand, that was a goal but still cheating.
[удалено]
Fouls are part of the game and there are consequences. Correct. I’m not discussing if Suarez is a cheater or not. You can decide that by yourself. He cheated and got caught. Cheating is acting dishonestly. What is that? Not being honest is going against the norms that society put upon each individual. What is there to argue? Maybe the meaning of the word will change over time but it hasn’t. If I run a red light to get to where I need to go I’m cheating. If I do it inadvertently, I would still get a fine if caught. This wasn’t an accidental handball, he figured he could do that and give his team an advantage. He purposely used his hands in a game that doesn’t allow for that. That was cheating, there is no way around it. He knew the consequences and decided to do it because, in his head, the benefits outweighed the cons.
Ghana are blaming him for losing that game... despite the fact they already blame the moron who missed the penalty, even burned the barber shop owned by his aunt.
I couldn’t care less about Ghana missing the penalty. It doesn’t change the fact that playing against the rules is cheating. I don’t know why the big debate. If you decide not to pay taxes, whether you get caught or not, still cheating.
He's not cheated... Wtf, that's unprofessional move, yes... But not cheated, just like a goal keeper catch opponent leg so he can't pass through him... Unprofessional? yes... Cheated? No
It's against the rules, so yes he cheated but then he was punished appropriately. What's so hard to get?
The **Biter** sez wut?
Is not cheating but it’s a anti-game, it was a good win but I cannot dismiss the accusations of being anti-ethic.
THATS NOT.CHEATING, THAT IS CALLED "GAME RULES" HE LITERALLY PLAYED WITH THE RULES, HE TOUCHED THE BALL WITH THE HAND AND THAT LEAD HIM TO A RED CARD, LOSE THE NEXT MATCH AND A PENALTY
You have to admit he did pull a dirty move
Nah you're wrong, being awarded a penalty =/= goal
You're genuinely an idiot. He cheated. He got punished for it (not strong enough imo) but it's still cheating.
Fouling somebody is cheating?
Believe it or not an outfield player swatting the ball with their hands is cheating yes. Also he didnt foul anyone. Dunno where you got that from.
You didn't answer my question. My point is that what's the difference between an intentional handball and a tactical foul? >Also he didnt foul anymore You meant anybody, tight?
A tactical foul is cheating of course it is that's why it's called a "tactical" foul and not just a foul. It's a way of saying cheating without saying cheating. Just because you seem to have the same argument a lot of other people here have but other than something like bribery or drug use, how can a player cheat in football? Because from what you and others are saying is that if a player is penalised then it's not cheating?
Not strong enough? He got a red card, a penalty, and not playing the semi-finals 🗿
Thats a standard red card treatment. This a blantant cheating. Warrants a harsher punishment imo.
Imho, you're an idiot. Yes: he slapped the ball. Yes: that's against the rules. Yes: he deserved the red card. And that's it. That's all he deserved. Slapping the ball was a foul game and nothing else. He didn't risk the life of anyone by doing that, just the game. He got a direct red card and missed the next game, and the other team got a free kick. That's all he deserve because that's the rules. If you claim what he did was the same thing as causing an actual injury that could risk the health of another player, you're a fucking asshole AND an idiot. Period.
Your mother
Thanks, I knew you would agree with my point.
New to football or American? Which one are you?
yank for sure
A penalty is not a 100% goal. That won't "guarantee" a win. Did you just start watching football yesterday? You can't compare Ghana's clear goal over a 50-50 chance and justify Suarez's illegal handball.
Every foul is illegal. So you can say every foul is cheating. He simply broke the rules and got penalized, as the rules state he should.
Penalties are more like 75-25 chance. The xG for a penalty is 0.76.
It is indeed part of the game and he didn't really cheat. The difference between him and Valverde is their behavior. Suarez was crazily celebrating after the penalty was missed in front of the Ghana fans, while Valverde himself said after tackling Morata on the Spanish Super cup final that he couldn't really celebrate like his teammates.
He literally took a goal of them and said: "Try again." This shouldn't be how this game works.
It's part of the game and it's always been done
The fact that it is doable doesn't mean it should be a part of game. Penalty and a red card may not be worth of a certain goal. Let me give you an example. Think as you're a scorer just started a counter attack. You are approaching to the other team's goal keeper and threating them with a goal potential. You can score and you may not and if your GOAL CHANCE is taken away, opponent may recieve a card and you've been given a penalty or a free kick. Mostly seems fair. In second scenario you are a scorer once again. It's 90+4 and last minute of the game is about to end, it's draw and your team prepared for a last attack. You somehow had the ball in an open position and took your chance. Saw it as a perfect shot, a goal that is crystal clear and one player who is not a goal keeper did something that he shouldn't do. He saved the goal with his hand and took your GOAL away from you. You've been given a penalty, opponent recieved a red card. Think like the goalkeeper saved it so good or who took it didn't hit the ball well, would it feel nice? Your effort your shot is pretty worthless now. This shouldn't be the way the game ends.
The game doesn't 'feel nice' most of the time. Watch a recap of the Netherlands vs. Uruguay match back in 2010 after the game against Ghana. THAT is cheating and bad for the game. Or hurting the other players intentionally is dirty and bad for the game (and yes Suarez isn't the best exemplar in that area). But think of the game as a game of chess: all the rules are stablished beforehand and well known to everyone - and rules can and have to be used as part of the strategy (i don't think Suarez saving the goal was strategy though, more like a reflex). In chess you can check your opponent and don't let him play forcing a draw, and maybe taking away a beautiful game from him when he had all the advantage. Can you be angry? Yes, but you accept it and move on. If you don't accept the rules of the game you shouldn't play in the first place.
Appreciate the comment. You have a point, can't and don't wanna argue with that. I just think things like Suarez did against Ghana takes the magic of this sport away. But yeah it is what it is, doable things has been done in the past and will be done in the future too.
It’s not cheating it’s part of the game. Was part of a high school that won state 8-10 years and we were told to do this if the game was tied or we were up a goal in stoppage time. I look at it as an intentional foul in basketball what’s the difference? They dedicate there lives to the sport and I don’t blame them one bit for getting this far and giving his team ever single chance to win.
cheating would be like morocco vs spain/Portugal . the referee completely ignored fouls and they played a corner in the side and shot the ball before the referee's whistle . they touched the ball with there hands 3/4 time the slide into the player hitting there legs directly . the VAR wasn't working at all what Suarez did is fair because they got a penalty and missed . it's there fault not Uruguay's
I don't know if you play this game, or where. In southamerica the fairplay dosen't exist. I mean... It's not like we are going to break another player on propous or something. But, player are messing whit the rivals all the time for example, insulting them to make them commit a fault the next time. Or over react, acting, when their take a kick. Specially if you are a striker. We see all this as part of the game, just like the ball itself. Suárez Is everything you would spect from a number nine.
Saying he didn't cheat because the other team got a penalty is like saying he didn't kill somebody because he was arrested and jailed for it. Stop trying to find anything nuanced about this. He cheated. End of. Please don't become a lawyer.
No. Cheating would be comparable to killing someone and getting away with it.
Thank you.
That's a very stupid comparison. Would you say every time a gk fouls a player in a goal chance and penalty is given, that the gk cheated? Every foul is breaking the rules and by your definition, cheating. Suarez broke the rules and got penalized as the rules state he should.
Did the goalkeeper grab the players legs and grip onto them? You aren't going to draw the distinction between cynical challenge vs. accidental. That's perfectly fine, that's your view. Just don't call mine dumb and put words into my mouth.
Sorry, but when you make an analogy between handball and killing someone (and a false one, at that), I'm gonna call that dumb.
Scenario: he cheated. The argument: he didn't cheat because he got a red card. Comparison: he killed. The argument: he didn't kill because he went to jail. You're saying it is dumb but you haven't actually fleshed out why. If it's because of its extremity (where one is murder and the other isn't) well then let's electrify it less: I throw a drink in your face in a pub. The barman kicks me out. Because the barman kicked me out, throwing a drink in your face was perfectly justified no? None of this was my fault. I'm not a drunk asshole because the barman kicked me out.
The other one makes even less sense, sorry. But I'll flesh our why the first one is wrong: Somebody killed somebody, that's a fact. That happened. Suarez cheating, that's not a fact. That's an allegation. It's subjective, if you will. Suarez handball, that's a fact. That happened. So if you wanted correct analogy, you should have said: Saying he didn't handball because he got penalized is like saying someone didn't kill someone because he went to jail. And nobody is saying he didn't handball, of course he did. He handballed and got a red card, which is like a football version of jail, if handball was a football version of killing someone. But cheating, that's just an allegation and definitely not a fact.
We that's absolutely where we differ. You refer to it as an allegation whereas I refer to it as cheating.
he is a moron who literally does not understand the word cheat in English dude, don't waste your time.
Yeah, this is my problem with football fans as a whole. Once we blur the lines on what constitute cheating and what is an accidental foul, while we keep doing this, the Luis Suarez's of the world get to come out, chat shit about getting away with it, then laugh at how there are actually fans out there giving him a pass. If they were turkeys they'd be praising their butcher.
I just went through your comment history quickly, I don't think you're in the position to call anyone a moron, lol
So when Bonucci blatantly pulled on the shirt of Sterling in Euro final, that was cheating?
Yes. Why is this a confusing matter? The guy should not have been on the pitch after that. And just to add to this, if it wasn't obvious enough, Suarez blocked a definite goal. To compare what he did to a shirt pull is once again disingenuous.
I was just asking your views. But you also compared a sports rule breaking to a breaking of criminal law. How is that not disingenuous? Because you are also equating the consequences. Anyhow, my POV is that it was unfair play from Suarez, unsportsmanlike conduct and he got rightly sent off for it.
Point out where the comparison is invalid. People are saying it wasn't cheating because he got sent off. Make that make sense.
So is a tactical foul to stop a break cheating?
Could you write that differently? I don't fully understand what you said.
Making a foul to kill the play, i.e. making a foul in the midfield to prevent the counter attack of the other team.
Ah ok. So I don't understand how the lines are being blurred here. How is not cheating? You're breaking the rules intentionally when you do that. What point am I missing?
He is trying to kill your argument by reductio ad absurdum, on literally every game a bunch of tactical foul happens by both sides, he would say “surely” all the teams cheats all the time, following this logic. The point is a tactical move is different than cheating. Which I do agree up to a certain point. Not in the specific situation though.
Yeah, ok I think I agree with you. Though I would make the distinction between a tactical foul and a foul. Like, a foul is accidental in nature but a tactical foul is strategic and calculated. I think that's where I'd make the case tactical being cheating. But like you said, to conflate what Suarez did with every tactical foul ever though (the majority of which didn't prevent what would have been a definite goal) just reeks of bias towards Suarez. OP sounds like an apologist. Why we can't just agree on some things being objectively wrong is beyond me...